Making A Murderer Exposed
The chair co network on Westwood One. Tall tall recall? Ribaud? All right. Welcome to talk. Jared. It's the pot of thunder and rock and roll. And I am back from Japan amazing experience still dome. Russell keenum thirteen would a war. I had promised. It would be different matched that you should go out of your way to check out as well as Tana Ohashi versus Kenya. Mega two great matches. If you don't mind if I don't mind myself saying to finish other till you don't show, and it's just a a great experience a love the dome. I love Tokyo, I love Japan. I love new Japan. So I look forward to work in there. More in the future. Nothing booked as of right now. But hopefully, we will have some good times a-coming so great to hear amazing feedback from the Tokyo dome and great pictures up on Instagram becomes we'll check them out of Chris Jericho Fosse. And we got lost to talk about today. Something I've been really interested in making a murderer which is Netflix series. If you haven't seen it, you might understand what's going on this this show. If you have seen it, you know, just all the chicanery and the strange situation surrounding Steven Avery and Brennan Daffy were they framed seems like they were did they really murder Theresa hallback. I mean, many believe there wrongfully convicted and set up by corrupt sheriff's department amount of want county Wisconsin season one was years ago season to just released and the series continues by detail in the ongoing fight to get them both released from jail and their convictions overturned in the fight being spearheaded by Chicago, Turney, Catholic Zeller and today, I've got author and journalist John Ferrick here on the show a John was part of USA. Today's Wisconsin investigative team in two thousand sixteen and seventeen and we'll many in-depth articles about the Steven Avery brand acid case, Kathleen Zellner is also giving them exclusive access to a lot of information and investigations that she and her team have uncovered and done on behalf of Avery. So John took his years of coverage of the case book called wrecking crew demolishing the case against Steven Avery, which focuses on Zeller's quest. To get Avery conviction overturned and get him a released from jail ho for Brandon Desi as well. Book came out just before Christmas and joslin the show today to talk with the incredible case and why he's so certain Steven Avery and Brennan DASS you're both innocent of Theresa Halbwax murder and should be freed from prison. He also lays everything's Zellner and her law from have been doing and John shares of alternate theory of Theresa's murder, which Zellner teamer pursuing and names a couple of other suspects that maybe the real killers talking all the planet evidence all the coincidences and cliches Doohan the case, and he's also going to update what's been happening with the case since filming ended on the second season making a murderer net flicks. So here we go talking all Steven Avery Brennan dash, Kathleen Zellner. It's John Ferrick. You're making a murderer exposed right here on talk is Jericho. So. Making a murderer season to just finished watching it. It's sweeping the nation. Just like making a murderer one did. And I have John Ferrick with me here who wrote a great new book called wrecking crew. Which is basically the whole story all the way up to to where we are right now. John first of all like, you said this book that he wrote is basically geared for people who have seen the show and familiar with the show. And I believe what did you say? It was about forty million people have watched the series since the debut. I was to say I've heard numbers around that that range, Chris I mean when you consider the first original making a murder with just such an unbelievable hit took the world by by surprise. And then you've had so many people that that are newbies to that. That whatever reason didn't see the original Maki murder when it came out or they were in college or high school, or whatever, you know, are, you know, grown up now. But but there's so many people that have latched onto. The the second series, which which I really thought was you know, really well done and does a great job of going in a completely different direction than than the first series, which I thought was begging making emphasis to begin with. Yeah. And I know you've written books on on subjects of this matter in the past and you wrongful convention convictions and true crime, and that sort of thing what was it about making a murder that that drew you to want to write a wrecking crew book all about it that was that was a little interesting to from the standpoint that by that point in my life. I was actually back in Wisconsin. I worked there two different times in my life. I at that point in time, I was working for Gannett in the USA today network. So I was an investigative journalist up in Wisconsin at the time that make it murder came out. And we were all kind of surprised to stunt at at the worldwide claim that this was getting just within a matter of days. Of coming out. And I was fortunate that I had a really good editor at that point in time that there was around when the original trial happened for Steve Avery, and Brandon Daffy, Chris, and and he basically gave me the thumbs up as reporter to go out and do as many investigative pieces for US today network as I could. So I over the last year year half in two thousand sixteen two thousand seventeen I wrote a ton of in-depth articles just really looking at the man to sheriff's office looking at the prosecutor in the case just looking at different pieces of evidence in the whole fairness concept of criminal Justice for Brendon and Steve Avery, and so just from working on so many of those stories I realized that some point in time it would be worthwhile to do a book. But I wanted to do a book that was different than those two or three that came out immediately after make you a murderer in a couple of them were written by prosecutors that were involved in the case. So I wanted to put together at some point in time when I put the. Book. I wanted to be different. I wanted to be from a standpoint of, you know, looking at the criminal Justice system and backtrack county. You know, really with a, you know, a tough, I really a tough tough look at this case because there's so many aspects of the cases you probably