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The Man Who Caught El Chapo


This is kick ass news. I'm Ben Mathis. Hey listeners it's that time of year again. And I'm going to ask a favor of you. If you enjoy kick ass news and want to keep us going in order to support our show will need the help of some great advertisers. And in order to find great advertisers will need to learn a little bit more about you. So please go to pod survey dot com slash kick. And take a quick anonymous survey that will help us get to know, you'll little better that way, we can show advertisers. Just how great our listeners are. Plus once you've completed the survey you can choose to enter for a chance to win one hundred dollars Amazon gift card. Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's pod survey. P O D S U R V E Y dot com slash kick. Thanks for your help. And thanks for listening. It's happened to all of us right before an important presentation. The printer runs out of ink brother Inc. Vestment tank. Renter's helped put a stop to this. And can literally change the way you Inc. With your choice of up to one or two years of ink included in box Inc. Vestment tank helps eliminate the expense and hassle of frequently buying and replacing ink. Cartridges learn more at change the way you Inc dot com. And now enjoy the show. Hi, I'm Ben Mathis. Welcome to kick ass news. Just two weeks ago. A jury in New York federal courtroom found Joaquin El Chapo Guzman. Guilty on twelve criminal counts, including engaging in a continuing criminal enterprise conspiracy to launder narcotics. Proceeds international distribution of cocaine heroin, marijuana and other drugs and use of firearms. Now the man who reigned as the most dangerous and prolific drug Lord in the world faces mandatory life in prison without chance of parole. Di special agent Jack Riley says sitting in a lonely cell for the rest of his life is a fittingly pathetic end for Narko terrorist who flooded America with cocaine meth and heroin, murdering thousands of innocent people in the process, and he should know because for thirty years, Jack Riley lead the manhunt for El Chapo, and now he's written about it in a new memoir, titled drug warrior inside. Had the hunt for El Chapo and the rise of America's opioid crisis. Today, Jack joins me on the podcast to discuss how El Chapo first appeared on his radar while working on a classified task force to catch another drug kingpin Pablo Escobar he reveals how chop oh cleverly wrangled the cocaine trade from the Colombians how he saw America's growing opioid epidemic as an opportunity to branch out into meth and heroin, and how Chapo managed to run a multibillion dollar drug empire from a Mexican prison that is to say until he one day up and decided that he didn't want to be in prison anymore and walked right out through one of his famous underground tunnels Jack discusses being on the dangerous frontlines of the war on drugs as the head of the DA's, El Paso, Texas branch, how it led to a hundred thousand dollar price on his head. And when he learned about policing the border how drugs get into America. And where they go from there. Then he reveals how chop oh escaped capture. So many times and how the Mexican government had to postpone a raid on his compound because of actor Sean Penn last we talk about the Chapo trial the US opioid epidemic, and what needs to be done to address it criminal Justice reform, Donald Trump's wall and Trump's wild assertion that El Chapo had put a hit out on him coming up with DA special agent, Jack Riley in just a moment. Jack Riley spent his DA career combatting Mexican and Colombian cartels and drug related gang violence and for thirty years. Riley was at the center of the hunt for the world's most wanted drug Lord Joaquin Guzman, better known as El Chapo at the time of his retirement. Riley was the highest ranking career special agent at the DA serving as the organization's second in command overseeing global drug enforcement efforts. Now, he writes about it in his new memoir grug warrior inside the hunt for El Chapo and the rise of America's opioid crisis. Jack Riley, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much. Well, Jack, I gotta be honest. I'm probably not alone. When I say that most of my reference points for the war on drugs come from watching Netflix series narcos how close is the reality of your work to the fictional depictions. You know, it's it's very similar both of those guys how the air and Steve Murphy I worked with for many years. So it's. Closer to the truth. And allow people think really I was just watching the new season, the narcos Mexico, and I'm curious did, you know, the agent that was killed down there. Kiki camerena. I came on the job right after that occurred. That must have been an interesting time to becoming in. Then yet really was it was a time. When our focus was changing we were expanding as an agency. And I think the country was just getting used to what we're up against. And you began your career at the DA in Chicago. And you talk about being frustrated at the time with just busting smalltime street dealers. You say back then law enforcement