Amanpour: David Miliband, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Hoan Ton-That

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Hello everyone and welcome to on four. Here's what's coming up freezing and trapped a humanitarian catastrophe grip Syria as the regime's russian-backed offensive. It live takes an even deadlier turn. I speak to the head of the international rescue committee racing to keep civilians alive then. The American revolution was fought by many people from many backgrounds. Black Patriots. Nba Legend Kareem abdul-jabbar new film on the forgotten. Black Heroes of America's War of independence. And do I own my face anymore? It's your face. Of course you do the facial recognition company that could end privacy as we know it. Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Hundreds of thousands of Syrians of fleeing for their lives right now as United Nations warns the biggest humanitarian catastrophe of the nine year. War is underway. Syria's Assad regime backed by. Russia is accelerating deadly offensive against the last opposition stronghold where also there are millions of civilians the UN's human rights commissioner calls it cruelty beyond belief as children freeze to death in subzero temperatures and families walk for days on clogged roads with no transport correspondent our Damon has been reporting on this unfolding disaster. And of course some of the images in this report are upsetting to watch is barely enough light to see as we head toward. Samir's tent in one of it lip sprawling camps a couple nights ago. Temperatures dropped well below zero and the family didn't have enough to Fisher. What do I fed my baby and he went to sleep semi at tells us still in shock at six thirty seven. Children woke me up screaming. I touched him and he was icy. The doctors told them he froze to death. Her husband walks out before he breaks down. She doesn't have a photograph Hopton. We'll have a live just this image as they said their final goodbyes. She can't forgive herself. She can't understand how life can be so cruel. Few People here Ken. We have made multiple trips into the province none like this roads throughout the province are clogged with the traffic of those on the run. Unending waves many have been displaced multiple times before. But this time it's different. They feel like no matter what they do. They won't be able to outrun the war seat on these children walked for seven hours in the middle of the night to get away from the bombing near their village. But it's not far enough is I'm Gina. The they want to leave from here but they they need to try to figure out transporters in things if they try to go walk just impossible down the road dima and but truly clutched their stuffed animals for the last time for there's a world war toys are not considered essential survival. Is They don't cry or complaint that they're loaded into the truck. There is a sense of finality. Costra phobia compounded by the collective misery of those trapped here with the regime rapidly closing in an emptying out entire areas. Abates tent is perched on a hilltop away from the countless other makeshift camps in the middle of three Marshall Sort Bullshit. Our conversation is broken up by warnings from an APP. He has on his phone about where. The planes are flying and bombing. His elderly mother lies in the corner. She's been that way ever since they found out that his brother died in a regime prison and the regime. It's getting closer to small Switzerland. My it yeah you can hear that. This is his brother who was detained in two thousand twelve when he was part of the protests and then in two thousand fifteen they got notification while you sorta this is the photograph. They got him got in prison. Sorta becomes all I have. Is this photo just this memory? He says haunted by his pain. Even if the regime tried to reconcile it's impossible. He swears you can't trust them. It is such powerful testimony and things will likely get worse in it live as President Assad and his Russian backers have made it clear that their only goal is total victory. Listen to him on national television and we are fully aware that this liberation does not mean the end of war nor the collapse of schemes with the demise of terrorism football nor does it mean that the enemies have surrendered but it certainly means rubbing their noses in the dirt as a prelude. I complete defeat sooner or later we rubbing their noses in the dirt. Well David Miller Band is head of the International Rescue Committee. It is one of several aid organizations on the ground. Desperately trying to save Syrian lives. And he's joining me now from New York David Milliman. Welcome back to the program. Thanks Christiane you know. We've had you many times and each time. You give a very eloquent disclu discuss position about what's happening to the people on the ground and even as we speak there's a UN meeting going on and where does it bring us if the world doesn't act now. This terrible catastrophe is going to get worse. You're right what we're seeing from. Some of the extraordinary journalism by people like Damon is a political emergency as well as a humanitarian emergency. The pictures and the stories are absolutely telling of a dehumanization that really shames everyone but the political gridlock is also very very striking not just the combatants and the new humanity with which hospitals and people fleeing are being bombed and shelled but also the politicians and the governments who are turning away to focus on other matters. I think this really is now a question of fundamental importance for the meaning and purpose of the United Nations and I would like to see the sector general of the UN get on a plane a Goto Lib. Talk to the people that you have been talking to. Your correspondent has to go to Moscow a talk to the Russian backers of the Syrian government. Of course talk to the Turks and then come back to New York and urge and drive and shame the nations of the United Nations to live up to the most founding elements of the UN Charter of seventy five years ago. Well that's pretty strong coming from you directly to the secretary general. Why do you think he doesn't do that? That that is within his remit it. It is within his power even if he can't turn on off switch he can bring the moral case to the world and the world's