The Power and Promise of AI
Welcome to CCC talks empowering it and business professionals in their digital transformation journey. Find all the latest tips tricks and strategies at our blog and resource center at cloud credential dot Org and our host. Ccc Managing Director Marco Laughlin. Hello everybody and welcome to another edition of CCC talks with Markle up on the cloud credential council. Now today we're joined by Daniel for Gela is the founder and head of research at emerged. I'm Don thank you very much for joining us on. Today's podcast. Glad to be here market so much on your company. Emerge is focused on research in the field of artificial intelligence So maybe to tell us a little bit about what you do on what emerges all about Suri. Yeah I'll give you the very fast version here so our work focuses on really the Aurelie of AI in major sectors so we track the startup ecosystem. We try to know use cases and we categorize what is enabling within those industries. And sort of where? We're seeing a return on investment so Visual Map irs are alive for leaders of companies that a Serb don't want to allocate their funds without knowing the landscape. I I got a good proposition. Especially the visualization of an Aurelie. Also the new thing but I think companies should do more of that abbey rather than just pure numbers of it may be looking at it from. I'm sure looking at it from different aspects for sure. Yeah I mean For some people ease of deployment for example is a paramount import. Because they don't have that much internal data science talent for example for other people. They really have an emphasis on building a particular capability. Like let's say computer vision. They WANNA be able to identify things with images. It's an e commerce business or retail business and they might particularly want to screen for that so criteria will vary but I think companies do it. Well you assess where they WANNA put funds companies. That don't just you know. Waste a little money on a pilot here on a pilot there and then they'll they'll learn the hard way that they should have some some strategy so that's kind of where we had good. I've learned to light as a hard way to do things at an easy way to do things find the people that can help you do the easy way and the answer. But I think what you're saying is your focus on the value from AOL. Ai Tune Organization and trying to understand that before doing ai for the sake of doing it. Is that what you're about? Yeah so some companies have been honest with us About checking the box in other words. Oh we did a pilot project because we you know. Our competitors did press releases about pilot projects and we wanted to do one as well. I'm there's obviously a lot of danger there. Germs of of wasting money so on most leaders we work with a lot of heads innovation heads of strategy. They don't quite know what they don't know they don't know the totality of what they could invest in and sort of. Where is the low hanging fruit and a lot of time for Big Orix? They want wins. They want relatively quick wins on with. It's not always easy. But they have to see the landscape to do it so yeah better than better than hurling money into random directions or like you said. I'm doing it for the sake of doing a savior's now we're going to start with him. Simple question very simple in terms. I'm GONNA ask you. What is artificial intelligence will? What is a yeah so you had said before we started recording here? Mark that You'll get ten different answers when you ask ten times and I speak fulltime with a researchers and heads of AI at big companies. I probably get different answers from them as well so to some degree even the folks that know. The space are bickering. Lot about Specifically where AI fits in compared to machine learning etc. Broadly speaking a I is a computer doing something that otherwise people would do. This is the big umbrella artificial intelligence that goes all the way to really complicated natural language generation stuff for You know that kind of models a human conversation which were kind of borderline cutting edge big companies like Google all the way down to relatively boring stuff like detecting fraud for a credit card company or a potential even more limited applications. They're so big umbrella. It's a big umbrella they can. I think automating still for the computer that humans use to do. We'll talk a little bit more. Besse AMBASSAD industries a fan. You know as you said even if it's just credit card fraud or insurance fraud and I could have taken a lot of people hours to try and figure out. Where may I system might do that? Quicker faster better can ask 'em again in broad terms. Why should we be excited about? Ai Buffoon from two views one from the organization perspective on one from a consumer perspective. I'd be excited. I think that So from an organization perspective I think Excitement can come from. You know the potential to win in the market. I think there's excitement. There's fear there's a lot of motives for organizations it's just about being able to stay relevant so for particular for very large companies on have already budgets Who are kind of enterprise level The winners and losers of the next ten years and a lot of space is heavy industry financial services etc have to involve some capabilities unlocked in some ability to have moved fluently with these new capabilities. They emerged so being excited about that. Means being cited about staying ahead of the market as a consumer and ultimately again. We're more on the business side for our work but as a consumer. I think we almost might see it as the next level of the next layer of convenience like the Internet was know I I used to. I don't have to go to blockbuster. Renna video now have net flex is kind of an Internet serve