Fake Meat Designed for Carnivores
Welcome to if Dan the showboat technology is changing our lives and our future. I'm broke laser. And I'm Kashmir home. Hey, everyone. Welcome to if then we're coming from slate and future tense partnership between late Arizona State University and new America, we're recording this on the morning of Tuesday, April ninth and first of all like to welcome. My co host today who is Kashmir ho she's an investigative reporter Gizmodo who's been digging into privacy and technology conundrums for many years. Kashmir. Thanks for co hosting. Thanks for having me as a guest host. Yes. Superfund? So on today's show, we're going to talk about a British proposal to regulate content on social media sites. And then we'll talk about Kashmir. Its recent investigation into Airbnb efforts to kick white nationalist off its platform ahead of a national summit in Tennessee. After that, we'll talk to Pat Brown CEO and founder of impossible foods to talk about his eerily realistic fake meat. That's trying to pitch a sustainable alternative to the environmentally destructive meat industry. And as always will end with don't close my tabs, some of the best things we saw on the web this week. That's all coming up on if then. So we're going to start by discussing some news that came out Sunday that UK regulators shared. It's a new proposal that would require social media companies like Facebook and YouTube from Google to be much faster and more proactive about removing harmful content on their platform. The proposal is very wide ranging. It covers insuring news presented isn't rife with misinformation, combating hate speech cyberbullying child exploitation. What else like extreme violence like what we saw in New Zealand. Right. And this isn't the first country to do this in Germany last year. There was a measure that was passed that could charge companies up to sixty million if they don't delete legal content quickly and then in Australia last week. Are you familiar with this? They passed a law that says that social media executive Scott should be put in jail, if content isn't removed quickly enough Yannis isn't entirely new. I remember years ago that YouTube. Executives. We're going to be arrested. If they went to Italy because there was a YouTube video of a kid being bullied that they want to take down. So it's not exactly new. But it does seem like governments around the world are very interested in regulating the tech companies right now. Yeah. And I mean, Mark Zuckerberg even said that he's open to some form of speech and content. Regulation to be put on Facebook from from US regulators, which might run into some thorny first amendment issues. I haven't read the whole hundred page white paper from the UK parliament. And this is from Damian Collins who is the same the same lawmaker who seized all of those documents from the lawsuit against Facebook and made those public. He's been very interested in going after Facebook. It's a one hundred page white paper with a lot of ideas in it about regulating them. I've only read the three page executive summary. But it seemed kind. Like, basically, the UK wants to eliminate you know, the kind of section two thirty protections that tech companies have in the US where you know, as a publisher of information, you're not responsible for what your users do. And I think the UK is saying we want the companies to be more responsible for what their users are doing. So it would be a real turnabout from the way that U S law works and this principle in the US that tech companies are not liable for what users post has really allowed internet companies to grow into the mammoths that they are because you know, who would want to invest in a company in the in the nineties or in the early odds, if they could get sued for whatever, you know, any random person said on their platform, it kind of gave the these companies the security to get large investments and to grow these big platforms. It also gave them the security to kind of look the other way when their platforms were being used for hate. So this is all kind of boiling over now at least in a eight of different countries. One thing that the UK proposal does. Is is suggest the creation of a new regulatory agency in the country to help ensure that companies comply, which I just can't even imagine how compliance or really looking. I mean, these companies can't regulate themselves. They there's just too much content being produced all the time. I think it was like one point five million copies of the video of the the massacre New Zealand in the first day after it the first twenty four hours after it happened was removed from Facebook. Right. I mean, it's just a a mammoth undertaking. Yeah. I, you know, I just think that increasingly I mean, they're horrible things that are happening in in the world, and we see them reflected through the prism of technology companies because this is how these things are being captured and spread. And I I think that lawmakers are just hoping there's a way to stop it if they can get, you know, a tech companies to come up with the right filter. The right. You know, the right kind of ban. But. It's going to be hard. I think a lot of people are critical of this proposed regulation, but like a little bit like we're Goldilocks where every time government proposes some new regulation. We're like, well, this one is too broad and