The Skeptics Guide #693 - Oct 20 2018
you're listening to the skeptics guide to the universe. You're scape to reality. Welcome to the skeptics guide to the universe. Today is Saturday temper I twenty eight teen, and this is your host even novella. Joining me this week or Bob mills, Ella. Everybody. Maria. Jay novella. Evan burns. I everyone. Lovely, lovely room. Yes, this is our private show that were recording from dragon con twenty tnr all in ridiculous costumes care who has a wearing three d glasses. I say that's ridiculous. Qualify. Say this is going to be a special episode you'd like to experiment. When we do the private shows, it's always hard to say how much of this is actually going to end up in the actual show. It's usually about sixty percent forty percent of the stuff only you guys are going to get to here and it'll be pretty obvious why that is. Fifty percent of that forty percent is just downright revolting. Yeah, we we, you know, we are a little bit more free to say stuff and then I have to sort it all out and post production under eighteen here tonight. You're going to grow up at lot tonight. So this this is we are calling. This s. g debate club, we are going to five debates among the five of us. We can't talk about it. Each one of us is going to moderate one of the debates and the other four are going to be divided to into. We will do our audience participation throughout is well for one thing we're going to have the audience vote on what side they are on the debate at the beginning. And then at the end, we'll see how much we influenced your thinking on it. The first debate that we're going to be talking about, I mean, you have to preface the individual debates was more information, but the first one, Evan, you're gonna moderate, and the topic is, should there be limits to modifying human beings? Right? Should there be limited? So in other words, you know, is it okay if we have designer people, making unlimited genetic changes to them, you know, genetically modified people GNP's or should there be some kind of somehow limits and we'll just go from there. So taking the position that there should be restraint is Jay and CARA, and then saying taking the. The position that there shouldn't be that we should just let the chips fall where they may is in me. So Evan take it away. Let's hear from the Bob and Steve side of things going all the way. Sorry, we have to do the audience. I. Do you wanna do that? You want me to do. I'll pull the audience with a single clap, single George method. Okay, folks. So there are going to be two choices. Obviously, with this one, give you think if you're in the group who believe that we should just go full throttle all the way you'll signify by giving a single clap. When I lower my hand ready. For those of you who think that we should show some restraint in this with a single clap. As I lower my hand. Bob, and I will convince you you have your located at. We're digging. Karen, I convinced most of the audience here with just facial expressions. Just. That's what you get. So you already told you I'd like to hear from the Steve and Bob contingent on this one going all the way I so Steve and or Bob take it away. So the thing is that we're talking about genetically modifying people and we should freely explore the potential of that technology. Think of the amazing things that we get accomplished. I mean was right out of the gate genetically, there's a ton of diseases. We'll be able to radically eight straight. We no longer have is first of all any genetic disease, right? That's the low hanging fruit and then a genetic predispositions to other diseases and also just, you know, quality of life to racial by further, you know, think about, you know, you think about the range of any attribute. Let's let's say intelligence. So if you could, as a parent could ask you questions, there's a parent has a choice to genetically make your offspring. Let's say Gatica style. Well, you know, that comes with a little baggage with that. But. In terms of the type of the well. Just. Let's do this trying to win wanna have a good. Conversation, Bob, Bob, and carriage sickly. You're like, we're gonna to figure it out. We'll figure it out with fist. No, I'm saying Gatica style meet my parents went down. What color is? Do you want to enhance the parents like, we don't want to do anything to work the baby wanted as anything that would be the rare parent in this future yours you're agreeing with us then if you think most parents would want the ability to give their children, their attributes that they want, then we should allow them. They should have the right to do that. Why would we hold it most there? So many fallacies and what you just said? No. I'm saying that if we lived in a future where that became the norm, I think that most parents would not be it would be like the parents now who don't want to know their gender. It's rare, right? Like I just want to wait and see even that we have technology that allows me to eliminate this a Luddite reaction in new technology. People will realize that it's powerful and positive thing. They would want to do it. Think about this. If you had a gene for a disease or predisposition or just some characteristic that is going to make their life. Harder you. You want to give your kids the best of your own jeans. Right? Why wouldn't you white roll the dice? Why have it be completely random when you could we're not talking about the best of your own. We're talking about engineering, the best of any available. So once you agree though, that you could give them the best of your own jeans, why is it fair to your kids that you don't have that great jeans to give them that those parents have better genes to give their kids? Why shouldn't you be able to give your kids their genes? And because it's the same question of why wouldn't it be fair to just call everybody who's below a certain intelligence level and maintain a certain level within the population, it's your jenex arguing for your jenex, but almost nothing like killing anybody and just talking about rather than playing the the rolling those genetic dice, let's take a little bit of control over it and produce the the people, the best people that we can or that that parents want. I would say I would say actually, I would be willing to modify my position if we were predicated this on the fact that there were equal opportunity for everybody in the planet, which. Any technology. So we shouldn't any technological advantage because it's always going to go to the wealthy. I and there's always going to be a differential and who can afford it. There's another, he's it's another logical fallacy and I just suck logical fallacies. I don't know. Got I got it. It's called the s hole. Halcion being serious saying that we shouldn't adopt that technology because it's only it's going to be another thing that separates people. It's the internet's, let's get rid of the internet because now there are the digital divide right between the digital heads and the digital had not Jason broadband much better than mind. Band is very big. Bob's very small. But you see the work I get done. I mean, it's gotta work three times as hard I think is because. Part of it I think is is because the child has no choice in the matter. I think it's the same argument that you're seeing now with a better understanding of gender issues of trans issues, right that historically, if a child we're born intersex for example, the surgeon might make a decision based on what was medically most simple and the child often grew up with very difficult ramifications of that because maybe their gender identity didn't match their biological sex at that point because that decision was made for them. And I think that a good argument for this would be looking taking an actual taking actual data from, for example, the deaf community. I don't know if anybody in here has friends who are deaf, but it's very common within the deaf community to actually choose not to get a coke Leary implant because there's a lot of pride within the deaf community of being deaf. It's actually one of the few things that within the medical and psychological verbiage labeling, we don't say we people with blindness now or maybe people with borderline intellectual or. You know, we don't even say mental retardation we're, but you would never call somebody blind person with blindness like that's just how it's volving. But within the deaf community, it's still deaf people because it's a choice and it's a label that many of the people within the community put on themselves and there's pride in it. There's, you know, there's a language that comes along with it and there's a culture that comes along so they should be able to choose. Yeah, but the problem is how do you choose for a person who doesn't have those capabilities yet because they're not yet born. We do that a lot. There are a lot of choices that parent the parents make. Parents could choose to circumcision and. I mean, there's a lot of decisions that parents have to make. And unfortunately, you know, we see parents making horrible decisions all the time. Here's a point. One thing that I found interesting is that for me, the low hanging food is obviously the genetic problems and diseases, but but there are other things that aren't as cut and dry. For example, happiness there from the studies that I've read, their people have a point of happiness and generally whatever happens in your life, you're not going to go too far away from that set point sitting right now for a long. So say your point is eighty. Whatever that means you could become a billionaire over night and go up to here. You could become a quadriplegic overnight and be down to here, but eventually you're going to kind of go back to your set point. So so that's kind of like something that that is determined for you at birth that will probably will not change what if you could reset that and make and make set your happiness up a couple of matches, and you will always be a fairly happy person no matter what no matter what happens to you. So those are things that are medical genetic anomaly that