#29: Chris Capell - Coffee Savant and Entrepreneur
This is Peter love wa this is Scott Simon's, and this is the spirit broS podcast, a podcast about entrepreneurship, health and spirituality today is the day, one of my personal most anticipated episodes, ever, the big one, the one I love it's the coffee episode. Yes, you heard correctly. I said the coffee episode who better to guide us through the coffee episode. Then Coffey savant, Chris Capelle now before I get to Chris, and who he is. And what he does I want to say that today's episode Mr. Scott Mike co-hosts my spirit, bro, could not make it. So we had to find someone to take his place, the first person who came to mind, was Matt's Yar Dumont. You may remember Matt from all the way back episode. Three on the spirit rose podcast where Matt came on and told us about his crew. Ross fit Jim cross fit cap up. He's also a huge health nerd loves learning about health loves learning about how to optimize physical health. And also a huge pootie matinee go way back. We definitely connect over food. We've even taught food workshops together workshops on nutrition. But one thing we definitely connect on is our shared love for coffee. Yes, we are both huge coffee fans. So Matt was the obvious choice and very happy that he could come on the show and co host it with me, as we had Chris, Chris Capelle with us in the studio. So Chris is the former founder and owner of liquid to the knife now known as myriad cafe. Myriad onsite Denise street in Montreal. He is the current owner and founder of Montreal coffee academy. The Montreal coffee academy offers classes of all types all the way from professional trainings for baristas who wanna take it to the next. Level two classes for casual coffee enthusiasts such as myself. I took one of the classes at the academy, and even based, my home setup on that class that I took with Chris, we definitely spend a big chunk of time in this show, just talking coffee, I asked him all the questions I could think of I even thought of questions after the show, then like, oh my gosh. How did I not ask him that have haven't back at some point? But I think I got to a lot of really interesting topics on coffee, both on how to make delicious coffees to the whole culture, the whole theory of coffee. And what does it mean to be a progressive coffeemaker third wave coffee maker? So Chris helps us define some of these terms and understand them better. He also walks us through the whole process from grain and ground to coffee Cup in hand. So we talk about how the plant the coffee plant and the bean itself, how. It can impact flavor how the processing of the coffee bean impacts lever in how the extraction process all of these different steps. How the impact flavor and how you can optimize these steps Chris gives us some tips on what we can do when we're making our own coffee at home, and how we can make it so bad. The best flavor comes out. The also walks us through some of the entrepreneurial experience, he's had both with liquid toll running a coffee business. Some of the challenges, he met as an entrepreneur, and some of the things he learned and whether or not he'd do things the same way he had to go back and start from scratch again. I know this episode is not the subset but the show is a show about spirituality, if you're like me, and you love coffee, I guarantee you will have a spiritual. Experience listening to Chris speak about coffee. This guy is the real deal. This is an amazing episode. This is Chris Capelle on the spear Bros podcast. The spirit grows podcasts. Christabel. Welcome to the spirit, rose podcast. Thanks very much. And before we dive into all things, Chris, I want to say hi to Metra's multi. Yes. Yeah. Co host of the day impressive welcome back to the podcast about to be here. Yes. So, so Matt, you may remember him from our episode on, on cross fit and Crawford, cap up where you talk to us about training and business and running across business, and lots of amazing official life of the business owner in bucks. So it's great to have you here because I know you're a fellow coffee lover enthusiasts, and we have, like, the, the coffee captain slash professor slash grew slash maestro. I don't know what title you may be a humble humble title. Maybe it's like we're just having casual living back with God tests, even before had, like we were like making coffee before the podcast started, and we were like you're giving us like a home class. And man, I think we're just to be there soaking up the wiz. Adam is the beginning of the Wayne's world. We're not worthy. Stuffed tends to spill out of me somewhat naturally. I think my bio on the, the coffee kademi website, says, like Chris can talk about coffee for a long time. So yeah, so take advantage guys. For real because if you love coffee like hearing you speak about it. It's like it's poetry cool. So before we jump into the coffee aspect, I, I heard you, streaming, you we talked about ukulele before we start recording. So I learnt that you're also ukulele player. What's your favorite ukulele song? What's one song that really got you sort of an amored with the instrument? I mean, I, I are playing ukulele when I was like seven or eight or nine or something like that. So that was a nineteen twenty two. And so I was just playing folk stuff and things like that. But as an adult, I got back into it, you know, when with the hipsters where doing covers of, like, you know, really serious songs, but on like this fun punky little things. So I still like that kind of stuff, I think I was playing Radiohead earlier. So when I hear those kind of fun covers on ukulele and stuff that, that tends to be the thing. There's something I talked to my brother about it because he also plays guitar and ukulele and stuff. And there's something non serious about the ukulele that makes you feel like a little freer to. Sit down and just plink away, kind of thing where it's like you can go around on guitar too. But there's something when you pick up a guitar you're like, okay I should play now. But usually it's like we. Yeah. It's so true. When even when you get into those kind of more melancholy songs on the U Cooley, there's like a cheer that's added to it. And so it's really fun to, to cover a song. That's got a bit more darker. Undertones good on the UK just one of my favorite bands that I used to play cafe all the time is the Smiths and one of the things said about him is that like their music? Sounds really, really happy and their lyrics are really dark so fund makes right? All men. All right. So one thing I guess where I want to start posting daily talk is. You, you have a past life, as, you know, working in production and film, and video games. What was that Jeff like an early moment where you felt either drawn to, to the creative aspect of that, that jaw are to the, the group, the teamwork, the, you know, like that, that special magical mirror miraculous thing that comes together when, when there's a much more shallow story. Yeah. Which I, I was finished university. And I was back working at the same restaurant that I've been working at summers while I was in university just trying to pay off my hydro-quebec Bill that I had accrued during my last year students because we had an apartment that had really crappy installation and the Bill was sky high by the end of the year. So I was back just working at that restaurant. And I was going to the gym and a guy in the gym was wearing a t shirt for the Panasonic. Three DO. I believe is the name of the, the platform. It was the one of the first CD base CD ROM based video game systems. And this was in Victoria, Victoria BC. Ninety three okay? Ninety three ninety four. And he was wearing this t shirt. And I'd read about it in wired magazine though, system wasn't even out yet. And, but it was coming and I was playing Seca Genesis or whatever at the time it was kind of like CD based game. Awesome. And so I asked him, you know, like where where where. Where'd you get that teacher whether and he's like, oh, I work for a company that that is making a game for it. You know, you should come by and check it out. And I was like, okay, and so I came by and gave me a tour and, you know, people were walking around in shorts eating slices of pizza, which in nineteen Ninety-three was like no way. I was just like I would have. And that's literally how I got into video kids. That's really cool. I, I have no training. I just I have an English degree, but I'd love to do anything and he looked at me and he went video game. Tester get me your resume tomorrow. We're looking for somebody, and I was like, okay. Wow. Back into days. Because Sega Genesis like you said it was like the big platform at that time. Now, three D, O, CD-rom remember, having that kind of parameters that you put under your Genesis with CD-ROM right after all them after. That was we're looking back into the next level. But that is back in the days because like video game, the video game industry at that point. I don't think it had nearly the same amount of polish are renown today today you walk in the mile end. And you've got like every, you know, those Ubisoft there's these other like gaming companies set up and it's like it's huge in the and I went to work for electric arts after that small company in Victoria, got headhunted over to the Vancouver was. A big company at that point. But it was pretty much the only one like it was the only really big established company. Everything else at the time was, was more small sort of independent stuff. So because it was the A I think, when I mentioned it to my parents, they were kind of pretty happy. But if I if I said, I'm just going to work for, you know, some other little small thing or something that they would have been, like, rarely video games. I don't know. But now, of course. Yeah, it's like people you video games. Awesome excited. To this day. One of my favorite all time video games. NHL ninety four oh, you're your initial NHL guy. I just played the NHL ninety four that's for me. That was it. I didn't get into the fence you like current and it shall ones. But ninety four I mean, I've, I've spent countless hours, including buying a super Nintendo, like in two thousand and seven with my raincoat time. And then it was he and I and we got like it was crazy. Amount of hours was such mind games at the end. You know the other guy, so. Well, it's a coup who blinks first. Not. You're playing the team you're playing him at that point. Yes. Now at. In vancouver. That's why they did most of the sports games. So they did hockey. They did a feta. They did baseball and basketball which is what I ended up working on. Yeah. Right on up, but you also dabbled in films. So I when I left video games, I took a year off and I did just some freelance writing and stuff like that for magazines and stuff like that. And then I got into it was motion capture actually for computer animated cartoons at mainframe entertainment head of the curve. You're jumping this thing. Well, it's not that different an environment. It was a bunch of, you know, like techie people in, in cubicles, some creative, some more technical programming side. Yeah. And then, you know, trying to make an entertainment product. And then I went from that into visual effects basically. So. So what, what now like looking back? What do you, what's you take from that time spent in visual effects in video gaming, and film? I, I can still I think some people when they get working in a specific area. They get too close inserts the pug them or they get tired of it or something that, but I still really love how I can watch films now and I can see the craftsmanship. I can see the choices that were made, I can still see even visual effects, I've been out for ten years now. And a lot of stuff has changed. But I can still see some of the technical stuff that's done, and I can go whoa. That's a really complicated shot. Even though it doesn't just passes you by and it smooth it pops out to me. So I like the insight that, that gives me into, you know what it takes to make something from from having been there on the inside for a while. Yeah. Are you a gamer I actually stopped video gaming when I got into film because I realized that, like, okay I've got a free evening or a weekend or something that I can either spend five six hours and get an eighth of a w-. Away into a video game or I can watch citizen Kane, and like some other classic though, is like there was so many movies that I wanted to educate myself with that. I just switched over and I kind of lost the taste for gaming. I I'll my girlfriend's a big gamer and I'll still do casual gaming with her, like Mariel Bharti and stuff like that. But the minimum party in. Yeah, I got her the switch for Christmas last, not this year. But the year before that, so is that good. Yeah. It's fun. It's a good system. What about you matter, your gamer, I used to? Yeah. Probably the same thing after a while. I used to be a big gamer for specific starcraft back into days on. Oh, but after a while when you start to do something else who that I'll do I use my time game. I really wanna spend it like four or five our computer used to play word of aircraft, like crazy back in the days. Really? Grossly. There's three categories. There's people that don't wanna game at all. There's people like you and I can really get into gaming for a while. But then if it comes down to time we're going to pick something else. And then there's other people who are like, no matter what's going on their life. They're going to make time for it. So that's fell by the wayside, but somebody Sylvia. That's still got like some, some games on my computer and I'm like, yeah, she'll be fun to play. But I'm like, do I really want to spend an hour that and not get at the end of the level of something like that? Yeah. That now there's something else. That's the level of questioning I haven't. Now I can say it's it is like when I, I love gaming still to this day. But I try to choose games that have like a firm finish. Right. Because now with a free to pay models. And a lot of the games they want recurrent current interaction with the game. And then the game set up so that you spend money. Yeah. And like if I like like the last game that I got into that doesn't have a clear finish was counter strike global offensive, and that's a first person shooter, that strategic, and like in the group, competitive sports, you know, when I love the competitive aspect and kind of scratch that each with their game. And I felt peop- in a rabbit hole. And like you said it's like so many hours spent on this game, and I'm like, okay, I got to, like, move myself away from this, because I'll just keep playing forever. Trevor that I used to work with Electronic Arts. He sees the term krono fish each time. You seem like as a person of very sort of whatever you get into whether it's a hobby, or profession, that be passionate to be really thorough and dive into it if if it's the right thing. Yeah. I mean I think I'd like to say it's about passion. I think it might have been something that my dad inculcated into my brain a little bit about, like if you're going to do something do it. Well and. You know, and that applies to, like, like how I do dishes and everything like that. But it has a dark side, which is that if I feel like I can't do something. Well, then I just don't want to do it. I would run into that at work if I get an assignment from a boss that I was like this is not going to work out. I would be really resistant to it. I'd be like, and I'd try and like fight and resist taking the thing. And it would frustrate my boss bosses. That's interesting because that's not all. How I the impression I got out of you making one of your coffee workshops, but we can get to that later. I mean, let's let's, let's use that let's transition from, maybe that mindset in the gaming production side to Admiral if this the right date, but around two thousand five you start getting into coffee so, yeah, why why that time? What's the draw coffee? What's the? It's an it's another great little shallow story. Is that I was dating a girl who I didn't actually drink much coffee at the time, I used to drink coffee when I was in university, the way that you take aspirin when I would take it when I needed it to stay awake for a class or something like that. And I was drinking bad coffee and diet coke. And some of that and my stomach started to hurt, and so I kinda just laid off it, and so I was dating a girl, she was my first francophone Quebecois girlfriend, and she really liked her bowl of cafe ole so on the weekend, we get up and make a bit of a fancy breakfast. And I had because I had a condo. And you had to have one of these things I had a little plastic two hundred dollars special machine on the counter, and it made terrible coffee and the coffee got worse over time. Now looking back. It was probably, I don't know. Maybe the water chemistry was getting worse or machines. Just getting dirtier. I don't know what because I didn't know anything about any of that stuff, but it was just getting worse and worse than I you know, I said, I'm going to go on the internet, and I'm gonna figure out the best. Espresso machine. I can I'm going to pay like five hundred dollars and I'm going to have top machine gun at the time I was working in film, and there was no contracts were between contracts that the production house. I was at. And so I had a lotta time I literally could just sit there for like I think I spent a week straight eight hours a day, just reading coffee forums. If my former bosses listening, sorry. I rapidly realized that five hundred dollars was barely going to get me a grinder, and that you needed a grinder. You couldn't use progress offi, but I also learned about this new movement in coffee, that was happening. I in my classes, I always try and use the term progressive coffee because I think it's a better term. But of course, most people still use the term third wave. You elaborate on that. We'll maybe. To that after. Yeah. Exactly. But so I saw that there was this new thing going on. And it was kind of interesting to me, it was geeky. The forms in particular that I was reading where a little more focused on the equipment side, and modification and brewing parameters and things like that. And so, I was like okay that kind of rings, a bell for me. And also I could see it. You could just keep going. You know, you could learn, you know, and learning is for most people even whether they realize it or not, you know, your brain goes to a fun place when you're learning new stuff at this point, were their third wave or progressive coffee, scenes anywhere, like yeah. There were some of the most more west coast at that point in North America anyway. But there was one in Montreal at the