Randall Hortonvs. the i


She's my twin sister that I met in Detroit Mall for any joy and they're my twin sister that I met at American summer camps to this. And you're listening versus the podcast or poets confront the ideas that moved to. And also their secret twins? What the hell was up at the nineties, people were just biding twin. Yeah I of thought that was going to happen to me one day. Be like this is the year you know I finally get my twin. Are you twin makes sense of me. You know young right here. Right and now now there's only just like my only twin is like the Franny Choi that lives on the Internet that people interact with. Like she's my long lost twin that I will forever be a contentious. Which is like not as fun like fewer secret handshakes at a lot more just like identity crises so Thanks a lot. Ninety S no. Twin parties just a lot of crying about the boxes that people put you in right? Right what is What do you think is the most significant difference between the Dennis Smith, the brand, the poet, the lifestyle guru. Oh, the brand is very much like bright Saturday morning cartoon and actuality is like dark Saturday night like like depressed adult swim cartoon you know. Very different you know like. You're a cartoon in both scenarios though I'm a cartoon above scenarios you know like, yeah, like it's very much like What's that one with the hamburger and the fries? Able, growing up. So I never knew and also the scared me I was like, Oh, these cartoons are swearing I don't WanNa Watch. Were was like you know like I'm like a very like you know like, sad, sad man who goes to work every day and then voices elmo. Yeah that's it. I think I'm like does like jolly maybe I am in some ways but I think like I have like you know been like you know maybe a little bit of the billy porter of poetry like Jolly Queer Well the billy. Temperature that'll be my next there the intro for you. Yeah. Well. It sounds racist coming from me. which is it does I like racism you know I feel about this. How about you? Though WHO's the? Who's the any that that that people think they know but they have no idea I think that it's similarly like, Oh, here's like the fun older older student. That's GONNA be the like racism. Workshop. Know. What I mean like and like it's because at some point I was literally the older student that was going to lead the fun racism workshop in your dorm. You know I was like the first way I knew how to like. Be Up in front of a room of people talking talking about something and so I think I've continued. Continued that brand. But yeah, I don't know I think that one has to kind of like seem like chipper to be like, invite me to your school and I am Chipper I am chipper but I also. Am Very. Sour about a Lotta things. Yeah, and pretty pretty. Pretty. Unhappy. Generally Oh. That's sorry. Ought to laugh at that so loud. Unhappy. Avenue. Quite unhappy. I wish we could just walk through the world and say that, yeah, it's true and also I think we both also have talked about being boxed into being like slam poets and stuff you know, yeah. Any aspects of your identity or your experience that you are comfortable like sort of peering out from in order to like would do something like write a poem by people are also willing to like limit you to that. Lind's to and our guest today Randall Horton who talks about. Being boxed into being particular kind of poet especially somebody who has had the experience of being incarcerated and what it's been like to come for the first time to writing about that experience in poetry in his new book, which just came out, which is called number two, eight, nine, Dash, one, two eight, which is referenced to the number that he was given a while in prison. So we are really excited to get to share with you all. This conversation that we had, with Randall where he talks about what it means to resist that experience of being boxed in Rondo horde and is the recipient of the books poetry award the Baggins Solace Poetry Award the Great Lakes College Association, New Writers Award for creative non fiction for Hook, a memoir published by Aubrey Books, and the National Endowment for the Arts Fellowship in literature he currently sits on the advisory board for pen. America's pen prison writing program in two. Thousand Eighteen in two, thousand, nineteen randomly was selected as poet residents for the Civil Rights Corpse in Washington DC, which is a nonprofit organization dedicated to challenging systematic injustice in the legal system. Dr. Randall Horton is currently the only tenured full professor in the United States of America at a university or college with seven felony convictions. He is a member of the experimental performance group heroes. Our Gang leaders was recently received two, thousand, Eighteen American Book Award, Oral Literature and. Their latest project, the Baraka sessions was named best vocal jazz album by NPR, in two thousand Nineteen randoms latest collection two, eight, nine, one to eight was published by the University of Kentucky Press in Fall Two thousand twenty Dr Houghton is a professor of English at the University of new haven. His next memoir deadweight