was too focused on metrics. What do you mean by metrics? And what did you want them to focus on back, then well, it was apparent to me after working as young agent on the street that we were affecting arrests and in some cases making communities safer, but we were doing nothing to attack the organizations and other words, the chapel goes bonds of the world and apparat. Atis that supports what the cartels do. And at that time. Our scorecard was simply metrics how many people were arrested how much how many drugs were sees how many guns received how much money did you see and don't get me wrong. Those are very important indicators as the Howard doing. But I think the impact of our investigations on organizations is far more important. And it sounds like that was a fight that you fought off and on through most of your career at the DA yet. Fortunately, there, you know, there's a couple of schools of thought on how to do it. My thing had always been I wanna see impact on the community or I wanna see the organizations dismantle. Yeah. It's kind of like the old four legged table if you take one laid out of that table. It remains standing when you go out to the organization you try to make. Yeah. Cease to exist after being in Chicago for a while you went to DC to join this classified task force that had been commissioned by President Bush, forty one. To catch Pablo Escobar now, I know that a lot of that is still classified. But what can you talk about about that? Well, I think it was it was a realisation that law enforcement in general across the globe needed to do something different. And I think that's where I really learned the importance of going after the head of the organization and the organization itself, and that's exactly what the project was designed to do and share information with our counterparts overseas. So they could make a difference there too. And if I have this, right? This is where you first heard the name, El Chapo, correct? It was and I think it's important to note that at that point we were really concentrating on a Colombian issue with the meta Heenan Kelly Columbia and the Mexican cartels as we know them today really had not formed. They were basically loosely tied smugglers at that part basic based in geographical areas of Mexico. Icho and other than marijuana and some black tar hair when they really were not narcotic traffickers, and so at the time did your colleagues or supervisors at the DA or other law enforcement agencies. See Gu's Mon is a big player yet. We began hearing bits and pieces about this logistics genius who had developed various and ingenious ways to smuggle illegal goods into the US. I mean, chapels famous obviously for tunneling. So he was also extremely hands on in the management of those roles. And I think you know, he is a mass murderer in in my opinion. But he's also one heck of a good corporate CEO if you look at the organization, he set up a yeah. You acknowledged that it'll ciampa was shrewd in the way that he gradually was able to subvert the Colombian cartels and take over the cocaine trade. How did he manage to do that? Well, you know, we had been. Obviously all the agencies had been fairly successful and taking care of the the the ports of entry. When you look at south Florida and the Caribbean theater, which was largely occupied by the Colombians. And when we did that they had to shift the way, they operated and the logical place. They went was to Mexico. So there were a few figures in chapel being one of them who began transporting cocaine for the Colombian traffickers into the United States and one of the things chapel. Did I think that really set them apart was early on when they were transport say five hundred kilos for the Colombians and deliver it to the Colombian surrogate say in Los Angeles, they would be paid a fee at two thousand dollars a kilo? Well what chop? Oh, did was he said we'll move that for you. But you're going to give us a hundred kilos. So he now had of a far more profitable product that he could already use. Existing smuggling routes that he had developed and others had developed long before that when there were smuggling a kinds of goods from illegal chili peppers counterfeit blue jeans, anything they could get to the US border that would turn a profit. But now they had cocaine so while the Colombians were just using him as a delivery system he was taking the cocaine that he was being paid in. And then building his own market in the US. That's exactly right. He was building a better car. Now, he also controlled the cocaine processing which later came in handy because he already had all this infrastructure in place to start producing heroine and meth when that came into vogue, I think that's an really important distinction. And of course, now, we're dealing with federal which is a synthetic heroin forty to fifty times stronger than street heroin, which has no growing season is not dependent on soil or rain. They can produce it all year round as with methamphetamine. So again chapel saw. So the market in the United States and other places in the world, and he did everything he could to build his business around that El Chapo saw