time we ask cafe or javelin mount Royal and. Taking you back. But anyway, so I after a week I pushed the button on a seven hundred fifty dollars Espresso machine, and like three hundred and fifty dollar grinder and I pressed the button and like how to five second panic attack 'cause I was like, how much did I spend on that coffee and? It became my hobby at home. And as we were talking about in the kitchen just beforehand when people come to me, and they say, I want to get into doing coffee at home. So you know what Espresso machine should I buy say, okay? Hold on. Let's step back a second here. Why do you want an Espresso machine at home? Is it just because you want to have a nice latte in the morning. And if the answer is, yes, then I tell them just find the cafe that's on the way to your work, and just stop by and get one on the way because buying an Espresso machine to just have a coffee in the morning is like buying a vintage Vespa scooter in order to go from home to work. You're you're going to get from home to work, but you're also gonna spend a lot of your time in the garage on the weekend tinkering with it, and trying to order parts that don't aren't made anymore, online, and informs with fest Boehner's, and stuff like that. And that's exactly what Espresso is at home. So I if people say, oh, no, I don't really want to be spending an hour and a half every week, every Saturday, dialing in playing with different. Recipes and cleaning my machine and reading forums, and things like that. And, you know, never mind just the weekend but like joining the week and stuff as well. Then I tell them, you know, what filter is is a great option for you. So, so many things. Thanks, a camp, sir. I'm sure some coffee fans like the way you're speaking. That's exactly me. When I took your workshop the first time I'm hearing the questions that I was asking you. I was curious about getting answered, and I'm sure a lot of people who love coffee are passionate about coffee. Think that Espresso are just because that's what's used in all coffeeshops is the height is some of coffee concoction in quality, and taste and everything else. And what you're saying is that, that's not necessarily the case. So I, I do this little spiel in my class and I'll try and condense it down because I'm on your time. Not my time here. Take as much time to talk about this golden, the lake Sarah, God's that his coffee there is this belief now that Espresso is, is in the minds of I think, the general coffee market, that Espresso is this better fancier thing Espresso was invented to be faster. It it was the added pressure. And they realized that they could make coffee in thirty seconds as opposed to three four five minutes. Which normally it takes without pressure. And that was it. I like to show this. A poster from the from the time when Espresso machines were invented from a company that still exists called Victoria. Or do we know it's a classic poster? You can see it in, like poster shops on mount Royal and stuff like that still. It's this guy leaning. It's like sort of an art, deco art, nouveau, sorta to design this guy in a long, trench coat leaning out of a train to receive a Cup of Espresso. This just come off this one of those beautiful tall. Espresso machine. Yeah, you go on the top. And it's like that's what they were at the time. That's what they were proud of his look, how fast we can make coffee. We can make it so fast that you don't even have to get off the train, you could just shout out the order, and we'll pass it to you. You know, that's all that's all they wanted to do. And in one hundred years since for many, many reasons it's become conflicted with something, that's better quality. There is a route to that, which is that, you know, Espresso is always served freshly brewed. Right. Whereas filter can be served freshly brewed and increasingly it is now with the progressive coffee, scenes and stuff. But for most of the hundred years that Espresso as existed filter has been served. It's been Bruton big pots and then left to sit on oil or for thirty minutes. Whereas America where, you know, our filter is like folders. We also wasn't the best quality ingredients and all that kind of stuff with the intelligence didn't have great colleague ingredients either for most of that time it was really just that most filter was prepared in advance and then held for long periods of time in order. So that when you walked in, you could still get your Cup pretty quick. Yeah. That's not a fault of the method that's a fault of the way it served. If you if you brew coffee in smaller batches, and you serve it more fresh filter coffee. The other thing that I talk about is the big advantage of the filter format for when you're trying to taste, subtlety and coffee, the concentration of Espresso is so high that it's just a big punch flavor in your mouth, all at once guys who are paid to taste coffee for living guys who by green coffee for roasters or roasters having received the green coffee from their buyer, and they're trying to figure out exactly how to roast coffee. They're tasting it in style. We call it cupping and a coming is the exact same concentration is filter. So we're trying to find the tiny little, like defects, and stuff in flavor to decide whether they spent one hundred thousand dollars on this lot of coffee or not there tasting it at the concentration of filter. It's clear to me that filter is the superior tasting format. Can we can we go through that? And that seems like a really interesting notion. So cupping when you Cup Espresso you're going to you're going to use this. Okay. Can you just kept coffee? You just you just cut coffee. But you want it to be the same ratio as a filter. Her cough. Yeah. But that's not normally the case Espresso uses less water, norm. Exactly. So Espresso is for each gram of dry coffee. You're using your passing way less water. And so it makes a Cup that is far more concentrated, which is why we serve it in smaller little portions cat, if you served in eight ounce Cup of Espresso. You'd kill somebody. I saw. Actual technical lethal dose for caffeine is really, really high. But it is just not the way we drumming forest Bresso in a Cup. Yeah. Starting their Schiff. I've seen that too, in my years, I once or twice a week, you get somebody that would come in and order, the quad the four double shots or something like that. And you just be like, okay, buddy, serving beckon Afghanistan, serving the mother of all coffee. The Milwaukee was four shots of Espresso and filter. That thing was insane by up that I'm that kind of guy to that level of caffeine consumption, and I can I can verify that it's near hallucinatory. Yeah. All at that point. Start seeing and hearing are not their God. Okay. The four guy within for their startup. Everybody was out outgained now. We're just dying nothing. Good is been from finishing that Cup. Yeah. The concentration that filter is that which is the same concentration and cupping just over over time with experience has been proven that the human tongue tastes best around that human can distinguish different things and subtleties a little more if it's a weaker than that it starts falling off, again, your perception because it's too weak for you to pick it out. But, you know, if you go stronger than filter coffee significantly towards Espresso, you, you get a big punch of flavor. It's more concentrated, but your ability to, like separate the different notes and to taste the but, like I say potential defects, or things like that are actually reduced. I love hearing you talk about coffee, so fun. Okay. Like again, there's so many things done packing that so, so you're talking about the, the ratio of filter coffee is the ideal amount, of, I guess, flavor compounds per water yet quantity for to be able to pick things apart. I'd mentioned this as well in my class that if you've ever done a whiz. Ski tasting when I asked this blessing less people say, yes, I don't know what happened on whiskey tasting isn't a thing anymore. But if you go the essay Q, and you do like a tasting or something like that, they'll often offer you flat water to dilute, the whisky down a little bit. They won't give you ice because if you call it down, you actually reduce flavor, perception room, temperature is actually better for human tasting. That's also evolutionary for most of human evolution. We didn't have fire so people could taste better at room temperature were more likely to avoid rotten meets void plants that were poisonous, and they would pass their genes on. So we taste better around room, temperature. So which is why you should also let your coffee cool a little bit, you'll taste it better. But. So you won't they won't recommend ice for whiskey tasting they won't recommend carbonated water because that's got you get you shift, the flavor. There's carbonic acid and stuff. But they will say if you want a little flat water, it'll open up the flavors. It doesn't open up anything it, it just dilutes the whiskey down closer to a concentration that the human tongue can work more with, because like Espresso straight whiskey. There's a lot of flavor there. And I mean, if you taste to Espresso side, by side from different coffees or two different whiskies, you will taste the difference between them, but you won't be able to taste the subtleties in each one as much as if you had it in a more dilute form yet. So I love this, because this reminds me of the class, I took a filter coffee class with you at the Montreal coffee, academy and hearing you speak about coffee in this way. Like for me was the realize ation that third wave isn't just a fancy name of describing these, these new coffee spots are opening up and seemed to have. This vintage. Look, it's it's there's a there's a lot of research and science and passion going into understanding. How do you how do you develop, how do you deliver the best flavor of coffee there? So there's one I have a quote from you. I to read the quote, and you maybe elaborate on that. And the code is if my Espresso runs five seconds, too fast and is sour. The customer is tasting my brewing. They're not tasting the bean, right? The machine right? If my Espresso runs a five seconds, too fast and is sour. The customers tasting my brewing. They're not teaching the bean or the machine. So that, that seems like a, you know, a simple concept maybe for someone who's in in the progressive field. But for someone like maybe me and mad. I don't know about you met. I'm like, wow. Okay. Why what's the difference between? Let's five seconds in Espresso. So this is. I mean, it was one of the reasons why we opened the academy actually, is that having had the cafe for many years, I would hear comments like people would come in, and they would go, you're using I used to use forty ninth parallel coffee, and their Epoca's Presa was my special Goto, and they say, oh, you use epic, Espresso I had that somewhere else. It was it was sour. I didn't like it. I don't want one of your coffee's and I'd be like, well wait a minute. You know, because it's the same thing I would also get the opposite. I would get people coming in saying, oh, you're using forty nine. That's why your coffee, so good or. Oh look at your beautiful machine. This is why your coffee so good. And I you know, one of the things I start the classes with his saying, I can take the best being in the world, the best roast in the world, the best machine in the world. And I can still make something that is utterly non drinkable. It's a real surprise for people when they take the classes, and we, we go through all the theory at the beginning. But then when we go over to the machine, and we start tasting we'd just start tweaking Pramod or slightly, how massively different you can make a coffee taste. I don't want to save it, most of the. Waiver and a coffee comes from the brewing. It has it, it does come from the origin and from the bean flavors, there are in the bean and they are then transformed as well in the roaster. So I guess the farmer in the roaster really create the flavors that are there, but which flavors are coming out into your Cup can massively shifted by the barista. And like I say, it's a real revelatory moment for a lot of people, they didn't realize that like that. It had that much effect on it. So what for me what I'm trying to do is decouple that idea. P in people's mind that what they're tasting is just the being or is the machine or anything like that, to realize that, like if they get a bad coffee, it might not be the machines fault with the coffees fault. And if they get a good coffee. It's not just because of the being and the machine it's also because of the person who pulled the shot the Cup. Yeah. Can you walk us through then let's say hypothetical from the seed in the ground for the coffee in a Cup? Like, what are the, let's say the main factors that will influence a taste from. So one of the major hallmarks of the progressive coffee movement, is that we're trying to preserve as much of the terroir flavors of the bean as possible, and we use the exact same word terroir that they use them wine because they've already established everyone accepts very much that wind from one vineyard is going to taste different than one from another vineyard, and they didn't believe that in coffee. And that's our mission is to try and convince people of that. So just by borrowing the exact same language we immediately get some legitimacy, but. It's also true in the same way that grapes, are affected by the soil that they're grown in the variety of grape that they're grown in the weather and also the techniques that the farmer uses to grow it and to process, it is the same stuff happens in coffee. So, like I say the soil in Kenya is particularly acidic, and it produces a coffee that has a little more vibrant acidity different varieties. We'll have more emphasis on certain flavors and versus others. And then the altitude is also important that sort of falls into the terroir the, you know, the, the geographic location, a little bit as well. Yeah. Coffee that's grown at higher altitudes is usually a bit more complex. So there's all that kind of stuff the next major step that affects flavor is after the coffee. Well is the care put into not just the growing, but also the harvesting of coffee coffee actually ripens at different speeds, you walk by a coffee tree, and you look at a branch and you'll see. There's a bunch of cherries that are really nice and ripe and some that are a little less than some that are still green. And so when it's picked you have to actually just hand pick the ones that are already ripe. There is a way to get around that you can mechanically stripped, pick all the cherries, and then just separate them later, you can float coffee in water, and on, ripe ones will sink to the bottom. But then obviously you lose those. Yeah, you have to sell them to a lower grade market. So the best coffee, the kind of coffee that you guys are drinking right now is handpicked. So the picker has to go back over several weeks during harvest to get the ones that are a few weeks later, now, those ones are ripe, so there's the pick and the sort, you know, if there's any kind of sort that stunned to get any unwraps that happened to fall in, then there's the processing and there's generally two types of processing, but there's some hybrids and things that are going really classically, most coffee, that served nowadays is what we call a wash coffee. And so the flavors are the sort of flavors that us. Associate with coffee. But more and more people now have had the opportunity to try what's called a natural process or a dry processed coffee. And that coffee is actually left to dry in the fruit of the coffee cherry until the fruits, sort of starts to crack off, and dry off, and then the beans pulled out that way. And because it's left in the versus I should I should clarify the wash. Coffees are actually soaked in water in order to soften the fruit. And then they're moved that way. So, because the dry process it's left in the fruit, there's this crazy, I like to say, like fruity pebbles cereal kind of flavor gets added to the copy. And so if you if you if you've ever just happened to have or smell the bag of coffee or Cup of coffee or whatever, and you get this crazy weird fruit smell. That's from the processing, actually. It's not necessarily the, the tear war, one of the knocks in, in the industry from, for example, ScotRail my former coffee. He's still my current mentor, my former boss. My current mentor. Is he doesn't like natural processes much because they actually homogenize is the flavor a little bit. Up naturally processed coffee from Africa and South America, actually tastes, much more similar to each other than a washed one would because you had this crazy big strong fruit flavor over top, and you start losing maybe a little of the other subtleties. But there are some people that really love it as well, then after the processing, it's I'd say the next step for something not necessarily good. But more bad to happen would be in shipping. Coffee used to be shipped in jute bags. And unfortunately, those are poorest to air and water and animals. Crawling around in the hall of the ship that it's being shipped or something like that. Mice and rats. The better better coffee is now shipped in with a grain bags, which is sort of hermetically sealed, very thick plastic, the punctured and stuff. So you can preserve flavor a little bit better. And then it's how long it takes to get from origin to the roaster the shorter. You can get that the less loss of flavor and stuff like that. There is then is the roasting and again, this is something that I go on at length about in the classes, they'll do a little condensed version in progressive coffee, as I mentioned. We're really trying to preserve as much as possible the origin flavors of the coffee. So we tend to go for much lighter roast than maybe the majority of the industry, still does for us. There's this kind of magical point in our heads, where the grain, I quit, I do it in French and English light switch back and forth. But see that there's the, the coffee seed, which becomes our coffee bean is has to be kind of cooked all the way through. You gotta, you know, you've got to transform the bean. Yeah. For two reasons one because coffee before it's roasted if it's not fully transformed has very different flavors. It's very sour and green and grassy and not very good tasting and then also green coffee is not very soluble in water, right? So your roasting in order to increase the solubility can I ask you something? That's just what is roasting is like a baking oven. Is it a broil? Is it, what's the process of, it's literally just the application of heat? The simplest roasting technique is still done to