20VC: Benchmark's Bill Gurley on 5 Traits Benchmark Look For When Adding To The Partnership, Why The Abundance of Capital Is Today's Biggest Challenge in VC & The Right Way To Think About Market Size When Assessing Opportunities


You are listening to the twenty minute BBC with me. How are you stabbings, and you can see all things behind the scenes from us on Instagram on H stabbings nineteen Ninety-six with TB's now to the episode's day? And when I was eighteen year old before my first avenue twenty minute episode I wrote down the names of five VC's that I most wanted to have on the show. They included the likes of Peter Fenton, Josh Koppelman. Brad, feld and stays guest. And so I could not be more excited and honored to welcome the one Bill Gurley to the horse seat. Now, Bill is a general partner at benchmark, one of the most successful funds of the last decade with portfolio, including the lice of Uber Twitter dropbox, we work Snapchat, stitch, fix EBay, and many, many more incredible companies ask for Bill. He's widely recognized as one of the grace of all time in venture having with the lice of grub hub next door Uber open table, stitch, fix and Zillow. I'm proud to benchmark was apartment partner with Halloween blood venture partners. I'm before entering the world of venture bills, spend four years on Wall Street as a top ranked research analysts including threes. CS First Boston where his research coverage. Pleaded such companies as Dell Compaq and Microsoft, and he was the lead analyst on Amazon IPO. And I do say she's he's bills partners in the form of Chaith in Sarajevo. I'm offended for some fantastic. Questions suggestions today? I really do so appreciate that. But before we dive into the show, stay the end of the day, you'll customers have to be in the center of everything you do. 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Reporting transform your bookkeeping today with automation and join the one thousand coins already on bookkeeper and you can find out more stay on book dot com, how I'm too excited nosedive into this one. And so without further ado, I'm thrilled to hand over to Bill early general partner benchmark. You have now arrived at your destination. Many do not know Bill is that I started four years ago. And I wrote a list of three names that I most wanted to have on the show was absolutely. One of them's I couldn't be more excited to have you on staying. Thank you so much for joining me. Stabile nowhere century noted to, but I would love to kick off with you. So tell me how did you make your way into the world of venture and comes through GPO, one of the walls, my successful funds in the form of benchmark is actually, an unusual story? I think exposes how much luck is involved in some of these things as well as just random opportunity. But when I was in business school, I started thinking about venture, and I reached out to few people, and they said, go work for twenty years. You can't just get into venture and so are wooded. Drove me towards it. My sister was employees sixty three Compaq in Houston. Certainly, one of the first maybe only huge venture back stars out of Houston and Kleiner was actually in it. And so I got exposed to what it meant to have options and for company. Explode. And then I ended up working at Compaq for a while. I started trading stocks, I really liked investing. And I started to realize that tech had all these interesting angles and complexities. You could watch predict as they unfolded. So when I ran into a dead end as VC, the second best thing that looked interesting to me was too, because sell side analysts the team at Goldman at that time was quoted in every tech are Okoth read in the journal, Forbes or fortune, and they were on ticketing about valuation investing around technology evolution, and so I was lucky enough to beg my way onto a job at credit. Suisse First Boston, and was handed coverage of the PC hardware, and software industry, which was extremely fortunate and allowed me to build a network with a whole bunch of different people after three years of that turned out to be more successful than I anticipated. I got a call one day from Frank Tron, the legendary front Quattro, and he said, we're leaving Morgan Stanley and starting a new investment Bank. And we'd like you to be a part of it. And. At the time at already made a decision that I wanted to move on from this side, and I sit down Frank and he said, Bill, what do you to do long term, and I said, I wanna be venture capitalist. And he said, I'll tell you what you come to work for me on movie to Silicon Valley and introduce should ever bencher capital now, which is what he did. And it only took thirteen months of that before I got the offer I spent eighteen months at Hummer wen blood, and then benchmark approach me with an offer. I just couldn't refuse. And that's how I ended up here. I have Salih love that his Nanjing saying, I have to spell it. That's one thing that I'm holding until now I've never seen the boom and bust cycles from the macro is back with me actually being in the workforce. Now, I asked Justice walnut sauce. And he said that seeing blooming bus mating more conservative as an ambassador. So you having seen multiple boom bust. How do you think impacted your investing mentality today? I have multiple views on this subject. So when I went to Wall Street before I went into venture, I read every book on the history of financial market. That possibly could including all the famous ones that you've heard about. And so the notion going back to the two of boom and bust. It's well recorded in angels financial history. So you get tons of exposure to it if you just look for silicon valley's initiating placed because I've never been around a group of people, where risk is forgotten so quickly. And that's