Episode 76: WWJD with Shelby Seelinger


From the beginning to the musical bach lips. this is the bible. Says what i'm your host. Mike wiseman greetings bmw heathens. Today's episode comes with some audio issues. The united states air force thought it would be fun to fly all their aircraft during my conversation apologies ahead of time now for the good news. The show has a new. My best friend. Patron john randall. And two new love me three times. Patrons brendan rock and brad wiser. Thank you randy. Brendan brad wiser for your extra love and support at the time of this recording. The show is just one teacher and away from the very first. Be as w t shirt giveaway. Once the show reaches twenty patrons. I will pick patron at random and send them a bible says what t shirt after which they will be a new b. s. w merged giveaway for every five patrons of support the show. That's a chance to win swag every time the show gets five new patrons simply go to patriotdepot dot com forward slash. Bmw the podcast and sign up to be a supporter of the show your episodic ties of a dollar more will give you a chance to win. Prizes gain early access to each episode. Listen to unaired conversations and much more that being said. ww jd. If i do not love or believe in the christian demi-god or his wrathful vengeful father. What happens to me if i decide to say bad things about galway ghost. What will jesus do to me. The christian poster boy for peace wants to throw me into a lake of fire for eternity. The bible says in matthew thirteen forty one forty two that jesus and his anjelica army will toss me and my atheist children into a fiery furnace for our sin of disbelief. Second thesselonians one. Seven through nine says that the christian demi-god we'll be punishing nonbelievers with everlasting destruction. Jesus me wants you to turn the other cheek but clearly. He does not practice what he preaches. Let's start the show. Is there anything in the bible that you yourself have an issue with Took it took you reading the bible to realize that for bad for you on your own. Did ed bundy could be redeemed. God doesn't kill children. What do you think the path you always decimal system and the old animal. He's able to forgive you today. Special guest is the author of do what jesus would do. Welcome to the show. Shelby ceiling Welcome thank you for having me. I appreciate you being here. Appreciated it so tell us a little bit about that book of yours. Well the book is a told my my wife when i finished it. It's the longest sermon ever written Back in back in the dark ages. When i was going to seminary was about the time that W w j d what would jesus do was making the rounds and write. A lot of conversations can seminary about that and i had a serving the church at the time and and we discussed it. A lot and i had several servings on it and i got to thinking about it and i said well. That's an interesting question. But what's the answer. So i took twenty plus years and and the last four years in in writing the book and and decided to finally answer the question And so that's the genesis for do what jesus would do taking it from a question and then putting it into action. What did you find out. I'm just dying to know well It's something. I had had preached on for a long time. And it's it's taking well it did was i took the beatitudes out of matthew. Five and just took that part of the the sermon. It's the that whole series of Verses and chapters is the largest single piece of Literature that we have that jesus spoke at one time. And i said well i can't do the whole thing so i wanted. I looked at it. And i decided that the beatitudes the heart of what jesus i think was really trying to tell us. This is how we should treat one another. you know. be kind to one another Help those who are less fortunate than ourselves and put into action. What jesus ministry was all about reaching out to others one person at a time. So you've taken this one sermon. This one on speaking of jesus and this is this is what you are politics for these jets. They always at the same time. I'm recording if taken this one sermon and this is this is how you are viewing. Jesus you're taking this and this is going to be your Interpretation of his character is and and and you're taking you blessed are the poor or the meek and and people who suffer essentially exactly exactly and I cover a couple of other things. In in the book you know the the power prayer And those kind of things and if if you look back in if you're if you study the words that The bible uses blessed be. I mean that's a blessing. So jesus is really saying you know you're blessed if you if you do these things so that's that's really you know. Today is all about getting something out of it. Not just doing something we seems like. We have to rewarded when i was a kid Mom and dad would say if you clean up your room you can go out to play or you know nowadays if if you If you meet your quota at work then you get a bonus that by doing what jesus asks us to do. We are blessed in ways beyond just getting to go out and play or get a bonus from work. It's it's still a reward though right still get your at the. It is good. It is but the reward is in heaven in that scripture says you know neither moth nor ruskin destroy that blessing and it's permanent Quick question matthew. Five three in luke. Six twenty are kinda different there Matthew five says the blessed are the poor in spirit and luke six says the blessed are you who are poor First off how you poor in spirit at that doesn't sound good and and which one which one is it was talking about poor in spirit or do you have to actually be physically port blessed and is all the people to have a certain mentality. I don't think we have to be poor You know the rich young ruler