what was going on with the opioid epidemic in the US and probably realize what was going on sooner than US law enforcement. Did is that what led him to branch out into meth and heroin as well? I think you're exactly right. And I can use the example of Chicago my hometown, I did return back there to run the DA division. And that was a about two thousand and ten we began seeing the real abuse of prescription drugs begin to start filtering into society. And of course, at some point doctors stopped prescribing pharmacists, say enough's enough. You can't steal it from your grandmother's medicine cabinet anymore. But you are addicted to opioids and your next step is to take that long dark road down to cheap high potency heroin, and I think. Chapel saw that coming and he changed his business model to make sure that he was in a position to profit. And you were also DA special agent in charge of Saint Louis for a period where you personally witnessed how bad meth was getting in fact in a lot of ways Missouri was really ground zero for the method democ, but you had a hard time convincing the brass in DC to take it seriously. Why weren't they interested in what you had to say? Well, at that time it was and it was mostly methamphetamine and say, and the reason the reason I believe that is because it hadn't really crossed the Mississippi River on its way eastbound so much of the country had not seen what the mid west had seen in terms of the methamphetamine problem, and certainly all the smaller, mom and pop labs all the addiction issues. What it did? The small rural towns overwhelming, you know, the the healthcare services, and and police in many cases, so yeah, it took a while to get the message. To Washington that we need to do something at the federal level to try to control it part of this time chopper was able to run his drug cartel while serving a twenty year prison sentence. And I know that Escobar did something similar when he essentially chose to go to prison to get out of the line of fire during one of these bloody drug wars among the cartels. Was there a similar motivation when chopper went to prison, quite frankly, when he went to prison he was in a safer situation to maintain his organizations because his rivals had a hard time getting to him, and he ran his organization as if he was out. I'm not sure, but I think while he was in prison. He fathered five or six children. Really? I mean, he he had the total run of the prison. And he did decide it was time to leave the prison once the United States and Mexico seriously began talking about extradition, and yeah, it's interesting. You talk in the book about how El Chapo love the women, and I know that came out in the trial that he was procuring women as young as. Thirteen or something like that? And calling them his vitamins for the day. Yeah. He he had quite an appetite in towards his later years prior to his last capture it really consumed him. And I think he made some very very bad calls for the first part of his career. He was really under the radar. He stayed much of the time in a remote area of Sinoloa. But then he began gradually coming down to populated areas, primarily to enjoy life going back to your time in Chicago, which I think you came back to Chicago several times during your career and one thing that comes out. That was interesting to me is L Chapuis US hub wasn't really L A or Miami, San Diego, the places that folks like me would usually think of as being ABS for drug action. I instead he was trafficking straight from Mexico to Chicago. What was the significance of Chicago to his operation? Well, I think you have to look at his genius in that. I mean, that's why many fortune five hundred companies are local. Wanted in and around the Chicago area. It's in the center of the country, extremely strong interstate highway systems trucking's in rails, all those things that make Chicago very very easy for traffickers to work in also Chicago, I think is the third or fourth largest Mexican population outside of Mexico, which really gave him an opportunity. And of course, the people that worked for him to hide amongst thousands of hard working Mexican Americans, and he had some pretty bad dudes coming up to Chicago to run his operation and take things over from kind of just the run of the mill street gangs. I think you said that you really got worried when the Zeta started to move into Chicago. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean because technically at that time, they really truly were a former military unit, and they were grasping control based off fear intimidation. And obviously the many murders that they were responsible for us at chapel. Erection in Mexico and things really start to heat up when you're transferred to run the DA operation in El Paso, then you were in the heart of chop. Oh country and right in his crosshairs. How dangerous was it for you? And the other agents down there. Well, it was it was a time in which Juarez which was the sister city of El Paso, literally stone throw over the Rio Grande river was really a battlezone chopper was battling the remnants of two other cartels, and there were hundreds and hundreds of people being killed. So it was a time you had to pay attention. And what I was most concerned about obviously where the safety of our employees, many of whom lived right on the border and some actually resided in Juarez. So we certainly didn't wanna make them less safe. So that he could intimidate or potentially kidnapped and in fact, didn't El Chapo, actually, put a hit out on you. He did shortly after I got there. Kind of in a naive move by me. I granted an. Interview to the newspaper, and in that interview, I said quite clearly I was here to disrupt his organization, and do whatever we could do to bring him to Justice. What I didn't know is that the sister newspaper based in Juarez chapel had a piece of or had people in there. So they soon found out kind of the open air challenges that I made and shortly after that some of our Mexican counterparts notified us that they had picked up information that he had put a bounty on my head and was looking to have my head cut off. Wow. And at one point some of his thugs tried to follow you home in the middle of the night. Yeah, they did. And we never really knew exactly if that was their intent, but the assure got my attention, and it was about a forty mile cruise up the interstate trying to get away from and I and I couldn't and Finally I pulled into a deserted school play lot. And I only had. A small pistol with me. And I thought well, if this is it this is it we're going to have to fight this out and all of a sudden right at the very end bolted cars fired up and took off out of the area. So I don't know if that was meant the scare me or if they lost their nerve or their whoever their boss was told him to back off we're gonna take a quick break. And then we'll be back with more with Jack Riley when we come back in just a minute. If there's something interfering with your happiness or preventing you from achieving your goals better. Help online counseling can help. Better. Help offers licensed professional counselors who are specialized in issues such as depression anxiety relationships. Trauma anger family conflicts, LGBT matters, grief, self esteem and more connect with your professional counselor in a safe and private online environment and get help at your own time. And at your own pace, anything you share is confidential. And it's so convenient you can schedule secure video or phone sessions as well as Chattan text with your therapist. If for some reason, you're not happy with your counselor though, you can request a new one at any time for no additional charge. Best of all, it's a truly affordable option. Kick ass news listeners. Even get ten percent off your first month with the discount code kick. So why not get started today? Go to better help dot com slash. Kick. Then simply fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with a counselor. You'll love that's better. Help dot com slash kick. One more time better help dot com slash kick. And now back to the show. Now, I remember during twenty-six teen Donald Trump claimed that El Chapo had put out a hit on him supposedly because he was cracking down on the border. You're someone who actually did have a hit put out on him by El Chapo, what did you think of that was that just be us? Or did you ever hear any talk of a price on Trump's head? Now. I never I remember reading about that. But I never saw it in any official intelligence reports. I mean, it doesn't surprise me that troppo would do something like that. But I I don't have any first-hand knowledge that that occurred in one of the more farcical moments from your time and El Paso, the Mexican attorney general invites you down to Mexico to view their anti-drug operation in action where you're very impressed by that. No matter of fact, I was the whole time we were down there. It was very clear that they were trying to show that they were doing whatever they could with the military to suppress the cartels funny. Sorry about that is when they flew us into the mountains where they were going to attack these marijuana fields we flew on an old vintage Russian helicopter, and when we got on board. The thing was leaking everything oil you name it was. And of course, the pilots couldn't speak English. And so we're on the thing, and they handed us bulletproof vests, and I'm thinking to myself, what are we doing here? But what they wanted us to do was to sit on the vest. So as a helicopter flew over the fields, traffickers, I guess frequently shot at a shot up, and they didn't want to come in through the bottom of the copter. A throughout the story. You talk about having a difficult time convincing the Mexican authorities to actually go after El Chapo and even having trouble convincing local sheriffs in your jurisdiction down there along the border to actually enforce the law and go after the bigger fish, the attitude with a lot of sheriffs was, you know, it's not our problem. It's just passing through absolutely. And many of those sheriffs along the border. Some of them are just flat out heroes. They're very poorly funded and resourced. So they had a tough job just maintaining day day to day in certain areas. I think our problem at that point was a building