one of the things I would say having watched two of these. It's like the period. So we had huge bust in a one and a period from oh, one to say, maybe seven eight there was quite a bit of cognitive awareness of that. But then it can go away very quickly. And what's interesting is each day that goes on as the market expands people take on more and more risk. But they're losing their aversion to risk very slowly. And so, you know, it's like the bullfrog thing over maybe a five year period. You're VC firm has taken on tremendous amounts risk. But every day you just moved a little bit. So you never felt like you were making this massive gap in risk exposure. When mark. Bust risk, aversion comes on mmediately like overnight bone. And so you have this very different principle. We take on more risk, slowly, but we recognize risk quite quickly when market bus. Now here's what I said, I have multiple us on this of the I spent a ton of time in the past couple of years thinking about the cyclicality venture market centers, actually, in this really interesting. I was fortunate enough to get to spend some time with Howard marks famous bond investor and he said, tell me for twenty minutes or so. Just tell me about your business, and after I explained it for a while he goes, well, your business sucks. And he said, you can't avoid account. He said, I have a strategy for when I think yields, you're going to expand in where they're gonna contract. Always have a game to play goes, you're going to have boom bust cycles. Always, and I think he's actually, right. I think it's inherent in the way they venture funds are structured, where you take on money you invest in return, it over, like a ten year period and it's low barriers to entry high bare stacks it. So as market start to boom, the amount of capital that comes into the categories immense. But when the market breaks the capital doesn't have a mechanism to go away quickly, because it's already been committed to these ten in your windows. And so I don't know win the next one's going to be, and I will tell you that the other thing, I realized is that the vast majority of the average returns over a multi decade window are right at the end of the cycle. And so if you get conservative and pull back and miss, there were venture firms in ninety six. Six. He said this is way too overheated. We're pulling back and they miss ninety seven ninety eight ninety nine and if you took a pension funds venture returns and looked at him. The overtime that's my point. Like in took out those three years, it'd probably be horrible category. And so there's a saying I can't remember who said it to me, but they said the best way to protect against the downside is Jin joy every last bit of the which unfortunately sounds like kind of a Thelma and Louise approach. I mean I absolutely love that. And that, oh my God. I'm already said enjoying this app sake. I do you have to say because I often think, as he said, the capitals, committed for ten years in front stretches, and we've never seen so much capital commission, see asset costs. So from the founder and fundraising perspective, doesn't means it really stop even with a market crash, I guess is my question would have. I think what happens which already discussed is the risk of urgen of the principles happens very quickly. I've really only seen it twice a one nine but everybody gets hyper conservative at the same time. The other thing that will be super interesting winning if it ever happens again, if you were to define risk, and I think it's arguable you could as the burn rates that these companies have the burn rates now are probably tours of magnitude higher than they were in the ninety nine two thousand for, for some of these companies and if capital gets hard, that's going to be a really interesting issue. Now, we haven't seen forget hard in a long time for sure. I mean actually it takes me something that my Pontefract says the whole time and he's has around pricing, stay assets prices if risky is known existence. I'm really interested at Pete offense and you'll wonderful partners that on the show, never turn down a deal based on binary. It's a mental trap. I guess my question substance use, in Tennessee frothy times more capital available environments. How do you think about your price sensitivity? You look there's a reality in the venture market that you'll hear people talk about, which is there's a symmetric risking reward and so it just using type one. A tight to heirs. Right. If I invest in a company that doesn't work, I lose one time, my money, so I made an air, right? I'm this was going to work and it didn't if I decide not to invest in Google that Aaron decision making costume thousand whatever thousand next whatever the number was in. So I think Peter's point of saying that which I think is partially just to provoke the our partnership is, as we make decisions is tied to that reality. I think the real caveat to it is, if this company were talking about has optionality to be one hundred extra be fun maker kinda company, then certainly entry price does not idea agree that one of the big determinants of one hundred x fun town, as the alleman of Mockus. Oh, is in China. You'll potent us our travel before the accolade, and she said, if there's one thing I had to spill. She said it was market sizing. I am interested. How do you think about an approach market sizing stay when assessing new opportunities come through bench, more stool, I developed my own tenant? Maybe. Similar Peters on price sensitivity, which is, I think venture capitals. And once again, both on the price common and the Tam discussion we're having keep in mind, benchmark is committed to very early stage investing so we're frequently meeting with two people in a PowerPoint talking about an industry. So this