Who Would Win Buffy vs. Leonardo
Slayers have to go to all manner of locations in their quest to destroy mystical evil. It was well below. Oh ground that buffy summers found herself on this day. She was prepared for the unexpected at every turn but the faint sound seemed very out of place was that that was that a pizza party. She turned a corner to track the noise and stumbled into the layer of the teenage. Mutant ninja turtles currently occupied applied by one leonardo leo without any time to think about the predicament grabs his sword that prepares to repel the intruder to his domain sleigh master general versus the blue students. It's sunny dale girl versus the radical uis spawn and loppy versus leonardo toned episode of who would win a show that completely ignores anything important happening in the world and instead focuses on a fictional battle between two characters from the world of comic sci fi and fantasy. I'm your host james gab sie and as always i'm joined by my co host race kanus ray. Today's battle is really intriguing. You'll really fascinating one when we put this together and this sometimes you come up with battles. Sometimes i come up with battles but often there's a back and fourth around it. This is very much a fifty fifty down the middle. You wanted to do leonardo. I wanted to do buffy. We said let's put them together here. We are almost feel bad putting these two characters together researching you know i got. I know a lot more about leonardo than it did about buffy the vampire slayer but then when i started doing my research she's an amazing character. Fantastic really really good has so much going for a series very very fun to watch. I'm kind of torn. I know i'm represent leonardo but i gotta tell you bobby. The vampire slayer is pretty awesome and i hope you feel terrible about opposing buffy the vampire slayer because when you deserve it and two it might make a little weakness in your argument because you may be psychologically. Don't wanna win this battle and that allow me to just drive it home well. Here's the thing i kind of thought what about this and how would buffy feel about being represented by race. Decanes should be a big fan. I have to believe i gotta think she she wouldn't. Luckily we have someone on the podcast today as a judge. It's someone who i hope so because we have. We need a judge to do this. Show the genius canes but this is someone who knows ray really really well. I'm a big fan of hers. Let me just introduce. This is the one the only gina little one of the amazing cast members of the cast of knowing is half the podcast gina. Thank you for being on the show. Thank you for having me. We know you from your era very compensator. You've written for murphy brown correct show and your new show unicorn on c._b._s. Is coming out very soon to is that correct yes. That's correct september twenty sixth very nice okay and i don't oh no you felt your the right around thirty thursday september twenty six. I feel like that's what comes out. We're g._m. Deeply raven owns a television. No i just assume that the inside of raise head is like one of those little monkeys banging a drum. All the time in any external noise is filtered out. I believe there are many big like cat scans went public so i'm a little unnerved right now jeanette more importantly than than raise mental health <hes>. Let's talk about the somethings that yeah. I know i talk about something. That's really really impressive even more impressive in my opinion then you're impressive <hes> writing resume. You wrote a graphic novel. Oh i did and and can you tell us about it. I know it's called babe. Squad looks amazing tells about babe squad and where people can find it. Babe squad is a teenage mutant. Ninja turtles was crossed with sex and the city. It sounds like an obvious matched by the way yeah yeah the the classic mash up a no one ever knew they wanted are you. Are you like nervous because that that mashups been done so many times before up to this. We had to find a brand new. Take on it because it's well trod territory it's like are you carry early nardo. Ask themselves that every day yeah jokes on you because they serve the same purpose in their friend groups the real. You should be asking yourself. Are you a leonardo or are you a maranda. Oh i'm definitely miranda yeah i would agree with that yeah through it's about four struggling supermodels who get thrown from the highest cat that walking into a vat of radioactive furs and they when they wake up they are mutated and become half mutant half hot supermodel crimefighters. I am fighters aided by the help of their sense. Say carol who's an old drug addict alcoholic ex model who is also have toilet on the bottom what the hair there you go. Supermodel fused with toilet supermodel. Thee's a toy. That's the unique take. She's an alcoholic comes in handy because she can frequently throw up into her own bowl so this is clearly a you know a kids comic book named for young twins. Don't don't don't buy it it for little kids can buy it on amazon on target dot com barnes and noble dot com. It's like there's a slew of other sites that i'm forgetting some that i've never heard it'd probably just do tight babe squad into your goggles and then just hit the shopping tab and buy one from each. There's actually a question that the masses have been asking me ugh. I kind of let it slip not very often. We have someone with your the right. Word is magnificence presence. Resume the question everyone keeps asking asking is. Why do you do a podcast with ray. I've been getting asked that a lot in the two or three or ninety years since knowing is half the podcast casts started. I'm not sure how long it's been. How do you answer that because this is news to me. I usually say who's ray because as soon as i leave podcasting thing i erased from my memory banks. I think that's the healthiest thing you could do. I tried to read body. Language in ray looks very comfortable right now. Gina it looks it's like you are like sitting on a mound of termites. If lava was coming at you full speed i'm not saying you're uncomfortable but there's nothing that says comfortable comfortable about what you're going through right now. Am i reading you correctly. Yes absolutely when you have a titanic battle such as leonardo versus buffy. I can't imagine any judge. Judge wouldn't feel the pressure of having to determine such titanic matchup so babe squads available at stores everywhere. I look at my watch well. It's about that time. It's about about that time. Ray please do us the honors in today's matchup representing the jaw sweden multi-diverse the slayer who lives the song song another one bites the dust buffy and representing a multitude of comic universe is the turtle who proves that being blue is less easy than being green leonardo. Well done ray now before we go any further. Let's go over the official rules of who would win. Match now rule number one east to bed. We'll i'll be able to make three points. We'll number two the who had matched the random encounter in a neutral location with neither combatant necessarily knowing anything about their opponent or having any time to prepare for it ruled. That's that's right. These are these are official rules gina. This is a real again rule number three the exact version of the character has to be specifically stated now ray which version of up here you use. I'm going to ask you first. Which version of leonardo are you using certa best one. Which is the best one. I'm actually going to use the believe i._d. Ws current iteration ration- of leonardo from their teenage mutant ninja turtles title because i'm gonna stop you right there because i don't believe for a second. You're actually going to hold yourself to just the i._d. W you version because there are different versions of leonardo teenage mutant ninja turtle comic books out there. Are you sure you're not gonna spend a little bit because i know you and start pulling from other of the branches well. I can give you my word well okay. I know you can barely read so how would you be able to figure out if i was using another version of of a leonardo oppo research james gabsi okay so it'd be using the character of buffy the vampire slayer but which version well. It's basically you all you've said this before when we did the he man versus lobo debate and since you're going to be using every version of