Pelosi on Trump: "I want to see him in prison"
This episode is brought to you by Cox. With contour TV from Cox you can find all your favorites. All in one place. Does it have the YouTube, you Bet El what about that? Netflix thing net Netflix, too. And although superhero movies, contour has all the latest titles on demand. Oh my grandkids love that big green guy, though. I prefer the one with the hammer myself. Okay. I think we're done here now. Get all your favorite apps shows and movies, right? On contoured TV from Cox. We have a special show tonight, including the Republican civil war, Trump attacking his own party over tariffs, and a top conservative says the party is now affectively a Trump quote Colt, and then the story that has every Mohlala just fascinated right now, these new secret memos from inside the Muller pro which allegedly go into all kinds of details. It's all part of a clear indictment of Trump world from the pretty famous author Michael wolf. I have a lot of questions. About this. I don't put them to him as he makes his first ever appearance on the beat. That's in tonight's show. And also later tonight, I wanna tell you, I have a special report for you, that we have been working on this is about a brand new story it relates to Trump's immigration policy turmoil. It involves the president's recurring nightmare, which involves never-trumpers. It also involves Ted Cruz. And it also involves some pretty bad news for Mitch McConnell. And I could tell you honestly, we don't think you'll see that story anywhere else that's tonight as well later in the hour, but we begin with the House Democrats on offense, hitting hard against the Trump teams efforts of what they call stonewalling these open obstruction probes. Plus the new release of voicemail. That reveals Donald Trump's own lawyer criminal defense lawyer trying to get a heads up on whether Michael Flynn had quote evidence that would implicate the president. Democrats are pressing ahead on their aggressive plans in all of this as they face what they call the stonewalling because they're going to hold attorney general bar, and former White House counsel, Don, Mcgann in contempt. And that's not all there. This new, there's this new report here, but they're going to grant other committee chairs the power to go to federal court to enforce any subpoenas. That could be the mullahs report, it could be evidence from bar. It could be future subpoenas. So it's another way that we're seeing the esscalation of this interbranch war, even as there's a larger question over whether the impeachment questions, the impeachment debate is winding up or winding down. Well, here's a clue. Also, new speaker Pelosi, she's dialing up her rhetoric telling senior Democrats that, while she may not be for impeachment. Now. She wants to see Donald Trump in prison, closely showing that was unlikely that impeachment is coming anytime soon. She is the house speaker, she controls, whether that would become real she wants Democrats to focus on some sort of longer term alternative. You have the Justice department policy that you cannot indict a sitting president. We've heard a lot about that. That's also being contested twenty twenty dams or running against that. And then separate from whether they repeal that policy, if a democrat does defeat Trump, what you have here is. The speaker of the house openly suggesting that after his presidency, maybe he should be prosecuted. Maybe he should be jailed. That is tough talk Trump responding in kind on a Fox News interview this was part of the war cemetery discussion, part of the Normandy, seventy fifth that we've been covering today. Take a look at this. NC Pelosi nervous, Nancy, Nancy Pelosi doesn't talk about it. Manzi Pelosi's a disaster. Okay. She's a disaster and let her do what she wants. You know what I think they're in big trouble. Of course, if the Democrats turned big trouble, that raises the question of why the Trump administration in the White House, or stonewalling in the first place? Why not just get this over with and provide the witnesses now in the Miller report, you have evidence of potential parts of obstruction? And you have as we reported previously, the discussion of what Trump's lawyer said, when dealing with former national security adviser Michael Flynn's lawyer, now, this was in a very stressful. Hot time. November twenty seventeen reports are out that Flynn was going to leave his joint defense agreement, and make a deal with Muller today for the very first time that voicemail is out. Now we knew about this because it's part of Motors evidence now you can hear it for the very first time. This is John again. Maybe I I'm sympathetic understanding as to what it should receive here. The in star room surprise me if he's all onto raise if you. With the driver if on the other hand. Did you relation? Surprising. Then we've got a national security issue. We need sometime has remember what we all said about. The president is through Flynn. No. I'm joined by the center for American progress action funds when you taller Daily Beast Margaret Carlson and the root dot coms. Jason Johnson, a good evening to you. Margaret, you've been covering a lot of these different characters over the years. Rarely do you get that kind of a private recording. What are you read from it? What are you here in the atmosphere, as I mentioned, we knew the outlines from the report, we did? But hearing it