is latest to be published in two thousand, twenty one. Let's get into this amazing interview with Ran Award and who will start us off with poem. Two, eight, nine, one, two, eight, subway chronicles one. Flashback to the sale. The last stop is also a beginning point on the C. At one, sixty, eight fortress heart catches my eye before we depart against the reflecting the unsigned as where tiles parochial last in a box from sale we alone the man in our of no significance until he exits the grinding wheels pull away from one fifty fifth, a ghost compartment. Now analogous to time spitting solitary I occupied the same newt hush when white boy made his living shadow in a split second on the cold concrete bringing to view faces pressed inside between glass the after sound resonate loud year after year whiteboard die from you pursue. Dear John Appearing went to. A person is reading the essential Etheridge Knight on the train today no one reads and we continue swab in noise. What a great launch into that chronicle series. Thank some. Kind of figure out a way, and I'm always interested in train travel subway in train is very interesting modes of meditation creatively. No it just something about that that always enjoyed and I used to commute from from Harlison to new haven. So one of the things would that was sort of occupy my time a little bit less what a guy used to that but but any in now, of course in New York is always something you know the train slowed means by right you know that became sort of some of the impetus because some of these most of these were sued thought out about in some kind of way on the subway Congratulations also on your The fashion that I wanna ask it's like, hi, how are you feeling about being in the world? Well, I feel good about it I think my last book was twenty thirteen in. So some time between poetry projects ahead of memoir between there and some other things obviously but I'm. Excited for this project for a couple of years now in today anticipation of coming out and then having the book the book launch last night with the Brooklyn Historical Society in to have it. Situated. The panel in a suit of action to discuss the things that I'm trying to amplify terms of the criminal justice system and the prison industrial complex and the. Language that we use around that and other things it was it was great and so I feel good about it and happy for debris in the world, and we do what we do as poets, and so that's part of the thing of I wrote the book those phones right or I like to see in the world. Now it's time to get busy. You got what's next. So well, we like to ask all of our guests to kind of situated by telling us what is moving you as a writer as a poet in the world or as a person in the world I mean. Just perhaps complicated in a way I think I'm always move by different things try to keep must have gone in different areas most recently like I said, I've been into the music thing in a section of of jazz experimental music, Garden have. You WanNa, put that which is can be complicated win self but working with especially jazz musicians in the way that the sort of always looking for another way to of tell the narrative of the sound. Has Really. I, think impacted my work in a lot of ways. So that's been moved me in obviously social climate was happening nationally. When I say move me is the people getting out there sort of actively you know. Saying how they feel? In and all of that you know that's sort of been. Something I've been secretly wanting to see for a long time so I'm you know good mocks so much of a negative is happening so That's moving me also moved by pros more. So now like I'm interested in you know fiction writers in sorted constructor novels as someone who wrote works in the area creed enough fiction attend the lean toward fiction is. more. So than deny fiction although I do fiction writers tend to move me. Pass them. Presents. What is the drowsy more toward fiction and nonfiction? The sort of the images mythical nature in in how can one recreate that but then non fiction which is sorta interesting to me. So a lot of Tony Morrison, actually because she's a huge influence on how I approach not fiction is sort of magical realist aspect in Israel or is that think blends into prove nonfiction in terms of poetry the influence of an Rogerson probably H- usual workers well. We'll put some always feeling whatever is right. I ask you more about the jazz and music projects that you've been involved with what is what kind of work is I? What does that? What does that look like? Part of a larger project called Heroes Gang leaders in Phnom take on name from a short story by Ameer Baraka, which was heroes a gang leaders on. But what D- The next group is when we attack try to do is like blend literary text with with with with music and and so we see America Book Award for Literature Was it two years ago for one about our projects, and then we've had a chance to sort of. In Europe, we did Berlin Netherlands. Poland. End. So s the part to me this in the morning anything on this. Interesting. When we get a chance to travel and we're able to sort of reach audiences that we