leonardo from comic books i'm going to be choosing to do the tv version as well as the comic version because essentially it's the same character one built off the mythos of the other and you've done this before so i will to the bitterness. I mean that's i will say that's accurate. Your adjust weeden considers the comic book the next season of buffy. I will say my favorite. Leonardo is the nintendo version and leonardo. That is the best one the midway fame arcade game than here's the deal gina you have the power. You're the judge we should. I don't wanna make you feel any more comfortable than you. Already are big. I just saw you look over at rae twice and then look away really fast. I'm not saying he threw up a little bit in your mouth but and let's face it. I'm very majestic and my presence is so fantastic. I can appreciate not wanting to look to close at the son clips glasses <hes> somewhere if we need them rule number four winner of the who'd went debate is a member of the judge decides that the best ability to incapacitate their opponent to the degree where they can safely walk away with no further threat being present this includes completely destroying their opponent removing it from the field of battle restraining them or knocking them out would went battle-torn not necessarily death matches. We'll number five live the judge that's eugene disallow veto point. Maybe one of the debaters if they feel it goes outside the scope of the battle or is irrelevant to the fight last but not least rule number six each debater peter must use examples of powers abilities or weapons that are part of the specific characters continuity or at least was with that character for good deal of time one off examples of powers are billy's ever a us only once in the characters history will not be allowed and now let's get to the tale of the tape for both of our combatants. Today's tell the tape is brought to you by t-shirts acceptable. Imitations find all the official so who wins shirts on amazon by typing hashtag who would win ray. Please give us the details on buffy buffy. Summers is a high school student who discovered that it is her fate to be a slayer earlier and that she has been gifted with all the abilities necessary to hunt vampires buffy was created by joss weeden and first appeared in the movie buffy the vampire slayer in nineteen eighteen ninety two five years after the movie weeden create an acclaimed tv series based on the same character that lasted for seven seasons and launched the character into the massive the popularity she enjoys to this day as a slayer buffy was gifted with the heart of a demon which grants her superhuman physical abilities as well as innate advanced advanced skills and also the knowledge of the experiences of all the slayers who came before her which means that a nutshell she has superhuman strength speed agility durability and these eight hundred fight against supernatural enemies that she typically faces the most common of which being of course vampires fun fact on the t._v. Series sarah michelle galar car was almost cast in a totally separate role on the show. Yes the original idea was to have galore play the role of cordelia with actor charisma carpenter playing buffy however over the network suggested that the two actors flip roles and that's how we ended up getting the iconic portrayals that we know today that is buffy the vampire slayer and here the details for leonardo now leonardo along the rest of the teenage mutant ninja turtles first appeared on comic book published by mirage studios in nineteen eighty four and the character was actually created by kevin eastman. Eh peter laird the teenage mutant ninja turtles start off as a lab experiment and when the lab was attacked by the evil foot clan in order to steal some of the news the turtles as well as a rat splinter were knocked walked out the window of the lab and onto open tank of the uis causing them to become humanoid and intelligent much like race to kansas leonardo's the eldest brother and the leader of the group of turtles. He's the most skilled the the most serious the most spiritual the most disciplined and the most in line with splinters teachings and thoughts leonardo is also the most committed to his duties of taking down the foot clan and serves as leader of the turtles he trains raines diligently and is an excellent titian and here's an interesting fact about leonardo. Did you know that leonardo's iconex towards are not actually atanas is true many fans writers. There's an even some producers of the various iterations of the teenage mutant ninja turtles thought that leonardo carries around two catanha sorts however catanha's are the sort of a samurai and since leonardo is a ninja his trademark trademarks oars are actually ninja toes which are the preferred sort of the sh- novi also known as digits and now you have the facts on both opponents gina. Do you have any questions before we get started. The the version of leonardo that i am familiar with is is i guess maybe from the movie where splinter is a human who touches the gets turned into a rat. That's the cartoon series. He's <hes> most famously it's oh i think it's it might also be the movie. No i think yeah there's so many iterations of it. That's the problem with the character to write for yeah but i did not think about is an agenda because i feel like he says that in one of the movies also feel like ray gave some spoilers about the buffy. The vampire ars layer series but that's okay one point. I'm not one who was opposed to character and the things they've done without ruling something. At some point i would say yeah that's true. Hopefully everyone watched every iteration of teenage ninja turtles and every single season of buffy the vampire slayer. Haven't i mean what's wrong with you. Go get on it. Yeah okay greg is point number. One place why point number one for buffy the vampire slayer. I want to just start talking about the weaponry that she uses because she has a signature weapon weapon known as the size and the side is what she uses to hunt vampires but i think it very much pairs well with fighting against the iconic teenage mutant ninja turtles first in foremost oh. She is a very acclaimed hand to hand fighter. She's known for using improvised weapons of all kinds and if she has the ability much like a jason bourne type character to to grab whatever's around her in the moment i've seen her pickup logs and sticks and just jam them into the vampire's causing them to turn to dust on the t._v. Show there are definitely moments of that. It happens a feat that i have right here. I'll just bring up now. Buffy was attacked by six vampires at the same time unarmed and she ended up killing all six of them in thirty seconds. This is the type of ridiculous combat abilities that she gained what she became a slayer and she <hes> got some of the the memories and what have you don't even know what taskmaster her. She doesn't even know what she's doing until she's about to do it and she can tap into that happens a lot in the comic books first and foremost is she doesn't know why but she knows that she's doing it and she knows that she's crushing. People talk about the side for example. The side is a two sided weapon. One side is a very it's almost like an axe than the other side is a a wooden stake that is extremely powerful extremely durable and extremely competent in cracking really really hard things that will come in handy here. Let's talk about the pokey side for a sec she had term. I believe that's how i refer to it. There is a class vampires called the terrific han and these are kind of like the elite vampires. The toughest of the tough regular stakes won't even pierce through their bodies and their bones are just so so tough so difficult to pierce when she uses the side. It's powerful enough in its mystical enough that it can puncture through them and caused them to turn to dust whereas a normal stake would not work uh-huh where else would a device such as that come in handy. Oh i know attacking someone with shell protecting them so hitting them from the front hitting it from the back. One hundred percent believe believe that the pokey side of the five is definitely strong enough to pierce the turtle shell and caused major damage to leonardo in a battle such as this the other side the hockey side or the act side. I it's it's really anyway works. It can