know to Chris that just smell, right? You know and just don't seem fair, regardless of guilt or innocence in the case. Let's just give a quick background for people that might not have seen it just kind of taking up this enough. I mean, tell tell the basic criminals version of Steve Avery story. Sure. The Steve Avery who was born in Mantova county are not foreign on junk, Jerry, but he was born into a family that that owned a massive junkyard about forty acres of land. That has thousands of wreck in abandoned vehicles out there, and and when Steve was in his early twenties. He was as I. Toll people, you know, he was kind of a rascal. He got involved in, you know, petty crime, and you know, just goofy stuff from hanging around the wrong crowd of people stuff like that. But but nothing of any serious, violent nature is far as that goes. But but anyway, in his early twenty s there was a young woman. That was a businesswoman match wack that would for Jag along Lake Michigan. And she was violently attacked beaten nearly killed raped along the shoreline and within a matter of hours, the the sheriff of the county took it upon himself to put himself in charge of the investigation, basically, railroaded Steve Avery and decided that, you know, this was a high profile case, the family, you know, was begging the police to to solve it. And just within a matter of hours. He decided that Steve Avery was going to be guilty of this crime. So long short Steve Avery gets arrested. He he goes to prison, and he sits in prison for eighteen years for crime that he didn't. Commit and meanwhile, the real rapist a serial predator named Gregory Allen was able to get away with the crime in the guy goes on to commit other rapes in eventually is in prison at the time that it's learning that Steve Avery was innocent of this crime. So it was a big deal in Wisconsin. When Steve Avery was led out of prison in two thousand three he's moving forward than after that. He gets really good lawyers of Milwaukee, he files a lawsuit against the sheriff's office from his conduct and and it's a thirty six hour lawsuit. And it's got a real good chance of either succeeding or ending up with a really nice settlement stuff like that. Dollars. Right. Yeah. Exactly. So yeah. And like I said at that point in time, it's two thousand five or two years into this case since Steve Avery has been out of prison and. The tree Sahal Bica photographer that worked for for auto trader magazine, she disappears. And and Steve Avery becomes the immediate prime suspect of the Bantu county sheriff's office, and and within a matter of days, so he gets arrested in charged with her murder. This is so many things to talk about here. Because if you watch the series and read the book, it seems, you know, Steven Avery with the worst luck ever. And if you're going by what the series says, and this is what I want to talk to you as well. But the two sides of the coin he was put in jail free teen years unjustly for for for the rape of the lady the candy store lady on the resort line of the lake because they wanted to get a quick conviction. They didn't listen to the evidence. They just put Steven Avery away. Because you said he was coming of the local near do. Well, rascal then as soon as it gets out. He's about to get a thirty. Six million dollars settlement from the state and the insurance companies refused to ensure the state on this claim so right when he's about to get this gigantic statement subtly Theresa hallback goes Missy and they pin it on Steven Avery. And it seems like it's just evidence after evidence after evidence for Steven Avery innocence that the state and the county are just sweeping under the carpet almost like they have been deta against Steven Avery for all these different reasons. Right. It's just really seem so just so unfair as far as the standpoint that you had the man toy coming sheriff's office thrust themselves into the case, you know, when when several individuals in that department or the under scrutiny on and had been given testimony. There were really kind of put up put through the ringer as far as with Steve Avery lawsuit. And then rather than bow out or stay away from the case like most good police. Officers in departments would do. It's the apposite in this case. These guys are valid tearing the assignments to to lead the searches on Steve Avery house is trailer. I should say, and and then, you know, they're lying to the press. They're telling the local reporters that the man to county sheriff's office isn't really involved in the case except for getting pieces of heavy equipment, which was complete BS. So so the whole thing really stunk tie have it, and and you had three different agencies involved in this. The stench Chris you had the mantra why county sheriff's office which was responsible for Steve Avery original wrongful conviction. And then you hit the neighboring county which is a similar smaller agency called calmac county and those two departments are kind of joined at the hip Kalua, Matt in Mantova county. So it's important for people to know that. And then you had the state of Wisconsin's agency called the department of Justice. Or their or their DCI, but dump it basically, these are state of Wisconsin special agents that there were also involved in, you know, in overseeing in making decisions as far as with the, you know, the investigation, and you know, collection of evidence and stuff like that. So I in make your murder season to Steve's Stephen still in jail. And also we got with Brennan dasy whose nephew that was implicated on a confession as a sixteen year old with low IQ that he was kind of railroaded into in my opinion. And it's the only evidence against Brennan Daffy in the murder of Theresa Hal back that he gave this confession attained confession, and he's still in jail right now for life. It's been twelve years. And so then Catherine Zellner gets involved to start to take up Steven Avery case. No, explain to Catherine Zellner is. Yeah. So Kathleen Zellner. Yeah. That yeah. She's out of the cog or. Area. And she's. A longtime attorney that's pretty well known or has been well known around the Chicago area for probably wasn't as well known nationally or internationally until season two of making murder. But but she's a lawyer that has decided to start her own over the last twenty or so years to really make her law