isn't I don't think price insensitivity in late stage. Investing is a smart idea for shampoo. And so would say and I've talked about is just that I've come to believe people get into more trouble by over focusing on Tam analysis, especially in these super early stage companies and the example that probably most profound at this point that I wrote a long post about was oover where this NYU professor, her done analysis and said, this company should only be worth five billion, but is baseline was that it's going to get some percentage of the black car taxi market, which he went out and analyzed, right? And at the moment wrote it the size of Uber in San Francisco is already ten. Ex the tax him black car market in my points, not to dwell on him. And, and in that post, I also mentioned, this very famous story where AT and T hired McKenzie to critic, the number of cellphones by the year two thousand in nineteen eighty in missed by hundred. And so all too often what I've seen is. If technology brings about an easier simpler cheaper solution. You know, there's a good chance that the thing could expand the market in blow things out of proportion, and I found that state, especially true in the vertical plays open table was one where every we try to raise money after we invested, it was always long Tam discussion. So anyway, ruin accustomed to saying to myself, what could possibly be true, that would cause you know, those types of Taman asus to be wrong, and there's another phrase that my partner Bruce made up, which I love which gets at the symmetry thing, which is it elects to say what could go right? Which is interesting play on words from the common phrase, I love that won't could go right? I, I am. Interested. You sat there about table elements in terms of signaling. What definitely for me, and I think probably for people, I suddenly, they see over successive benchmark has had an into of companies and raises the signaling and positive signaling of banish mall, nor lead to such around power and brand validity subsequent, raises also much easier is not naive thinking, well, I mean, it also depends on the timeframe, I certainly think in the last five years. That's true. I think the companies we invest indefinitely benefit from a brand halo. And I think part of that 'cause I talked to both the angel community and the later stage community, I think part of, it's because they realized we won't invest without a board seat. It's intended that we have that a lot of other firms. Don't end part of the reason is we take me responsibility of being a principal donor and being a contributor on the board. Very seriously. And if you're an angel or your later stage investor in, you know, that there's someone there that takes the issue of sure do. Duty and, and helping that company to be worth more and more very seriously. Well, that makes you feel better about those assets, and there are a handful of firms that enjoys doing what we do, but there, if you look at all the venture Gahler's that are out there, I think the numbers that really take that role. Seriously as actually small fraction of now say, I do agree to you. I say bull that he's very transparent. I've just gave my shoe subordinates, a massive learning price SM London. I'm trying to scale it's false as possible, according to analysis, you spend three thousand two hundred dollars on a bold Bill. So I did have to ask how these self evolve and develop a board member over time question. My firm had this wonderful dinner with peer LeMond, who's still practicing venture age of eighty eight years old famous Koi investor and in a mood Danner. He said, actually just kinda surprising way said, I'm the best board. Members ballot. Wow. And I say why he goes, I'm more prepared than anyone else at the table, I was going to mention to things, but Pierre really made me smile when he said that because I do think showing up having read everything being intimately aware of everything you're supposed to be aware of is super important in the board room. Setting the second thing that I think is interesting is that all board members learn over time, I think, I think it will just happen to anyone who's getting an early start. When you're young, you speak too much in the boardroom, and you learn to change that behavior over time, and I tell you the best pattern are the best, the best rule set that I've used to do that is any time I have an idea that pops into my head during a board room. I'll write it down. And then asked myself, does this need to be discussed right now is there a benefit of this being discussed, but the other board members right now or is that something I could put in a note to the CO after the board meeting to follow up on? And so I'll make a list of. Twenty things I'll maybe mentioned five of them in the Boardman, other fifteen. All right up in some follow with the elements of speaking, and kind of know being over in times of speech. Would that be your biggest advice to me in terms of my first see what would you advise someone? Just gained best definitely that and the other thing is, you know, your circle of competence. Right. And so if there is a point that is going to be super helpful, and you're the right person to make it then you certainly should. But if you're relevant or if it's something that someone else at the table knows a lot more than you maybe ask them question. Instead. I agree. I have to say because obviously boats these take a lot of time in terms of time on medication. I've had many different views on the show that some say, you've got to spend time with your Wednesday return, the fund of, say you can't afford to spend time with the loses because you're covering sentence on the dollas. How do you think about timeout location across the portfolio, and if up in some lessons crooning