probably never could reach. Is that Baldwin thing right I mean you kind of go over there. You realize the reach of the words right? Because I think so much wouldn't get caught in our own context as far as what worrying about. Yeah. Just American context of like being a writer is and you go over there like it is transformative. As, to the the aspect of even being an American Americanism shows immediately the Because you don't realize it. I didn't know I was. Somewhere else I just thought I was black. I is it comes out and so like all coming from this America privilege I've really don't even have. So that becomes interesting way in which the slow reflection of our own expectations but it was it was thing to me. I think it was really experienced but that's sort of the next for me has been very inspirational in terms of the creative stuff until when I come to the page because they hate to do the same thing twice the other in the in the. Azman. Musicians. In, either one of their whole. Way Base they hold you know professional career is like the experimentation. So it forces me step outside of myself sometimes in really think about what it is I'm trying to do creatively Mo work. Yeah. I was GonNa say it seems like you identify with that. This I kinda constant search for how can I sound original when I used to it. Yeah and I think part of it originates from even when I was coming into trying to be a writer and think about what that needs. Always, understood, do in some ways that people will try to put me in the context of being this guy from prison, right? Have always understood that in survive always tried to what I know of a writer I I happen to have been concentrated been in done something. You cannot escape the history of us. You know decimation quote, black five roots in. So the whole reason I got into to riding with idea to be able to explore different things and I think this is only part of that whole journey. It has to be the journey that I enjoy being on if I'M GONNA be on that jury, and so because my other life taught me that I was in that journey for other things of his self gratification in in a way that was fulfilling, it was more monetary trying to be part of the capitalist machine this little support. In terms of their, we have to slaughter by for that money in in our league in an eleven and existence and I got caught up and all that. When you say that you're a writer, I, can you say a little more about what you mean? Well, I guess I mean a writer artists creative minds being I because. When I chose to sort of explore this I decide that's that's what I was Gonna put I in my life that's what I mean by that This way doesn't really make says if you look at it because how you gonna eat are you going what are you GonNa do I when I chose this life, I've been to prison in asset values I don't know how will you live my life and I'm will be Created man of you can out. So I had to be all in I wasn't going to be in it. I mean, I guess I'm trying to cheat you late life for me in life I did a lot of things in the search they're trying to make money in China live trying to be part of whatever it is, and all of those things did make me happy. This. Made me happy. So I'm going to be there first. Whatever is so whatever happens after you know like I tell people all the time for. Action is not a prison. So I'm always I'm playing with house money. You know like I'm glad to be. I'm always thankful for whatever you know. I'm able to slow to get out into the wilderness even sort of make happen because eighteen years going to start this journey you told me that I was going to be able to write books you know have something published in. All of this kind of things I didn't know that was possible. But now all of these things that see in new shoot are possible. So the black he just wanted to that was the testimony brother. Was So tired and you know you gotta testify. But you know it's sort of something of us to talk about in It's the whole idea of it. I. Don't know Seo. imports was Let's say killing the I in prison. I understand the idea being one coming from that existence in having disordered produced the image so people can understand that. Okay. Yes. You could do this with other part of me is that part of meals like but that's not who I am really in. So for the sake of that, sometimes you know we have to make the decision decisions. I if I'M GONNA be advocate in this I got to say this because it's not a whole lot of walking around in this in this arena doing kind of thing, and so that is important. So I get that. When you say like the thing that you have to do in order to do this work D-? Mean like narrating your time in prison or talk talk you. You're going to go to juvenile detention centers detention centers, talking to you young accused and people about you know my experiences. That's what I mean by that I mean not it's you know from going to talk until like two hundred kids in Juvie. I got some fellows in they the exciting I give them my life to 'cause I thing you'd is you have to have trust. And if they don't trust you, then they're going to you up and so they can smell that and so I, have to give them