Talking with Josh Groberman & Terry Etam on transitioning from fossil fuels
Welcome the core is notes. I'm cory Morgan this week I had a great chat I sat down with Josh Grover Vermont needs to publisher the O report. He's a little bit strange, but he's got a lot of break things to say about the energy industry and that's what the report specializes in. Also sat down with Terry and he's a columnist with the report and he wrote a really refreshing book called the end of fossil fuel insanity clearing the air before cleaning the air and it cuts through just a lot of the BS the hysteria. The the atmosphere that we've had coming out with people hysterically trying to get us off a fossil fuels without. Realizing, what that actually means or how he could realistically get there and he talks about things like really what is so bad about big well, because in all honesty, it isn't such a bad thing necessarily or how people have been lying with statistics. So it was a really fun and Informative, chat with the with both of them and it'll be it's an excellent episode. So thanks for sitting down with me Josh and Terry and. Grow to course notes podcast. So we got a big area to cover and you guys are the energy industry experts we been. We call ourselves. Well, yeah. Of course experts such a popular bird these experts you could write a story about how you know. We say something and then Oh experts say this straight that's us. Yeah. You. You're not gonNA professor or Cauda Mr Emmy number fraud. Right in your report I just. Go to school did you tell the school to teach economics? So how can you say you're an expert because you at for me? I. Love that approach when it comes to a lot of things with discourse in discussions when people say you can't speak to that because you aren't me doctor in such and such this. Well, you know what? I don't have to be a chef I've a shitty meal. So you don't have to be one of those vaunted experts and things I to their name to be able to have. Helicopter Traffic Reporter. I was damn good. Helicopter Traffic Reporter. Well, there's something. There's something about that is when you actually do something and I write about this a lot. When you do something you, you know what? It's like to to build something you know hard it is harder to change something that's a book about it can changing the. Transitioning to a new energy system just how difficult is you have a lot of people out there and academics tend to be guilty of, and I tend to throw them under the bus. In generically, it's not right because there's a lot of them are are do know what they're talking about. But when your academic and you say this is how we're going to do something that doesn't translate into the real world very well I remember that you've that from university to university well, that stuff doesn't work in the real world. But when you do something for a while, you learn how does work? And when it comes to energy these days everybody talks what how we're going to get off of fossil fuels and I just as well. Maybe someday but that being a century. So yeah, when you wrote the the end of fossil fuel insanity and clearing the before cleaning the air and that's been Yeah I thing. We're seeing this almost obsessive, really push to get out of fossil fuels. Fine. But nobody's quite developed the alternative us it might come people say well, you know cars replaced horses and buggies yet but they didn't illegalize the horse and Buggy in order to bring about the car one came in yeah. Displaced people people use that analogy and the use of the cellphone analogy to. And they drive me crazy because they're. So that's that is not the same thing at all. When you when people went from horses to cars that revolutionized transportation, you weren't limited by the distance, a horse could travel or what it could eat or the weather conditions much. You could go anywhere there's a road you could drive across the country. You couldn't do that on a horse it completely revolutionized everything. and. When you've got a cell phone, a cellphone didn't district place a landline cellphone as a computer it does billion things. That a landline never did so those are completely. Irrelevant comparisons th. There's nothing in common with converting. The most energy dense useful energy source. We have other than nuclear, which is hydrocarbons to replace it with something, which is less energy dense. It is greener for sure and environmentally it is better but that doesn't mean you can convert to it and that doesn't mean people are going to run to it just like the ran from a horse to a car, it's not even valid comparison. No it's. there. It's the the idea that you just replace. Gasoline with another fuel source. Migrating a great article for next week. Oh I do it'll be on. The be report, but it's I read. I did some reading about systemic thinking in e systemic thinking. Then it was this. There's some researchers that are talking about the pandemic here and how it was tackled incorrectly because it was tackled each hysterically people were looking at the bits and pieces rather than the bigger picture and that's exactly the problem with an energy conversion here a few if you read about. Systemic thinking and how you want if you want to change a system you, it's incredibly difficult. But the first thing you have to do you have to start putting boundaries around the system because you're gonNA save while we're going to change this parameter parameter or this component. And then then you can make