Saw bones is a show about medical history and nothing the hosts as should be taken as medical advice, or opinion, it's refund. Can't you just have fun for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery, boil we think you've earned it just sit back relax and enjoy a moment of distraction from that weird growth. Your worth it. Right. Is about the books. Well. Say what? Hello, everybody on. Welcome to Sahlins misguided medicine. Go hosts Justin McElroy. And I'm sitting Maccarone. The same. That's about the same school. It's about the same time, we are, if you live in Huntington, West Virginia, and you wanna see concert, you're gonna come to Cincinnati. Kind of like a home way from home. If you had concerts at home. That's true. If you'd asked me when I was like a teenager. What do you know about Cincinnati? I would have said, Bogart's rogue arts. Shows. Jimmy Buffett plays river been member year. It's why I facilitated Sindhis, dad meeting, Jimmy Buffett and basically becoming the greatest on law, and we're in the history of all time. No big deal. It's the Queen city. I don't need to tell you that. And you didn't even mention this, Murph ice cream kings aisles were prized to kings island. Heard they're getting some faceless on mainstreet. Putting a little funding into that bringing the anti cars back. Yup. Bring back to writer and we'll talk. Anyway, I started talking about what do we want to do a show on in Cincinnati Justin's? First suggestion was we'll chilly. And. Inexplicably we've done a show on chilly. That's kinda podcast. This is we've already done chilly in our medical history. I suggested a lot of wack things that we're only tangentially related to Cincinnati. Yes. And so I just started looking into the history of Cincinnati, and I found a nickname that the city used to have. Maybe has gone away through the years because I think people weren't a big fan of maybe it's hot as ever and it's back, we have no idea not locals that, apparently, you're fine cities to be known as poor offering. So Sydney, here's that. And she decided to do it episode on chicken, Ella. Okay. I mean, when you think of pigs, of course, you think of eating raw pig's, and how that could make you sick. Right. It's what everybody thinks about just catching all Wilbur and getting a big bite. Now, let me preface with before I start talking about worms in your food, that this is incredibly rare and almost never happens in the US anymore. So this is not something to worry about unless you're a big fan of consistently eating raw pig and other wild game. Then you might but otherwise, don't worry about it. But it used to be a bigger problem. And so I thought we could talk a little bit about chicken and for everybody who's like I know I shouldn't eat raw pork. But I don't know why this is why. So as we already alluded to Cincinnati used to be the biggest work producing city in the world in the eighteen hundreds and meat was packed, and shipped down the Ohio river and the city obviously, was called Coppola's because of that, and that is why one of your fine local delicacies that used to be called strip Groots. Or dunking grits? But now you call ghetto. Sort of the connection there, I think Guetta is way better name, by the way, then Dunkin grits. I'm on the fence on. Both extremely good dunking grits, but get us good. So I'll eat that cine told me that Cincinnati is like, the number one, producer of Guetta. Not nice. They're also the number one consumer of it. That's reasonable I love that is self contained ecosystem of get into it. Is good. And I like I like pork sausage votes. Spices, what are we got? We got Guetta Justin. So you you're probably aware that pork has been has had certain religious prohibitions throughout history as to who should consume it, and who shouldn't, and there are lots of reasons for that. But one thought throughout ancient history is that it may be also due to the fact that people would observe someone eating pork back before we had proper cooking techniques and preservation techniques. And then they might get really sick. And so that would be a really good reason to say, like, don't don't eat fig. If about idea, there are lots of other reasons, but that's that's one one possibility. The reason is trick Annella now trick Annella is, is kind of worm, it's a kind of roundworm and it's actually a genus of multiple different. Roundworms different species. The way your eyes slide up. You used to look at me that way, the way is whenever you get to talk about worms. Parasites. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's just trying to live their little lives, and they happen to cause some damage in there while they're doing. They don't mean to. Anyway. So there, there are seven different species that can cause problems for humans. There's one in particular trick, Annella sprawl which causes most disease in humans. But there there's a variety of roundworms that can cause problems. And we always associate him with pigs like we always say donate corker, under court, because you'll get a worm of some sort. But there's actually a variety of animals that could cause problems to pigs kinda get like an unfair Shakir because some more recent cases have been because of horses eater horses bears eating Roberts. Mousse or wild boar measure, getting sick and you're have you done anything totally buck wild lately? I did eat raw bear. Is that frowned on the medical community? Really up to date on the literature. I, I know that this is always been an easy thing for me. Because I've always been a fan of meat that maybe be more cooked than everybody else likes it. Like I like I like my meat done sorry. But generally speaking, if you're not sure how long you should cook me just keep cooking. Does that bear is that bear