Queen and Drone Viability, Honey Fraud and Apimondia with Dr. Jeff Pettis
Welcome to beekeeping today. Podcast presented by culture beekeeping. Today podcast is your source for beekeeping news information and entertainment. I'm Jeff and I'm Kim. Hey Jeff and Kim. Today's sponsor is global. Patty's family operated business. That manufactures protein supplement patties for honeybees. It's a good time to think about Honeybee. Nutrition feeding your hives. Protein Supplement Paddy's will ensure that they produce strong and healthy colonies by increasing brood production and overall honey flow. Now is a great time to consider what type of Patty is right for your area. And Your honeybees global offers a variety of standard patties as well as custom patties to meet your needs. No matter where you are global is ready to serve you out of their manufacturing plants in Airdrie Alberta and butte Montana or from distribution depots across the continent visit them today at. Www DOT global patties dot com. You Bet we WANNA thank bee. Culture magazine for continuing their presenting sponsorship of this episode be Culture Has Been Magazine for American beekeeping since eighteen seventy three subscribed to be culture today. And while there check out be cultures beekeeping your first three years a quarterly magazine for beginning beekeepers. We also want to thank two million blossoms. Sponsors this episode two million blossoms is a new quarterly magazine dedicated to protecting all pollinator insects wild and manage before they disappear. Magazine is full of beautiful photos and informative articles. You can learn more of an our season two episode nine podcast with editor. Kristen trainer and from visiting. Www two million blossoms dot com and that is with a number two almost. Didn't get through that Kim. Hey it looks like it's finally got northern Latitudes Kinda here. Jeff leaves on trees. The Red Budge are just beginning to pop. Some of the early apples throughout packages came in last week. So I'm worried about them. And and I've got friends in North Carolina that ARP pulling swarms out of trees. So yeah it's spring. Hey both speaking of swarms intrigues. You have friends in the Pacific northwest. We had swarms. I had a swarm last weekend there. Yeah Watch out. This hive and silly hybrid had swarmed in and and the swarm was underneath hanging onto Boorda hanging off the bottom board so swept into a pan and put them in a nuke and check them today and they're just Haman right along there just fat and happy. So mid April is that is that typical swarm time Pacific northwest. I This I've not had them in the individual mid April before the it seems I have to go back and check my notes but in May before swarms but you know what is really interesting not to put a product plug here. But let's just say I had a High Monitoring Abreu minder type product on my hive and I got an alert saying hey you might have had a swarm because noticed a sudden loss of Colony wait outstanding. I thought that was pretty cool. That's pretty cool. So what is it like an alarm? Go off in your phone or something. I gotTA. I received an email said. You're kidding you might know. It was a loss of. They'd lost four pounds. I think alerted triggered dealer and they said and and advice sent you an email. That said maybe pay attention. Jeff you just lost four pounds of yeah go go look out and I said I said you know just just like anybody in the new new world with instruments. I didn't trust my instruments and I said God stupid stupid computer. There's nothing going on out there. It's April it's Pacific northwest. It's been raining. I went out there and by. Golly there was a swarm hanging on the bottom board. You know what you need. Is You need Jerry. Berman shanks device talks to you. You know instead of just giving you a wait and send you an email and you device it just talks to you and says hey get out here guy. Yeah maybe maybe so I did use his guru APP and afterwards. So maybe we'll find out what the bees are talking about after this warm. Hey I'm looking forward to our podcast. Dr Jeff Pettus. You know from way back don't you I do. I've known jeff a long time and It'll be good to talk to him again. We're at eight Monday together. And I saw him. I don't know maybe five hundred yards away and we waved. He was busy busy busy busy busy busy so we didn't get to chat. So it's it'll be good to catch up with him. I haven't talked to quite a while. Well let's let's get right into it. I know he has a lot to talk about well. Dr Jeff Pettus. Welcome to beekeeping today. Podcast you thank you jeff. Good to be here. You and I WanNa thank your parents for what a wonderful name you have. I think redistricting except my my full name is Jeffrey J. F. F. E. R. Y. Only are correct. It's not Jeffrey and it's not free in it yet. So it's Jeff are- over anyway. I'm I I'm the Ra de well. Well we'll just just something throw him off and he won't know which is wholly Jeff. I liked to well it's K-. Im here and Jeff Peres. It's been a while since united had a chance to talk we. I waved at you briefly at the April Monday conference up in Montreal this year and that was as close as we got you. Were running full speed the whole time and it's been a while like I said it's been awhile since we talked. So what have you been up to since you left? Usda well good question. Kim Yeah I did. I remember seeing in Montreal. Montreal was quite quite a busy time quite a good quite a good meeting so I left. Usda in move on to do other things and most people think I retired well. No I didn't retire. I I was active. I had a couple of PAM. Ranz probably tapism grants and I'm still working on some of those also have active grant with Dave Tarbey. Usda grant would. They've CARPI working on Queen Quality. So I'm currently working on. Amateur azure assistants as well Luton. You're looking at whether we have amateurs was justice in the USO still pretty active on the research front. But the Monday a hat that I wear. I was already the president of this Be Health Commission so that beheld commission we cover you know roll mice