Change is in the Air #246


Welcome to new media show folks. And of course, my name is Todd Cochran. I want to and I wanna I wanna introduce my owes Mr. rob Greenlee, who has the most notches on his podcasting men, -pointment belts, anyway. Good morning. Rob, welcome to the show. It's great to be back with the new media show. I know we haven't been as, as regular with the show lately, because of lots of changes going on and travels that were on and I was back at the outlier podcast festival last weekend. So, you know, and then tied you're, you're pulling your studio apart. So it's kind of hard to make everything, you know, work, well as podcasters when you're when you're out of the pocket and destroying your studio, right? Well, yeah, I'm, I'm doing this. I'm doing this show from my couch in my living room and literally the, the studio isn't a container of course. On the last show. We said we're going to have one more live show. And then what we are live now, but not as live as we normally are being video wise. But after we got off the show, you said, oh, by the way, I'll be in Austin. I'm like, well, I guess this was the last show. Of course, we couldn't announce it on the podcast. By did put it in the show notes. But anyway, everyone welcome back and rob holy cow, dude. I'm like, I'm, I'm like you sent me little, no say. Hey, by the way, today was molest day at, at speaker. And, and whenever you sent me to know what he says, even under wraps, but I'm going to work for Lipson. I'm like what loops? Guess what? What is this? You know, I've got to Rob's. I have to bash I'm like, maw. Oh my God. It's all healthy Todd. It's all healthy. You know, it's just like I'm just okay? Here's a prediction folks today is may, what is it may twenty fifth two thousand nineteen USO. Give raw we'll give give this rob about three years, and then who knows where he's going to go work for maybe we'll go for luminary or somebody like that in two yours. It's all about. It's life is adventure. Todd definitely yes, it is. Yeah, I was I was with the spreaker for about four years. So it was K said put about three, I think I was making a prediction in as talking with the internal team at the company and is how long to the to rob seventh fistfight. So I was thinking to myself in a YouTube guys are completely little complete literally completely different. So I'm thinking, and this has to how long before those to have have a blowout, and then one of the other leaves, so we're predicting three years. I've been friends with rob for how many years now, it's been, probably at least close to fourteen years now. So, yeah, we'll see. But at least it's been easy because you've got robbed from Lipson. We've random speaker. And then, you know it so it's now it's like you're gang gang of. Bob. It is because, you know there has been a lot of teasing on that that's been going on online about. It's not rob. It's now the rubs. So, so I do have to ask because he you or second. So it's, it's Robert Lipson dot com for rob walls. What would Email address did you end up with rob g so? Rob is rob w now and I'm rob g so years, the Email over there is totally screwed because he's been robbed at Lipson dot com for since God was born. So anyway, it he's going to get my mail, and sometimes I Don, I probably won't give his male. But sometimes he's gonna get my mail. I think. So you haven't over to the dark side, what, what is up with that? Wow. I don't know. It's like an interesting place to go. You know, if, if I think about it, that company was around when I started in the puck casting space, and, and it seemed like an interesting opportunities. So, you know, I I gave it a shot. And, and I'm the team is welcoming and, and the, the Lipson. And tools is is doing doing fantastic. And, you know, if I can add to that, and, and make things even even better and stronger over there, you know. So be it. That's that's you know, that's a strong company and, and it's not to take anything away from what you built out. I think what you built is fantastic company too. So I think all of us can can can compete healthily, as well, as, you know, kind of cooperate to so I think that's going to continue to, to happen as we because I think we have bigger obstacles that we need to all focus, our attention on as we look to the future of this, this podcasting, medium, I, I would think you would agree if because of some of the topics that we have coming up. Oh my goodness. Yeah. On the show this week. So hey just by the way, you cut out for about ten seconds there. So. Oh, we missed an im- for the record. I'm not controlling the recording of this. I could immune it, rob. If I wanted to. But rob we missed the your new title over there. What, what is your times? VP of content and partnerships. Okay. All right. So maybe got hurt on your end. But I definitely didn't hear it cut out on the side on Skype. So. So until now. Oh, okay. All right. Yeah. Because it just all of a sudden, you're gone there for a second. But anyway, well, that's good. Well, congratulations on the move. I'm still going to have to tease you on this and we expect through. So. All right. Well, cool. I think that. Just kinda get us on topic here. And of course, exciting to see your switch here. But I, I posted on Facebook earlier in the week in the podcast movement group, just a little post in just basically inventing a little bit on going back to the IP podcast measurement guidelines in that we continue to have companies that are saying, they're compliant with the guidelines, and obviously, they're not, and then it would totally and I didn't have any advance notice of any announcements being made or any blog post by Ron Isley the following day pod track posted a blog post saying that there were taking a significant haircut. Cut an in basically to become by be compliant. Well to be certified, and I am of course, I've kind of known for awhile that their numbers were. For better word high man. They, they public acknowledged that in a blog post and talking about the haircut. So they're, they're taking they say twenty percent I think, for podcasters it's going to be much more, personally, I think the delta is near double bat, but we'll see as as they as they make these changes. But there were telltale signs in their top ten report that something was amiss because the numbers had dropped dramatically from the month before. So we all knew that companies. We're going to make an adjustment as they went through certification. But you know the thing against that. Well, it played into my post, I'll be honest, a lucky on that one, but it played into my post in that we've been going around since January talking to media buyers, big, big holding groups big holding groups hold, you know, huge percentages of digital advertising and all of them pretty much to a t we don't have a problem. We don't have a problem, we don't have a problem. And I just I wonder you know, I like Mark and his team over there. He's not is engaged with the community as I would say you, I and an rob, rob walls, you don't see pod track it advance. And they, they work with a lot of big networks. They go to a big events, but they're, they're, they're really kind of, you know, talking to. They're big partners. Yeah. I mean agreed. They're, they're not as engaged. I don't believe Mark is ever had a podcast has himself, it fits in the my, my rant here in that what happens now. Okay. So if Padre spin the numbers have been high. What happens for all these companies have been billing media buyers now with their numbers. Right. It's, you know. Certainly true that the looks like we're not through the haircut in phase. I would have thought that we would have been through more of the, of the trimming of the numbers, as I say, as which turning out to be the case because the guidelines the V, two spec came out a long time ago. And for us to be continuing to have companies take large percentage, you know, cut downs and reductions is a little unfortunate to, to see happen in my view. But I think it is the reality of the the market, though. You know, I'm I'm just happy that happening. In, if sometimes it can be embarrassing for the platforms because they've made claims that are otherwise and, and that is that is unfortunate. You know, but the process is creating changes, this certification is basically exposing the, the inflated numbers that existed out there and in many will will tell you that. Even the numbers. Can you trust those two and it's like, well, it's, you know, it's like this argument that all numbers counting numbers in the digital realm are, are not trustable. But I think I mean of any of the, the numbers out there, whether counting banners or counting other types of, of activities on online. I, I mean, how many years did thirty six companies spend trying to come up with the standard way of counting? And I think it's as good as we're ever going to get I don't know what you think taught on that. Well, I'm gonna be Frank. Well, okay. Let let's just back up for the people are not tuned in and is, you know, when we. And we go all the way back to, like two thousand eight. A group of us kind of got together in the eighty m associates downloaded median came up with a set of standards. They were not as extensive as the IB, but it was up. It was a good start. In a fundamentals