a little bit of that passed. So I can always really mean understand that this is consequence based here that there you will face consequences in ways in which you you didn't think in trying to get out of that system is a nightmare. But there is hope and that's what I mean by that Phnom and I knew for me you know when I was on inside the bills who had who will come in had that experience and has used something with those tuned in more because identified with them in the identified with me in the way that that's experienced base, you can't simulate that So you embrace these you have to talk about these things. You also rider like also resistant boxed in. By, this label of prison poet or at. We fight are labels. We are boxing select in order to be ourselves, and like represent our people but also not be the admitted by that. You know. Yeah. Because that question also enters the work right? The I is sort of all kinds of bottles. Right? We got the iron brackets. We got the lower case we've got the cell phone brackets. We number the title but right like like it seems like you answered that frustration with craft. So I guess I'm wondering when did that extreme tussle with the Self or I? Guess it not even tussle it's like blurring denial acceptance. There's a lot of things going on with the Self in this collection and I guess winded that. How did it manifest in this way? How did we get here to these like six? Five six representations of who I like what are you doing with the I and the self in this book obviously is not. Exactly No No. No I mean, well, first of all, I, I've been using lower case is says my second book and then anytime I'm probably used the large case bracket is probably a collective I is so if I'm using lower case is me in this collection I don't use it that much. So is really a collective is in there's a collective us which could be conceived as the collective prison experience, the collective black experience, the tins on the context of the poem in the bracket itself. Even. Though it's in brackets. individualize this thing this always searching for yourself. So that's sort of why bring attention to that and then the periods important to meet to between the owners and the butts in next stop and start that influenced comes from the poet Stephen Jonas to Boston poet who's effort thing is probably one of the most fascinating poets I love Knack Way, he has these sort of. Issues for the air on and just all sound in its composition that to me is almost like Janse. So right there you go. Exactly a math a little bit of that in our standard of the show. So there's a lot winner. Yeah. Oh, there's this line that I wrote down the other about where you say. Does Not that poem nor either poet told Your hand and I was curious about what it means to hold the reader's hander or what it means to reject that. Will. Actually I meant you know to be a smile because I figure I just got his question last night really okay. It's not. It's not intended even demeaning thing that I think sometimes won't. If you notice the porn star south with this whole images. You know flowery thing in about Oh we're going to talk about prison in this beautiful way. You can just feel good about yourself and that's going to be this poem. No, this is not the Paul and I'm not going be the because I'm GonNa, give it to you. So that's my accent. So, like I'm you know we're not playing around with none of this stuff and you know I can do all that. But then this is what we add with this too. So it's almost the idea of I hate to use this analogy because. She would probably kill me. She was still alive with if you look at Willingham Brooks's To how she sort of like goes through this whole aesthetic journey just to show Western established, he can do it and then Fu. Time. But no but that's really sort of trying to do with that. And I think sometimes we get sort of caught up in. Be Somewhere. We're talking about hard truths and people want to you the sort of sugar coat them in a certain way in which is easier for them to sue the digest and you know just like I said one of those plumes about okay. He slit his wrist meanest little slugging risen. There are no allegories have behind. That's what I'm getting at with that in the easing is sometimes of how we have to have narrative something that he's gotta get it You gotta get. Just like nationally retired talking, we gotta get it. We don't want to like all of this language and stuff we want action one in now you know. So as trying to do both of those things that same time. Yeah. The reminds me of the other line that I wrote down I think it's the beginning of another poem where you say nothing symbolic. Okay. Dark stark cages cage which is such a like bold move for a poet. To say nothing symbolic like the. Myself for, even get started. But I think I was the only interest. Wait until the poll. Up I'm looking at original constructions of the problem. I, don't think that was the beginning line to be honest that was the best way to come into that. So as the poet thinking about crab part of it yet, you have to give yourself. Some Canalis to go down the road that I went down in the form. So it's