said. I've done all these things now have to do. And she says sell everything trump on me You know but being tour as in monetary. Since we don't have to do we don't have to be poor are in. That's that's where we are and we ought to be not necessarily camping in it but Realize that there are people beyond us who are in more difficult situations even if we are poor monetarily. No poor in spirit. I believe it Means blessed are those who are poor in spirit for there is the kingdom of heaven. It's it's i'm trying to find. Find it in my book here So i can give you feel. I can tell you exactly. Yeah i said says you know in my book. I say that You know numerous people hear this and cringe. The i speaking of the rich young ruler selling everything and giving it away seems to run counter to everything. They've been taught everything that we've we've understood life to be as far as acquiring things but poor in spirit. I think really means we're humble And we react with humility. Blessed are those who are humble before the lord humble before their neighbor Out and help those less fortunate because when you reach out to somebody you have to. You have to make yourself vulnerable. You're vulnerable to Rejection you're vulnerable to People say all sorts of things about you. Oh well they're just a goody two shoes or whatever but in reality the poor in spirit means that you're willing to To be humbled to be vulnerable to to to be the tool that jesus really asks us to be interesting. So let's go into the merciful part. Let's go to matthew five seven just a little bit down the way Blessed remember civil Do you believe that you always merciful. God well it depends whether you're looking at an old testament new testament god There are plenty of examples in the old testament. Where god y'all way. is a very vengeful guy but you can also find instances in The old testament were guide is very a helpful. Aiding gun As you know. He helped get him with his issues. You helped moses and So to say the god is a vengeful god. I don't think that fits today I think god is a loving caring. God who wants to be an active part in our life. So that's kind of how. I how i look at that. So how do you correlate the vengeful and helpful. How does that work if he's vengeful andy's helpful and it's still loving at that point is he's still good and just if he's vengeful and helpful. Sure you know. God is god is a parent I mean if you discipline your children Are are you vengeful You mean spirited. Are you hateful. No you're you're wanting to to teach your children the right way to be the right things to do and like my mom and dad told me on more than one occasion. This is gonna hurt me more than it's gonna hurt you and you will have don't much different. Though that's a little different we got abraham and isaac. It goes sacrifice your son to me. i mean. That's that's hurtful than just so helpful. How was he helpful. Like which ways. Y'all way helpful like you said. He helped Elijah or Gideon he also helped jessica. He helped the win the battle and was his What the jets. The promise to y'all whe if he won this battle that you would be his that he would sacrifice whatever comes out the door to greet him and his daughter came out the door to greet him and so he sacrificed his daughter to y'all way because y'all way was helpful to him. Yeah he and I think we have to accept that in the sense that it. It's it is what it is but you're looking into the new testament you know where were god is Love you carrying gone the parts in there too that contradict that as well I mean yes. There are some good things in there. You've got the sermon on the mount. He says some nice things in there. some humanitarian ideas But none of that can be found or none of that is like it is not able to be found elsewhere. You know what i mean. We don't need a book where we got sacrificing one's daughter to To eleven god because he helped win the battle. Yeah i mean. We don't need that help and help book right. Yeah that's that's that's hard to. That's hard to hear. And hardly except that god is a is a helping and carrying god You know it's the same way. When when god kicked adam and eve out of out of eden you know he could have just closed the whole book right then and there and he did punish them saying you're going to work by the sweat of your brow and and your childbearing is going to be difficult and Y'all these other affirmed these infirmities rather sneaks would eat dust. Snakes don't eat dust We've we've found a way around the child pain. The pain from childbirth epidurals There's there's a lot of different ways that that curse that he originally did was ineffective so even then then trees in the garden where we don't need the trees in the garden. Why tempt people. Why tempt people. That don't know right from wrong. Why put something in there. That you know is going to cause the fall of man That's not very helpful either. I mean if we're going to hell relocate this shoots. This tree is really bad. Some keep it away from you so that you're not tempted to eat it because i know you don't know right from wrong. Good from evil. So i'm gonna take it away from stored somewhere maybe on the moon or whatever you know not in the middle of a garden protected just hey don't touch and then then you get so mad. He can't forgive everybody he has to. He has to have bloodshed. He was nine twenty two thousand shedding of blood. There is for no forgiveness. He's unable to forgive people for touching fruit one time one time and was like you know your toddler came in and did something like okay. Don't do that. I said don't do that. No look i said don't do that. No it was just once that he's able to forgive without bloodshed at that point the worst help i mean his help was jesus i guess ex- exactly i mean