of that. Document did end up in the IB B one B two documents. So when, when we heard that the IBM formed a podcast committee to. Work on standards. We weren't involved with IB at that time, Lipson wasn't Patrick was it. And we all quickly rushed and signed up for the IB to be part of this audio committee, so that we could have a say, and we kind of joined would you say we joined midstream of that conversation. Was early early days, yet it was early on that, that group because back, then I was working at podcast. One. In. That's the new guys all came in. In an added a lot to the conversation. I mean, I, I think the group that was there was probably not entirely happy that you guys came in, but oh no, not at all. They were not happy because we came in a literally dumped over the applecart, right? And we talked about this on this show. If you go back in history, we talked about this, and that those discussions were not without pain, this P A, I N, and it really boiled down to the point where we were being tested to prove our. So we had this big meeting at NABC, or as meaning of technical mom taught is explaining how the, the early days of the, the working podcast metrics, working group, kind of formed in the early days in, in how it was primarily a group of broadcasters or online. Pot podcasters. Yeah. So I don't know where you left off that really the. IB paint point here was is that we had to prove what we were saying was in the fact. And, and finally over time everyone kind of came into alignment, the end we worked over sticking points. And again, this was a huge effort. There's a lot of companies involved. A lot of people are silent lotta people were weighing in numbers. Vocal characters like us like Lipson like pod track. There was a very vocal folks from podcast, one Nina, and I had to be careful because I don't want to get get into the to deepen the weeds, because I'd probably get in trouble. But, you know, there was lots of healthy discussions to get us to where we were. You know, I think that the discussion back then was. You know, all these companies had a different perspective on it, and how how to do it. I know podcast, one had a very distinct in different view on how to how to count this stuff. And it was a combination of data rower did data combined with survey data and it didn't turn out that, that was the model that was going to be acceptable because this is a digital medium, not a not a broadcast medium combined with digital. I mean, that was an analogy that, that. Wasn't going to work. As you look to the future. And it didn't. The digital side the pure, digital one as far as the, the model that the metrics was built around and it probably doesn't do too much help to spend too much time talking about that. Because. Where we are today, so much more advanced so much more. Reflective of the real user process that happens when when users listen to a podcast. And that's that was the whole point right to go hit. Yes. I, I think we in oh, we put a lot of blood sweat, and tears into this thing. And everyone did and the IB everyone's kind of some, the post, I've seen recently has made the IB out to be this big evil entity. But all they were was specifically Tators of the conversation of companies that you work with today and the podcasting space. It wasn't this outside entity of groups that came in and said, this is what we're going to dictate upon the podcasting community. We dictated this upon ourselves. And so. So I was shocked the other day when a couple of people came in and said, we don't need this. This is wrong. We don't trust it. We don't believe the data we don't we don't we want a new something else. And I'm like, whoa. And in fact, I had a a ticket. A tech sport ticket come in from a customer who said and she didn't. And it was I, I was confused initially in, and she said, we're the other numbers and I'm like, I'm like, what, what, what other numbers, what are we referring to the non IB numbers? And I'm like. There are no other numbers with us. We have one set of numbers, that are IB Pontius measuring guidelines version. Two compliant certified or certified compliant. We don't have another set of non IB numbers. In matter of fact, we've never had a different set of numbers, but she wanted those other set of numbers 'cause she didn't wanna Bill her media buyer with those numbers. So it the that was a double whammy form as like whoa. What? So I had to go through an almost be Email. Tell her this exact kind of conversation. We're having here. So, you know this audience has should be well attuned to it. But then, you know, we've got people we understand that DR is in fact, most media buyers have a weighted. Waited. I os farce how much they pay each company based upon DR DR performance coming out of different groups. So different different podcasting companies that rep companies are that rump rep podcasters may actually get different payment rates based upon how they do reporting back to those buyers, it's been said, publicly by media buyers that they know they get better, you know, the same exact campaign across five hundred shows, you know on one one network of the performance is much different and they paid them a much different rate than they would another network and solarge -ly they've back it back out based upon performance. So the numbers are not as important in Biard from PM standpoint put bluntly ad deals are still. Done. The ac-. PM. I mean, it's a it's a measurement of performance is really where it comes into. Why it's important. So, so I had someone told me you don't talk with you. This is not how at deals are done anymore. And I'm like K I that's news to me that were, and he has some shows you pay get paid a flat rate. Some pay shows a pay more premium on because they have more engagement. Yeah, of course, there's variables there, but on the for the majority, you usually lumped in at a pretty similar CPM for individuals. Because my I don't break out shows often I often do book deals, so you know we all run at the same CPM rate. So. But I'm just a little surprised about some, some podcasters pushback. And I. The did you see that thread? What did you think which thread, the one on Facebook about? Yeah. The whole I, I mean I thought there was. I think the, the thrust of that conversation was really about. Are, are we going to? Guess demonize companies that are there announcing taking a haircut in their numbers or we just going to be kind of, like, really, really proactive about it. And just say, you know. If, if you've been putting out incorrect numbers. Let's just all get on the same page in just be up front about it as much as possible, and just remember. Yeah. But just remember I wasn't writing about pod track. When I wrote the posts originally, I didn't know that they were going to nounce, they are cut the next day, had no clue but, but, but it came out, you know. And that's what kind of an other people. Kind of pointed it out. Right. And, and that kind of took the conversation that you had started up, there cutting the bigger conversation that you had in your particular post was was more about this distinction between companies saying that their compliance rang when, when they may be aren't, you know, in and they definitely aren't if they're not certified, right, so. Right. Because most of the companies that have gone through, and this is what I've heard anyway, and I can I can speak from a little bit of experience here. Most of the companies that have been through this terrific ation process had to make some adjustments. Not. I think worthy adjustments have been is kind of ahead of relative degree, right? I mean it could be a minor one could be small one and those that have been really fully supportive of the Abie metrics standard probably didn't have to take much of a haircut. But it's the truth be told is sometimes there's code that doesn't get changed. Exactly or the white list, or the blacklist it hasn't really been fully built out, right to to block Botts and things like that, that are making file requests or certain podcasts catchers that are making duplicate requests for media files or head requests versus file requests, or those in the system is counting. Those is multiple requests. So I think there's lots of issues that can come up in a network that may be either overlooked. And didn't get really looked at with a fine tooth comb that happens with the certification process as we. Yeah. So things can get exposed. I think we're you were pointing it out was kind of like it seemed like it was kind of more of a blatant, kind of deception, right? Of saying that you're compliant. But maybe the people that are making those claims don't aren't coders, right. Aren't in the code to know what's really going on. Right. And nobody's done that actual comparison that can only happen from a certification process to, to, to really know. But I was definitely glad to see that Patrick came out and just, you know, fessed up and said, you know, we're not there and we're going to be there. And, and it, it looks like they've, they've been proactive and taking a haircut here and I think that gets us to where we all want to be. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad that they have because we knew that there was a problem. Right. So they'll, they've acknowledged that they had a problem just like what you were seeing it. I know James Cridland was seeing it as well. Yeah. So I mean it isn't that. Anybody's wrong here. I think you know, I think maybe there was a little bit of a deception that was going on. But that could be just ignorance who knows. You know. It's hard to point the finger too hard at that, you know, because we all had to take care cuts. It's just like I've been saying for a long time, it's better to take the haircut as soon as possible than it is to put it off. Because if you're going to put off taking this haircut, it's only gonna get worse. And we realize that, that the redirect. That's a big there was some there was some fundamental things with redirect. And, and maybe they didn't realize in, in a we realized that early on. And maybe they didn't realize as soon just because there's not as much data in the redirect in, you know, where the two that do the majority of redirect, there's, I think, two more, they're out there that do redirect stats. So in nothing is better than the hosting stats, obviously, because, you know, we've had to make well, I'll just and I think it said on the last show. If you're on a if you're with blueberry, at least and you're on the redirect and use switch to, to the to hosting you actually might see an increase in your download numbers not a lot, but a little a little. The way right? Because because there's more data coming in right? There's more data to qualify. The key is. It's all about in the qualifying of the of the download so sometimes there's not we don't get as much data in, in the redirect in it's for a variety of reasons, so it is what it is just because it's the limitation of the, you know, of what you're collecting. So I think that. You know, we'd kind of seen some of that, but, you know, you're right to about the blacklist and this was another point that one of the action, the same Email thread ahead with this client. They basically said, we don't want you to use a blacklist. And I'm like, so you want me to remove every AWS server every data center, computer every Microsoft as your every Google cloud. You want me to remove all those computers from our exclusion list, and basically, the client said, yes, I'm like no. Because what will happen, what will happen is in. It's just like okay so if we remove bots. Do you know how much of an increase people's downloads, would go up of Rabi move bots? It would be be will be like, oh my God. My audience has doubled, right? It's literally that much traffic that is junk, right? It's not audience. That's the thing. No, it's not audience in some sheen. It's computers, ping, some part of the assess feed their box that their Botts that download rob download entire media files, y I don't know they're dumb. Why is the bought downloading the media foul, and it has nothing? It's easy. We go and look at the research, and we say, what is this body related to companies running it? Why is that by downloading podcasts and they download the whole file? There are, are platforms out there that are selling downloads, you know, coming in by downloads, right? Right. Well, I don't know things that you need to, to block. So, so it's I don't want to beat a dead horse here too far. But. I think that. If you have a problem with the I, B podcast measurement guidelines, you need to start coming back to the podcast companies that made those guidelines, and asking questions, don't blame the I b again, I e was the facilitator of the conversation and help the shape. Boy, it was not an enviable position for them to be. 'cause they had to, you know, help guide and direct and help us stay focused on getting this thing done. It was not was not easy. Well, let's be honest about who thought I mean for first period of time, there was a faction in the group and the be working group. The was not a fan of downloads. And even addressing the whole issue of downloads was not something that the people will really wanted to even deal with it's almost like they, I don't know. I mean, it was kind of really not very rational, but will, but but, but a chunk of the people that were involved in the AB, working group fairly early on were people that were more on the streaming side, are they would prefer that this be more of a streaming medium? So it's and to some degree. I think that's still exists. And I think we start looking at these music streaming services and you can kind of see where that's going. I did notice that Google was doing more with that auto downloading. So, I think as far as in their Google podcast area, it seems like that there's more stuff going on there. So which is good. But, but yeah, Todd. I this whole conversation about companies claiming to be compliance. In the whole confusion that exists around. What is I be compliance? Right. Because the I has confused things for us by making the certification a compliance situation. Right. So I mean, have you. I mean, what are we gonna do about that problem because I think that's that really cuts to the core of this whole issue is the hasn't really been clear in their specifications, and their certification identification right there. They're button that you put on your, your website, stating that you're certified in ISA state, that you're certified to be compliant, not just compliant because lots of companies have been claiming compliance as we've seen, and then turned out not to be right. Yeah, I probably don't want to. Lay out what I have discussed with the I let your imagination on that wrote up terminate conversation enough, but, but then the list the that's the crux of the of the issue. Right. Is, is how do we get this conversation to be changed in the direction that it needs to be in? That's, that's I'm not I'm not scared of talking about that or or wanting to, to have that change happen. I think it's, it's, it's an obvious thing in my view, but. The IUD is going to make a make this make a change or not. I think, well, one thing that, you know, there's been some discussion about a couple of loopholes that are in the guidelines and been wanting to close some of those loopholes and. I think of myself and a couple of other people are very much in favor of closing a couple of loopholes. But I think it's for a better word here. There's resistance by maybe a few people to, to close to close those loopholes. So what would you say is an example of one of, of a loophole? Well, let me see let me find the actual conversation here that. That happened make no pack talking about a methodology of counting. Or are you talking about? I mean, is there some flexibility in the spec is that what you're saying, as far as a loophole or last talk about that? It gives there's language in the in the podcast measurement guidelines is that it's about the window. It's about the twenty four hour window rolling versus static. Right. Is the well I'm not so worried about I'm not I'm not worried about rolling or static. I think either one of those methods is fine. I think, you know, Lipson I think you guys use a rolling. We use a static, probably the rolling window is you get a few more downloads out of rolling window that need about of a static window not much. I think we did the, the novelists, and it was it. I mean it was like almost nothing. So I don't think that there is a. But companies are allowed to use a window other than twenty four hours, but they have to describe their methodology and why they use a window different than twenty four hours. I think I would like to have that window the forced window of twenty four hours be set. Right. It's not currently thought it was thought you had to be at a twenty four hour window in order to be certified. Well, they can use any windows, long as they explain why they're using a different window. That's the kicker here. Oh, tha that's, that's loophole. You're talking about right? And I'd like to have that loophole closed. And there's some that are probably very resistant to closing that loophole. I mean so the line really taught to all this, you know, when we started talking about loopholes that were still going to see very ability between platforms and in numbers. Right. So if you're doing a podcast and you move from one platform to the other, there's a very good chance that you're going to see changes in your numbers. Well, if they're if they're on a twenty four hour window fixed a rolling. I think the that'd be hardly it very minimal minimal. But yes. But if they go to a host sits on a twelve hour window wrote the Neo. Yeah. Eve, big difference. Yeah. Right. Right. But so I'm you know, I'm reading the certification coming out very closely because I'm looking to see looking for any language that indicates some anyone, I wanna know if someone gets a certification outside of a twenty four hour window. Right. And, and the justification and the and how their accounting for the potential for increased. For double-counting. So. So, you know that, you know, that's one just what in a in relief of all that pages of that document if I'm got that as a single concern, I think, we're pretty close to, you know to where we need to be. But I am just. Podcasts are say that I don't have to worry about this compliance. Not worry about certification media buyers, don't care. Well, maybe the DR folks don't and that's okay. If the DR folks don't there they're cross that begin