relationships with their Mexican counterparts which was really important down the road because we could have never captured chop or other high value targets without the assistance of them. And Ed took years to do early on. It was very difficult to share information with them for fear. It would be compromised or they would really do nothing with it. But we did some great bridge building. And I think I think right now we've got a really good relationship both along the border and with our agents working side by side in Mexico at our counterparts, and after El Chapo is caught for the second time. I think you moved to DC to take over as DA chief of operations, which was I believe the number three position at the DA. And of course, El Chapo had been caught. But you heard chatter that he was already plotting a prison break and tried to warn your counterparts in Mexico and also people up the chain of command in law enforcement. How did you know that he was already plotting another escape? Well, first foe at that point. We really knew his ability to secure equality engineers to build tunnels. We'd we'd seen it for years along the border for drug trafficking. And so we were beginning to hear intelligence information from variety of sources saying that he was in the process of planning to tunnel out. So I took the opportunity when I was down there for a a meeting to pull aside the head of the federal police and tell him, and I believe this was in April could be wrong. I think it was in April. And of course, he looked at me like, you know, how dare you come down and tell me how to do, you know, do his job? And and that's really all you can do in those situations and. One of the things that was I was alarmed about was they all knew he was a toddler expert. And they never moved them that kept him on the same in the same cell for over a year and just happened to be in a ground floor. So several months after that meeting chapel rides out motorcycle through the tunnel on his in the wind again. Yes, that's what I wondered when all this happened. And he escaped for the second time through a tunnel. Did it never occurred. Anyone to put him on the second floor, though. Well occurred to me. But no problem is nobody listened to me. Yeah. And when he finally did escape again, I think it was probably in the middle of the night, you call your boss, the D A administrator, Chuck Rosenberg and tell him that El Chapo escaped again. What did he say? Well, Chuck was brand new to DA. And of course, he'd come over from the FBI, and he just asked me could you tell me again who chop goes minus. And of course, I did. And he remembered, but yeah, that was kind of got my attention to. Yeah. I mean by that time wasn't El Chapo, pretty well known not just in your circles. But through the media as well. Yeah. I think he'd he'd become kind of a folk hero to some people. And he was certainly in the media. It's interesting that night, I found out. I talk about it in the book. I didn't find out from our command center in Washington come I found out from my son who sought on Twitter. And of course, that was the first time anybody in the agency new, and it was it just showed at that point. I think the Mexicans were hesitant to tell us. And I think they thought they could have him back in custody in several hours, which obviously didn't happen. Yeah. Yeah. And you snapped right into action, and it gets into this man hunt fell Chapo for what? Now, the third time in the most ridiculous scene in the book. You recall the moment when you guys had tracked El Chapo down to a valley in. I think it's called LA tuna. You have the Mexican marines in place ready to rate his compound. Found and suddenly things go sideways for the stupidest of all possible reasons. Can you tell that story? Yeah. We were we had been working, obviously. With our the marines down there trying to locate and area and for several weeks. We kinda felt we had him in a very remote area. So the marines being as great as they are made the decision to go and stage, and they were going to try to send on foot because several times before they'd used helicopters. And of course, you can hear those coming. And so I I remember going to dinner with friends thinking the the operation was ago, and it was their call when to do it. And then the next day when I got my morning briefing. They said that they didn't they they didn't execute. And I wanted to know why? And that's when we were told there were a an American so-called journalist up there along with an actress and when. When I dug into it. Of course, it turned out to be Sean Penn. Who by the way, is not much of a journalist. Yeah. So they actually held off on the raid because Sean Penn and a Mexican actress might have been in the compound. Yes, certainly influenced them I'll tell you that. I think you say that you wanted to have Sean Penn in this Mexican actress prosecuted for obstruction? Why weren't they thrown in jail for that? Well, because he claimed he was there as a journalist and evidently, the the decision was made at the department of Justice that, you know, not to but what I was most concerned about and what I'm always concerned about