convenience level and kind of layer on top of any given service whether it be food or entertainment or connecting with friends. Or what have you? I think I will be potentially another layer of that certainly in consumer tech. That's moving quickly you know. Syria was out well before those kinds of applications were available to be and I think that consumers actually going to be the fast moving area. But it's mostly it's convenience on for for your average kind of person on the street. Absolutely on he said interesting thing though blockbuster being the the US DVD video rental store which along exists. So I think I think we're saying the likes of these digital technologies a helping organizations change our business model the way they do business and how they do business because it allows people to consume things differently as well so I think it's a great opportunity for organizations to do something new but there's also the danger that is they don't do something new that some competitors might do that so it's not a challenge facing. Yeah it is. I think it's most relevant for the larger organization so in a space like banking where we do a lot of work insurance wealth needed. It's kind of like global top one hundred companies so if you are a mid size random bank in the Mid West. You sort of. Don't have to direly stay ahead of ai because you don't have the budgets you don't have the RND and the technology so nascent it's GonNa be tough to get it off the ground with a lot of that that are indeed but for the folks who are in the top one hundred when JP Morgan and Wells Fargo and the other players Start to get that edge in customer experience. Start to get that Agean in You know how easily they can onboard people or how well they can calibrate their loans and lending for example you're competing with the biggest right now essentially across sectors on matters survivability wise people realize that added and that's a lot of impetus to get started is actually less the excitement more the nervousness nervous. I think that goes back to your opening. You know what you're saying about understanding the Ohio. I'm the value from a now. Everybody is going to get value today as you said. Those mid Westerner Midstate by they could put a lot of money into see no return for years because they're not under threat from these other industries in other areas. Yeah I mean it's also just. That is very hard so to do I quote unquote This is very choppy language to say do but to essentially enable a in the enterprise that is to say we're going to train our own algorithms to achieve a unique goal on if we want to do that we need data scientists. We need a lot of data. That's organized we need the ability to fail because a lot of the time even with great data and smart people there may just be an application. That doesn't work as it turns out. This data doesn't correlate to fraud. Sorry that was nine months in a lot of money like okay you know not the end of the world but that's the nature of Ai. So the stomach for that. Kind of risk of non are alive on the required budgets. Data in expertise just aren't at these companies so it's it's not just that they don't compete directly with J. P. Morgan. That's part of it. But it's also like they couldn't enable the technology will have to evolve in move down market to become more push button. At which point it will really be doing. Ai They'll essentially be leveraging data mostly trained on other people's information about IB software to point it out right. We'll move into the next era. We're not there on right now. So the highest that big players. Yes I ended up going to be a very interesting space when we're almost consuming else's AI. Or the learning that they've created a now clear is in if you're the leader in the industry let's say banking you used a You've got to return but you now have this super knowledge or source that you can then salad. Maybe spin off as a service to thanking industry. That to me is very interesting. Yeah it's it's interesting to see where and if that will happen so let me paint a picture for you of kind of how it could happen but places where I actually don't think it'll happen so you bring up a great point and I think not enough people frankly are asking about how. Ai will evolve. We have to think about that a lot. Because companies we work with are planning you know five ten years out they at least want some vision there so to your point you say. What is it like to use other people's data while you use net flicks right now? I presume or use facebook and I don't have a Netflix account. But people I know have Netflix. And that's essentially being trained off of Amazon as well Spotify were listed music These are systems that are trained on people like me. So if if I use spotify and I listened to a lot of classical but I also have like this random nineties dance like songs. I like for some weird reason because I am now. I was twelve once and I listen to the radio back. Then they'll they'll have folks who like me have maybe had similar tastes in. They'll be able to suggest songs that I would also like so. That's training someone else's data we. You're talking about I think would be a bank who really masters anti-money-laundering and then says I wonder if other banks pay US A TON OF MONEY TO MAKE SURE. Nobody uses their bank as a terrorist route for money on. Maybe we can sell this so that may happen on. We are right now for the most part seeing vendors serve that role so vendors working with bank XYZ whatever and then they're taking the data from all of them and their goal is to now have a from scratch kind of pull the cord and we can automatically rip that up to speed. We're seeing more. The vendor ecosystem take that role but some big companies may do it themselves to I think a lot of companies