back to performance on how, how many would you say sold, but to get tied and Ford and Geico, and, you know, Sony, and all these big national brands to come in and do brand ads. You know, we ought to be on the same page, and maybe maybe in the end, maybe it will, maybe this'll be all from you. Maybe those being a buyers when never come in and spend money in the space. But this is what the media buyers have told us, this is what we were told by all these groups this is why the big brands are not coming in, because there's too much variability in the space. Routine due to agree. So. And we're there they're actually getting when they buy something. Right. Right. I know we spend a lot of time on this particular topic, and maybe the audience is tired of it, but I guess I just need the audiences help, and helping them understand that will the main two points, the guidelines were done by podcasting companies that you work with today and not by some in on they referred to us as suits on, like my God. Please do not refer to me as a suit, I am not a suit. I was part of the original, you know, stick it to the man, you know. Rabble group of podcasters that were in the beginning of this space snow. Yeah, that's how this medium started. I you know, I can't talk about that enough. That that's the original culture of this medium was as a as a reaction to over commercialization and consolidation of radio. I mean that's one of the, the motivations behind the existence of the podcasting realm. I mean, if I go back to the early days of the medium running advertising was not cool in your now. And in at the same also it was about no one controlling distribution in the end. That's what it still is today is, there's no one controlling distribution. Although that everyone's worried about some groups coming in and trying to in, you know, put their pressure on controlling distribution. I it's our sets us off free. It's not possible for the medium to be controlled. Now that said there are. Always gonna be some verticals that do their own thing. And if you wanna be on those verticals participate in their ecosystem while, you know, they're going to do things their way in. That's the way it is. So so be it. I don't care where people listened to the content long as they listen, right? The true you know, it's all about building audience. And if you can be being all the places that people listen to spoken word audio, then then you, you more likely to be successful. So I think. That's, that's the backbone of this medium. So anyway, we beat a dead horse here quite a bit. So what else is happening in space wrong? We'll all sorts of stuff. I mean I mean, if you look in the, the news of, you know, there's activity going around. I, I know Spotify announced that there they had a product that they were they were involved in, I guess that's browser base podcasts audio editor. So they're getting involved in. Helping people create contents and Google podcasts is, I guess, you know, enabling downloading so lots of stuff going on that, that side of stuff is there anything that jumped out for Utah? Well, I think the Google enabling downloading is in actually promoting it. This is big and it goes. Right. Ben back to that. The download is still king, my friends say what you will. Now, streaming, you know, Spotify streaming so, you know, that's you know, making headway iheartmedia. I had to laugh little bit because they reached two hundred and fifty thousand shows over there. And by the way, rob geek, new central was a finally approved to be on iheart media after being I think my application in was in for a year. So they've, they've definitely turned on the I think they're figuring out more is better in new can't be you can't be as restrictive and who you having on your platform. So, so that's good at the same time the I, I had to giggle, when they said they had two hundred fifty thousand podcasts, they didn't really say, how many, those were actually active though the, the numbers that we're seeing right now. And we did some some new runs for the month in it probably will come out in a in New York Times article here soon is the for April. We saw hundred thirty one thousand shows the head created a new episode in the last ninety days and just over two hundred thousand shows that had produced a new episode in. In the last year. So the numbers haven't changed that much from a year ago, a little higher on number of shows have created new episode in the last ninety days. So even though we've got all these new podcast rolling in the rolling average still continues to be around one hundred thirty thousand shows that are actively creating a podcast at least once within a ninety day. Window roads still only one hundred thirty thousand. Wow. Yeah. You know it's up a little bit. I think last year we were at one twenty nine and I think the numbers we looked at again for April was one thirty one. And a little higher belong. I think I two oh nine or something on the producing episode in the last year. Well, that's in some ways. It's fairly shocking numbers when you think about it. Considering that the total catalog is well, over seven hundred thousand now so which means that there's a lot of shows that are just. Pod. Fading. I mean is the is the term for it, and that the pool of. Competitive shows right shows that you as a podcast or competing against that, that list of shows is not as big as I think, a lot of people for many years thought there was in the space now. Not at all. Yeah. So, you know, it's still possible to build a show and be successful. I think given these numbers because that's a global number Todd. That's right. And say global number. Yeah. Yeah, those just not in the just in the US, so, and I you know, we did some looking around it, obviously some of the other players that have been known for creating away, sleigh and dead shows. And those numbers are astronaut Michael, we have networks out there that eighty thousand dead shows, you know, it's, it's, it's really to that point. It's, it's quite shocking that there are, you know, an and we also looking at longevity, I can I can go in and look at company acts, I can look at it on this is depowered. Having a directory is definitely can look at, you know, or I what's the average life span of a show and show lifespans are growing. That's a good thing. So that will you know that number of one hundred thirty one thousand should start to inch up. Based upon the data that we're seeing on longevity of shows, but, but still that hurdle, those initial hurdles of getting out of the gate Nyan starting and getting to some benchmarks is, is a challenge. So if you've made it to twenty or twenty five episodes, you are in the minority. And congratulations. Yeah. I mean it's, it's, it's not easy, creating podcast content. I, I don't think in a in a general sense of me. If you're trying to take it to the next level, and, and that's I mean, like what we do with this show here. It's you know, we just pull up our microphones most shows, you know, do this whole production, they, they have an outlined. They've, you know, especially some of the scripted programs out there. I mean, you know, stereos producers don't grow on breeze on that now. That's the thing. And that's what we're learning more and more. Now is, is we thought this medium was a lot bigger than than it really is from a content side. But what we're finding is, is that, it's, it's actually not that big at all. And so the, the quality shows that are building audience are kind of rare. So, you know, those are things that we all have to, you know, do the right thing for and keep keep building on because. That's really the future if we want to build a. You know, multi-billion dollar advertising marketplace for advertisers in this medium. If that's the goal of a lot of companies. Guess what? Todd, we've got some work to do. We've got now. There's content that needs to be quality content that needs to be produced. It's not coming on the scene. Very fast. I went through and did data poll and was looking at breaking out of shows and sizes. And I'm very pleased with the number of shows that are at the well, let's, let's look at it from a numbing talk about the, the methodology here. So if I'm looking at what I did is, I looked at new episodes per month. Average downloads per episode for new episodes released in a given month. So let's say this show were are. Let's say geek news central I do eight episodes a month. And I have just, you know, let's use the number thousand listers that listen to king central every episode. So if as a thousand ten thousand fifty, you know, so now the word simple. Simple, math to come up with an average number of downloads. If I look at the breakout then of shows that are one hundred thousand listeners per episode and above up to a million on. That's a relatively small number very small. It's, you know, it's in, you know, it's in the dozens, then if you look at the shows that are fifty thousand two a hundred thousand listeners will that number is in, you know, might close to break a thou-. Thousand and might make a thousand shows that break that threshold. And then if you look at shows to their ten to fifty thousand while the number goes dramatically up dramatically, and to me, as I'm looking at those segments the number of shows that have a hundred