this day and ET Opio when you make coffee in Ethiopia you start with green beans, and you literally just cooked him in a pan and you until they're roasted and then you grind it up using a mortar and pestle and you brew it. So that process is they, they never get start with roasted coffee and yeah. Yoga every time you make a Cup of coffee, you roast on the. Well, traditionally, I'm sure there are cafes now that have roasted coffee, but the traditional coffee ceremony that's done in every household couple times a day, and interestingly popcorn with their, their coffee, which I think, is awesome. I wanna try that definitely. But it's literally application of heat. So obviously, it gets more and more complicated. But most commercial roasters nowadays are done in one of two styles. Is either a giant drum roaster? So it's kind of a horizontal drum that spins and kind of, like if you're drier, basically, and the beans are just in there, and they apply heat, and it's much more complicated. There's airflow and rate of rise of temperature and all kinds of stuff that I'm happy. I don't have to have anything to do with 'cause I stick to the side, but the other style is more of an air roaster, it's more sort of a vertical container and the coffee beans are in their heat is applied and also airs shot through it. So the beans kind of bounce constantly so that, you know, the, the main reason why you want the movement is just so that like one side doesn't stick to something hot and. Get burned on one side and Ron the other or something like that. He said something to the greener like the progressive coffee movement. You want to have on the greener side. Why would anybody want the, the opposite, not the green or side, just the same was is that you have to cook it all the way through all so that you transform it, the, the flavors away from that sort of sour green into the kind of flavors, we actually one copy. And so that it's really soluble in water, but we want to stop. Exactly at that point. We don't want any further and for us the analogy uses always when you're cooking steak. If you go pass medium, you're starting to taste, the cooking more than the steak. So an I have no problem with people that, like their steak well done, and I have no problem with people that, like dark coffee. But if you're trying to taste the origin flavors of being the further you go pass that sort of magic, optimal point, the more, you're actually starting to either burn off some of the delicate origin flavors. They are delicate flavor compounds and enough heat will like literally pull them out and destroy them and, and, or you're going to actually start adding roast flavors on top. There are flavors that when you start roasting enough. It's the same as when. It's a steak starts going beyond medium. There are flavors of roast like the flavor notes on dark roasted coffee are often tobacco smoke leather, you know, things like that. And again, no problem if somebody likes those kind of flavors, but the thing is that when you do that, if you have a coffee from Indonesia and Kenya two very different origins. The darker you go. The more they're just going to taste the same. They're just gonna taste like dark roasted coffee, so your question why would someone do that? It's either a because they like those dark roasted flavors which, again, I have no problem with or be because the roaster believes, and I would still have to say that most restaurants were right. That there is a good chunk of consumers that want this that the, the consumer wants the coffee to taste the same every day, you know, every morning, the coffee in most roasters, even big commercial blends. The origins are changing throughout the whole year because the harvest season is different for each country through the year. So the roasters are even if they have a blend of, like ten different coffees, there's still. Wapping occasionally. So in order to keep the flavor from changing they just go really dark the cafe olympico effect. Oh. But, you know, so, like I say to this point, I would say that most consumers do still want more either the dark roasted flavors or they want it to be the same. But I can say from personal experience, when you give people a chance to taste later, roasted coffee, and they give them a chance to taste like a couple of different ones next to each other. It's a real revelation. So we're we're slowly gaining. We will never one hundred percent eliminate the dark roasted side of the industry because there are people that are going to like that. But we are winning slowly. We're winning more and more people to our side, but I'm a little bit because I. Where where we're going with progressive coffee in third wave. But where does it come from where that term is coming from where not talking about? I we've right. Yeah. So I think you wanted to ask me earlier on the progressive versus third way. Thanks. So I like progressive coffee because as soon as you say progressive coffee, there's already a meaning in their people can already kind of guess. Okay. You're trying to do something a little different than before. You're trying to change your trying to get better, you know, which is very much true. The third wave term was invented by a coffee roaster named Trish Roth gab, who is currently part owner and roaster for wrecking ball coffee in the states, and it the reason I don't like the term is that first of all, you have to explain it, if you say third wave coffee to someone means nothing right away. Unless they've heard the term like third way feminism or something before, so they realize, okay, this means that this is a new way of doing something different than before. But that's all they know the waves really briefly our first wave in North America was just that we had coffee at all. Starting four or five hundred years ago, whenever coffee I got imported into North America and you know. Actually people used to roast at home, a lot more originally and most people would grind their own coffee on mills and stuff like that. We a luxury item back, I think so. I don't think that it was very commonly had but. I think it became democratized probably sooner than a lot of other things because it helps people work. Brought copy. And the first wave probably culminates in folger's, and Maxwell house, instant coffee, stuff like that, basically, then, the second wave was the introduction of Espresso. Just that we had Espresso. We had sort of what, what some people call specialty beverages and stuff, you Kappa, Chino's and fancy drinks and stuff like that. And you know that started out, you know, in the twenties, and thirties in tiny little cafes in Italian neighborhoods in cities and stuff like that, and eventually culminated in big chains and stuff like that. Yeah. So the third wave. And again, like I much prefer progressive coffee. It's a lot of stuff. I don't like to try and pretend that I speak for the entire industry. But it's it's one of the things is that interest in preserving more terroirs so you can taste the difference from one coffee origin to another coffee. Another side of it is about ethics and sustainability and fair trade and better life for all the people in the chain. Better lives for the farmers and more fair wages and eliminating child labor and all that kind of side of it. Yeah. And also, the ecological side of that, you know, like a growing coffee in a way, that is not going to deplete soils and destroy environments, and things like that. And then another side of it is the sort of more technical side of preparation and equipment and things like that. And, you know, trying to push equipment to be more precise, and more repeatable and give us better results in experiment with whole new things that have never been tried before. And again, especially on the Espresso side, it's really easy to make the difference between progressive versus classical Espresso because classical Espresso is Italian. And there even there's a government department in Italy that has set the laws for what Espresso is. I'm not sure how many people in Italy actually follow those laws Eddy. Izard. The British comedian likes to talk about how fascism technically started in Italy. But he's like Italians are fascist there too casual there, too. So I can't really following these precise laws specifically, but it does exist. That's fascinating where law, there's all kinds of ruled the amount of grams you use. And how much like would you pull, and it has to be in this many seconds? And it has to you know they've just like that's it. And don't change it. Whereas progressive coffee like people have been like what happens if I pull in a special shot for a minute and a half or what happens if I try and put in six seconds. What if I change the ratio massively, like we've been just doing a lot more sort of like, well, let's take the limits off and experiment, and then let's share the results, and let's move forward that way. And I think it's not coincidental that it came along after the internet was relatively well established there. A pioneer progressive com icon before everyone else. A very beginnings of of progressive coffee. I think it was seventy-five as George Howell who still roasts and has cafes in Boston. I met him. We brought them up co-organiser for these coast coffee madness event. And we brought Georgia and he invented he actually sold a small chain of cafes to Starbucks the Frappuccino, which he likes to talk about these progressive coffee Friday near invented the petite. He sold his small chain of cafes to Starbucks and then took the money and started this series of competitions in origin company origin countries called Cup of excellence and in a Cup of excellence competition farmers from all across the country invited to submit samples of their coffee. There's a local set of judges that do a big triage and sort. And then there's maybe one hundred coffees or something like that, that are left the top one hundred and then international coffee. Judges are brought in and they do a cupping and then the top fifteen or twenty or something like that coffees ranked and then they're offered off. And so if you're a roaster somewhere, and you're trying to get your hands on a really good coffee in your this is a fabulous way to get stuff. All the works already been done for you. And you can. Just before the auction. What happens is they send out samples to anyone who requests them you cop, and then you bid on line. So, like you're like, we got number six from Honduras, or something like that. And you can put that on your bag and your customers are super excited and stuff like that. That's so cool. Yeah. The tuna fish markets in Japan for sushi. Nowhere to get the tuna catches of the day. And then it's like actually all and yeah, exactly. It's tough for roasters to find these really good things. And so if you've got someone's done all the work of certifying and tasting these things, and telling you that this stuff is really, really good. And then because it's auctioned that means the farmers literally getting the best price he possibly could if there's a better price someone would pay it at the auction. So, and so that, that competition is spread to many, many countries now. But that was sort of the origin of that, like trying to push for quality and push for the connection to origin and the transparency again to make the connection a little bit with wine. You know, the way that coffee outside of the progressive industry. The way the coffee is sold is sort of the way wine was sold, like forty or fifty years ago. You. It was like red or white. That was that was your choice. And if you were really lucky there might be three bottles, and one would say, France and the other ones, say, Italy, and the other one's Germany or something like that. And that was it. That was your choice. Whereas now it's very accepted that you want to know. Okay. But what region of Francis it from what far what's the name of the farm? And what's the name of the farmer? What variety of grape is it? That's all we're looking for in coffee. We're just trying to make that same thing. And that transparency that connection through to the origin has lots of beneficial. Sides to it. For example, the fact that if you know who the farmer is it can be independently verified that you can, you know that farmer can be contacted by journalist or anyone who's interested and say, how much did you get paid, like feel fairly treated by this roaster? Whereas if the roasters buying and you have no idea where it comes from. You don't know what happened. So it's fun to know the source and where everything is coming from. I remember one fact I don't remember the exact number, but during the, the workshop, you said that there's there are more compounds in coffee than there are in wine yet. I hesitate to give the exact numbers. I throw some out in the class, but then I say, like I'm not. I gotta be honest. I'm not sure on the source of that, but there's more and more research that's been done. Actually the last few years. It's massively increased the threat of climate change has meant that even really big companies like Nestle and stuff like that are starting to funnel huge amounts of money in to research centers for coffee. UC Davis has one. That's very well known. There's one in Texas. Okay. And so they're, you know, they're doing more and more research, and the last number that I heard was, they've found their up to one thousand five hundred different compounds that they found in coffee not in one Cup. But in all the cups that they've analyzed every time they find a new compound. They added to the list. They're up to one thousand five hundred. Compound. For an average Cup. It's hard to save. I think seventy eight hundred or something like that is probably something reasonable. But again, I'm not even sure where I remember I got that number so with massive grains, assault, but I am told as well also a bit of grain of salt, but I'm told wine is sort of three to four, something like that essential thing to know because it shows that, you know, there there's a lot of complexity are essential complexity in a Cup of coffee. That's like if we direct the amount of love and attention to coffee that we do to one, because one tasting is common knowledge and we know there are some of us experts at pairing wine with food that are, you know, like recognizing wine. It's very cool to hear that there's that range. There's that spectrum of tastes of flavors available. Absolutely there. And like I say, for the reaction from the general public is either surprise and also cool that they're happy occasionally you get a little bit of pushback. You get people that are like, I think it comes from there. I think the fear is that they. Feel like something that is just been a basic easy daily choice for them. They just go to the grocery store, and they just buy this brand, and they just make the coffee that we're trying to make it like too complicated, or we're fancied upper that we're going to start charging them more money for it, and that's not true. You know, like the wine has gotten much more expensive and complex over the last forty fifty years. But you can still buy a doll bottle of like what do they call it to buck? Check in the states. And you know, you can get bottles of wine of the Denner for six seven bucks. You'll there will always be inexpensive. Just basic coffee for those people that don't wanna get into that side of it. But it just gives the option for those of us who do you know who are like, wow, that's intriguing you know? And I like the fact that I taste, you know what I'm tasting comes from the work done by these people in this other country and the attention that was made to it. It's like that's a cool thing. So Super Bowl. And if I just do like quick math. Let's say you know, the equipment I purchase to level at my coffee Android. Took your workshop probably like a year and a half ago. Maybe like six hundred bucks total, including the workshop grace, and that's just because you have that super fancy scale. But honestly, like a forty dollar scale and a two hundred dollar grinder and a brewer nail that ranges anywhere from ten to thirty bucks or something like that, a timer that we all have on our phones, a spoon, a kettle and then, like you mean if you buy your, your grains afterwards like a bag of coffee last, like a month instead of going to buy your coffee at Starbucks or your local coffee place. You earn that money back like, really quick. And it becomes kind of this really fun almost meditative process where you enjoy making it. It's not complicated. There's, there's a lot of talk in the inside the industry in that events and things like that to the general public about how coffee I think I remember Stephen Morris. He was a former UK barista champ, saying at first that coffee is still the foodie bargain. Yeah. You know, like the if you talk about what's the lowest price bottle of wine. It's probably that to buck check, what's that most expensive bottle of wine in the world who incident twenty thousand one hundred thousand dollars whatever. But even like even if you go to a restaurant here in Montreal, you know, you can spend five hundred dollars on a bottle of wine at a restaurant if you want, whereas the cheapest coffee is probably, I don't know, maybe five dollars a pound for a bag or something like that. And the most expensive bag of coffee on sale in Montreal right now, I'm going to guess is maybe thirty five dollars for a pound or something. So you're, you're from your lowest to your absolute highest is only a factor of like what seven or something, you know, whereas in wine, it's like. Five thousand or something. So it you can you can really easily treat yourself to a just a daily bag coffee. That's a little bit better. You know every once in a while. So I. Those special cups of filter there, you know, maybe seven dollars because it's a special variety that they bought it auction, maybe from Cup of excellence or something that your local cafes serving, you know, this month only we have exclusive coffee from Honduras, and it's seven dollars. And it's like who I paid twice or three times, what I would normally pay for a filter and I got this super special treat. If you go into spend two or three times more than your normal bottle of wine, it's, it's better, but it's not in the top by far. That's fascinating. We got to the process of roasting, and then we're talking about at what the fix tastes. So, so after roasting, then, again, there's, there's an opportunity for loss, which is how long time passes between when it's roasted and when it's brewed. So there's no way to change flavor in any way, other than just slow loss, which is why we really recommend try and use a coffee. That's been roasted in the last sort of three to four weeks, some coffees