case by all politics is politics is what's led us to this. Impasse it's important to underline what you'll correspondent said which is that. This is the largest displacement of people since the war began and that's nine years of war six million refugees eight million internally displaced over just this weekend one hundred thirty thousand people driven from their homes with nothing to hold not even the children's Teddy bears that you referred to in the film and the fundamental aspects of the Post. War Order is that civilians in war should be protected. And I call this in the age of impunity because there is no accountability for those who are literally committing war crimes. As we speak David Milovan lists talk about what's happening on the ground. So you've mentioned the one hundred thousand this weekend alone since December some nine hundred thousand. That's nearly a million people trying to get out. We've seen these pictures of what we called clogged roads. There are loads of trucks. But many many more calm get on any transport and can't get out. What is the actual physical reality beyond what we just reported that these men women and children are mostly women and children facing now as they flee well? The physical reality has to differences to what you just said. I will not trying to get out. They can't get out what they're doing is they're moving west and then moving north into a tighter and tighter more densely populated in clave press. Stop against the Turkish border. Turkey already has three point five. Three point seven million refugees from Syria and it saying it will take a no more. The second aspect is different but was evident from the film you showed is how freezing cold it is people. Don't associate the Middle East with minus eleven degrees Centigrade. But that's the kind of weather conditions that have led to the seven deaths report of children freezing to death that had been reported by the United Nations so the clogged roads. Yes but also people fleeing through from abandoned houses that had been shelled Fleeing through fields I am finding that way to the quote unquote finality. Think that was your word of being huddled up against trees. Fifty thousand people under trees others intense with no heating aid trucks going through the border crossing to Turkey at the rate of about a thousand a day but at the UN meeting you've just referred to the coordinator of the UN humanitarian effort referred to a five hundred million dollars deficit. On a need to widen the number of trucks that are getting through to me. Immediate humanitarian need. Well the agenda for the secretary. General is absolutely. It's a ceasefire which is complicated but necessary an absolutely justified. Secondly it's accountability for the crimes. Thirdly it's proper humanitarian help on a scale that is needed given the physical conditions and then fourthly and critically remember the whole argument of the Syrian government is that they're rounding up terrorists but they're not amidst the three and a half million people live province. That may well be twenty to thirty thousand people in various terrorist factions. But they are not the victims of this at the moment they're actually profiting from this quickly. Take the humanitarian urgency. You mentioned you know. They need food. They need a huge amount or the head of the World Food Program. David Beasley has been talking to the Europeans about this. This is what he said is urgently needed for us. To feed a Syrian support. A Syrian in Syria is about fifty cents per day. And that's almost double the normal course because it's a war zone. Logistics cost more in war zones that saying Syrian. That may have lived in the Bascus if we're in Brussels or Berlin. The humanitarian package is fifty to one hundred euros per day. So He's obviously making the case that it's better and cheaper to be able to immediately send them sustenance. Let me also ask you because the second part of what you said is to get a ceasefire and hopefully somewhere down the line. Some kind of accountability but a ceasefire. You heard what we ran from Bouchara. Assad the president who believes he's winning. He said rub their noses in the dirt. What do you? What does that look like? That looks like children freezing. It looks like two hundred and fifty civilians being killed over the last Three months it means innocent people losing lives and livelihoods in the most unspeakable way and so the human toll here is not just some sort of collateral that can be added onto a balance sheet at the end of this war. It defies the very purpose that is alleged to be behind the battering ram that is being applied to the people of live. And it's important for your viewers to remember many of the people now crowded into Italy. Province have moved from other parts of Syria. That's why David Beasley of the world. Food Program referred to someone who was previously in Damascus in Eastern Guitar or previously in Dara. One and a half million people have been shepherded into it. Lib as a result of previous settlements in other parts of the country and this is all about leverage. Is All about pressure at the moment. Turkey is facing the conflicting need on the one hand to defend his soldiers. Six Turkish soldiers were killed Earlier this month. Thirteen Syrians were then killed in a reprisal but on the other hand is trying to figure out how to deal with the pressure of more refugees. Arriving and that's why this is not just a Syrian issue. It's a Middle Eastern issue but frankly also a European issue because Europe struggled to deal with the refugee flow in two thousand fifteen sixteen. We discussed it at the time. And it's going to struggle again if it can't find a way to a ceasefire that holds the line on the civilian slaughter. That's happening in the moment. And do you expect it to? I mean the terrible specter. That's just being raised by the president of Turkey is the Turkey could intervene militarily. And I don't know take on the Russians. What is that going to look like? I mean Turks has that Turkey's already into being military. Turkey has thirteen oversight points in Italy. Province they are armed with one hundred eighty to one hundred soldiers each and it's made very clear both through actions and words that it will find on Russians but it will file on Syrian troops eight to thirteen and