listeners two thousand listeners is decreasing where the listeners as I look month the month the number of at least on our network in the shows that we measure, if you look at the shows they have five to ten and ten to fifty those numbers are getting much, much better. So I'm seeing significant growth of, you know, we're seeing growth in N show. Listener numbers and shows are having a lot easier time now getting two thousand listeners than they were before. Now granted the hundred to a thousand listeners is still a pretty big number. All right thing for looking at the, the shows that, you know, were proximity measuring about seventy five thousand shows. No, no, no. We're not measure seventy five thousand shells, remeasure about fifty five thousand shows excuse me. So if we look at that number were still five to ten thousand shows that are hundred two thousand listeners, but the number shows, but that used the number used to be much much bigger and it's decreasing. So I think we're making headway but it's not as incrementally fast as people want. But it's also you know what would be great as I had time to do the whole study, and go in and look at each of those segments of, of shows and do analysis on each of their websites to say, okay, what are you doing on your website? What are you? You know, how, you know how are you promoting your show? How many of you don't care how it's just someone? That's a friend getting together just having fun. And the goal isn't to build. Audience, the goal is to have just a conversation with someone 'cause they're shows out there like that. So. I know that we did some studies early on where we looked at, you know. You know, subscribe on Android, and how they were making increases and we saw definite audience increases when people are using that, but I haven't done that in a while either. So I think we're making headway but it's not as fast as it should be wrote. It does kind of point to a real need out there. I guess to, to focus on the fundamentals and focus on, you know. Creating better content. I guess, you know, and I guess the big thing is that, you know, the takeaway for me is that just doesn't happen. At large scale at this point. I mean, we're, we're chipping away at this. You know, you look at the desire of this industry to grow rapidly in all of the capital investment, that's coming into this space, and, and it's really all keyed off of call quality, content and building audience. And, and it's really exciting to see what's going on with Google. I think they're, they're they appear to be making steady chips away at improving the Google podcast platform, but that whole Android audience Todd, like we've been saying, for years is, is keyed. All this. But the question remains also, you know, do we have the content to keep that? That audience development growing even over on Android, because you think of Android is a little different consumer than I o s maybe they're they're content. Desires aren't exactly the same as what's been the case, you know, with building such a large listener base on. Maybe it's, it's different types of content that's going to build it over on Android. And I'm not sure you know, I haven't heard anybody talking about that too much. I know I think Tom Webster made some comments about we need more quality crap content as a comment on this, same topic, and I don't know what do you think about that aspect of it is? I mean do we need to stretch our imagination around? What kind of content comes into this medium? I, I don't you know, I look at I don't really differentiate an Android Lister Nyos listers different. The. Okay. Let's use. Well, let's let's, let's segment ties that could be from a demographic. If it's. Yeah. Well, if you look at the US market. Okay. Well, maybe I haven't seen the right data. Are you you made an implication there? Rob. So are you saying that the Android? So are you saying that Android users on a social economic are not? What was your location? There have to be careful here. I'm just posing the question. I'm not just like you know, there's a different orientation in reasoning for why I s is in the position that it's in versus Android. I mean I mean you look at Android from a global perspective, and obviously, Android his foreign away the, the dominance operating system on the mobile side. And that's where we're seeing all of the growth in consumption podcast. You know, and, and I, I believe that those devices tend to get adopted by a slightly different demographic group. All you wouldn't see the the huge difference in in the adoption. Right. I think Android devices tend to be lower cost of ICES. They tend to be. Devices, that are, are appealing more to the masses. Right. So you look at an I o s user who tends to have a, you know, a fairly, I think, fairly definable, maybe high income, high high education, typically tech savvy, you look at the overall numbers of Android users in. I think it's more mainstream. I think it, it, it covers more demographic segments. Then users, I think I o s users tend to be be. A little narrower and their demographic, I think if we look at the US market, I would say that probably is not necessarily the case. But if you look at the if you look at the global market global market, I would agree, but at the same time if we look at the split between who's listening to podcasts if we look at the global audience podcast if you break down Brazil, and, you know, heavy heavy heavy Android adoption in Brazil, and heavy Android listenership in Brazil, because the Brazilian contents being you know, people are speaking Portuguese making content for their local countrymen. So of course you would expect Android adoption in Brazil, and enlist or ship to be huge. And it is, is. But here in the United States. I don't think that demographically between is among forms is much out. There is going to be what did I buy my kids androids? Right. Right. When they were first getting phones, because they were cheaper, of course. And we know that there's definitely a demographic group that can't afford an iphone in, we'll buy an Android, cheaper Android phone. But I don't think from I think that I don't think they're listening needs are different. Yeah, they can't afford a better foam. But I just don't. Yeah. But it's that, that group. Right. Typically listening more to radio that than they are online content. That's, that's another question to that would be, you know, kind of an interesting thing to, to analyze as well. I know that that's maybe a project for Tom Webster, but, you know is, is that we're, we're going to see over over the next three to five years? We're going to see more people transition over to the on-demand, medium podcasting away from radio, as that as we see Google in dots podcasting in a stronger way. And it becomes more of a first party experience. And if I look at diversity of content today. He look at podcast movement from last year. Pretty diverse group of people in the content diversity is I think, is there. I think we have good content diversity. So I don't know if there's a lacking of, of, of topical content. For different geo demographic, folks, too. So why do think that we're, we're, we're a little weak on the language diversity in the medium right now? But maybe that's maybe that's just going to play to, you know, a fairly narrow niche. Because if you look at what, what the consumption patterns are outside of the US. Excuse me, for for content is a lot of podcasts. Content is consumed outside of the US in English, and it's been fairly slow in the creation and. The growth of listenership in local language podcast. Content has been relatively slow because you think about the scale of English content going into every country in the world. Versus maybe Spanish-language contact coming out of Spain or something like that. The typically only gets consumed in Spain. Just a much more limited audience reach potential of, of more local language, content coming out of these countries, they, you're not going to get a lot of listeners in the US to Spanish language content, though, you're going to get, you know, a growing number because the population here Spanish speakers in the US is growing, so, you know, over time, maybe some of these barriers to content growth in other languages are going to kind of decline. And also I look at culturally, you know specifically Japanese, they're not one's really to right. Stick their neck out, and make Gavin a big opinion based show because they're much more than audited foot without. Mariah. Right. So each country's just a little bit differently culturally. And also, let's be Frank. There's some countries that economically not a lot of people can even today, even as the low cost of doing podcasts can afford to do can't afford to do a show, just socially or economically impossible. So there's that as well. And also, I think. You know, adoption rate of podcasting in some of those countries, there's, there's obviously, some, some opportunities there, you know, feel look at Asia I think there's huge opportunities throughout Asia. And think they're still huge opportunities in Europe. I think there's huge opportunities in Russia. I think, you know, I think there's a some serious potential for growth and places. But also feel look at countries that have regimes that are. Were