firm focused on examining wrongful conviction cases, and people that may be sitting into in prison for crime that they didn't commit. So it's a very small law firm or other people are really busy with the, you know, medical malpractice cases, and you know, other things to kinda help, you know, raise money, and, you know, pay for the lights and electricity. But but Zellner is really made it a crusade that she's going to try to help people that are sitting in prison for crimes they didn't commit and get them out and vindicate them. So she she becomes interested in favorites plight really after make you a murderer part one k. Out December two thousand fifteen and she she decided that she was going to take on Steve Avery case is post conviction from that point forward. And she is spent Chris I think hundreds of thousands of dollars of her own money from her law firm to you know, to hire experts to you know, to travel to do legal research, but it's it's all money that that she's ponied up herself. Just because she believes so strongly the Steve Avery is innocent as well as Brenda Daffy. Now, Brandon obviously has a different set of attorneys than he's been represented. Very well, I might add by Lauren I writer and Steve driven out of Chicago at the Northwestern University center for wrongful convictions, and they just sister tremendous job you being in his corner when nobody else really was. And and actually I was at I was at one of the I was at the prison in. Portage Wisconsin at the end of two thousand sixteen we were all there as far as, you know, reporter types because you know, that was the day that Brandon was supposed to get out of prison because federal judge in two thousand sixteen hit at issued. A I think it was eighty eight pagers ADA pages or so, but a very long, you know, long, well, researched legal opinion that hit basically overturned Brendan's conviction on the grounds that his confession was coerced. And you know was inaccurate. And and so while we while we were waiting for Brennan to be released from prison. But what happens is the state of Wisconsin's attorney general guy named brand Schimmel who really hadn't been in office, very long. It's kind of a suit, but but anyway, Schimmel file some ocean and was able to get the Brendan's released from prison state or blocked at that point in time. And then the case gets dragged on and on it. It goes to the quarter of. Peels out of Chicago. And again, there's a ruling and Brenda Desi favor. It's two to one there's one judge that was actually appointed by Obama, which cast priced me. But he was very critical and just it just really went along with the program as far as, you know, thinking this, you know, this case was legitimate against Brennan Daffy. So even though the ruling goes to to one and Brendan's favor, and again, you're thinking now he should be finally let out of prison that didn't happen either. You know, this judge they were able to convince the whole court of appeals out of Chicago to hear the case, which I think is called an end buying hearing, which is very very very very rare mad, and and at that point in time the case, you know, went back before seven justices, and and the ruling eventually goes four to three against Brendan. So even though he won at two separate levels. You know, head two different sets of judges overturned his conviction. You know and think that he'd go free or get a new trial on bet didn't happen. Thanks to the state of Wisconsin. And is just mind boggling that there's just so much bureaucracy. Chris if you think about it as far as why even have all these lower levels of courts, if this thing is just going to get dragged out in the, you know, nobody's going to follow another judge's ruling and stuff like that. It would be like, you know, baseball footballer caressing for that matter like having five sets of referees and stuff like that. At me, nothing. Whatever get done it. Just it just blows me away that this kind of stuff actually happens on a regular basis. I agree one thousand percent in before we continue in talk about some of the key pieces of the evidence that Zellner believes points Stevens innocence, and the alternate theory of the crime and possible suspect I've got a New Year's resolution for you to consider take better care of your teeth man suggesting this one because once you get a quick toothbrush. It's going to be the easiest resolution you've ever been able to make and keep and we all know, there's a huge difference between making resolution and actually sticking with it. Get quip dot com slash Jericho has helped me take better care of my teeth and gums, listen, I love my quip electric toothbrush. Use it on a daily basis and the quick vibrations are gentle on my gums. They going to built in time that goes up every thirty seconds to remind you to switch sides, and that timer helps you clean your whole mouth evenly. And for the full two minutes that most dentists recommend you gotta put in the time. 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That's get quip dot com slash Jericho. Keep those teeth pearly white every day and every night, get quip dot com slash Jericho. Two questions one. Do you believe that that Brendan and Steven Avery innocent without with Brendan? I'm one hundred percent sure that that he's innocent could just because I don't see any scenario again having twenty years experience in the field out covering these kinds of cases, I've never seen a murder happened. The way it was described by the prosecution that they that they core traded as at this was premeditated murder by Steve Avery. You know, that he was, you know, a sexual monster deviant, and was, you know, targeting trains to haul by the likelihood if that if that did happen. You're not going to have a scenario where he's torturing her. You know, we're cutting her up in his bedroom. And and here's a knacker arena does doorbell, you know, in walks down the hallway to see who it is. And then let's the person in, you know, in his nephew that crimes never happened that way. So so so so just from that standpoint alone, the fact that we know we all. I know that there was no physical evidence. No blood. No hair note. DNA no trace evidence found in Steven Avery trailer. And it was such a small trailer in everything at the kind of sophisticated guy. There would have been able to clean that stuff up. Anyway, it