are worried about giving up their crown. Jewels like that but But the vendors are trying to work at it they're trying to basically what you're seeing today over. The course of the next five years will obvious but what people don't realize today as vendors are trying to drink as much data from the top one hundred is they can so they can service the entire mid market or less pushback not entirely but more or less really own that market so that's happening across sectors for sure. I think that'd be keys. You said more or less push-button it's like worse offer as the service got today. Yes is in complex to consume now behind the scenes to make it work. It's a little easier with API's on the software as a service players integrating a bit more but they still want to keep level separation. But that'll be. That'll be interesting. It sounds to me like there's a bit of a gold rush happening at the moment. Would that be good phrase? Very I mean there that's That is not hyperbolic to say you would be on point to say that there's a bit of in a gold rush. Are we gonNA see cool off? I think that that's really the big question. Because a gold rush kind of indicates a height bubble that is bound to burst on. I think it's being debated as to where that is in. Ai I I do think that the expectations were bloviating in a great number of sectors. But I also think the traction is reasonably strong enough of those where we're not going to see a real ai. Winter again in the same Gargantuan sense that maybe happened in like the eighties or so But yeah you're safe to say venture capitalist the startups everybody's in Ai Company. Now I mean there's a certain amount of the hype that is Beyond reason I say that. I'm sure there's a lot of challenges to organizations in adopting a I. Would you have a few things to do? Consider a few don't for organizations who are thinking about this. Yeah we put together a piece recently called something like a composite of fifty different interviews call the the prerequisites to ai adoption what we refer to as critical capabilities on hand. There's a number of factors here but if we think about big ones one of them is just skills so That's not only data science skill so having data scientists that's also understanding how data scientists and subject matter experts need to work together to enable a out because it's turns out you could buy fifteen Carnegie Mellon Ai PhD's on which is very hard to do by the way. But you know you could buy fifteen of them. Set up their own little office with a cereal bar in water. Slide and all that stuff and that doesn't get anything done. You actually need the subject matter experts in you need. It on both sides to be connective tissue in to work with those folks in and understand the same lingo understand problem sets in a similar way have access to the data they need. So I'm how teams work together and data science skills. That's the skill side. Another aspect of this is culture So as I've mentioned before doing in the enterprise today again five years from now. We'll see this ease off but right now it is doing science. It s s the hypothesis spending time collecting the raw data developing what we think the right features of that data should be training algorithm over the course of many many months cleaning gate over many many months before that and then we don't know if it's going to work and if it does it'll never be one hundred percent ray might be ninety something percent and he's going to be enough to save money so that kind of the kind of our D stomach. You need to have the kind of risk stomach you need to have to deal with? That is hard for most companies. And there's some bigger firms again like I said top one hundred players where They do have to now develop that kind of survival wise. They realized that that innovation focused kind of isn't isn't optional anymore. And so that's another barrier this. There's others too but those are two really big important. Once I think that's the key phrase you said. Innovation is not optional anymore. We HAVE TO INNOVATE. I in in my experience. I think organizations. We've forgotten what is innovate. Truly you know and I think These new technologies won't they can't achieve allows to refocus on my ideas on the technology itself but on wall to potential of technology might be but as you said I think You know some of the risks. Are you have to take the risk? You have to be preferred prepared to not get something right you have to everybody's talking about I just fail fast but you do have to accept a week a lot of money into this and not get the result that we want. But as I say. Edison didn't figure out the light bulb in his first. Go or first hundred goals or I you know but he had to have been funded some hell to keep going or would have stopped so we have to think about that intelligently and failing the right times I learned from it I always say it's not failure if you from it but it's mistake if we don't time yeah can't Can't disagree with you there and I think that The people you're seeing doing the Edison thing as you well articulated. Great analogy are really like the top five top ten businesses in these major sectors often. It's it's written in all truth. I mean even financial services it could be argued in some sectors. Like the top three. That really liked the less. Throw money at it right. Like the the like they're like Gung Ho on a lot of the number forty five on the global top one hundred banks for example they often really WanNa know the existing precedents of what has had are y for the bigger players right for the oaths of because they can stomach a bit of this but they actually don't have the unlimited pocket so to your point we wanna fail and fail fast but we also want to be able to pick those spaces where we have a chance to win on and