last a little longer, some a little less, and you can actually freeze coffee. It's a bit controversial on the industry. But if you I Scott who's again, my mentor. Is very big advocate for you can put roasted coffee and even ground coffee. If unfortunately you're in a situation where you have to have your coffee, pre ground because you're traveling or something like that, in a sealed container in the freezer, and it will massively prolong the freshness of that coffee. So. We'll put that aside. Because like I say somebody's going to take, you know, right in or something you can't do that precious precious fascist. And I'm really big on freshness but it's just that you can increase coffee. So after those three to four weeks like I say can vary a little bit from one coffee to another. There's just a slow loss coffee. Just tends to get a little less interesting, though. Some of those delicate flavor compounds are actually just passing out of the being into the air. So they're not in your company more. And then it's what we spent some time talking about before. It's the brewing yet, you know, I can take a coffee everywhere, from sour and bitter through the balanced, and delicious and through into a stringent. And with this, nasty bitter, aftertaste just based on how I handle, the parameters, and I can actually can have under an over at the same time. Unevenly extraction talked to us about that because that was one of my favorite parts of the of the workshop where you walked us through what an under extracted coffee tastes. Like then you know that sweet spot. Of extraction and over extracted. So when we do the class, I've recently started rejigging how I think about it in my head and how express a little bit. We talk about a bunch of stuff at the beginning. And then we get into the list of the bring parameters yet you can work with, and there's two lists and the second list is I say factors that affect quality, basically, those are the factors that you can screw up, and you can just ruin the coffee like if you use too hot or too, cold water. Or if you have the wrong water chemistry or if you extract the coffee, unevenly you don't pass the water evenly through all the coffee. Some coffee gets way more water than it was supposed to in some gets less. You do any of those things, and you just screw it up. But if you don't if you do those things right. So you don't screw it up, then the other list, which is the factors that affect the rate of extraction kick in, because, like I said the progression of flavors that come out of coffee, the first ones that come out are sort of sour and bitter, then later, there's these sugars that will balance out, though, sour and bitter flavors until. It starts to taste sort of balanced and, and delicious to us. And then if you keep going later on, there's these competence, tannin's actually, it's the same thing in red wines, that give you that astringent pasty, your mouth, kind of thing and in coffee. It also comes along with this nasty sort of metallic bitter aftertaste on the back of your tongue. And I remember you laid out the percentages when the workshop. Yeah. So I mean coffee workshop. Workshop now man. Feeder keeps asking. So the max, you can extract coffee is about thirty or thirty five percent of its mass. The rest of it is unsolvable stuff. So what they started doing in the fifties was extracting coffee from zero to thirty five thirty thirty five as a slight variants depending on how dark the coffees roasted and what variety comes from, but between zero and the max and then asking people, which when they liked best, and they found it sort of eighteen to twenty two is sort of the classic amount of extraction where you're in that middle zone. You've gotten past the sour and bitter to enough of the sugars to balance them out, but you haven't started touching that third group, and we've been able to push twenty two a little bit further now in recent years, better equipment, better grinders, things like that we can go higher and extraction without starting to hit that third group, but classically eighteen to twenty two but yeah, so then, like, I say that other list of parameters affects how fast things extract. And so you're just playing with those in your digging them until you get into that middle. Sweet spot where it tastes, good to you. And there's still a personal. Preference there. You know, like some people like nineteen percent because that's still tastes, a little more sort of fruity, and Tangy and also a little bit more bitterness. They like like the bitterness in dark chocolate, other people want more like twenty two twenty three even now like I say where there's even more sugar, and it's just kind of around sort of chocolate flavor or something like that in India city, and bitterness are reduced a little bit. But do you have a do you love swearing and have a propensity towards anger? Why? Thank you. All right. Hey folks, we had a little audio issue, so we cut off at some point Burgess going to restart. So I was saying that, that why I was asking that question about the anger and, and the swearing is that I feel like you could have the potential to be like the coffees Gordon Ramsay or something. And I, I, I like swearing for comedic affect. I certainly am not the kind of person who likes to. Especially when I walk into cafes. Critique right off the bat. I actually usually wait for people. To ask me. If they if they want some feedback or something like that. But. I generally like with my staff and things like that. I'm the guy who's trying to like do the feedback sandwich. Where say the nice thing, then say the little improvement that could be done, and then, say the nice thing I want everyone to walk out at the end of the day, few, and you're really good and happy and stuff like that. I don't think the yelling at people model early works long-term to the, you may, you may get someone to change something. But long-term the motivation is lost when you do that. But yeah. For sure today before we started making coffee, you saw like you. You notice some things about my grind right off the bat, and it was fun to witness that, that coffee expertise, like what you picked up versus what I was doing. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I notice that you were using a bit, of course or grind, what you should because you were brewing your pour over style coffee in the sixty which is. Thank you. Called the sixty because it's V-shaped and it's a sixty degree angle in the cone, and it's a very common Bruce for poor over coffee. And it's often used to make one Cup at a time. But you can brew as you did multiple cups. You just Portia water more slowly, so it doesn't overflow over the top, or you do multiple pours or some of that. But when you do brew bigger batches, the bed of coffee is going to resist the water a little bit more. There's more material for the water to pass through. So you have to shift your grind a little bit coarser. Otherwise, you'll end up with far too long contact time or something like that. So I immediately saw the grind and then I also saw okay, how much you'd put in there, and I was like, oh, you're making multiple cups thing, and you're like. No. That's that's why I love I love talking to you and I love that opportunity to have you come in and check out the, the way was doing the coffee because it's fun to revisit what we had seen during the coffee workshop at led us to this random question. But it's coming to mind now, the V six Japanese immigration into the Japanese have a specific approach to coffee or they're also kind of on that progressive side of things. The Japanese have a Japanese approach to coffee. There, you know that's the culture that's known for really revering attention to detail in things and taking maybe way longer way more effort than we traditionally, do I watch stuff about like. What was the last one that I saw I wanna say it was. It's a show on Netflix as like Japanese style originators that this one show, like like, oh, this week, we're showing how people make there's a thing. It looks like a little pig, and you burn like charcoal or something in it to, to take yet mosquitoes to go show like this. Most of them are now made by in factories, but there's this one guy who still hand making him in like all the attention. He does to make this little ceramic pig. Stylists. Retainer yesica. It's it's kind of talk show with celebrities. They're, they're, they're asking question. And now we have a wooden stick we have, like a flower, and we've got a fire, so, but what did he use the use it for everybody's like, guessing? And stuff like that is fun to watch every episode. They have they show some ancient technique still in use to do make some product or something like that. You'll enough thought about the originals Javanese stuff, like they've got a water result about tofu yet to oak that, that much trouble for. Yeah. Like, okay, this is not the same thing we're eating here. And so the same thing goes for coffee. You know, you'll see the attention to detail. That's putting any other thing that's really different is that they really don't do a special that much. There are places, and there and there are obsessive Espresso guys, I've seen documentaries about, I think there's a cafe called bear mountain or something like that, where the guy like he won't open if he doesn't like the way the espressos tasting that day or something like that. So. Japanese, but in general, they do much more filter and a lot of the equipment that we now the progressive industry has sort of started adopting to brew filter in tends to come from Japanese companies because they kept going after North America kind of went filter. It's it's done now. And we're moving onto Espresso. They kept going and they kept pushing and so, you know, like at the cafe when you guys would come in. You remember that siphon brewer that I had with allergen beam heater and stuff. All that stuff comes from Japan because that's where people still feel it's worth it. You know, felt it was worth it through the I guess, we call it the dark years of coffee to keep pushing quality and now the qualities new focus, we're starting to pull that stuff time curious like that, where, where should I go in Japan to get the best coffee? Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Unfortunately, I haven't been, I'm I would love to go. My girlfriend is a huge Japan file. She's been once and she's desperate to get. It back. But so I don't have any real research on, on where the best places b but it wouldn't be hard to find. You know, do some Google on. Unfortunately, third wave coffee. Not progressive coffee not using the term yet, but you'd find some good places. But, but yeah, so I'm sorry. I'm not sure where it was. There's a spot that, that opened up recently and much y'all called the Japanese cafe or something, it's like it's there during the Kickstarter phase. They're trying to get the funds so they did like a pop up for a few weeks. And they're really like emphasizing the pour over style. And that's what I was going to say actually was is that if you want your little hit of that style of coffee in Montreal at the moment. I didn't know about this one because it's new and it doesn't surprise me every time I turn my head around. There's a new quality cafe opening, which is awesome. Is focal on the Gaspe. It's French man and his Japanese wife, and they do so that you Japanese food. They do like on Geary and stuff like that. And then they do all siphoned brewed coffees there. So if you want to go check that out, then it's also one of those beautiful classic industrial style cafe, which that's we're maybe moving a little path that. But they're like they hit that note perfectly able to go to a coffee and get Abreu. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean you know. There's a saying that. They say Espresso, but it applies to all coffee is give him an Espresso. He'll drink for a day teach man to make Espresso who'd be free frustrated forever. Especially as more frustrating than filter filters. A little more easy. It's another reason why I like to recommend it when you when you try and do something in thirty seconds. You make everything at tiny bit harder tiny little variations, and things like that have larger effects, but even coffee, you know, like, once you the more you drink better coffee. The joke is the more. The more I get to know coffee, the more I disliked coffee and it's not true. Is that you just like it, but it's just the more coffee, you have that you're like you hiring this, this, this one's not quite as good as that other one that I had become snobbish a little bit. But then I think it's up to you, where you take that side to get like, really cranky about the fact that, you know, like Elvis coffee is not that good. Or there's a problem with this or something. Or do you just start going, this just makes me appreciate those good cups, even more? You don't want to be the person's always complaining about coffee. Okay. Is not good compared to this one, but it's still a decent, what would it take to make this better? And that's the other thing is if worst case I go out and I have a bad Cup or something I can go home, and I can make one myself and I can, you know, correct that errors, something like that. So you rebound ends the cosmic energy with coffee. That is what coffee does cosmic God like substance of things. I fully agree. I will actually say that in addition to the stimulant effects of coffee, it's purely anecdotal. But I've talked to other people about it, and they've sort of said, the same when I have a really well made Cup of coffee. I think there are some compounds in there that have a euphoric effect interesting. I really good Cup of coffee. I'll notice my worldview will literally shift and you could say it's because well, yeah, because you're got better because you had a really do is just a Cup of coffee. But I think chemically that there is stuff when you get that proper balance of extraction that I was talking about in addition to tasting, good, and the caffeine, stimulating you, I think there's a tiny little, there's something in there that just makes you feel like the world's a better place things are going to work out a little bit better. You know so, yeah, so it's a great way to start. Like everybody, I know who loves coffeen is had like a practice of drinking coffee over a long period of time. Even when they do like, okay, I'm, I'm taking a break for X reason, they always come back. It's not like an addict like it's not an addictive substance. I mean like I did a seven day water fast and the beginning of the month. So I cut coffee for that weaking. And I didn't feel any, you know, really any withdrawal effects, you're lucky most people, do I do I can go at day coffee. But if I have to go to I start getting a headache, technically you'd build a tolerance and you need, but it's just not one that's hard to break. Right. You know, you didn't even notice probably were just drinking a lot of extra waters. I love, you know, that your four thing you're describing I missed it for that. But, but maybe it's also because my body was like, okay I need to survive mode. Maybe it covered that. That. Prioritized survival. I give you the coffee headache. I think one of the things is nice about it is, is that it's, it's, you know, the downsides are relatively minimal, you know, it's not too expensive drinking a too much coffee is it would seem hard to me. I, I should roll that back. Like my dad. I remember telling me at one point, he was gonna cut down his coffee, this be in like the late eighties early nineties because I was like how many cups today you have in the office and he's about fourteen. I'm like fourteen. How would you can I think now because of the way we brew coffee now. Like you take the time you do like I'm not gonna do that fourteen times a day. I'm sorry. But that's not gonna happen. So but it's because they were, you know, you're in an office environment. You know, somebody's is making pots constantly, and you're just wandering around grabbing and just you never quite empty your Cup. You just keep topping it up. You could do that. But that's you know less and less places is coffee consumed that way, it's it would be difficult for me. To drink more. And I work in coffee to find the time to make and consume more than I don't know three or four a day. Now, I don't I normally stick to one or two, but, like even three or four there's no real downside to that healthwise. So the only negative thing is, is that yeah you can't really just stop for a few days. You know, you kind of have to keep going a little bit or or ramp down, or pay the price for stopping suddenly it doesn't have. It's not too expensive. It's not only not bad for your health at reasonable dosages. But most research shows, it's there's anti-oxidants. There's other things that can be helpful for you. It can get you if you're a single mom, and you're tired, and can be the thing that gets you up and gets you out to get your kid to school. You know, it's a way for friends to sit together and talk. It's a thing that gets guys to record podcasts. I don't know. I like it. I would say that right now we have more and more social aspects associated to coffee compare them. Then before before it was something to boost your day or just something to drink at the office. But the right now, it's like, oh, instead of going for drinks. Let's get a coffee and with all those progressive coffee popping up everywhere you can really find a nice base that fits removed that's fits, your, your taste, buds, and everything. But I think for that, that I find it brain dressing, that was one of the reasons that I did, eventually, when I got tired of the film industry, I got tired of the work life balance issues. I got tired of. Some of the people that I was working for to be perfectly honest. And decided, you know what I'm going to try and go out on my own. Coffee. One of the reasons I picked, it was because it's a social thing, and I'm an extrovert I get energy from talking to people. So the idea that I was going to be enough, and I was going to be talking with my workers and also with my customers, and they know that coffee is a very social lubricant that way, sort of in the same way as alcohol, but obviously, in a different way, just the stimulation of caffeine will make people chat and talk more in the history of coffee. That was actually disruptive was that there was a time in history in, let's say western Europe, where most people drank alcohol, most working people drank alcohol, there was no water sanitation and so water wasn't safe to drink. But when you brewed you made that water safe and so people would literally drink beer all day long and stuff. So the working classes were kind of drunk, most of