absolutely be used to fight swords. She's done it before in the past fighting against people who we'll have all manner of swords and stabs and what have you and she's been able to cut through metal with others an example from the comic books that i pulled here where there alongside an armored car and and she's able to take the size and rip open the side of an armored car so she's able to cut through very very powerful indeed metal with the side again. I just don't think that the swords of leonardo with we get into a two swords or one sword. What have you versus the side. I think the side is just too powerful a weapon for any kind of not catanha that leonardo is going to be bringing onto the table in this battle if they to hit instead of the two swords hit each other. I think it is getting broken right there and then it's going to be cut right through not to mention the fact that the t._v. show at one point buffy took a regular sword and she snapped it over her knee breaking it in half she has ability to deal with a swordsman and no question at all the other thing that i'll mention right here is some of the innate training she sparring off with her watcher named rupert giles and he had been trained in a quarter staff since he was a little kid so he has a lifetime of training in this weapon buffy when being given the training of the of the slayers with rupert burp she ends up fighting says i'm gonna take it easy on you a little bit. I've been training since birth. You'd literally just got the staff because of the abilities that she gets imbued with as being a slayer she picks up the staff at immediately beats the heck out of him with it even though it's his weapon of choice even though he's been training with for a very long time another fact i think will come in handy against a leonardo character is the fact that she can match great artistry with weapons even if she's never picked it up before in her life that helps her sword play all all of that combined. That's my point number one gena before i say anything. What are your thoughts on his point. Everyone these these are actually these are some good points. He's relying heavily on the final final season of buffy and the end the comic books which threw me off a little bit at first but then when i realized what he was doing and what he was talking about he is right that the the weapon that she picks up in the finale is pretty damn powerful so he made some good points. I can't disagree with anything. He said again buffy well why wouldn't know truth. It's all true. Actually it is and buffy is incredible character. There's only one thing i'm gonna throw in there and this is more on the t._v. Show i love watching fighting styles and how the stunt performers dues all of their find especially when it comes to weapons work. What's a stunt performer stunt performer. Don't actors have to do all their own stunts. Tom cruise taught me the he's he has. The power of the scientology god's inside him. Oh well not everybody has wounded. Oh i take it all back. Keep going james sure no problem that guy who helped you into as the dumpster to get that half eaten big mac tom cruise. I wasn't tom cruise that was tom cruise told me this is why i put up with gina. I'm telling you it's crazy so here's the deal the site that she uses his actually. It's it's a heavy weapon so what i saw her doing the show which is actually highly accurate she'd have to kind of swing it once possibly even twice a crate that momentum to kind of come down with it on people when she's swelling at once who was that i think it was early season. There was that priests the evil priest. That's a late season that was nathan fillion. Nathan billion okay so there you go shows my show but which is unforgivable by the way because it's awesome but he caught it remember of times during their fight and the only time he couldn't catch is when she actually took a minute to kind of swing it. I kind of a loaded up and then go. That's just kind of a weird point but it's something that i will bring up later on now other other than that. I've got nothing to argue against. What ray brought up. Okay okay so let me go to my point number one and this. You may find a little controversial but i'm standing by called fighting skills. Okay okay. There's no other way than saying that that buffy is an amazing fighter absolutely she's taken on and taken out vampires demons which is and even other like really powerful called slayers right vampire slayers. Yes okay so she's not all that but when it comes to fighting here's the thing i have to explain this to ray in slowly by the way so can keep up there are levels and exactly there are levels and then there are levels okay so in researching both characters. I discovered that although buffy dedicates herself up to being the elite vampire slayer leonardo dedicates himself to being the elite ninja and that's a slight difference so for him to accomplish what he wants to do. He goes through his philosophical trae like who he is himself to get their her deal is not to be the best fighter is to be the most effective of what she does right which in certain ways would actually make her more suited for battle than leonardo but possibly not be perfectly help in a one random encounter when it comes to buffy fighting adding. She's like a strong nine out of ten. Maybe a nine point five scott incredible skill. She's got the ability to tap into that experience and knowledge of past and i believe future slayers ears as well and again. I'm i'm super impressed with how they created buffy and her overall character. She's absolutely incredible but bobby's nine point five then again leonardo's attend. Here's why he's he's demonstrated especially in the i._d. W comic books insane fighting proficiency and this was best demonstrated when he took on batman there was a batman and teenage mutant ninja turtles this crossover vent three of them and one time you know this is after they had initial fight and they all became friends which typically happens there in the back cave and batman and leonardo perspiring and splinters kinda overseeing it and split. It tells you noticed says out loud here. Watch out for him taking you down. That man says don't worry. I'll go easy easy on leonardo and under snow is actually talking to leonardo with which leonardo take down batman which is insanely impressive now. It's nothing against vampires empires which is demons and other slayers but you gotta remember this batman. A completely different type of fighter in batman has really impressed and things like hey this could be we like kind of i think this could be another robin or another protege of types out of all the turtles that would be the person i really wanna. Bring under my wing again. Let's talk about her weapon when she uses it. She's got to get a lot of momentum going to swing that site right and i saw that a number of times. It's still very impressive but she's got a ramp up to get speed. How fast you think leonardo auto is with his double swords right and i'm gonna get into this as well so he's fighting speed with a swords. He doesn't need to whip him around twice. Gill they're very light especially for him because he i also has super strength and super speed super agility so when it comes to counter hate to say it i really hate to say it but in terms of pure fighting skill the edge slightly goes to leonardo ardo. That's my point number one well. If you hate to say it so much. Don't say it especially when it's not true just like it is not a couple of things to say about here. You know i love. The james starts out and he says well. I'm a man of principle of honor. I'm only going to use the i._d. W version of leonardo and then immediately he's talking about an animated movie crossover with batman. It did not take place in the i._t. Double uterus incorrect did i know there is a batman crossover event latino as an animated movie that was actually based off the comic book series. I i just <hes> let me check if batman i w character no he's not. He's a dc character. So what are we even talking about this this is this is the nonsense inside his race so there's actually comic books with end leonardo fighting. Let's talk about since we're apparently as i as i knew you would apparently talking about all the different versions of leonardo. Let's talk about all the different versions of leonardo. Did you know that in other fights