it manageable if you don't put boundaries around it, you see you can't change it. It's just an but that's exactly what people are trying to do with hydrocarbons are saying, well, let's get rid of all of them and we have to ten years and it's like, what does that mean worse? Where do those tentacles? What do you do with? What are you going to do with all of the tankers that are you just going to cut him up for scrap metal? What about all of hundreds of thousands of miles of pipelines? What about all the people you can't retrain geophysicist install solar panels that just doesn't work in the real world. Two governments replaced the tax revenue from. So this transition that people talk about I heard time even seek it as a transition it started custody about of materials that go into renewable. Energy generation. And you got a mind this stuff's got the precious metals. You GotTa? She requires a gigantic amount of energy to put one of these things together and then you have to replace them. Right. You have to get a whole bunch more energy to do that and it's just like. Almost like a constant cycle, pick any one of those threads pick aluminum. For example, if you want to replace the aluminum is source for cell phones or whatever or winter binds or whatever there may open. Without hydrocarbons, how do you find it? How do you mind? How do you process it? How do you transport it? All, you want to get hydrocarbons one element that you would have to re map around the world, which would be a challenge in itself but people were saying we're going to do that with everything including transportation. There's no, there's no I. Don't think there's any evidence either like any. Country or state or any jurisdiction on the planet actually no, and that's why reducing. Accidents are getting more frustrated because they're saying nothing happening. Yeah. Nothing's happening because I, think works Kanye and that's one of the challenges when it comes to Mitch a little bit before we started recording communications and that's A publication like Barueri, report is nice. That specializes in energy conventional energy. Fossil fuels, but you're lay still typically probably isn't reading that like how do we reach out to your average person on the ground? Really doesn't know a hell of a lot about how their car moves because they don't and they they look at the historic images. Drives me mad when I see mainstream publications do an article about pipelines and they show some leaky surface thing up in Siberia out on the Tundra. Spent four years working in the Arctic. We don't do that. It's not like that but these are the mental images that your average consumer or worse voter yet. This is what the Taiwan I was because you always have you always write about it. No but the. You I don't think they teach kids like how gasoline is made and how cars move. The touch on it a little bit. About any of that. They have to actually just explain how the world works more. Rather than they're just going from here to there, but they're saying, oh, this climate change this that and the other thing. But instead of saying, okay, cars are powered by gasoline gasoline comes from oil. You know here's how refinery works very basic principles. Any more about that that would bridge a gap, but they also have to stop death to that's that's one tiny threat of it like you. You look around the room there's nothing everything that is here to here because of hydrocarbon right it wouldn't be here. Even the wouldn't be here because you can't. You can't get all of the would to make this furniture by hand. But did they did they felt like when you guys were little kids Oliver. Seventy years ago did they used to teach it? You. Look around the flat screen TV that it was probably less than a thousand dollars now is completely made of hydrocarbons for the most part you're not gonNa have it and and these these people will complain usually complain about the vulnerable people in society in difficulties they have a standard of living nothing would drive the loss of standard of living higher than getting rid of the. Episodes of how it's made, which is a wonderful. Show but people just don't care about stuff they don't nobody cares volume. When it's here when it's there whenever you want it, people just take it for granted coup. Who thinks about heat when you go into a building in winter, you don't think about it. It's warm. You're nobody goes in and says, well, I'm grateful that it's warm in here today look down the line all the way from the Got Punch Button in. Its come into the just talking about the installation in building. WHO LOVES TO? Talk about that maybe to talk about it without saying one way or another just say this is how this is done. And that's it maybe without trying because one way or another well, like there's there's a couple of examples where people almost died because of a shortage of of fuel last last winter. Quebec, almost ran out of propane because the real railways were blockaded legally and and and and. Hospitals in parts of Quebec Society which were running fuel, and they're like, this is a big deal. It's the middle of winter. We need to keep our hospital heated and the same thing happened in Rhode Island in two thousand nineteen, they ran out of natural gas or they couldn't get enough in because they won't allow pipelines in. And a bunch of people almost throat to throws to death they declared a state of emergency. So if there and that hasn't been a good learning experience for people, it