recognized, but it's something that that we could modify that clearly not a disease recognized disease as right now. Anyway, don't you see this kind of. The argument of like, what if we looked at intelligence as if it were a medical concern, right? Medically treating intelligence, we see it with people with, for example, down syndrome that part one of the symptoms of down syndrome of that entire constellation of symptoms is an IQ below a certain level, right? And obviously we see that as something where we love for people with down syndrome to be able to be treated in that way. I can't imagine most parents wouldn't want to make that decision rights. This is an argument for what you're saying, but at what point does that become and when are we just creating a society where everybody's saying he is not very interesting, scary part, you know, same never be the same human anymore. Everyone's going to be the same people. People have predilections in various directions that they would want to augment intelligence artistry, sympathy, things that that not everyone will will want to do. I mean, just just look at this look at the obsessive passionate people in dragon con. I look at people. I'm like, wow, they spent months on that costume and I'm just not into that. But that's. They're passionate and I love it. That's their passion. And that's how it would be. I think, for these augmentation where people were just going different directions based on what they're what they're passionate about. Well, I think one interesting point to be brought up is that, for example, people with autism tend to have the ability to do extra. You know, how do you put it like they could be very good at certain things? Yeah. Yeah. There's the the neuro diversity so effort is on that spectrum. There are people that have that have aspects that are that have autism that are like incredible at physics and things like that, and it would be scary to me to like, you know, could be in one generation like just get rid of all those people, and then we're losing. We're losing a brain trust. We're losing support your activity to support your argument. Maybe I shouldn't even do this. The guy that developed Torrance, we've all heard of torn. The guy that developed at the I wrote the first version of that. He was on definitely on the spectrum aspects and his wife's like this guy. He could sit in focus in code for twelve hours and she just wouldn't stop him. He would do thing. He was under spectrum, and that's one of the reasons why he could focus from released would never have come about though. That's something that would have. But what you're saying is interesting because we, we're also not even having conversation about unintended side effects. Maybe if you do increase genetically your focus, an increase genetically your intelligence, you might be screwing with somebody's empathy. You might be screwing with somebody capacity for attention shifting. You might, you know, it's like how much of this zero sum game and how much of it is additive. That's. Sciences made a determination. We don't know. That's why you know, when were we were discussing the debate idea and I thought, you know, how do I feel about it like I'm all for genetic enhancement and doing it. I just think it needs to be very well measured in regulate considered dangerous. This is a hugely because you've got to think about it. They change you genetically right? And then you're passing that on to the next generation. Like it becomes part of the germline if it's true, but if it's a Matic cells than it's not German, it's not. It's not gonna be inherited. It could go either way. Which cells in the body here actually affecting. Right. Just just to clarify. Yes. So so Matic genetic changes change yourself, but they won't get passed onto your kids because the germ, so your sperm egg have not been affected that only happens after, but it could be the other way too. Drive it. That's why everybody's really scared of the mosquito, the crisper mosquito gene, Diddy back to the kids can't make this choice for themselves true of every child. Nobody gets to choose what genes born. Labral. True. So. To be born with whatever jeans fate dealt you or genes that your parents chose for you. And if the technology develops to a certain point, you could change your own genes at some point in your life. Don't you think it's one of those functions of like we live in the society we live in now. So we're thinking of this through the in the context of if this will happen tomorrow and nothing else change. It's like we often talk about electric or self driving cars. That scares the shit out of me if other people are still on the road, right? But the minute that all cars are self driving cars, it's like a utopian future. And that's really the problem is this available to everybody? Are we living in a society where everybody has to care? It's not gonna come that way. The flick of a switch that gets it. I mean, it is going to be rolled out my envy rolled out billionaires to Silicon Valley. What Israel will work talk about IBF right. Same thing, exact same arguments against in vitro fertilization. Oh, this is we're paying. God is going to create. It was going to be under scope of their whole life or heard that argument a lot. It's only gonna be available for the rich, partly true. You know. We generally accept that. Yeah, this is another option that some people have. And why would you take that option away? Because it feels achey. It's new. It's messing with biology are not valid concerns. Basically all the same concerns about genetic manipulation. It's just a new. The next new thing that we're not comfortable with that will become, let's talk about, like I want to visualize some weird level that this can get you because this is the part that that truly I think is going to be. It could be very disruptive to our culture like, but Bob and I like to share pictures of each other about people that modify themselves. There's people that want to be cats. There's people that want to be whatever. But I mean EV, it's going to happen. I mean, if we if we can modify ourselves, we're in some type of cyberpunk future where people can look the way that they want to kind of like, you know, the way they would be avatar in a VR reality. Dragon con twenty eighty five. But there's also a cat the cat, who cares? That's how I feel about it. Yeah, I, I don't know. I the pheno type. I'm not concerned about what I'm really concerned about his equality. That's always, but you know, it's a social Justice component of this. That's always, what are you this more equality because eventually people. Yeah, right. I just think that the transition has to be highly regulated. That's my biggest concern. I wouldn't want that the the richest among us can go buck wild with this and they're the ones that are coming up with the regulatory processes because that worries me. I think we still have to have a social Justice lens on when we attempt this. And yeah, I think that then we're on the same team. The first batch of immortals are going to be the richest people on the planet. That's a whole other conversation goes, I think I think they're going to regret that decision. I see that cartoon that the guy gets opens. Genie comes out and Jeannie says, you know, you gotta wish. I wish I were mortal and granted than in the next frame. It's like thirty trillion years. Make space day. What you wishing to carefully. You guys have any, like sort of wrapped up sort of. Right. You get the last point. Chewing. We've seen it where it's good, and we've seen it where it's really bad. Be like at home, and I'm like, I'm going gonna be a cat today. You know what I mean? So we have to put this to be on rails. We have to be very careful about it. We also have to test it. You know what? If we changed someone who was talking about not testing, it is be. I get that is that you know, it's not willy nilly. He set this up. I do think it has to be very regulated and very, very carefully scoped out. So we're not the entire scientific community agrees with us. I mean, we know based on the laws that are place right now that that that's all I don't think we're saying being hairless quality. He's more of no artificial limits. Let people choose what they wanna do to their kids to themselves genetically. No. No, no. We have to, we would have to come up with a set of rules. It's like, you can't. You can modify your child in these ways. You know, we don't want people like I want my child to be a cat child. No people. Ladies. We wanna Trump person. Trump person chunk watch frigging Morty. Okay. Let's do another vote. Let's do another. Okay. So let's see this. Had any influence on what the audience thinks. So for those of you who think we should go full bore full throttle with this as I lower my hand, you will clap ready. And for those of you who want to take the much much more slower gradual approach. I think it was. Definitely. And I think in the future because of course we came up with all of these today and they're a little nebulous. We should also be better defining what these terms mean. Because I think with restraint will pretty much, of course. We're partly playing devil's advocate here. Really good at it chose what side you wanted to be on, but then we had to balance it and there were a lot of them were like, you could take either way. I don't think the side this. I don't think the side so we are doing devil's advocate kind of coach doesn't necessarily mean that we all agree with these are not necessarily the policies or rules. All right to the second debate carry your moderating, and this one is is college for everyone. And is it worth it? Meaning is, should we have college be available for everyone for free. No, this is not a question of whether or not college should be a social program. This is a question of whether or not the experience of college is a worthwhile endeavor for every person on the planet, or they're people who can just as easily get the information become high-skill, do whatever without going through a four year traditional college program. Yeah, you're pros say Nyerere pro and anti college. So