Mind Hunter: John Douglas /// Part 2 /// 446
Welcome to true crime garage wherever you are whatever you were doing. Thanks for listening. I'm your host. Nick and i say turkey for the girls and turkey for the boys. And here's a guy who's favorite kind of pants corduroys. Here's the captain. I really did like corduroy pants and high school. It's good to be seen as good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks tana friend you know what would be great with thanksgiving dinner. A little shot of whiskey with a refreshing lemonade shanty chaser. That's right baby today. We are still sipping on shady spot by our good friends over susquehanna brewing company. Ab four point five percent garage. Great four and a quarter bottle caps out of five. And let's start off with a big huge thank you to porsche and parts. Unknown big cheers to a mala in boise idaho. Next we have a nice contribution to this week's beer fund from frank and estelle cat stanza from del boca vista retirement community and las angeles cat. Stanza can't stand. And the big sal to allison and lead would new jersey. And here's a double cheers to jen. And m j at center caps direct. They are out in naqa. Nowhere which i believe is just one county from parts unknown so cheers to jen an mj and cheers to trigger it to this week's garage fridge. Fill up biran. Thank you guys so much for supporting the show this year. Big things happening as this is our last show. Big things are happening. Because we're we're quitting now just joking. Big things happening and two thousand and twenty one. And i hope two thousand and i hope everybody made it through two thousand and twenty and that is enough of the business all right. Everybody gather around. Grab a chair. Grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. We're continuing our discussion with john. Douglas retired fbi special agent. John douglas you know him from the behavioral science unit. You may know him from the wonderful show. Mind hunter picking up where we left off. We were discussing one of my favorite books law and disorder and in particular the west memphis. Three case mr douglas. Will you met mark buyers. There was a dramatic contrast to your meeting with terry hobbs. At first mark byers was put in not very welcoming to your conversation but he very quickly warmed up to you and then became very much an open book whereas terry put on the facade of being welcoming and interested in talking to you however as the conversation went along he became aggressive and became dodgy to your questions pay. Yeah he's very much word got out that he wanted to get. Have somebody Get rid of me. and Contract i me i mean killed but buyers you're exactly right. I when i sat on that porch. His hottest heck down there sweating and and he got angry as hell and his wife was there. and Initially started talking on the porch like an hour or so then. Finally i was invited into the house. And i spent hours on hours. You know you know. Within just assessing him and i mean i mean he's not the most stable person at that certainly but he's he didn't kill he didn't kill his. You know his his child a different feel to that. Have when i spoke when i spoke to terry And Initially spoke with matt a shopping center. I'm trying to gain trust. And then when i started gaining information on him and he got really pissed off at me when i we're able to track down years earlier How he broke into a house a neighbor's house and She was taking a shower and he tried to. Molester tried to molasses woman. He thought that record was purged and it wasn't available and so we had that he also shot his brother his brother in law and he was also extremely violent to his to his children. His son and his young son and daughter in to his to his His wife his his wife is a believer that the that he is responsible for that crime. But no one's really doing no one's really working it As far as they're concerned child they don't have to pay it off to pay any money to to Damon echols and jesse and jason baldwin. Any state money Because they had the played the all hell for plea and to this day there. They're sex offenders. These these three. I did a presentation with amanda knox and jesse miskelly about a year and a half ago up in up in new york and you could say we just took a chunk out of their lives. It's like they're it's like they're they're behind developmentally emotionally because of the time that they spent a period of time in our lives in in prison particularly Damon and and it was the saints with amanda the same same thing speaking of interviewing parents of victims and also parents that may be considered suspects. You were directly involved in the still unsolved homicide of six year old jon benet ramsey for those who are yet to read the cases. That haunt us. Can you explain how you became involved in the case. Yeah i was in I happened to be in utah at the time. Speak in a university when i got a call from investigative. Who's working on defense team. I didn't know who he was and Asked me if i would like to participate in In the investigation. And i and i told a colleague of mine have used to work in the unit i accepted and and i said this family is guilty in the back of my mind. I'm thinking you know they're guilty. Because what i was reading in the paper is what was being presented on on television. So i i go over and meet the the attorneys in denver in an old mansion. They have as a as an office and inside of what would be the living room. This is a closed encasement of a fiberglass room within the room and go in there some thinking back my mind and what are these guys going to do because like offer me money or something. I'm gonna pay me. I'll give them a rash of crap. Man walk right out on them but i got in there and and i sat down and they said john. We don't know we really don't know we don't