credible decade, the up, it's a conundrum for the reason? You said I mean there are companies in any venture portfolio. They're going to be delivering one hundred more return than another one that you might be working on end so from purely selfish point of view than I would have to short term selfish. You would tell yourself only spend time here and the other thing I would tell you is that the struggling ones, and I don't know the exact stats are, like half of venture backed startups are zero something like that. You're going to have some of those they can be quite taxing from a mental standpoint. You know, seeing that entrepreneurs face going through things like layoffs. Which the valley hasn't seen much of the best, five years, having to do the raw raw meeting with the sixty percent of the headcount that's left. Those things are hard. They are really hard and they're mentally taxing. And so that's even more of I guess, a selfish short-term perspective wanna hang out on the winters. Here's the challenge. You know, if you're going to be a successful venture capitalist for two or three decades, you're going to have a reputation and your reputations going to be a part of what allows you to win or not win investment opportunities in the future. And so you'd be surprised how many founders when they ask for references say, hey, let me talk to some of the CEO's that didn't work. I think it's become a question that they've been told they're supposed to ask, and your reputation might be built on those both positively it's as he said it can undermine one that I'm Dan. Get my head around idea have to maybe slightly above yourself to benchmark, and the incredible ship that you have around Jeep, especially on the investment decision making we touched on south bay. On south bay price on this tippety that markets rising in some of the analysis in terms of the decision making process, Joel show, human said, it's not about getting the deal through the polish of finding the truth together. What does the investment seizure, making process crank for you of benchmark and how to use a partnership to find the truth together, so imaging the vast majority investments? We make are very early stage and as a result, it's not the type of situation where you're going to have ten people dive into spreadsheets in present all these arguments. There's way more intuition at play in many cases, eighty percent of the weight might just be group decision about the competency or capability of founder and in many cases that's turned out to be exact right debt. And so we have the listeners may not know benchmark structure in a very unique way where our investment partners, all have equal economics. And I think that doesn't amazing job of speaking to the newer, members of our team that their voice matters. And so it's very Claburn live, and we will simply have discussion and sometimes a company might come from particular sector, where certain partners have more knowledge, and so you're going to allocate. Those inputs better in a recent book thinking in bets any do koetter instincts section where she said, one of the benefits of partnership or small group isn't you've come to know the weaknesses of everyone else. And I thought that was kind of interesting to bet that everyone of the partners, benchmark knows the type of opportunity that each of us might fall in love with for the wrong reasons. And so we can help each other in that way. I thought that was interesting way she had raise. And so we simply have a discussion and if a majority of the partnership wants to move for we move for, I absolutely with the times of anti-g can. And I thought that was a fascinating beast possible. And I say Kay in terms of the is e fall in love with maybe for the wrong reasons if you sell finalize, can you see that in yourself from what type of ills, days, it's a. Question for the other four, but I suspect it has something to do with network effects or user, generated content or those types of concepts are like emotionally appealing to me. So anyone walks in and users, those two phrases might have a problem. Funny. I teed off to. She mentioned. Varying carries is an incredible personalities you have within the ship in terms of Halton selection. One guests on the show. Is that before I'd rather be known? So being a palton pick the investment banker. So I was very interested by that. But how do you think about the potency? Let to answer benchmarking and really what you look for in the I don't know what to you boots really interesting comment, because it implies from my point of view, that whoever said it experienced seriously, the career of being a venture capitalist adventure capital firm, as opposed to just the idea of being a investor on boards because one of the only things I think that a firm needs to do properly to be able to have very successful over very long period of time is to have a way to do generational. Transition in have a way to bring people in help them develop into being incredible venture capitalist. And so it's something we. Been a ton of time on every single week. We're talking about it. I'm going to give you a list of five or six practitioner, although, I don't know that it's not ten youth, is something that I've spoken about quite a bit. I think venture capital ins towards youth. There's a hustle element. There's a curiosity element. There's a lot of these really big outcomes are started by people that are nineteen to twenty one. So there's a if I'm in the right networks, I'm closer to these people. Some of the things up like a Snapchat, too. You're not down in that generational element. You're just gonna miss it. And so I think there's a whole bunch of reasons. Why youth is important curiosity super important, we talk a lot about business judgment that ones, always weird