just to be clear because I think this could go down a lot of rabbit holes. We're not asking a question about what should be a capitalist versus a socialist and ever. This is not a question of, should college be included, you know, with tax payment or should it be privatized all this things colleges, what it is in American culture, at least we all in this room are comfortable with that many of the people listening from outside of America, maybe laughing at us right now, and we may be crying deeply inside with as we pay our college loans. But the question is we're doors, tuitions or our kids. Yeah. But the question is, should everybo-. Go to college, and if they do is that investment of their time, possibly their money worthwhile for them or other people on the planet for whom college doesn't make sense. And even I guess further than that kind of the the Peter Thiel argument, right? Like are there ways that you can actually become more competitive and be more learned if you if you don't go the traditional route? Can you access everything you need on the internet? For example, we live in a very different world than we did fifty years ago. So Jay and Steve or going to argue that college is for everybody in that it is worth it, Evan, Bob, we're going to, I wrote anti college. That's quite the new the argument. Yes. Clarify something. Yes. So is it is the premise here, like we want to give it to everyone for free. So let's just assume that we have the exact same structure in American society that we do right now. Should we be pushing every kid who goes through the academic system to feel like they have to go to college costs. Good for everybody, regardless of who they are, what their plans are always going to be better prepared for life if you're okay to college for you, do this other thing, yeah, or, oh, this is what you wanna do for a living. You don't have to go to college jump into the industry right away or go to a vocational school, something like that. So for those of you who think colleges for everybody and it's totally worth it, whatever that means single clap. Okay. And for those of you who think that college is not for everybody and for some people, it's totally not worth it to put in the time and the money single clap. That's that's. That's a little surprising. Yeah. Okay. So let's start with our will. You know what I'm gonna flip the script. I was going to start with the pro college camp because I thought that would be the overwhelming positive, but go ahead and start with Bob and Evan who thinks that maybe college isn't worth it for everybody, and maybe their arguments are similar to those of the audience. I think that there are numerous examples that make Bob's and mind position. The correct position in this particular argument. We have some very obvious cases of that. The Mark Zuckerberg case is probably the one that a lot of people in this room are very familiar with just the college. He went to college, but he did not finish. I don't think he got his degree is if if if I recall to Harvard earned his way in, but that is by no means definition of the success that that that he is definitely achieved. Mark Zuckerberg again, founder Facebook face Billy's. Yes, right, right. One of the wealthiest people and most well known people on the planet, certainly. And there are other examples there. There are plenty too many to go to to go through has not you guys. So do I. Pointing because medicine, we call that your topic brain. Topic means something the rain outside of words, the left topic brain. Output in a little bit. When we're here. Look for for most people colleges a large expensive. It's a huge expense. I mean, there are people who obviously get in on the highest of merits and earned the scholarships, and that's all. That's all well in great. But for a lot of people, it costs them and just for having an undergraduate degree could be on the upwards of a quarter million dollars in in some cases, it varies depending on the state you go to depending on the institution, you go every European listeners minds right now they're trying. They're crying for us very upset. And that means what debt. Because a lot of these people who are going into the undergraduate college program, they just don't have the money upfront. So what do they have to do? They have to take loans out in order to pay for it, and that takes a long time to pay back with interest. Let's not forget the interest rates that are, why are I have a credit card? Yeah, I have a credit card that has a lower interest rate than the student loans that they offered me. This year at school. Here's the latest cystic I came up with may two thousand eighteen forty, four million Americans owed over one point, five trillion dollars in student debt. A sixty percent of them have a graduates have loaned at balances equal to sixty percent of their annual income. So these are people who are having an extremely hard time getting out from under and in some cases they're not getting out from under in facts. And sometimes you have your parents or your grandparents cosign these loans, and then they become also responsible for that debt. And then that has an impact on their financial situation as well in which they will go as far as, for example, garnishing the social security that your grandparents receive and burned over their lifetime. It has to come directly out of that money that they're otherwise getting to stay alive and they're older in their old age. I know we have probably quickly quickly. Sorry. Do you have anything to add to that argument because you're about to. I think we should off flip the bird to all colleges and universities. It's ridiculous what they're doing. If you look at inflation track inflation, it goes like that college tuition goes something crazy. Why are they doing that? Because they can't because the funds were made available in like, hey, let's Jack up these tuition costs because we can't. It's ridiculous. And a lot of these, these poor kids that are under trillions of dollars. It's not because it's bad, it's bad loan, it's because it's so damn expensive. It costs so much money because they're just taking advantage of the system. It's it's ridiculous. Oh, anything it's just it just makes. I just love the idea this a little person that would be okay. My daughter got a sixty thousand dollars scholarship to her to her college, and it was it barely made a dent. It was like, okay, that's nice. You know, fifteen years ago, sixty grand would have been wonderful, but it's it was just a drop in the bucket. It's really pathetic with doing. And also it's interesting college really isn't that that necessary. If you look at when you go to go to a job interview and they want to, they want to know that you that you you went to college. Why not? Because you know more because you really, you know, a lot of cases you enough after high school to get a lot of these jobs that they really want to do this and some, there's put it at four fifth. So the reason why they do this because they want to make sure that you're able to go through the arduous process of college and that you can conform and do hard work. But you could prove that in high school, you don't need to prove that again in college. It's really, I think it would be much better to to focus on the career that you want to focus on. My ex wife became a nurse in just like sixteen months because you focused just on the on the nursing curriculum. And not, you know, physics and and English, and all the other things that aren't really related to her. You can learn that stuff outside of school. I mean, I think technical was going to come back and online learning. Don't even get me started about online learning. That's an amazing opportunity that's much less expensive and sure the social aspect isn't there and but a lot of kids go to college. I mean, basically, they're, they're getting drunk and it's a huge social thing, and that's fun. And just some somewhat of a growing learning experience in that, but you can get that other ways without spending, you know, sixty thousand dollars a year to hang out and get drunk with your friends and and blow up your homework. I just think this this model, it's going to be slowly dying. Lots of people have been talking to me about they should have more technical schools because I don't know anybody that that went to technical school thirty years ago. That was more of the case. It kind of died off and I think it's gonna start coming back. It's just so frustrating to see what's happened since we went to college and what's going on now. So in the anti college camp, the main argument that we've heard so far is. Financial one is that somehow the the cost, the return on investment return on investment release, and we've heard a couple of other arguments to employability things like that. But the main ones to be a financial one, the pro college team I would say, should do you have an answer to that question but be? Are there any other reasons why you should go to college in spite of the fact that it's expensive? Well, there's no doubt the cost is crazy, but that's something that we need to change socially. We fix that problem. Totally agree. Like it's the tuition, your kids go to college. That'd be worse. I'm looking at it more. I get that the money thing is huge. It's nut that needs to be cracked and it's and it is just bullshit politics and people. Demand or your self inflicted wounds. I mean, it was a reaction to a lot of the the tuition program, so people more people had money to pay tuition. So colleges were able to raise their prices on people, which is why you get this big disparity right where the most expensive colleges are grievously expensive. But I do feel like we're kind of ignoring here the fact that there are affordable the the community colleges like, you know, my wife went to a community college. There are a lot less expensive, and there are very good programs that you know, every state has them. Those things need to be taken everyone. Let's go to Harvard, right? Yeah, right. And also like bring up Zuckerberg. There's one of those guys. There's one guy that did