troops as I said were killed so the diplomatic action here is Syria. Russia also vital to see Turkey as part of this equation and Iran. Those four countries have taken occupation if you like of the diplomatic effort the UN mediator the U. N. special envoy has been pushed to one side the UN has been pushed to one side. And that's a further reason for the secretary general to reassert the role of the United Nations as the preeminent peacemaking body because as long as the Syria conflict is a matter for Russia for Syria for Turkey and for Iran. But not for anyone else. You're not gonNA get the kind of settlement that can bring any kind of sustained peace to the country. It's important to also remind you to aid. Workers were killed in the south of Syria earlier today. Not shows you that. There isn't a sustainable peace even in areas where the Assad regime has now established control. You mentioned Russia you mentioned the UN the British Ambassador to the UN took on the Russians. And you know we've heard whether it was Susan Rice. So Samantha power as ambassadors under Obama. Whoever it might be they're always trying to shame the Russians who have the ultimate power there over Assad into something and this is now what Karen Pierce said in public at the Security Council. Just take a listen. The reconstruction will be made infinitely harder by the destruction the wanton destruction that the Syrian and Russian governments carrying count now so it will be for Russian taxpayers missed precedent possibly assisted by Chinese taxpayers. But it will be a Russian tax payers to put Syria back together again. Well David Miliband. The humanitarian appeal to Russia. Didn't work for the last nine years. Is this GONNA work? Well obviously the reconstruction of Syria is not the issue at the moment. Issue is stop the fighting. Obviously the Europeans have made absolutely clear. They're not paying a penny until there is an inclusive political settlement. I also want to remind you that there's a second area of Syria is not yet under the Assad government control and that's the northeast of the country. There's a thousand American troops there and that is being a more stable part of the country. The Kurdish part of the country around Derozan around Hasa province as well. And so you have these two parts of Syria. That remain outwith. The control of the government. the remain a sore that has to be addressed in a political way. Not In a military way. Was I want to tell you that there are still at least three hundred thousand people in it lip city? We've been talking about it Lib as a province. It's also a city. It's a built up city. No one has a military plan to go street by street through and so I think that the pressure now has to be for a halt to this senseless bombardment. The both sets bag any hope of reconstructing Syria never mind compromises the safety and security of civilians who've already been twice three times four times displaced. You mentioned that other space there which is quite a significant space occupied by the Syrian Kurds and their American troops in that area. You've said what you think the. Un General should do. What should the United States do? What should the president of the United States do or say to try to effect this and remember very prominently Syrian? Exiles went to the president of more than a year ago and warn them about being in the crosshairs of outside and this would happen and he promised them to take you know. Take it seriously into look into it. What should America be doing when you're making a really important point Christiane? This is about geopolitics as well as humanitarian aid the American troops the lead a humanitarian organisations. I'm not making military recommendations but I can report to you. That American troops have been part of fragile equilibrium in the northeast of Syria of made it the more stable part of the country over the last nine years my plea to the president would be twofold first of all to make sure that humanitarian concerns are fully integrated into every military decision that he takes about the deployment of the thousand. American troops under two thousand American troops. Who are in the north east of the country and secondly that he throws diplomatic priority and diplomatic weight behind the resolution of the situation west of the country because without leverage without priority without consistent pressure without linkage between the Syria issue and other concerns that Russia in America have together without that kind of leverage that will be no respite for the people in the north west of Syria. Nor will there be any kind of sustained stability in the Middle East. David thank you so much for yet again bringing district before this terrible time. 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The smartest way to hire see. Why ziprecruiter is effective for of all sizes Ziprecruiter for free at our web address ziprecruiter dot com slash CNN pod that's ziprecruiter dot com slash C. N. N. P. O. D. Is Your Pals Impractical jokers. And we made a movie called. Impractical jokers. The movie we came up with that title ourselves is in theaters on February twenty. First I'm not going to tell you how to live your life but go see it. You have to do it make it happen. We love you. We're GONNA turn now to a new documentary. That's shining light on the forgotten. Heroes of the American Revolution Black Patriots is NBA. Legend Kareem abdul-jabbar latest project. The documentary tells the stories of the black revolutionaries who helped establish America. But who often left out of the history books and Kareem abdul-jabbar. Join me now from Irvine California. Welcome to the program. Thank you very much nice to be here. I know that your history buff but I'm not sure how many people knew that. I know you've written books about this subject to keep the black participation in the United States fronton center as much as you can. What made you do this particular project. It's really really fascinating. Well I thought that most people don't understand why America became what it has become and there are many reasons for that and part of the American Revolution was in the hands on Black Americans. Who made it possible for the American Revolution to succeed? And I think that We should all understand that especially black Americans because they have to