with leonardo he lost a one on one battle with rafael who is using size size size versus swords and he defeated leonardo any roughed him up real good and threw him out a window. Okay when dealing with the foot clan he is often defeated by small numbers of the foot clan three three four of these special throwaway ninja we talked about i._d. W towards talking about leonardo the image version of leonardo since you're talking about batman the europeans are reasonably in ardo got his hand cut off. He's so proficient in battle. He fought guy who cut off his hand but in the michael bay version they gave him and hideous muscles they did and they all of the media's facial expressions that were really like awkward kidnapped and defeated by a handful of foot clan members taken back to their base where he was brainwashed into becoming the defacto leader of the foot clan and turned evil because you talk about how spiritual he is apparently he's not spiritual enough because because through a little bit of light brainwashing they're able to turn him evil so as far as i'm so happy to goes. This is the w version the version you claim to be arguing. This guy is is not mentally strong. You cannot argue awfully buffy is not mentally strong. Okay buffy as mentally strong. I'm so glad that she never turned to the dark side or over got influenced by dark uh-huh that's right. She did big difference between getting hit by a demon or an elder vampire and a couple of ninjas with a boom box and an eyedropper. That's all i'm trying to say threader threader all right gene-o. Would you like to hear point number two or would you like the verbal diarrhea of radio literally screwing everywhere. What would you what would you. I would like point number two there you go. I have more diarrhea okay. I'll do point number two point number two. We're going to talk about the enhanced senses of buffy and this is where she is going to be you a cut above leonardo for a variety of reasons first off. She hasn't innate danger sense if something's about to attack her. She knows if something's about to pop out at her. She knows there's a moment where she's walking down the street by herself late at night on the t._v. Show and after walking shoes like looking like something's something's up. She just stops obstinate tracks and she says okay guys. I really don't have time for this nonsense. If you're going to come out and do something come out and do something. I don't want to deal with this. Three vampires just pop out of literally the nowhere one just kind of drops literally from the sky. I have no idea where he came from and be. She knew that they were there. In other instances people have attacked her shot arrows at her and what have you and she's been able to innately dodge or catch those things out of mid air even if she did not see it coming so one thing leonardo over the course of this entire battle is not not going to be able to do is get the drop honor and i know that he is an asia and he's trained in ninja skills and often they like to hide in the shadows even though he's a monster with giant shell on his back. I'm not sure how he would be able to pull that off but if he tries to do ninja stuff but he's got the skills and the tools to shut that down right there and make sure that it's an even even fight in addition to that we can talk about long range for a moment because buffy has shown proficiency in shooting a crossbow and even though she doesn't like guns she has used guns leonardo on the other flip of the coin has never to my knowledge shown proficiency with long range weapons ed detests guns so as far as the idea of using them in a battle like this. This buffy wouldn't like it. Leonardo would flat out not do it but if buffy takes a shot buffy gonna hit the shot the other thing. We're gonna talk about right. Now is hearing and i think that the the of the five senses hearing and sight are very important things to fighting. Would you agree with that. James that fighting and hearing would be if you want to see and hear things went involved in a combat situation. You could ask daredevil about that but yeah sure. Let's go absolutely he will. He creates his own version of sight but let's talk about sight and hearing for moment because buffy has an enhanced senses of she has enhanced install five cents is from being a slayer so one thing that she has his super hearing there's examples of the comic book of standing on a building and hearing from like way over on the other side of of the area korea somebody getting mugged in an alley which superman could hear that but a normal person wouldn't buffy has that sense of hearing one thing that i looked up here. Did you know gina that turtles lack lack air drums. I feel like i've never seen a turtle with really big years. They do not have them so a turtle and back me up. Leonardo is a turtle who was mutated. I choose to to grow big and become a ninja. He begins by lacking eardrums which means turtles have the ability to sense vibrations and hear things through that much like someone who is deaf f. would but leonardo lacks very very good hearing by because he is a turtle buffy super enhanced hearing so if it comes down to kind of a stealth battle title where one is trying to come at it the other from act stab like a rogue dungeons and dragons buffy would be able to pull this off because of her enhanced senses leonardo has weakened senses is in would not be able to do it. I think that's a big deal. I did research on science for this. That is my point number. Two is that what your head's hurting complaining like my head really hurts and he's that was at the deal for those migraine pills by the way science winstone vitamins deny any any thoughts on what you just feel like taste east is very important in fighting. You really want to be able to taste your food before a big fight like if you sit down to a big bowl of pasta you're like <hes> this is really good. It's so good now. I'm gonna go out and fight but if it's like it's like i can't really taste this. You lose all your motivation to fight. That's right sousse at that point. I like that point of normally eat large bowls of pasta before coming over here speaking to you. You're using your super sense of smell right now to <hes> detect the aroma of raise correct. That's correct okay. Let me kind of smells like diet soda and sadness a little bit of despair right right and just a little bit okay so let me let me kind of puts them in there so i agree. I don't think this is going to be a stealth battle. I mean every if you know try to sneak backup on buffy. It's bob. You'll be like blase. Really cool acknowledged that leonardo's in the shadows on our own. Come out and say okay cool. Let's go and i really think that's a great. It makes complete sense if anyone should have that innate danger sense. It's her so i and i agree but here's the thing you could just like. Spiderman has spider sense. It doesn't mean he actually gets out of the way it might help them understand. Something's coming at them but there's this great panel like we're spiderman is getting hit by the hulk and he's like my spider senses tingling as he's getting hit by the hulk repeatedly league like yep still feeling danger yeah there. It is yet still feeling there. It is getting smashed debate so it only goes so far but it's a good thing. He's not fighting spiderman today. What are we talking about right. Now allies ray. Have you lookin mary of okay so am i know. Here's the one thing where you're mistaken. Leonardo does use long range weapons. He uses the throwing serve the shriek into and he's done that before in the idea w version by the way that i'm arguing. He's actually thrown successfully throwing stars in because if he was throwing them unsuccessfully. This is the terrible points on your behalf. I mean i could throw a circuit unsuccessfully. That doesn't make me a killer in battle. Is this your body. Language is saying like eat me some fries for mcdonald's donald god. I do let me get my point number two okay. I'm gonna just call it as power hurts but speed kills and this is where i do think buffy has superior your senses that will serve her well at the beginning of the fight but as they kind of get into the battle being able to see things from far away someone's right in front of you fighting you only works works so well hearing someone coming at you as already in front of you may