speech is not. Completely free like China. Yeah. Y y in China does so many educational podcast. Why are they so popular because educational shows are now politics safe? Yeah. You can't go get locked up and sent to the reform farm by doing education long as you stay away from politics in probably the same in Russia and some other countries as well. In people do content there than they have to do it on the down low and master voice or you know, it's almost like underground radio. They have this, you know, there's life and death consequences for, you know, can you imagine being in Venezuela and having a political show that's against the, the regime down there? You know that kinda come pull you out of your house, and you end up face down in a ditch somewhere. You know, so. Who taught different rules? Applies. I, I watched a documentary last night called the corporate dot. FM. I don't know if you saw that compatriot was a yeah. To our. Talking about corporate radio. A little dated, but it was good from two thousand fifteen. Yeah. Yeah. Corporate data FM, and there's some parallels there that I think Dave Jackson turned us onto that. So, yeah, I makes you go just a little bit doesn't. It will does in and it does kind of Roe some questions for the podcasting boost to is, is are, you know, what are the implications of that? Right. As you look at the podcasting medium. It does feel like the puck guessing meeting was a little bit of a reaction to that. And I think I'd mentioned that earlier in the show. But but what does that mean for radio? I mean does does radio have in a opportunity in the future? If they do go back to their, their more community routes, right? I'm not going to they can't afford to great. Well. It feels like that. If there's a need for it, somebody will fill it, right? And I think that's kind of what the, the low power FM's were trying to do. But I don't know that they're, they're getting any traction though, that's the thing, and I it's also a societal thing to our people nowadays think more national than they do a national global. I, I don't know if you think about local communities, how much people really focus on what's going on in their local communities, and that's been radio strong suit, you know, in his podcasting as we grow in audience, are we going to become stronger, and stronger, a local medium, and that ultimately mostly replaces radio? I think there's a huge opportunity, but I, I got to thinking a little bit in those that haven't watched this. It's on Netflix. Again, it's corporate dot FM is the name of the of the program, or the, the video, and the crux of it is, is that when now I heart, which was clear channel before came in and swoop all these stations up for billions of dollars which they've now restructured in their bankruptcy. They basically gutted radio stations across the country and whereas radio station would've had a local news director would have had reporters on the on the ground all the stuff that happened locally that largely disappeared, and you may in, if, if clear channel owned eight stations in a in a market, they may have had only one that actually had staff in it that actually. Had people that were talking to people in the community and doing community type of metrics, everything else was on auto play, you know, basically at five o'clock on a Friday all the way through Monday, there was no one there. And there was a fire in the town. There would be no one to report on a fire or whatever would happen. Everything was largely automated and then centralized through regions and eliminated thousands of jobs in the radio business. So it took, you know, did local DJ may be have preprogrammed to show for the day. And he's, he's done that it's not doing it live. Easies, Don a couple of hours worth of work to do a whole day's worth of programming. But it was really, it's really kind of an eye opener of how it's changing what's Rob's referring to is that. The interviews with the coach interviews with a local band. The interviews with the some civic stuff going on in public service announcements don't happen anymore, right? You know, the whole community media is definitely on the on the the decline right now. And does podcasting have a role to play in that future? I guess it only has a role to play if people in communities want community media because the trend lines are showing that they, they don't want it. I how do you, I'll give you a good analogy here. Robin this take you back to my military days. So when I was. What I I got the navy. I was flying out of a squadron called BQ one and biz EP three. They also had a three aircraft and the a-3 served a certain purpose off the carrier deck, and in BBC the redoing reconnaissance, and protection of the ship from afar, and that aircraft got to a point where it was no longer viable they had to retire the aircraft, and there was a gap of about three to four years before the replacement aircraft got back on the on the carrier deck. But because that aircraft had been gone for three been gone for three to four years, the, the task groups got used to operating without that aircraft and what it would end up happening was is they, they said, well, we live without you already. For a, a number of years, we really don't need you anymore, but I've got a tanker need, and you can fill the tanker need, we're gonna make you a tanker, even though we've got this, multimillion dollar reconnaissance aircraft. We're going to put you on tank duty. You're gonna take the aircraft that are the need gas and very very quickly. That squadron was dissolved because there had been a long enough gap, that there was no longer a need, and what it really was as those of us that were actively still working in that space. We said oh my God. What are you doing? This is, you know, the, the protection you're giving up and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and yet they had learned live without it. So what we've done in radio. There's been long enough gap or five six years here. The local communities have learned to live without that information and out of sight out of mine. How do you recover that maybe you'd never will? I mean, that's kind of what it seems like to me. I know there's been conversations in the podcast medium for a long time about local. Podcasting. I ever since that it's never really gotten that much traction. Because people are so focused on what's national. I think that the, the National Public Radio folks are kind of in a in that similar type of position. Right. When they kind of struggle between their local affiliates, and their national shows that they do for NPR. They've been wrestling with local versus national for years now. And you know from what I gathered their local affiliate station seem to be holding on. But, you know, it's always that tug of war between, you know. What's, you know, do do we do we embrace this American life as a podcast or do we brace embrace this American life? As a as a radio show that airs in the local market net. Granted, you know, that's an example of a nationally syndicated. Show. Right. The kind of lives in hundreds of radio stations at the same time that it's a podcast, but there's other chips that exist in local radio markets that are put out as podcasts. And oftentimes those local shows don't get very much traction as podcasts. So you got the inverse going on there, too, and it's all about scale of awareness, and as the, the audience, I think, Todd, I mean, I think, as we see numbers of people listening to podcasts grow in any given local market, that becomes a little more viable to build audience in a local market and target the that local market. But, you know, I don't I don't know. I mean is, is radio going to still take a big chunk of the listening audience for decades to come are, you know, I think that there's a lot of questions about what's going to happen to that radio frequency and, and. As you look to the long-term future. Is it a generational shift? I know tied you've been saying on this show for years, that your kids, don't listen to radio. What does that bode for the future of radio? I think radio screwed in the long run, they've got a you know, they're not going anywhere anytime soon. But if radio has stopped being the turn to when there's an accident or if there is a course now we've got weights the other day. Well, you know, I was using ways to get around. Traffic incident wasn't using the radio per se or what happens when you, you know, radio used to be the place. You tuned to get what's happening locally. So as now as an app for that, if I want to know what bands are playing do, I listen to the radio to find out what bands are playing though there's probably a point after that. But maybe were culturally and in, in this corporate dot FM should make all this a little bit leery in that radio may have radio may be causing. Less progression in music less progression in ideas than thought because now let's nationalized. It's all nationalized and you've got a thirty song play track. And that's it. So there's no exposure to new artists. There's no exposure to new ideas. So as podcasters I hope I hope we can fill the gap, but to do local rob, you're going to need dedicated you're gonna have to podcasters. They're going to have to team up. And that's the only way it's going to be possible