know just so we don't think they did it but we we'd like you to take a look at what we have going present to you what we have and i said yeah i suppose you know And they argued a payment. Go to pay me. But the pay people think just became a millionaire fifteen hundred dollars. I spent a lot of time. I testified out there and everything Because once i realized i'm not working for i was working for victims wasn't working floor offenders. I was working for victims of violent crime who had been go who are now in the process of being victimized by being accused of killing a child but once i saw how how she was how she was murdered and the things that was done to her. That was wasn't all nate made public And and Ah parents kill believe me. We have had plenty of cases. Parents kill but not like this not like this. Not in this With this family this this type of family you know either They don't kill like like this so i did. You know i. I'd met with the family And actually First thing i did. I went to the house and kind of reenact reconstructed things to see where they were Their bedroom was was there was like an addict that was made into a master bedroom. And the children on the next floor down. And you can't hear anything with the air conditioning. Heating units going. You really can't hear anything if anyone who's down below you there But i looked at when a case like that. Okay you looking at a then. I'm looking at previous behavior. Post defense behavior. What's going on in their lives. And i didn't see anything pre offense behavior that it would that i was out of the ordinary or unusual christmas time. They're going to charlevoix michigan for the holidays. And i think they're gonna work out to disney disney world And i don't see anything there Now perpetrate the crime okay. The crime has been perpetrated. Let's take a look at that. And then i saw where the investigators asked John and a neighbor fleet would to take a look around anything out of the ordinary. Take a look downstairs in the basement. So they they go down there. Usually when a parent kills we found over the years that the parent the parent. Who did the killing. It won't be the one to find the body you'll get somebody else person with them or is it searching in the yard or something with a search or a search party they may. They are not going to be the one to find the child in this situation. Your fleet white goes down. John goes into this room checks. It's a it's a wine cellar but there's no wine as they don't even drink and their he finds his daughter. Well my god my baby. He he shouts out and She has tape over mouth or hands or overhead Tied together He doesn't know it yet but she is gherat it and He then picks her up carrizo upstairs. Laser down in the eventually and they. I guess it's been the the living room a of people up there. Everything's contaminated And trying to bring her back to life rubbing her body that's an rigor and A little bruce on her on her forehead so she has a bruise on our head. They should she has been garage the garage. She's been garage. Added piece of the paintbrushes used to to a handle to garage hard with rope at in this nylon rope that they never found where this real was the ramseys in having in finding other pieces of it They find a wood fibers from From a from the same paintbrush and their vaginal vaginal area choose been penetrated with the believe. Now with with that stick. That's how that that You know got there When they they start the autopsy and they remove the skull or the skin on the skull Surprisingly they find that the skull has been cracked open like a like a coconut like eight and a half inches in length. But why is there just a little red slight red mark on far head and my gosh to break his skull. you'd think it'd be kind of dima. It'd be swelling and blood and Well it's wise because the she was dead or on her last breath when when the person responsible wasn't satisfied enough with with the With with the death itself so he he does her in with wasn't necessary for the the kill she's already dead from from the The garage And so And then the letter the other thing is the letter. Correct the famous two and a half page letter and the fbi was against me. Have police hated me around the country. And you never saw two and a half page letter and yeah that's right. They're right about that however when with the letter have been written. It's the question you mean to tell me that after the the rain tell me the ramseys have been murdered. Now you're going to write a two and a half page letter The threatening letter asking for money and the money is coincides. Roughly to what a bonus that john ramsey have your in into this letter different different verses that are coming right out of movies at of movies like ransom and You have the presence of mind to you know to do something like that after after the crime. No yeah. so you're you're not. You're not gonna have the that kind of presence of mind so i just saw so many different different things and you know the bureau angry you know like i i may be. I like when i saw alex hunter talking before the public. We know you're out there we're going to be is more than one of you i. I knew that he was coached by without anyone telling me i mean i invented the stuff that he was being told by by the agents of of what to say. But i'm not telling the i'm not so telling the the the defense what they're doing here. What the what tactics. I'm not doing it. I would have loved to have been you know. Been able to solve that case if it was then just come up and get a confession out of him but that was not that was not the case and and there was a broken man. i. I'd met john several times And a broken. A broken man Patsy ramsey's stage. She was in remission. Cancer returned she dies. Everyone was waiting for a dying declaration. There was no dying