that. That's how many, how many more Burg's are there like that guy was more than, you know? Well, there's a lot of them, but the point is that you know he left school early like it's to me, it's not a very good argument like there's anybody else that too. I was going to think Zuckerberg is more of an argument, our side, then you're Jay's right? He's an outlier, and that's the exception more than the rule. But even if you take him as the rule, maybe he wouldn't be so much of an asshole. If you had a full liberal arts education, what I mean? So Zalka persisted. If he's making a lot of money, doesn't mean he had nothing to gain from the full liberal arts college experience. He finished. It would be a little bit different, you know? Yes, deficits in his in his life that could be worse would have been worse, not nothing's a panacea necessarily that it's going to work for everyone. But if you look at the, you take people coming out of high school, the idea that everything could be achieved by the end of high. School? No, not not into this hot college freshmen. Exactly. Destroy man, who said that you'll you were saying that whatever people accomplish accomplish by the end of highschool? No. You were saying that they might be education academically prepared for the workforce? Right. Part of my point was ever worked with people who have high school. You made a reference? Oh, I mean, think about what did you learn in college? I mean, you don't count. I mean, all right. Jay, and what we learned what we learned you kinda went. It was like, technically he went and learned your specific, your host. I know. I mean. Right? That's a waste. Has a legitimate point out of three college graduates had a job that required a high school diploma or less, but not just talking about getting a job, we talking about what kind of person are you? How can you, right? You know how literate are you? Right? Can you know what? What's your experience in terms of just worldliness? You know how a lot of people when they go to college, that's the first time they need anyone who is not their race, right, where they're from. They're very, very narrow. Yet demographic is the first time they get exposed to people like really people think other things in the thing that things that I grew up with. Let me throw these guys quick bone choke them with that bone in here that went to college. Are you using your degree in European just re really quick, yes or no? Using your degree? I mean, that's about what over. Who who isn't using their degree. So I'm surprised that it would turn out that way. Because I graduated with a degree angles. Majority are using their degree. Their degree. Like I'm thinking of it like you went to school for First Pacific thing, and you learn that and then you turn that into career. I went to school and I majored in English, and I actually handcrafted and focused my degree on poetry, which I joked about it my whole life, my God, I had a degree in poetry. You know, it's like talk about like that and philosophy, and where's that going to get you? But I now that I look back on fifty years old and I look back and I'm like, man, that English degree helped me on every single thing. I did my life, but I have a marketing degree. What the hell my doing with that. Who's been, but socially, but socially too. There's a lot of things that happened during those are very formative years. I mean, I think there's something to going to school and being exposed to a lot of new thoughts. Really universities are supposed to be this mind-bending experience where they're learning about things that you know, we were lucky. We grew up in a household that was revolving around education. We had a word of the day and we had these intense discussions around the dinner table. There are people that grew up. I remember that word. Yes, but there are people that grow up. They don't have siblings might be in a small town. They don't have any intellectually impoverished. Yeah. But after after high school you don't college is the only way to get diversified, but it's it's again, I think having on rails though, giving people that opportunity, encouraging people to get a higher education, higher education. I'm going to frame this question slightly differently because I do. I think that sometimes when we do these kinds of debates, we straw man each other where we're like, but don't you agree that it's like, yeah, but we all agree on that, but maybe let's ask a different thing. Right? Can you get all of the things that you would get out of college now that we live in in technologically advanced society online. Yourself a college, get a lot of it, but not all of it. You could obviously loot a lot online, but there's nothing. There's no substitute for the mentor student experience, right. There were just things. There is institutional knowledge, cultural knowledge, like it's transmitted from professors to students. You need that relationship and you can't really get that online. I think online radio VR greatly. But that's a, but that's still a call it. There are online call ges. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying you're YouTube and look at whatever where there's no professor teaching you personally. Doesn't in VR. You could. You could actually, I agrees in the future. I mean, basically talking about virtual college, so it's not a fair comparison. What'd you get to that point? But the thing is, there is something unique about the teacher student relationship that you can't substitute for. Sure. Yet they're out lives. Real people who are geniuses who don't need anything that's broken that we've talked about on the show how how the whole dynamic of the lecture and the student listening to the lecture is crap is not a phase two colleges over dappling to that. Yes, they are. I'm I work at one and we. Sleep. We worked our curriculum to account for that. Well, how how many, how many following jails lead yell. It was gonna lead. Do all this. All of this coming from the guy who's daughter when Ashley his daughter left for high school. I wouldn't say she was meek for college for college, so these college, but she was a little girl. She goes away in her first semester. She came back a completely different person. Then she goes to Patagonia this last semester. So she just finished her second year. She went to pedagogy for a whole semester. It blew her mind. Everybody's minding the family about what happened to her. Then she spent the whole summer at Alaska and another school flipping burgers. So. Strom in or. And I know you're arguing harder than you probably feel on the inside, but I won't say talking. The debate a thing about going to the school. A lot of people use the connections that they make in college as well to help them in their careers. I mean, first off belong, I didn't belong to a sorority or or any of that. But those relationships for the people that have are usually impactful and then making relationships with professors in the field. People that are teaching in the can get a lot of that at technical schools as well. You're focusing on the career. You want to do research with professor. I don't think so. I'll give you that. Some things require the. I've a couple of the points. You don't have a lot of time from really having a chance to answer all of them. So I one fallacy in hearing here is the idea that college to work for everyone in order for it to be worth it for everyone that's like saying preparing for only eighty percent of people who have this surgery have a good outcome, but you have to do it on everyone to get those eighty percent, right? No, a head of time who's going to come out of college with the good outcome, right. The point is you never know what's going to happen when people get exposed to poetry or new ideas. Gonna happen. You take courses in college where you know you take courses in college. That might expose you to this guy knows what he's talking about, whereas in high school at your, you know, just doing the basics. Let's face it, your chances of getting exposed to a professor really inspire you with this new area of knowledge. You didn't know. I took courses in college on subject. I knew nothing about that just changed the way I look at information about about things. Sure. I mean, did you see some of the courses that your all your daughter was offered in highschool at ashtrays court? She was had chances for robotics and astronomy. She had a mazing course. Could still. With teachers different denigrating high school teachers. Rates. High school teacher is a high school team way. Our Mr. coffin, our physics teacher in high school. He. Arrive. Never. A private high school you moron. That guy was good as a college professor what? No he was. He was refused. It's good as you get for a high school science teacher, but he was not as good as a college. What we've started to do is we started to turn this into a conversation that's kind of like is high school enough when I guess I would be more interested in a conversation about each formal education necessary, verses self guided exploration, traveling the world, experiencing things that maybe you can't get in a class like it's interesting to hear that Ashley is going to go. But a lot of people choose to defer college for a few years or to not go at all because they want to go to Europe because they wanna go experience other cultures, or you look at Jane Goodall of the world's. She didn't have a formal education. You look at Charles Darwin. He didn't have a formal education. So the question is, are those outliers, or if we viewed that maybe there's opportunity outside of the. Even John. You're right. There's more information in out there in the world. I mean, I think we are extending our education part of immune. I teach in medical school for years is up anymore. There's just too much to teach kids. We had to figure out a way, make different choices about what we're going to teach genetic mutation. You could absorb. The adage has kind of become that the college degrees, the new high school diploma bare minimum for a lot of different kinds of jokes about. At that point. Point to make. It's really