not really serve a greater purpose than that but where i really feel leonardo is superior to baffin again not by huge amount but enough is in the area of speed and enhanced speed. I know buffy has enhanced speed and probably demonstrated better in the comic book than it was in the t._v. Show but when it comes to speed i still think leonardo is definitely on a different level. Then buffy in one issue of the teenage ninja turtle citizens from w. leonardo has a hand gun and drawn at him at point blank range the guns fired and leonardo not only ducks under the boy doesn't go he ducks under the bullet after his fired mind you and then suites the legs of the person holding the gun before he has a chance to pull the trigger again. That's pretty frequently fast. Another issue leonardo's facing off against the alien threat who's wearing like enhanced exo skeleton type of robotic armor and he's waiting especially in our own as he's doing it. He opens fire by opening up his robotic hands review that reveal ten laser blasters on each hand so twenty and total ray if i'm going too fast let me know and this is at close range leonardo then proceeds to dodge all the laser blasts run up to threaten drag and slice off one of his robotic cans but this is where things get really fun. Leonardo skill enables him to swing a sword at extreme speed like two swords extreme speed so it's not his body movement. It's also his ability used his weapons that he's an expert at so. I check this out. I know a samurai sword can swing speed of one hundred miles per hour by a well trained human. The ninja ninja sword that leonardo has actually lighter than a samurai sword okay so don't ask me it it the exactly but is shorter and it can be sweating slider so oh if that can be powered by regular human who's well trained. Leonardo probably swain at least twice as fast. So how hard would it be for him to hit. Buffy swing between the thing the sorts twice speed of <hes> well trained human while also possessing way more power as well so even with buffy enhanced durability. She's gonna please please be cut and damaged by leonardo and probably outfought because of his speed. That's my point number two and i mean partially well argued on your part. I like the fact that you actually a for the first time in a long time actually brought some real feats an actual examples of your work instead of just making things up having a pure conjecture so i'd like to say you're growing and james. I really appreciate it. Just kiss already talking. No one wants to see that let's talk about. Let's talk about your calf. It's not a visual medium eighty among describes the kiss you described as being having a speed on a different level than buffy and to that i agree. It's a much lower level of speed compared to buffy. It is a a different level. Buffy is described through all of the guides and all of the media that i've been using as having superhuman speed as having definitely above peak human human definitely to a level of superhuman speed and i've got some examples of point number three to back that up leonardo and the other ninja turtles are described having elite olympic level speed strength endurance agility etc so if you have one character who has olympic level a human size level of powers and you have somebody who who has a super level of powers. We've encouraged this in a battle before we've incurred this. You have to give it to the person who has the superpower so the fact that you think that leonardo is faster than buffy when i've got some examples right here that your examples are adorable and don't get me wrong but buffy does that before breakfast generally early on most days. I've got to ask you so where where did you because there's different listings of strength levels levels and all that which which version of teenage turtles are you referring to when you say olympic level because the w versions that are clearly superhuman well since you're using all the different level. I am not the name using your example. I'm using the i._d. W current innovation and i can look up example from that but i would just say much like the way facts working james when a hip you to something right now. When someone tells you a fact sir you often remember the fact but not the source and this is how the fake news purveyors of the world thrive through the human brain is the fact that people remember. Oh i do remember x y i in z. I don't remember where i heard it from whether or not they are reputable what i would say is i looked on some guides that chronicle characters that i looked powers abilities and what have you through the magic logic the internet and the big guy that i had that laid out all of the different like how they would rate the different abilities referred to the ninja turtles having olympic caliber feats but i would say right now that's great. We can even talk about if you think that that's where leonardo is. I'll have examples important number. Three of how buffy is so much more than that all right so we'll agree to disagree which means i'm correct gino. What do you think what's called the turning point and this is where the judge tells everyone who they believe is ahead and what does the other side have to do to come out victoria. So who do you have in the lead and the other side have to do to pull out a win well. Let's see here. You almost had me actually with the gun thing. Because i didn't the versions of leonardo nardo in my head do not have superhuman speed but you have to you have to accept the fact that if he can dodge a bullet he obviously has to have superhuman human speed so that point you almost have at that point till ray reminded me that buffy also has superhuman speed. I feel like his point about stealth is a good one because i do think she would gain the upper hand there. I think weapons wise. They're pretty evenly matched to be honest. I think she probably has a better weapon but he he has a more efficient weapon so at this point i've kind of got i. I'm kind of leaning towards buffy excited to hear that but you know if you've got more points like the a bullet one. That's that's you should pull them out. You should put pull them out because that almost swayed me. That was <hes> you know. It was hard to deny that almost weighed me. I believe i've got more points. I think i can do this but let's see ray. What have you got for point number three point number three and i hate to say that i was sandbagging a little bit but i often do that and wait until point number three to hit you with the really big gun so puppies ahead right now. I am excited because this is going to push it right over the top. We're gonna go into depth about the level of buppies power set as well as some of the feats that she has accomplished first off. She's she fights the supernatural on a day-to-day basis but she doesn't just fight one supernatural character most of the time she's fighting them. A half dozen to a dozen to more there was a time in the comics when she was trapped outside the gates of the city and she was forced to fight an entire horde of demons unprepared. They snuck up. They came over the ridge. She was stuck on the outside. She's like i have to deal with this right now and absolutely destroyed every single one of these mutant demon monsters in addition. There's a moment in the t._v. Show when she's attacked by super soldiers who were all dressed like ninjas black clad head to toe using ninja weapons and she summarily dispatches each one of them and this isn't even with a weapon and they're coming after her with all manner of the ninja weapons and what have you and she just wipes the floor with three or four of them at which point all of the other people come out of the woodwork. Well it was a test. Please don't kill them. They're just people. We're just testing you. Oh my gosh you're so powerful. We didn't think you could do the things that you just did. In the final season of the tv show she defeated dracula. That's right the count dracula the most powerful vampire and basically any universe any vampire. The property that you can look at dracula is the main man leonardo houdini defeat. I mean let's face it in the w version. He didn't splinters the one who defeated shredder header. It wasn't leonardo so you don't have a victory there. I guess you can claim in some in somebody w property he defeated batman singlehandedly but we all know that is alive in