hasn't really registered that I've seen anyways because Rhode Island went right back to getting on the we gotta Get rid of Fossil Fuels Bandwagon. -fornia. Right now, it's just about as dangerous view to heat wave in southern. California you're a senior in a house without air conditioning as near as deadly as without heat candidate in February, and that's because they've gone too far to renewables without an and at the same time got rid of too fossil fuels getting rid of their shutting down the gas fired power plants and nuclear plant to, and then there's they're counting on on renewables and when they recognize there is a shortfall in power and they say, well, we'll just get it from other states but that's not a solution to a problem like if everybody does. Do the same thing with how's that going to work, but they still won't learn from that. The mainstream of opinion won't see value. Oh, they're kind of forced to but I think there's too many vested interests now there's just too much of a climate industry. That that they exist to to discredit fossil fuels and that's the hardest thing that battle I think. Yeah. That's their pros. So I want to ask you something corey if you think about Alberta. Planning. For sure happening but they're saying that they're going to open an office in Montreal. To advocate for oil district. Yeah, I. Think they're pissing in the wind it'll be nice patronage appointment to stick somebody give what do they do that? I want to know what they do. They're gonNA open up an office play cards yeah and then some guys up in the morning is it go to the office the PUCK is going to make budget calls and set up some meetings and no one will talk to. Make, some reports he's GonNa. Make reports me about phase one brings me into something that I wanted to cover is the the catastrophic in my view failure Miss War Room the Canada Energy Center now that me even I look at the jaundice eye as soon as they see release to this I, just I would like to say that I'm very disappointed in Kelly who voted for Who has completely and I don't know if it's him or him trusting the people around him to. To do certain things. But they have totally adopted the Alison Redford strategy. Of. Over going to say all these nice things market, we will be this and that and it just never works and it does not work. At there are. A little bit of good things coming out of there. But but for the budget and for the time they've had it's it's it's just so far off the rails that and. What to do with this? Like we see all these these things put this out and then what happens. Maybe it's time to stop apologizing you know pushing back I. mean that was the talkie had coming into the election we're going to push back. We're going to stand up for ourselves and all I'm seeing is more soft selling capitulation. Yeah. On this I mean it's not working guys you can't appease these people. So now it's time to say to hell with you I mean you know with the threats of though I mean that was a difficult area we talking about shutting in. Private expert of resources to other areas but there's gotta be things we can do to put pressure on outside areas like Albert has been made into the pricks of the industry. We've got the oil sands. We are the demon they described were an awful evil people I worked in Pennsylvania for a few years in the field F. that's an oilfield quaker steak pennzoil I mean they were drilling to replace whale oil hundred and fifty years ago, and if you want to see war note oil facilities, your leaky pipes, you want to see an eco disaster you see abandoned facilities hello to Pennsylvania but nobody talks about that we're talking. Driving through La right beside a freeway all. The oil, the middle of town. Oh. Had I'VE GOT TO VIDEO I. Found up north of Pittsburgh I was heard this sounded sound like a jetliner like what the Hell is this and I'm walking through the Bush thick Bush in northern Pennsylvania. I'm getting closer and closer here coming to this washout. Here's a pipe that has been exposed. Probably spending and up to a spot with a few pin flags marking the spot here's a crack in it and a couple of clamps. So somebody tried to repair it and it's just blasting gas into the flammable. Stench but That wouldn't happen for a minute number somebody on knew about it the reports, the process we had to go through these things happen. Yeah and the assholes. We hasn't done a great job cap hasn't done a great job can he's not done a great job with the war room but but what is our message? What? What do we tell people and there's a lot of advocacy groups out there. Blow in there. They're running as fast. It can. They're doing this. Great a job as in can but I still think we need cohesive message are we talking about? Are we the economic engine of Canada? Are we defending our record? Because there's there's we have to I. Think we have to know how reviewed across Canada for better or worse I. Mean. Albert has always been have province right to have problems. We don't have a sales tax year that's still bugs a lot of people across the country you got thirty never sales. What do you want to resonate across the country? What's the message you want to give people? So I think that the industry has to kind of come together in a fitting from. Maybe the messaging coming along more like that give me more and to keep the lights on and keep them with their standard of living. If we go to this wind and solar I mean we got a cost. Oh, show at the transition. These utility bills are