nobody. We are unable by ourselves to atone for everything we've done And avalon hard in his theory of atonement. I know i'm getting a seminary here. That anna large in his theory of their tone. -ment said that god is love that is the essence of god is love and you know it took me a while to get my head around that Because i said god it's gotta be more than just love you know he's and but i finally got to the point where i said. Yeah it is love. God loves us. He cares for us. He he made a way to Give us free choice will And then when we do make mistakes he gives us the grace of forgiveness if we ask for forgiveness so that that is really is says a lot about who got is what would be more helpful if my my one of my kids i have two boys one of my boys did something bad and someone told him not to do and which one would be more helpful a if i told him to write me a note on what he could have done better in that situation how could have acted differently or what he could have done or sacrifices brother so that able. I'm able to forgive him you know. Well i mean it's common sense. Killing something for forgiveness is gross and ridiculous. But that's exactly what god allowed to happen. He allowed the sacrifice of christ so that through his shedding of blood we were then reconciled unto god. He sacrificed the ultimate thing. That could be sacrificed And where's the sun. Now where's jesus just with is is is. We're so he has jesus with him at all times. How long was jesus goal. Well jesus has gone for for a proxy depending on again getting a little bit. Seminary here are thirty. Three or thirty two thirty six years Depending on how you want to calculate You know vce versus ad and he's an eternal. He is an eternal being it. John one one says in the beginning word with In the beginning god and the word was with god and and So y'all we didn't have jesus for thirty three years. Let's say thirty three years. Y'all we did not up in heaven or wherever they live Sitting next to him standing going to dinner is going to see movies. He didn't have them with him but he was on earth. Which looked y'all way is able to see in an end interact with at. What point did he actually give up his son well I don't think he ever actually gave him up a except on on the cross says mike allowed us to die well four for the betterment of humanity because without christ's sacrifice we are incapable as human beings a be reconciled into god on our We're not able to. We can't stop him from being right at us no matter what you do unless something well no someone has already died. Dry allows us to be in. God's grace because of what christ sacrificed with. Yeah yeah he was nine hundred or two without the shedding of blood. There is no forgiveness. This is you always rule. Jeff daughter was sacrificed to jawa. Y'all we could have helped address situation and maybe stepped in and said. Hey let's do a chicken instead but he allowed the sacrifice of a child. Why do you think that is. I'm going to answer that with the something that i tell people sometimes when it seems that i don't have a good answer and i don't know that there is a good answer with. That's a good question. When i get to having our last dot white you go this direction of the other direction all right. Well i'm gonna go with. Do you communicate with the alway. Now can you ask him. Can he give you an answer. Well i've got answers prayers. And like i told my prisoners the sometimes the answer is yes. We're overjoyed and all right. I got it An sometimes the answer is no and we get all bummed out and sometimes the answer is wait not yet in which case I get a lesson in patience in. I sometimes get very frustrated with now. It's it's very interesting. How do you decipher his answers. From random happenstances. Well i don't believe in predestination that god you know is saying. I know what you're going to do tomorrow. Although the terms does you know goes right. He he he. He knows what is going to happen. for years and year. Put it like this in as a as a young kid in high school i always wanted a shelby mustang. I thought it'd be kind of neat to drive around the car with my name on it. Yeah and then after Well into my adult life while serving churches My wife's talked finally talked me into taking some dancing lessons. So i think she got an answer for their. They actually took him In took her dancing afterwards. But i also had prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed for this shelby mustang. I finally got it. And i was you know. Read just candy apple red and white stripes a whole nine yards And then about two years later. I had a back surgery and began to experience a lot of difficulty getting in and out of the car. I'm fall into it and almost have to crawl out of it. So i took that as an answered prayer but i also took it as okay I gave it to you But things change. So it's it's time to adjust and move on so yes. I thought the i talked to god all the time. And i asked him for things all the time asking him for wisdom and insight and Who car though. Y'all we didn't give you the car. I mean he's not like here's the keys in. I mean you did that. That was your actions. Your your you had to be involved in some point. Yeah so how. Do you attribute that to just because you ask for. I mean i could ask george carlin for all kinds of things. In in in fifty percent of the time it'll happen fifty percent of the time it won't happen doesn't mean george carlin's up anywhere doing anything. It's it's like a lot people. Ask me all the time about lottery tickets. I pray for the winning numbers. And i said well good luck. Yeah my grand. Bring those winning numbers. Since i can remember. It hasn't happened. No you're you're quite right. I my wife. And i'm head to make the decision to get the car but the