this one we don't know what the unintended consequences are going to be until it's I think it's very hard to to come up with regulation. Everyone thinks is perfect. Yeah. And we're trying to fix something. And you know, after the toothpastes is kind of out of the tube. And it's it's really difficult in the US. There's not like a proposal sitting on the shelf that people are are really rallying behind. But there was a hearing this morning in the House Judiciary committee abouts kind of hate groups use of Facebook and YouTube in how the son of the social media sites have dealt with them. And we've seen a number of, you know, hearings where lawmakers have brought up this issue. But, but there's really no heart proposal that that's being pulled off the shelf in that people are kind of rallying behind like I said, so you know, who knows? The US is going to address this one thing that people have brought up as of course, just limiting the power of these companies by making them smaller, which would be an antitrust action. But again, they're still not really a hard proposal that people are able to Deseo K. This is what we're gonna do. This is how we're going to execute antitrust. And antitrust is just so underused in the US, it's such an atrophied policy that I don't think people even know where to start or at least lawmakers don't even seem sure of of how to how they would begin such a proceeding. Yeah. I I don't know what we're gonna see I feel like in the US usually comes through either the idea that will have privacy legislation that there's this big push right now to pass a big privacy Bill in part to undermine the the pretty strong privacy law that was passed here in California or this idea of antitrust action. And we've seen it with in presidential proposals of people that are running who say, let's break up the tech companies. But as to what that will actually look like, I'm not. Sure yet. Well, we are going to keep following this. But one story that I really wanna talk about is one that you reported, and it was published last Friday about Airbnb, which is a company, I don't get. We don't really get to discuss that much because we're always talking about Facebook and YouTube and Google and Twitter an Airbnb, which is planning an IPO. This year is also trying to get rid of white nationalist as well. And so last Friday you posted a story withdrew Moreau TRE on Gizmodo about her Airbnb is struggling to keep white nationalist from using its platform. Specifically this time around the American renaissance conference a gathering that attracts hundreds of white nationalist every year. It was taking place in middle Tennessee this year and y'all look at some leaked communications of the event planning from the independent investigative group. Unicorn riot and found that while some hotels were suggested for lodging many coming were also booking Airbnb. Meaning they were staying in people's homes. Now, I know that if I rented out an Airbnb, I would not feel comfortable having members of, hey. Groups staying in my home. What happened when you told Airbnb about this? Yeah. So Airbnb during Charlottesville and unite right? You know, did say that they had a ban white nationalist. And that they didn't want them using the platform. You know, they Airbnb has this whole nondiscrimination policy that was developed in part because there was racism that was happening on the platform where certain guests in certain host were being judged or not allowed in people's homes because of race and so- Airbnb stances that white nationalist violate its on discrimination. Pulsing doesn't want them on the platform. So we went and told them about American renaissance, and they said, oh, you know, they were really alarmed, and they basically start whole investigation to see, you know, whether people had booked Airbnb is and also, you know, looking for people that were connected to the conference. And so they wound up canceling some reservations and kicking some people off of Airbnb, including faith Goldie who said Canadian. Ian woman who's been called the white nationalist poster girl who then complained that she had been kicked off because she said, she had a really great record on Airbnb of being a great guest and very clean and very respectful, but it was interesting because Airbnb has said, you know, much like Facebook and Instagram that it has a ban now on white nationalist using the platform, but it didn't seem like Airbnb with actually doing anything to look for these people until we came and told them about a conference, but this conference isn't an underground conferences conference has been happening for years. It's it's controversial in Tennessee. Because the state park in Tennessee is hosting a group of noon, white nationalist every year and protesters come so it's not unknown faith Goldie has had big stories written about her. She's in the news ally. She's in the news a lot. So it just it seemed that Airbnb wasn't proactive. Wli looking for these people, but it will act if it's brought to their attention. And so I think it just raises this question of once these companies do create a man, how far do we expect them to go and enforcing it? Yeah. And I mean does that mean that they have to kind of keep a calendar of when there are going to be big hate gatherings around the country. You know, it's it's it's very hard to know, the political leanings of everyone