going to quadruple. Vulnerable people are GonNa get in a little trouble they practically, it's more about like people's lives and how businesses can operate here first. So you know people can think we're Dick's all day long. But the the problem is, once we can't build the pipeline. Or once a project gets constrained or once you can't do this and hire people and grow. And at those points, he got to really look inwards and say, okay, what are we? What are we getting out of this thing with Canada and how can we? Try. And also people lose sight of they look at it as Alberta's some sort of. Independent Beastie people want to become independent, but it's not a now bird is made up of Canada like I'm from Scotch when you're like every, half the province comes from somewhere else yet. So this this, this is as much of a melting pot and the other half comes from some other countries. There maybe two percent is native. Newfoundland capital is Fort mcmurray. Yeah. It's like. This. Nate average suburban neighborhood here is like the United Nations. There's people from everywhere here and so. It's not a bird it. Is Not just the oil thing it's Canada. But they don't mind the candidate. Really. There's a lot of people in the country that don't care. They don't care and they've and they've been but I don't think you could make them care unless well, other people got to them first and plant the bad blood rates and thinking you know. We've tried making them care being nice. Oh Yeah. That's that failed. We're still considered assholes I mean here's the point where we get nothing to lose. Let's make him kicking him in the balls I am talking about starting to actually embargo back I did like Kenny's idea of like if Alberta can collect our portion of the federal tax stuff like that if we can do our own pension slammed we can do. The same tools at our disposal Quebec does. The same tools that Putin does he cuts in? And then that gets people's tables get turned off gasoline cat we won't our industry won't we're free market well, that's part of the difficulty stand if you're talking about shutting down a pipeline going out well, that means you're talking about shutting down whoever those companies were that we're feeding that by not going to have a problem and I mean there's got to be ways that we can get aggressive. We Got Biden now talking depending on which our. About, shutting down the keystone yet. Again, this thing pipelines become possible stateside as well. I mean it's getting to Q. Denise a big. We have a big. Loser problem here with a bunch of losers run in this country. Who when they go. And instead of focusing on trump or whoever the states on getting the keystone pipeline built were more concerned about talking about other stuff. Well, we really need to start focusing more attention and we do have a middle everage I mean we're not. We're not like a small partner to the US we. Quite. We've got a lot but I mean there's there's no worse position to be in with a client if you're only or your prime one i. mean that's where if we had a nice big coastal access, a large port going on where I? Think you know the other client knows hey. You WanNa be. pecker heads fine. There's a whole world of customers out there now that we can ship to. Yeah. But we can't ship like we don't have a port. Yes. So that's getting your backs. You Got Berta. A that's getting back to the necessity of getting up to that tidewater and broadening our customer base, which we really have to look at these things like how can we I've talked for awhile about you know we should pay Montana to build the world's largest oil terminal in Montana. Because if we can get our oil from Alberta Montana which be problem. It's a short hop at that point right and then. Montana bears they can make all the money in the world of administered fighting to take. Yeah. But again, it's still leaves us dependent on what customers. Joel a really big horizontal well I of. We could build the keystone right up to the border at each side and have a real real. Holly Back and forth, and that would meet the regulations out of. But. It's stupid but we're talking about billions of dollars we're sitting on so much like Oh, if we have like a, we were talking about that later we got all these we have so much here we should be like. We should be like the Arabs. And you know have. Wearing Louis Vuitton sunglasses and everybody driving around in the range rovers are spent. Four very long cold dark years working in the Arctic up in the delta. And there are thousands of exploratory cantwell's sitting up there. There's another BERTA. And Oil and gas in the verge mission blue. This is a battle that's been going on for over forty years now and I went to one of the any be hearings in the new VIC wells up there I'll go sit in on it and what a what a joke. So this was two, thousand five or so I think we were going great guns because we were in the boom and we figured we're actually finally to get the Mackenzie Valley pipeline going here's the hearings though. And the open it up to anybody can be an interviewer. So there were Sierra Club Greenpeace all of these assholes and they all spent the money and that's what you gotta wonder where the money's coming from to fly these guys to a new and get up there and clog up the microphone for fifteen minutes each and just kill the entire hearing and they did that Vic, they did it and Yellowknife they did at Norman Wells they did it in every possible spot where you're having eventually that pipeline