like that. It's, it's chilling it sounds like something that could be in the sopranos where you say you were our friend, but you might not be our friend anymore and it, it would create a national security issue. You know, the whole all of the times that the, the White House has tried to dangle favors pardons. Anything to keep people silent is a disgrace. And now they're doing it by ignoring subpoenas, and forcing Democrats, in this case, and I don't think they need to do it through impeachment. I think the tools that Democrats need are available to them by other means through the judiciary committee through oversight committees to an end to use the contempt. Method if they don't, if the soup that's how they have to enforce the subpoenas against people who are really not under Trump's control anymore. Don McCann had his heroin moment, as you're reading the mullahs report. And I assume he would testify but he's been intimidated by Trump into not testifying the same with hope Hicks. So we have to hope there's a branch of government left. The Senate is a moral not gonna do anything don't count on them. They're never going to impeach. But that the judicial branch, there are judges who will still do the right thing wanting to take a listen to Senator Warren. Donald Trump, as president delayed, deflected move, fired, and did everything he could to obstruct Justice, if he were any other person in the United States, based on what's documented in that report, he would be Terry d- out in handcuffs. Is this the new democratic message instead of them actually doing, what one would do if you thought someone should be carried out in handcuffs, which is go forward with the congressional remedies? The Senator Warren is at least consistent, because she has come out for impeachment. If Nancy Pelosi believes his criminal conduct just find jail. Doesn't it justify impeachment broke? Well, I think what Nancy Pelosi strategy here is ultimately, let's be strategic. Let's get it right. The first time because once you open that floodgate within impeachment proceedings. There is no taking it back. And what Pelosi is fully aware of is that sure there might be success in the house. But the Senate is a graveyard as we've seen for any bit of positive legislation that House Democrats have put up Mitch McConnell has made it very clear. They're all DIO way, the other thing about Senator warned statement that really springs. True is no one is above the law, and that includes President Trump's Hulu even use obstruct. Let me put you on that because you're in Washington and you're dialed in. I'm not saying cap is the same as speaker Pelosi. We'll invite her on as well as you do that, as you are ticky, late the some of the analysis of the rationale, doesn't the counter argument, become is this, the Democrats version of law corrup-. I mean, there was a judicial legal process. We've covered it extensively. It did not result in an indictment, whether you like it or not the next step would be does congress want to deal with it. And if the speaker doesn't want to go that route she has every right to explain that. But if she doesn't want to go that route, and then she is making prison esque jail, esque references, does she risk. I ask for your analysis to she risk getting close to a locker up kind of frame where you're using the impugning of criminal conduct without actually responsibly dealing with the evidence. Well, I think going back to what she said about whether or not she wants to do, I think she is dealing with it. I think she's just not moving as quickly as some would want because she's outlined. That the premises in which in the conditions in what she would like to move forward is with one, a lot more buy in from the general public awareness into some bipartisan support. So I think she's dealing with it as they ramp up a committee chairman and women's abilities to foul suits against people who and hold people in contempt of congress who choose to not appear in by by subpoenas. So it's, it's being handled is just not being handled in a way that I think with the urgency that a lot of people want to see Jay riskier of this turning into lock him up. Yes. It's just a silly or as lock him up because it's also a chant that they're not willing to go through with everybody knows that Donald Trump really wasn't going to try and lock up Hillary Clinton and essentially, what you have Nancy Pelosi saying is we have a monster here and you can use holy water, and you can use garlic, but don't use the silver bullet even we got him in the chamber literally in our chamber, the house chamber, we're not going to use the silver bullet that's suppose it doesn't make any sense and it makes her leadership sound week. Look, I'm down here right now. I just saw speech by by Maxine Waters. She led the entire audience in a chant of impeach forty five the base wants to see this process. Nancy Pelosi is speaking against our own base, and speaking against their own leadership at this point there is no strategy behind it. It's certainly not want a lot of people are agreeing with. Wanted to you wanted to get in. I'm saying she's not, she's the saying let's not jump to that silver bullet yet. There are still some foundational things that need to happen here and so she's just moving strategically. No, that's not strategic. We're not going to. Yes. If she says, what we can't do it until the Senate happens. And we can't do it until we