Episode 129 Conference Speaking with Karl Hughes


Came uh-huh hello and welcome to the six figure developer podcast podcast where we talk about new and exciting Technologies Professional Professional Development Clean Code career advancement and more. I am John Calloway. I'm Clayton Hunt Nash. With us today as Carl Hughes Carl is is technology team builder software engineer and startup enthusiast he cto at the Great Network and Helps Technology Speakers succeed at CFP FP land. Welcome Carl and hey could be here. Guys so Carla before we kind of jump into the Things would you just give our listeners. A little little bit of background but for yourself maybe tell them how you got started in the industry yet. It sure so I have been working with education. Technology start ups for the past eight years or so long before that we were just talking before the show about our connection is Louisville Kentucky which we all have emanated from at some level so I did my very first internship with GE appliances Global Kentucky as washing machines at my best memory or. I don't know funnest memories from at that. Time was sitting in the basement where we do the black box. Testing on. Washing machines is basically a pressing everybody in every combination that you could possibly imagine in writing it all down and then sending up to the senior engineers Tell you okay. We did a new version tomorrow. You're going to do again about the Mo- soul-sucking software about or you can do. But but at the same time you learn a lot in it was a good intro to the industry I suppose okay cool and then so what are you doing these days. You say their CTO. Yeah so more recently and have been working for the rain now for about four years. We great papers for K.. Through twelve teachers way it works. Is We have a pool of college. College students who work around the country remotely to grade essays for teachers that work with US and It's kind of a weird thing. Is that not something that other companies are doing We work with several dozen schools in the US and a couple of districts now as well so early stage startup but On it gave me the opportunity a couple years ago to start kind of I guess I got the bug start speaking and Kinda got into new architecture explaining some of the things. We had bill from the reasons that we built things the way we had You know one of the fun things were with a small early stage startup as you making a ton of Greenfield we feel that For so tune into and obviously escudo out of those up in the early days and so the great thing is that when you go and talk about Out that you can talk about the pros and cons the cons pros and so that got me into speaking couple years ago. I started by applying to about fifty eighty conferences. My first year I got seven acceptances. Six of them actually happened. One of the conferences got canceled for no fault of mine and the happens. That's one of the things you find. Is you start speaking and then at going through that whole thing finding fifty. CFP's that were submit to. I I had this huge spreadsheet of CFP's and from there. I decided to start bailing out old ones close soon to my friends who also spoke and maybe six months to a year later itself landing page and see land was born in. So that's been my side project. Last year I would imagine working in a startup open and making some of those early decisions that it's pretty easy to worry and stress about the the decisions that you make so it sounds like you didn't really worry maybe interested over a a couple of different choices in progress from there. What were some of those early decisions that may be plagued you or the You stressed about making. Yeah what's interesting. They range from the very low level. Like what database are we going to use and how we're going to index it to the very high level. What is the user experience needs to be? How do we go live? Like how often do we deliver software all kinds of things so it's really hard. I think that's one of the things that is most challenging about this role. Where in in early days? You're doing everything I found what was really helpful is to find a good group of mentors some of Chicago some of them abroad. Connect with remotely elite as well as listening to I guess. Obviously it's a big one bill so just reading books. There's a interesting book called the Architecture Open source applications that I read a couple years ago it goes through all messy and weird decisions that were aid build these huge open source projects and you just realize what you read that okay. My software is bad but also where his bat. And that's okay like that. We're all just trying to make it a little better. All the time and the business requirements are changing on this so some of the decisions Or tangible are we gonna go with the micro services architecture we're GONNA try to elevate monolith. Are we going to use separated front back in. Are we going to use. HP As as a language or we're GONNA use note as language. Are we gonNA use on or you know we're GONNA try to follow every trend of which Framework is hot today. Or we're gonNA just kind of stick with what we and those kinds of decisions are really hard to go back on. Once you've made in so you Kinda they have to live with them and there's the things you sort of learn along the way But I I really enjoy it as well so I think that it's a unique opportunity. Students a chance that you know as a lot of larger companies. Get that chance so going going back in in your answer They're just a little bit. You mentioned agent Finding mentors what processes did you use to go on and find those mentors. I mean that's one of the more difficult things to do our industries to find somebody that is knowledgeable enough and willing to help Jenny tricks or or anything that you could share. That would help people do the same absolutely. The Big One is staying in touch with people so when I realized at some point was that I I would meet people. Let's say I go to meet up and I meet the speaker briefly and I say this is a great talk and then