priced itself. I would have been the government said, okay you can do it now. Okay up to fourteen billion dollars to construct this thing, you you forcing us to give a third of it to the original communities and we can't do it. So they all failed. But we're just sitting such a resource. It's madness. We've blown a lot of opportunities to like. That's just the sad thing to think about I. I was told Terry this. When we were talking about northern gateway the first time. And REDFORD Christy Clark for having their spat. And Clark said, we need a royalty or you know a buck a barrel or whatever the heck it was and Richard's like royalties off the table. So we're not gonna it's like what the Goshi pounded we have how would that be for sitting here right now said the hundreds of thousands of barrels to the coast there just given a buck a barrel cares, oh yeah they would have been in. Mock on money, and at this point we'd have something we can say, okay, we'll stop. There's no constitutional requirement I keep paying US something back but we're we wouldn't be an issue if we the pipeline built yeah, we need to we need to give it another. Go on I think the Corey I've thought about this for a long time. We really need like a good leader to get in that just gets it done. Well. Getting. My view is I mean it's part of where we were disappointed Kenny Kenny smart. He's been a long time. You said all the right words going in but I'm starting to get a feeling and I didn't believe it I. Maybe there's some truth to it. He's got one foot that Ottawa door he still wants make sure you back to obvious gotta crack at the federal thrown you might use a career Paul Prime Minister. So if he starts a true regional fight if he really gets into. A down and dirty eastern bastards freeze in the dark thing he no, he was there will not be a federal future for him. I don't think he has formal plants, but I think he wants to make sure that door is not closed. He loves it there. We need a leader us. We needed a leader to tell him to go to hell we've really do well they leader. Yeah. Well, we'll see like what Arrow tool is like I have zero faith liberals will ever get pipelines this country. I mean at best you'll be. You won't be malignant you. That's the best we can tend to hope for. The best we can. Get Worse. Yeah. Yeah. Because it will lead to get worse are authentic. It's like, what do we get a guy? That'll be better? So keep thinking. Listen Lewis on the report. And I all in on her. She said to me was I asked her. I said, how do we know you can get an hour? How could we feel comfortable or competent the during the? because nobody ever really gets any. She goes. Well, you know in two thousand eight and I'm his lawyer ahead my firm in Toronto during the financial crisis. And things went bad I I bought my house and kept everybody worker. That really resonated. I don't think any of the other guys. Know it was extremely she's a can do sort of person Part of the issue that was the system radio. She got leading you're forced to serve Quebec and Ontario game you can. Try I mean she was she's smart. I would look forward to seeing. Here's a prime minister I think it would really shake. As far as their energy industry. Maybe, just give a snapshot because you your publication, you know reports on it and watches What are you seeing right now all like help the state of the oil and gas industry here yeah. It's the worst it's ever been and I'm not even that old. It's the worst it's ever been. It is so bad right now I mean thank God are my company in tears companies are doing okay because we managed to keep film Cape Balance. Sheet but. Yeah it's horrible. It is Zombie land. Here is dominant none of the companies. So you know there's there's a few problems first of all zero investor money coming in here zero. So, there's no, no new projects The other problem is that there's Majority of oil companies are insolvent southern debts, worth way more than their assets worth and banks are not moving on these companies and assets aren't moving around the states is not a great shape right now but what's going to happen down in the US? Is All these companies Go bankrupt. There's going to be buyers that come in and they'll be some turnover, and then in a couple years, they'll be healthy again and they'll be going. Here, we've got a lot of regulations We got a lot of problems here. Nobody wants to be here. And so there's just not. Anything going on and there's been some big structural changes to the the. Ten twenty years ago Josh was just a little kid there. It was more of an expiration game and there's a lot more activity from just this whole undergrowth. Price. Driven in the past two you'd have price booms, things really booming and a price crashed things to settle down and then come back. It's different this time kind of its there's the whole. Target on her back everybody's just trying to. Feels like trying to stamp the industry and also the the nature of it is changed when the last boom and in the two thousand zero sense took off what said totally different beasts those are big mega-projects with big. Mega companies that had to get those going wasn't an undergrowth a bunch of little junior starting up to got oil sands going now is a totally different thing. And the. Conventional business now to more of a resource, play the shale type thing where you'd you drill two mile horizontal wells underground and you whereas used to drill ten wells to get their reserves. Now you've one or you have one