interesting to hear you talk about that as the poke as the reader right and as a reader who has never been incarcerated and. To me what those choices did I think you do have to sometimes create like an inescapable condition for your reader right I. Think I think that's what you're talking about these topics right were like you can't allow your reader to escape into the softness of metaphor right? That's what you're saying. Right? There is no sort of like imaginative route to sort of like protect yourself. And I think that's what the poems has to do these problems especially in that First Section, those first two sections specially like. We're talking about like poems like that are like embracing the smell of Shit in the air we're talking about poems where like shit is happening in the it can't like I. Felt my own poems got like you'd always I hey. The. Mother trees right now. I. Always say going back to when I was at the Gwendolyn Brooks Conference one year nothing Ameer Baraka was there and he was like Oh no this was. The second furious flower James Madison Than Him with something he was like it said something about could be right now. About by my hand melon. With people I had done. Something like that. So I've always kept at heart in terms of when one has to see what what has to say sometimes, you know those are the things. And I think as a poet to you have to do the work yourself into that courage to go down that road a little bit because I think we sometimes you no doubt some of the things that we do what they end up being. Okay. So that's I. Think it's a good day. Oh Man but is it is it really does metaphor hallways get in the way? No I don't think it does I I and I think there's a metaphor in here obviously Michelle So I think sometimes we Get to say a plane now think about it. I'm probably even more reacting to some of the work that I do. in other areas within you know incarceration in that thing right in sometimes having to make it plain and making have to. Talk about some difficult troops or some difficult things especially with students on the classes I teach and all that counts stuff doing advocacy work people want to do advocacy in the Nice Neat Way And sometimes you you gotta get your hands dirty little bit and you have to not saying both can't talk to each other. Both Gay Dude is you know work together that's not what I'm saying I'm just saying sometimes you have to go down that road. And maybe this is the fourth book feel. Confident go down the road in their way that thinks something like I say go back to the competence of the writer in what they're doing This is your fourth book of poems is that True Your fourth? Election Fifth. Book of Y'All. Yeah. Right. Yeah as as. Writers. We always go back to the same kind of topics or stories are like things that drive our work overall. But are there were the new things that you learned about those old stories in this in the process of writing this book well to be honest with you these. New. Stories. Counter in 'cause I didn't necessarily write about incarceration him upon my first look is really about is persona. Is. Historical look and my family between Nineteen, twelve and nineteen, seventy two. In the second one is more. So my time on in the streets to DC this is never section in Lingua Franca on prison, but that was it, and then pitch dark wasn't anything about incarceration. So I addressed a lot of that in my memoir Hook in. So coming out of Hook, I felt more confident about talking about that experience reporting. So it was it was only until I. Did memoir that I really really was like I understood that I got to go back to this and really address it. I felt ready now. I I you know I felt like I could do experience justice. What was it about the pros that made that possible? I think it was part of the the father. Forgive me section which talks about. You know my sentence. I was you know I was sentenced to like a bunch of time ten Maryland and five backup in Virginia? I go to back to Montgomery County Maryland where I was originally sentenced. I had most of reconsideration hearing and My dad show Biz, my only character witness and after the DA probably by the thirty minute summation about how terrible I was a person and how I had no chance and rehabilitation or and had never made any positive contribution to society. He just like we see no reason why Mr Horn should. Be Louder prison. He should go back to Hagerstown in out a sentence. And so my father was a character witness in. So he got up and held in talk before the court many hail court for like another thirty minutes. And, he wanted him guys from Birmingham Alabama born in Nineteen thirty two been in he proud guy. He's educator Utah School Parker Has Birmingham for like. Thirty some years, and so he's a proud guy and you know he he only asking about it for nothing. You know that just how you roll. But he got up and he talked about me from the time was born man I've talked about all of the promise that I had all of the things that I could do and I had a foundation. He said that you know family behind me but this wasn't who I was and if you just give me this one chance and then he