understand their stake in our country. Their country yes. At what point did you realize I mean? What what was the thing that triggered you? When did you realize that their historic role was written out of the book? So to speak well just when I thought back to the history books that I had to deal with when I was in grade school and high school they never ever dealt with this subject and All American kids learn about the establishment of our country. It's a part of our civic education and a black people are are were never included in that Recitation of history. And we have to change that so we have a few images of some of the black people as you mentioned who profiled in the in the film one of the first one. We have is Christmas Attock now. He was the man who stored to have a black father native American mother. He escaped slavery and was working around Boston. Harbor and is widely regarded as the first person killed in the Boston massacre which essentially triggered the American revolution. Here's a little clip. And then I want to talk about his life and his contribution group of these black and white dockworkers who come together and try to form a public procession to declare their outrage that point because he was a runaway that the prudent thing for me would be to quietly back away and kind of get out of this fight but but that was not his I think character and personality addicts is described as being at the front of this crowd big guy and he's carrying a big club and some of the British records would say that he's brandishing the club that he's menacing they're British soldiers. We know that the British soldiers were harassing them. Back and so it was a back and forth the British had guns and the British use them. So that's some of the historians were telling us and showing US some. You know some of the imagery that has been discovered but give us tell us about the importance of what he did. The significance of of Addicts well I think. The significance For historical perspective has to do with the fact that From the very beginning black Americans had a stake in what was happening during the revolution because they saw that if the colonies we're going to be free maybe they could be free. A number of black people in in our country were free and posed a direct contradiction to The slaves or and other people of Color who had to accept a second class citizenship. So all these questions were in the air and we're going to be resolved by the end of the revolution. Okay so you mentioned some. We're free but others. For instance another one who you who you profile. Pitas Salem. He was born into slavery but he was freed by his own. Ah By is master to serve. And it's believed that Peter Salem shot a major pitcairn who was an officer in the British Army Bunker Hill and we have this image up now this amazing painting which is of the fighting a bunker hill and you believe the pita. Salem is hidden in the corner that what does it tell you just the fact that you can barely see him. By the way you have to really squint. What does it tell you about? Even how these brave black patriots are even remembered in culture in are not not mention history. Books were painting points to the marginalization of blacks and other people of Color When history is written and retold that's been the problem The people who write the history Seem to want to marginalize or eliminate certain segments of society out of their contributions. I could name Many more contributions that have had gone unnoticed store a marginalized because of of this phenomena. The the people who write the history books have some crazy ideas In Texas at one point they tried to refer to slaves as workers. You know people who came there to work This is not true. These were enslaved people who had no choice in this matter You know the the spin that is put on historical events By a school districts and people who write history books is very important when you talk about the effect that These books have on students. And and you say some crazy ideas well you report in the documentary that even at the time. There were crazy ideas. Or maybe even. In retrospect you know there were. There were aspersions cast against blacks for their ability. Could they actually fight where they're smart enough to figure out what to do? I mean these. These are quite shocking. These stories that are told in this in this documentary of course at some point people who own slaves have to justify the fact that they are enslaving people and at some point they say it. It's good for them. Teaches them or any other reasons. Usually it's Financial slavery in naval certain people get rich and have privileges so we have to understand. What the facts are and point them out and you know. Let let the chips fall where they have to another one of the people who you profile in this in this film is a woman. Called fitness wheat lead now. She was born in West Africa. She was then sold into slavery at around eight years old and then transported to America where she was taught by her slave owners to reach began to write poems and twenty. She's the first African American. I enslave person and only third woman to publish a book of poems but significantly. She writes a letter to George Washington. Tell me about that and why that is important. I think Phyllis has led to George Washington really show George Washington that the people that he looked down upon as being second class citizens and not as human as he was really work human and they had human feelings equal to and every bit as valuable as The feelings of Europeans so You know that that was something that must have gotten through George Washington and had him understand that he did have a quandary. The the whole idea of of Getting black slaves to join. The army was really embraced by both the revolutionary side and the British side. Plus if that happened Their armies would have been able to deal with the manpower shortages that were chronic on both sides. So you know there's a method to A lot of the madness that would that we see going on during this time. This is really important. Because many of the black fighters and there's one by the name of James Ostad Lafayette many. Who played a very significant role at the end? You know basically forced the British surrender but many of them believed that they would be free. Many of