done? I don't know. Let's keep going. Just be really sure taking chances. So what happens is the larva of the worm are in there actually in the muscles. So they're in the me that you're eating, and they're in these little cysts. And because the meat wasn't cooked thoroughly. They're still viable in there. So they're just these little cysts and your me and you're eating them. And once they get into your stomach some of the chemicals in there, the peps in and the acid, the gastric acid can start helping these open up and blossom into little baby worms. Then can you know burrow into the walls of your small intestine where they grow into adult worms. Yes. Good. Yes. A couple millimeters, big and not even that big of a worm. Welcome aboard friends. Towards route. We'll fellow. Massive tapeworms or anything. Little worm. Fun for the weekend a weekend worm. Kids. So they grown Grover the course of four weeks. And then they can start releasing their own larva. It's mice and to your grow up so fast. Don't they? Thank. Little larva can migrate on rooms. Alarm. It can migrate all over the place and mainly into your muscles, sad, part you wanted to say at home. This is going to go wherever they're going to go better. If they stayed in your GI track. What I tell them naturally. Exit. At some point kids don't know what it's like out there stand the GI track with Papa. Coppa will protect you. But they get the kidneys actually characters over there. They don't typically go to the kidneys. It was Chuck, I'm to say. Happy to barest me in front of Cincinnati. They mainly like to just go to like your skeletal muscles. So they'll just be in your arms or your legs, or just in your big muscles, where my big muscles. Your Popeye muscles. I'm in trouble. They love Ono these worms love, big muscles. Donates. Hoisted by my own petard. So if you only get a few larva that travel around to your muscles, and by a few I mean, less than ten per gram of, muscle would be a few, which still seems like a loss. You might not ever know that anything has happened to you. You may just have these have some more. Yeah. Just have these insisted larva in your own muscle. They get there and some species makes us some don't the ones you probably would get do. And they just kind of insist and chill in your muscle for a long time. If you do get a larger infection then you will have some symptoms. The first stage is when they're in your stomach, when they're in the intestinal stage and then you're going to get like, what you think of is general like I have a parasite symptoms. My stomach hurts, and I'm nauseous, and I'm Tom ity, and I have lots of diarrhea, lots of diarrhea interesting. I feel like it's one of those situations where some diarrhea is lots of diarrhea. I've got diarrhea but it's a manageable amount. As a member of the macaroni family. I've found. Relative term. Once they get to your muscles. They heard if you get enough of them in their just you, you won't notice it, if you get enough in your muscles than they can start causing pain and weakness, and tenderness. And I mean, if you get a lot in there, you can be bedridden because of the pain of all the little sisters in your in your muscles. You get fevers. There are some rare cases where people get really sick that it has been fatal throughout history. But it's not commonly that serious, but it can't infecting like your heart muscle. And obviously, that's that's big deal that can inflame your central nervous system. So in rare cases, it's been deadly, but most of the time that doesn't happen, most of the time, these little SIS migrate to your muscles. It might hurt a lot at first. But then after they insist they start to calcified over time and they die and then they're just there. And that's. That's it. Story. We have found them, we know that they have existed with humans for very long longtime, because we've found these little cysts these little calcified cysts in a thirty two hundred year old mummy that we dug up, and we look through the muscles, and found all these little these little white things that were opened up and found to be trick analysis. So at some point this Egyptian dude ate raw meat of some sort and got trick, Annella bear. It would have been probably either would have been a member of the upper class, or somehow societas with the upper class because otherwise, he wouldn't have had access to meet. That's the only thing they named him. Werman mccotter. Mccotter ate meat, and they don't know why. Because I think he doesn't look like the upper class, but he did get some me because we have all these systems for whom. On that grind. Get your mate. Hello, my friends. I hope you are. Well, I know I am. How are you? What are you have to own me? Well, I'm getting ready to head out on the road to Nashville Indianapolis to do some shows out there just finished up packing, and wanted to get you this episode of saw bones to enjoy now this was recorded in beautiful Cincinnati, Ohio, to show up there and up here in join it anyway, we have sponsors this week. Of course, I have his casper, if you want a better night's sleep. You don't need to shop around, you don't need to go to some boring whack mattress store. You just need to head on over to casper, five years ago. They revolutionized the mattress industry by making it easier than ever to buy premium foam mattress and today, they're building, I met legs Z with a new line of mattresses that combined. The best of both worlds include. Introducing. Jingle, I wrote for the hybrid collection by casper. A claim foam layers now available spraying the secrets out, folks, they makes foam and springs. Can you believe it? They sent us one and I could not believe it is an incredibly comfortable bed, and I, it's just staggering to me, honestly. And I