businesses below the top five. Let's say sort of do do require on information about that because it's tough to lose too many times when you're you're not the the biggest town. I love that we've got the FAM- fail fast but we've also got to pick the place to win. Yeah you want at your odds right. Stockyards in terms of how easy to beat the deploy into basically proved management? Like hey see. I told you this wouldn't be a waste of time because no no headed innovation. Strategy wants to say well. I told you we could fail and we did. But I'd like more money right. It's much easier when you can say this little win. I got for you now. Imagine if you gave me five times as much right. That's what our clients folks are. Be excited to hear from now. Then you use a phrase. I've heard a few times am creative. Disruption now tell us what does creative disruption main in regards to this world of a. Um have then how is a is driving creative disruption? Yeah so I think this is really in some ways. This is not all that unlike any other business creative disruption. I think we could say automobiles the Internet. You know we talk about blockbuster minute ago. We can talk about Kodak in these famous examples of people who were destroyed on the process of the next wave coming out I think we'll see the same in so the problem with Ai. It's the opportunity as well is that we don't know exactly what these new norms will be will be the new norms of how you interact with a call center. We'll be the new norms for how you get financial updates on your investment accounts or your savings accounts are checking. Or what have you will be the new norms for how we shop. Some of these things are being felt out the big tech players but some of them are going to settle somewhere and as it turns out there may be firms that just cannot get the infrastructure right to handle on conversational interfaces for example or to handle voice very well and it may have a tangible crushing impact on their ability to service customers retain customers etc. And so sort of like again Internet blockbuster there will be some of these facets of ai that will be so critical industries at some folks a win and some just Just won't get gobbled up. It'll be so similar analogy. I wonder these days. Are these chapel. That we see replacing calls Going to disrupt in any way or they just more of an annoyance to some people because they seem to do no lower than enlisted people going to in the past. They don't tell right now Chat bots are so we. We have a very robust landscape of banking as are numerous sector. And I'll just speak from the perspective of bank in banking are there are on it chat bots conversational interfaces in terms of press releases from the top banks is lettuce the re times bigger than any other category of Ai Capability in terms of what banks say they are doing but when it looked when it comes to investment there are rules of business functions like compliance like fraud like cybersecurity. They're getting astronomically more money. And it's because there's actual results there the conversational interface stuff looks great to your customers to seem like your hip. It looks great to your investors to see like your hip but at the end of the day on really. It really isn't garnering that much of a of an Roi in Modi's actors. I'm not I'm not a conversational interface pessimist but I. I am a realist in that. It's a bounded technology and if it isn't treated as technology that can handle some low hanging fruit and otherwise should be routing people to a human resource instead of trying to talk win is running out of what the hell say if we're promising that that continuance that real conversation. I think we're over promising in ninety nine percent of instances today so Benjamin is where these data basically screams height. You just look at where the money's going you look at what people are talking about an. It's so obvious where the hype bubble is again. I'm not a total pessimistic. Good vendors there but off yeah chat bots today. I think the way to go with them. And against some of the experience I've seen with chapel not only have place but their their position than scituate to eliminate the person at the back rather than as you said to still route to a purse. Not The back when the opportunity comes across so we need to speak to somebody. Move away from the There is somebody there human actually go talk with so I think what we're danger of is using some of this technology to replace the human at the end of it rather than to facilitate some of the interaction still have people at the M. though the the chain so to speak leave me into this. I I talk a lot about this subject on the humanity of it. The human the person aspect of it. I guess so sometimes I I asked. Are we losing the personal connection with people and customers by automating more the question? I have down. Maybe you could help. Is You know how does this? A affect our personal connection with customers as a business as business start was yes. I think this this could go both ways on on the one hand you know not not because I'm a bad guy but because when it gets there on people will lay off call center people because the world because real actual the world because the state of nature is so angry and mean. And if you don't and your competitors do and you spend more money than they do you will lose and so at some point there will be sloughing when it makes business sense. New companies grow when you companies grow. They will grow without the the employee bulk. Now I'm not a fan of that and I think you know It's necessary. I'm not saying we should resist all of it. There might be regulatory needs for these kinds of things but I don't think that If you are the CFO If the choice is keep losing money until you lay everybody off and