af be all the things that affect afflict these worldwide and I was head of that for over four years and then this past year in Monday I was elected president and at Espada change a change in what. I'm responsible for stuff like that. So is a new hat. But it's a it's a welcome challenge. I think it's serving beekeepers global mobilink. That's good to hear it's good. I want to go back to your research. Just to start with air. Your we're GONNA with Queen Quality with with Dr Tarpley. How's it going not? Well I know I because we've identified shipping temperatures in Queens ship from quaint producer to the to beekeeper. We've identified Queen Shipping is one of the issues. But there's a lot of other issues McQueen health and stuff so it's only one of the possible problems and I've kind of modelled day or did a prototype obey not an air conditioned shipping container but a small shipping container. That would move air and kind of guarantee the queen's safe arrival but it will take more engineering to do and I'm not sure if the industry needs it and I'm not sure if you know industries ready for it so they There are some issues with Queen Shipping. And then Dave Turkey. We've been working on drone hilts and other issues with pesticides in Queens. So we're just continuing that work and I say it's not going well. It means that Queen is still a major issue for beekeepers around the globe. Anna the longevity of Queens is I know it's not what it used to be I mean people say. How do you know that used to see two and three year queens and we don't see Queen's lasting much more than sixty years to six months to a year now so it's an uphill battle on Queen Health. I think I think you're right there on the meetings that I attend. That's always one of the questions with what's going on with Queen so I think you're working on the right place looking at the looking at the things that need to be looked at well. One thing I'll give I'll get Dave Turkeys lab big plug. They they have what they call a Queen Clinic and several queen. Breeders around the country are using it. So if they've the Queen Breeder wants to know if his or her queens are well-made it in high sperm viability they can ship Queens today harpies lab and he'll analyze it for him. Give them a report on. There's queens and that's been helpful giving feedback. We know that early. Mated Queens sometimes are so good at the midsummer maybe heat stress or whatever so he's able to give feedback and provide some information back to queen about about about what the quality of those Queens produce. So it's a it's ongoing service that he's providing and we're still working together on said some of heat stress issues and also some of the pesticide exposure issues with So if I'M GONNA be buying Queens behoove me to to be talking to the Queen Producer that. I'm working with and say by the way if you run your operations who Tarpley's lab to see if things are going okay. Well it's it's not. I mean you can analyze ten queens and get a pretty good handle on Bajic Timeframe Yonsei of these queens coming out this time of year or really high quality. And you'll give you a score score. Based on all the queen's he's analyzed overtime and say these are eight plus Queens or these are B plus Queens or whatever so yeah it's a it's not a bad idea and what factors of looking at. I mean though scoring on a ship. Queens live McQueen's live. He starts ways the queen which is just a gross measure of you know we always think. Larger Queens are better than that may not always true. He does more for metric measurements also just measuring wings and stuff to see that. There is some of the key measures are he'll do sperm volume. The number of spur. The numbers sperms from Arizona in the sperm. Eka and then the live. Did those two measures so really important. So a a well mated. Queens should have over five million sperm and sometimes I have eight to ten million sperm. If they give below three about three million. They're probably not well made it and the other is the viability. Should be at least eighty five percent are better at the time? And we're seeing some of these. Failing Queens have thirty and forty percent viability. So they're their sperm. Viability is way down in some of these queens been he'd stressed or whatever So yeah he that the sperm volume of the number of sperm and the sperm viability. He also can do virus things like that but the virus numbers I mean. What do we do about viruses? What are we doing? What are we doing currently bias social canceling everything under the Sun? Doing with a corona virus. I know I know gasoline most of my trips. Well that's a question then is is he looking at? Queen's overtime brand new queens queens year old Queens older than that? So we've done we've done some of that. He did a very nice study with I. Can I can say the name. Oliver raise a number. A number beekeepers are really cooperative. So I'm not pointing out raise being exceptional. Although yes but dave went away and said Hey. Can I get some of your queens from the certain batch and then you run them in your production? Look at them over time so look at them over like six to eight months so out of this one mating group. They tested him right then right if they made it and then he put them in production colonies. Ship THEM TODAY. Across the whole season. Well they only lost like less than ten percent viability over that time period so they actually in the colonies. They held up really well so he he's done that. I've done in published some stuff on like become a super reacquainting. Variability was all over the board and then when beekeepers rated the colony is failing versus. Good the queen's in the well-performing colonies had much higher sperm by ability to nose in the failing colonies but but not all failing colonies have have have core made. Cooley made it or or high most firm. I go to Queens so but that's already been published. So yeah no we he. Dave looked at the time series effect. But now we're getting more into drones like making sure that drones are maturing in the Spring and Flight. Time and even