to me, because I think we have an internal definition of it. But I don't know that the world does is something we just kinda feel. I think you need an investor mindset. Not everyone either likes to our decides that they wanna thank like an investor and I think it requires a combination of understanding the hissed. Of invest in a certain amount of skepticism. I don't think you can just be hide piper optimistic in polit- off. And then the last thing owed to you need to be passionate about being venture capitalist. I think twenty years ago, there were a lot more people on the planet that were passionate about it as an industry career choice. I think they're less today and frequently there are people that we find that meet those first four criteria, but they're just not interested in category. That seems see preemies strange. How does that revealed itself? Are they might just tell? And that changed overtime like I said, I think twenty years ago to anyone had an opportunity to join the top tier firm. They jump at. But I think today, there are people that just have other desires passions, I will tell you, there's another piece to it that I should mention. I think people on the outside may not realize how much selling goes into venture. Capital is probably the one thing that I didn't realize when I joined that I know lately now but I could argue you're spending eighty five or ninety percent of your time south. And so if you don't like selling, it's a bad career choice. Can I ask what did you find the most challenging elements of the role? Feed today, I would say for the past five years. The most challenging part for me is just been this abundance of capital. It's equally mystifying to our marks and just from reading the commentary Munger and Buffett if it just rates are negative, which they are, in many countries around the globe, the DCF model just has an NA or like error. It doesn't work. And so there's just so much. Kabq Yulia de the tampering right now because these massive amounts of capital that it raises, you know, strategic questions that have never been presented to boardrooms ever like in history of business. Now, I do agree at the final one before we move into the clarify, which is my favorite speaking of that Hamilton, Taneja, as she general continents, that Harry, it's actually thirty transformational shift to technology, interrupting in embracing parts of the economy, and that she, we would see a macro DASA because of that embracing every single Konomi that we know with tentacles g agree with that kind of study transformational, macro shift, or do you think actually nothing's invincible to macro cycles? I have a whole bunch reactions to that. My gut is what you just said that. There's no ways it's unavoidable, which was my opinion coming out of that. Wonderful conversation with our, I have two other thoughts of right? One anytime of venture capitalist opens their mouth. They're probably sending a message to founder they haven't met yet and saying. That it's going to be thirty years of wonderful glory, all roses, and no thorns is certainly better message than screaming the skies fall. And so I can understand why most venture capitalist would adopt the I believe in technology. I believe talking to be great. The second comment I would have is already mentioned in the best way to protect against downside is Tim joy every last bit of the upside, I've got no incentive to change my operating principles are the way I go about doing the job, just because I think one day, the cycle minded, and so I'm going to be operating, as if I believed, would he said, even if I don't. I love that about realization, I d want into my favorite album and they Bill being the quickfire rounds Icee statement and you give me your immediate slip out sixty seconds all last. That's on good Boca. Okay. So the favorite Bookham why what must we be reading? My favorite book is that was actually written in a long time ago at called complexity by Mitchell Waldrop, and it's about the rise of the Santa Fe institute, which, I've very recently joined the board of which super excited about. It's also a board to Bill Millard Mike mos- since it on who you may know the book was about complexity theory. And that's what Santa Fe's about another way of saying that it's multi variable non linear systems. And I read it when I was twenty five twenty six and it just had such a profound impact on how I see different models in systems and economies and opportunities and investments because most things in life are multi variable non linear systems, and it was so like. Shockingly impactful in my brain like no other book ever has been. Maybe it's because of youth albums that people listen to that same timeframe tend to stick more. But I have a pile of that book in my office. I have ever since I read it. I give it out. I had this one's don't keep possible, but even sheathed one could want to achieve in venture when you the Greer in the decade, benchmark, what makes it as he stabil-? I have a profound affection for the art of helping founders realize their dream and imagining with them, a future that we've been bad on and help make come true. I want said, if, if we lived in a completely socialist society, where all jobs had the exact same pay. I think it's still choose to do this now. It's a canceling. What did you do? Now that you wish you'd known at the start of your career in BC Bill that was pretty easy. So I had a meeting or my firm, benchmark had a meeting with leering Sergei, where were they said, will you invested one hundred and we should have said. Yes, I would tell myself that no idea agree question, and I struggled with this the other day when is a stretch stretch to fall when you're going for something that's twenty pre two stone. And it ends safety pre you tell yourself, I'm