we all find a new job or we gotTA slimness department down because by Golly all of our competitors are reducing their costs. Those are those are real adult conversations. And I think we're not really seeing those crash into financial services retail today for is specifically. But I think we will when it goes to customers. I think that this could potentially go both ways. It seems obvious that if a I- stretches US away from our customers it feels very hard to win doing that. It feels very very hard to win. So there's there's some examples like an apple for example where I'm getting in touch with customer services like impossible but the product is really good and like so people put up with it but I think generally most part A. I will be about learning from all of our conversational. Interface interactions all of our phone calls and being able to better understand Meta trends. It'll be about looking at our interactions on our website and better being able to service our customers. It's almost impossible to see a writ. Large wave of customer neglect customer distance. Plus business winning at the same time that they seem essentially diametrically opposed so. Hey I for companies who win will almost always in some way. Connect them to the preferences. The needs of the people who pay them the dollars. So I'm not too worried about US being Disjointed inherently by in that way it should connect us to our needs and wants and desires. Whatever that is. That's intelligent way. I think of aggregating a maiden things like that. Well we'll see I mean. We had manufacturing industrial age as well as the revolution on the Industrial Age Are we seeing people replaced by machines? I think about the next stage now where we're seeing some of the service economy being replaced by software driven by big data facilitated by cloud. But like that when there was this displacement from the mechanically machine air new jobs came up new things came to. Hopefully we hopefully we. We continue on that tangent. Now down in one of your headaches talks. You've done a number of those into really good. I think our listeners should go have a look at some of those as well. You also talk about the emergence the automation economy. Now we did a segue into it there but what are talking about you talk about the automation economy. Yeah the automation. Connie I mean so I. I don't know so much if if it's economy. I think I know the text you're talking about is the one at University of Rhode Island which I do on so I don't know if I use that phrase particularly but I think I did talk about the rise of automation certain job categories. Do you WanNa kiss explorer that Lord. Yeah because to go into it. You're talking about a Driving let's say white collar automation so to kind of senator. I know you'll should. White collar workers be be worried or do they fear that this automation economy will take their jobs as well. Yes so the It's a good question. I think that the broad answer so the tedtalk actually does a reasonably good job of tackling. Nece on it's just Dan for Gela Connects University of Rhode Island or whatever but Pretty easy find on Google Talking about three main facets of what are the job security pillars that we will likely be able to stand on us and so on one of those is is what I refer to as context and so we talk about what should white collar folks be worried. Serve depends on their role. I think right now because we're not seeing the bowling ball. Destroyed pins across finance and retail and heavy industry. Where we're not there yet. So so real visceral. Will my children eat a meal? Worry is probably unwarranted almost ubiquitously in most white collar jobs however if we want to look to the future and secure as much certainty as we can about own Value in in an increasingly automated age. One one factor here is is context so I use a bit of an analogy here until about inputs. So that's whatever lands on my guest or my computer screen joke about my my work on those inputs. What do I do with this thing in? Front of me is a spreadsheet that manipulate in the same way as a form that. I check in the same way is it. A whatever is it repetitive. In wrote and the outputs do. I send it to the same inbox forward to the same person. Put IT in the same file structure. Whatever the case may be do the in the works and the outs more or less. Look the same without me. Having to know anything else in the business in other words I don't have to look over into marketing onto look over into procurement. I'm just in my world of inputs work in outputs. Those are the roles with no context right. They just. It's just work on those roles at the highest risk of automation across the board regardless of industry regardless of of. Gio allegiant and so folks really feel like they're in those kind of physicians would be in the spookiest spot for sure. Then other things. I guess for people to think about about their careers. I guess we're no longer in the era of Goat's college get your degree on the whatever that is go to the bank in this example and have a career for forty years get the gold walked off nothing fancy pants and I think those days of leftists behind I'm then we've technology changing so much that win away icy it in win people's careers going house to almost reskill to three or four times along the way to keep up to keep relevant about the rate of change. Were talking about this You know automation economy is going to force us to do that. Or if we don't do it we may get left behind. I mean nobody could deny that. I think even before we talk about you know. My Grandmother had one career upgrade that she has to do which was learn to type. You have to look at a typewriter typewriter. And of course for my parents were a couple more right. My Dad never really got with the Internet stuff. He