went so long without sleeping on. It was a real tragedy in my life that will haunt me until the day I die, you can be sure of your purchase of a cash for mattress with their one hundred nights, risk-free sleep on it trial. So get fifty dollars towards select mattresses by visiting casper dot com slash Sol bones and using the code Sauber owns at checkout. That's casper dot com slash solvents and use the code term saw bones at checkout. My cat just bit me. Did you hear that? Terms and conditions apply. The applies not related to my cat. Just my cabinet me probably hungry lawn to feed Fiji. In a second sich fix is our next sponsor. It's always such a treat waiting for the stitch fix box. What's vic's? Well, yeah input your sizes, your style your per. References maybe occasions, you have coming up clothing, wise, your budget for individual clothing items. Whatever you give your stylus all this information, and they're going to whip together a beautiful box clothes just for you. It's catered to your own personal style, and that's the silence of wristed fix are doing. And they're going to ship you box close you keep the stuff you want. That's the only pay for shipping changes returns. It's always free. You only pay for this he keeps so really, you can't lose. So get started today at six com slash saw bones, and you're gonna get an extra twenty five percent off when you keep everything in your box that stitch fix dot com slash Sol. Bones stitch fix dot com slash Sol. That's easy to remember folks. I don't ever try it out freshen up that wardrobe summer's here, go get it. Thank you, sorry for the interruption hope you check out the sponsors. And now without further ado back to the show oh, there's a there record throughout history of diseases that kind of sound like they were probably chicken, Ella, even if we didn't know that nobody wrote like, oh, we found worms in their muscles, because nobody looked for them. But if you go back to like four or four e you find this wrecked record of a disease with severe dysentery, and there was a pain all over the body, and it was like, in certain parts of, of Sicily. And it sounds a lot like it was probably chicken, Illo modern day, scholars, thought, well, maybe this was a big outbreak of trick Annella. You find other times where there was something called the English sweat a pseudo. Souder anglicans. That was my wrestling name. And you find instances of this other fifteenth sixteenth, century. And the thought is that these might be outbreaks of trick. No. Somebody got like some sort of they brought down some wild game or something like shared it with a big part of their village, and everybody ate this meat and then everybody got sick and see these, like isolated outbreaks bunch of people got sick probably from sharing the big infected animal, and then it would go away. And they often called it things related to sweating 'cause you'd be a lot, you'd get the fevers in the stomach pain, and you sweat a lot. And then you'd get all this muscle pain, and you'd sweating and more. And so the sweating fever this wedding plague, sometimes it was called things like dandy fever. I don't know why Febres diarrhea because you got diarrhea and a fever. So all these different names throughout history, especially in Germany. There were a lot of cases that happened in Germany. They had a lot of problems of parasites, and so you saw a lot of these shooter Anglican cases. Of course, they blame the English. The Germans are like it's the it's the English. They sent the sweating sickness down to us. And again, it's all the same thing where you get descriptions of illness, that probably is stricken Alabi. We don't know for sure we think. So we didn't figure out the worm that was responsible until the eighteen hundreds. And there was like the nicest most like collegiate, little battle over who I discovered it, it's like a very polite. Controversy and it's really not between the two original guys, it's like scientists throughout history who write about it. So it's almost like they weren't eager to be known forever as Dr Paik warm. I really think it's like, well, we found this gross worm, it's so gross. Don't tell my kids. Founded on February second eighteen thirty five James Paget was he was a medical student and he was practicing at Saint Bartholomew in London. And he was dissecting the cadaver of this guy who had died of Burki losses, but he found in his muscles, all of these little white calcified, cystic structures. And he thought this was very odd what they were so called him an amac, you'll at first through the tiny little animals that hit him festive accurate, sorta sorta, and so Sordo their worms or animals, tiny animals. Yes. Yes. So he was it was sorta. Right. And so he started little stood up. Janet with no, no knowledge show. It was very impressive. He had to go like borrow a microscope because he didn't have a good one. The department like does anyone have a microscope. I don't know what these are need something microscope sucks. But I'm pretty sure there's little animals in here. So you wait around to leave found a good, microscope. And he started opening up these cysts, and he saw that these are these little larva. These are these little worms. And after he kind of made this discovery he got the help of his anatomy, professor, Richard Owen. And he got him to come take a look at him and he actually helped him with, like figuring out exactly what, what part was what, what are we looking at getting like a better dissection of the system, this kind of stuff? And so, when it all came to present it, and wrote this up, by the way, which if you're in the scientific field, you know, that, that, that's like a big deal he made this discovery. And he wrote a whole like paper on it to be published to