well pad which can develop eat square miles which used to be a lot of wells. So it's a and then there's more automation more efficiency and that sort of thing. So the the need for manpower has shrunk a lot so and with the the. Boom that of the oil sands, it overheated the province that's gone away now and and so so that's pulled back a lot of the the oil patch itself pull back the prices are low, and then we have a target under back adds up to a doctor saying that it's just it's it's awful I. Mean Part of it is that I think he can't rely. I. Mean you're sending invest right up I mean we we know there is demand it's not going away. We have the resource. So in theory, somebody could look at a long-term investment say well, it's still i. Dollars in ten years or fifteen years think there. Was You can't count on it here I mean you try to follow all the rules. As we saw with kinder-, Morgan you jump through all the hoops you spend all the money and guess what they still shut you down like an elite when things crashed and they crashed quickly my survey company shutdown avoided bankruptcy thankfully but I went from employing a bunch of guys two. Independent individual contractor and I went stateside for seven years. But the prices were still low yet. I was busy as tell them the states. So it's not just commodity prices and that's what I'm screaming into. The is apologised for making the excuses for over it slowdown wait a minute there's still an industry, but we're screwing it I mean I'm busy. I'm having trouble finding Labor in Ohio. I. Am John Contingent of Mexicans in Texas that I'm working with. Because they are running off their feet even with low commodity prices, Albert dried up, but I was watching them. Yeah. They were putting those pads in on those shale plays and put punching holes I mean. It was beautiful to go down and see those welding trucks going up and down the road fighting to get a hotel room, and this is ghost towns like we've got stuff in self Albert. And I would come back to in that period and it's dad. I'm talking to my co workers and couldn't cross the border friends and so on and yeah. They're they're struggling through those years. But. It's ridiculous. World Commodity. Price yet we were the ones hurting. And it's a world reputation to people look at cannon and go. You can't get anything done there. So. was laughing stuff at best. Yeah. There's the there's a lot of people here who were employed by capital spending and that that's it like big E. P. firms and big construction project companies and all that, and so they're employing all these people and all these jobs and it's just one hundred percent capital. And that has all dried up so that part of the businesses. Gone too close to nothing. There's a lot of Sa- spinoff industry, and then there's a lot of other ones right and then so the drilling industry has gone to. A minute. Fraction of itself there's only a few healthy companies that way. Dot a lot going on in this. Feel. Sorry I asked. Me With the answer from the national perspective that's part of the problem I. Think if you look in the population centers of east, Eastern Central Canada. They just look out west and they go. Well, they're still producing oil still a sales tax they're they're crying and they're producing almost much oil as it did five years ago or more, and their natural gas is still flowing in rural kate. So but that's the point it. I was in Vancouver a few weeks ago it's like nothing. Everything's fine there. Toronto everything's like they don't know what's going on here. And they don't care. No we just keep chugging along. So your unemployment rates up well, yeah we we've had bad and it's it's as. The dads are in the the the economic indicators here whatever they are is whatever they are. It's way worse than anything will ever show you. It's way worse than anything will ever show you and that's and that's an arbor to focus we a one of the guys I've worked with your pin down economists that from. One of the big banks who's giving a presentation. This is a couple of years ago three or four four or five years ago. Asked him. Point blank on record. From your from Toronto, what's your opinion of low oil prices and he said we like to from a national perspective they're good for the country. So dollar low key and it keeps the dollar low helps the experts and higher oil prices are like attacks and everybody higher gasoline prices like attacks and everybody just increases everybody's cost of inputs. So if you're sitting there in the big population center going, do you want cheap fuel for for your four million people in? Or do you want expensive you'll have oh, we'll take the cheap stuff and that yeah, those guys out there. Well. That's what I'm saying is somehow we gotta get that message make it clear. Yeah. You're all going to benefit I, mean energy impacts, your cost of everything, and if a bird is chugging along producing heavily, you are going to benefit even if you don't realize it, you don't know what you don't feel it out in Montreal. The messaging it didn't come through what what exactly how big is the engine here that people? Have a tendency to look down their nose at the oil sands. Well, what does the oil sands do for the country that that cash flow? What is it done for employment for the past ten fifty years and we're all these people come from if you go to the maritimes. People that you go into any little town and you'll find somebody that's there's money flowing back to that little town from