gonna still forty pre and it goes to forty five. I think what happens in those situations, at least for us is we start internally having as intensiveness quicker discussions. We possibly can about how much upside is really in the situation, and it goes back to where we were saying earlier about, is this, the kind of thing that, that could be fun maker. And we've made missed on that in the past, and I would say our biggest regrets in this goes back to Peter's tenant about price, a lot of our biggest regrets, are when we got to worried about price Q allow for regret invention because of the symmetry situation that I talked about. We do dwell on the decision errors led us to miss big winners. We don't do L on. On the decisions that led us to make a bad investment. Absolutely an ultimate one. When you buy benchmark in the decade, what are you most? Proud of I think, would I would say is defending partners, put together this crazy idea of this equal partnership. And also, we're structure, and very artisan way. We don't have analysts or associates running around the partners, do all the due diligence themselves. We don't have huge teams of PR people or marketing departments or anything like that. Because we just liked to maximize the time we spend out on the field and they put together the structure this equal partnership. And I don't think any of them I don't know if they knew at the time, it's amazingly helpful for generational change. Because it gives you the opportunity to go out. Get the very best candidate you possibly can because people end this happened to me when a perch me like the overwhelming sense of welcome, you get when someone's willing to say, hey, you deserve as much as we do is super powerful. And so I would say the thing I'm most. Out of it. We're moving towards our third generation of partners in their all wonderfully fed several on your show, and I just love the model endures. It's also one we're team stands out way above the individual and for people to come on here that that's something that's super meaningful to them as well. You know how I feel about the Nippon is on this thing on the ship. It's been such a compliment, but the final one that I have to spell nice recently publicly announced investment that you made and why you say cited yes, a little contrarian. We put some money in a company called good, exits online grocer. And there's really all mentioned two fundamental things that got us excited won the CEO, Bentley hall is someone if you spent an hour with, you know exactly why I was so compelled ease a perfect for the role east guy. Great leadership skills incredible. External presenter communicator. And in the second reason was, you know, having watched a bunch of different industries of all. And as we're seeing the restructuring of retailing, we believe that if you're gonna do some type of directed consumer approach, you have to have the perfect supply chain or the optimal supply chain for doing that. And we think that a purpose, built distribution center designed for direct to consumer, perhaps, as an alternative to something like an instant car where you're picking things out of a store, but it's early like we do things are so it's early. We'll see Bill have sad. I've wanted Steed it since the very upset over four years ago, I can't find enough for joining me. And it's been such a pleasure. Oh, no worse. It really enjoyed it. And I have to say and I really probably shouldn't say this, but of the episodes, I've done that probably has to be the one that's delivered one of the greatest moments of joy for me, such pleasure to build on the show. And if you'd like to see more from Bill, you can find him on Twitter at be girly. Likewise, it'd be wonderful to welcome, you behind the scenes here, you can do that on Instagram at H dubbing nineteen Ninety-six with TB's. It'd be great see that. But before we leave each day at the end of the day, you'll customers have to be in the center of everything you do. And that's why impulse coup is just so crucial being you'll real-time customer data platform in other words and Bosco is the fosters most efficient way to keep customer data in sync everywhere for marketing analysts is to customer support and particle empowers different teams to execute on that tape is independent Naples to understanding the customer illicitly but don't take my word for it. They have the lives of abbey and be Spotify jet dot com on more owners loving customers to find out more had an particle dot com. That's an part, cool dot com. And the only thing that I think is equally important is the customer itself is your. Yourself and he struggled sleep at night. I know I do. And it's not just the seven Espresso MARTINI to me that cools it. But if you do struggles asleep, you're not alone one in three adults in the US do not get enough sleep. And that's why we're partnering with comb, the number one ATF asleep with commun- discover a whole library of programs designed to help you get in sleep, your brain, and body needs like soundscape and over one hundred sleep stories, narrated by very soothing voices and dulcet tones. And before you all stay haven't asked me yet still in the mail. I think so seize the day today right now twenty listeners get twenty five percent off a comb premium subscription. Calm dot com slash to'serve, e c comb dot com forward slash chooser VC, and see why the forty million people have downloaded calm. And finally, if we're talking about things that keep us up at night, keeping would definitely be it for me. And that's what bulky becomes in keep it provides ultimated bookkeeping support to businesses by using a powerful combination of skilled accountants, alongside machine learning and artificial intelligence. So essentially. 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