individual podcast or cannot do this on their own. They're going to have to find four or five people that they want to work with in focus on local content. It's gonna be it's gonna be a tough row. It's gonna be a tough. It's gonna be hard. But I think there's potential. But you've seen some people do local successful. I think some of done done fairly well, I mean, I think if you keep your expenses, low, and, and really dig into the community and get involved in the community, I think some of these podcasts that I've, I've heard about and have spoken to the creators of have found a place for themselves. But I don't know that it's financially viable thing to do. I it gets, like a lot of podcasting. It's still kind of a passion project. And I think some of these folks have vision for what it could be in. They're willing to work to, to make it happen. But like you say taught, I mean, you know, the, the trend lines don't look good at this point. And, you know, I've got to think about after watching that rob and it's ironic that we both did is that the. What have I been telling radio stations for the past four, five years? Take your local interviews with coaches bans, and I don't listen to radio. So I don't know. I didn't know that they weren't doing much of that anymore. Most radio stations don't have the local coach and don't have local band in. Don't talk about the you know, they don't have that civic. So, so I was telling radio to do what I thought radio what was and it turns out because of consolidation most of that has disappeared. It's I'm thinking to myself, I was giving those folks. Advice on something that may not exist largely anymore. Now there are still I sure everyone has a local station has a local jock that does local stuff. But the number of those choices, I think, have dropped I don't know here in Hawaii, maybe because we're isolated I, we still have some stations that do that. I can off the top of my head. I know three that are morning drives that have live local morning dry folks that do what I'm referring to. What about Seattle rod? Yeah, there's, there's still a, you know, a, a group of, of radio stations that are still catering to the local market. You know, they're doing news talk, whether the that goes on here, and it's, it's supporting the community, I think, to certain degree AM stations is really kind of fallen off of the, the, the wagon. People are mainly listening to FM now and I think it's not surprising that, that a lot of the talk stations have moved over to FM. So, you know, just the audio quality is, is a big reason right there. And but music is still pretty dominant in the radio markets here, the talk format the tends to skew as we're seeing nationally. It's, it's pretty conservative talk, which you, you don't see conservative talk being really strong in the podcasting sector to which is an interesting trend line two. And that's that's a little bit of a. A drive towards the demographics. As well, as you know, why you see you radio tends to cater to older older more mature people of the population, and that, that's what I guess, has me concerned about about the future is 'cause I if younger people aren't coming in and adopting radio. And if radio doesn't. Become a little bit more like podcasting and how they look at content and how they look at how they're presenting themselves. Then radios going to have a struggle in the future. I think and I might be wrong on this whole local thing. And I guess, when I get back in the mainland, I'll start listen to little more radio to see if I can get a feel you know, is there this morning guy and it's talking local community events. You know, is that still a piece, or is it in my listing on FM and listening to some nationally, syndicated morning show? I guess that will be a teller for me. I'm gonna have to flip through some frequencies, because I don't listen to radios, listen that much either. So, so we might be wrong on our analogy here that they're not doing a lot of local, but I don't think they're doing as much as used to. I think it's been a cost cutting that's happened around staffing and just like what we saw with that, that documentary. I mean, that's, that's what's been going on at these stations. It's, it's a blend of local and national content. I mean, some of the, the radio shows that are produced in the large markets are then syndicated to other markets. All right. So there's always been a couple of shows on a couple of the big radio stations in Seattle that had been syndicated nationally, but they've been produced right in Seattle. So you, you kind of have that dynamic going onto, and then off the time. So shows become podcasts and. But they're the vast majority of their listening audience comes from the, the, the radio side of things. So, you know, I think the radio still has a place in these markets. And I just wonder about the future though. I mean that's, that's my concern at this point. I think the handwriting's on the wall that feature but they're not still multibillion dollar market. So, you know, they're not going anywhere anytime soon. And but, you know why is I heart pushing everyone to the app, you know, I've heard you know that I dare peeler telling me that iheart is like advertising podcast like crazy right now. I keep getting emails from folks saying, wow, I heard it iheart, five iheart commercials today and they are all promoting podcasts. So I guess that's good for the podcasting space that they're promoting podcast. But are they are they hedging here and thinking that, that the heartbeat? They're, they're on a time line of destruction, and they need to move digital. That's, that's the that would be takeaway. That would be pretty. Obvious right from that they're seeing the handwriting on the wall as well. Like like the rest of us are, or are they just smelling money and trying to get as many people to stop listing on Pandora and Spotify and want him to come over and listen to an iheart? I think some motivation for that, too. You know, I was talking with. A group out of New York, and I kept telling them is where we were talking about the space and about advertising in this guy done a lot of work in radio. And I said did please please by says you have to remember that ninety ninety five percent of podcasts that are being maybe even higher than that? Maybe ninety eight percent a podcast doing being done today when you talking to the general manager. You're also talking to the advertising director, you're talking to the program director, and you're talking to the talent at the same time. I said, don't forget that about pod guessing, and that's what's different between podcasting in radio year, you don't have in the majority of these cases, someone that is, you know, there is a department. It's a department of one and the guy or gal is on there. Like, I'm on my living room couch, this morning someone could be in the kitchen that can be spare bedroom. And boy. Title is some of these folks have a very hard time still wrapping their head around the concept that one podcast or one individual can reach audiences big as they do not have any staff. Though is possible, but I do think that there's more and more teams being created out there. I keep working with podcasters that are that are building teams around their shows because they realized that they can do it all. So the they'll have also Cup producer. That's, that's part time on their on their program to try and help fill in. So I still I still think that's the minority that if people are if people are doing that. That's great bootstrapping a show and trying to build it up and get it the point where it can be monetize in, you know, all those parties win from that at did have one thing that I weren't near the end here. And if anyone has. Any insights to this. I'd like to know charter will hit announce their smart links and I've asked a publicly a couple of times if smart links was GDP are compliant. I haven't got any responses from them. So if chargeable if you're listening I love to know if you're smart lynxes, Chidi, PR compliant and a little bit in the how you did that because I'm concerned that smart links is not GDP are compliant. So, and I might be completely wrong. I just I'd like to know one way or the other. Anything? Did you have anything else that you'd saw came out on the news that you're curious about rob? I saw the there's more kind of podcast awards. The were down. In Britain, and what that done Australia. Yeah. Yeah. They had night in the night, look like real, nice backed events. So, yeah, a lot lots of podcasts words, a matter of fact, the my pod. Yes, worser original podcast awards, the first podcast awards. The people's choice podcasts words nominations opened on July first. So if you're not registered, you've got about a month and we're listening looking for podcasters to help sponsor the event, too. So. Run a little behind this year on sponsorship. So maybe too many competing award shows. I I'm beginning to wonder. Right. I mean, maybe you're showed their, you're your awards needs to be turned into the American podcast awards or something like that. I don't know. Australian and yeah. We've always been global so but it's been almost but we've it's, it's largely been US century now. We did remove mature category and replaced it with storytelling. And