additionally additionally buffy and the t._v. Show head play against 'em fighter except she'd been drained of all of her powers. She was relying purely on her combat abilities against a much bigger stronger longer. Well trained m._m._a. Fighter and she took a few shots beat. The heck out of him at the end of the day defeated him. Let's talk a little bit about the strength of buffy offi. Buffy is ridiculously strong easily much stronger than leonardo the mutants turtle one time she picked up a short of glass after being knocked down by a demon and she turned whip the decapitated the man decapitate of the demon with a shard of glass at one point she was wrapped up in a straitjacket notoriously difficult things to get out of she tore <unk> through tissue paper and ripped it off of her own body at one point was fighting vampire and she kicked him so hard he went through a stone wall at one point she needed to get to the other their site of stonewall so she kicked the wall and cut a giant hole in it like it was some crazy commercial with terry crews got it. She doesn't like walls. G hates walls not only that she's so so fast and this is part of the speed as well. Oh leonardo dodged bullets. That's fantastic. Somebody threw a knife at her set of knives and she caught them out of mid air. She call them out of mid air looking say ray i am. I haven't done the science on this but i think bullets go faster well. Let's go thank scientists points race story to catch a knife that's thrown by a master knife-thrower than it is to just move out of the way slightly of a bullet don't we don't even we know if it was fired correctly. We don't even know if the guy knew what was going on with a gun. The gun could have flown out of his hand. We have no idea what the speed and it also goes to her. Danger sense. She wants stepped in a bear trap and she pulled her foot out of the bear trap before it closed and did not injure her. That is a ridiculous level of speed because those airtran happened in an instant. She recognized that she stepped on a bear trap pulled her leg out from the bear trap completely unharmed. Let's talk when we talk about strength. We talked about speed endurance durance because to my understanding leaner doesn't really have a healing factor. He's had his hand cut off at hand st cut-off. Okay bronner's go ahead. All versions of leo are the version she and the t._v. Show and the comics is displayed a ridiculous healing factor where she's incurred broken bones over the course of a fight for being bludgeoned by these powerful four biblical creatures and by the end of the fight her bones are no longer broken and she's using those broke that broken arm one time she got her arm broken by a demon she stood up and at the end of the battle used that same arm to knock that demon unconscious that is an absolute thing that i saw happen gino. You're you don't remember it but that's what happened. I do remember it wasn't healed. She just fought with it but here's the deal she can fight with. It shows an endurance one time that she got in the comic books she got cut she got slashed by demon vampire and she was able to a huge slash along her side continued fighting defeated the monster more importantly. She got stabbed through the torso on the t._v. Show buy a sword and she was sort of like oh. Oh no i got stabbed by a sword and then turned beat the hell out of everybody else in the room. She has these powers and then a roughly a minute two minutes later. It was not even two minutes later. She had healed from that wound. She no longer had the cut in her body. So we've established super-strength. Leonardo's now have super speed at at best leonardo pushes this battle right right there on that regard but a supernatural endurance as well as feats <hes> that she is accomplished in combat. This just adds up to buffy winning this fight and that is my point number three three gina. You're you're you're. You're shaking your head in agreement. Sometimes mush the most of the time you're shaking and disagreement what what's going on through your well. I think here's the thing i know buffy very well every watched it many times so i think ray got a couple of the of the finer details wrong but his his overall general point was was right like she didn't she still she did get stabbed. She was not healed but she she she did prevail. Even though she had the sabaoon she sought a broken arm but she does heal faster than average people so so his overall general point was much faster than average people. There's one point of the show. She wonders what it's like for humans to have to actually go through a healing process yeah. She's injured but she doesn't stay. She's not let me put it this wolverine but she does heal much faster than average people so his general point was correct. How durable is she. She's i don't let me rephrase the question like if she had to because i saw one episode she was fighting is is it faith faith and she she stabbed faith with their own dagger and then day and then faith gave her the biggest backhand and knocked turn down off a platform and that took her out of the fight email faith was sad and i think she needed like face blood to kind of heal herself or something or something along those chocolate yeah yeah and then face that you're not gonna have it and she's then jumped off and landed in a truck that drove off as she was so. I was like okay wait. She's durable. She'd always up with faith back and the faith backhanded her faith character much stronger than leader. Leonardo isn't gonna backhander and send her off a building one of the here's the thing so it's not an issue remember who would win matches in a death match. It could be someone you could like. We've used battlefield removal. We've gone with like 'have you've been snared. You can get trapped. There's different ways as to incapacitate somewhere. We can safely walk away when it comes to this battle. I don't see leonardo having i'm just gonna put out there. I don't even have an ability to necessarily win. Kill her. I don't impressive but that doesn't mean he can't defeat her and this is where i'm gonna go there by the way we brought up the actually i i just got the dracula's not the most powerful vampire ever depicted we did scooby doo versus <hes> michael myers a classic episode where i brought up how scooby doo defeated whom i think is the most powerful vampire ever the australian vampire known as we yahoo you bring this back into the house would probably interestingly howard buffy do against the hour yahoo. I'm pretty sure she probably i mean excuse me scooby doo beat him. I think she's got a look. Wait was it an actual vampire power richard real vampire drugs are bad all right so let me just kind of keep going with this so who <hes> their point number three is not. Thank god. It's good to point number three. I got to defend myself from actually a very good point lasting longer than my points and my point was to to begin n with exactly you won't get bored over about to say but leonardo's taking on in this idea w series there is this one issue where they actually had this enhanced us and bain came over to the teenage mutant ninja turtle universe took over from shredder who got beat by batman by the way and then made it a superior stronger version of of was it rock steady is that like enhanced burglary and then being in has himself even more with us in the venom and leonardo. Oh had one point. I had to take on all three of them. He did such a good job impress bain and then escaped because it was just great cover for someone else we has taken on insanely powerful and and just got away the welcome to get away in this battle as well. Maybe maybe that's what he's gotta. Do okay number three and this is another area. I think where leonardo actually is superior to bobby because there's a lot of areas where he can say that it's durability. That's why i asked about it now. Of course he's taken insane amounts of punishment you know she's gotten even hit by fisk kick thrown things she's fallen from pretty good heights and she typically gets back but she does get hurt and she does have a healing factor but she it does take damage she does she can be hurt. That's the bottom line leonardo. Unfortunately he also gets hit a lot. He's also thrown walls and he's taken falls from really big heights but here's the difference leonardo's taking more punishment in terms of