send in to say, hey, I found a new worm that nobody knows about, and it might be responsible for some sort of illness, and we can figure this out, but he never sent it anywhere. You can you can still read it. It's like in the historical record, but he never sent it anywhere. He never published it because he said, you know what Owen is? Like he's a better known guy. He has a lot more. Respect in the community. So I'm just going to let my anatomy, professor present the whole thing. So Owen presented the findings at the zoological society of London later that year he called it the flesh worm. Oh. No, it's just the worst terrible name, just the worst. So he presented his Owens flesh. You messed up. And the zoological society, I guess there's just crazy about it, and he. Yeah. Sounds like they wanted to say Owens flesh worm. Say nasty. And so he published the findings then he did. He mentioned that Paget also found it, but he like really minimized his part, like, I think one of my med students may have been there. I don't know med students whatever I think he was hanging around. So he really minimized it and so throughout history. Now when you talk about like, who discovered trick anelle who found this. You talk about that, sometimes when you're at a dinner party, and somebody's, like let's talk about women's flesh. And then there would be somebody else. It'd be like, listen. Pash a found that worm and Owen stole the credit and minimize his contributions. And I guess there's been this battle since then now for as far as passionate and Owen were concern. I don't think they really care because Pash was always like. Yeah. Love my mentor own with great. I was really happy that he helped me out and never said about word about him. So I don't think he cared. But now, you know the story. So the next time somebody gives oh, and all the credit conversation, you have with them. In your life. I made say, not so fast. So once they had figured out down. I want this conversation allows law. Let's human Basel. I got to tell you about Jay. He just didn't have a good microscope, had just had a decent microscope. So after that over the next couple of decades, a lot of scientists gotten all started looking for these cysts and other cadavers. And then eventually and animals to try to figure out where a lot of these things like parasites were getting from some sort of creature something or eating something we're coming in contact with. And so they started looking at animals, a lot of these, again were done in Germany, a lot of the early experiments because this was a big problem. This was infecting a lot of people there, a lot of outbreaks. So they were doing a lot of the early experiments to figure out what could get it, eventually virtual, and sinker where the two big scientists doing all these studies, and like feeding muscle two different animals to try to see like what they get infected if I do this, and that kind of thing eventually figured out, that pigs were a major source of this, and that's where the connection came with pork and once Germany, the thirties got win. That, like, hey, we figured out that there's this worm that humans can get and we're getting it from pigs. This actually created a lot of friction with the United States because at the time Germany was importing a ton of pork from the United States. And so, by default, a lot of the infected pigs were coming from the US. I mean nobody knew about the worm. It wasn't like intentional. Nobody was in there. And so this led to what was known as the German American pork wars. Maybe not one of the most important wars that ever involved, Germany, but. But I don't know this poor Coppola's. So maybe this is still run deep. So at the time Germany imposed these strict bans on importing any American pork and because they did it other European countries started following suit and saying, like, oh, we're not gonna get picked from America either and Americans were mad about it and saying, like it's not just I mean like we're just all learning about this. It's not just our pigs like we can all do better screening me. Anyway, there was this big like we're not gonna take your pork. Well, I don't know. We're, we're not gonna take. Yes, you will. We're already in the boat. And what eventually had to happen as we had to find a way where we could like screen pigs, and like look for it and see if bigs are affected, and they were able to do that in the most I like this, because it's the most like simplistic way possible, we need to figure out if pigs are infected. What can we do take a piece of pick, muscle and put it between two slides just smash it and look under my crisco, and that is the trick enough Skippy is what developed, and this was a whole scientific like you just look under a microscope. And look for SIS say like figures. Good or Moba. Don't do. Which one was do you think that, that could have saved Wilbur, if he had had chicken Osas? I mean nobody would eat them yours thinking that maybe Charlotte should've talked to a worm. Charlotte, had just written trick. Annella. Yeah. That's that's true. That's true. But that dumb farmer was shady, probably like, oh well, they tear it down by. Nobody saw this web. Come on sick little piggy. Just a little thing. I have learned if you're if you're fellow parent, or caregiver or raising a child, and you think I'm gonna show him Charlotte's web, because that was a pleasant film. I remember from my youth just beat. I mean everybody remembers about Charlotte. I don't wanna spoil it, but. Everybody knows that's coming. But in the beginning, there is a moment where that farmer is totally about to kill baby Wilber, and it's very intense just more near be prepared. I was not Charlie was scarred by that. What does he do? I don't know. Honey? I