that uses your platform, especially if it's not a place where people are actively talking about their politics. But it seems that it is possible to kind of know one these convergences at least the more public ones are happening. And and then kind of see if all of a sudden, there's a bunch of rooms being rented in places where people aren't typically vacationing like where I'm from where this conference is happening in middle Tennessee outside of Nashville where where I don't think most people go for fun. Yeah. And it's you can ask the same question of hotels, but hotels, don't have the same amount of information about their Airbnb has and their baby is something different. You are bringing host together with guests. And so I do think it puts a special requirement on the company to make sure that's a safe interaction bringing people into your home. I mean, it's not just renting out your whole house when you're not there. But like a running out a room while you're there, you know, do you want to be harboring someone that is actively facilitating or being a member of a hate group? Many of these groups are are known to to be violent or at least, you know, pro actively practicing racism, antisemitism. So yeah, Airbnb does have responsibility when we're talking about letting people into the home, but this is kind of something that they have to do on their own. There's no law that says they have to do this. It's just that if they have. These rules. What is monitoring look like it doesn't seem like they're doing that much monitoring great now. I mean, do they have a team dedicated to this? Did they tell you anything about their kind of methodology for sussing this out? They didn't wanna tell us too much about their methodology because they say, oh, well, then that tells the bad guys what we do with Lao, you know, people in the future to circumvents, whatever we're doing to keep people off the platform that we don't want. But it did seem like it was basically falling with the trust and safety team. Yeah. They wouldn't go into exactly how they do. What they do. They have vague posts about, you know, they do background checks. They look at all these signals machine learning yada, yada, yada. Right. But it was funny. I mean, we also called because there were two there were four hotels that were recommended is accommodations, if the, you know, the end at the state park filled up, and so I called them and asked, you know, how do you feel about white nationalist, Dana hotel, and they are dislike. Well, we don't ask people while why they're here. And all we ask for I d and as long as they don't, you know, 'cause a raw ruckus in the lobby. We, you know, we don't discriminate against anyone so Airbnb is certainly has a a higher standard than other hotels that are in the area. But I think that they should again because they have a special, you know, model their moderating letting people into your home. They're kind of like or mediating that you know. And it was I think it was in two thousand sixteen one the hashtag you mentioned this earlier Airbnb while black really kind of went viral on Twitter, and it was a place where black users using hashtag were recounting their experiences being denied places to stay even when the listings were marked is open in so Airbnb has definitely felt. With people using their platform to to to act racist. Okay. Well, I really recommend the story in Gizmodo that we're talking about it's entitled Airbnb doesn't want white nationalist on its platform. But how hard is it looking for them? Really well written and reported and next we're going to talk to Pat Brown CEO and founder of impossible foods, which makes the impossible burger, which we tried right before recording this podcast. I'm David plots one of the hosts of the political vest and your ears right now to encourage you to sign up for sleep. Plus, I know I know you've got this message before but hear me out for second. You see slate? Plus is probably the best thirty five dollars. You'll spend this year. Not only we get more than thirty. That's thirty podcasts at free for just thirty five dollars. But as a slate plus member, you'll also get exclusive access to private cocktail hours favorite podcast hosts discounts on tickets to live events around the country, less advertising dot com. Direct access to slate writers editors podcasters to private Facebook group. Plus, tons of extra podcast episodes and segments supports journalism and give yourself a service you'll actually use signing up for sleep. Plus today. Just visit slate dot com slash podcasts. Plus to sign up today. Again, that's slate dot com slash podcast. Plus, thanks. Our guest today is Pat Brown CEO and founder of impossible foods, Pat Brown. Thanks so much for joining us. Sure writing. Yes. So we wanted to talk a bit with you about your company impossible foods in the impossible burger that you'll make and this is a special in light of the fact that animal industries are leading cause of climate change. This is near universally accepted premise, and was outlined clearly in the UN's more recent report on the environmental crisis grazing takes up about two-thirds of the world's agricultural land. A third of that comes from deforestation then the cattle that graze release gases as well. So it's really not good for the environment all around that is eating meat and producing meat particularly beef, and it's