pesticide exposure to drones are the drones before they ever meet with the Queen's. Are they in good shape to doing some of that work? And that's going and it's going to produce a pretty interesting picture when when you get some of these things done and also I can see where it's going to educate beekeepers questions to ask and symptoms to look for so that when I started this heat stress stuff about two and a half three years ago. Now it's been maybe more than that and the Queen. Breeders were already aware of heat stress in particular because when it gets so hot they knew you know the shipping in these battery boxes and sometimes a battery boxes overheat that kind of thing. So they're doing a lotta the adding extra water so they were well aware of some of the problems but we were trying to find what was the was the upper and lower limit for safe shipment and we actually think we've arrived at it. It's a ballot and I'll have to give it to you in Centigrade. I'll let you do the conversion I can I can do. The emergent is somewhere between thirty nine and forty degrees. C is the upper limit for equator exposed. To thirty nine to forty degrees centigrade for more than an hour the viability and within her is going to go down if it drops below about. I think it's eight or eight to ten degrees C. So even on the low end eight Tennessee which is about not much below fifty Fahrenheit. Eight to eight to ten degrees centigrade. The sperm viability can be damaged by the cold. We've got an upper limit of thirty nine to forty Centigrade. And we've got a lower limit of eight to ten ten degrees C and that's only an hours worth of exposure so it's really narrow. There's a fairly new window when they're completely safe. We had we had a shimmer. They got cold in July of Kim. It got to eight degrees being shipped in July in the US. So so how did that happen? Not In Ohio. I hope I can be on the air. What we assume it was in the airplane. It was something about when the airplane was at thirty thousand feet. They didn't quite regulate the cargo. Hold well enough and to the only explanation because we also put two thermo couples in every time to make sure we're not getting false reading this tract the same it needs. Yeah is it true reading? Wow eight degrees. Wads cold eight degree. Eight degrees C O Celsius. I think it's about in the low forties. I can't always do the direct conversion sixteen sixteen to sixty one. That's an easy one. That's easy to remember sixteen sixty one and Zeros. Thirty two zero three. That's that's about as good as I get right there. And that's all post-meeting right any any research into pre meeting stresses on the con- viability. I pay another good beekeeper Zach Browning I worked with Browning. He made it a bunch of Queens in California and we follow them and we expose them to ama- trousers in different ways and Ama- traffic's odor surprisingly didn't seem to affect that was actually amateurs treatment to the colony so he raised a bunch of Queens in California and retreated North Dakota when they got there and and that publication is actually fairly recently. Come out just we we. We even treated him with out say Some less than less than legal treatments because we wanted to mimic what the what the what the beekeepers were doing so we use a world the legal strip and we used to other forms of shop. Taliban Greece and use it according to quench common recommendations. And we didn't see an effect on the Queen so we've done that with actually were already made it on. The pre mating is mostly. We've been doing work on the drone side looking. At what what? What can we do to produce good healthy drums and year round because the queen breeders are still trying to read Queens all through the year springtimes easy except early spring early spring. It's hard to get a mature but mid spring on. It's really easy. It's summer that gets really stressful on drones as well so I would think the Post analysis are the Nelson. The Post Mating drones. We thinking it through you know you mentioned Dama Trez Jeff. Doing some other work with amateurs earnt you well. I think amateurs is still uses. Is it not yes so on practice tapes him again? I really good really good outfit Funding a lot of really good practical research they they funded both. Ramesh securely to do some work on amateurs resistance developing an essay or looking at a. Was there resistance in the Pacific northwest and candidate with Shelly Hoover in Alberta and then I was taking a kit that I developed a field that I developed and comparing it to the vet. A Pharma has a little might wash kit. They do and they've adapted it to run an ashtray. They've adapted it to put a little piece of amateurs in there but Li- bs at it and tell whether or not you've got might resistance or not to address so I tested there with with also with input from them. I tested their kit versus the one I developed which is just a A Mason Jar with screen lid. So I ran the two kids side by side. And they're pretty comparable now. The real question is. Is there resistance out there? There are my age that aren't as easily controlled but the question is Wendy. You Call it resistance. And that's that's the question we're still after we don't. I'm not seeing high levels of mice. It can't be controlled. But they're not as easily controlled they have been in the past so the two to compare to put in a little bit into context. We Sell Flu. Validate resistance come it. It came in at about a year year and a half or two. It didn't take long for it to really catch y camouflage resistance happening quicker than that it made. It just came in and you almost couldn't control. The resisted spread really quickly across the country for some reason amateurs they're they're they're partially resistant but the resistance not being fixed. It's not holding and I'm not sure why they did. It must come at a great cost to the Mites or something and so the susceptible. Is it out. There out outnumber so we're still controlling them but there are signs of some level resistance so amateurs is still working at the moment. Are you finding a regional