never happens. Anyway, by the way. In other cases, where people try to put white out over, you know, over blood spattering, you could still find it. So so I just work off. You know, the fact is there's no evidence that she was harmed inside Steve abors trailer. So I just don't see any scenario with with Brennan Dessie in getting back to Avery at this point in time. Yeah, I don't see any, and I don't see anything that connects, you know, him to the crime because all the other crucial pieces of evidence, you know, a really been smashed, and, you know, blown up by by Zellner in her experts and stuff like that. So what are we left worth, you know, we're left with the possibility that every commit could have committed the crime. But if he did, you know what had happened under completely different circumstances and scenario than what was presented at trial. And then you get into the fact that some of her bones were found out at the Corey property in Imbaba deaths. He's per barrel in my mind, both of those facts in events. Really are to Steve Avery advantage. As far as to show them that, you know, it's really really really unlikely that he's the culprit that somehow, you know, was, you know, was out in the Corey, you know, or out at, you know, his his nephews, you know, yard sixty sixty years away and stuff like that. So I mean, so at this point in time, it looks very strong. You know that Steve Avery was innocent and had nothing to do with the crime as well. I think so then the other question is why has when you watch the show when you read the book does just like you said evidence after evidence that either wasn't submitted. That's just completely ignored. I mean, it's hard to believe that there's a statewide countywide conspiracy against this, man. What is what is your opinion on why this is happening while I mean, I think a lot of it goes back to you know, they have been going back to the eighties. So which was out in the original Maki murderer. Steve Avery wasn't the best, you know, best guy around. And and there was a situation where where he got so mad about some of the false rumors that were being spread around about him. In town. You know, when the incidents twenty said he had that unloaded. And I plan out. Unloaded. But he had unloaded shotgun that he pointed at one of the sheriff's deputies. So why you know and was just really angry at her, you know, back in the eighties for for spreading false rumors about him. So the fact that something like that would happen in a small town in a rural area like this where everybody knows everybody. And he and his family are kind of already written off, Chris is far as, you know, they're looked at you know, as, you know, less desirable people, or you know, or people that. Yeah. Poor you know. And so from that standpoint, they kind of Avery's, especially Steve, you know, had a sort of a target on his back. So it's always it's always been. It's kinda manifested in kind of grown over the years. And and and part of it then over time becomes just to save face. I mean, it was just so embarrassing humiliating for these people that ran the sheriff's department that thought they were buff. Everybody in town to be embarrassed. By the fact, that Steve Avery gets let out of prison, you know. And then now he's doing lots of media interviews, and he's getting you know, wined and dined by some of the state politicians who were trying to do some Justice criminal Justice reform at that point in time in two thousand three to two thousand five and it just it just had to be infuriating. And the fact that has lost. It was going forward and having success now along with that met Steve Avery would have been rich and had a lot of money, you know, probably have more money than they around Matt county for that matter. But then there's probably going to be some fallout from that, which being fit a new some, you know, somebody's gonna run for sheriff some of these people are getting it cleaned out of their jobs and stuff like that. So their livelihood. It's you know, you know. You know, we're also at stake as well. As far as Steve Avery was you know, exonerated. And you know, it was allowed to remain a key part of the community and stuff like that. And as I mean, a place like Chicago, or, you know, major city like Milwaukee, I don't know if people would have cared as much, but in a small town like this these guys do hold grudges, and you know, on a guy like Steve Avery would be you know, kind of have a target on his back. Just because I know that I saw when I was out in Nebraska, you know, one of my previous books, I wrote about where the cast would just sell enraged couldn't believe that they screwed up a case, you know, at arrested the wrong people for stuff like that. It just so they really they really do hold these things. Hold onto these things. Don't let them go. But how does it spreads to Brad Schimmel? And kind of like you mentioned the the judges at the supreme court almost doing this on Bank review of the case where where where's it creeping out of the of the county and going into the state and then into the whole nation. Well, I think at least on the state level it, especially for my for my observations when I saw Brad Schimmel inaction on the case, and he just. Really, you know, just a politician that really didn't know very much about the Brendan doc- case or the St. Baber case, but was just kinda reading talking points saying kind of with the, you know, the police, and you know, and other people in his office. You know, told them the say, so it's just one of the things that it's very hard sometimes for for these these high level politicians or even the judges sometimes to step back, and, you know, and a gift something really honest, you know, assessment I had years ago out in Nebraska, where judge found a very high powerful law CSI directory found him guilty at a bench trial of of planting evidence and stuff like that, you know, planning blooded murder cases in in in the defendants in that case, the CSI director, he actually asked for a bench trial rather than a jury trial because he thought, you know, no judge would have the guts to convict them. You know, planting evidence. So it's it's it's very rare. But to do the right thing, and I was really proud of that judge ca sending the trial was really a noble trial. But yeah, it's you have these these people that that all kind