them thought that if they thought they would win their freedom and it didn't come to pass and yeah the British did promise them freedom and you report that four times as many North American enslaved black people fought for the British Dan for the colonies. Yes that's true. And when the hostilities were over many blacks left the colonies and were able to enjoy freedom outside of the colonies whereas the ones that took the offer from the United States. I'd found that the the promises we're going to be kept and they had to be returned to slavery. The person that you mentioned James Armstead he had been a spy and could not gain his freedom because he did not fight but The comfortable I forget the petition the Virginia legislator to to Free James Armstead and they did and James armistead adapted Lafayette's last name in appreciation of the effort that he made to to gain his freedom is really an extraordinary thing and it's a great reminder to all of us and I wanted to ask you about the current war. Let's talk about the current political electron war. That's going on in the United States Obviously all the candidates are trying to court. The African American vote. We're talking about the Democrats now and of course president trump. You have said the Democrats should adopt. You know sports tactics in order to fight this. This fight well. Well what do you mean exactly? What do you see going on in this race to that the whole idea is about teamwork you know we have to work together into Achieve the goals and we have to have clearly defined goals. So you know any any team that comes together to to achieve. Something has to really have a good plan that everybody agrees on is willing to work hard to implement so I hope that's what happens for our side. And what do you think about the chances of a Joe Biden? Who's WHO's relying on the African American turnout in the next primary probably in the caucus to Bloomberg who's also surging in the polls do do. Do you have any particular thing to say about either of them? No I think we have to find out. Exactly what their positions are in. That isn't really clear yet We we really haven't narrow the choices down enough to where we have a clear and clearly discernible. Choice to make between a clear positions on Whatever side trying to support so we we. We will get to that point just because the process demands that. And you know I think that's the good part about Our electoral process and people have to go out and state what their positions are and how much support that they they actually are going to get so you really are in a wait and see mode. I just very very briefly. Bloomberg has apologized for stop and frisk but it seems to keep haunting him and following him. Do you see that as a as a black as as I was going to say a black mark but you know what I mean as counting against him. Well I think the people who suffered through that other people have coloring New York who were harassed by police. I think we've got to hear from them and see what that's all about their experiences. Really define Mr Bloomberg's presidency As far as That issue is concerned. So we'll find out and get down to the facts you know we have to find out. What the facts are in that takes discussion. So I'm I'm eager to hear what everybody has to say on that Mr Bloomberg the other side and then we'll make our choices. Well we'll hear I in the Wednesday night debate but let me just finish by asking you. You lost the world. Lost a great great teammate. Kobe Bryant of the Lakers last month. It's shock so many people just your your your thoughts now. A month or so later on on the void he needs in the legacy. I suppose. Well I don't think that we've really gotten to the point where we understand what that legacy is going to be because You know we still getting over what happened and still don't really understand it on such a senseless loss of life. And you know that that's really what we're left with a big hole in the in a lot of people's lives it's it's unfortunate but there we go and I just Send my condolences to family and friends and You know along with all the other people that helped him and supported him You know I'm shocked and saddened by it. Well I mean again. You both Lakers. What what was your. Do you have a standout memory? You knew him very well. I mean just some personal recollection that especial. I remember Kobe's daughters really well. I got to know them away from the game and everything just as a parent and grandparent. You know I think that that's really what the What the real tragic aspect of the loss has to do. A young life just gone along with eight other lives in no reason for it exactly. We'll everybody is still grieving. We thank you very much. Kareem abdul-jabbar Java those sorts and so the documentary black patriots. Heroes of the revolution premieres tonight on the history channel. And now we turn to a controversial new op threatening to weaponize profiling like we've never seen before clearview a I is a groundbreaking facial recognition technology scrapes billions of images from social media and all across the Internet it is currently used by the FBI and hundreds of law enforcement agencies in the United States and Canada to identify suspects. One Todd is the founder and CEO of clearview and our hurry us and asked him what the company can do to keep law enforcement and other uses from abusing this powerful new tool. So let's the basics how does automated facial recognition work? This is what we do at clear. Views actually not automated facial recognition okay. We're investigative investigative tool off the fact investigation. So after someone has committed a crime. There was probable cause for example a bank robbery. Then a detective can use out tool take a photo of that face and then perhaps lead into who. That person is beginning of an investigation. Not The end. So let's say you get a picture of a bank robber. How is the software working? How does it find that face in SIA faces what happens is the investigative can find a right screen cap the right frame and then run the APP take a photo and his searches only publicly available information on the Internet and then provides a link so just looks like and feels like Google? But you put in faces instead of words. Okay so how does it know? My face is different than yours when we actually in sort of