ran a little carpet store and God bless a meat. He had to learn some new technologies and new ways of doing things. I think that the folks who now will in that store are having to probably even have an email list of customers who send messages and things like that and at some point. Maybe that'll turn to marketing automation on. So yeah I think that the technology tools. The ways of doing things are Involving faster than ever there is reason to be nervous that not everybody will be able to or want to endure that kind of quick hustle light and this will create that stratification of society writ large folks who who either want to or are adept in on consistently evolving driving forward into new problems to be solved and learning new ways of doing things and folks who For ability or for preferences just absolutely do not WanNa live in that world where it's a new dam tool it's a new dam workflow every six months I think that society. Maybe we'll figure out a way that that'll be tackled. But I think it's it's worthy of consideration in terms of how that's actually going to happen but we found in our Recent said global digital skill survey was one of the critical findings looked up and organizations now requiring people to have the ability to learn on rescale quickly and apply those skills as opposed to coming into a new organization with degrees diplomas. I'm certain types of learning. It will last for the length of time that they're indoor organization so the expectation is always there but we also found that not everybody is capable of reskilling but we do believe that they should be afforded job opportunity one way or another two jobs relation or twitter or social channels. I think that that's that's a big thing and the other any other. I guess ethical implications of say using a uniform organization or is there are ethical points from an society in general. I mean there's there's all sorts of considerations ethically in terms of Longbow societal impacts. There's things like you just brought up. Can everybody keep up and learn everybody able to rescale? I think it's it's somewhat obvious. It not necessarily. Everybody wants to do that as the aptitude for that. It's not the thing I'm it's very demanding. I think for some folks on and I think that how that is tackled whether it be universal basic income whether it be in this broader governmental sort of factors that I think we could say have ethical import in some in some fashion umph within businesses on. I think that a lot of the time a is being applied to kind of snipe out things that could be those kinds of risks so an example here is regulation or compliance in the financial services. Space there are things that I can say on the phone when I'm selling you an investment that by Golly are not okay so that they're just not an there's there's ways that may be money to be transferred that by. Golly if the regulatory folks knew that money came from this party and ended up at the end of the day going through the Shell Company. Into this party we would be slapped hard because you know funding terrorism or crime in some ways not right but also just because there's punishments there so we actually see. Ai Aiming to kind of fire away particularly in finance also in life sciences at these things that are on compliance unethical risk factors so I might open up some but it might also help. Close the door on some of these things like fraud. like Insider trading sort of compliance risk for example. So I think it'll go both ways. So yeah I think there's not the boat. Waist there should be careful on both dont critical question. The final word can make the world a better place in come. It's far too much. It's it's the title of one of my Ted talks. Which if you're you're not ready to consider very scary far off post human intelligence stuff. You probably should avoid watching that talk altogether if you wanNA give yourself nightmares. Maybe you can But Yeah I think you know in the long term like forty years out. I think we're GONNA look really wild shifts sort of human condition and hopefully that that is for the good. I think it seems safe to say that in the near term on the aggregate Ai. Kind of like the Internet will be a net boon for wealth. Broadly reminding to regulate it differently. We might need to change the technologies. We allow our teenagers to us. If it's making the whatever the case may be right but I'm on the aggregate I think hopefully net boon To sort of productivity globally on at least in the near term and so my hope is that at least from the business perspective. The answer to your question is yes. I think long term. We've got bigger considerations but relatively near term an optimist. Good good the optimistic with you there as well. I think there's always good. At least we gotta get regulation in order to get to that point. We have to have things out there then catch up. We have to see what's happening. What the potential is look at the Internet? You know think regulations coming in year on year four that it needs more book. You couldn't regulate it for that years ago. Because you wouldn't have known the onto the scope you will know people would've used for so unfortunately it loves KOCH OPENING GIFTS OUT WINDOW. I think of opportunity for US TO BE MYSTIC ONTO. Try and fail and as you said fail faster. Put Your money where you want to stack your chips. Don't go all in and try and try again. Daniel Fidel thank you very much for joining us on. Today's CCC talks. I think that's been really enlightening and they're thank you for your insight. Thank you very much. Thank you for joining this episode of CCC talks. We hope you enjoyed this episode and walk away with a ton of actionable insights if this is your first time joining us. 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