is the danger. He put our Mexican counterparts in some of US agents, and at which which you know, I still at night wake up fuming. Finally, you've got El Chapo for the third time in prison. How did you get Mexico to extradite him quickly before he could slip through their fingers? Again. You know, it's a great question. I think one of the real. It was a national embarrassment to them. And I was I felt bad for them, quite frankly, what he did escape, and I think at that time they made a decision at the highest levels of government or we're going to go through the legal process. But the end game here is to get him out of Mexico, and you know, in in thinking back, I just can't tell you. How proud I while I didn't singlehandedly catch chop. No way. There were literally hundreds of Harare DEA agents police officers and prosecutors who really risked everything not only to capture him. But the extradite him and have him face Justice in the US. Yes. Then he finally did face Justice, very recently, El Chapo, was tried here in the US for his crimes, what went through your mind. When you watch this person, whom you described as the most evil man in the world finally in court standing trial like any other crook. I've I just reveled in it. It was. It's where he belongs. And he's going where he belongs. I I really do believe that it's a fate worse than him. Take on a bullet in the head from his rival is is where he's going to go most likely to supermax in Colorado on between me, and you I hope he lives one hundred and fifty years because that is a heck of a place to be a. Yeah, I think in the book, you said that there were reports that he was going crazy from the silence of being in prison and supposedly having hallucinations, right? Yeah. Hey, welcome. Welcome. Welcome to the real world. Chappel your own doing. Yeah. Now did anything come out in the trial? That might have even been a surprise to you. No, not at all. I I knew many of the agents and the prosecutors and their first class. I also had fairly good sense of how strong the evidence was so no, I I knew he was in jail to stay. I one of the things I do think that was kind of funny is I think there was a time right before the jury went out where the indications were the chapel actually believed he might get acquitted. And I just found that I found that hilarious. Well, I want to ask you a few questions more generally about the war on drugs. Although I know you don't like that term you say, in fact, why don't you like the term war on drugs because I think we have to realize, you know, when you use it term like that a war has a beginning in an end. And I think as long as we're in existence. We're going to have to deal with addiction the associated death in violence and figure out a way to deal with the problem in general. Not just the bad guys that we we must go after. I mean, I think it's so vital for us to maintain a strong law enforcement posture both domestically and overseas and Bill relationships with a foreign counterparts. But at the same time, we got to rethink how we educate. We also have to realize that this country's never been in an epidemic like this. And that we have to be able to rethink how can we help people get them to treatment? And I'm not talking about the bad guys the repeat offenders, the violent people. I'm talking about the every day US citizen who finds themselves in the grips of addiction either through prescription drugs that led the on. And how do we affectively make sure that we make this treatment available to people that need it and want it and maybe can't afford. It will Donald Trump promised the American people that he was going to tackle the opioid epidemic. Head on as someone who's overseeing the war on opioids personally. Have you been impressed? So far by his efforts to be honest with you. I think the real national emergency is is the fact that a hundred and twenty of our US citizens are dying day, they're estimating. Now, some seventy thousand people will lose their lives next this next year because of drug abuse and much of that is opioid based. So, yeah, I I think we gotta do a better job, I know controlling southern border is a good thing. I think the wall will have a affect on illegal alien migration. But until we step till we step up, our manpower and technology at the ports of entry. I'm not so sure we're going to have a big big affect on on stopping flow of drugs. There's an old saying on the border. You know, you build a ten foot wall among get eleven foot ladder. Yeah. Yeah. And most of the data seems to indicate that drug flow across legal entry points way outweighs the drug. Trafficking across the illegal parts of the border your experience bears that out from what you've seen you. Yes, sir. Especially I mean, it just doesn't make financial business sense for cartels to move high value of narcotics through desolate terrain and unweildy areas when they can take advantage of the thousands and thousands of vehicles and people that cross in in and out of Mexico every single day. Right. Okay. So logistically, it's a lot easier to do that then hit driving across dirt in some empty prairie or something. I'm not I'm not