way it came about was the car was infinitely cheaper than what we could've afforded so people say well you just. You just fell into that. But puddle came out smelling like a rose a But god presents us with opportunities whether we accept those opportunities or not is is another question. again it goes back to guide in giving us three will So yes got answered the prayer. I got the car a couple of years. Later due to help issues had to give up the car You know as some people say what the lord gives us the lord taketh away. But i don't know that. I wanna go quite. I don't wanna blame him for my back issues Who do you blame for the back issues. The army good tangible real evidence based cool as long as that satan. I was a little curious. Spent twenty years in the military jumping on and off the fools carrying heavy wreck. Sex going up and down hills running more than you probably ought to ever in your life. Yeah yeah awesome all right well good answer thank you i kinda wanted to dive back into the whole. What would jesus do. The ww j d. You know and i was a kid. That was everywhere. Everybody had a bumper stickers shirts and so popular. But what. I find when i read the bible. The answer to that question is disturbing. What would jesus do. You've got not just the when he turned over the tables in the temple not just the cursing of the fig tree for no reason just because it was out of season. It's its fault killed it. You know these are angry. This is anger stuff. And he's supposed to be finless angers sin isn't it i don't know You've got all that right. So if jesus is angry one point that means he's not really senlis so that kind of contradicts that but i want to get to the. What would jesus do if someone didn't love him back or believe in him. What would jesus near the cheek. What scripture tells us that at at the appointed place in time. He's going to separate. You know the week from the chats so to speak the they'll be those in the book of life and and those will be called home to him and then there will be those who are not in the book of life and you know it like scripture says You know the the gate is closed knocking out the door. I hear you. But i don't know you so again. We have free will we. We can choose whether or not to accept Priced into our life and accept that. He's our believer Our our our lord and master rather and there's a A unique theology called The theology of restoration where Some people say i. I'm a believer You know been baptized the whole nine yards. You know i'm. I'm okay with god and then something happens Well just take my myself for example when. I was thirteen My my last visit with my grandmother was not a very pleasant one. She you know she got the Castrol oil outer cod liver oil or women wasn't and said here you go and i said i don't like you i never want to see you again and Before we saw each other again she passed. So i signed man. Yeah that that that's tough. So i went to my pastor and said you know this is what happened. Can you give me some answers. Well he gave me some answers I chose to either not believable. More didn't understand them at the time and spent probably the next twenty years saying yeah the church who needs god And at that time. I and this is my personal understanding. Is that if if If i had if something had happened in iodide during that period of time then the scales might have tipped The other way But giving the the theology or the theory of restoration. When i said okay. God i need you back in my life I'm i'm yours then. I didn't have to spend another twenty years going back in a tony for all of that stuff. God's love god's grace god's forgiveness with sufficient to say. Okay if i were to pass in that breath then the skills with tip younger direction so i think that's a long way around or perhaps of answering your question But there's going to be a choice make there's also the The the church the universalist church which says that You know everybody will eventually end up in heaven anyway. that's gonna empty out know and everybody will be restored and not been so yes not in the bible. I know there's a permanent place there. And so i. I really don't believe that will ever happen. I mean scripture is pretty specific you know it says satan and his followers will be bound and thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone. That's after all that's after y'all we release prison to people right. Yeah also not helpful and all that is not a very helpful thing. I mean i know he's going to go out and to see people caused them to be eternally punished. But i'm going to release satan anyways. Jussawai can stop them at the end and show how cool i am. That's how i see the whole part there. It's just weird but you know not helpful again but we go back to scripture. I see revelation. Twenty one eight tells me that unbelievers. We're going to be burning in. If y'all way jesus of the same person than jesus is doing all of this Second thesselonians one seven through nine. Jesus will bring fire and everlasting destruction to unbelievers matthew. Thirteen forty one. Thousand forty two. Jesus will throw me as an unbeliever into a fiery furnace just for sending The sin of unbeliev which is weird So i don't see this as Helpful or awesome so the new testament is not the best either. There's a lotta stuff in there. That tells me that. I deserve to be eternally punished. Simply just for the the the unbeliev that i have for not believing in seeing and Following along so how does that go. That's that's true but the good news. Is that if you do believe even in your sleep on the cross at the eleventh hour the fifty nine minutes said you know lord I want to be with you in paradise. And he's an christ said you will be with me in paradise at eleventh hour the fifty ninth minute that