declaration. She didn't kill her. Kill her daughter. John honest since remarried. Cbs comes out with a a tv. Show with the so-called fbi form agents expert s x purse in quotes and and Forensic experts and they and they come up with this theory more than a theory but at keke station at that that Burke ramsey is responsible for the The death i i was i was watching that. I'm thinking holy mackerel. You can't say something like that. I mean he burke is he's gonna say where he lives by. I come across him over the years. I mean he. He did not hit his sister accidentally. Or whatever On on purpose in fact if if the parents knew that they never would've allowed him to talk to the police alone without even the parents the parents in the presence of burke So that's another one of these cases where you know they. They what they did what they did. Nick is and you see. Sometimes on cases you let let a theory driving investigation and they let certain evidence that supports the theory in and they disallow some evidence. That doesn't fit the theory out. You know so. So they let nuts theory you know. Drive it and not being driven by evidence of any kind of forensic evidence whenever I witnessed testimony letting letting us theory And you know why because too because you had you didn't have a homicide investigative work in that case you have a drug investigator Working in our connex officer working in case and because they have so few cases they rotate them out. There in boulder and so the mindset of narcotics officer is different than a homicide officer. I'm not connex. Officer knows comes knows. You're dealing knows that you i know it's you i'm gonna make a case on you i'm gonna make you know on your. I'm going to build a case all around you and former whatever we're gonna get you well you get that mindset in a homicide case i know you did. I know the certain behavior patsy. When they brought the child up a passy was their fingers splayed. Across a face peeking through your eyes and all that other a nonsense stuff. No you let you. Let a let us theory. Drive your investigation you. You're into a narcotics investigation mindset not a homicide investigators and that's why who's the investigators from colorado springs loose smith. Yeah that's what. I was to say as soon as you are. Brought in to take a look at the case and soon as the famous homicide detective the late. Great loose smit is brought in to take a look at the case. The two of you separately come up with very similar conclusions. It's the famous loose loose-knit intruder theory. When i when when i testified for the grand jury and then He has he's testified. I guess before. I did some different day. I testified Afterwards they said that loose-knit wanted to speak with me and over in colorado springs. Great guy really. Great guy and So they drove me over there and I knock on his door and he comes to the door and he said introduce ourselves. Johnny said i don't know how you did. It took me ten months ten months. You came up with this in four days. Four five days whatever wherever was and he says. And you didn't see everything. As and i've got everything i got everything here. I i'd like to go through the case of powerpoint presentation and with you so it'd be great so i went down in his basement. He went through the whole case and even everything but things. I didn't see i just i. I just Certain had to make assumptions Ah everything i just fit and then they will coming out that you know that That and myself that the family was religious. Like that we were were being pulled into the ramseys because of Our fate because of faith. And now w- we've been investigators of all types and we'll we'll arrest religious people don't don't You don't care but but we don't like your wrongful convictions. And and destroying the lives of you know of of people. i mean. it's terrible to lose your child but now to be to be accused of killing Killing your child and and and that's when you get into nick. They like social media where it can be dangerous. Lot of social media can be good where you can develop help and actually can help law enforcement with leads people discussion and there's been some websites been very very successful but they got others which can totally could jeopardize investing investigation and shape the attitude of of people right after that to. I'm on a train going up to new york and and there's a guy in front of me and this is after i did in a now now some back and and and on the night of the was like the head on the night of the crime passy was with was without her lover. And i'm seeing. What so. I wanna get to new york. I was was passing having an affair with some guy. You just not telling me what are you talking about. And i said this guy but it's one of these rag tabloid things. I saw this on. Now it's garbage garbage can see how people see that kind of crap you know and and and and start believing you start believing in it and you can't you can't sway their their their opinion at all. There's almost always a rise in break ins during the holidays. That's why simplisafe home security is having a huge sale forty percent off any simplisafe system and a free security camera recently. Us news and world report called the best home. 