computer speak. What does it looking for? What are the similarities? What are the differences that make our faces distinct yeah so the older facial recognition systems because facial? Rex Been Around for twenty years. Yeah we're more hard coded they would try and measure the distance between the eyes or eyes and nose and what the next generation of artificial intelligence is allowed is Neural networks where you get a thousand faces of the same person I in different angles or with a beard without a beard with glosses without glasses and the algorithm will learn what features stay the same what features a different so with a lot of training data. You can get accuracy. That's better than the human eye. So training data means more samples. Yes more apples. So the larger the sample set the better. The software gets exactly. And how big is the sample that you're working with now? So we have a database now of over three billion photos. Three billion photos yes correct. We're ready to get three billion photos from there actually all over the Internet so you have news sites. You have mugshots sites. You have so for media sites have all kinds of information that's publicly available on the Internet and we're able to index and search it and use it for to help law enforcement solve crimes. Okay so let's see demo of how this works. I'm going to try to show you some photos. And these are photos that we have permission from a couple of the people We're GONNA probably shield their faces. Now let's try a blurry picture. I don't know if they work or not. But you know a lot of times police officers not going to work with a beautiful perfectly. Infocus shot and one thing to keep in mind. The way the software is used and the protocols that law enforcement have is only only run a search if a crime has happened right in to is not sole source evidence to back it up with other things so it's the beginning of an investigation so never tried this before and it's a little blurry bud. Taking a photo of photo in out searching all three billion photos that might actually because it's blurry find other blurry photos but looks like we do have one match there on instagram. And you can click on it and you can see if that's the same person or not. Yeah so it looks like that's the actual same photo that we found and in fact. That is the same photo that we found exactly so. That's that was posted on instagram. And your software had that photo in its Corpus. Three billion photos correct is that because at that account was public yes so it so it was a public account and that photo was posted publicly. Okay so if the if if law enforcement is investigating actual crime now is not a crime to be at a protest. That's and there are concerns about how technology is used and that's why we have controls in place and that's why we want to be responsible. Facial recognition is just an example. Sure man let's try somebody who says that she keeps herself. Pretty Limited to social media. Let's try that face again. A photo of photo just for demonstration purposes. And that is the same woman so this these three billion images that you've got in the system here pretty much. Every major tech platform has told you to cease and desist. Stop scouring our pages. What does that mean to that? Three billion image set so first of all. These tech companies are only a small portion of the millions and millions of websites available on the Internet so We've received from some of the tech companies and Al Lawyers are handling it appropriately but one thing to note is all the information we are getting is publicly available. It's in the public domain. So we're a search engine just like Google. We're only looking at publicly available pages and then indexing them into our database so how many police departments are using this now. We have over six hundred police departments in the US and Canada using clearview. And when you say using that means that they are running this they the their officers have them in hand. How does it work so? Typically it goes to the investigators doing crimes and they might have a different number of people using it to solve cases. Do you have the equivalent of God view that can see what every department in every investigators searching for so what we've done is we have an audit trail from each department. So say you're the sergeant or you're the supervisor in charge you can see the history of people in your department to make sure that using it for the proper cases so they're not using it to look people up at the protest it each check that they have a case number for research that they've done and things like that. Yeah so who's policing the police? So they have procedures in place about how you meant to use facial recognition so some of these departments of editor for over ten years Procedures in place on how to probably do a search and all the guidelines and there and so on so you know who they feel have pretty good. Procedures in place and police are some of the most monitored people in all of society. So you know they don't WanNa make a mistake and we don't want them to have any of us that we're building tools for the police department and we're adding more things to make it secure for them. How do I know how many bad guys the cops have gotten using this versus for example the number of good people that it might have wrongly identified? Yeah that's great so I think the Val tool. We haven't had anyone wrongfully arrested. Wrongfully detained with facial- facial recognition at all on the flip side of cases. That are being solved. We get emails daily. I got one two days ago. That said that These highway patrol could run a photo of someone. They couldn't identify it. He was picking up three kilos of fence. So we get emails like that. Every single day. from law enforcement. So we really think that the upside is completely outweighing the downside. I understand that there's a Lotta concerns about misuse. All that stuff but so far. They've all been hypothetical and misidentification so our software is so accurate now as you can see in the demo and we made sure it works on all different races and all different genders and it's also not used as evidence in court one of the things that you said Interested me how do you make sure that the software is able to find distinctions in people of Color or by gender So one thing