Berta and it used to be ten people. Now it's maybe one but there still a benefit to all those places so and they tend to have more respect for the oil patch than than the urban centre we get less fly from the maritimes. Yeah. Then we do from Toronto and Montreal. Even if we want to look at ST dollars since those two cities probably benefiting a heck of a lot more if my industries again, they realize that that's seems to be our challenge though is somehow making the activists winning it's challenge it's the. Saying before it's the people, take things for granted and urbanization just makes it worse more people. Crowd into inner city and live in high rises in. See these morons on social media saying we don't need oil and gas. Some, Guy from Toronto saying we don't we have. We have nuclear and renewables. That's where I get my heat from winter you all. Virtue signaling from assholes. Calgary City Hall Oh. We power our trains on renewables. You're all seem grid. European Green. Liam. Greenwash you're. Just just it's Exactly. That's all it is. Verging links working and it's making things office what it is. Yeah. Anybody that says all the. The train is powered on renewables. Such bullshit, but that's what makes it such. A topsail I is that you go to the average citizen most people do not care. Most. People understand that they don't understand it and they don't care when I started my own website start writing pulled some people and some people were very helpful. They were totally outside of the oil patch hit with a bunch of things like these topics to write about and what I heard backwards I care about the price of gasoline because I see that every day and. fracking bad I. Know that that's those are the kind of like the two themes the day that people would talk about and. Everything else in between a vacuum and they just don't they don't care the big question I. Guess it always comes what's in it for me. So maybe that's what we've got to make a little more clear low to these other people show them how they personally are benefiting not. We need it out here but how they? are seeing a benefit from this and it's hard. Yeah. It's myopic when I was in my twenties and I was one of these downtown apartment buildings. I never thought twice for second on when I flush toilet the process. Through that waste and get it all the way out. And Gone, you just don't think about it. This priority my is getting pissed lead. Well there's the liberties of the majority of the twenty year olds in Canada right now. But those are also the ones who were screaming on the streets and every protest, and so well, it's also an easy sell for them. If you go to somebody that doesn't care about energy and you say, okay, here, here's a choice. Do you want to get all your energy from the wind and the Sun or? Do you want to get from dirty fossil fuels. What are they gonNa say they and you tell them? No No, no, we can. It's the same thing. We it's just a matter of you choosing which one you want who isn't going to sign up for that one and that's because they don't understand the nuances behind and then that's a big battle. Yeah I have no good answers by the way about. Unless. There's there's no good answers for it I mean just maybe again, it's being a little more blanket. Of is like our Prime Minister for example, he would I. Think I believe he would be okay with the industry shutting down and he wouldn't even care because they'll just go into debt to make their payments for whatever public programs are well He. Ideolog, and come on. He's just not that sharp I. mean he he's one of those examples of people who really aren't looking. He's incapable of looking at a whole picture of something that nuanced I mean. You've got butts who his brain in the background who has. Always been an anti conventional energy ideologue and. I don't think Trudeau's deep enough to have an ideology just goes where he's pushed. US His vision is he wants to go down in history as somebody bigger than his dad. He wants he's looking for UN Global Glory. He wants to be a world leader. He'd only cares about yeah. Yeah that's as. Mandy I. Think Canadians are finally realizing that but still to be willing to change him out with anything that's got to put up somebody better to fight against hopefully. something. Will Complicate I. Mean it's just obviously we kept idea there's we've been working on this reluctant. Nor we look at. People shouldn't get to discourage about a note. I know there's Messaging in the media is relentless that people in the last election that people said, they want dramatic action on climate change which implies getting rid of the hydrocarbon. sector. Almost directly even if people don't mean that when they say that but then there's two two things that showed up which proved that's Kinda. They might be saying that but it just virtually tickling one is. Polls were done by the CBC even and in the US Reuters they both did polls and ask a bunch of citizens. How important is climate change you and something like seventy to eighty percents that yeah, it's important. Very important. Is it how much you're willing to spend do anything about it then ninety percent of Canadians wouldn't spend five hundred dollars or more and over over half wouldn't spend one hundred dollars here and It was the same in the state to same results. So people say one thing and they don't live that way. So and the second part is that when we look at Troodos Glory Hound I, think he is. But in the last election, fewer than