get the public involved every single logical person who knows anything about history saying, you can't get the public involved in to begin impeachment proceedings. We don't have to go back and repeat the whole Nixon rule. Again, you can't get the public involved. She is constantly moving the goalposts in ways that don't make sense to anybody, you can still impeach him without him being removed. That's the Senate problem and putting them on the line and making Republicans have to say during right before an election year. This is why I want to keep a president who is engaging in possibly illegal activities and office. That's the greatest campaign slogan. You can have for twenty twenty and she's denying that to this country hearings that are televised will get public buying. Idea. But I think those hearings can be done. The judiciary committee hearings oversight committee hearings. Look what Trump did with the Muller report, he exonerated himself. He had the help of William bar. Who's, you know, this is the part of the movie where you find out that the police captain is on the take so Barr did everything he could to help Trump make that case. So the public, or at least a portion of it thinks that Trump was found innocent by the Miller report he said, no collusion and I was exonerated. Imagine what he'll do if the Senate relieves him of impeachment if it doesn't convict him of impeachment what he will do with that. He will have been a martyr, and he will be he will declare himself innocent, and that will not help anybody if you know that your you that adds I mean it makes it worse for Democrats going into the election to have Trump. Have that in his pocket. That's that's not going to be in his pocket. He's going to say that no matter what Donald Trump has been caught doing all sorts of inappropriate activities, and he will still exonerate himself. And if you wanna talk about the dirty police, you've, here's what we learned from all cop films, right? The departed if you take too long, the hero ends up dead, right? Indentity and the movie because they weren't aggressive enough, when they needed to be this doesn't have to be about what Donald Trump is this is about what the constitutional responsibilities are of the house, what the responsibility, what the constitutional responsibilities are the Senate, this sort of tepid nonsense on the part of Democrats. Well, we can't do this because Trump is gonna flip it. Another way has no one been paying attention to this guy for the last three years, we make up an lie. I thought, what we learned for the department, we learned that, that if you have the top floor apartment in the best fielding, Massachusetts. It doesn't make sense on a cop salary. Going back to as moderator. I'm going to go Juanita and then Margaret, and then we're out of time. Yeah. I honestly think with all the departed analogies aside. There is some value to the fact that the public needs to be bought in here and I'm talking about sure the echo chamber of Twitter is loud. You got progressive folks on the left really pushing here, but Pelosi sees the big picture. And I think we gotta stay the course so if you can fast forward and see that impeachment only emboldens Trump and makes him stronger. Would you still be for impeachment? It won't do that. So I'm in favor asking my friend, Jason. Yeah, it's not going to embolden him because he's emboldened anyway. So you should go ahead with impeachment. There's more emboldened men in in him. Look at him on d day, you know hating after. Completely under. Well, I'm going to fit in a break, because we have so much in this show, what I appreciate is such a fulsome no-holds-barred exchange of views with people having a very different ideas about what to do next on central constitutional question. So we listened and we learn Margaret, Jason Juanita, thanks to each you. Thanks, really appreciate it. Interesting conversation coming up this moment of truth. But Republicans opposing Trump on immigration John bainer throwing the shade. I wanna talk to you about what's happened with the Republican party. There isn't a Republican. There's Trump earning Rebublican party kind of taking a nap somewhere, taking a nap and then as I mentioned, I've a special report for you tonight. Donald Trump looking for an immigration, hard liner. Why it could blow up in his and Mitch McConnell's faces then later controversial reporting on this behind the scenes fight in the Muller probe? Michael Wolff makes his first ever appearance on the Beedi as a new book, he has controversy, and he says he's got secret Muller memos. All of that on the show tonight, we're looking forward to it when we come back. Hi, it's Katy Tur want to keep up with MSNBC while you're on the go. Subscribe to the MSN BC daily newsletter you'll get the best of what you've missed or in this unprecedented era of news, text MSNBC, two six six eight six six to subscribe. President Trump moving ahead on his trade war. And he says the critics that he's gotten from this, including on the Republican side are wrong. We don't Beximco the tariffs go on. And I made it too, and I'm very happy with it. And a lot of people senators included they have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to Derrick. No. Absolutely no idea. No idea. Donald Trump saying everybody look, you can't really stop me. The question is what the Republican party does. Now, we have evidence to look at what we have