at the end and I never talk to that person again. That's not very useful to me or the speaker and what I found was it had started off another spreadsheet I kept a spreadsheet of all the people that I sort of want to keep in touch with because maybe they were peers or maybe they were headed Munich career or little hyme in their career now and help bring along and keep in touch that has paid off dividends much greater than I can can explain so some tangible examples that I got in touch with somebody somebody who I guess this got my current job. I met the founder somewhere I liked your idea. She basically no software developer with her issues completely league. I had no idea where she was from there. We stayed in touch a few months later. She got some funding she hired on and then just recently this last month. I just hired tired of upper because I've stayed in touch with her for two years from meet UPS. We've gone to actually spoke at her boot camp that she went to and like. You can't do that unless you intentionally usually stay in touch with people so stars Reggie in when you do get the chance to meet people just kind of put an spreadsheet if you like and every six months send an email and I'd say hey how's it going when he get coffee. Grab a lunch. Maybe it takes time in it. It's one of those things that you have to invest sort of in your your your your network in in hiding mentors because it doesn't happen easily. Yeah that's what I really enjoy about. The speakers groups the user user groups the conferences. It seems like there's a really helpful networking everybody's really encouraging and supportive of one. Another the three of US used to work in Louisville Kentucky in intended the Dot net is a group there and Palooza conference in the summer or various times of the year when when it was scheduled and then still go back to that conference once a year and see the same familiar faces and and rekindle those those relationships that that we might have. I've let languish a little bit in our absence but just looking on on twitter about the the support of community on twitter and the past couple of weeks reading about a lot of our friends that have gone to the Antarctic In really looking forward to them bringing back penguins for everybody. Just you know it's really encouraging to see the community. Supportive of those. That are interested in speaking in Cherry. Yeah I would agree. I found the the speaker community to be one of the more helpful of all the technical communities and I think it sort of makes sense because when you volunteer to speak at a conference rarely do you get paid. Rarely do you get any correct Tangible benefit but you're helping hundreds or dozens of people in the audience learned something new or learn that it's okay screw up or whatever it is that you're getting to and I think that that sort of means a data transfer people who are naturally kind of helpful so I've been in some speak bigger Slack chat groups are slight groups and some groups just kind of people staying in touch with them and then like you said you see him at the same conferences. Every every year I for me is mid West is kind of by people in whenever I get to go. It's like everybody. I know I know that that will that that you know it's it's there's a lot of fun it's It gives you this way to keep in touch with people that you would be submitted to a variety of different local. Oh user groups in both national and international conferences and even even if my talk isn't submitted I usually get pretty good feedback as to wide or maybe how it could could approve it. How could approve the abstract in order to to maybe be selected at a future conference? You'd you'd mentioned that you submitted your first venture into speaking you when you submitted to a number of different places speak What types of venues were those? The first year I was not as selective as I because I am now in a partly it was. I had no idea what I was submitting. In what the conference were. If this were like if any money was going to say US I've I always felt like okay. I can speak okay but I've never ridden abstract so I had no idea what that was. That was gonNA be like anyway. I looked at a couple of. There's a few different kinds of conferences that you've in target one is the sort of regional technology specific watson eventually dot net user goes out to maybe a state or two that's like a little dot net regional conference or there's at national conferences insurance. Well same engaged in that. All these communities have wicket regional and national international conferences. So you can kind of go technology specific. And then there's some sort of ron ones. They cover a ton of things. So Code mashes a really good example It I think they have like two thousand and three thousand dollars every year. It's just wild to see and for that they cover so many different technologies nontechnical. AM technical talks that a lot of stuff gets accepted and they have like ten tracks running once. So if you want to speak those kind of big conferences cover Good and then. There's kind of leadership focused and team focused conferences so the lead developers well-known Goodwin. Has I think three locations nations now the new London New York. Ab Still Austin Texas and that kind of confidence. It's a little more like softer talks managerial talks. It's like making the architectural decisions so you get out of the technology specific softening of higher level. So all those can be good in. You have to know which talk doc goes with which conference in which audience and that is probably the hardest thing in also the thing that I screwed up the most most new speakers. Screw up what. What are some of the ways that you help speakers? Sort of got of hone their abstracts and find the find the right conferences to submit to or or went up. Yes yes so. I personally a little bit of one on one mentoring with friends who ask for help abstracts. There's a speaker slack group that I've been in. It is also a dish people do that. I've done a little of that but