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But it's not high quality get forty percent off simply safe plus a free security camera today by visiting simplisafe dot com slash karaj co today that simplisafe dot com slash garage simply safe dot com slash g. a. r. a. g. e. protect yourself and protect your loved ones with simplisafe. Do you think we will ever know who killed jonbenet. I hope so. I mean i don't hear things of yeah if they brought. I had some good suspect. They had one good suspect there. They had several. I mean The place was full of a sex offender all around the areas. Where we're patsy john. We're living there but then there was one guy who who committed suicide He had access to stun gun. See the police. Discount that slew smit when over. The stun gun showed me. They did test with a medical doctor on pigs Using a stun gun showing the mocked similarities. Here i mean hopefully you know. Dna familial dna or something. We'll you know we'll solve that that case one day but i don't know if they're they're working and i hear once in a while here like a new attorney general come in we're gonna take a new look at the case of the the a prosecutor wants to take a look at the case but you know hopefully i mean It can look at the golden state case. I mean after all these years. I mean we worked at case the you know i just worked i worked one was the east area rapist. Rapes that that he was he was doing and We didn't wasn't responsible. Just dna dna got him was after so many years. I police officer was responsible. We're all very excited for the release of your new book. The killer's shadow the fbi's hunt for a white supremacist serial killer. Can you tell us a little bit about your latest book. This is a different kind of serial killer and it was a case that The first case that the bureau would give me only because they've of supervisor on the civil rights division Squad up at headquarters knew we knew each other from milwaukee division around the same swat team together and i. He knew i was doing this. Research on serial murders and going into prisons and he calls me. see if i could be Be of help so this would be different nick. This would not be a profile so much as it would be an assessment So you got to kind of do your l. show years ago is called. This is your life you know and And they would do his background of a puddle background guy so i would go up to headquarters and And there was a lot of pressure because my screw this thing. I'm just starting to get going here. And now that not. Everyone is supportive within the organization of me doing any of this. This research They just don't understand. You know what the purpose of it is even though we're helping local police on the later international police departments here so so the assessment is is that the the latest thing with franklin is is that he's linked to over twenty homicides. He traveled he's he's prolific bankrobber unlike serial killers a particular comfort zone for the crimes. This guy is all over the place. He's all over the map He's a bomber some of those cases embalming He is a bank bank robber prolific. Bank robber He is a turns out to be an excellent shot with a rifle In in in fact you actually shot with only one. I because when he as a youth he lost the side of is In his right high in an accident people say it's said it was a bicycle now isn't a bicycle accident. It was a shade and all window shade with a spring inside things. Playing with his brother in the spring came out. pop them right in the eye. Mother took him to the hospital. A mother who extremely abusive to him a father extremely again very abusive him and his brothers and sisters mother takes him to the hospital. The doctor says can't do anything right now. Is this temporary but bringing back a couple of months we'll do. Some surgery will make as good as new. She doesn't do that. She doesn't take them back as a young child to the hospital. The ends up losing his sight and even A way to overcompensate. The loss was site is to be an excellent shot. He wanted to be a police officer to another one and said oh another guy who wants to be an officer and When when he hurts to a neighbor who was a police officer that he couldn't join because of the loss of a one i he extremely angry and bitter towards towards his mother hated paid his mother and his father. That's why he would he would. He would change his name to joseph. His name was james. Von would change his name to joseph paul paul franklin and then He then was gravitated to these Take aka a different. These radical hate groups american nazi party passing out literature. Today he would have a field day with the internet access But then what he realized was because he was paranoid that these organizations were pretty much Infiltrated by fbi. Fbi informants keeping tabs on them on these organizations back there back then and they were primarily talking the talk but not walking the walk and he got became frustrated and decided go out on his own and and the so-called birth of the the lone wolf lone wolf Criminal and it just started by paling. Interracial couples i and it was up in maryland. He makes them. But then that was after the nasc- then i that was the last time it used as from then on in he would It would shock using various firearms. He he shot Larry flint the of a slip Hustle magazine he shot. He shot him he shot vernon jordan Civil rights leader At at the time he wrote a threatening letter to to jimmy carter. Secret service was When he wasn't identified yet was was trying to figure out. You know who done it. So what i said was with him that the long and short of it is i came up in the suspect predicted where he would go in the in the country and that would be now now that he's a fugitive. He's a top ten Yeah he committed these crimes all around these other areas. But he's gonna be homing pigeon now. He's going back to mobile. It's going back to mobile and to florida. He may not be robbing banks. Because we'll have a lot of these banks be notified staked out and But the teletype then was teletype s- Was an internet. Tell teletype goes out. He's spotted in mobile alabama agent. Charge of the office calls me and wants to know the name of the bank or savings alone. I think this guy is going to be robbing. I said watch i. i can't. I don't know i didn't even know city was in. I i tell you what cities and so he was there. spotted him surveillance cameron blood bank and