of trying to save face in there looking at from the standpoint of, you know, you know, how's Wisconsin's image? Can look, you know, if we would let Steve Avery out or Brennan Dessie out or you know, be in support of their motion to try to work with Kathleen Zellner on on the evidence testing. It's you know, there's a lot of states that have set up. I think they're called like integrity commissions, or, you know, basically prosecutors at work, you know, to make sure that convictions are, you know, are legitimate. And you know, and you just don't really see them, Wisconsin. It seems like with this case with Avery case. If anything they've they've done they've they've kinda doubled down so to speak, and you know, and really are trying to do everything they can to Kyle. Plug the, you know, the dight so the water, you know, does the dam does burst. So to speak in this case, it's it's unfortunate. But that's the way it is seems like there's a lot of you know, like reception is reality. And I think that happened kind of before Stephen was actually even convicted for for the murder of Theresa hallback in that there was so much propaganda and hype going on that he had done it that by the time he got to court. Everybody's opinions were kind of swayed to the fact that go he he totally did it because that's what everybody was saying. And it seems that kind of you know, guy like Brad Schimmel like you mentioned or these people that are talking about the case don't even really know the specifics of it. They just know that always course he's guilty. How can you not be? And then take that kind of mindset before they even know the facts, right? And that's definitely seemed to be the case to be again. I can only base it on my own life experience, Chris and and again couple years earlier, I had a similar situation in Brassica where. You know, a different Republican conservative attorney general at that point in time. He actually set up a state police task force and made sure that the local sheriff's department did not, you know, oversee this reinvestigation of this of this nineteen eighty nine late nineteen eighty so murder that that was questionable as far as whether six people that went to prison for the crime. You know, we're in fact, the the real culprits are not, and you know, and in the end, you know, the attorney general held a press conference in, you know, announce that all six of them, you know, three minutes three women had nothing to do with this crime. And it was somebody else that did the crime in he explained in great detail who this person was and how they did the crime, and how they solved it in the state of Nebraska, eventually gave all six of these people, you know, pardons, and that was technically not the most popular thing to do because, you know, the the voting area where this crime happened was mostly Republican conservative. You know? And so were these politicians that were making these decisions? But again as attorney general told me, you know, it was more important to get the case. Right. You know, rather than to play politics, and you know, and and and just kind of, you know, you know, of course, boy. Yeah. Avoid the, you know, invoice, the kind of scary thing that's behind the the door and stuff like that really confronting the reality of this case, I should say. Yeah. Overturn there's gonna be a lot of people eating crow and a lot of a lot of lawsuits. Like, we mentioned. I mean, it's almost like to get true Justice. A lot of other people are going to go down now because it's been going on for so long. So there's a lot of people that are gonna be protecting their own assets to make sure that Justice has never served just so they don't have to face it. Yeah. That's absolutely true. Because and you can't tell me that in the back of, you know, some of these people's minds that they're not thinking, oh, boy, you know, we let Brennan at the Essien in. Steve Avery out of prison. Now, you know, who are they going to sue and how many, you know, depositions? Are they going to have to, you know, given lawyers are going to get brought it and then the publicity where maybe there's another Maki murder part three and the New York Times come entirely and stuff like that. I mean, those people think about those kinds of things and stuff like that. And it's and I know especially. Yeah. Just even on the local level, you know, the city of mandatory, and like they're chamber of commerce and the tourism people. I mean, they were really trying to get some of the news stations in the newspaper in that town to really kind of back off and doing stories about making a murder after came out because they just didn't want the stigma for the notoriety of being known, you know, for for the Steven Avery and Brennan indac- case and stuff like that. So you do have this kind of you know, let's just keep this case. You know, let's not talk about it. Let's at reinvestigate it just kind of let it let it die. You'll forget about. These people. So let's hear about some of the strategies that Zellner is employing John and what she's doing to help get Stephen Avery out of prison. But before we continue forward with making a murderer exposed diamond Dallas page, we know about him. He's giving you a shot to win a million dollars this insane in his positively unstoppable challenge. I listen. The only thing you have to do for your shot at one of the prizes worth up to a million bucks is owned your own life. 