the time, and then Coffey came along. And because you boil the water that sanitized the water, and these little coffee shops would open. And then, so suddenly people were sitting there and instead of just being drunk. They were sitting, and they were awake and they were talking. And then they started saying things like I don't know if we're getting a fair deal from their local feudal lords. Maybe it'd be an also different classes, and different groups of people were meeting in, in the same place. And so there was cross pollination of ideas. And so there was a pushback from the powers that be at the time they actually tried to get coffee outlawed by the pope at one point. At his. So 'cause all Wickham pedia but yeah, it's, it's fun. But because of that because it's. It was the first time that people could sit together and in not a diminished mental state from alcohol, but an actual elevated mental state from the caffeine start talking and thinking and share ideas and stuff. So, yeah. Just hopping on that in referring also to something you said earlier where, you know, coffee isn't isn't a luxury item in terms of a purchase but it offers you kind of a luxury experience of being around people. This thing you can go out of the house, and sit and do really I mean when you're where you're going to be guaranteed to be surrounded by people go to a park, you can go for a walk. But like go sit in a cafe and have a Cup of coffee. And look at people talk to people meet friends. Yeah, that's amazing stuff. So let's say coming back to your story, the progression from two thousand five. Going down the rabbit hole of making an amazing coffee at home to two thousand eight starting to work at, at cafe Maria under the tutelage of Scott wral. What, what was that? Like, does that a huge career move. Is that like committing to coffee now find the best place? I wanna make the best Cup of coffee and I have a plan. Yeah. Well, like I said, I you know, I was I was really kind of burned out on what I was doing at the time, you know, video games, computer animated cartoons, which is basically TV production and then film production, our jobs where, you know, work life balance is an issue. I think one of the reasons why the video game industry is getting better now is they're starting to address that kind of thing a little bit more finally. But back when I was doing it, it was no holds barred. I did a forty eight hour shift wants electric arts awhile. And so, you know, I was burned out on that. And like I said, I was burned out a expand a little bit. I was Vernet on some of the people I was working for in film. I would often find myself in situations where the person was reporting to had never done, what I did never done my job. And didn't really understand the processes, Sara Lee particularly here in Montreal. For example, a lot of the visual effects houses were founded in based around advertising, and I was working on the film side. And the, you know, the people management above me, did not get you couldn't treat film people the way you treated advertising people really basic, for example, advertising is booked by the hour. So whatever work you're doing if they make a million changes. It's fine because they pay for it. Yeah. Film, you make a bid, they say, okay, we want this as a shot, you say, okay. That'll be this much dollars, and they say okay, and you sign a contract, and then you keep you start working on it. And if they're not happy, you, keep going, and obviously, for management at a certain point, they start feeling like they're being abused or whatever you know, but the other side of that is. Me and between looking at the shot and listening to what the customers saying in going. Yeah. You know what? It's not very good, yet it does need more work. And that's our bad today. So I got tired of that fight a little bit as well. And so, I was I was about two years into coffee as a hobby at the time, and I was like. Okay, if, if I'm going to have to live with bad decisions, they might as well be my bad decision. I you know, the term that popped into my head several points through my career is that I'm kind of a reluctant entrepreneur. I would very happily. Have if I had found a boss and a job that that was a good fit for me. I would have kept doing that forever. I really decided to go on my own just because I was like, yeah. Healy said that in love the way you're phrasing it because for me that's the essence of entrepreneurship is having a dream or vision. And then if someone is out there already doing that. It's celebrating that dream and the vision. But then if it's not existing then it's kind of year responsibility to make it happen for me. That's like kind of the essence of entrepreneurship. And the thing is I don't know if that really applies the reluctant part of the reluctant entrepreneur, for me was is that I was really just looking for a situation that I wasn't miserable going into work. Yeah. I was just trying to create a better place for me and the coffee was secondary. So it seems because of the fact that I can talk at length of a coffee like I'm really hugely passionate about coffee, and I would say, probably in a certain way I am. But I actually I just shows coffee because it was like, Well, I, I know there's this movement is happening at the time, there was just a cafe or Java. And then the second one by the way, I had opened. In the meantime, in those two years, which was. Engand caffeine gamma that still exists over on park. And I was like located there's clearly a room in the market. You know, if I open I'm not going to be the two hundred one in style. I'm going to be like if I can or something by the time I got open. I wasn't even in the first ten but still I knew that this was something that was growing. So I just kind of went people always say, take your what your hobby the thing you're doing in your own time for free anyway. And then just do that for money. So it was kind of a perfect storm, but it really wasn't I, I worked with people all the time in the industry. I have people that work for me. And I'm really happy that are like so passionate about coffee that, like they would they would do it for nothing. You know. You know, I don't let them do it for nothing. But, but they would yeah I'm not that person. I really I picked coffee and I picked entrepreneurship because I was trying to solve that particular problem that I wanted something that I could do that. I felt good about that. I liked. And it was a situation that I liked. And like I say, I decided if sure I make mistakes is not released, they'll be my mistakes, then the frustration that I felt that having to deal with what I felt I could clearly see were mistakes or bad decisions, or not seeing the situation, correctly and that I then had to bear the responsibility for that. I was like, at least if I'm going to deal with I'm going to bear that responsibility. They might as well be my calls that was that cleared to you from the get-go started working at Mary at you knew exactly where you're headed for. That's the thing. I quit the film industry and I and then I spent about a month, sorta thinking about it and went, you know what I'm gonna do coffee. And I saw out the job at myriad. I knew that Anthony, who was one of the first owners was was looking to open. I didn't know that Scott was involved at the time. I remember the first time that another coffee person that I met at a competition around that time said, wow, you get to work for Scott. You know, that's, that's a great first job. And I was like, really? But as it turns out, I could not have fallen in, in a better situation, but I approached Anthony because I was like this is probably going to be the best cafe in the city at the time that it opens, and I just want to learn, and I was the first person hired we I met him at his job at the time, which was in the old port on at cafe Sante Veritas, and we started crossing the street. And I told him that I wanted to come and work for him. And he hired me before we got to the side. And the I just went and I worked for a year. And I was very open that I was there to learn because they eventually wanted to open my own place, and they were totally supportive of that stuff. So I just did that intensive training, totally with the idea that I was going to have my own place in mind. What did you take home from that year at Marietta that you could have never learned on your own taken, like ten times longer all of the technical brewing stuff from Scott? And then in addition, a bunch of the sort of cafe logistical stuff I didn't get all of it, some of it. I still had to figure out on my own. But like by the time I finished that year there, I mean, I'm still learning with every weekly goes by, but I learned more than enough to open a place where I could be very confident in the quality of the period that I was producing. And so I do a lot of consulting now for people that want to open cafes. And the piece of advice. I most commonly say that nobody wants to hear is quit your job and go work as a barista for a year or two. Because most people they're like, oh, I couldn't really afford to do that. I'm like, you know, you can do it without that I there are ample, that I've found where people start a cafe and they just they get as much training as they can. And, or they more often they hire someone who already really knows coffee, and if they do it, right. They get that person to teach them while they're working to a point where when that person is ready to move on there and a good position. So it can be done that way too. But the, the two-time Irish two or three time Irish barista champ, Colin Harmon talks all the time about, you know, people say to them, you know, like I want open a cafe. What should I do? And he's like go work in a cafe. You know, like if you're an architect and. And I say to you, hey. Yeah. You know, I want to I want to have an architecture studio of my own in two years. What should I do like, well start working as an architect, you know, like that really? It's the very best way to do it. And so, so that, you know, all of the like I say, all the technical brewing, and coffee, knowledge and a fair amount of the how to organize and logistically run a cafe came out of that time for sure. And obviously I just keep adding to it. So, so then when did the when did the move start to be made to open the knife, so I left myriad after about a year and I started looking for spaces on my own, and I started doing just some training contracts for forty ninth parallel some of their clients in town. I would go around and do some training. I did consulting contracts for some people that wanted I went and worked at other used to be a restaurant called Monty lay in town that had a small little cafe, which is now. Larry's. Oh, fairmont. But we were in there. It was a small bar called the bag tavern or something. And they were like, well, we want to turn it into a small cafe during the day at six months helping them get equipment and set it up and train people and get it open and stuff like that. So little contracts like that, while I was looking for my space, and it took way longer than I'd hoped to find the space. I was looking maybe three days a week. And it took two years finally. Got into that. Like did you have very specific idea of what you want to? And, and, you know, a specific neighborhood that I wanted to be in, I wanted to be roughly in the plateau, and I wanted to really particular type place and stuff and I ended up getting exactly what I wanted. I got my little romantic neighborhood coffee shop, and I'd worked at Mary, Ed. And in the beginning, it was very small and size wise. It's still small, but it was a little small cafe where we knew the names of the people and some of that, but over that year by the end of that year, you know, we were cranking and they've doubled business since then. So that's a I got less and less interested when it became more and more of a just put your head down and just crank drinks for eight hours. Don't talk to anybody kind of job. However myriad makes a ton of money. So I got exactly what I wanted. I got my little perfect neighborhood romantic place with my regular customers I could chat with and stuff. But money was always an issue and. You know, I signed that lease on Saint Dini. And I think part of the reason why I signed it was because the two years was long. You know like. One of the ways what feels like when you're doing that it's kind of the same as what it feels like when you're job, hunting, you go out every day and fail. And it's not true. You know as long as you look you succeed, basically. Yeah, that's all you have to do is look every day. But every day, you don't find something you're just like you know, so it got me down. And I think that eventually I found a place that fit all the criteria in my head. But my problem unbeknownst to me, was that at the time I signed was kind of the, the peak the end of the peak of Saint, Denise as a commercial street, and it's really been dropping down down, when, Peter, I met you and you were working at Lululemon, which doesn't exist there anymore. Either most of those the block that I was in just north of mount Royal, I walked the other day and the other side of the street is still empty almost all along so Saint Anita slowly died and it's a vicious circle. The more places close than the less people come to the area. And then the less people come to the area, the more places close and in a way. Now, it's not the knife anymore note that, that spot is kind of a lifetime. Line for that area. Go there. There's the, the attrac- which I highly recommend as a taco joint just half a block, south. Yeah. Amazing food, but yeah, there's there's just a couple of places kind of holding on, and it's going to renovate like the big empty space across when there was the gain which was the like the bookstore for educational books and stuff. And it was the notices it was going to be a grocery stores may as they're turning it into condos now. So it's fine. I'm I'm not I'm not anti. And honestly, like that's more people than living in that neighborhood. And then that will support. Businesses. But that's what Saint Denise is in the process of shifting to is instead of being a destination where they need businesses like big clothing stores, that need a lot of people to come every week in order to make it profitable. They're going to shift more towards small businesses that just serve the people that live there. Billy couldn't the bar is also an anchor in that area. The cafe is managing to do it. The little restaurant, you know, they don't need people to come from all over the city because those people don't go there anymore, they go Griffin town now are sent Henry or wherever, so that was the thing is, is that over the time that I had it, it, you know, as we would normally expect business to be going up as we get more and more people in the neighborhood to know where there, instead we kind of plateaued out, because we were dealing with the fact that there were less and less people coming. So we sort of went flat after about year one or two and then just sort of stayed there, and the last straw was the construction that started a little further south in front of Lululemon there. Yeah. Even though it wasn't in our block. There was a thirty percent drop in business. The day they started. And I was just like I'm out also had the academy already starting. So it was really easy for me to just go. Okay. I'll just make that switch because 'cause I imagine also that the margins aren't that great in a coffee. Shop, you have the hustle a crazy to make it profitable. Yeah. And people don't realize it and part of it is our stigma about talking about money. You know, nobody wants to say how much they make and things like that. So there's a there's a belief that coffeeshops make a ton of money. And I made this mistake I didn't go, and if I, maybe I could if I if I asked really politely asked to see some actual numbers for people even from Scott. Anthony, I never really asked them, what the financial side was like I just did the same thing. And I think most people do, which is well, a bag of coffee costs this much and a Cup cost that much. So you must be making a killing and it's just not true. The Collin Harmon that I mentioned earlier has a book that I haven't actually read yet, I've read excerpts. And I recommend it toll. My consulting customers it's called what I know about running coffee shops, and he has a lot of breakdown and information in there that actually shows like for the price of a Cup of coffee how much you're likely to really make. But even if we expand to restaurants instead of just coffeeshops because restaurants, obviously have higher costs, but they also have way more volume in money coming through they can sell alcohol. Who's a good restaurant are really good restaurant makes eight percent profit margin in imagine that eight percent eight percent margin and at the same time, yeah. You, it's not that much, and you're worrying about just keeping the clients coming in, like, what you just express with the with the nice home and he things can go wrong. So many things that must be that must be a stress free environment for the, you know, the person owning this is the section of entrepreneurship that I know. But I'm sure it's not significantly different in, in many ways. There's other different challenges and stuff. But you're, you're always, it's always the same thing. It's, you know. Bills coming in money coming in bills, you know, making money go out and, you know, having a man, all of that around it surprised in regulation has just up from the where somebody's going to you say, oh, by the way didn't filled out that form and you're done at that permits. What? I remember the first year that I had the cafe that when the letter arrived from so can which guys it's not much. But I mean it's just another in the long list of things that you weren't expecting. So can is. As music rights, just the fact that you are playing music publicly. They take your floor space or something like that. And they charge you a certain amount per year for the fact that you're playing music, how much I think, I think it was like or. Dependent or three hundred year for my cafe. Oh, yes. The same thing for the gym at the house. House, and it's, it's not a ton, but it's, it's the death by Southland cats. Then the person that comes in refills your fire extinguishers, every year, does the service that so that you don't get a ticket from the fire inspector. It's all these little things that you're like, oh, I didn't put that in my budget. And that's where the, the profit that you, you know, you look at that you do the math for the cop, and you're like, oh, you know profit must be seventy five percent. That's what eats it