what did I say? Yeah. It's, it's basically a storytelling category. So, so that there was a change. I think storytelling in one other, it's storytelling in something else. So when people's register they will they will see that. But. Soon as they get that incorporate like true, the true crime Chandra. Yeah. They went Biko. Yeah. Anything it's anything that's a storytelling whatsoever. So let me if I can. I should know what this is because they changed it myself and being stupid here. Okay. We as a reminder, we added storytelling and drama as a category, this year in remove mature. So it's storytelling, and dramas. The is the new category this year. Todd. Did you see the, the news that came out a little bit about Spotify? I guess they're, they're testing was called the I guess, a voice controlled music, and podcasts device called car thing. This. I did Spotify is really reaching here. Aren't they? Right. Car thing is. But. We'll see on that. And just this past week, it launched a new script algae BT Q series, which is cool. And any of the LGBTQ has always been. It's not a new thing. Matter of fact, some there was a huge in there still is. There was a huge category of LGBTQ plus from the very beginning podcasting. A even in the two thousand five timeframe, there was a bunch of shows, and I think the reason there was is because they did not have a voice. There was no way that, you know, they're, they're have very hard time getting their message out would not be covered by local radio. No one was covering LGBTQ, maybe except for areas like San Francisco, or, you know, we're there was specific communities of LGBTQ, but there, you know, that's always been a big category in podcasting. So matter of fact, on the podcasts words, we have a separate category for LGBTQ. And always have. And I think that, that's another thing is people need to realize that what podcasting. Allowed in its formation was those that didn't have a voice those that had no way to reach masses and were, I'll, let's be honest, shunned or discriminated against or whatever would we wanna use? There was no. They were really were blocked. They are excluded. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And gave him the ability to say what they wanted in say what they needed and get messaging out in education. And so, I think that's another you know. Thanks. We light little things like this. We forget about the core of why podcasting became as popular as it did. Though. I think we need to keep talking about Todd. So we keep people remembering what the roots of this medium really are because as we move more towards chasing the almighty dollar and, and, you know, big corporations get involved in this, this medium, we can easily kind lose sight of what the mediums what the culture, this medium is about. And, and I think that that's, that's something that, you know, I think can be embraced. And still have, you know, good sized businesses that are that are supporting people and paying employees and, and paying shareholders and things that I think we can have both. It's just the temptation to go too far down one side or the other is, is pretty great. I mean just case in point look a radio. So, so I think that's like what we need to be conscious of, maybe what we want to kind of a void. Well, I you know, rob, let's be Frank, you know, as more money comes in and pressures about that money. And how it's represented we go right back into the same situation or could go back in the same situation where biases and exclusion start to happen. And so, you know, we're in, I think we're at a point now where fringe opinions well, you know, we could go extreme right? We go stream left. We can go, there's whole John row of topics that corporate America's very scared of and when corporate dollars start coming in those, those. Of those thoughts, transcend into content restrictions. And this is not what podcasting is about right. Say what you will. But there is huge biases still throughout the corporate world, right? There's a genders, right? There's people have business agendas. They, they wanna make money. And, and that's, that's all part of a capitalistic system that we have here, and, and, but somehow we have to balance it, right with, with the roots of this medium of being a very community Centric, and what I fear sometimes is that the movements in the industry are. Now are moving maybe a little bit away from that. And, and I think, you know, you would meet Todd and, and others just need to keep keep pushing that, that, that community aspect, and hopefully, we can hang onto it for as long as, you know, we're involved anyway, to keep keep pushing that because there will come a time you and I are won't be part of this medium, and those going to be, there's going to be a need for new leaders to take over and help lead this, this medium into the future. And if those new leaders don't have the same values that came out of the formation of this, this medium that could be lost. I think it should just be required. Absolutely quired that anyone that's involved in podcasting. In corporate level should be forced to do a podcast and not necessarily a podcast about podcasting. I think that they just don't understand the well, any and everything we've said here, rob is that we were born out of the podcasting space was aboard out of ability to stick it to the Mayon and, and not have constraints and controls. And as long as someone of that still exists where we know that the medium can't be controlled. I think we're going to be okay. But I, I again, I think I agree with you. We just have to continue to, to be beating the drum at this is this is why the space was so popular in why it exploded the way it did. Because. He gave voice to people that well, and we've talked about in many, many times in the show with, like no one could control how the media is distributed. And now everyone wants it and into a certain extent. They are controlling it but at least at the raw level, he can still take a any almost any pod catcher. That's available up there and subscribe to a raw RSS feed and get access to content that may be not listed on a directory to. Well, we're not I think we're long. On the full duration today. That's good. So let's we'll plan on. I'm available next week. How about you? I'm actually going to be pod IX in feel so yeah, I'm probably not going to be available on, on Saturday. All right. Well, then probably the next show will be from. What I'll be on the east coast time zone, so. I'm making that transition. I fly out of here late afternoon on Saturday, June first and will be, then I'll be in Michigan largely and then splitting time between there in Columbus. And then I'll be back in why every six to eight weeks though. That's my current current plan has a family still here. Sure. So the so what are you expecting to get your, your studio kind of reset up again? What's well. The studio itself is probably a more than a month out. But maybe, maybe I have some sort of makeshift video stuff possible in a couple of weeks. We'll see. We'll see it's, it's going to be really raw to be a blank canvas. I think there might be an empty room with some cameras in it. But who knows. We'll I'll see what I can see what I can jury rig up. Okay. All right. We'll your so's your container on the boat heading over the, the, the, the pond, yet or ya'll the containers in the driveway. They pick it up onto a section on the side of the street. They pick it up on Tuesday, and it goes on the boat on Friday, a be in LA ten days later, and then they're saying twenty one day transit time so they take it off the the boat. Put it on rail, Senate to Detroit. Then once it gets Detroit day truck it to me door to door service. So I've put a couple of pictures on Facebook. I'll actually post the final picture, what it looks like filled up. It's not really totally filled about five feet, high of stuff twenty feet wide are eight eight by eight by twenty with at about five feet tall. So, like I got more near and I thought I would so anyway. I'm Todd at blueberry dot com. I'm rob at rob Greenlee dot com. The so you can send me an Email there, if you want to. And this is my only podcast now Todd. I'm not doing any others. The whole. Wow for now. Well, we'll see. Right. It's, it's still a little early for me to make that determination. But see, speaker life show ended. You know a little week ago. So. And the final episode is air if you wanna go, he'll listen to that. It was it was an interesting episode. I thought my own personal thought anyway, I look back at the past of the speaker, life show and played some clips from past past shows, the kind of give a given example of the journey that I went through with that program. So but anyway, that's sorry guy make cameo appearances on the feed. Yeah. Probably next week. You're going to hear me on the feet. Yeah. Lovely spreading propaganda. Right. It, you know, the fi the feed it was, I think, rob slow dig it me the way he named that show. So just remember only at blueberry, can you control your own podcast feed in own it. So I just leave it at that. All right. Todd fair enough or everyone, thanks so much for being here, and we'll take care of the probably two weeks from now ever news. All right. Good. Bye bye. Ever.

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