not sustainable either. There have been meat alternatives for many years but impossible burger and other more recent lab made protein products aimed at truly mimic meet. And of course, your company is bolstered by nearly four hundred million in venture capital. Kashmir. And I'd just tasted an impossible burger was-. My first time. It was my second or third, but it was Kashmir's first time, and you liked it. Right. Yeah. I mean, April had to buy it last night. We warmed it up in the microwave, but we had to for sale this morning, but I have to say it was delicious and so much better. I think than a regular burger that had sat in for her refrigerator overnight. It is incredibly meet like and the flavor was really good. I I'm not currently of -tarian, but I was vegetarian for seven years. And I do not remember budgetary in burgers tasting that good. I also like them. I am a vegetarian maybe more flexible, but tend to eat very vegetarian, and I I like them. I think that they taste pretty much like real burger than I'm not even looking for something that tastes like a real burger because it's not something. I miss, but it is something that's delicious. And and it is kind of nice to to get that back a bit. And so, you know, what is how are you able to get them to taste so meet like? First thing to understand is that the company was not founded to create a better veggie burger the goal. The company mission of the company was founded is to completely replace animals food system by twenty thirty five sooner of possible, and to do so by creating meat, fish and dairy foods without using animals that are better in every way that matters to the consumers of those products. That was something that's never been the premise of any company that made meat alternatives before they have always sort of you their target market as people who are looking for an alternative. We're not interested in people who are looking for an alternative where we're interested in making products that outperform in deliciousness in nutritional value. You have to get the flavors and the Roma's right to have to the texture of the juicy nuts the way performs kitchen and so forth, but pretty much the reason that meat tastes. Unlike anything from the plant world is that meat contains very high levels of molecule called him. So you can take a bunch of a simple nutrients that can come from appliance or an animal or pretty much any cell that are me know acid sugars fats, so they're not animals Pacific. And if you were to cook them together, you'd get some very mild savory sort of like vegetable broth type of tastes. If you throw in him bang. It turns into meet him as the catalyst that catalyze the chemical reactions that take these simple common nutrients. And produce hundreds of Allah tala Roma in flavor compounds that add up to the, you know, unique characteristic, aroma five or profile of meat. So what is hayme though? I that's what I'm confused about is getting it from soy while he is found in every living cell on earth pretty much. It's essential for every cell in every plant. It's essential for every so on every animal it's part of the core mechanism by which cells generate burn calories to generate energy. So that's something that we didn't. Discover that's known for for many years. And he was also familiar probably a lot of people as the molecule that carries oxygen in your blood delivers oxen from your lungs to tissues points. And and also gives your blood its red color and animal tissues of it's sort of obvious. They contain a lot were hime like orders of magnitude more him than typical plant even though plants need him. And this explosion of flavor in Roma. That's unlike anything you'll ever see when you're cooking. Something plant base. That's all due to the Catholic activity of. And it really is true. When you eat the burger it tastes like meat ours. Didn't bleed. But if I didn't know that I would have thought I was eating meat burger. But how do you guys actually develop the hime that you're putting in your burgers? Yeah. So the heat containing protein in our burgers is naturally found in the root nodules of Sony beans. It's virtually identical between contain molecule in animal muscle tissue. Which is part of the reason we chose this one. Fall sorts of reasons, it's actually just incredibly difficult to isolate in cleaned form. These these tiny little parts of soybean roots from tons and tons of dirt and was completely unscaled. So then what we did was we took the gene from the implant that encodes team protein and transferred it into into yeast cells. And basically optimize the you cells. So these cells are naturally able to produce him. But what we did was we. Amplify their ability to produce tons of hime, and we introduced this plant protein that binds the hime and sort of releases that upon cooking. You might say that seems like a really expensive process. So, you know, the burgers that I the impossible burgers that I bought yesterday where fifteen dollars each I know that the Walker that's for sale now in Missouri is just a dollar more than a meat Walker. It's just a really high pride price point though. I I mean, I don't know why the whoppers were so much cheaper than the impossible burger that I'm buying restaurants in Oakland. But but talk about how much it cost because I just can't imagine that the process that you just described as very cost efficient, actually