resistant? Pockets of resistance across. I worked in California and Tennessee and on the east coast here along in Maryland on this coast. And I haven't seen anything that I would really call resistance. Ramesh Oregon was comparing his might populations with those Berta and the mite populations in Oregon were harder to killed in the ones in Alberta. But I don't know if you call them resistant or not. And he was getting even getting bs from a lot from California Oregon and Washington state so he was getting a number of beekeepers from the West Coast moving into do all onion and carrot pollination so he was doing cross section about three states. That work is ongoing somewhat. Beeson candidate coming in from New Zealand. Part of it. New Zealand and Chile. Yeah so that may be. It's certainly going to be a factor. That's true they get get get fresh. Okay well you're also keeping bees and keeping a few as here so I moved out of the Washington. Dc Area A high rent district. I was glad to get out of a very crowded is a good place to raise boys a great school system and stuff but I'm on. The eastern shore of Maryland is called. It's Salisbury Maryland is down or halfway between the Chesapeake Bay and the and the and the ladder Gauchan. So we're we're right in the heart of called Delmarva Delaware Maryland and Virginia but as Nice area and my youngest son Kevin and I are keeping somewhere between twenty five and seventy five colonies. Depends on what you're asking me but yeah it's new and I'm trying to develop into a small business for him. So he's he's taken really taken to beekeeping lately. Not Boys did it first but lately Kevin Scott Take into it and we're running a few bees which is nice. It's fun it's Jeff. You mentioned your guitars or an escape with a BS from here. Nicest scape you get had day. Just go out and and work bees and it'll take your mind away from definitely. So what are you what are you doing? What are you doing with the honey? You're making are are you doing any pollination well so yeah we're doing doing a little bit a little bit of pollination they grow a lot of vine crops lot wrong watermelons etc and a lot of beekeepers. Only sure keep bees on trailers. So it's just a a traitor and I was lucky enough to link up with Oliver. Collins is a commercial beekeeper. Here who's downsizing from three thousand to five hundred and bought a few of his trailers and I did a little bit of pollination of blueberries and Pumpkins last year so you put twenty on a trailer you never have to lift them and you just hold the trailer to to the to the field and was done your it back so yeah do a little bit of pollination and mostly honey production and we sell it local markets here so we selling control the whole priceline and which which when we get when we get to April Monday. We'll talk about hunting fraud because that's a major issue facing beekeepers worldwide and. The money is active on that. But I mean the best thing you can do for hunting. Well educate the consumer have the consumer by more directly from the beekeeper. And I know that's not always possible. That's the way it get rid of hunting. Fraud is no. 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Well you you brought up the subject Apron Monday and I know you for the last four plus years you've been you've had some role with them and that just changed but what were you doing with them The last four years or so so I was the president of the Bee Health Commission which we have about five scientific emissions. Be Biology be health of beat products? We work in all different aspects of beekeeping and I was the president of the commission so I work on Barreau and AF. Be All the pests diseases that affect bees and we are you know you know most people. We hold a big meeting every two years. It moves globally around the world and so I was in charge of the scientific program for Health for that art and in this past year Montreal of elected president of the organization so now I'm more doing more every more public relations and more just across the board trying to manage organization and and and help serve me. Here's better well. I'm going to ape. Monday isn't isn't really well known in this country and it's not really well by me. Can you just give me a matchbook? Cover sketch of how it's administered in how the administration works and filters down so and what does it do for me okay. Well that's so. Let me start with a little bit. Just a little bit history. I won't give you the good. Yeah but it started. It started out of Bucharest. `ROMANIA IN THE IN THE O. Soviet Union and. It was solved a publishing house and he was gathering information on. Beekeeping publishing this thing called API and then they started holding this meetings global meeting mostly European based but it was a of called April Monday started. I was in Copenhagen. Denmark thinkers in Denmark About one hundred years ago so then every second year they'd have a big international meeting well international it really was European and then the Americas and some other people started getting all became more international. It's mostly just bringing beekeepers and scientists together to try to talk about common problems and serve the industry. There's a huge trade show goes along with it as a chance for except for beekeepers from all over and scientists from all over to come together and talk for a week about common problems so luckily a you're right in. North America is not as well known but the Canadians have always been involved in April Monday. And they've hosted two and no Ben Cooper and then just recently Montreal but the American honey producers have just and they joined because of our work April. Mondays work on hunting for all. So I have to give a shout out to Norberto Garcia. Who's on our board? And he is active in international honey markets and trying to understand honey fraud and so his honey producers amid honey producers have been after honey fraud and adulteration for a long time. So American hyper. You saw the value in joining Monday. And so we have a common theme there at least in honey