awesome being Steve's team. I won't let I will let one single sentence counter point. Okay, Evan, Jay, and Bobby. I have. I have a degree. You have a degree with the loading. We all. In that time in that time, I was never required or encouraged to take a class on logic, critical thinking only right or any of the other tools that I have come to learn about through only the skeptical movement, which I only picked up after I got out of college. And that to me is really when my formal education started only after I got out. All right. We're gonna do another vote on that now, and we're going to start by a single clap. If you believe that. College is for everybody and college is worth it. Lou college is not for everybody, not work. It worth it about the same needle. All right. Well, everyone we're gonna take a quick break from our show to talk about one of our sponsors this week, the great courses plus, hey guy. So I think we would all agree that now more than ever. It's critically important to challenge what we think we know stained formed and learn as much as possible. You can do that by watching and listening to the great courses. Plus with this, you get access to their huge library of Alexandria, quality library of lectures, presented by word winning experts. You can binge on entire courses of twenty four lectures in a weekend where you can bop around check out specific ledgers that you want from specific courses. The great courses plus has over ten thousand lectures and more edit all the time. You can watch from your smartphone, your tablet, your laptop, TV, your pip- boy, three thousand your Tri quarter, or you can just stream the audit with the great courses plus app, Evan. Do you know what next wells demon is? Oh, gosh, the name Maxwell. I know, but I'm not familiar. Would you would if you listen to the course impossible physics beyond the edge by professor Benjamin Schumacher. This is a fun way to look at some of the most interesting ideas in physics, like Maxwell's demon or quantum tunneling absolute zero. What's absolute zero all about lots of topics like that. An excellent course highly recommend it and we know you're going to enjoy the great courses plus for a limited time. Only s you listeners will get a full month of unlimited access to their entire library for free. But to start your free month, you must sign up at the great courses plus dot com. Slash skeptics so sign up for this special offer today at the great courses plus dot com. Slash skeptics guys. Let's get back to the show you guys enjoying the debate thing. Light. One now wars. The fluff one just to cleanse. Death, fluffy. It's pretty awesome, but all right. Yes, the political debate of our times this debate number four is book versus movie. Which medium is a better than you for telling stories, especially the kind of stories. So Jay is moderating and on. The pro movie side is evident, I and on the pro book side is Bob, and that's why I heard you guys to use examples that we would people. Oh, I didn't know that also. I definitely want to hear from the audience on this, so don't be afraid to to let someone chime in. And I would like to start by hearing the pro book side, how about polling the. Okay. So if you think that books if you think that books are better vehicle for storytelling, right. That's basically what we're talking about. We're talking about was the book better than the move. That's our. We're also gonna talk about, like, did you read the Harry Potter books which was better but what we're saying and then so if you think that books are better clap, when my hand goes down. Do you think that movies are better clap. Everyone that that just clad for the movies, please stand up. I, I. We understand. All right. See someone who works in the movie, Steve. This could be a heavier discussion than than, you know. So yes, I think we're gonna go heavy on this. Okay. So pro pro book people speak, I, that's a spa. You want to start. You want me to start. Can't refuse to start every damn time. Gonna start this think of the way better. I know it's just it's obvious. Oh, I can see that. This is so obvious people come on. I mean, look, I conduct example that we always talk about is Harry Potter Steve. I always remember Steve's watching Harry Potter because we would watch it and we eventually I got so into it. When I when I realized this isn't a kids book. This is this is awesome, fun literature that you could really get into. So we would go, who's the book came out? I would run this is going to be tangent. Okay. Whatever it's fun I would. I would run out and I bought the book for my mom, my wife, my mother-in-law and the audio book for me because I listen, I love great narration. And that would drop. And I would drop it off at night at midnight watching these these geeky kids running around and costumes. And I kind of laugh at them little. Did I know going to drag kind of. Every drop it off at their doors when they got up the next morning that have the book and right there, how awesome son and son-in-law was I. And of course, I, I would listen to drive around for an hour. Let's listen to it so so wonderful. And listen to the second. We're saying, you listen to audio books. Michael, what was his name? Is name was. Jim was who's of the performance performance. Additional. Crap. Carries. That's what I thought we heard three hard copies for only a quarter. Okay. So I would I would. I would get the book I and I and I really loved. So then I would see the movies, Steve did the opposite. I mean, it wasn't a good sooner son-in-law anything like that, but he would. He would wait for the movie and he would see the movie and I was, I would be the book and and we. I was a good movie, but damn, why do they cut all this awesome stuff out? And Steve would be like that movie was fantastic. And then he would go read the book and wow, the book is fantastic, and that's what he. So so I mean this, this is so much more detail and development in the book that's a standard. It's it's kind of like, what's the word I'm looking for? It's it's everywhere. Everyone would agree that, yeah, this is so much more detail in depth in the book and sure the movie was fun and interesting and explosions, and maybe even some nudity. It wasn't compared to. You cannot get a fifteen hour audiobook. Okay, put it that way. You get fifteen twenty audiobook into an hour and a half two hour movie the it's diluted and and and interesting, but not all that. Thank you. Which side I gotta make my point I wrote. I think the main takeaway from Bob's argument is that the the book has more richness to it, right? There's more going on in a book. There's only so much you can capture into two hour movie. So you find the certain plot points or completely left out. A lot of times they're things that aren't true to the book they have to add for visualization purposes level, blah, for I think right there we could mic drop if we wanted to. I would also say that. Books in deuce a creative experience that cannot be captured by a film. And the reason for that is that the film makes all those decisions for you. And in a book, even though the author may use a lot of very descriptive language, I'm going to use who who in here read the Martian before they saw the Martian. Okay. So I think this might be a good example because it's a modern example. Mark watt ni became a larger than life character in my mind. And then when I saw the movie, Mark watt, ni was Matt, Damon, and I really liked Matt, Damon think he was a wonderful casting. I actually thought the movie was brilliant. But if I had seen the movie, I when I went to read the Martian, it would always be met Damon, and there would be aspects of Mark Wotton that were either missing or chosen for me because of that. And so I think not only is there more available in the book. The book also induces a more creative experience for the reader, which ultimately, I think is more psychologically health. I think we actually get more out of reading than we do out of watching film. That's not to say films are bad. I love films and there are examples of books where the movie was probably better. Yeah, exactly. But I do think that ultimately the idea of reading a book and the things you get out of reading a book are superior to what you get out of watching. That's my argument, those good, good opener guys. I don't think there's mic drop happening. Evidence d, we don't think anything right now. Got it. Let me just by saying Kerry ignorance slip. Where that gritty one for anyone. Right. All right. No question. There's no question that books and film are different media? Yes, they're different and they have different strengths and weaknesses, and you pointed out some of the strengths of books that you can get inside the head of the characters more. You're more inside your own head and there's more detail I have to grant all those objectively. True. But you're just looking, you worked hitting cherry picking the criteria that are that are different about the book films have lots of advantages over books, and we have to point those out as well. First of all, it's not fair to judge a film by the book. It's completely different. It is when you're doing a film versus book debate. Care? No, no. But even then when my point is to say, oh, there's stuff in the book that weren't that wasn't in the film or they had to change us for the film. Of course they did because the film is not a book. It's a different way of telling story in conveying information, and you have to put it. You have to optimize the storytelling for the film, and it's unfair and inappropriate and anti intellectual. I would argue. It is. It's it's completely ignorant of film to say that, oh, but this film is a ding against it because it didn't have this, whatever the stuff that was in the book. Of course it doesn't. It's film where they can, but it's not a standalone film. It's based on a book. Phil reply based on a book can still be a great screenplay based on the book. It's not the film of the book, right? It's never film based on the book, but you have to judge the screenplay as a screenplay that had that is sourced from some