saying that doesn't occur. But the major stuff comes through. You know, if you just look three weeks ago CV PC's the record load offensive will synthetic heroin and that came secreted in a compartment hidden on. I believe in eighteen Wheeler. We didn't never gotten it at the board of entry. If we did not have the ability to x Ray. So I would like to see some enhancement in that a capability along with with strategic barriers which I do think will have an effect. Yeah. And it's someone who's spent a lot of time with border sheriffs inspecting the holes along the border, sometimes literal holes in the case of El Chapo, drug tunnels. Do you think that a wall would actually at least slow down the flow of illegal drugs? And or would it be a cost effective way? Yeah. I think one of the things we we need to look at is. It would it would have some effect on smaller. I think independent entrepreneur type. Traffickers, but the major cartels the Senna lows, I think because they're very very good at using the ports of entry. You know? I think right now, we're only X-raying thirty thirty five percent. So if chop oh goes mod, and you send ten cars at the same time across the border. There's a pretty good chance you're gonna get fifty to sixty percent of that through. And you only got a bat three hundred to being the baseball hall of fame. You can see the business side of it. And as someone who didn't want to focus on the small time street dealers and so forth. I'm curious how you feel about the recent criminal Justice reform law in the effort to release low level drug dealers. Yeah, I I think that is an evolution. It's been happening for a while. You know, it's important to understand at least at the federal level. There are very few people in custody serving time for personal use amounts of narcotics. And usually there's an element of violence connected to them. So you know to release non violent drug offenders. I guess is a is an option that we need to look at. But I think we have to do it. And we have to do it very sparingly and make and making sure the people are who we think they are if you were in charge of the D A today would be the number one thing that you would want to do to address the drug problem here. I think first of all a DA right now is down at least when I left five six hundred agents really were authorized to to hire those agents. We just don't have the budget. I would really push hard for that. And then I think Secondly, we need to maintain our presence overseas were about sixty four countries overseas. So we're. Attacking for the most part the countries in which the drugs are produced before they even get to the United States. And in some of those countries, we really do good work because we build institutions, and we show how to establish the rule of law, and that is really important not just for narcotics trafficking, but really for organized crime. It could be threatening the United States from any position. Well now that he's sitting in a prison cell. Have you had any desire to sit down and speak with El Chapo? And what would you want to ask him? I would just say, I don't know how you know, the thousands and thousands of innocent people that died because of him and his organization of some of those those images are seared in my memory. And I just like to know just to make sure that he understands that he's responsible, and that's really it other than I'd probably take a swing on them. But that would that would probably get me in trouble. Probably will again the. Book is called drug warrior inside the hunt for El Chapo and the rise of America's opioid crisis. Two great, read, Jack Riley. Thanks for talking with me. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you. Thanks again to special agent, Jack Riley for coming on the podcast order, his new book drug warrior inside the hunt for El Chapo, and the rise of America's opioid crisis on Amazon audible or wherever books are. So whatever struggles you're facing from depression and anxiety to trauman grief better help can connect you with a professional counselor in a safe and private online environment. It's so convenient you can schedule secure video or phone sessions as well as Chattan text with your therapist, and anything you share is completely confidential. That's divall. It's a truly affordable option gas news listeners. Even get ten percent off your first month with the discount code kick. So why not get started simply go to better? Help dot com slash kick. And fill out a questionnaire to get matched with a counselor. You'll love today. Be sure to subscribe to kick ass news on apple podcasts if you haven't already. And if you like what you're hearing, then Rayton review us while you're there five star reviews or the easiest way for new listeners to find us. Don't forget to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at at kick ass, news pod and feel free to Email me with your thoughts questions and suggestions that comments at kick ass news dot com until next time. I'm Ben Mathis. And thanks for listening to kick ass news. Gas news is a trademark of Mathis entertainment Inc.

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