mostly with land mostly just about finding the open. CFP's offering bring us that give you a little advice digest a lot of things that I've learned so last year against the interview about thirty thirty five speakers who were speaking at international in Events around the country as well and I in all those interviews I kind of ask speakers some key things like how do they finds you have these Howard. They sort of selecting which ones are right for them. How what is some of the biggest mistakes? They made tips for New People. So it's really great to get all this advice and then distill it down to this one. Big Guide House built one site so with Dan. There's a big section on rating abstracts Picking the right conferences parts is and so there's a whole lot there but The biggest one is is sort of knowing who your audience is Ford. The conference in who it is for your talking so I'll give you an example. How you screw this up? I one time submitted to talk to a conference that was like a was more for Upon like that website administrators so people run through nights more press sites and They are more on the tend to be more on the design inside the administrative side and my talk was about testing distributed software systems in pretty it. It was not the right talk for that audience and got accepted which I think you know they probably got. Oh well he's going to figure out a way to merge in with the audience it no. I did because idiot so I got up there naked. Tell there's a lot of blank stares in size like okay. Am I doing it live like I got back off and like make this adjustable adjustable put this at the right in the right level. It's really hard to do if you didn't prepare for that so I'm now much more careful but you have to learn those kind of things just doing what. What types of talks did you submit in those early days so I found initially a lot of talks got exempted were ones around specific cevik technical topics kind of similar to what you give it a beat up? I think that Those are maybe a good place to start because every conference wants wants a certain number of really hard new cutting edge technical talks And as I've kind of done it a little longer I've been trying to shift the little more towards I guess like softer talks for higher level talks about decisions and managing teams lately to have been giving an pitching a lot on writing unless code. So I think one of the things that I've noticed in the last ten years of writing software that the underlying tools to get us to a workable sort of minimum. Minimum level are so much better than they were in years ago in goes even further. They were their bed or twenty years ago. So in other words you can start with a framework gives you a ton of love features out of the box research project or you can go find an API. That does a lot of things for you. You don't have to go build a converter on your own. There's another building alling. PDF converters. But I'm really lazy. And so I think it's really great. Somebody else have won twenty bucks a month for cheap compared time. That is what we're doing. I'll have to maintain inch so there's things like that strict like that. I think developers need to sort of their general. Like I must build it in. It's not built here that not it. Is it yeah. It's just A. It's hard to do that because it's either are some risks when it comes to picking someone else's technology instead of your own but there there are different risks when you build everything yourself scratch so for anyone interested in the guide that you mentioned earlier. What topics are actually covered in the guide ride? And where might they find the guide. Yeah so safety. Land Dot Com. There's a link just after the Sort of header. Dang admissions Out So it says it says like comprehensive guide to speaking at conferences. You can also look for on Google. CFP Land Guide will come up. But basically what I did was. It's kind of walked through. Let's pretend you're completely new to speaking. You've never even been to attack conference. What do you have to do to go from that to actually deliver your I talk and I I sort of started off with? Just what are Very like if you've been to a bunch after students give that section and as it goes it's like why do people wanna go speak instead of just attend. The conference ahead of the conference is actually choose their speakers so there's a CFPB process but like what are they looking for in. That kind of thing is really hard to suit to figure out until you talk to some organizer's or reads on coast more measures. They tell you it's about these things that sometimes you would expect there's finding the right. CFP is for for your. You're talking to your audience again. There's submitting abstracts in actually writing them. The sort of technical writing that goes into them and there's a lot of great tips there that opposed from other people people give away. There's actually like making your presentation and I'm delivering the slides which is a whole nother skill. It's interesting when you speak. You have to have skill sets. That are not necessarily the same field right. What you're going to talk about and then you have to actually deliver what you're talking about and make slides along the way to or some kind of visual eight and it's really hard to do all of those things? It takes a lot more time than yeah I think people into the Bait and then finally the last bit is just kind of the logistical things. You should know pay to go to your first conference. I for example sample it just kind of -ssume that when conference accepts me as a speaker that means the conference is going to happen. In the speaker the organizers will just tell me all I need to know how to to sit back and wait that is a dangerous assumption to make and I found out the hard way as well but I think it's like being proactive communication. I think there And so each of these actions kind of dies in the whole thing is about seventeen thousand words as a short book but you can kind of pick and choose the areas that you're most