other original material. That's it. When you understand film as an art form, there are so much more going on and I disagree that you're that there's less intellectually engaging on the part of the of the consumer with a film than a book. That's only if you are opposite quality. You know there's good flicks and then there's film just like there's dime novels, and there's literature, right? It's the same thing. So you can't compare literature to flex to compare apples to apples. A great film is has so many different layers of artistry and subtext and you're experiencing on so many different levels that I think that it is a much more engrossing. I think it's a much more engaging form of storytelling. And you know, you forget about just pure entertainment value of it. And for certain stories, it works much better than the book. And I've seen I've seen plenty of movies where, yeah, that was the book was okay at the screenplay which is better than the puck, right? Whoever wrote the screenplay did a better job. I would argue for example that like the there are certain advantages to the h. b. o. version of game of thrones over the novel because not the, you know, Martin got lost in his own weeds and and HBO riders tighten that shit up good. You know for the for this series, but you could debate that, but whatever. I, that's just one example that comes to mind and I've seen I've seen there plenty examples that were, I think that's a great screenplay. Who cares what the book said, who just forget the book. It's a completely different, medium comparisons. It's just in my opinion, it's just naive to try to. Why are we? Why do we even think of this. Bait, right? That's a better venue of storytelling. I think that what I understood who by the way I did pitch this item. I understood it to be the book versus the movie of the same story if you want to go to that. I mean, so yeah, but that's fine. We can even just limit it to that, but then you still have to compare the movie as a movie, not you can't say what? What did a better job of telling the story, the book the film, of course, the book did. That's what, but that's. That's how you really framed your position. My point, you have to say, what, what told a better story? What was a better storytelling experience this shoot a bit versus miniseries? We're on a good track is actually discussion. I want to hear from Evan. I'll just add a couple points to what Steve says regarding the experience itself. How about the soundtrack of move? How can you possibly get that with with the book audio book. Not not even with audio book. Have you have to you have to add the visual experience? I think go. Weren't experience. Go take a peek. We're going to wait for me. Yeah, let me let me make a quick all talk. Oh, quick. Stop talking about what your book. The gap a little bit, and we're not talking about the gap. I'm not gonna talk about it. Don't touch me like that. There you go. I really do go to audio books because it is yet a different medium because we've listened to audio books their audio books that all by themselves or their own thing. They're not the movie, not the book, right? But the point I was going to make was, Evan was saying about having a visual statement, movies, making visuals statement. There's a word called imagination. I see pictures in my head when I. But what about the soundtrack? I don't know how you can possibly get it any other way except the medium of movies, television and so forth. How about special effects, Bob, you love losers. I can hear them from here. I don't want those in a book. Do I when I'm when I'm watching Lord of the rings or reading, or do I really what I really need to see on film the equivalent of two pages of text on how Sam wise GAM g. is seasoning the rabbit. I mean, those those levels of details just are totally inappropriate. If I, if I could expand on that, it's just it's film is a much more efficient way, convenient conveying information. You can get a chapters worth information from a look from a good director. A moment of glance, you get you get a whole chapter right there. If again, if a good director knows that efficiently communicate in for me, that's one of the benefits of visual medium tape course. Of course it can if my point. All right, so CARA in Bob. Now it's your turn to counter counterpoint what they were saying. Nobody's arguing that you, I mean just in terms of pure mathematical efficiency, you can watch a movie in two hours. You can't read a book into out. Some people can't so sure. That is definitely a point in your favor. If the argument is that you want to do things more efficiently in life. But I also would argue that taking the time to read a book and spending that time on it has so many benefits over mass consuming film and those benefits are you know, mindfulness. I think that's a big part of it. It's stopping its thinking about these things. It's philosophizing about what you've learned. It's it's maybe realizing I read that too quickly and it didn't quite sink in. So I want to reread it. You know, I think that those kinds of approaches to reading a book are incredibly healthy. I think that they help us grow as individuals. I think for some people watching film helps them grow as individuals. And I think a lot of this actually comes down to what is your choice? Right? Are we talking literature? We're talking documentary. Are we talking, like you said, flicks versus film or. We're talking dime, novels versus whatever. And so ultimately, I would say, for example, that Evan may be cherry picked a choice about figuring out how to season rabbit for two. But I tend actually not to read authors use a lot of flour writing. I tend to read more like Russian literature and literature. That doesn't use a lot of adjectives for the very reason that I don't find that very interesting when I read literature, but I also read a lot of nonfiction, and I find that I learn a lot more from my books. One thing that I definitely remember saying earlier today was that for some reason I can cite things I read in books for years like they, they stay with me a lot longer and I'm not sure if it's because I've been attacking it from all angles. I've been utilizing different parts of my brain when I'm reading. Then when I assume moment in the film sticks as me for the rest of my life. I remember it. I could imitate it. It's just part now of Inari my brain because it was and some of them even sure what it was. It was just something about that scene completely touched somebody in my brain, and I think that's fair. I think the question really is, are we doing it purely for entertainment purse. Purposes are we doing it to gain something a little more meta? I think that's an unfair bias against film. And I think there is a sort of pro literature anti film bias in our culture like you learn literature in high school and in college. How many people learn about film in high school? None. I would say college. I took a course in foam in college. One of those courses in college, I changed my life right that I would never have taken, you know, by myself, meaning if I were in college. But yeah, I mean, the thing is that film can be as artistic as intellectual as profound as books, but people, I think people think of film film Affleck a movie entertainment. I agree that film at the level of it being what it is can be just as all those things, but I think the experience of consuming it will always be richer if you're reading it versus watching. And I disagree. Okay. As the moderator, I'm gonna. I change the battery in the camera. And then it's not out my instincts were like, literally damn Goodman's. This is the question I'll ask on camera when when I get this backup, I'll give you a second. Think about it. I'm gonna ask you guys to now discuss the idea of a book that you do it by yourself. You read a book by yourself. You know, most of the time I read a book out loud versus the communal concept of going to a movie and experiencing with people getting their reaction during the film and then talking about it afterwards. Understand because I'm just had. Yeah, I want to make one comment that what did I say about now? What did I just say? I, I know exactly what that rather the case was that when we start, I wanted to make one quick comment. No, we start based state my questioning. He wants to make it home at not on your question. He wants to get something out before we changed. Thank you for understanding. Go ahead. Say toss eight, it's this might be actually dangerous question to ask this is book versus movie, modern American movie, and what our conception of a book is if we had to do away with one of them, which one would you never experience again? So. So. That's a great rhetorical. That was that was a great rhetorical question and add to that rhetorical question, which we don't have to answer it's a thinker. If you had to choose your favorite book versus your favorite movie, and then your your least favorite book versus your least favorite movie, which is it? Is the move your favorite movie better than your favorite. This is your is your least favorite movie worse than your least favorite book. I think those are interesting questions to ask too. So I mean, I I've been watching movies and reading books my whole life and when I would go back to my childhood and I think about the movie experience I had no, I, I was lucky because I was a kid during the late seventies, and then you know, I was a teenager during during the eighties and it was a great, you know, ten years for for movies, I think, but I gotta bring it back to two Star Wars and watching Star Trek on TV. The influence at that that movie in that TV show had on me, has its profound, and I can't give that gravitas to any book that I read as much as I loved reading all the books that I did. Would in during that time, but the movies were like life changing experience. Have you ever read Star Wars? I've read star, no Star Trek. I've read star, it doesn't. It doesn't. We're not even close. Sorry, kills or adapted from the. I get that. I get that, but that's a good point though. If you would have to from a movie, it's