greater heights and i think hits for more possibly more direct hits for more powerful opponents. It's again take bane on venom was super mutated. Who's so you've got a walking talking. Super highly intelligent fighting monster known as bain gene who had superhuman strength magnified greatly leonardo took direct hits from bane of bebop rock steady and tank them felt them but taint them to create a distraction so spread and everyone else get away. He's been blasted by superstrong tasers and the one thing is i know a taser in the buff universe. I think that took out i forget who took doubt but that took out like a very powerful demon i think or at least knocked her down so a taser in the buffy. Universe is a really significant things. Leonardo's had been taste got backup. He's good to go leonardo. This is one oh my favorite ones literally. There was this creature called slasher which i think was a mutated snapping turtle so as a result is cute yeah so there's all he's like a giant savaged teenage mutant ninja turtle who wants to kill the turtles so they're all trying to take him on. Leonardo gets punted in the head by slasher and then kids. Let's pile driven from the punt headfirst into a wall smashes. The wall apart slasher turns around and take on the other turtles and also gets hit in the head by a throwing star from a very far distance distance hits him in the head damaged. Who's got these long. Range attacks turns around and leonardo's backup saying now we're gonna fight for real and is ready to take him on that by it doesn't even take into account leonardo's shell which take even more punishment and has also bulletproof and resistant to lasers to a great degree. Here's the other thing too. Leonardo was as reset one time captured and i think it was the shredder someone else and then thrown off a seven story building where he lands in a dumpster and then slowly crawls out. It's like okay. He's like give me a second. Yeah can still fight so. He doesn't have a healing power but he's got this. Indomitable will unfortunately buffy has that too but i think again. He's slightly edges out in terms of overall punishment. They it can take a moment and this is what allows him to kind of take on and take out much more physically dominating opponents to him so you know i know it's a reach but i still think he's got the better fighting skills martial technique higher level of speed remember getting wave a bullet versus throwing knives which are much lower by the way that's how speed works right and and <hes> also. I just think he's got physical billion. A slightly different level so i see leonardo plus on the tablet is a great tactician. He'll figure out a way to maybe put her through a wall and let the rebel kind of take down or capture some other way or in capacitor. I don't think you can killer but i do think he has a great chance somehow incapacitated or at least lease for the time being that's my point number three and i think you said a lot of things in there that were very freudian in nature because i agree with you. There aren't a lot of areas where or leonardo was better than buffy. It is a bit of a reach to make some of the claims. You're making a couple of the things where your first off his battle with bain. We talked before about one off. Examples should not be used used other powers. This is a battle throughout like a number of pages. Take shots from bain all the time. I would never yes when everybody's paying. Yes i would also say we're talking about this gene a lot in the show. Sometimes it's like who's comic book is it because i guarantee of leonardo shows up in baynes comic book bena throwing them off a seven story building it into a dumpster without really much effort whatsoever as he slaps the swords out of his hands so you have to take a little bit of a grain of salt when it comes to other outside characters coming into your comic book doc you will defeat them. That's just how so you gave examples of clearly of buffy doing all this outside of comic book is that correct no but she's fighting people burrowing universe where her power level in their power levels are established not two different universes trying to cross over. I would say this bad with pain that james so eloquently uses an example. I didn't even win that fight. He ran away so let's just say that now. You talked a little bit about getting thrown headfirst into a wall. This is an advantage leonardo because he can talk his head into his shell and dot suffered a concussion so i would say that maybe that feat of endurance. Maybe not as powerful. Maybe not as strong as it. I might take more punishment and not get damaged well. I would also say you say your show. Joe is very powerful. I established a point number one that she could puncture it with the size and she could absolutely go crack that shell with her weaponry. That's basically what i have right there. James i think made a lot of points for me in saying that yes in a head to head battle. I don't think leonardo's going to win james galaxy. There aren't a lot of areas where leonardo is better than buffy. James gaps and i'm making a little bit of a retailer with some of these examples james gabsi so i would just say my rebuttal is listening to james. He laid it out for you. It's right there gene and more importantly when you look at ray what goes through your mind. Oh i try not to look at him a little as possible. That's a fact i wear one of those handmaid's tale l. blinders anytime. I'm around him as much as i can. I may need to find out where you get. I think anyway gene. You've heard both sides of this argument human. You've heard some great points from ray for me. This is the time where you need to give us your wisdom. Your insight tell us who do you think won this fight and give us an insight into your process and tell us why they want one okay. Here's the thing so so. I have to say the leonardo fighting batman and winning seven and win. It was a tree. I will admit it was a training exercise. Man was like but batman was like there's no way you know he's confident that you've seen batman no way guys taking me down. He did and one in a sparring match and batman. I i will do better that fighting and winning. It's not to the level that i think james say. It's a a good argument as as is the argument that he was able to at least incapacitate bain long enough to leave again like i said the the you know being able to dodge a bullet at pretty much point blank range very compelling. I think by your own admission they're pretty buffy and leonardo are physically weekly pretty evenly matched so i think that if it came down to just a just hand to hand combat leonardo is going to have a hard time all out winning as you said now the the one main thing that is consistent with leonardo's character throughout all mediums is is that he is as you said in the beginning or as ray said in the beginning <hes> he's the one who who who's most closely to splinters training. He's he's not an improviser. He's he uses his training and he's he's sort of if anything portrayed in movies and in the comics and in the cartoon two in the various cartoons as sort of not being great when it comes to skewing away from what splinter splinter has told him what his training has told him so ray all you really had to do was say look at kendra the vampire slayer who was it was a character who is the equivalent of leonardo who was trained as a young child to be a slayer and then when she when she came into her slayer powers here's the first time buffy died which another point you've got to bring up was she's died multiple times and we shouldn't consider has managed to come back but kendra the vampire slayer was sort of the opposite of buffy in that she she relied heavily on her training and was not good at improvisation and ultimately <hes> kendra died and royal glad to hear that and you know buffy herself as sort of gives her this thing about like you need to be able to improvise so i think that even if we accept that they're physically evenly matched with both of you have i think raised point to her weapon in being able to slice through shell and her being great at improvising with other weapons which throughout the series we have seen her use swords and this and that whereas you know leonardo we mainly see him use use his an injustice. I think she gets a slight advantage weaponry so let's just say physicality. They're