frog. Didn't I didn't give you much about the administration. So sorry President vice-president There's an executive secretary and he's in Rome and he kinda runs the day to day operations of the we have about a hundred and twenty to one hundred and thirty full members which are either countries or major organizations within those countries. So we have to represent the majority of beekeepers in a country or or the majority of humidity region of a country so you can be a full member. There's a lot of associate members smaller clubs and things like that. And then and these are producers beekeeper beekeeper organization so we represent workers globally all the different beekeeping organisations but within. Those are the beekeeper themselves. So we're we're the associate the International Association of Beekeepers Associations who we're we're the with a head body that kind of pulls it all together and our our. Our flagship is the meeting every two years. And but with beyond that we host symposia in different parts of the world on specific problems like we just had one in the Philippines about two weeks ago on sting was bees and people do manage stainless little small. Things B.'S. Bruce very small amounts of money with his as medicinal quality. So it's high value. There's even that kind of beekeeping but back to the structures we have President Vice President Executive Secretary and then we have these five to six scientific commissions and we have five regional commission so we have one for the Americas which is North and South America. And we have one for Europe of the East Africa and Australasia. So we we have the regions of the world represented by a by president from that region and not to bring the concerns aloof. People Ford's Monday so anyway it's It's been an organization. It was mostly focused on this meeting over the past so many years and before that it was publishing we were Kim You could probably appreciate that you know being associated beak culture. They publish the act of for a long time. That transform kind of fell out of favor and that we don't we don't do any printing anymore but I'm hoping that we're going to change you. Get better in the information exchange realm where we're doing more just like you're doing here digitally and with video streaming of so our conference information. That was what I in my goal for the Organization. I talked about three. Things was diversity. Diversity of the beekeepers the types of beekeepers in the types of bees. We keep so from APIS. Melissa distinguised Beasley just different kinds of bees and the diversity of types of beekeeping Very traditional beekeeping log hives all the way up to modern mechanized beekeeping and then communication at talked about having our meeting. Part of our meeting streamed so that people don't have to go to the meeting. You know and be there in person. They can stream it from you know from Ireland or from Africa and be involved in the meeting and I didn't realize that we were about to be hit by a disruption to world to world trade and commerce but we just had our first Zoom meeting of our executive committee. So I just set it up and we just use zoom to meet across about twelve time zones so but but for the Organization for April Monday and for the meeting. I'm hoping to create more digital content for beekeepers around the world to tune into so that that would be a goal in the last part is just respect for the B.'s. We have to keep the bees themselves are what we're all about keeping good piece anyway. That's a that kind of a long winded a Monday. A sales pitch. But it's a. It's a challenge because beekeepers very all over the globe but we try to represent them all. We try to represent their interest. How often does the board meet so we meet? Every may were year cycle so every may the whole executive meets in Rome on on a non conference year. We meet in Rome conference year. We meet in the city where the meeting is going to occur so last. May We met in Montreal and then we came back in September. We had the meeting so this year. Well this year. We're going to have. This is good this year. We're going to have a virtual meeting in May own zoom and cut down on transportation costs in our carbon footprint. And everything else. So we'll have a virtual meeting in. May the zoom and then hopefully next May will meet in Russia and Ukraine or Russia is who for Russia's site of Twenty Twenty. One are meeting at twenty twenty one so we meet in May there and then the and the following fall we would have the international meeting. So there's about we have thirteen fourteen executive board members and we come together and discuss the business and set the agendas and and work on the scientific programs and things like that for the meeting. Jeff and I normally work mostly at most three time zones. I can't imagine trying to organize twelve so it. Well guess what? Guess what. I'm you're right about north. America has not been as involved in April Mondia. I'm so there's only I'm only one one extreme time zones and the other is Jody Goldsworthy in Australia and she's she was tuning in at ten o'clock and I was tuning in at six. Am So and then we have this window of about four hours. Where I'm waking up and she's she's but everyone else is in the middle somewhere so it's We only have that one window because I I don't really feel like giving up tonight but it works it works and we're and we're GONNA have to get used to it so what I was going to come back to to the biggest issues that we're working on One is just honey adulteration and honey fraud. That's a that's a huge issue. I mean that's that's one of our major initiative and Jeff before you go further what's the definition of honey fraud? Generally it could be a lot of different things but generally it's the addition of some type of Syrup that is not honey to to you know to increase the volume and then an increase lower the price of the of the way so they add rice syrup or some kind of corn syrup honey and hope it goes undetected and if you can add up to fifteen or twenty or thirty percent of the honey then you just you