away. Everyone knows about the rent and the employee salaries and, you know, your utilities, but there's all the other stuff. All those bills defensive life with the poor like yet make sense. I'm gonna make tons of profit, but Indian death by small cuts out like that. Was it bittersweet to, to leave the night? And how did you find a buyer? It's Marietta's yes secret that that's mirrored. So that's kind of the continuation of your relationship with Mary, I just put out the word and you know, one of the people who was good at spreading. The word was Spiro, who is the local distributor and Montreal for forty ninth parallel coffee, and so- Spiro just because it's the kind of thing where you don't wanna you wanna get the word out to people who potentially by, but you don't wanna make it a general thing because you don't want your customers to suddenly be like, I mean, I don't I'm not sure the customers would necessarily abandon you. But, you know, you don't want that lame duck feeling of like oh, they're going, you don't wanna put like a first sale sign in the window. If you can avoid it. Yeah. So he discreetly put out the word and I had discussions with a bunch of people, but Yeltsin was not Anthony Scott's no longer with Marianne, but it wasn't Anthony. It was the other guy that had body in after Scott left that ended up buying the cafe from me and. I don't know if I even had time for it to be a bitter. Sweet thing I was like I've got us Elvis. It's literally a financial requirement. And I've got this other thing starting up, and I've really got to start focusing more on that. Yeah. So it was it was very difficult. It was a logistical headache. And it wasn't made easier by a bunch of other stuff that happened. But it you know, I actually just yesterday I think finished the very last piece of lucrative business that I had to do, which is that I last summer I am Malcolm aided the company still exists it. I didn't sell the company. Okay. I transferred the lease and I sold the assets. But the company still existed on paper and I was actually able to use some of the loss and stuff that was in the cafe. I can now amalgamating it with the academy. I'll pay less taxes for a little while. So at least there's that, but I just finally got the final notice of assessment firm revenue Quebec for the last tax emission. We. For the cafe, and it is a facially done. Congrats. So thank you. But yeah, you know. I mean I'm really hoping that in several years, the arc of this story is that was the first business that didn't really work out. But that I learned a bunch of stuff from, like, I would not have the academy, if I didn't hadn't had the cafe, I learned a bunch of my bring stuff while I was at Marietta, but I continued to learn more, and then I also got experience running a place which allows me to now consult to do consulting for people and it gave me a bunch more street cred. Like nobody really knew who I was why would someone pay to come and have a coffee lesson from this guy who had worked for a year at one place. But now I'm for four years, I had a cafe that ranked well in reviews, and it was considered fairly well, and I got a bit of a reputation and was able to leverage that, and it was the most one, it's still is because it's the same style into the most beautiful cafes on shelf like you had a sense. I think you're the first cafe that I went to the head like you up the game in terms of the. Get your water you had that, like little specialized area where it was like pitchers, and ice, actually, I did steal that. It wasn't the first I sold out from caffeine game. I mean obviously, there's places all around the world will have that, but it locally, I stole that from caffeine Gamba, that was at least the two years that was one of the things that I did with those two years was I over thunk everything, and I'm an over thinker nobody's ever accused him undertaking, except signing that lease on Saint Sania. But otherwise I spent that, that two years thinking about, you know, like I want the thing for the water over there, separates and so customers can serve themselves because I hated when I would go into cafes restaurants, and I would say, I'd make my order, and whether you're sitting down at the table or whether you're ordering Kennedy's, and then can I get a glass of water and they go? Yeah. No problem. And I mean, I've been in service, you know, in my twenties, and some of that, and I remember doing that. You're like yeah water, that's easy. No problem. So you immediately forget it. You work on the other thing, and it sucks because it's ex for the barista like, I would or the service person, like I say when I was a waiter, I would literally in the middle of the night, wake up and go, oh my God. I never bought that guys. The sex for the customer, because they're like, well, I really want the water. But if I ask, again, then I'm embarrassing the server for forgetting. So I was like, I'm just going to put that over there. And I thought through almost everything, you know, like where it was going to put the printers so that we would have the chits and for the orders and you know how this was gonna flow, and what size cups and how much space I wanted between the person at the cash and the person ordering I did a little cut in, in that bar design, so that when you handed the money to someone you didn't have to reach just to make it that, you know, like reduce the friction of that experience a little bit like all of that kind of stuff at least I got to do that. And I'm I definitely still feel good when I look back on that place aesthetically. Functionally how it worked and things like that. I, I did exactly what I wanted to do was very little that once we got open that I went with it on that a little different other than the location. I feel like you really instilled something in those two years, because first of all, what I liked when I was going there as a client was that you were there, a lot of the time, and you could see that the focus that you brought to the game. And I know it must have had an impact on the employees or with you like if your bosses there and he's like giving it like one hundred and ten percent and can't you can't not bring that level of focus and attention to things. That's the lesson that I took from like being in those film, industry jobs and stuff where the boss who didn't know how to do what I do I. I mean you can't do this in every industry, but coffee is a simple enough. You know, cafes is simple enough industry that I can say like I've done everything I'm asking you to do. And I would also try, I would make sure that I still clean toilets periodically and stuff. It would be doing the clothes. I wouldn't always just do the machine in the cash. I'd be like I'll do the bathrooms you do that. You know, things like that. But I made sure that I wasn't asking anyone to do anything that I wasn't ready and capable to do myself. Yeah. And yeah, you're right. I mean as a way that's a, that's a way of leading without having to Gordon Ramsay people all the time. I'd still watch that show. You're like I say, I love the comedy of, of really a few swearing in the British do it better than anybody. Like one thing that I didn't know is that you start him on shell coffee, academy wall, the knife is open. So that's like, that's borderline masochistic starting a second while you're in, like full wealth running the first one of the things that because of that, that eight percent margin at best that you're getting, I think, like that's restaurants in general, on assuming it's roughly the same for coffee for just like a pure cafe pure cafe that doesn't exist. But what I mean is a cafe that just does like coffee and page or something doesn't do like meals that. One of the ways that people deal with the fact that there's just that eight percent is they often end up opening a second or third location. And they ended up having to stop working so much at one and pay someone to do that. So then suddenly, they make a little less out of that one, but then eventually, they make it more in volume over over time. So opening a second place was not an illogical thing to do it was until the construction started we were eking out a survival. I was making some money was maybe slowly leaching a little so having another one to balance. It wasn't a bad idea. But yeah, I, I, I wasn't really attracted to the idea that I might open a second one, and it might still do the same. So I was looking for a model that, that was a little easier to get profit out of that, you know, the, the way that it works out with the academy is, I'm basically selling my knowledge. So my costs are significantly lower. My space is smaller. I don't. Need as many employees are bunch of our equipment is actually on loan. That didn't cost me that much to get it up and going, okay. And, you know, I it doesn't cost that much to buy a few bags of beans and a few things every week to to give classes on basically selling what's in my head. And so as a result, quite prophet is already higher, but the I had been sort of mowing over the fact that I kept getting approached at the show. By a restaurant and cafe owners and stuff saying, you know, can you train us can you do a class or something? And I was like, man, I don't have time. I'm like, I'm working on this thing you know, seven days a week, almost not quite, but even the seventh days is my brain is working on it. And at the same time, I had an employee, David LaLonde, who had worked at Saint Henri where they were doing some basic classes on home brewing and things like that, and some comings and stuff like that. And so he approached me with the idea of sort of putting those two ideas together is a place where we can do classes for the public, but then also do some training and consulting for businesses. So the idea, originally actually was that he was going to mostly be the man on the ground. And I was going to be sort of behind the scenes, I was going to help design curriculums. And then I would handle the things like accounting and stuff like that, that I already knew how to do from the cafe, but then when the construction started and suddenly it wasn't financially. Tenable. Anymore. I just switched and became more of a, you know, on the ground, kind of guy. So it could have worked the other way. But David would be much more involved in stuff. And as a result, he, and I were able to sort of split it a little bit, and then eventually lasts. Gosh was summer twenty sixteen. I think no twenty seven is summer twenty six teams when we opened the gate kademi summer 2017 David decided, he wanted to move on and go work for roaster. So because I was there and I was on the ground, I was able to take that role and just keep going. Yeah. So that's that's interesting. Just this random question when you when you start a company like that, do you have to, like, biotech, your partner in that situation? Or are you just leaves and it really depends? But I did buy you would buy the personnel there. If the company was doing well, and there was any kind of value or something, usually, you have a partnership agreement, in place, beforehand, that you should lays out, all make sure to have a very. Good one. Yeah. I have a great lawyer name is Neil stoop, ller. I highly recommend who will work you through all the situations like what happens if one of you is incapacitated, and is in the hospital and can't make decisions anymore. At what point you know, like all of the stuff that could happen. Lays out those sort of, like, what happens if one of you just get pissed off at the other stops coming into work? So there's ways that are pre built into handle all of that stuff. So David Nyathi really, we didn't do that before we started. We knew we wanted to get to it. But we were actually just trying to save on lawyer's fees. But happily we started working on the partnership agreement where we decided that we actually wanted to go our separate ways, so happily we were able to work something out. But I gave him a chunk of cash and I'm paying him a little every month until September. Okay. And then it's all mine. I mean it's all my now in terms of chairs and stuff, but good deal. Yeah. Yeah. And has the vision for the academy changed over the course of three years, we did start off thinking that we would actually maybe do some catering and stuff like that, as well, like do some small events and stuff. And then we just rapidly realized that, like, that's a separate business. It's like people that have my cafe, and they would be like, you know, so you want to roast coffee, and I'm like, that's a whole different deal. There are cafes do. Both. But it's basically two businesses living in the same space in that case. And we rapidly realised like for our friend Maxime at cafe pizza. He his inter entrepreneurship story is Grady started with a little bike. Maksim ruling. Still got the bike. They roll it out occasionally for events for catering and things like that. And they also have a regular machine that they can take for catering and stuff, but he started doing that doing, like mobile little pop up things and bootstrapped himself up to an actual brick and mortar location. Then he's he just has the experience and he has the equipment so really early on I just started going, you know what? Go ahead. You know, just send send that to max, he can deal with it. We'll focus on the classes, and the consulting and training for for cafes and restaurants. Yes. And let's say you could look back and give some pointers to Chris circa, two thousand nine thousand twelve on starting a business. What would you tell your before I opened the toe in the starting sort of throws of it? I don't know if I could I could go back in time, and tell him like I wouldn't believe it. We talked when I came on that I was a little hesitant to come on entrepeneurship podcast because I feel like you know, my experience has not been particularly good. I mean from certain point of view, and the point of view. I try and take most of the time I still feel like I'm successful but I mean I lost a ton of money. I lost a ton of money I had to sell my condo, the relationship I was in, when I started the cafe was a woman that was in coffee, and thought she was ready and was not ready to deal with what it meant to me in my life. And that ended like the stress the mental effects, I've used to my family has some depression, and stuff. And so I knew that I through my life, I fought against oppression a little bit by then I got to meet anxiety, depressions, annoying bigger. And I've fought a lot of that even things like my like my lifespan is I know that the toll on my organs that I paid through that time. And that, I'm, you know, maybe still paying a little bit because I'm working my way back to healthier lifestyle and stuff now as things are starting to come around. It's a huge cost. And so, like I say, I could go back in time, and I can try and tell that person that, you know, all of these things are going to happen. Are you sure you want to do this? But I'm sure that guy would go knock come on. But it's fun when you do open up about this kind of stuff to other people that have done it. You realize really soon. You're not alone. It's really Enzi to, to lionize, and celebrate the stories of people that have where it's gone really great. And it's mostly been sunny days or they'll say, you know, like there was a tough stretch. But you know look at us now. You don't hear so much about the people that, like just crashed. Right out. And you know, they're in the majority. Absolutely. I most of what I read is that most people who are successful in business. Have I failed multiple times that business and I'd love to hear? What kept you afloat, when you're facing these, these challenges of depression, and anxiety and natural view. Matt, you want to jump in to if you had like these, these moments of doubt that you like what did you do to serve stay resilient in the face of that, and keep going because a wireless thing, your story, I'm like, oh, you stop by not to do you, sell you sell like two years. So that's, that's still in the trench in the first two year. So you're just trying to get a flow. So there's a lot of society that you're saying, a lot of stressors will of pressure to any couple anything, so it's kind of I can I can relate how you feel about it. When people say, oh, you, you had a coffee shop, you run at your. Yes, but not really because there's still this. Fitting of being an impostor get. Yeah. You had a business. Yeah. This this, but I'm not successful like those guys, when I opened a lot of my family and friends where like, congrats, you did it. Because they knew how many years, it took me to get to that point. And I'm like, no, no, no. I haven't done it. Not at all. Like they're like, yeah, but it look at it, it's beautiful and the coffee's good. And I'm like, we have lit. Let's take an extreme example. Anyone could open a wildly popular restaurant if they sold lobster for two dollars a plate. It's just that, that restaurants not going to succeed as a business. Exactly. It's like opening the doors now. We get to see this is the beginning of the long thing, where we see whether I so there is that people are telling you like your great your places open your success. Oh, no, no, no. I know because like me and five or six years and thought, and we'll open my Bank statement. And then we can see whether I'm quote unquote, a success six year later in ten years later this till the same stress, that's coming on. I would say you got you better equipped to deal with it. But the same stress than at the beginning than that I'm leaving entrepreneur right now. It's still close to the same thing. Yeah. You can meet me. It's gotten better for sure, you know, the fact that it was it was actually about four and a half years. I had the cafe and then moved on. And now I've had the academy from two and a half and the last year or so on my own. Net the advantage to the fact that this model of businesses more profitable, is that the day to day worrying about bills and stuff has started to back off, now it's just the stress of the debt that I'm still dragging behind me a little bit and stuff. So it's shifted a bit for me. But yeah. Some of it will always still be there. Just just being the person who's the last line of resort for something if something goes terribly wrong, or whatever it's like, well, that's his problem that guy, you know, be there. Would you say that, if you didn't open up the first you'd be dealing the same the same way as you you're doing right now with academy? Maybe because the learning curve, the learning curve happened, then already so I already had done that sort of bit of side of it. And so I would have to be doing that now but it would be less because. Assuming that this business was as