not as good. Just like when doubt the movie from a book, it may not different. Sixteen is right, we move on. Yeah. Okay. So let's take a vote now. Summit up. Yes, of course. Evan, go ahead. One cents us a specific example jaws the book Peter blanche lease book versus divas builders movie jaws the brilliance of him, including the story about the USS Indianapolis, and that emotional moment, which was not in the book, but was added to the movie was absolutely the ceiling moment for me that candidate for me jaws the movie so much better than the book. I think this is that a lot of it comes down to who you are a human being. I think I'm a much more bookish person than I am film person. Same way that these guys are costly quoted movies and I'm constantly like what's that for even if I've seen it, I don't remember that little shape that we say like, what's that from. That's like. I wanted to enjoy because I'm costly lost in the shadow, but. So I think the question release to look deep inside yourself, and who are you as a person? Are you a book person, or are you moving a you out you young and beautiful lake me a gross old lakes. Do you like to just lay back and let them tell you this. I'll parrot Evans take on his final word. How many of you read hitchhikers guide to the galaxy, compare those books to the. But there was no good movie of that. It's not fair and the the audio mazing Douglas Adams read, but we just said no audiobook talking here. Mic drop. This is a false choice because in book are complementary or we get that. I do think that film is a richer and under appreciated medium that that's my position. And if people studied at the way the books would like to summarize this entire thing by saying that that Star Wars changed my life. Yes, no. I mean, I will say it's a bit unfair. Water Reiter has a position I learned from this, which I find interesting is somebody finally said that there is like a a societal stigma about movies into sense because everybody feels like I want to pretend that I'm a big book reader because people will think different. I think there's kind of that thing going on a lot of people kind of pretend they read more than they do because we want to be thought that way. But you know what, though, I think a lot of us were really watching a lot of epic TV, and we're really consuming a lot of that and reading a lot less like I try to watch as much TV's Ken and they go to bed and I'm not. I'm not reading book as much as I should be like I used to. I don't know why be should. Supposed to read before. There is a bias here and I'd like to explore it more just in general conversation, loved to hear what you guys at the maybe afterwards. We could talk about the vote. So again, our books superior to movies on three one, two, three r movie, superior to books. One, two, three more of that need. Well, first of all, are you guys not talking about documentaries and all that? I was. I'm talking about television Nova, but also just like documentary films, like the blue line cetera. Two point if we're going to do that, we also have to talk about investigative. Oh, yeah. No, I'm not. I don't know. I think that there's this notion that you know and it depends on how you learn. Some people are visual learners. I'm had that moment with close encounters of the third kind or when I was a kid and I'm like, I gotta do this for a living and it changed my life. So obviously it works, but it depends on the person. Some people learn hearing some people learn better seeing we all when we read though you don't really, I'm saying, I'm saying you like most people read have a mind's eye and they visualize what they're reading. There are rare neurological conditions where you can't do that, but most people are still doing that visual thing while the also have to say emails. The whole idea that some people are visual learners say, Bill audio learners, whatever. It's actually not true. There's not a lot of support scientifically for that notion. It actually turns out that everyone will learn as long as the teaching is good, right? That's what matters not whether you're a visual learner, a urine audio owner that if the medium is appropriate to the information and it's presented properly and the teacher is good, you'll learn it no matter what difference still above and beyond, but but it's it's hard to document the preference in research, which means it's not a powerful regardless of if you have a preference, the data's tend to show that the outcome is the same. Regardless like kids are going to score the same on about what they say. They say visual learner, they still learn just as well. That's fine. But you could. You could be equally. You can learn equally well, but just prefer the visuals. That's how. We have another question from the audience questions for Steve. Would your opinion be the same if you had to exclude all Kubrick movies. First of all, they're Kubrick film. Film the by Stanley Kubrick. Obviously, I took a course on the films Stanley Kubrick in college, and that's where I learned that films were, you know, an art form, not. True. Because I went into that course like with the complete opposite attitude, and it totally changed my view because I, I was just ignorant. I didn't know about the art form film and I learned about it. You know, you didn't go to college, learn. Something interesting that Steve said was that there's so many layers to film it's order of. It's the difference kinda. Can you can compare it to like when we do an audio podcast, Steve sitting in there and he's, you know, he's editing the audio when we do any kind of video stuff. It's it's an order more than an order of magnitude more work to do it and you need so many more skills though. That's the other thing. It's very necessarily mean that's putting a hat on a hat. Sometime sometimes there are positives. They're things that I like more about podcast than about watching something so. Good. Ultimate today. Of course, it's specifically that there are plenty of other directors that I love. My one of my favorite now is Koran. Right? Who children. Movies. Good. Oh my God. Chick children of men ones seat. One of your this, those suing of minutes scene. It's not cut the scene when they're carrying the baby through the war. The battle lines is a such a powerful moment. I'm sorry, but there's nothing in writing that will give you the power of that moment. Like statement. All of literature. That would be as powerful because it took so many different levels words can't do. I had I have there are pieces of literature that can get me the mostly on the spot, reading books. All the time about death constantly. But there is the one thing about movies that that stands out for me is that there's something about seeing human faces and a good director will put in those moments that characters have with each other that books. Yeah, don't do. And here's the other thing, and this is I'm sure this is very person to person, but for me is there's a magical sweet spot combination of music and images. And when that you get that combination, right. When you have the right piece of music with the right image, they incubate magnify shelter beyond what either can be by itself to get it right. Synergy, right. Oh my God, it's magic. It's something that again, I don't know how you can with a single modality, medium of reading. I don't know how you can get that kind of synergy. I would argue the readings not a single -ality that your mind does fill in a lot more than just vision about into I love books off to taking one position there. They call them, but I, I just had it. I do think that for me me, nothing touches me more than that. What do you think about this? If you're reading, if you're reading an e book, the book pretty much knows where you are. It could be playing music to match where you are in the book that would be cool to have. You know what there's enough to say is the visual. There's like it's called the atavistic. I think that used to be this really cool multimedia website that would do these beautiful report like deep reporter, science stories, or somebody might go to the Amazon or they would go. And then they would add all this release stunning music, and they would add all these visuals as it was like an adaptive reading, like a multimedia reading experience, just super cool. And maybe we will start seeing that more in the future like. Choose your own adventure books converting to movies and have that'd be cool. VR VR always. But I always we keep out about the idea of a movie happening in virtual. There is one at least pros more than I saw one. So with my VR set, which you'll get to j j just gotta be are set when you get a computer that can handle it. But anyway it was. It was it was like a twenty minute film for virtual reality. So you're like, you're your VR, your steer standing bear helmet on and you are standing in the middle of the movie and the actions happening around you, and you have to follow you just, you don't. You don't really know where to look. But I mean that's partly new art form. It's a new art from they have to learn. The directors have to learn how to manage the experience of the viewer in VR. So I mean, obviously, you know, it's clear when there's action happening over here. You know, when you're looking at, I could say, I could look over there. There's something happening over there to this is a proof of concept that I thought was intriguing. I'm anxious for like Quaranta get their hands Backley. Yeah. Give me an experience through VR that might be, but they can take they can take like a Star Wars movie though and converted to that. So you're in life. Put you in the typhi you're in, you're in the environment. I don't need to be a character in the movie. That's. Totally different experience. Fly pastor. It's what this is the next level of three that you're the movie, but we will take a few questions if you guys have any questions for you have a quote right ever do have for the COPA. Let's say Jake microphone around. I just wanted to know if you all had any advice. Thinking back to those early years with your first podcast, would you have what was