how software does is does not measure race it does not measure gender. All it measures the uniqueness of your face and when you have all this training data that we've used to build the algorithm. We made sure that we had enough of each demographic in their other algorithms might be biased in terms of having the minority is enough training data in the database for them. So that's something we made very sure of and we've done independent testing to verify that that were not biased in have no false positives across all races. You're Vietnamese Australian right. But you've been in the United States for a few years and I've just got to ask. Have you ever been stopped in? Frist not yet right I mean. Do you know what that's why that's so important in the United States. Why people have this feeling that even if there are ninety nine point nine percent the police are out to protect. Us doing a great job. There have been so many encounters with police for certainly for people of color where they feel like. I don't need one more tool where it will be used against me on the streets of New York or some other city right absolutely. So we're again. We're not real time surveillance investigative after the fact and yes stop and Frisk was definitely too aggressive for what the benefits were for. It was for and I think with our tool. We'd be able to even decrease that kind of behavior amongst the police if you're just profiling people based on the color of their skin you know. That's not a fair thing and I think that's why there was such a backlash against stop and Frisk because people of color were just you know totally innocent getting stop and Frisk all the time. Now maybe in a different world with you could be a lot better with accurate facial recognition. But here's the thing at this point. I'm a fourteen year old boy of color walking down the street. A police officer now has your APP also puts my face into the system over time the next time. I have a photo of me taken for any reason. Now here's a track record of one more photo that's been taken by police officer. Is there something suspect of this child? Right I mean that's one of the ways that people fear that these technologies will be used against us though right now just to be clear. This uses investigative tool so people aren't how they're just taking photos in the wild right now. Some crime has happened there's probable cause Cetera and that's your intent. That's the intent of your company today but the technology is what the technology is. If someone else had access to this tool could it be used in a different way? Yeah that's why we have a lot of policies in place but also technology is not done for its own sake. It's always run by people right. We have a company. We have very strong beliefs in how it should be used and so the society and we don't want to have anything that was too conflicting or we don't want to create a world we don't WanNa live in personally. So yes maybe someone else could build something similar And use it. Misuse it for other things. But that's not what we're GONNA do. So how do I? How do I have that assurance you look? You're smart guy. There's lots of tools that have existed on the planet. Like you could say cars or guns right. There depends on who's driving them and how they're used and we have tons of regulations and laws and safety measures in place and even with that we have thousands of people die in car accidents and we have mass shootings on the edge. Cases are very very bad. Yes and that's with lots of guardrails in place in this arena. There's no legislation will listen. We're actually for regulation in a lot of ways. We think it is a powerful tool. I think the public has a right to know how it's being used currently. That's why we here in talking to everybody but I also think that federal guidelines on how it's being used would be probably a very positive thing it would put the public ease and it would law enforcement understand. You know this is how you use it how you don't use it and I think the choice now is not between like no facial recognition and facial recognition is between you know bad facial recognition and responsible facial recognition and. We want to be in the responsible category. You're also trying to take this business global. It's not just police departments here but there have been maps in some of your literature. That says that you're selling it overseas. Is that true right? So we're actually focused on the US and Canada but we've had a ton of interest from all around the world so what is interesting. Is You know as awards more interconnected. A lot of crime is also global. But you know we're very much focused in the US and Canada and it's just the interest from around the world is is just a sign that it's such a human need to be safe but inevitably as you just said the the the rationale for having it overseas is that crime knows no borders and that you WANNA help law enforcement authorities all over catch bad guys but those other countries might have different value systems. Sure I there's some countries that would never sell to that very adverse to the US for example like China and Russia Iran North Korea. So those are the things that are definitely off the table countries that think that being gay is should be illegal crime so like I said you know we want to make sure that we do everything correctly mainly focused on the US and Canada and the interest is being overwhelming to be honest just so much interest that you know taking one day at a time you also said something like you don't want to design a world that you don't WanNa live in. What does that world look like? Just so I know great so I think that you know your private data and your private thoughts you private emails. They should stay private right. I don't think that it's unless you have very very rare cases around national security. Which is what the fives courts for surveillance into. Everyone's private messages. I don't think that's the right thing but I do think that it's fair. Game to help law enforcement so of crimes from publicly available data we have had post Edward snowden revelations we we have plenty of evidence of our own government overstepping the bounds. What if you're software facilitates a world? You didn't WanNa live in. We're not going to make sure that will happen but to be clear like did