profitable. Now, as I said earlier, I think that I needed the credit from just opened the academy without the credit probably wouldn't have done. But if we can make a magical, simulation where this business starts, and makes the same money doing. I think it would be a bit easier. It definitely. You know, having money to pay the bills makes a difference. But, but yeah, it wouldn't it wouldn't you know, we're not talking like ten times easier or even a fifty percent easier or something like that. It's just it's a bit easier because that side of it, I don't have to worry about so much. So. I think that's those are really important points that you guys are bringing up too, because I think we often see the, the more glorious sides of entrepreneurship, especially for our resources are like Instagram pages and Facebook pages. That's easy to sensationalize but it's it's a grind. I haven't started a business like both of you. But the parallel that alpha here is that it's a bit like parenting since that, you know, it's like, what you were saying, when you, you have the Sunday off, but your brain still in the business, again, you don't really have a day off. You're always kind of like thinking and that's kind of the nature of the game. And I guess it must be that period of adoption to that twenty four seven, you know, reality of being an entrepreneur that. Yeah, because the the way you manage your time become very flexible, I would say, because when the stress from the day to day start to drop you open up a will world of creativity for your brain because now you're not paying the Bill. You're not managing employees making sure that everything is clean and sparkle, and now you're. Try to relax in that moment. You're like, oh, I could do that, and work on that, and you're like, oh, let's start working for the laptop, and you just start to write down what you have as an idea. That's the best case scenario worst-case scenario is, is that when you're, there's just a certain break in time, where you, there's no crisis, you have to immediately deal with that your brain just goes like off. It just goes and you can't do anything. I feel we were talking earlier that when we talking about ukulele and stuff, I'm starting to pick up musical instruments, again, after sorta like six or seven years, because I just I didn't have it in me. I didn't have that energy required to like, just pick up and do something when I when I wasn't working, I would be just kind of frozen. The first. Would be pro probably that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you get you get to all your bills on whistle in line. You're like, yeah. Okay. My first and second years, we're, we're kind of the toughest and then, like, I say, even though money got hardest towards the end. I think mentally I was more prepared to, like okay dig myself out and you know, it was it was a very difficult process as I mentioned. But I was there ready to, to do that it cost me. But I, I the first year when I got sort of seventy eight months in and I started doing the math and realizing where this was kind of maybe heading, I couldn't say, for sure, I was at that point, I was like, maybe second still going to be significantly better. But as I said earlier, ultimately, it turned out that sort of from second year on it was just kind of flat until close to the end. I was just not prepared for that. I was really thinking it was going to just go pretty good. And pretty soon I was going to have the money and it was going to be there at the beginning. It's normal that it's not when I started realizing, wait a minute. Let's do the projection that was. Yeah. Because there's kind of an aspect of an entrepreneur would say, you're, you're kind of always positive or up his stick with for what the future is, is going to bring you. And you're like oh, yeah. Okay. But I just need to work a little bit more of a marketing all just need to work on optimize that and other it'd be better. I mean you're moving the margin. But as soon as you looking at the cold ARD number, you're right. Oh, yeah. That's under the ball game. And so your question of the very beginning of this little section was, what did what did I do to keep going through that one answer would be the love of my family and friends. And then, you know, the people that were close to me that I could turn to you and talk about also people in the community, you know, that when I could talk to other owners and things like that, and we, we commiserate, and you get at least feel like I'm not the only one and maybe get a few suggestions. But also, there was a certain it was like try to like I just got to keep the head above water. If I just stop then what happens? So there's a certain amount of kill keeping going because you just think you have to keep going, which is I mean, in my case it kinda worked out in other situations. It might not be the right choice. And I want to throw this in there, too. You know, an entrepreneur podcast is, like, don't negate the possibility of just packing it in, when I follow a lot of people on the internet in restaurants and stuff like that. And like one of the sort of archetypal. Comments, and stuff is is like open your place and get it up and going, try and get a good review in the first week if after the first month, you're not in black. Slow close it like you are not it's not going to get very. Cafe restaurant harassed full on restaurant month. That like they're like, if you're not making money after a month statistically, the chances that you're eventually going to are very, very slim while and you're actually better off just closing it. I think that's a bit extreme. I don't know. And I'm happily that I decided consciously not to trying to get into full restaurant hood. I just tried to stick with a smaller subset of that. But I would say that, you know, it's a valid choice and people in the same way that as we talk about, you know, like people that end up being very successful. They often have a couple of failed businesses in their past. If you're gonna fail fail sooner. You know, I it's tough to make that call after all the stuff you've invested and things like that. But sometimes that is the smarter choice. I'm not sure for me again because I what I ended up building. I leveraged into this business. So I wouldn't say that for me maybe I should've shut it down sooner. But I think there are certainly situations where that's not a bad choice, even if it means bankruptcy, you know, I've been talking to a lot of friends and stuff like that, about the fact that, like, especially if you're on the younger side, which is also the better. Entrepreneurship, it's not that big a deal. And sometimes it can get you out of five six seven years of pain. Like when when I did this fast. So the beginning of the month, I was just like I'm going to do seven days. It's happening, and the first five days, we're fairly smooth sailing in the six day. My body started rejecting water. Oh, fun. Yeah. So like threw up water once and then I was like I thought it was because I drank too much, and then lie down and then came. And then on Sunday, it continued that was like this is seventh day. I'm not going to stop. But I could I was like in really bad shape on some, and if you could have gone back in time and stopped on four or five. And that's what I realize I hadn't defined clearly. What we're what we're stoppage signs. Right. And so when I got to the point where the I should've stopped probably day six that was like one more day my my stubbornness game in and also I made it public and like I'm thinking about when you your family's saying congrats. There's also this feeling of shame that comes into play. Like, okay, I'm going to have to explain to people it's like when you break up from a relationship, and then you have to relive that break-up every time you see like mutual acquaintance and kind of like. Yeah. You don't then you have your spiel or stuff or whatever it's like you have this emotional work beyond the actual closing of the thing that has more to do with, like your expectation, and the communities expectation around a lot of entrepreneur, most entrepreneurs would have a certain degree of that. But like a small startup or something like that is different than a cafe that's visible on the corner. And everyone knows your face. And you live in that neighborhood. For sure there's, there's a little bit of that around it and stuff as well. But honestly. You know, when you're when it got bad enough, and I was really having a tough time I would have happily taken the quote unquote. Shame of publicly failing it was just that I was like I wasn't sure that, that was an option for me at that point. But I think people should keep that option on the table and having as you say, if you can try and set for yourself, certain points, where you're like if it's not this by this, like that story about the restaurant if you're not in the black by a month or whatever, but something like that. That would be great. It's tough in the moment to make those calls. I remember when I started really struggling calling and talking to Vincent. Oh, who's the owner of Ford ninth parallel Vancouver, and his advice was he was actually willing to send a barista out from Vancouver to work my shifts? He was like, get time off, like just stop sleep. He's like you can't when you're that tired and you're that burns, you can't think and I did do I pulled back for two weeks. We actually had to produce the hours at the cafe in order because I didn't have enough people to cover shifts and things like that. But I took the two weeks, I rested a little bit. And then I found some ways to make it a bit better. But ultimately than the foot traffic thing, kind of advice Doda, take that time off, if you, it's not always an option. But sometimes, like I was thinking it wasn't. And then I realized there's a way there's a way to do this. And, and you know what happened during those two weeks was at that point. We were still only open six days a week because I was like I definitely need at least one full day myself to, to rest, and I could train people up and stuff to do a bit more. But I couldn't quite see, for some reason, I don't even remember now what the block was, but I just couldn't quite see how we could schedule seven and just getting a bit of a rest. I suddenly went, no, wait a minute. If we put this year and that there and this guy I definitely trust to be there for me when I'm not here. And, and, and I just I made that happen. But I couldn't have if, if I hadn't sort of had that break. And maybe, you know, like I say, that's the break where somebody else is going to make the call of, you know what, like it's not worth it any more so with that. But it's difficult when you're right in the being in the Oakland ocean and the waves are coming in. You're not like you're not strategizing at that point, you know what I mean. For sure. All right. Let's do this danger. I would say it's just always trying to survive. Yeah. Because after a while you just like you said, like yeah. Took a stab step back and everything started to get clearer. Okay. Now. I guess Lucien. Yeah. And it's easy to say that to me. Right. To say, like yeah. If all you're trying to do is just keep going then you're, you're not seeing the forest for the trees kind of thing, but. You. It's still true. It's easy to say and it doesn't mean that it's easy to do, but it's still true. You know, and you gotta if you can you got to find your way to force yourself to sort of get a little bit back and get a bitter space and get a bit of perspective to make better decisions. And you mentioned family and you mentioned the coffee community. Are there any other communities or tribes that help sustain you and inspire you and give you resilience? That was pretty much it for me. You know, if I was more if I was had a practice like yoga or something like that. I, which I should've I should've had something like. You know that I'm sure I could turn to that sort of group or something like that as well. I think that there for the average entrepreneur, there's many choices of different communities that could serve. But for me it was mostly. It was family and friends, and then other coffee people. So. And what about mentors? I mean you mentioned Scott. Scott row. Are there any other mentors that you knew either personally or not sometimes Skibo? We don't know that was a big one because he'd had cafes before he'd opened some he'd sold. Some heat had myriad. So, and he knew the coffee side really well and some of that as well. I remember talking a lot to the guys that community census because we use their TS at myriad. And they are the TV station of progressive coffee, they go and buy directly from the farmers and, you know, the, you can taste all the different origins, and the terroirs and their teas and stuff, and I remember Kevin who's the British co owner at camelia I went to him one day, I think, near the end of the two years and going, like I think I'm gonna pack it in two years of looking for the space and going, I think I'm gonna pack it in is not meant to be. I just can't find. I can't keep going out every day and looking and he was like, I really think you should keep going like you really have everything that an entrepreneur needs to have which I don't know if he was right about that. But he was encouraging as important part. So he was a great guys while, even though he wasn't technically coffee community. But other people that had done similar things or things like that, we're, we're good people to approach. And that's if there's a. A bit cautionary tale in any of this stuff. I mean there's a bunch of them, but it's you need more information than you think you do talk to more people like I wish I had seen financials for successful cafe, and no more realistic idea. I wish I had done had step back and looked at, you know, where is Saint Anne going like there's a there's a business persons association. There's there's the ticks, I could have seen that sales were already starting to, to drop on that street. And then maybe picked a location where instead they were starting to come up like Saint Henri or something like that. You need more info, ask more talk to people more, you know, as great enslave. So that's a beautiful too much. Yeah. Yeah. Right on. So let's say looking back. Do you have like a moment that feels like the greatest failure where it was, like, really end of days? But now you're kind of happy that it happened because it was very formative. There were crisis moments. You know, there were crisis moments in legacy say the one where about sort of eight nine months in where I suddenly saw a worthy money was going, and I had to take two weeks as I was, and I just had to step back and stuff. And that's when I started actually having a bunch of anxiety problems and stuff that one was was quite tough. My girlfriend breaking up with me. Having to sell my condo, while I was still working in keeping the cafe going, and then move and go through all that process all my own and then having to sell cafe, and even to a lesser extent. Having to by David when we realized that our goals weren't compatible anymore. Those are big tough stressful time periods and definitely, you know, I feel like I'm coming back. It's been a slow process but I feel like I'm coming back from all of that kind of stuff. And so I definitely can look back now and be like, oh, yeah. Glad I don't feel like that anymore. You know there's definitely progress has been made. And if you look ahead, let's say ten years from now anything is possible. What's the dream? What's the vision you have? I honestly don't know. And it may be again, become be because I didn't come into this as like a visionary. Like I really super into this, and I want to do this particular thing, I was really just kind of like I wanna find a way to make a living that I kind of like with something that I feel is interesting keeps my interest in that I feel good about. I'm not working the oil industry, or selling guns, or anything like that with coffee. If so as a result, you know, I'm, I'm just hoping to keep moving forward getting my debt paid off, if possible, grow the business, but I could one of the ways I could pay the debt off is I now have a profitable business. I could literally sell it and then I could go do something else. Go work for a big coffee company or a smaller local company, but a little bigger than big enough to be able to afford me. Let's say or I could go work in film. I don't think I would but you know there are all of those kind of possibilities. Really, my goals are much more sort of on a personal side. I wanna get back to doing exercise and healthy stuff. I wanna play mortgage. Tar yes. See more friends. I wanna stop worrying about money like that. And I just want to start making my life, a little bit more. What I wanted it to be because that was the whole point in the first place. And you know, it may pan out eventually and I feel good about it. I feel hopeful today, but it certainly. It, it was it didn't get me there in the last few years. So I just gotta keep going for that. That's wonderful insight, and I feel like you know, personal health is at least that's one of the reasons why we start this podcast. It's underrated. In terms of what it brings to life in general. I hope my hope for the future. My dream for the future is that it's something that's more and more regular to include in everyone's life. Whether you're an employee in a big company, or you're an entrepreneur like that you had that chance to be held because it can also help through those, it gives you a kind of resilience when you're meeting challenges, and I definitely think that I'm sure measure, you're, you're involved in fitness, as an entrepreneur. But so it makes sense. It's going to be important to you. But I think that out side of that sort of section of entrepreneurship, there's, there's a lot of these entrepreneurial myths and stories include things like oh, yeah. You just cut everything else out. And you just like, you know, burn it out. And, you know, you work twenty four hours a day, seventy a week and, and it's normal that you. You don't do health and exercise had it been really much more standard. Like they're almost been a tiny amount of shame around in not exercising. Then maybe I would have kept it going, I would have had more weight better healthier ways to deal with my stress and I probably would have done things better. But instead, I kind of did the whole like. Oh, yeah. Everything else goes to the side for the moment, kind of thing. So I'm with you. I think another piece of advice for anybody who's thinking about it is like try and build that stuff in and keep it going, no matter how it feels like. Oh, I don't have time today. No sometime. I'm really lucky