started knees start crime a right. and. So I'm crying I'm gone. Malaria cries she done nothing but she cried. Everybody in the back in the gallery crying other words even the Black Disney hail swipe right. Journey because why not face? A see grandma she led me on prisoner day to man in. So the bailiff brought me back in the back and he was like man I've been sitting in with that. Jeff. Thirty years she's never given anybody a break you lucky hail I've never seen it considered as a blessing to not combat back. In. So I went down to some dad man, and then after we have craft were Miller customer from making cry. And So. What I'm getting at that was sort of like the nexus of my journey I made the choices myself. I can't blame nobody but myself like you know we can. We can bring systemic stuff in there. But I'm saying is I needed to know that it wasn't them. In so I could write about that until I addressed it in Hook and that just opened up. Once I figured that out the way for me to go forward and talk about things a little bit more. I couldn't write about until did justice. To adequately explain like what happened that day 'cause it was magic. And you talk about the magical realism minutes of this is is as is a scene there where you I'm trying to like you know close my ears and I keep hearing the sound and his leg all goes back to the whole Sunday Blues, thing Emma in inside his banging on the piano vowed, and then all the sound of creative you know James Baldwin Sonny's Blues Right. So they SORTA gives you insight into how love to sort of bring in there but getting back to the narrative. SORTA Mason came together. So I just took the time to work on that. This book is coming out what twenty years removed from your time. In prison I mean. It seems like a good reminder to anybody who feels like Oh why can't I write about the thing that happened to me last year or like the thing that happened that's on right now you know that sometimes it takes time. No. And and I wanted to explore other things. Going journey, limitless cast my wide in that just go to obvious route NAM. That would have been obvious route for me I. Guess I've always been that way. You know my mom a preemie. So I I could never wait on anything with no for me Kinda mother says it seems like also to me maybe that the sort of getting it out in in what was like your first nonfiction piece right it out there allowed you may be with this collection to come back to it and do what you do upon which is a little bit more removed from the self may be right in the space of persona and sort of like exploring bike. Collective histories and stuff like those like right like you said, get it out. Do It justice right? You're right now I'm free to play with IT SORTA way. Yeah I came. Know thank you. Appreciate. That makes sense and that really is the intent of it. You know like when you free yourself of that and you really do get it out it gives you like this sort of freedom working those constructions and be confident about okay. I'm good way. So if you can't write about it yet y'all make memoir I. Bet You go. About it All about five years you. We have reached the point and I show it is time to play some. Game First game is called Bass Punch or way. What's the other name sort of game for any or bag speed bag or some other shit? We need to have a few less names so this game, but we're going to do. Is We are going to give you ten categories of which you can decide to give us the best or the worst of these categories and you are going to answer for us. So it'd be like stuff like you know like it won't be this past best Disney character you know or. Hottest Stanza. Ever. That's a hard one. What's the Best Stanza in poetry? Really really hard question for later are you ready to play this game star? Well No, but I'm ready. We're GONNA figure out. Do you want to say the best of things or the worst of things I don't know my wife says most black clouds. Let's go worse. Okay. I. have. Let's. Let's start off with this outside us off for any first off out of the done a worse yet. So I'm so excited I worst word to use in a poem. worst sandwich. Tomato. I'm sorry I forgot that. I'M GONNA, sound manning's tomato soup. And I hate him I hate I do to. Alert Grandma why this is the one that summer ever Over God I love his. Worst. Animal. Worst. Thing about Derek hough. His difference. Farrah's. Worst Character Toni Morrison novel. Oh. Maybe, a moral question. WHO The worst care. And the Tony Morrison Noble. Man. Slave owner for the guys who own brothers in Ohio and beloved. was his name. I know what you're talking about I can't think of his name right now but he was particularly evil out of all the white demand and. I can't remember his name. So I give you the book in its in the location. So you're. Worth Pasta Sharp. Kinney. Oh. I feel tender about that. This is favorite so I. Just need. We never got I never understood the shape of that 'cause I I didn't grow up with that so. Love it. Worse place to read a book. Place read a book is times where that's is the worst place to be. Worst worst jazz musician worked better when I was best but worst jazz musician. Debussy