seen to be clear, whether you think it's good or bad is the Klein of what was known as the Republican party. This is sort of a Trump party now or a maga- party one where people struggle to stand up to Trump longtime conservative icons, like George will call it a Trump Colt or take former house speaker John bainer, whatever you think of him, this is a man who knows the Republican party intimately he dealt with the factions and the tea party. And now he says look folks with Trump there, ain't no Republican party. But I wanna talk to you about what's happened with the Republican party. There isn't a Republican party. There's a Trump party, Republican party has got to take a nap somewhere taken a nap, and that's on a stage bainer knows. That's going to be heard for whatever reason at this point, he's willing to just say it, then there are the reports we're hearing, you can believe them as credible or not. But reports of what these Republican members of congress say, in private take a listen. Look, I have Republican colleagues, who when we're not in a hearing or not on the house floor in when we talk about the president, they roll their eyes when they tell me privately that they are deeply disturbed, but they don't feel they can say anything. I find that very troublesome. I'm joined by columnist and host the Mike Lucan podcasts. Mike Lupu also bestselling author, the new one is batting order. And former Republican Congressman Tom Coleman congressman, do you think that this current Republican party has lost its way when they say they might stand up to Trump on the trade war is that real? Yes, they've lost their way and may never find their way back. And I doubt if they stand up to Trump, if, if this thing is settled, it's going to be settled in the back rooms of the capital, our off site at the White House somewhere and it just won't happen. However, I have thought long. Hard about what's wrong with Republicans. And I kind of think they're like the munchkins the land of is they were real afraid of the wizard until they drew back the curtain and found that was just a guy with a microphone and I think we have a lot of that going on here. So you know in the wizard of Oz. We had the scarecrow who needed a brain, we had a ten man who needed a heart and a lion who needed courage. So the Republicans need to take their cue from there, they need to use their own brains. Instead of blood, Trump thing for them the need to follow their heart and do. What's right. And finally, they need the courage to stand up to this one ABI dictator and find out, and I think maybe the congress is going to pull that curtain. And they'll find out that the guy behind the curtain is just overweight. Loud mouth, well laying it out there. Mike Lupu co we're not in Trump Tower or anymore. No. In our hands. Right. No, no, no. There's an Eminem song about guts, over fear that time is near. Okay. So are these guys talking a good game? Because there's another line in that song about how an angry man's power will shut them on. And bainer is another guy talking to good game now but if he were still in congress, I wonder, would he have turned into a quisling like Mitch McConnell or would he be saying the kinds of things that he saying now because Ari when he says these things now he sounds like a guy who's outside the Borsen? Yeah. I wanna fight you now. Well, I mean, I know John bainer. I know I'm fairly will. And I know how frustrated he was when he was speaker privately, what he what he felt about some of his fellow colleagues in the Republican conference so Jon doesn't have anything to lose now. And so he's saying what he thinks, and there's some things you can't say when you're speaker of the house, and you're the party leader. But he doesn't have that mental anymore. And I think he's saying was really and he's hard about and Mike. I'm gonna play some of the Republicans who are making noise on this particular issue, take a look. Well, there's not much support in my conference for tariffs. That's for sure. I think it's safe to say you've talked all of our members. We're not fans of terrorists think it's mistake, Monisha opinion, is that the short term gain is not more from long term pain for a lot of Republicans, you know, is attack at the tax foreign mostly by consumers. We actually may have enough to override a veto on this like. Whereas these guys been someday they're all going to be asked. You know what, what did you do in, in, in the war daddy, there? Now, finding their voice as this guy's talking about terrorists that they don't like our a he sounds like a loan shark. They're going to go up five percent. And then another five percent. He sounds like a guy talking about the big. Okay. And now this is of all the things he's done. This is finally offended these guys. I mean talk about getting religion pretty late in the church. And that's what striking why we're digging in on this is this isn't the appearance of a conflict or there's a lot of clash here. And you saw the president just hammering them, so we're going to see what happens. It's going to matter a lot to American consumers and workers. If these terrorists are implemented, Mike Luba, former Republican Congressman Tom Coleman. Thanks to both of you. We have a lot more in the show. Michael Wolfe is first ever appearance on the beat a very interesting book. I read the whole thing we're going. Talk about it. I think there's a lot in here, including