at the before that last breath he forgave all of that. All of the chiefs is issues Since crimes whatever and welcomed him into into paradise heaven. You it really is like i mean. Paradise is so subjective. Honestly what do you think heaven is. Well you're scripture says. It's a wonderful place you know this sees like crystals and streets of gold. And i don't like all the refined gold is naughty. Change it because that sounds terrible. All that gold is way too much for me. As i tell people i will be happy with the doghouse. Made out of out of nadi. Would you know man the backstreet someplace. Well revelation twenty two five. Says that there's not going to be any night in heaven and i for one. Enjoy the nighttime Going out and looking at the stars but in heaven is not going to be any of that. Because y'all way says he's going to be a light that never goes away so that doesn't it also says there will be no pain and suffering you. Give me no pain and suffering. But i don't get a nighttime permanent. Nightly jesus nightlight won't turn off a revelation twenty two three through five. There's going to be people who are in heaven are going to have you. Always name on their foreheads. Serving him all day and night Again not very fun doesn't sound like fun. you know. i mean you get a sacrifice. There's no pain and suffering but you're going to be a servant to this The the eternal light. Bright for the three colonel. You know as as someone once said. I forget who i would rather serve in in heaven than raining hill serving. Hell no wait rule in hell than than serve in heaven. I'd rather ruling hill. But it doesn't sound like fun to me when i was a kid. He's going to be a blast. You're gonna do all day like is there board games up. There's or like Concerts concerts like what in the world is going to happen for eternity. I'm hoping there's there's some nice golf courses most fishing hole poor fish. I you think. Kill fish heaven release catch-and-release. Oh poor putting three. We don't even need them. It's like when deer hunting. I i. I had my rifle when out. Oh dark too early in the morning when most sane people are sleeping reason. My behind off Sitting in some tree waiting for bambi to come by and You know. I you know three or four deer walk below me and i just fit. Hi how you doing. I was just enjoying being in the woods in the moment of away from all the chaos and and hectic life that is Yield that we have every day. So yeah that sounds no. It wasn't no fighting. I kevin's going to be a blast. Yeah i don't know do you think there's there's evil. I'll take your cable when i i don't know i i can't i can't man i won't i won't be joining in that one even if i was welcomed up there. I don't think i would do it. I don't think i could serve and and Praise and worship a documented child killer for eternity. It's just not my. I well as as people say that. That's that's you're right. Well my option is. I don't want to love and worship this being so now what's going to happen. Jesus is gonna to come along and say you made this dishes decision. So now i'm going to throw you into hell for eternity for not loving or believing. Do you think that's a fair. We don't we all have to stand before god or jesus in answer for the things we've done lord knows i've done several things in my life You know that. I'm not real proud of you. Know if it were possible say Let's hide this one in the darkest put that a sort of doesn't find it. Yeah it'd be out exactly magically racer or something in drake right awesome But i really believe that you win. I stand face to face with god. He'll say you know you've done all these things and yet you believe in are willing to serve me. You search me on earth as a as a staple center Welcome home all is forgiven and go and enjoy the rest of your turn. Ity with god For me it. There's just such blessing that i'll get to see I'll get to see my unborn child that my wife and i lost And i'll get to see my My friends and family that have long since cavs. I'm looking for to that. Yeah sounds nice. But don't forget that. Jesus nightlight that. Don't turn off and that got to serve him your servant. You don't you don't get to do what you want your servant at this point. They're there to serve yali well as him worship him. If if you if you serve god then you're doing what you want anyway Your servants of god. Then you got you. When christ told the disciples. I didn't come to rule. I came to serve And you know go you. He tells the disciples go forth then and make disciples of all the earth tell teaching them commands that i've given you so he's he's telling them early on he's not the servant or he's not the master he's the servant and if we want to do what he did then we have to become the servant and go forth and care for those around him or around us rather Doing as jesus did now do. I believe that. I have the ability to Divide you know. Three fish and five loaves and fi. Five thousand people Probably not again. If i if i had to think of a mustard seed i could tell the mountain to jump up and go through itself in the ocean. The how much they do. I hear that that's such a terrible thing you know. Christians are gonna feel inadequate because their faith isn't working they don't have faith small enough as a mustard seed. 