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That's comes on January fifteenth available world books are sold and once again registered for the challenge and your shot at a million dollar prize, positively unstoppable dot com and pre-order DDP's book to help you transform an own your life. You can do that now. But remember you got to register for the challenge by January thirty first at positively unstoppable dot com, positively unstoppable dot com. Check it out. Here's your chance only life, and you could win a million bucks. Talk about some of the strategies that Catherine sellers employing, tesla what she's doing to kind of prove the innocence of Steven Avery. Well, she's taking a unique approach from the standpoint that you have so many different pieces of really strange. You know, an ad France cabinets that really came up. You know that was used against him at the most offer tune Tian's in which she's done. Chris is she's gone out and hired some of the cream of the crop. You know, the best of the best is far as people that are really specialized world renowned experts in different, you know, different areas of friends expense, right 'cause she's doing this all pro Bono. Good point, you'll see stress that. Yeah. This is money that stay with cancer taxpayers are paying or anything like that. This is all all money Guinness. She spending out of her own no law firms budget or Bank account, so to speak, and and she. She's met with people that are just unbelievable experts. One actually down in Florida Fort Lauderdale, Stewart James was really a world renowned blood splatter expert, and he plays a huge role in this case is far as the reinvestigation of the tree Sahal bike murder. You know, where he's he's come up with scientific evidence to show, you know, that you know, how in wear trees hall was probably killed which would have been outside of vehicle with the with the ramp for with the with the back the back door. The whatever you call it the hood. Is that right, go hatch or whatever? Yeah. Hatch. Yeah. The trunk the trunk had show lifted open at the time. So just some really unbelievable experiments that these people have done I mean, so you go from Stuart James Florida to a guy named Luke AAC who's out in the Phoenix, Arizona area. Who's just really prolific ballistic gun expert? They did numerous experiments as far as. Firing from different ranges to see whether it was possible that you could actually fire, you know, fair bullet through somebody's skull in that have skull fragments, you know, left on the bullet. Which is what happened in the true Sahal McKay send and then there's other experts that that are just unbelievable as far as being able to use some of the best microscopes around, you know, around the world, and they were able to really study the the bullet that was found in Steve Avery garage. The one that was portrayed in represented as being a bullet that passed through trees to Hallberg skull. You know, that she supposedly in with was fatally shot inside this cluttered garage of Steve Avery in these individuals have done all kinds of experiments putting this bullet under the microscope, and they found would, you know, particles, NAT brain fragments or brain matter, but would particles on this on this bullet, which raises the strong. Passability that this just was pulled out of the garage because you don't before Steve every there there was a guy that would just hunt varmints critters all the time and just fire left and right at the garage and stuff like that. It's Junkers, forget sake. So, but but anyway, so she's just really taking and there's another half a dozen other different examples, but she's just really focused with a kind of a laser laser focused, but she's just really Sirajuddin individual pieces of evidence and just how they were misrepresented or you know, or or were incorrectly presented at trial that they absolutely have nothing to do with Avery guilt to these were pieces of evidence that were you know, forged or fabricated. You know by the police and the prosecutor, according to Selander. Yeah. Because that's that's part of it too. When you when you watch the show and read the book, just how much of this evidence, you know, that they would go searching through a vehicle and then go search through it again three days later, and suddenly, oh, wow. There's blood flex and now there's you know, there's a bullet. There's there's license plates in the back of smashed window vehicle on on this junkier that the he's had right, right? There's so many of those things, and I just it blows my mind that that they were able to get away with all these things and a lot of it never even came into discussion at the original trial. Yeah. That's a good point. You said it right there Kristie said that they were able to get away with and that's the key component right there because it's just it's just blown especially. And I know that's one of the most overlooked pieces of evidence in the case 'cause there's so many different pieces of evidence. And you know, and I like a lot of people was really fascinated by that whole peculiar. Cover of the spirit key, the one that showed up on the on the bedroom floor on the sixth or seventh time that the Colbourn and link we're in there, but the license plates are also one of the most interesting items that that somehow surface in the case and several days later, and you know, and the Indus from the time stamp point. You had like two hundred police officers unbound cheer firefighters that were brought him and Sunday November six which was just for people. That's the day. After the the vehicle was found on the edge of the the ramp four Theresa hall bucks. Vehicle was found on the outer edge of the Steve property. So you have couple hundred police and firefighters searched the campus the the entire uncared with four thousand vehicles yourself the very next day. And don't find anything of any any value as far as evidently values turned and then you're gonna. A have the next day. You're going to have a couple of mantle county sheriff's officials supposedly being sent to wander around the junkier for a few hours to you know, to make sure that every vehicle was you know, was was gotten to and then and then what are you going to do? You know, you're going to bring everybody back, you know, a couple hundred people back again the following day. And then lo and behold, the crumble license plates, turn up inside of a junk station wagon. That's got no windows on it. So I mean just that in of itself, Chris, you know, just sticks to high heaven and just really looks like this thing was all staged, you know, because again, if you're going to go to that length to bring a couple hundred people, why would you even think that that they screwed up or were so lazy or incompetent that L set? You're going to need them back. And if you did really feel that way, then why wouldn't you brought them back the very next day? Why would you screwed it out and do it on Sunday? Skip. Monday. And then come back on Tuesday. You know, when you were talking about the spare kief theres's. Trees SUV that was founded in every house that wasn't there originally all of these things. Now, there's something that you wrote in your book that I thought was really interesting you said the only way that