what he calls the Trump psycho drama that you might want to hear tonight, but up next in thirty seconds. Donald Trump's search for immigration hard liner hitting serious trouble. I'm gonna tell you why it matters in thirty seconds. News tonight, on know, Trump search for a hardliner to run immigration policy, and this may dredge up nightmarish memories for Trump. It involves one of the things that he detests, most rejection and criticism and this from his own adopted party for the full context that helps to remember Donald Trump's rocky path to the Republican nomination when party leaders blasted him as a fraud, and fake conservative. Now, the leader in this effort was Senator Ted Cruz who came at Trump from the right? But yet mess with my wife, you mess with my kids, that'll do it every time Donald, you're a sniveling coward leave, Heidi the hell alone. This man is in pathological. He lies. Practically every word that comes out of a narcissist at a level. I don't think this country's ever seen crews fraud. Trump all the way to the convention debating the rules poaching delegates for stop Trump is effort that was all planned to stage, some sort of humiliating floor vote, they're not a lead this bare knuckle campaign cruise tapped, this guy, hen Cuccia Elliott. Former attorney general pugnacious enough to take on that longshot assignment challenging his own party's plan nominee, and our leaders and GOP congressional, he was basically his whole party all to stop. Trump and try to make Ted Cruz the nominee now, bucking Republican leaders may sound like a kamikaze mission for a Republican official and candidate who might want to run again. But this is sort of Kuching alleys thing he was out there, attacking John bainer calling him hostile and saying he betrayed the Republican party. And during the RNC launched this attack on Mitch McConnell. Mitch McConnell, doesn't represent Republicans. Use the least favourably considered Senator in America among Republican senators. I mean he is Lowe's. Among by the Republican grassroots lows. Okay, hootenanny blasting the most powerful Republican in office and his turn against Trump was widely seen as a real effort at the time, reporters covering him as the leader of the floor fight for a last ditch effort to derail Trump's nomination involved backroom negotiating at the convention, theatrics and even some ca- vetting about how the party rules were unfair. Violated the rules in the run-up to. Geeky stuff, right? But they didn't give the committee members. Of, of each other, which the rules call for look at one of the amendment. It's, it's, it's petty who Cinelli also stressed. This was about more than rules, insisting wall, the convention approach, this was a key moment that Trump was not even a conservative. This may be like reliving, a recurring nightmare for Donald Trump. And this formulation by Cuccia Anneli is kind of a recurring claim because he likes to say he's the only conservative, not Trump, not McConnell and that comes up again in a moment now at the convention, you know which nearly did not prevail because well Ted Cruz is not president. Would you remember how it went down? It started with the kind of prop work that only a lawyer turned candidate could love credential games that were too much for even Donald Trump junior. The same group of people running around, they wait for a camera to show up, and then they take their credentials and tried to dramatically. Throw them on the floor. They look like idiots, Ken kitchen, Elliot's you calling him an idiot. I think these people look like idiots when they're doing. After that loss crews marched out, and he told the delegates vote, their conscience Trump then storm the convention floor and crews would ultimately contradict himself later because he took that risk on stage. But then buckled, the Trump how 'bout his handpicked leader of the stop Trump conventional revolt. Where's he now? And he guesses is he backing another Republican primary challenger to Trump. Maybe governor weld. Is he working in Washington advocate, Detroit convert conservatism that he said, Trump lacked, where's he buying for a job working for Trump? Yes. Kuching Anneli is now set to be Trump's nominee to run the immigration system. Washington Post reporting Trump's plan to tap coochie. Nellie extends the purge of leadership at DHS. And this is where we're at Donald Trump urged his own appointees because they weren't conservative enough on immigration. He's playing to replace them with someone who said, Trump is not conservative enough. Now, maybe the president figures handing the keys on immigration to a former Trump critic sends a message, maybe next Anne Coulter will run ice as for coochie Nellie. He's explained to his Trump conversion with pragmatism. Look. Are we going to be happy with everything that happens in Gong's on presents? No. But are we going to be unhappy with everything that happens in a Hillary presidency? Oh, yes, this isn't just a story of Donald and Ken, because even if they evolved towards each other. What about all those Republican leaders in congress who clashed with Kuch Anneli after all he's pen, pals with Mitch McConnell. He wrote the majority leader, an open letter calling for his resignation, citing his failure of leadership saying, you are the swamp. You don't even show up for work, and America's too good for you to lead it. So how is Trump's plan to appoint Kuch Anneli playing