'cause they had that they can move a mountain but they don't there never good enough and that is sad to me that jesus would make them feel that way. Make you guys feel that way it. Just it doesn't make any sense to me. That very encouraging. If only you could do it but you can't because you know you can't. You can't move mountains. No are you able to choose in if you don't wanna serve anymore if you'd like to turn off the lights rub the name off your forehead. Lucifer certainly made that choice. Free will in heaven. Well i would. I would say that the there is. I mean loose. Loose for was an archangel. I mean he was. He was on the same level as as a as michael was And your he made that choice. He and a bunch of his liking flowers made the choice not to continue to serve god not to continue to worship god not to continue to be one with god and sin right. Well that's probably the ultimate soon. So you're able to the ultimate sin in heaven. I think that. I think that's probably true. I mean her place if you can do the ultimate sinning while they're well it's it's all the ultimate place in that the Excuse me for getting tongue tied here place in in that. This is something that i think. You've got to want to be part of a if you don't want to be part of it. Then god's not going to force you to be part of it because to force you to be part of it would be almost be held in heaven So if you don't want to be there well he'll take the down elevator he's going to. He's going to make a a a separation you know. You chose not to be part of my family to to serve and Bear witness bear fruit on earth. Therefore i you know. I'm gonna i'm gonna send you on your way you. Can you take the dow down elevator. And if you choose later on that this is not what you want you know. You don't wanna serve him anymore. Well then i don't think he's going to force you to stay there. And but why don't you make that decision. That's the ultimate decision. You're not coming back across the other side. If i just make little cenis do little things instead of trying to leave. What if i just send a bunch of times Eat shellfish or mixed fabrics awar-. What if i lie. What if i just start lion going to happen to me. Well you got thrown out that that that's another good question able to have layers of heaven and people who sin the ultimate shin. I just don't see that as a place. Well if it's not going to be free of all that stuff and then if like you said if it's if it's not free of all that stuff if you don't have this free will then it's a prison and that's what all the walls and gates are for. I think is to keep people in. That's where you and i see the same coin different sides. I see that as burning wage. Type thing yeah but not completely walled because Lazarus as you walking by a great chasm was able to You know visit her converse with someone in hell and You to to me that. That's that would be difficult to Be walking along the streets of heaven and then walked by the chasm. Look down look down into hell and see somebody. I knew Who is in hell. That would be hard for me And so do you think that's you don't think that's possible. You don't think you're able to see people. Your loved ones inhale. that didn't that didn't believe her or whatever. You think you're able to see that from heaven. Scripture says you are prescription says lazarus was able to communicate with person. Yes i i'm hoping i i'm i'm hopeful that you only that as i wandered the streets ahead and the i'm sh- i have my strong enough that i'm happy with where i am. I don't need to borrow in the us or any troubles. And and i'll just stay over like a say around my wooden dog house in the back corner. Heavy someplace You know some people are going to have these huge mansions and things. And i say i'm hoping for a dog house in the back corner right And would help you. Wouldn't it cause you sorrow to see someone you loved and hel- again. I don't know that you could that we will have those human emotions in in In heaven see you won't be able to feeling you're watching a loved one suffer. You'll be able to feel empathy or or sorrow or anything. I don't think so You says we're scripture says. We're giving marriage on earth with not in heaven we never die in heaven We'll feel no sorrow. No no pain no suffering in feel you feel happiness but not anything. That's negative so be shiny happy people. Well i i suppose we define happiness. What's happiness exactly to is looking a you know a bunch of flowers in the yard. And some people's have mrs i'm in a shelby mustang. Hundred horsepower indeed. Indeed yeah no. Yeah is definitely subjective so when you get to heaven is it going to be your own personal happiness and then how is it your own personal happiness if you can see people in hell that are suffering and burning and dying and coming back and burning again The attornal punishment thing. I'm go ahead. But i don't think we're going to worry about those human emotions. Those human feelings sadness and misery. it will be different. That's not you that's not you. What your emotions make. You might empathy my passion all that shenanigans all the stuff. I've done that. That makes me all the shenanigans on through. You know all the suffering whatever if this is what makes me me so i'm gonna get to have it. I'm not gonna have any suffering or anything. I'm just going to be a happy robot. Well when i get to heaven you know. I'll tell you another story. From a one of my parisioners. She was blind. And she was paraplegic and she had diabetes and she was old and she was confined to a residential care facility and yet. She had a smile on her face every time. I went to see her. And i said why. Are you so happy. Look at your condition your elderly. You're in a you're in a residential care facility. You're you're a paraplegic. You're blind how can you be so happy. And she said well. Jesus promised me that. When i get to heaven i will be able to see my husband again. I will have to brand new legs and we will be able to dance for a long time so here that i can't. I can't help your that. You know when. I get to have my back. Pain is going to be gone. I won't be you know so it won't be so difficult for me to get around my. You might stroke have bothered. Won't bother me anymore all those things. It looks very wishful