twenty people voted twenty percent of people voted for the hard core Climate Movement, the Greens and the end EPA's so eighty percent of people rejected those dot platform so. So I mean it's interesting though with without again, it gets back to that what's in it for me and maybe we need to frame it better quit trying to get into the complicated discussion about how many petroleum products in the room but just show here's the price of this. With Green Energy. Here's the price of that with what we've got now, if you can even get it with green energy which you can. Yeah. In favor the fight to be honest. There's still going to be a fatal. Where are you are you? Are you familiar American Petroleum Institute? That's like no US version of CAP here. Okay. There are just totally partisan. They'll say if one political parties being stupid about something and. The. General there are a lot quieter to which I think. Maybe we can try that a little bit. We added. Advocacy who, who, who are you fighting I'm okay with Industry Association, blatantly coming out and supporting one political party. I'm totally with that or at least being more outspoken that's been something. That's a bit of disappointment with the associations to their almost apologetic when they come forward all the time to try you know we're sorry we're big bad demons but here's how we're getting better. Maybe stallone that's exactly what they do. One of them kiss my ass we aren't demons we're doing good stuff, and here it is get over it. It's easier said than done. It appears. My quote on Politics yes? Yes. Josh loves politics. Whatever I wallow. Again it is. So. This is a quote from David Foster, Wallace's last interview that he gave. Best Writer. Everson. Data as two thousand and three. So he was covering the US presidential campaigns or whatever's happening there. As of two thousand and three, the rhetoric of the enterprises fucked ninety, five percent of political commentary whether spoken or written is now polluted by the very politics, it's supposed to be about meaning it's become totally ideological and reductive. The writers slash speaker certain political convictions or affiliations proceeds to filter reality and spin all assertions according to these convictions and loyalties. Everyone's pissed off and exasperated impervious to argument from any other side. That's politics to me that that'll anyway listen. Here's what we have to. Okay. We're polarized. Is The righties half to start at. The start talking about legislating abortion. Because that that that rakes above building pipelines in terms of what these protesters you've got gotta get out of the people that protests the pipelines of the people that protest abortion by the way for the record. I'm anti Pearl Abortion or whatever it is. You don't want it sick you're you're pro. Pro a pilot. Along this I like from the Anorak is point of view. This. So if we were talking about abortion more. Or something like that. That sort of outranked the other things all the protests are just go focus on that and all the while we can get the pipelines built. So takes like that strat away their real give them another squirrel to look runaway at while they're pissing around that we can. Go but you know what? I'm saying if there was a law that somebody brought forward in the House of Commons saying we're GonNa make abortion illegal in Canada those guys would be got. Those pipeline blockade sites and they would be right not true enough. Well, you don't this. Song that did you know I? Didn't I like? We are coming up with ideas. Now things are practically We've seen a fair amount of pipe getting into the ground on the Trans. Mountain, finally without much noise, the pandemic is actually done. Oh you thinking those assholes that listen to this far into the podcast and you've already shut it off, smashed their their. Spirited. There's lots of stuff in the US that they're protesting but don't have time. Smash the cheaper somehow and and that's part of the that made his it's it's so entrenched now they like if. You try and be. I try sometimes I've tried to be. neutralist. In terms of describing energy like like when I meet when I say that I don't apologize for everything that the oil patch does you can't there's been some shitty stuff that's happened. There's bad operators bad stuff that's happened. We can be better but at the same time the this the reality of our world. So you try and you try and walk that tight tight rope and people are just sitting there waiting for you to say something which tilts you one way or the other, and then you get thrown in that bucket forever then your piece of shit conservative or you're looney lefty and that's the. Way It the way that the media spectrum works now, Rena is that way they're set setup to dump you in one or the other diagrams have disappeared? Yeah. There was actually a middle. And you can have your outliers. Somehow discourse. We've made progress though I mean I think as time to tie it off been going quite a while but we've had a couple of proposals but are giving back into the More open anything else. You know I've let me let. Bill before against or whatever it is. As the protesters over there and. We could get stuff done. We're at a stalemate anything right now is moving along. So I appreciate sitting down to discuss it though and hopefully. Other listeners. New ideas and thoughts they said. So important is just such a waste right now that we're shut in something so good. That the world is using anyways.