it is. And it's not only cost efficient it's vastly more resource efficient in terms of its environmental impact than producing him by covering the planet with cows. But it from a cost. It's actually interesting that as a general principle, if you can produce something using a lot less resources, and with a smaller environmental footprint, it's highly likely to be cheaper when it's at scale. So at scale, our production process should be considerably less expensive than the producing the same things using an animal, and I would be reasonably confident that within two or three years are caused the production will have fallen below the cost of action of the animal equivalents, fundamentally our economic are better. We because we use less land use four percents on hand we use about that attend the water we use a less than a tenth the fertilizer inputs and fraction of all the other inputs that go. Into producing meat from a cow. It's just a matter of getting to scale before your your product is cheaper. And that's what we're focusing on right now is scaling up as fast as possible. So unlike other vegetarian burger companies your target audience, isn't that -tarian you're trying to target meters? So what is your strategy Ben to try to convince people that they should be eating impossible burgers instead of the regular kind own. We know based on tons of data that meat lovers love meat because of its new delicious flavor, it's nutritional value protein content in iron and stuff like that. It's familiarity, convenience and affordability not. Because of the fact that it's made from the cadaver wgn animal, but in spite of the fact that's made from the Jabber an animal, and we have very good data that hardcore meat lovers. This is. True crime every corner of the US in the world. If you can deliver the deliciousness, and the affordability and those things that consumers nutritional value things that consumers value in meat and make it from plants. They would actually value would more because meat lovers love their meat. But they don't love how it's made they live with how it's made. And most of the time they try to ignore. How it's may. I think they just don't think about it. Don't wanna think about it. But the point is it's clearly not something that is part of what they value meat. So what that means for us is that that the critical thing is to make a product that outperforms in the way that lead lowers care about mostly flavor protein, Aren an affordability where in the world can you get an impossible burger right now Burger King's, Missouri. I definitely see them around the San Francisco Bay area. You guys started at MoMA Fukui in New York, right? Where else start one we started at a sort of very high in restaurants that are run by chefs who are particularly noted for their meat. They're known as, you know, meet chefs, and that would be, you know, in New York City Dave Chang, who's like one of artist or meet good is around. There's west we had Michael Simon who had recently published a book called carnivore. And we did that basically because the most important thing we needed to communicate to consumers right out of the box. Is that? This isn't uncompromisingly delicious meat not avenge burger, but we wanted to get mainstream as fast as possible. And you know, we're going into retail later this year. So consumers will be able to have this experience. Literally mind-blowing that's kind of what makes chefs volume of our product when they try it is that it does something that no one has ever seen a plan product do before. Which is it does the same sort of magical transformation? Isn't it does when you cook it, but in terms of where you can find it right now right now is in Burger King and Saint Louis our hope is and and were reasonably confident that this will happen that it will go nationwide sometime in the middle of the year, and it's in white castle. It's in which is mostly in the east coast. But there you can buy an impossible slider for a buck ninety nine. Then were also red, Robin. Which is our right now, actually our biggest customer with five hundred plus stores and Amami burger the counter. The individual restaurants around large cities. Most of our current customers are just relatively small operators that have a single unit or a small number of of units. Are you getting any pushback from big beef industry yet or you guys too small still? Yeah. I mean, are they are they not happy with the word burger, I I guess that's already kind of a lost cause. But what is what is the pushback from the beef industry? It's interesting because they have very limited tools. They have a lot of political cloud. But basically since we're not going out there, and and picketing ranchers and in slaughterhouses, we're approaching this by creating a new product and then line consumers choose, and it's basically not this is not an attack on the meat industry. It's creating an alternative and consumers will pick the winners, basically. And that's a very hard thing to fight against politically the one thing that they're trying to do is to. Restrictions on what we can call our products. Is there a specific word? They don't want you to use. I don't want to speak for them. They're the Michigan's thing that I did read that they don't like the use of that word in particular. Yeah. Yeah. And our feeling is look, you know, the laws can restrict what we call