just increase your profit because the honeys worth you know. Let's say five dollars a kilo and the rice syrup is worth you know thirty cents a kilo or something so it's is often it is it's the addition of the adulteration edition of other sugars. That are that are not really honey. The other way that we're worried about is not actually leading the bees process like just harvesting unripe nectar. That's and then. Just the bee's have an added the enzymes to it and things like that and you're taking really raw nectar extracting and drying it down and calling it honey and to us the bees. The bees need to go through the process of adding the enzymes lowering the moisture and then becomes honey. There's some issues in the tropics because tropical honey can have high moisture content above eighteen above twenty three percent so we have to be able to dry honey at some some point we should let the bees actually mature it and then we harvest it and there's a lot of harvesting immature honey and then drying that down calling it honey. So there's several ways honey frolics going on recently. There's been reports in popular science media that there are some been some scientists who have recreated the enzymes of a of a B.'s gut and can produce Lab honey would that be considered if they could produce at an production? Certainly hope that we would be able to recall back to the American produces a little bit. They've been actively they got an embargo. World Trade Organization. They went to world. Wto and said China's dumping it after call by name China's dumping honey at the US market below below below market below production costs and the World Trade Organization agreed with them. We got an embargo against Chinese honey for. I think three years well guess what happened to Vietnamese. And some other countries. There honey. Production went through the roof. So that's another type of honey fraud where you take honey from country. It's banned because of Corey and vehicle or banned because of some other thing and they transship it in. Relabel it as you know some other honey Ukraine there's issues with Ukraine and other. I don't want to call that all the countries. But there's a huge issue with correct labelling of country of origin and then and also letting the bees mature the Huntington having real you know we think of Israel pure natural honey one of the things that has come out of this with the American honey producers and others. I'm sure is Finally the the FDA has created something called a commercial item description see ID that Goes Way Way way the definition that we have in honey honey in this country? The official legal definition is a syrupy substance Nectar collected by these stored dried and. That's about it What this does is actually the? I'm sure you're aware of this description of honey that the government uses when they are going to purchase honey when the federal government's GONNA purchase honey for their own use and they have this for every product they buy a C. I D now we have one for honey and basically what it is. It's it takes the definition way beyond the syrupy sweet substance Outlining the tests that has to pass by what degree it has to pass them and and various different Analyses goes through so What the US is looking for us to have this adopted so that when something comes on shore there are testing facilities available and the honey gets tested and part of this. Of course you've mentioned mislabeling source poorest pollen testing. I'm sure right. Yep Yep but guess what? They're getting so sophisticated they there's another thing that happens because you get antibiotic contamination stuff because you know and then you ultra filter the the hunting you can get some of that out then they go back and add. Holland of whatever appropriate of plant that. They want to say that the honey frahm. So there's I mean there's some fairly sophisticated honey for all going on out there so I agree that honey producers and other groups have been really active ape among via. We've been working with CODEX THAN CODEX. Happens to be based part of his base at FAO in Rome. And we've got a a agreement with them and we're working with. Codex trying to get a better definition for honey and the other thing is we're working with Interpol Interpol tracking. Really guys. Honey. Fraud is number three on the list. It's for some reason milk. I mean milk a scary if you're adulterating milk or not. It's not real milk olive oil. I understand olive oil. I totally understand that. But in the highest number three on the world market is the number is number three adulterated product on the market a milk olive oil and then then honey. Interpol's interested and they're they're looking at things like where the shipments originating from and could they be real and things like that. Because that's a good way to pick up if all of a sudden you see these spikes and export where the haven't been there before. Then there's something going on. They didn't. They didn't improve their beekeeping that much in the last actor flow. Yeah so there's a. There's a y. Yeah I applaud any effort to better define honey and it'd be nice if we had a really nice tight international standard but we don't I mean we have a we have Kodak has a definition but it's not is not stringent enough well since the. Us imports eighty percent of the honey. We consume We Are. We are market of choice for everybody that produces honey anywhere and One of the things that I've been investigating are not investigating but but Become aware of is that One of the Nice things about producing honey is if a country decides that they want to get into this export market. It's fairly easy to train people to keep bees and their country and one of the big advantages of you. Don't have to own land. And and and so I can. I can be a non-landowner still producing agriculture commodity. And the government's going to pay me for it and life just got a lot better for a lot of people you had. You had a long association baby. You're still associated with the route. But you know we're all the good good clean wax. Cummings all