Handy. Okay. I don't know who that is but. The Lao shots. So He The movement a little bit. So I'm GonNA, throw him. I'M GONNA put him on the bus. Although he he was you know he has some. Last few questions come in worst president. Donald Trump. Yeah, okay, and then the last one will be worst thing you ever saw on the subway. Okay. Nikki. Man. A bottle. Of Water. Giving them. A bad Oh. I know. I. Like signed me up there I mean, the the the silver lining us that he did have a concept of how to try to get clean. So I mean I have to leave him props. Andre we go, but it still was not a good vision. Chicer-. That sounds like a VIP subway experienced. Pay Extra. Only. Rains and no one was reading a book that day. Thank you for playing. Games. Thank you. That was great. That was great. I was learned Timothy. Group so Perfect. Should we play for one more. Okay. Coup mortgage warmer go. Okay. So now we're going to play a game called this versus that where we put two things in competition with each other. And make them get into physical brawl and then you tell us which one will win in a fight. So for this edition of this versus that we have poetry verses Jazz if poetry and Jazz. We're GONNA fight who would win. A. Thank you to be a toe to toe knockdown thrilling. Miller would have to go fifteen rounds because in one corner you're GonNa have jazz and you're gonna be influenced by some degrees like Davis art blatantly in the jazz messages and so they wanna be trying to. Vary this sound and sort of beat you up with different narrative. Then you're going to have the arsenal to pull going to be off with narrative experimental and understand live breaking hit you in the head with stands that sorta ring with a little region derived in the end I, got to give it to people in a corner poetry for their dedication and resistance the beach you down with the message and the jazz people are GonNa have to take the whooping if only I and this do this thing together. Wow. I promise you that straight up I wouldn't drink in anything. Oh Man. I saw was like an audio book. So, when you say the two million, we say our the new house wanted the juxtaposed. Phone that we go. Crazy well. Mad though. was. Amazing. Now. Right for team jazz I gotTa say has as as Abu Disagree with this fight I think jazz got cheated at the cost. Played it till the skills, their way and if I was. Yeah. So you know I'm I'm a friendly poet sometimes. Actually always your hand if I have to. Thank you so much aspect you all this you appreciate it so much. Frantic. Stanton. Thank you. Thank you in. Great. Would you do the honor of closing us out with one more poem? A. Two Eight, nine, one to eight poet in New York as in. To a nine, one, two, eight, two protagonists. Exiting darkness begins the process by which, of course, I dissolve them opaque and a train was sling by the last one to starboard against played glass bottle the cheek then oblique as in press ever-so-slightly dumbed the night vibrant up townfolk trapped in a maze of boundaries in books. The soul of black folk a so think our protagonists no matter total would recuse himself from living it begins dream is manifest destiny. There is departure arrival trapped in a possible construct. So the construct walks up right in search of freedom everywhere a historical fallacy willing the body say skin construction is black deepening the scenes projection this call to eight nine, one to eight human. I'm so grateful for that I'm on that and also I would say for the does Sam see and Randa without a hat usually a great hat on. Leslie he delivered. hatless vulnerable it amazing I. Love. The put on though was like You know I think the dissonance in the conversation right between like trying to resist this label of like being the prison poet right but also like this is first time writing about that in poetry right and what also an amazing you mentioned an interview Friday. But what an amazing grace that like it can take forever and we do. It when it's the right time to get to something that maybe feels like we're supposed to write about you know it arrives sue US whenever it's supposed to yeah I mean we've talked before on the show about the kind of impetus put on poets to respond to things that are happening like right away like especially kind of like big shared national crises, global crises. And how sometimes that's possible and it's just like it takes so much longer than you know the span of a new cycle to really be able to understand you know let alone like years of healing from things whether personal or bigger than that. There's something does this conversation brings to mind for you like things that you will be able to write about like in a few years but not right now or like something that took a really long time to get to. I mean I guess in the immediate feel like what's happened in Minneapolis the year it was easier to write about it in pros and I don't think poems about it will really happen for awhile So interesting I've rattled that way. I mean that's why I propose that to him was because I think for me there's so many things to like balance in a poem that I want to pay attention to that link in order to