it. But they can't restrict what consumers colic, and whatever we call. It consumers are going to call beat and calls burgers. And that's what matters reminds me of conflict. Diamonds versus lab grown diamonds. Right. Everyone wants to claim claim the claim the turf. That's interesting. So impossible burgers still do rely on totalitarian agriculture practices. You know, and growing relies on soy at which is a mono-crop that isn't good for the environment. When it's grown at massive quantities. Either. What are your thoughts on on that on just the fact that you can't really escape harmful ecological practices or agriculture practices? When you're when you're trying to produce that scale. Well, that's not really true. I mean, I would say that at the moment. We are too small company to be able to dictate what umbrella materials are grown. We have to use the materials that are grown at scale to make our product. And we don't, you know, most of the crops grown it at scale are actually grown agriculture mostly corn and soybeans in the world are grown to feed animals at tiny faction listings ever, get consumed by by humans. But we're not what we're doing is not endorsing. You've you called a took Taliban. Agriculture. I love that phrase. I'm not sure what it means. But it's pretty it's pretty catchy. But you know, when you talk about monocropping, I mean is lettuce on a crop is to tomatoes amount crop. I mean, the thing about monocropping is there are these these huge crops that are grown in vast bulk to feed animals, that's that's the problem. We're doing work right now looking at some entirely new sources of plant protein that are better environmentally and have a lot of advantages ingredients. But nobody's growing them right now because you know, the agricultural system doesn't take orders from us. And but when we're at scale, it's we're very actively thinking about building more robust agricultural system precisely not depending on any single or small number of crops because it makes it a risky. It is a food security problem if a significant fraction of the world's food and protein supply until fourth is coming from a small number of crops. If there's a outbreak of pass that attacks crops in cellphone, it's food security catastrophe. Right. Okay. Is this our last question for you? I know you're still small, but. Do you have an estimate of how many cows you've saved so far. Over ten thousand. Yeah. It's it's I would say it's probably approaching twenty thousand by the end of the year. It will be highly likely more than hundred thousand cows at have been saved and we have saved CO two emissions. You know, every time someone picks out impossible burger over the cow drivers, they saved equivalent of about eight miles of driving in a typical American car. So that adds up very quickly when we're selling, you know, millions of burgers as we are. So we're saving vast amounts of land water CO two emissions fertilizer use end associated runoff pollution pesticide use. And cows are. Hi, pat. Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah. Thanks for talking to me one final quick break. And then don't close my tabs some of the best things we've seen on the web this week. This episode is brought to you by plug into the present a campaign raising awareness about electric vehicles. More and more people are discovering how electric cars can fit into their lifestyle with today's electric vehicles. You aren't limited to your work commute. More and more models have a range of over two hundred miles per charge. So you can drive just about anywhere weekend road trips out of town, errands, you name it driving electric is just like driving a conventional car, and there are a lot of fun to drive to have you ever experienced instant twerk. Learn more about electric vehicles at plug into the present dot com. That's plug into the present dot com. It's time again for don't close my tabs. Kashmir. What did you leave open this week? Or what would you recommend rather that that people check out? Well, there was a piece in the Atlantic. It was actually last month called Airbnb has a hidden camera problem by Sydney food L and then just a couple of days ago. I have opened in tab, a CNN story about a family in Ireland who checked into their Airbnb, and then the father, I guess is technologist because he scan the WI fi network just to make sure there's nothing, you know. Unexpected connected to doing this. Yeah. Basically everyone uses Airbnb should start doing this. He discovers a internet connected camera. That is indeed connected to the network and live streaming them. And so the family immediately. You know reported this Airbnb, you know, complained about it went checked in somewhere else, and you know, Airbnb, I don't think stupor acted on it. Until it became a media story. But yeah, I'm just clearly anytime Airbnb a lot I really like it with the child it's nice to have like multiple rooms instead of just a hotel room. But I am freaked out every single time that there's a camera hidden somewhere watching me is this legal or is this part of their policy. I don't know legals the right word. But as this is kosher Airbnb is world. I mean, Airbnb says that if it's disclosed in the listing that there is a camera in the house, then it's okay. But they shouldn't have, you know, hidden cameras or cameras that are going to catch you in a state of undress or an intimate space like in a bedroom. And it definitely is a legal to, you know, secretly film people even if they're in your house. I think though, I haven't I haven't really seen this litigated yet. Right. Right. And this wasn't was this like streaming online somewhere. I don't I don't think it was streaming online. Crazily? I did see an article about how in south. Korea did see that this is like a huge country-wide problem of people just having finding hidden cameras. And livestream numb there a bunch of people who got together and had this like thousand persons strong March with with the message my life is not your porn because apparently just happens all the time. Yeah. Which is my my nightmare. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I just I mean, so cameras are already everywhere outside mostly private security cameras. Not state owned although police often have agreements with companies that have private that own a security cameras. So they they can get that feed. But this is different. This seems to be people who are kind of running cameras for entertainment not for security, and I think sometimes it somebody who's just like, oh, I'm going to have a bunch of strangers in my home. I want to know what they're up to. I wanna know if they, you know, throw a party or have more guests, and they're supposed to have those people sometimes might have a camera. That's hopefully, just outside or they might have one in there. Living room, which is certainly happened. But there's definitely some creepy cameras. That are hidden, you know, in like smoke detectors above the bed. So I also have an on nerve ING tab this week, less creepy and more. Like, why would you do this? And it is from CNBC it's entitled billionaire Jack Dorsey is eleven wellness habits from no food all weakened to a spat s-. And he's definitely he's both on a podcast recently kind of going through his life hacks wellness routine, and it's just like I barely have the time to make it to the gym. I try, but it just happened as much as I would ever like I couldn't imagine what it's like to have a kid. Try to do that some of my friends do try and are as successful him without a kid. But but Jack Dorsey meditates every day. Okay. Got it. But he only eats one meal a day of parent takes an ice bath every night. He walks to work everyday when he goes to work and back. So we're talking like hours and hours of wellness. You're right. I think he's just trying to punish himself or creating Twitter. Maybe and you know, and I'm curious hearing that, you know, one meal a day like, I don't eat a meal, and I'm just kind of get a little testy, and you know, and I couldn't imagine what it would be like if you try to eating a sandwich if that would maybe help. Make Twitter better. Right. If he would maybe have a little more focused to to make it less awful. No it could help. If you're running a. Crazy. Warren of uncontrollable activity like Twitter may be it's a very satisfying to be able to rigidly control things in your own life. I don't know. Sure, you're a billionaire you can afford to have people helping you in such a way that you can kind of take this time off to like, I don't know go grocery shopping, do all the things I rushed to do between, you know, work and needing to actually sleep eat and stuff like that. Right. But I recommend reading just because it's kind of or just like checking it out not only because it's funny and impressive. But also this is like, oh, wow. This is how billionaires who run our communications platforms early says one billionaire that's running this one communication platform that at least gives me a headache. This is how he finds peace in his life. Even if he's running a product that doesn't necessarily create a lot of peace and other people's lives. That's thought it was like, okay. This is this is what he does. Oh, he fasts all weekend. Tracks his sleep. It doesn't sound that chill. Honestly, I do think there's such a thing as the over quantify. Guide self right. Get a little too obsessed with the metrics, and I don't think that that is healthy either. Well, well that does it for our show this week. Kashmir. Thank you so much for joining us. You guys life. Dr interview with impossible CEO that is not something that's on either. But we thought it would be fun to go off track. And think about this incredibly big problem of what are we going to do about the environment? And one of the big environment is, of course consumption, please send us your questions show and guest suggestions or just say, hi, you can Email us at if then at sleep dot com. You can follow myself on Twitter. I'm Eddie for laser and you can follow. Kashmir. She's cash hill. Thanks to our guest. Pat, Brown CEO and founder of impossible foods, and thanks to everyone who has left a comment or review on apple podcasts or whatever platform used to. Listen, you really appreciate it. If then as a production of sleet and future Ted's partnership between fleet Arizona State University and new America. If you want more slates coverage sign up for the future tense newsletter every week, you'll get news and commentary on how tech advances are trained in the world in ways. Small and large saying, it's leap dot com slash future. News producer is Cameron Druze. You can find Kashmir hills work at Gizmodo. Thanks also to Jonas Strauss at survivor sound here in Oakland, California. And we will see all.