coming out of Africa Africa right buzz. They practice a style of beekeeping where it primitive traditional whatever you WANNA call it there in natural areas. They'RE HARVESTING BLACKS IN THE COMA. Wax and honey at the same time and they produce a lot of good quality wags again. I'm going to wear my apron Monday half for a minute. We have a whole section that is using bees for development. And that is exactly what you just talked about. The bees can transform people's lives. I mean they can. You can not own land have twenty hives and and by your house in certain parts of the world. I mean it's it's amazing what they can do and and so we're using that and we're working closely with FAO Food and Agricultural Organization of the United Nations in Rome and trying to partner with them to increase the use of bees for development. Because yeah you're right. There's a there's a lot of untapped nectar out there that could be utilized and change people's lives and international standard. I I think you hit on the head this honey. He's got to be the same everywhere. Which would which would make things better? I think I think there's another way because people are gonNA they're gonNA keep trying to sell this artificially produced honey and this stuff with added. I actually think there's a market for that if people want something that's honey like. Just don't call it honey. In other words it's a call it. You know honey syrup or something but use some other designation and and I wonder if we could ever get to a day where there's some kind of better traceability we always thought pollen would be at. You can filter that out and you can have it back. But if there's some set of enzymes or something that we look for I know you can't look for things that if there's ever been heated to a degree you look for things have changed in it but a standard and I don't know if we can figure trace ability to trace it back to Zimbabwe trace it back to you know Kansas you know and it will. Last last year we did have eric winger from true source on the podcast and he and his outfit have are working on a method to true sources from from audits and seals. Seems like that's one option that is has some legs would be. That would be an option. I guess what happens is the volume goes up as you get into these bigger and bigger volumes in these large packers. And that's where the things start getting loose and and then you end up with honey on the shelf did you can't trust and we have to find a way to correct that I like. I like you know if you can convince mostly consumers to go look locally they can find somebody this labeling it locally and hopefully they're you know they're honest you have to but up and then make the Kroger's the Safeway's and targets of the world do do better about they're buying they're buying a service honey honey is a commodity honey nut cheerios. And the like. That's it's tough. It's tough to to work with at large volume with You know being used that way so much now so this is this is going to be one of your goals as president of Apron. Monday at to clean up the world honey market it was as we've been actively working on and we recognize it and we're GONNA continue to to work on it. The other is just for me is just better communication from eight Monday and and being more inclusive as far as global beekeeping and trying to Ma- let us work together better so yeah no I mean I think hunting fraud is one of the major issues facing the industry and I think we need to work to try to correct it the best way. We can just quick question on the Biki so this is a beekeeper association association. Yeah I think he is what you said so if an individual is a beekeeper doesn't join EPA Omonia I would encourage I your association to join. You can actually join as an individual member to it and you get that way. You're at least part of the you know the bigger group. You don't have much in the way of the only people who vote and we vote on where to hold a meeting and things like that. Are the full members in full members. Like the American Beekeeping Federation the larger organizations that represent the majority of Beekeepers Area. Some of the whole country. Sometimes this is just an area of a country all right size yeah interested. Parties interested beekeepers are free to join and attend conferences. Kansas beekeepers or even individual beekeepers can join. And join your right while you're going to put that When we wrap this up that'll be on our web page how to how to were to go to make that happen right. Output I'll I'll ape linked to they money website some good. We'll have that up on our show notes and additional information about APP ammonia. And maybe even some of your research also you need to do is go out to Google scholar and they can find a lot of information and research you've done. That's been an honor to sit here and talk to you. Well I'm still. I'm still doing a little bit so I kinda opened with. This thing is comment but retired. I'm like that's not the right word. I'm I changed what I was doing and I'm still doing research in a couple of different fronts. Actually I didn't talk about it I got. I got a small project in France. I'm working on a small supposed to leave in two weeks to go back to France. I'm working on a project with apis Melissa Melissa on up the the old German Darby they call it. Just the Darby European be and there's a population existing there without treatment. Beekeepers don't treat and they have a lot while its own islet happens to be on an island so it's probably isolation shopping him but I've been following it for a year and a half and its existing without my treatment at all so not that we can all do. But it's an interesting so I've got several different research projects that I'm continuing and that now this April Monday your hat and try to keep my own bees from swarming. I'm busy enough. Yeah Well Jeff. This has been fun and it was good to talk with you again. I definitely hope that you can come back after some time as being able Monday. President give us give us I A broader view A time lapse view of how things are