thinking to me. It's it's like here. Life is pain. Take this pill. Life will be better when you take this pill. Oh see just look this these goggles and it'll be okay but life is pain. You know. I mean no matter. Placebo or wishful. Thinking is gonna end that even in the end you know. There's there's there's no real evidence or proof or or or anything for heaven for any kind of Heavenly place have anything we die. We all we know. Is we die in our brains go. That's just shut down and we w decompose and we go to war and food and all the food and all that you're exactly right. Yeah so when you add on these these magical places after death that that have no evidence. I can literally insert any magical invisible place that you can't detect right now and you're yeah so you've got a fantasy island. Nothing nothing with real on the island right. Yeah that's a little different. Yeah you know what i'm saying. It's thomson blessed are is jesus said blessed are those who have who believes in have not seen. And that's we we. We always come back to that. That you're thomas said unless i put my finger in the mail unless i put my hand in his side unless i see for myself i will not believe. And then about one of the original disciples bright but what happened and did jesus show himself Yeah he said exactly showed up and he got to do the things that he needed to believe. Y'all way has yet to show up to do anything. Scripture says that when he does the the sky will part angels will say and we will see him come down in all his glory and then it'll be too late to say. Oh i'm very helpful. Why don't tell me when it comes down to tell me beforehand. Hey come on. this is me. I'm a real person a real deity or whatever you know. I'm here just so you know. And then ten years from now when we come back and destroy everybody who doesn't believe me that would be a little more helpful at least right. Well what exactly i mean. What what you're talking about is like You remember the cartoon strip pc yuppie ucla washington across the desert one day. And he's looking up to have any says. If you're really up there show me a sign in the next screen. It says there's of marquee like a marquee. that's fallen down. Says i'm up here. How's that You know we we we. We look for god's presence in the world. I think we have to sometimes look introspectively. But he's all around us. I mean You'll science today is getting very close to plane guide with all these cloning things going on but who could who could take two simple little cells and create you create me create. Well you were created created in your brothers belly. God didn't do it. God didn't put any cells together the natural process sniffing the biological fact skipping the the biological needs to put the two together yes Yeah but you know. Y'all we know all i needed. I think there's a little divine guidance in there and getting the ex and the wider hooked up together and create a something but again again if you look around if if you have an active life or if you just pray occasionally and then you know it's like when i was you know running away from god more than writing to guide Yours about the same time. My grandmother passed i. I felt a calling to the ministry. That's it. I got nothing to say. Nobody wants to hear what whatever i have to say anyway. Well it took me thirty. Took out thirty years to get me to seminary from that point but he eventually got me there in a review. My life's journey to The experiences i have that allow me to help. Other people in their understanding of who they are in relationship with god who god is in relationship with them I mean i was in. I was in desert storm. And all of the statis- statisticians said that My particular unit would suffer one hundred and twenty six percent casualties within the first twenty. Four hours well. It doesn't take a real mathematician. I could even figure that map out. I was going to get hurt. Yeah but as it turned out we suffered no casualties And i was into the chaos of this site that we were having with the republican guards unit. That a sense of calmness just came down over me and and just like in the movies everything. Kinda shifted the slow motion. And i felt god's presence and And and felt that he was creating with me. That i would be okay but i was going to go home and that. He had a purpose for me when i got home yet. Did you promise to sacrifice. Came to the door when you got home from battle. No okay gotta keep those promises you know. Be careful what you promised. Yeah you know it's it's kind of like. Oh lord if you just make sure this top won't give me a ticket. I never go speed and again in my life at least for the next five minutes right britos. i promise. I won't eat that. That street card again. Please get me through this. I'm gonna eat again. Don't worry before we end this and we're almost out of time here but i wanted to touch on That eternal punishment one last time i wanted to do you. Do you feel you deserve eternal punishment for your whiteout moments in life for those little mistakes. You know that aren't like severe nobody died. You didn't slaughter anybody you know. But they're bad enough to where it would have been like. Jesus says young. Throw you in health if you die right now. So do you think deserve that. Eternal forever punishment because of those moments i think i have done enough things wrong T deserve that punishment certainly plow the time. That's a really long time. That's i mean don't give sentences for forever you're going to be in your fervor know until you die okay. Well you're dead now. You don't have to be in here anymore. You can do it buried somewhere but you always know. I'm gonna make sure you don't die and you're stuck in here forever. Why because you didn't love me didn't show me enough