didn't condone I rush up stairs. When I heard her show in that, like know how could you? So eventually in addition to it was a war, they called it, though. I just want to clarify, I thought, maybe that might have predated the wars all of them, and they're like, you know, what guys this is a war, and then everyone else is like it's wicked. Not you just wouldn't take the pigs. And then you did after you did some science. That's not a war. You know, in science, sometimes the stakes are high day to day, like, we just like to feel the drama, minor skirmish, the German American pork skirmish. An American police action. So they so they figured out how to screen the pigs, and then we figured out also that if you cook the meat enough than is not a problem. And that was a big breakthrough, which is why you can, you know, I do this every time I'm cooking any meat. I have to like, ask Alexa, like what's the temperature supposed to cook pork too? So, and that's where all that comes from is because if we cook meat enough, then we don't have to worry about things like trickle Ella being in the meat, but screening was still part of it. And after that, obviously, we could start I don't know, sending pigs all over the world, once again, what a relief it has become much less of a problem Trigon, Ella. Like I preface with is very uncommon these days in the vast majority of the world, there are still places that have had more outbreaks still still like not a lot in the grand scheme of things, but in particular Romania has had a lot of. Trouble with controlling sporadic outbreaks of trick Annella through the years. And there are a lot of reasons for that, but one that I found really interesting and because we'd do a show about things that I think are interesting, and I hope you do is a certain festival that is celebrated in Romania, which is like, it's like pigs slaughtered. Which. It's kind of a cool holiday. It's also the feast day of Saint Ignatius and on December twentieth every year. They like the like bring pigs out and kill them like you probably guessed that from the name in front of. And. I don't know that this is necessarily something I want to attend in my life. But you might but one of the things that they do, and you can this can apply to any time when you're freshly killing pig to share with your family, friends, neighbors. Specifically this festival. One of the things they do is there. Butchering the pig. They cut off pieces and cook them right away and hand them out to you. Eat as you are observing the rest of the process. So always that's rough hone its enjoy like as they are. You're already kind of moving onto while you watch them, and there's a specific like, like Plum, brandy, that you drink with it, and they give you these first pieces at, then they call it picks homes, and this is a very important festival. But this has they think been the source of some outbreaks of trick nila, unfortunately. Again, more recently, especially in the US pigs are not often responsible. They can be, but there have been cases where specifically there's a big outbreak in California a few years ago, and it was because somebody killed a bear. And then. Okay. At the dinner party that ensued, people were partaking of raw and undercooked bear is this thing. How did you let me say all that wax stuff or? You mean sale that wax stuff and then, like you soup in twenty minutes later, you're like actually, they're a raw bear eating parties in California. They do it over there, saving that for the love. So, so there have been some cases because of that, and specifically like game mate, like wild boar, and stuff like that. But again, it is largely not a concern in the US. There are treatments. The sooner the better, the fewer cysts you have all over the easier to. But we've got medicine that can treat it now. So even if you are unfortunate enough to be one of the I mean, handful of cases that we see a year in the US, you can still be okay. You heard it here. First folks. Chow down. No, don't don't cook. You're, you're wasting. You're wasting time says, Dr Sidney small McElroy. General you're about to eat an animal. And you think is this an animal that needs to be cooked? Yes. Folks, thank you so much for coming out to our show. We have a book it's called the saw bones book, and we wrote it, and Taylor illustrated. It goodbye at both stores. If you ever listed our pockets for this your first time. Please describe to on itunes. Thank you, or wherever. Thanks taxpayers for these medicines as the intro and out, tro of our program. Thank you to those delightful. Mcelroy brothers for letting US Open for them. What an honor. Thank you to Paul. Thank you to Taft. Thank you, to most of all, of course you for coming to watch us, and we will be with you again next week. So until they're McElroy macro, there's always don't Joe hole in your head. Maximum fund dot org. Comedy and culture Artis don't audience supported. We are the host of my brother. My brother may and now nearly ten years into our podcast secret can be revealed all the clues in place and the world's greatest. Treasure hunt can now begin embedded in each episode of my brother. My brother is a micro that will lead you to fourteen precious gemstones all around this big beautiful blue world of ours. So start coming through the episodes. Let's say starting episode one, oh one on. Yeah. The early episodes are pretty problematic. So there's no clues those episodes. No, no. Not at all the better ones the good ones clues Hoy listened to every episode repeatedly NC Quance laugh if you must but mainly get all the great clues my brother. My brother made it's an advice show, kind of but at treasure hunt, mainly anywhere you find podcasts or treasure maps, my brother-in-law have other may. The hunt is on.