then they Passed out flyers on through all these different blood banks and in the deep south out in florida. And that's where he would be. You'd be spotted in a blood bank so Got him their coach deal. They'll say they'll coach the the agent on the interview a little bit But then i got to interview him Later on in the late eighties ninety ninety ish with with Secret service agent. You would have thought nick secret. Service would have had a behavioral science unit Over the years they did not have a unit like we they. They had not done research like we were doing with violent crimes At all and so. I did a couple of cases. Four secret service over the years that turned out pretty and so then they sent down a guy. Great great guy passed away Ken baker secret service and and we conducted some research on assassin interview. Squeaky fromm who shot four sara. Jane moore shot forward or at the bremmer. Who shot george wallace. James earl ray schalk. Dr martin luther luther king and other assassination style of killings. And that's why we interviewed frankly because he had fascination style of killing and The problem is is that and we come up with this killer. Shadows that to this day. He still casts a shadow along shadow Because there are others like amount. There is nice executed two thousand and thirteen but There are others who that law enforcement come across now and then who Are emulating people. You know like him who who are being influenced today not so much like the old days where would be in some some hall room. We're meeting or somebody someone's basement. Now it's on the internet where you can have Have hundreds and hundreds of sites these Racist sites antisemitic sites. Where where someone can gravitate to that and not everyone will go out and perpetrate acts of violence. But but someone may in someone will. We'll see that and and take action like a you know like this joseph paul franklin character. So it's and so it's much more difficult today to investigate them. In the old days you had an organization now you have you have someone who could be influencing others. But it's not they're not tied into there's no hierarchy. There's no leader and soldiers. You know that candidates organized crime. Even you don't have you know. Have anything like that. So it makes it extremely difficult for law enforcement and law enforcement. Resources are very skimpy particularly after nine. Eleven emphasis was on Was on international terrorism the d. emphasis on 'cause resources on domestic domestic terrorism. So it's you. It's not over heels. They'll be others other cases on which You know hopefully we can what we can rely on information from the public when they see someone who's becoming obsessed with with hatred and antisemitic anti everything or african americans and it's becoming obsessed with weapons and other maybe weapons of destruction Law enforcement can't be everywhere at every time so they rely on public information from anonymous sources. That that's what they need to follow up leads to see if this person you know if they can will carry out a You know this is a violent act. Kind of like a school shooter. I mean you have certain indicators but you can't always predict for hundred percent you can interact interest intercede it and Take some action family or and give this person counseling or whatever but it's very very difficult very difficult for law enforcement so they so that's what they'll see in this book they'll see the evolution of him. How and kind of like the the Sonny bono in share the beat goes on and the beat goes on. They'll it'll be more. Unfortunately they'll be more probably a cases like this in the future. mr douglas. thank you again for your time today and for doing the interview. You've been more than generous with us here in the garage. Actually have me about and we're working on another one for next year next year. we'll be doing one. They want us to do. Like kinda like an an rule thing like one case that case. I've worked or maybe case to take a look at you know a new case Investigate trying to come up with a solution or so. How many back. As soon as you're done with this next book we'd love to have you back. Thank you so much enjoyed. Keep up the good work. Thank you mr douglas for joining us in the garage. Rob thank you so much for joining us here in the garage. Let him to be a part of your week us. Be a part of your holidays colonel. Do we have recommended reading this week. We have a lot to recommend today first off the true crime garage. Every single episode archive is available for your listening pleasure when you download the free stitcher listening app on your device. That's right over. Four hundred and forty episodes to listen to for free including the last time mr john. Douglas was on the show back in may of two thousand and nineteen in the john. Douglas mind hunter episode number three. Oh to also we will be recommending a batch of john douglas's books. We recommended the killer's shadow last week. And you heard us reference in our discussion this week. Some of his other great books including the cases that haunt us law and disorder and the killer of the table we will have all of those great titles listed on our recommended page at true crime. Garage dot com. Here's us wishing all of you and yours of very safe and happy thanksgiving be good. Be thankful and please don't let simplisafe home. Security is having a huge sale forty percent off any simplisafe system and a free security camera. The system has arsenault of sensors and cameras. That protect every inch of your home and you could set it up yourself in just about thirty minutes. Give forty percent off simplisafe plus a free security camera today by visiting simplisafe dot com slash garage that simplisafe dot com slash garage. Protect yourself protect your loved ones with simplisafe.