respect. No respect little rodney dangerfield mill respect. There you go get no respect there. Now here's the rest of. Here's the rest of the answer though while i may deserve that. God's grace is to forgive me a all of those things and open his arms to me like the prodigal son returning to his father. Yeah and that you know. That's where i i you know. We have a choice we can either choose to live in the darkness or live in the light of quote. These are always choices though. These are his choices. He set these up. He said this one or this one he didn't give me an option c. He didn't give me an option. Abcd of nothing it was either. You love me or you. Burn in hell forever. And then he says not bad. You didn't love me. I give you plenty of opportunity to love me which you chose not to. So you chose hell. I don't think that's a good thing. I don't think that's very helpful. Loving or merciful. Well young the the odd purses if you love me and you keep my commands and You know then. I welcome you with open arms. And that's where. I think you know we humanity lives in a world of black and white. We like to say we live in the shades of grey. But if you just boil it all down it's either right or it's wrong. We're you're either speeding or not. Well i'm only going one mile oak. Well is that speeding or is that not speeding speeding. We live in a world of black and white. We live in a reading world right in night that speeding comes with a finite penalty a finite punishment. It's not a forever thing we don't have forever. Well schmitz why. Because it's inhumane to punish somebody forever for one thing i guess. Well how many. How many times have we said i will never forgive you for something. Yeah yeah it's called an emotion. Yeah but doesn't really happen. It doesn't have eventually somebody dies or something gives gives in y'all wait no it's forever. This is four ever and actually turn eighty so. I don't think just got also said that he would visit his upon you to through the seventh generation right and gets angry because people don't that that's not loving either. Yeah that that's a long time or messiah. Christ stead if you know me you know my father and if you love me my you My father and if you keep my commands then. I will tell my father that i know you. That's not unconditional love that is conditional love what exactly it is conditional. You'd have to put something out If it was unconditional love than we could just walk through like do whatever we want and break the the good benefit at the end. Unfortunately that's not. That's not how things on Joe john wesley One of the founders of the methodist church that that there's a thing called christian perfection and as a methodist minister. That was one of the things. I had to one of the questions i had. The answer was in my ordination. Was you believe that you will reach christian perfection and well everybody knows yep sick yes but in reality i i do believe that at some point in time in my life i will be able to reach that christian perfection and that's not being a perfect person never doing anything wrong not lying cheating stealing that speeding not not not not not It means that at some point it may be the very last the eleventh hour fifty nine minutes fifty nine second reached the point of my understanding that we are all god's children in all deserving of his love and care not just from him but from me as well and that's from this. This book is poignant at this point in time with all the all the stress all the turmoil the hatred going on in the world today in our country as well we hate just because you red versus blue pink versus green. Whatever a job. And that's not what god asks us to do. He asks us to care for one. Another those eight or nine days listed there Are are are very specific. And some allah the discussion. Christ had with the pharisees when they said which is the greatest commandment and god says to love the lord your god with all your heart soul mind being everything in you and the second later on l. The first is to love your neighbor as i have loved you. That's a great great message at its. That's very humanist message but the whole burning forever part is not very humanist message is not very nice not very kind very merciful. Very loving But we'll leave it at that. We'll even i got to get going here. He's jets driving me that's anyways Let's go ahead and tell us where we can find your book and we'll in from there. You can find my book on amazon. Barnes and noble or you. The publisher outskirts dot or outskirts. Press dot com And i would love you to to to to read it and enjoy it and Let it speak to you And i wish all of you a a great day in god's richest blessings and michael. Thank you so much for having me on. I love to do this again with you sometime. If if absolutely had a blast man thank you so much lincoln the show notes for to find your book so everybody can find it there but Absolutely good luck half. Stay safe out there. And we'll keep in touch. And that's all the podcasts. There is for you today. Thanks for listening if you missed the announcement at the beginning of the show. The very first s. w. t shirt giveaway is only one patron away from getting started. Once the show reaches twenty patrons. I will pick a patron at random and send them a bible. Says what t shirt simply go to patriot dot com forward slash w. the podcast and scientific supporter of the show your episodic tides of a dollar more will give you a chance to win. Prizes gain early access to each episode. Listen to unaired. Conversations unlock the patron feet and much more thanks to the cosmic powers of the internet. It is now possible to buy me a beer or coffee online. Simply go to buy me a coffee. Dot com forward slash. 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