healthwise. I feel in general nothing really bad has happened. But I also don't know what like I say what the internal cost. I don't know what's going on that side that might pop off later. So as soon as I can I started over Christmas doing a little more stretching. And starting to do some, like just push ups and stuff like that at home and try and write back in. So I'm just going to keep pushing for that. Matt the last question before we jump into the enlightening round bread right now. Yeah. Oh clear ready for some rapid fire Chechens go for it. So this is we asked this every lightning around him. What's your drink of choice when you have creative moment? Head of you. It's a good way. Probably mostly, obviously coffee. Then that's why you're laughing because that's kind of the obvious answer. But I I like drinking and tasting. So I also when I when coffee stopped being my home hobby, and it became my work, I started doing craft cocktails at home. So that kind of thing is kind of fun for me now that, that makes I get that same excitement that I used to get when I was my first year with my little Espresso machine at home. And it's like I wonder if this is going to be good. Well, so what's, what's something that few people know about you? After this podcast. Gosh, I don't know. That's a really good question. We come back to it. Well, I'll I won't say something that few people know about me, but I'll say something that I was kinda surprising for me through the coffee journey that I wasn't really expecting is. I got I got into Quebec L magazine. Okay. They wanted to do a little section on baristas. And so there's I was in Quebec version of L, there's a page photos of me that was like, was not really expecting my coffee career to get me into. Oh. And here's another one. I got interviewed by mid sue's sister, and she briefly, flirted with me at one point. All right. That's it guys open a cafe is that bay Beijing? I think yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember her from music person. She was yeah. Okay. So I'm going to name a few categories or subjects. You can name either your all time favorite or your current Goto. Okay. I'm not really good with favorites because I like so much. So I'll just I'll just throw out instead of all time favorite. It'll be like one of the things I like in the last one that got you got you really excited book. I'm reading Neil gamons just finished American gods. And I'm reading the cycle and the Nancy. I'm a big Neil Gaiman fan series on on I haven't yet but I'm looking forward to it. Now I didn't want to until I read the book, and it was the one that was always out at the library and I couldn't get it. I've got all of his other stuff. I have all of his Sandman, comics in the original single issues, stuff like that. But yeah, so there's, there's a recent favorite. What about a movie? I'm classically known for flaking, several movies blade runner is one of them and the follow up, I thought was really good. The big lebowski. Hedwig in the angry inch like again too many dimension. But there's a bunch documentary. As a tougher one, because I because I worked in film, and stuff. I mostly worked in narrative, but I've definitely seen tons of documentaries that I really, really liked. Can't come up with one off the top ahead. It's all good series. Well, we were talking just before that instead of exercising, what I have done over the last few years is stream all kinds of stuff, and so just recently, what rewatching thirty rock with my girlfriend, because she's, she's in burlesque, and she's into comedy. Tina Fey as a woman head comedy writer playing a woman head comedy writer. Yeah, it's pretty epic. That casts the castle Nacho is. Yeah. I mean, we've watched her, and I have gone through tons of them, and it's I'm fifteen years older than her. So I get to do the fun thing where I get to be like, hey, watch this. You're gonna like it to rewatch it through her eyes. It's an ego trip, unfortunately, I try to push that side of it down a little bit. But we've watched a ton of stuff together like that music. I probably Radiohead as my top favorite band probably of all time, but lots of other stuff when I was a little bit younger. I was really into Billy Bragg is a British sort of folk punk singer, and I used to go and see him when he tour, I got to meet him backstage, once it was pretty epic. Lots of other stuff. I have a really wide taste in music. I was promised myself that when people asked me, what kind of music I was into every interviewed that I would say, early eighties Electronica? Okay. Just sounds like such such. True. I, I have this real soft spot for, like van jealous blade runner soundtrack. Awesome tangerine dream as Yami show know all of that. Like early like analog since sorta stuff. Yeah. Link really trippy just pick your head tears for fears quelled. No. 'cause their pop I'm talking more. Like there's not even any singing just like instruments. We check up these these groups again. That's why that's my hipster answer. It's not like actually every day, but I was like, I'm going to give that answer. That makes me sad. Really cool. Your factor. Food. Well, I now I wanna go to let me track for tacos. Earlier, but yeah, Japanese food, Thai food, Mexican food. I think those are my top three ethnic foods, although mostly what I end up eating is the talian because passed an pizzas available, and inexpensive. And also, my girlfriend's Italian so I like that, too. Generally just one of the happy things that I also again, wasn't expecting when I got into coffee was that I became a foodie I was not before. But when you know, when you're working with this kind of stuff, and you're working with taste like Scott would not, you know, he would seek out also the best food, and I really learned to, to separate the reputation of a restaurant from the actual quality of the restaurant, I will not give names, but there are places in town here where people line up all the time and it's just not worth it. And I walked by and shake my head, and I passed the place, two blocks further that I know is doing the much better job of that thing and getting the attention. But so yeah. Just in general, what people put in. Kind of care and energy that I'm putting into burn the coffee into the food. It's awesome. It's, it's so good to see. And it's still really rare. It's kind of one of the positive outcomes of dedicating a lot of time in passionate into subject is you start being able to recognize it in other people. Yeah. You see it. When you walk across the street you have that in nod it doesn't take me, you know, like when I got into cock, cocktails stuff a little bit of didn't take me long to figure out where the better places were. And if I walked into a place to go. Oh, wait a minute. I can see I can see what they're doing here, kind of thing. So, yeah, it's sort of spreads outward that way, which is great podcasts, you know? Huge Dan savage. Fan dances, savage. Love podcast relationship podcast and one that he the only other one that I listened to regularly. Now, it's relatively recent is when the he re tweeted about how much he loved. It's call the fall of civilization podcast. I think they're on, like episode four talks about all these different civilizations through time that have ended like the Mayans they stopped Roman Britain like they abandoned, Rome. At one point, they just gave Brandon Britain. They gave up at a certain point went. So and it's interesting because, of course, you know, one of the feelings that can you can easily have reading your morning news. These days is this isn't going, well, you know, so it's kind of fun to look back and see, like what were the warning signs and why did these things happen kind of things. So that's fascinating. It is fascinating. There's something really amazing endings learn about endings and endings on that scale yet. That's like that's world changing. I think the other thing is really interesting about. Another famous favorite author is Daniel Quinn, who wrote Ishmael is the most famous one but he's written a bunch of other stuff, and he talks about how I couldn't summarize really, but he's not a big fan of our current civilization than life structure, and he talks about how like there are examples the minds is one of them of Pete, where people walked away. People just went now. We'd rather go back to weigh, the we live in the forest, you know, like they hit, you can literally make a different choice because it seems impossible like how could we there are examples of that happening in the past? So we should have a special episode and just talk about all this stuff. Deepen it. Yes. Do you have a favorite social media polo someone out there doing it really well? So the only social media do is Twitter. And I know that I you know, Facebook, I'm very happy that I never was tempted. And I'm happier and happier every day that goes by. And instagram. I never really got into that. So I do Twitter. I hear all kinds of horrible things about Twitter but I use Twitter very differently. It's most I mostly just follow and read and every once in a while I sent a comment read on Twitter. So I read a bunch of coffee people. That's how I kind of with a lot of stuff is, is coffee Twitter. And then some of it are. It's people that I know locally a little local comedians, and friends and things like that. And then some of it is, is a little more political stuff and things like that. But again, I don't get into the interacting. I'm not posting my own stuff. And then getting at mentioned back and stuff like that. It's really I used to our RSS reader, just and I would just subscribe to things and Twitter's just that for me now. So I do follow Dan savage. I follow some people he recommended like Esther Parral, who's a relationship. Psychologist, counselor author. I follow that follow civilizations podcast coffee wise. I follow like James Hoffman from square mile in England Collin Harmon the Irish breeze to champ that I was talking about. And then some people that crossover there's a guy named Tony Kenichi. You as a coffee subscription service called, let, yes, please. And he used to have a coffee company called tonics and his stuff is park coffee, and then also part, social commentary and stuff's, cool guys like that. So and I had a few categories, just because it's you and I feel this is special super caffeinated, talk. Exactly. So just get name a different few different coffee ways of serving coffee in whichever spot in Montreal are wherever that you love to get that coffee from that place. Okay. I will caution this one by a pre worn for this. When I get asked this all the time. Now is this a question for, you know, it's a good question, because it allows me the chance to reframe the question I get asked all the time in classes like what is your top place or what your top three or something like that? And I was already thinking this, but I saw somebody else, replied to the same question in, I think, London, I think it might have been James Hoffman saying it's no longer. Question, happily of where's the best place? There's so many and the variation from one day to another and, you know, which is the right place for my mood, and did it, but it doesn't really matter because that's not really how you do coffee. I mean, it's very rare that you're like, okay, I'm gonna get up and I want to go to the best place in town. You're gonna go really far the question. You're asking yourself, mostly is what's the best place around here, like in five or ten minutes kind of thing. So, so that said go ahead and ask you what's the best place around here. Yes. So we're, I think I mentioned to you. Were sort of central plateau, and on the way over I walked by noble where Victor, who's one of the people that teaches classes with me at the academy works. So that's a really nice great option. You're also close to Larry's, which is sort of a small version of the Lawrence restaurant next door. But during the day they do coffee service, you can just walk in and get a coffee. Little further north. I really like on bogere. I really liked peace Di really like cafe Odessa. Yeah. Those would be sort of my options, real close. Oh, caffeine Gamba has well not too far. If you just go a little bit. That's on park park between I think Fairmount and Saint Vietor and it's, it's the granddaddy great now. It's the oldest currently existing progressive coffee cafe in the city. So, so maybe instead of focusing on, on the coffee what's cafe in Montreal or elsewhere that when you walk in always makes you smile almost feels like home. You're like that for me at the moment. It's the one that I go to most often his scheme, which is just half a block down from my kademi, and I don't tend to get coffee there because I'm I'm usually walking past it to go to my academy where I have all my time. I that's one of the things that I kind of almost oh, it to myself, most of the day to make the coffee myself and test my coffee. And so that, that is true that also in a larger sense, I owe it to myself to drink other people's coffee more. But the real answer to what makes thing feel like most home is not going to be the coffee. Even is not going to be the decor. It's going to be the people. And so I know the staff at a ski now and I walk in smiley face. And I'm I'm usually there because they receive deliveries for us when I'm not at the academy of paying up boxes of coffee or something like that. And it's just, you know, you say hi, and you do a quick catch up, and that, that may cut to the core of what really makes it good. Cafe is a place where you can walk in and say, hi, and it's a place where everybody knows your name for cheers. And last one. What's the best thing about being a Montreal or? Oh, I mean, I chose Montreal consciously. So I grew up mostly in Edmonton, and I came here for university, I between high school and university I was working in a clothing store, and I wanna sales competition for a four day weekend here, and it was actually I was going to say without revealing your address your onto Bouillon here. We're recording. And I was on the little apartment that they gave me the key to was two billion prince Arthur off spot. My. So I came here for four days and I went. Yup. Because I was from Edmonton. And there is an opposite. Montreal in Canada. It's pretty much advocate. So, you know, I came here. I was like, I'm determined. I'm gonna go to McGill and I did. And then when I graduated from Gil, I actually thought I had to leave because I thought I didn't speak French well enough to get a job here. This was nine hundred ninety two or three or whatever I could have definitely I mean you could still get a job of Westmount or something like that. The town where everyone should be bilingual, but whether they'll make exceptions I could've stayed, but I didn't know that. So I ended up going west but I spent ten years at west about once a month. I would have a dream that I was while walking through the collateral and looking at the buildings on a bike know what the trees and I would wake up and be like really sad that it was a dream. So I finally got back and I will say this to you asked me earlier about like what gets you through the dark times? I remember very consciously many, many times where I'd be biking to work along on a tree, Laden street going by these nice old hundred fifty year old buildings and going, you know what I did make it. You know I got here. It doesn't matter how much stress I have on the back of my mind. This is still a sunny day in the plateau, and it's the same with your Bank, balances ten thousand or minus ten thousand it's still a sunny day in the plateau. Amen, amen. And Chris, where can we? Learn more about you and the academy in the courses you offer there. Thank you for the opportunity to my website, which is Montreal coffee, academy dot com. And so he has a pretty file about me, there, you probably learned way more just listening to this podcast and you'd have learned from the site. But yeah, all of our classes are listed there and there's a contact form as well. So if there's any questions or anything else, we are like I say, in addition to the public classes, we offer a bunch of consulting services and other thing there's anything at all. You know, send us a male, and if we can help we will, and I'd like to emphasize that it's for absolutely anyone who loves coffee. You don't have to be a pro you have to be in the coffee business. You said to be curious. I'm pretty happy about that. We get a bunch of feedback from people, you know, we get a wide range of people come, and we get feedback from people that are full pros. They're like. Even though you started kind of zero I still learn so much in that class. And then from non professionals that have no nothing that are like you. You walked me through it. You got me there, we've managed to find create classes that really you can be sitting complete movie next to a total professional in both people seem to really get a lot out of it. Yeah. I'm happy about that. Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you guys. It was great to see both of you again, because I used to see both of you. It's a nice little reunion. Yeah. I really appreciate it. And thanks. Thanks for joining us on. Thanks. All right. Thanks, everyone. Cheers. Hey, hey, that was Chris Capelle on the spear broS podcast. Chris, thank you so much for coming on the show. I had such a blast. I'm sure that a lot of yo there is well, thoroughly enjoyed this special episode about coffee. I learned so much every time I'm next to Chris. I just start learning and absorbing coffee wisdom. I love coffee already. So anything more as bonus and it gets me so hyped moments like this gave me so hyped about making some delicious coffees. So thank you, Chris. Thank you, Mets yards and we'll pay for coming on and being such a RAD co host all be linking. His episode on the podcast in the blog posts and show notes case, you want to check out a bit more stuff with Matt. Thank you, everyone for tuning in, if you want more spirit, broS, material, check us out on WWW dot the spirit, rose dot com. We've got a special event coming up on June first called ceremony of yoga rise. It's going to be led by Kiko Fujimoto, and Elisa more organized by our very own Scott Simon's special event, Coon Delaney, yoga based, but really, it's for anybody who wants to have fun wants to experience an event based around health around getting to know yourself, better and so on. That's June first, you can check it out at ceremony of yoga dot com. If you are still listening, we love all of our audience, but we love you, especially because you listen to the very end. So thanks for tuning in to the spirit, rose podcast. This is Pete signing off for Scott for Matt for Chris, take it easy out there. Chow chow.