just kind caracal what's happening and how like that sort of getting it right that he was talking about I think for me sometimes what's difficult that happens in pros and I Think to like my like lifelong thing. I. Think to talk about like my parents and like a meaningful and truthful and like flush that way I think is going GonNa take time and I think maybe to might might require some like pros which I think is maybe familiar because reminded of like the diary of the compassion all that before I get to the poems about it the beautiful thing about being a writers at the more I live the more I realized that like their stuff in my past waiting for me now that that wasn't waiting for me before that I've only now arrived at those tools you know. Well, how about for you? What are you? What do you see yourself getting maybe day you know? The first answer that came to mind was was this break up like heartbreak following the end of a relationship that was like a six year relationship There's like the right between like writing lots of poems when something happens and unlike writing poems that. Will. Ever be shared with anybody. You know the there's. Also, like when you were talking, it reminded me of them. The ways that my siblings don't really show very much my poems like I. Love My siblings very very dearly, and I think that I have exactly ever known up to this point at least like how to write about them and our relationships while still being able to kind of protect them. You know I feel like a little bit too protective of my siblings to write about them in poems, and so actually I think for me I don't know if I will be able to ever do it in pros actually because I think that feels like even more exposing because it's like so purse like a personal. Relationship in like somebody else's life at stake whereas yet. But maybe maybe it's true that once that happens then I'll be able to get to the deeper at the bone of the thing thing when it comes to talking about our relationship. But yeah, I don't know for now just like I feel too protective of them to write about them. Yeah. I think I in in a work that can sometimes as she to be so vulnerable in a way that sometimes can like snowball intellect nothing being sacred or off Gassing Syndrome right? that. Sort of ability and I think it took me a while to learn that that like it was okay for stuff to be off-limits. Yeah. Right. Right because then you get into the thing of like we this is like a thing that is deeply moving me like this is like the core of my being that like up like. So why am I am I like not reaching deep enough and like sometimes you just can't. It's okay to not go to like to the thing that is like most driving you right now you know. Life Long. You know there will be years or if as long. Let's get back to our ears folks and get out of here. Flat. Hey let's get back to twenty twenty. The cheerios way to end exit. Let's do it. Why not only good thing about twenty twenty is like you know there's less of it ahead of us than there is bond everyday less there's less twenty twenty. For and who this week Okay Yeah I, WanNa thank like astrologists in general you know what I mean. But like specifically is her name Susan Something Susan Mill Miller okay. There's a Susan there's a Susan out there. who does like really intense ones that are like don't sign a contract on the twelfth like do go on a date on the thirteenth like on the fourteenth you might have like short distance travel or whatever, and I just I just a shout out to the rigor in the thoroughness. That's why I, I, think. I am going to thank my mom four pressuring me she use my Hulu walkout and so she's been nagging me for a while to get stars because she wants to watch power. But because in because I finally gave in, I got to watch valley. That was a pretty good show. Thanks Mom got. Up. Out. So I could watch a really good show go watch valley. It's an amazing show. Everybody steals someone who'll watch just all the things that you have. Thank your mom for on this show. This is like a really particularly good one very specific. I love the specificity is very, very specific and I was so annoyed I was like this one mckee's on asking me like I don't WanNa pay eight extra dollars so she could watch power but then I was like, Ooh what's the show about strippers? God close the door or whatever Okay. We also. Shelby Noriega. From the Poetry Foundation. Thank you to our producer Daniel Kiplinger. To Pulse loudness and thank you to you offer continuing to listen to our little little guests. Wherever you're listening to our little low podcast. Make sure you like. Rate Subscribe, share. Tell Your Mama to. Your friend to the boss and make sure you follow us on twitter at the s the podcasts if you on the twitter's if you're on Instagram, don't follow standards there's nothing else you have no idea what we look like and with that y'all we are going to get on Outta. y'All stay stay stay blast make good risks. Make good donations have write good poems and don't be afraid to unlock certain things on your Hulu counts you never know where it may lead. By

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