going and where you WanNa go Knicks and love to have you come back. I'd love to be right. Good thank you take care now. That was really good talking to Jeff. I learned in all of our podcast and I hope our listeners do too i. I learned a lot and what I found. The he's doing great work but what I found really interesting what I really keyed in on was the the queen limit and the viability. And how important that is to the success of the Queen's that we receive in the mail I mean so there was some discussion on the the Celsius temperature range so I went ahead and used no power of the Internet. I did the conversions so he said the lower the lower. Let's see no. I'm sorry the Upper Queen limit was thirty nine to forty degrees Celsius any any greater than an hour. And if you convert that the upper limit is one hundred and two point two degrees to a hundred and four degrees Fahrenheit. Four hundred and two yeah. That's pretty warm. And then he said. The lower limit was Eight to ten wasn't yeah eight to ten. Thank you eight to ten degrees Celsius. And that's thirty nine degrees to forty degrees Fahrenheit. So that's I mean it's a very narrow range and and You can really see where there's a lot of room for exposure to those this shipment thing has been a bugaboo Twenty years ago. They were looking at it. They're putting putting thermometer in a recording devices in Queens in boxes shipping queens and they were funding out that there was an issue and you know the post office is down to the point where the only thing they will. Ship are bees and baby chicks. So so I can see. We're you know it's hard to have environmental controls in that sort of environment so I can see where there's that's going to cause some problems you know what one of the things that I wanted to talk about or wanted to mention with Jeff and you remember our discussion with Jonathan Lundgren where researchers became farmers here we have researchers becoming beekeepers and Jeff is in the real world of pulling trailers and lifting hives and worrying about pollination and selling honey and he's getting that perspective of what the real world of beekeeping is about how to apply what he's doing to that part of the that part of the industry. I don't know a whole lot of people that are doing that and I think it's I think it's going to be really good from his perspective and for our gain and what. He's what he's able to find out an an apply to real research the other thing. I like the other thing I like was his goal is apple Monday president of April Monday. What are we know about it but Monday? Well now we know a lot more. I do I go back a lot of years. They put Monday when I was chairman of the Board of. As and there they weren't warm and fuzzy and I looked at. I looked at April Monday. Kind of three steps back most of my career and because they just haven't reached out a lot of friendly A lot of friendly hands. It's really good to just part of the snow to get the. Us enabled Monday On a much better relationship. I really like his goals. Better Communication April. Monday really has a lot of good information at the a lot of resources at their Beck and call and they can share it and now with him. He's looking at at digital communication. And you know conferences on zoom in whatever I see I see Monday really stepping up and joining the rest of the world or the US and able Monday. You're getting together and doing a lot more together. Which can only be good. They've they've got a lot of resources and we've got a lot of resources. And then I'm really encouraged about his about his goals on Chasing honey fraud. You know we did. Yeah Eric with With true source. And that's a good step in the right direction with with in international Take on on honey fraud and the things that they're looking at and the project the private. I'll get it right yet. The projects that they've got planned in what they're looking for and how to fight it and how they ended Can only be good for America. Beekeepers? So I'm really really encouraged with Jeff taking over. I'm glad that the US American honey producers in April Monday or shaking hands and. I'm I've looked for this being really. Really profitable for global beekeeping. Sure sounds like it's a step in the right direction. I was surprised him. Saying that some of these Bad actors are of hyper filtering the honey and then adding to it and then adding pollen back into it to Mike. Sounds like anyways. That's well you know. That's quite a challenge. It's quite a challenge. The guy that we talked to honey fraud earlier. He says there's no basement on pricing. There's no ceiling on the amount of fraud that people will commit so Jeff just kind of pointed that out again You know seventy five percent of the honey. We eat consuming. This country is imported. So we're we're the market of choice. I was glad to hear him talk about his be there. Bees for development program and getting people started If they can get that regulated so that the honey they produces the honey we get. That'll be a big improvement And you know it's win win win in the farmer wins. The country wins the. Us Consumer wins I see it as being a good thing. I hope it pans up any too well. They've got a good good lead there if the money with Jeff Patterson front all right. Well that about wraps it up for this episode of Beekeeping. Today podcast before we go. I want to encourage our listeners to raise US five stars and Apple podcasts. Wherever you download stream to show your vote and review helps other beekeepers find US quicker as always we. WanNa thank be culture the magazine for American beekeeping for their sponsorship of this podcast. We want to thank a regular episodes sponsor Global Patties. Check them out at. Www DOT global patties dot com and finally and mostly? We WanNa thank you the beekeeping today podcast listener joining us on this show. We feel free to send US QUESTIONS. And comments questions beekeeping. Today's PODCAST DOT com. We'd love to hear from you anything else. You WanNA mention him. Well Jeff I gotta go check bees while the sun is shining. Take Care you too.