three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead an old pirate or an old gangster saying, so if this is the case, and there's, you know, a whole battalion of police in Milwaukee county that are in on this. How are they all staying completely true? And silent about it either. They're all complicit in it. Or they also have also have to look at the possibility that they may be involved, you know, in evidence planting or, you know, fabrication, I lower level, you know, smaller cases that never make it in the newspapers or in the press and stuff like that. Because you know, as often happens in a lie, these evidence planting cases, you know, it's the high profile cases, the one that draws our attention. But then you. Find out years earlier, you know, the individual was involved in you know, in kind of lower level stuff home. And I have that Allen Nebraska with the director that I talked about where he was. He was faking, you know, lame fingerprints just to basically, you know, gain a reputation of being like some gun expert when he really wasn't stuff like that. And all the cases that he was messed around with you know, we're cases that nobody had ever heard of or you know, would even care about. But he just did it for ego. And then once he was already established is great gun expert than he was also going out, you know, in planting blood, you know, in in murder cases to help shore, the police cases and stuff like that. But the fact is it's very rare. It does happen. But it's very rare that you're going to have somebody, you know, turn on somebody like this. So unless somebody has direct knowledge or, you know, had a conversation with one of these Shariff issue. Nls or police officers stay Wisconsin that may have been bald fabricating evidence or cook up, you know, stuff at the crime lab, it's unless something like that goes to the FBI, you know, that's the only real way that you know, that they could, you know, do this. Because oftentimes if we're gets out, they they you're going around trying to try to work behind the scenes and expose somebody in your own police department. Those are the people that do Sapir. I got a case like that predates me because back to nineteen ninety here in Joliet. Illinois and will county through peer scenario, where female sheriff's deputy disappeared in never been found. You know, she disappeared in nineteen ninety you know, and you know, as just those kinds of things do happen in especially in an area like match county. I mean, believe me these guys would know that so so unless they have direct knowledge and the other thing too, they're not gonna want Iraq the boat because you know, they all believe that you know, what Steve Avery as a bad person and Brennan Dessie was gonna grow up to be a bad person. I'm saying I believe this up to save. They probably believe that sell in their minds for a lot of them. They may believe well, you know, what Steve Avery didn't do the tree. So we don't know if he did the tree Sahal buck murder, but you know, what if he's out in societies out on the street. He's gonna do something to harm some other woman or beat somebody up or kill them. So he's better off. In prison. So that's kinda how lot of the light of them justify whether there was evidence that was planted or nippy lated stage in this case or other cases, they believed that the person was no good to begin with. And you know, and if we had to cut some corners, you know, and kinda cheat a little bit so to speak. You know, the end just yet. I mean, that's really what down to when when you talk about this plenty of evidence. Some of that happens, you know. Regular basis throughout the country. It happens frequently, you know, far as regular basis. I would say it happens in know, very small percentage of cases. But it does does happen. I don't want people to kind of be naive and think that case maybe the only case that some some nonsense like this has happened. Because that's that's definitely not the case. So it's hard for it to come out as far as for people to learn about it. But it does come out. Usually if the evidence is planted, you know, doesn't match up, you know, with with the person that was involved in the crime, you know, so and so I have like I said I had a key years ago when I was out in Omaha Nebraska, where CSI guy goes he ruins his career. You know, eventually went to prison for planting blood, you know, in at least two different murder cases. I I always suspected. And I point out my book that he may have at least a half a dozen other ones. But just where he was where even people that he worked with started to become suspicious, and it was just like you said, you know, oftentimes who's going back into into a car or a house. You know, a second or third time around in one case there was actually a dumpster. You know, that that, you know, there was a little boy disappeared, and you know, the belief was it his deranged father hits committed the crime, which was true. But again, the shore up the case because the little boy's body was never found the CSI investigator came up claim that he found some blood in this in this outside dumpster, five months after the boy disappeared that fact. It could not have happened. That will eventually, you know, experts California human testified that no this dumpster had been dumped forty sometimes no between January and in June. And plus it was outside in the weather. It was raining all the time. It was sowing all the time, you know, you would not have been able to get a perfect pristine the sample. You know from the bottom of the dumpster like this like the CSI investigator. You know, it claimed right fake this case the mask this John just thinking about Theresa's family because the very much involved in making a murder part one wanted to they're always at the trials are always in the court sh sh Immel's whole MO is every time they ask him about you know, what's going on. It's like we just wanna bring Justice decreases family and bring peace of mind at Therese's family, if I was in Therese's family, and there's this much controversy. Over who had done this. I would start wanting to know more as well are they at all in your dealings with with anybody with the brothers of the parents do. They hunt thousand percents still believe it's Avery Brandon. Are they ever questioning things would you find about that? I'm of the opinion that