interested in based on where you're at your speaking journey in in your assembling this information for the Guide and putting together your thoughts and gathering thoughts from those that accept except abstracts. What are the items that we should be thinking about putting together abstracts for our talks? Yeah so some of the things that I've noticed a lot of speakers talk about besides just fitting the conference is like. Is it actually in exciting topic to you. Is it something something that you will go up on stage in deliver with enthusiasm or is it. Something you just think is like well. I can talk about that the speakers who are really sort of top opt here get really jazzed up about with at and then the other side of that is. Do you actually owed at topic so again. If you go on stage aged you just learned you walk through your first intro to react to joyal and then you just go. regurgitate stations may ask you a question. Outside of your death. It's GonNa it'd be tough and you're going to struggle in. Maybe not the you know the best place to do that On the other hand if you've been working with postcards for five years which a lot of offers sure have been working with the database for years you probably picked up two or three things that most helper somehow and you probably don't even realize that so there's these unique kernels of knowledge that people have because they worked in a certain industry or certain feel for long enough that sometimes they just take for granted. I was talking to a friend the other day he was saying. I have no idea what to speak about. And I was asking about some of his projects at work. And he says he just went through internationalizing. I never done internationalization. I've always worked for companies where we were only in the US matter but ends a huge challenge. And I was like I would love to hear that. I bet that's a talk that you could deliver every every conference in the country or the world because every developer runs into this. It's very hard is notorious the other things that come up or I. It's kind of like some of these. Things are definitely you must do. And some of these things are a little more light encouraged but not necessarily always the case so some some some speakers have talked with have mentioned. They want their talks to make the world better place so in. So maybe that means making code cleaner navient means increasing diversity. I industry maybe it means making environmental priorities more forefront of people's minds in so that can mean a lot of different things. There's no no it doesn't on every talk has make the world a better place necessarily but I think to some extent they do because hopefully people are waiting. The other one that a lot of speakers went to lasting omission is making your talks actionable and this was really interesting because a lot of talks are kind of is like the same thing I could have gotten by just reading the tutorial and I think that's a a weakness that Speakers point out with newer speakers like they don't realize they should go beyond or they should tell a personal story those kind of personal stories. And like here's the problem. Here's the solution used or very actionable whereas the whole like nick react up for the first time it's like well. I don't know that that's something you can go find that online so Trying to make that content unique is is is is a big deal but I also would not discouraged speakers from just trying even if you are giving talking something has been done a million times is it's not the most novel thing it just get up there and do it because the more comfortable you get the easier it is to deliver that next. Talk and you'll get better at a time so like anything. Thank you have to start. Goes that people beginner vase or else you're never gonna get that had created Gory Mountain at expert base which I feel like I'm still very much working working my way up now from the top so yeah I would say start at your local user group. 'cause Clayton I run a user group here in the Tampa Saint Pete Florida the area. And we're we're always very open and welcoming to new speaker so if you WanNa if you WanNa just get your feet wet maybe even see. If there's there's an opportunity to do a fifteen minute. Lightning talk they'll reach out to your local user group because I'm sure they'll they'd be more than willing to have you come in and speak. I run a meet up group here as well will end. Its as our two biggest problems or finding sponsors and speakers. And if you're willing to do those I wanted to talk to you Buddy Day Yet like you've got my phone number so I agree I think in. That's how I started to. I actually started off by giving my toxic local meet ups and out local area boot. Lucas this is another one. That's kind of a new thing. There's all these coating boot camps Coming up all over the country especially in bigger cities and they're always looking for people from ministry to come in and tell their students a little bit about what it's like actually working out there to great way to practice beginning you can give them a great way also to test your talks for it. Beginner friendless service which is is important because a lot of times they're exceptions. This lots of you want your talks to be like digestible by anyone. Even if they don't get all the the nuances every tiny little Parisian you want. You want someone who's never used technology that you're talking about to at least be able to follow and get something so I've found that really helpful to go to those Buchanan stocks there so I would get if I get blank faces there. It means I'm probably GONNA get blank faces in the conference. I don't want that so I need back. Here are just assume people show up to the conference with their blanket. Change it one of my favorite kinds of talks to give is is a more dangerous guests and fraught with peril. I thoroughly enjoy giving live. Coding talks which usually involves me starting with something. I want to show the the audience and falling flat on my face and then having to fix it in