on the hill and night? Well political reports Republicans ready to quash him. They say this looming fight is the climax of those Republicans years long battle with Cuccia Nellie, and his organization, which is to house, GOP incumbents, politically, this puts McConnell and his team in a tough spot do. They oppose both Trump and self described conservative on this immigration issue. Obviously, they don't want to be seen doing this. Over personal beef and putting their political squabble, which she wouldn't even know about unless you're kind of a Senate politics junkie, putting that above the nation's immigration policy. So do they have some other reason to explain opposing their pen, pal nemesis? Gucci nellie. No. And this political piece that's out about all this. Senate Republicans say, yeah, it's all personal this is about what Kuch Nelly said about them. So I just want to pause on this, this is twenty nine thousand nine for you. Politicians don't even pretend they're making these decision on the merits immigration policy is important, but not as important as what you said about me. They might argue or is important as you backing a different Republican in the past election. I don't want to be too high minded but I do want to say this to you tonight. This is supposed to be a democracy is not gonna work. Well, if the punishment for opposing someone in election has never allowing them into public service. So there may be logical objections can Kuch Anneli, there may be many of them. That's just not one of them. Now McConnell control the Senate floor he could deny. Vote just ask Merrick garland, which McConnell recently celebrated complete with the double standard. Let me tell you. If I'm still the majority of the center, thank me reaper. None of that stuff is going to know. So publicans might marinate in this another bare knuckled arena, deflects their power. But I'm this one column I actually fail because the White House is prepping to do an end run around him and install Kuch Anneli in an acting role. Voiding the fight with the Senate. GOP congressional Republicans have already seated a lot of power to Trump. They surrended surrendered oversight or funding powers that might restrict this reliance on the acting secretaries. In fact, I want you to know right now there are temporary acting leaders and posts at the Pentagon homeland security budget, even Trump's own White House chief of staff and dozens more senior acting roles across the government about just over a dozen more. So maybe Senate Republicans don't care about any of this until it hits home, and they want to keep Ken Kuching Noli out of government because he was mean to them. Maybe only in this petty Washington game. Do people realize that seating, these unitary powers of the president any president won't work well in the long run? And now McConnell may be hoisted on his own proverbial political petty petard, procedurally bludgeoned by Trump's tactic and Trump can use these powers to help the connel's nemesis while he just has to look on now. I could leave it all there and people who dislike some of those folks might enjoy that, but I have to tell you one more thing apart from the politics, the man, who would assume these acting powers in this end run around the Senate is not exactly known for being restrained or conservative, about federal power. Mr. coochie Nellie has advocated deploying War Powers for domestic and border activities like patrolling migration, and it was that war footing. He invoked before Trump was ever, an office, accusing Obama of an invasion of immigrants. He backed something that could literally be unconstitutional, trying to end the American tradition that people who are born here, our citizens, and he wants compared immigration policy to pest control. This is the person that Senate Republicans opposed for other reasons, and this is the person who, if you haven't heard about it, because there's a lot going on. This is the person who Donald Trump wants to put in charge of our entire immigration system. If that took a long time to go through it's because it matters. And we need to know the history to know where we're going. Now, I want you to stay with me because after the break as promise the bestselling author. Michael Wolfe is here on the beat for the very first time he's gonna detail a lot of what he says, is chaos and infighting at this White House. Good to have you here. When we come back. Why didn't Bob Muller sue Donald Trump to get that interview? Why wasn't Bob Muller clear in his public conclusions? My next guest, says that his new reporting may reveal some of the answers, which are not in the written Mullah report itself, that selling author Michael Wolfe. Says he's talked to a host of Trump world, people also obtained secret memos from inside Muller's team, including research. And what would happen if Trump tried to fire Mueller or pardon people or pardon himself? All of it is in the new book, siege a sequel to his blockbuster fire and fury, which you may remember it solo over four million copies around the world earned a threat of a lawsuit from Donald Trump and was associated with the removal of Steve Bannon, from the White House, not your typical book how you doing? I'm great. Thank you for having me, your first time on the beat. You got a lot of stuff in here and I'm delighted to be here. I'm happy to have you. You're also a controversial author, we'll get to