both even she has a slight advantage advantage weaponry and i would say that she does consistently as race ed face harder foes. I think the the foot clan is is is sort of the red shirts of the of the teenage mutant undeterred universe and even though every once in a while they may get to a big boss battle pretty much. Every episode of buffy is at some point. She faces says the big boss battles so i think consistency wise she faces more big bads and so that's why i've got to give it to ray and i've got to give it to buffy that that is very exciting. The streak is broken james. My street podcast co host tiny. I was literally the you've. You've heard of undefeated. I was literally purely defeated by every single podcast co host i've ever had gina thank you for being the smartest co host. I've ever done this show. We're this was a good matchup. This was a good up. I do think it's a little bit hampered by the fact that leonardo also fights with a team and buffy has had two solo fight many time. I actually okay so first of all. I can't disagree with your your judgments. I thought that was going into this. I'm like okay. This is going to be extremely challenging battle and then ultimately comes so that group dynamic buffy has the scooby gang. Doesn't they call it oh guess but they're nowhere near the helping hand so to speak that the rest of the teenage mutant ninja turtles are to leonardo. He's most highly proficient with them. Whereas buffy is very insanely kick ass. She's the regard manhattan that happened of that team right. He's great by herself and oh by the way she's also great if they happen to be there so i actually agree with your decision ray. I thought your points were horrible. Horribly laid out gina gina for being here because she's the one who really of the i think the people at home no i won this fight so gina thank you. We're doing the will of the people. Actually you made me nervous in your final verdict because actually you're bringing up like all the stake tell you really thought about it and i appreciated that the diligence what made me nervous as you brought up the point about how she died. Even neither of us had ever said it and i was like oh she's bringing in a negative point that we didn't say but then you countered it with a positive point that we also didn't say so so those two things kind of thing you were both talking about durability so i don't think coming back from the dead is a bad thing. I think when you're talking talking about like this one got knocked down but they got back up. There's no there's no better got knocked down and got back up then died and and by the way she was through supernatural super natural means in the first time she she technically drowned and was brought back by brought back by c._p._r. So no okay okay the second time it was. It was her friends through witchcraft brought her back muslim yesterday got it so happens a lot. Okay again you. <hes> you know i've got to admit something i was not super familiar with buffy before we came up this match and then start researching her and i'm like i gotta start watching. The series you have i have to is absolutely unloved character. She's great ray. I gotta tell you you did a horrible job but again thanks to gina you pull out a win. Has it feel by the way getting win. After so long i would say curve every win and the people at home we'll tell you i've won every battle of the show if you left it to the will of the people ray has one ninety two percents of all the who would win in battle. That's an unofficial statistic but i still stand by it. James thank you because if you think i did a terrible job it's because you're salt because you lost and i love hearing that from you because every retired you win a battle. I hear how great i did. I flew strategy. I feel like <hes> this has made me the bad guy i can feel myself turning to the dark excite since i cited with rain is really just a slight veering. I think by by tomorrow morning. I'm going to be killing babies and setting orphanages on fire. Is that what have you can feel the change happening within me. No i don't know where to go from gina. Thanks for being on the show. Please don't nobody <hes> feel free to sleep in tomorrow and not a personal day and just kind of you know reflect on who you are quick though gene and thank you very much much for the victory that i deserved what i would say. I want to talk about babe squad because i am a day one preorder purchaser of babe squad approved. It's proved that i took a picture and put it on the face icebox and he's got like no money how much begging i had to do to get that and they want somebody with a computer about nine dollars worth since i think that's what it's going. I think i paid more than that but it's going down as it was eleven bucks on amazon prime day everybody would say though is it's a really fantastic comic book. You know i'm a big fan. I took took it to work and i show it to people at my work place all the time and so i'm trying to get everybody into the babe squad and i would say this is a personal thing for you at home tom listening to this show. Check this out. It's less than ten dollars to buy on amazon even in no shipping no shipping charge. We assume your prime because we assume you you're awesome but you could probably really find a way to get this for no show. It's like nine dollars to get this comic book. Gina frigging road it with her writing partner haley mancini also fantastic and so it's great. It's really really funny. It's not for kids. It's adult and these ladies kick a lot of butter and i just want to say it's really well drawn. It's really well written. It's funny. I don't laugh out loud. I read comics very often. I did hear and then the we already spoiled it. Put the reveal of the toilet lady. Maybe one of my favorite things i've ever seen because it was so ridiculously particularly left-field part everything just said rate is the visual of you going to work and going out to people and say hey check out babe squad absolutely like you buy by my book. Your book is fantastic. I just like ray of all people not that you're not a handsome man. You're not but just going up to people and kind of like here's babe squad. I would think you of all people i have many years in sales and i can tell you i know how to sell a thing babe squad go by. I'm buying it. You know what based off that. I'm buying it gene. You know seriously you're fantastic. Thank you raise actually spoken very well about you. Wanna meet you forever. We've been trying to get you on the show for a very long time. <hes> pity busy busy with your the t._v. Shows you're writing your on a unicorn coming out soon september and again. Tell everyone where they can find you online and again. Tell them where they can buy squad. I am on twitter at gina epi also on instagram at gene epi and you can buy bape squad wherever graphic novels are sold and by that i mean amazon target dot com barnesandnoble the noble dot com and a few others that would sound totally kind of dushi except when you said and i was like yeah wherever i agree with that statement and ray please everyone where they can find you can find me on twitter at almighty ray. You should also listen to gina abelino myself and some other guy doing knowing is half the podcast. What's his name rob. I don't remember yeah. I get you guys confused. Salat get us confused a lot to be honest with you. I've heard that many other times for many other his name is robert robert clark chan that that makes a lot of sense robert clarke jan you could say knowing except the podcast of course at g._i. Joe podcast on twitter or go onto patriot patriot dot com slash the podcast and help us upgrade once again because ray keeps blowing them out to guys if you if you've listened to any episodes of this show you don't understand i do blah microphones. It's a talent is a talent skill. It's you can find me posey. My question of the day on twitter james gives you remember to join the official who would win facebook group to make a suggestion for a match for the show and in part of our growing community and check out the website at w._w._w. Dot who would win show dot com to access oliver podcast episodes as well to check out some great articles on behalf of myself racy kennison the recipe amazing win team. Thank you once again for listening to another episode of who would win. We'll see you next time.