front of the audience. It's a bit of a drill in adrenaline rush and John Likes to see me fail. Let me clarify and say that I enjoy watching. Clayton's live coding demos because if if he encounters a problem it is very entertaining watching him recover and it's very very worthwhile to see how one deals with that unexpected behavior. Sure and recover from it because I've been to talk swear. An unexpected error occurred and it kind of tanked the the rest of the talk so much more inclined to be supportive and learn from how the individuals is recovering from that in the regard to live coding. Though do you have any advice that you might give to somebody surrounding live coding Either avoiding it or getting through it and and winning instead of instead of falling on your face. Yeah so this actually gives gives came up several times in the interviews did in like the others in different sources for tips for speakers and a lot of people just say they avoid live coding because it exactly of the reasons that you mentioned is that it is risky and you have to know. There's a good chance that you're going to get out there in whatever you prepare doesn't work wi fi or the video feed pick up your monitor for some reason. You can't control all of that so you're gonNA have to either be uncomfortable enough to sort of make it up as you go in. Some people are good improvisers. Or maybe you've been writing code long enough that you can just figure it out. You'll make something productive that people will get. I've also seen Jubilo flat on their face in not able to pick it back up in audience kind of jumped in and try to like one dollars got onstage with them and try to help him. can navigate through which was great. I mean again supportiveness of the community. Hopefully we're trying to help each other but you don't want to be in. That situation wishes not comfortable. So until you're very comfortable like coating onstage There's some things you can do to get yourself ready for it if you decide. Go with library one. Is You can practice beforehand with the actual equipment that you'll be using for the conference so if he gets a conference early if the day before owning up and you ask the maybe people are you should check with him beforehand. But can I go ahead plug into the Monitor and see how my lot code works. Make sure it all works with the actual lifestyle using you can have a video. The Obama up to go to which is a super great idea if I were ever doing live coding out probably give recordings tobacco two or something like that that I could just show or another Kenan method is to basically. Just give people the link in say like you know. Here's a step by step tutorial. I'm just GONNA show it Sorta show you highlights here rather than try to do it all live. which could also? That's kind of how I've done it when I've done live live. Coding is upset. I'm just going to give it to this step but if you want all the steps there get help your select for that. I should probably do some of those. Please don't it's it's so much much more but yeah there is something to be said for win. If you are a relatively new coder and you're in the audience and you see someone who's been doing this for twenty years go out there. It's screw it up it. It kinda makes you okay. I'm not the only one I know. There's now this whole like this whole world of people who code life twitch which I can't imagine you were maybe we're just to get out like and and it's very when you watch a little Cincinnati you realize first of all most what they do screen because you're just thinking and then second of all and they screw something. You're like yelling at the Monitor. It's that you missed the semi colon there. Of course they don't see it anyway so it is kind of good to show that you flaws to nap in earlier. You mentioned that it's a couple of different skills to be able to put together a talk. It's it's writing the abstract attract. It's it's putting together your notes. It's may be assembling code if it's a code heavy example or or talk in its public speaking. It's delivering the talk. Do you have any specific advice or tips and tricks in their initial delivery. Or you know like what do you do with your hands. How do you participate with the audience? How do you interact with the audience? Yeah so the actual delivery part. There's there's kind of two sides there's the planning structure side and then there's the actual mechanics of delivering the talk. So do you want to use your hands. You WanNa have a mike on your halvor schism Mike. You're holding. Are you ready for both. Because you never know. It's this is GonNa give you. I actually know speakers who bring their own. Mike's because they just WanNa know the equipment which having had a couple might screw up. It's not a bad idea in it. I'm forced to them loud enough that I think I just make up with it by the audience. I don't know that they appreciate that but August forever finger. So couple of things that came up One it was really fun was asking all the speakers. How do you prepare in those moments leading up to to get a stage? They're one of my favorites. Was Alex add things lessons CODA. He talked about going to the bathroom before the talk and he started beating beating on his chest and just yelling he won and he's like it doesn't matter what I want. Put his routine. And he's more than once walked Taylor stolen but maybe you can do that in a simpler way. I know other people listen to pump up music music or they I for me. I walk around the the conference. I'd maybe two or three conversations so I can warm up my voice or just warm up by talking motor whenever something that gets you kinda going Other people though they they sit in their room quietly until the moment they get on stage so I think a little a little bit of his finding works for you and phase on to actually get on phase ideal. You've practiced so much in in front of a mirror in with a recording of yourself a bit. It is no surprise. When you do get on stage you know your hands are GonNa do you know how many times you're