you. Do you think Mark Zuckerberg thought that his software would be manipulated in an election. Of of course he didn't. But you know I think. Facebook provides award a lot of good. It connects a Lotta people had otherwise been connected tons of people have gotten married through facebook and I think the benefit of it always against the platform. It's it's an right but what I'm saying is is that. Are you planning today? Are you figuring out what are the edge cases and how to insulate it myself against the worst thing that could happen? He seems like if you can design something. There's someone out there very smart trying to figure out. How can I abuse his tool exactly? We always think of the cases. That's where we WANNA go with everything I've when you think about risk mitigation so like you said cars very regulated but you can take a car and drive it into a building very rarely happens. Same with guns were controls over guns and school. Shootings shootings are very unfortunate to have in this country. And we've actually helped with some of these active shooter cases. That's pretty interesting but with this tool. It's what's the worst that can happen with it. You know we always think about that. How to mitigate that and make sure that only the right people using it and that the more sunlight show and on the use of the tool and the more controls for law enforcement so maybe someone doing too many searches of the same person or there more things we can add to our system and that's why we're excited to start the debate or like learn more from people in government about. What is the right thing to do? There's a certain level of obscurity. Almost that feels part of being human. I interact differently with you than I do with my family than I do with my colleague drinking and so I guess it's kind of philosophical question but do I own my face anymore. It's your face of course you do but like what you're talking about. There's more like so who context and who you're hanging out with etc. Sure so context to dissolve. If it's really up to your search right your search if you did my face right now you can do. There's going to be hundreds and thousands of pictures of me probably doing television shows and whatever there might be some of my family. There might be some with whatever it's all. There's no context it's just all one set of images. Yeah exactly and I agree with you like this tool used in the right context. And that's why we've found. Law Enforcement was by far the best and highest purpose and use of facial recognition technology. Now on the flip side like you said if I had this APP and I saw you on the street and I ran your photo and I ask you questions and you know a lot about you. I don't think that's the world I wanna live in either. How do you ensure that whoever takes over your company when you will onto the next thing Liz by these same values so for us? It's about the company culture what we believe in and also the real value in the thing. I get excited about every day is the psychic value from all great case studies. We have and all. Is We help solve. So that's what we're really in for it. You know. We're not really in for for the money and other people have said maybe you should do a consumer. It's a big market. Many venture capitalists said law enforcement so small market. Why don't you do something else? But we really believe in the mission and we really believed the value to society so much higher if we do it in a responsible way do control. The bulk of your company similar to what lots of Tech Company has done. Meaning you have more voting shares like the Google guys or Mark Zuckerberg or anything else. Let's say at some point your investors outvote you and say we really should be looking at the bigger picture here because we can make more money. We've invested this for return. They're not in it for the psychic value. They're in it for the dollars. I think investors have both motivations. You can't say they're always in it for the money. We try and pick investors that have very much aligned with the mission. That's why the ones who wanted us. Consumer we rejected in the ones who really believe in law enforcement law and order we worked with and for now we do control the division and the direction of the company and got to understand businesses adhere to make money. And that's a good but it's more important to provide value to society and I think we're doing that and I really big level who who were the the big investors or how many how many investors do you have or what what. What part of that information do you share? We have? We've done two rounds so far. Investment a seed round in this series. And we don't really talk about our investors. So here's the thing it's like. I WanNa believe the fact that you WanNa pick investors that are mission driven right. But if you don't know who those are. That doesn't look like a lot of transparency. Either they just don't want to be named at this point right and we want to protect the privacy. That's important to us. That sounds the most ironic because okay I know I. It's like I get that. You want to protect their privacy. But everybody's looking at this APP saying well. What about our privacy? What about the three billion images that exist you know Peter Thiel as Navarre Ravikant? We have a whole wide range of investors and thrilled to work with them. We love their support. They're all US based or UK based and that is important to us to make sure it's in the hands of you know American investors aren't on TAP. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you very much appreciate it. Then Harry had a good point. There finally Wednesday night is democratic. Presidential Debate in Las Vegas will mark the first time that a climate journalists will be a moderate up. She's Vanessa Auk a prominent Latino reporter for Telemundo and she'll be joining us on the show tomorrow and also on the program. Journalists McKay coppins whose groundbreaking investigation for the Atlantic reveals. How the trump campaign's digital and disinformation strategy could be a game changer in November. So be chewed. Be sure to tune in full of that and that is it for now you can always catch us online on our podcast and across social media. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

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