that. But let's start with what you say you found secret internal memos that, no one. Else's ever gotten before, which explored the potential limits on the molar pro explain all of these memos. If you read through these memos you come up with one conclusion, which is that the special counsel is a very, very fragile construct that they could be. It could disappear any moment. The memos are series of series of questions. Can the president of the United States unilaterally fire the special counsel? And let's read the answer because it was clear than some of other things Muller has said, here's the answer. According to your reporting, quote, the president could fire the special counsel die recklessly, and you say that was the molar office conclusion. Right. So that was different from, you remember all of that discussion that you have to go through Rosenstein a set of layers. And the, the special counsel, this memo concludes not necessarily one of the other interesting things is what happens to the work product of the special counsel. If the special counsel is fired, and the answer is unclear but it might will be in the memo describes that it could just be. A toss away shredded gone. So there's a very reading through this, you come again, to that conclusion that they were aware at every moment of the day. And remember every moment of the day, pretty much Donald Trump is threatening them. They're aware that this could that this could result in effective constitutional crisis, rather, the mother of all constitutional crises and to your point on old. Trump also is doing in public would pass presence would only do in private. He is musing in tweeting about pardoning himself or others. In one of the memos you say, you obtained a you say MOS office concluded, the president can pardon his family members or close associates, even for the purposes of impeding an investigation. One of our experts when we covered this news, that you broke said this sounds like people in Moore's office. Trying to explain why they weren't more aggressive. I don't know if that's what it was. But I rather look at it just by what I have if this is the situation if the special counsel is exposed as this, then perhaps, if you're Bob Muller, and if you see your job as defending the institution, rather than I prosecuting the president. Well, I think than, than you might might will say better to give Donald Trump a pass a slight pass on this. So this rather than risk him going nuts. This is fascinating because they're the memos. And then there's a larger depiction and you reported the memo's, as you know, some people may still not believe you, the larger reporting. I read the whole book, let's me with the impression that you're. Elective account was that for all of the basically, the excitement around the molar probe as you just put it the fragility. There was actually inside it a great deal of consternation or even legally required weakness. I came to the conclusion that one of their missions, primary missions became not to be fired. Not to be closed that a mistake. I, I don't know. I mean, I think that I mean, I guess, in a world in which you, would you would say, here's the alternative Donald Trump literally creates a mob. As I say, the mother of all Constan crisis. End of the world style. Or, you know, you run this out, I think Bob Muller, probably thought again, I'm reading reading into what he might have thought since he's a sphinx. That, that Donald Trump will pass a couple more years of Donald Trump versus a. A crisis in the government, like we have never seen. And so that, when you say it that way, I think people do understand that interpretation because Muller certainly seemed like someone playing by the book and not trying to over shoot or be too aggressive with the president. Oh, I mean, I've always thought it'd be interesting to see if there was someone else in this in this role, rather than than than Bob Muller, like I thought, I thought, what if in a different world than alternative universe Rudy Giuliani had been this been the special counsel. No doubt in my mind would would've indicted that son of a bitch. So that's quite a line. So this goes to another paradox in your reporting, and your first book, as I mentioned, was quite influential, and had a lot of detail and backroom detail in it in this book, you seem to seem to sketch, a paradox where on the one hand Donald Trump and his team are inexperienced and often undisciplined, but the other hand when it comes to self-preservation Donald Trump is quite canny. And you show that you, you basically show he got where he needed to get a venture with Muller, probe and rattling Muller's. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things about about about Donald Trump, which which everybody in his circle, repeat pointed out to me, again, and again, and again, is that he's been in litigation for forty five years. Almost nonstop. I mean his whole life. I mean is really whole life is not is not real estate and business. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's fighting fighting legal battles. He spent as much time in court and TV is judge Judy the two places he went, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's literally him running lawyers in a way that, that, that is either absurd. Or possibly brilliant. Was he underrated? I think that, that Donald Trump's version his approach to this, a synchronous city. One of the things I sort of toggle between is, is, is, this is the story of Donald Trump. Richard, the third Shakespearian like that. Or is it the Beverly hillbillies go to Washington? And I kind of think that there isn't that Beverly hillbillies things he he's, he's Muller in the whole the whole institutional establishment approach this in conventional ways. And here's Donald Trump doing things which they have never signed because your book with all the Mola reporting lands at an interesting time where the country. Now eight days ago saw Bob Muller speak for the first time and is trying to understand how someone who was rated so high ended this way and Donald Trump who on law and ethics and many other issues, according to a lot of Americans is rated so low. I'm a little bit. Reminded of Sean Carter. Jay Z sure, you know of him who rhetorically asked. Would you rather be overpaid or underrated? And the question is was was Muller in some sense overrated for this job. I think you know, there's Steve Bannon that one point. We. After the Miller report came out. He said. Bannon kind of leaned in and said, said to me, never send them marine to hit man's job. Well, which seems to really resonate with what they were worried about Muller was going to do, and what some people, legally said he didn't do, which is, as you say land that legal killer, low, we used to having for a second. Sure, I'm going to fit in a lot more, including why Mr Wolf says he has the goods and the receipts to show it's all a psycho drama at the White House when we come back. A new book roiling, the White House by author, Michael Wolff. It depicts chief of staff John Kelly saying this about the president, he's out of control. Nobody can even carry this any more. What impact does Donald Trump's approach to life and human relations have on these people who give their careers and part of their lives. You know, I, I think it's the overriding factor in this in this White House. I mean, I think you can innocence put aside policy. You know, I mean, I think it used to be worried about him because he's a far right wing. He was a despot. He was all of all of that, that, which may will be true, but the real bottom line here is, is that he is first thing that he, he treats his staff terribly, they don't know how to work with him because because he's he can't focus. He can't absorb information he can't do. He doesn't really have any of the skill sets of a president of the United States on top of that. He, he, he, he regards them all as expendable. And, and in fact, the entire the entire class that entered with him in on January twentieth. Two thousand seventeen is virtually gone the class that replaced them. Right. He's virtually God. Then and then you have the people he worked with you report, the Senator McConnell view. Donald Trump is quote the stupidest person he'd. Ever met in politics, his wife, Elaine Chao regularly mocked, and mimic, Trump is a set piece. They've performed I, I think I can go, I think I can go further than that. It said anybody in the last three years, who has come into direct contact with Donald Trump understands that there's something wrong here. Something broken in him that he is a. Vile and ludicrous figure and what has broken within him. I I'm not sure I can go there, but I would say it has probably has something to do with forty five years of just craving. Attention and spending every waking moment in your life trying to get attention. Moves. Yeah. Thing from you. Is he a constant or is he deteriorating in your view? I'm not going gonna I'm not going to go there in, in a way. I found him I used to speak to him when I was at New York magazine. Late nineties early two thousands. He used to call me up a lot because to complain about what had been written about him or more often than not when something was not written about about him. And I thought he was he was he seemed crazy to me then but amusing because who cared so to me, that is the same person except he's been transformed into the president as, as I gotta finish break, I should mention the Justice department as we previously reported has contested parts of the book. The White House says you are pushing lies and fantasy and you'll come back. We'll talk about all of it again. Michael Wolff, very interesting. Thank you. The book is siege. Trump under fire it's out now. And when I come back news that could lead to a different contempt vote. After this. Breaking news, type before we go new from Bill, bars Justice department. They're rejecting a demand for documents from the Democrats in the house oversight committee, which the Pena's about getting material on those very controversial citizenship questions on the census, this could set up a different contempt vote for Mr. bar. The full house is scheduled to vote to hold barn content next Tuesday already that was all about the scuffle over the full unredacted Mullah report before we go. I also want to tell you, I guess, tomorrow we have former general counsel for the FBI, Jim Baker, and a very special fallback that king of funk. George Clinton joins Pulitzer prize winning journalists and humanitarian Nick Kristof excited to have them on together and that does it for the beat. Hi, it's joy Reid. If you love MSNBC where your heart on your sleeve at MSNBC store dot com, you can gear up with t shirts. Hoodies hats mugs and more from AM joy. And all your favorite MSNBC shows shop now at MSNBC store dot com.