like some of the things that you wish you would have been told when you were starting a podcast, maybe speaking as somebody who wants to start their own? Oh, Gotcha. Okay. It's different today because it's so much easier. I can tell you what somebody did tell me which was really helpful because I started talking dirty only four years ago, so I did start much more recently than these guys had I guessed it on. I don't think I'd ever guessed it on SU pre talk nerd. Right? We interviewed you attempt two thousand five years ago. Well, well Levin. Okay. And I started my podcast, twenty thirteen. I think maybe. So when I started my podcast, I was lucky enough there was there's a podcast called the mental illness, happy hour, and it's hosted by Paul Gilmartin. He's a comedian who's also struggled a lot with mental illness. It's really funny comedians come on, but they talk about really rough like raw stuff, but they're funny and I had I had come on his guest once and he was just so so kind to me. And when I told him, I think I might wanna start a podcast. He sent me this Email like I'm indebted to him forever about he was like, this is a list of all the equipment I use. This is a list of all the technology I use. These are the things that I learned when I'm interviewing somebody to watch for these are the things it was amazing. And so my first rig was not as sophisticated as it is now, but I feel like I started a leg up because I had a podcast, a podcast or who was successful, walk me through their kid. And so I've paid that forward to at least five other people when they Sean Carroll actually came to me, and we had like a big long lunch, and I told him everything I knew about podcasting about monitoring and things that when he I'm sure. He did that with other people as well. But the great news is they're so many people that podcast now that I feel like you have those resources available. We used to. We used to get a lot of emails about it that they just stopped because the internet has it all. Now YouTube teach you everything that you hard because everybody has a different opinion. The thing that I wish people told me with all the technical stuff. Tactical, that was so hard because exists art one less by one lesson all the to'real stuff. I think we did. I think I have no regrets of the choices that we made. So I think that's kind of happy with made back then, but I think we just had we had to fix our mistakes, one technical mistakes, one, here's a big one. This is what you won't find. I helped friend of mine come up with their concept for the podcast, and I interviewed her and the person that she wanted to do the podcast with and we talked for two hours and it was all about the idea of the podcast in your audience and what what l. tude of information do you want to be at in as an example? Like ES g if you say we're at ten thousand feet altitude wise with our information, we're not down to the nitty gritty, like we are reporting science reporting, skeptical thinking and thoughts, but we can't give it all and you need to Termine where you're going to be on that that level, right, because it'll help you totally figure out like, okay, first of all, how much. Detail. I am. I going to convey because you have to stop yourself as the editor of your podcast and say, I'm going into too much details. If I go there, then I have to go here here, wonky. Do you want your audience? Your who's your audience? Who do you want your audience to be? Then when you get an audience, you have to change it because your audience is probably not going to be exactly. Trying to figure out how long do I wanna talk? Am I going to be a single we went, I went into this to our discussion with them about all the things I learned that are all like the philosophy side where they didn't know they had to make right? Yeah, they didn't do the podcast because I. Talked of right out. It wasn't like, don't do it. I'm like, do it. I, I was actually angling to produce their podcast. I was so excited, helping them do it. Let me operate as a producer for you guys until you get on your feet and they were like holy shit. Yeah, like holy shit every we could. They couldn't even answer my questions. It had no idea in the thing is we have the luxury of developing this in the first five years. We developed all of this figured it all out, but that's long curve, right? And for a lot of people, they need to hit that Mark within nine months or they can't sustain it different world. Yeah, they'll take five years. The last thing I would say too is that I've had multiple friends start podcast who joined podcasts collectives, where they were reading ads for years and never saw dine. So I think part of it too is that you should never expect to make money on podcasting, but if you go into it, understanding how to monetize a podcast, you're leaps and bounds against in front of everybody and their opportunities to monetize even if you're listenership is low. And so I think that almost every podcast I talked to when I asked him, what do you regret most about when you started? They're not making money. Earlier. So, and so I think starting to even if you're not expecting to make a lot of money, figuring out how to monetize as early as possible also. So that seven years in you don't have to go all the sentiments already reading ads, please don't be mad, please don't desert me if you do it from the beginning. Then people know what to the lucky thing is most listeners don't. They understand. That's how you get paid as a podcast or. Wilding by the audience, but but yet they get if you are never read an ad and then you're seven, you're like, by the way, here's some mid rolls. People were. We got a lot of pushback. Really, I used to, but they did, but it was. It was hard because we, we've actually had people like I remember being at Tam early on when we were just starting to do the beginnings of monetize, people like, that's, that's not. You shouldn't do that. You're activist. You shouldn't have any money. I'm like, what are you talking about? Resource, Jerry cost seventeen thousand dollars a year just to make it so people can download the podcast. Where the hell's that money. That question now. Okay, fine. Move on any more questions. I've been the same for about ten years and I'm really happy to see guys. It's my first time, so. Awesome. And when people do that, they have to get up and dance. So my question is I noticed over the years, you guys kinda every so often change the format of it, which is awesome now from the show ass. But I really love the show format of it. Do you get together like at the end of the year and say, what are we gonna do this year? You guys? Is that how you guys do you have like a meeting in November and say, okay, I just kinda wanna see often at these said up and stop, but ultimately Steve makes the decision I make all the decisions. I mean, that's why the producer of the show, but but we get feedback from these guys have a conversation with what do you wanna do care? And I when she came on like you need your own segment, what's gonna be? We went over a couple of options and we, I feel like we've tried something once or twice what it is. It is on the planet. Yes. Made I made the intro for carriage. She didn't like it. Sorry. I don't remember that. I think you know, this is getting a little crusty to dump it or somebody else needs to pick it up. Modify Justice morning into something out just this morning on read it on the s g read it. They people were complaining that they don't like, who's that noisy and don't like, what's the word. Even though I get you care cared. I both many emails people saying it's my favorite segment. Likes and hates everything. Everyone looks science fiction. It's. It's. Make play along. We had. We had someone emails once said, could you just stop all the talking and everything just gets the science band or the humor and all the. Remember like these guys like I don't even wanna do damn show anymore. If we're not going to be able to talk like this, I wouldn't wanna do it. You can't. You can't please. Everybody. There's always gonna be people who complain. And I think that when it goes all the feedback into the act when it comes to podcasting, you really have to find a balance between doing it for the listeners and doing it for yourself as a kind of exercise. I mean for a lot of. I think our enjoyment of it shines through and if it were really enjoying it, that would podcasters. It's actually like an empowering personal experience that they get their voices heard through an outlet or for whatever reason they started it. I like to be able to prop that up as well. But you have fund balance. You don't want to scream into a void. But if the Georgie of people, for example, if they run into their not enjoying who's that noisy segment, I'd be totally fine. Exploring ditch segments all the time, bring it back or whatever. I just think we just it's run its course. We run out of good material like we did. The puzzle has awhile. I thought, turn if you like, we ran out of puzzles. I'm sure there are more out there, but let's take a break from it for a while and do something else. If we do name that logical fallacy every week, it would probably be really tough because we'd have to seek it out into a lot more reason. Like sometimes it falls in our lap and it's really obvious they're opportunistic segments that we just do whenever we'd have to actually learn the fouls. Never be Google that poster every time. Steve, Steve, really has them committed to memory, memorize them. I understand them. You ever quote for us? I do here. We go ready, not bad. Bad all debates. Let truth be. I aim not victory or an unjust interest said by William Penn written by William Penn with a pen with a pen, William Penn was a founder of the colony of you may have heard of it, Pennsylvania so long time ago, but still relevant. All right. Well, thank all of you for joining us for this private show. Thank you guys for joining me being such good sports with this experiments. And until next week, this is your skeptics guide to the universe. 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