hopefully going to say or not say Or a quieter Forget you're lying or whatever what I like to do is practice my opening line really strongly and then from there. I kind of have bullet points. I know I wanNA hit. I personally. Don't use Speaker Speaker notes by Nolanda speakers. Do and I think that again be really good. Helpful I find that if I happen to make it look at it too much and so I try to just kind of know my side slow but but I I think that One of the big things that came out in talking with all these speakers was that the majority of the ones who are very successful speakers do a lot out of it practice and so they make it look easy but it's because they spent a Lotta time prepping and they've been giving these talks in May have like a rotation five or six talks that they've given for years and they may have cleaned him up changed over time. But when you look in the audience really really good speaker but the truth is they've done this thirty forty fifty tops in so you give yourself a little bit of a break but also start thinking handle. I prepare myself to a point where there is no mystery when I get on stage. I know what's happening you've mentioned The CFP Land and the guy that you have Are there any other resources that you could point people to that may be looking to get into public speaking or speaking conferences etcetera. Yeah absolutely I have another page. And it's linked from the Guide and and it's the light earliest blog post wrote. It's basically just a big collection speaker. Resources the one. That always comes up. In conversation as VM. pursuer she think the face it last night she has been speaking for many years salting it. She's written books in cheesman compiling this huge open source list so if you look up. Vm Am Bresser. And I'm sure y'all can get Lincoln. The show notes. Her public speaking guide lists resources is top tier. It's even I think in mobile a couple of languages now so that's a really great one. There's also out see if I could find what it's called out delete. There's there's another another guy who has a whole website. It's got like twenty thirty pages that covers a lot of similar around. What our guide? PRECIP U. N. does It's been around while too so it's another great resource Definitely pulled a couple quotes for him in the guy too. So there's awesome awesome I'm sure that if if you can look that up we can allies including the Shannon's so we will do that to kind of go in another direction. One of the questions. We ask everyone that that we it comes on To give specific advice to people who are just getting started in the industry Maybe they're looking to like level APP or just break make into into things. What what kind of words of wisdom would you give them yet? I have been doing. These talks boot camps for several years. So this question comes up all the time that I meet with at least probably one or two bootcamp grads every week to just have they ask a copier report all of these things in the. I have several things that point to the first one is focused on meeting people because they best long-term investment in your. Oh you know yet you a lot of recent bootcamp Brad. Swallows College Guts. It's been older time applying to jobs in mass in just the spray and pray approach and you will eventually get a job when you do that. I don't mean to say that it doesn't work but it is not nearly as beneficial to getting the right job for you as his meeting people in knowing what is actually like were these places especially when you talk radio second third job so invested in relationships people in the second thing that I always tell new developers or is go deep in one language. I that's just my opinion. I know there's other people that say the other I think though that learning one language Java script or hi Connor Rubio. PHP doesn't really matter. It teaches you by going really deep knowing what that language is knowing several frameworks in it you can be really useful for for that first job so when somebody says well we'd like to hear you but you've done the how to tutorial different languages like what are you actually know you know in a real world situation you don't watch and and that's where we all started. You can focus in drill in one narrow thing it actually helps a lot and then the great thing is once you learn one language really really really. Well it's actually not that hard to transfer most of those skills. Such programming languages are not as people think. So okay How rebound if our listeners wanted to sort of follow you more a specific place on social media or what? What was that working working? I'm I'm on twitter at Carl L.. Hughes Karl spelled with a K.. So I also have the CFPB DOT com and there's newsletter. WanNa get calls for proposals. I won't helping out. New Developers. Education has always been one of my actions so I appreciate every contacted. I get to have excellent. Do you one last question. Do you have any upcoming speaking engagements that you can shut out yourself. Yeah I'll show myself. I actually toned it way down. Speaking the the last few months I had my wife had a baby fourteen weeks ago. So congratulations So anyway my next conference is in June. It's called developer first. It's sort of a tech leadership conference at the first year. They're doing it so it'll be interesting to see me and I said absolutely so. That's the next one. The developer first is what's called well. Thanks Carl really appreciate you coming on the show. Yeah thanks everybody that was Carl Hughes. Carl is a technology team builder software engineer and start up enthusiast he cto at the great network and helps technology speakers succeeded. CFP Land if you like this episode. Please he's light reight interview on I tunes fine show notes blog posted more at six figure dot com and be sure to follow some twitter at six figurative. This has been another episode of the six figure developer. podcast helping others reach your potential. I'm John Calloway. Arm Clayton Hunt Johnny Nash

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