they're just kind of, you know, going along with the program and always have it just ain't for the most part have have, you know, made the decision to really either avoid being interviewed or give interviews in in these recent years. So the other thing, I don't know just happen. A lot of times is that sometimes these families become intertwined with the police investigators case, and I am like tight from again from experience on other cases, like this where sometimes that's when the police kind of really double down in. They really tell these families. You know know, you know, we got it. Right. The first time around the just some. Unethical defense attorney is trying to make it name for himself or something like that. When the apposite is really true. But again, if you have an emotional connection between, you know, some of these investigators on this case from the get-go, you know, you're going to stick with them. And so when they tell you that they got it, right? You're going to believe them. And because really, you don't know you really don't have a reason to to learn other ways. And, but you know, to me they'll think that they're smarter than Mitchell's one of them isn't attorney himself the other one works for the Green Bay Packers. They're, you know, the people, and you would think that at some point time, they step back and reassess to, you know, somebody case, you know, and you know, and have to, you know, have a discussion around the family dinner table, if something like that to the effect of could this really happen? You know, the way the Ken Cranston Manta county Tolosa did or you know, or wait. You know, is there a possibility Zellner and Steve Dresen or a right? But again, it's really hard to reconcile that. Because then you really reopening the whole case you're gonna have to relive everything. But reality that's going to happen. Anyway, you know. So just by the fact that the show is even on the air. I would assume you know, the worst thing I think anybody could ever want is closure. That's incorrect closure. You know? I mean because I mean, that's no good for anybody. Right. If the wrong people under the wrong set of facts, you know, are kind of, you know, set in stone, so to speak, you know, then then the community and the public in at large, you know, it's really under served. You know, and you know, the truth needs to come out with ever it really is. No, you're right. You're right. And then the question was going to ask you then. So let's say every DASS you're completely innocent in your your mind who killed Teresa hell back as far as the alternative suspects. And there are a lot of them. I still go back to the, you know, the strong possibility that you know, as Eleanor has done, you know, look at at Bobby, Dan. See as being allied, jiggle, you know, suspect or persevere interest just from the standpoint of of some of the behaviors that he involved with Chris. And and the fact that you have three Sahal bucks bones. You know, charred bones are found at the bottom of his burn barrel. And the fact that he was very, proficient. You know hunter, you know, where he was pretty good at, you know, cutting up, you know, dead animals and really had no fear. You know, or you know of doing that was pretty pretty good at it. So the fact that he also basically puts himself, you know, as far as watching trae Sahal at the time that she disappears. That's another red flag in my mind to you know, as far as he's he's watching her. I mean, I would argue that he's, you know, he he may be, you know, Zellner said, you know, he stalking. Her is watching her, you know, he knows that she's gonna show up, you know, on Avery road for this for this photo assignment honor last, you know, what's going to. Turn out to be our last day of life. And then the fact to the somebody's weird behavior by Bobby Desi ima days after the crime, especially the fact that he goes out and pulls the stead deer carcass of one nearby roads. You don't strings it up in his garage. You know around the time that the police are starting to poke around and look around it as Oncle and also just the whole Avery salvage yard in pretty much all the properties on every salvage, you know. So just a lot of weird strange behaviors. So again, I can't say for sure. But again, I I mean, the owner seems to feel this she's on the right track as far as really honing in Bobby Desi and his stepdad, you know, Scott Tyler show, you know, as far as maybe helping out this far, you know, getting rid of, you know, the dead body, and you know, in in concealing that kind of stuff so plus too that she found all this computer evidence of all of. The you know. Ariffin images that that Bobby Daffy was looking for online that was never once again submitted in the initial trial for evidence purposes, and all this other stuff. I mean, I actually screen shotted some of the things he was looking up from eleven year old sex girl, naked hot teen pussy nude teenage girls, drowned girls car accident deceased girl's, you know. This guy's looking for sobriety. Crazy dark star or stuff. And I and I know that the owners experts point out this was repetitive into. So this was kind of his daily is daily ritual daily behavior. So it's the exact opposite of Steve Avery. You know, who had a girlfriend really wasn't, you know, an lion or doing any of the stuff as far as looking, you know, this this really CD, you know, violent, you know, pornography and stuff like that. You know, whatever you wanna call up. But, but yeah, this is kind of death us, you know, lifestyle. And then then you get the fact that I think some of those images that you're talking about, you know, resemble trees the hall or very similar to her. And there's also discoveries of like like a holder on his computer that had you know, like a tree Sahal buck one and Steve Avery one. And I think DNA DNA for like DNA, you know, just just really bizarre stuff, and you know, and another one I just thought to Chris, and I was out on the book a little bit. But but. When he eventually gets brought in for questioning, you know, they noticed that he had a bunch of scratch scratch marks on his back. You know, and he claimed that his two or three week old labrador, you know, jumped on him very warning in caused the scratches just, you know, against eleanor's experts. Don't look at those scratches. You know, those are more likely of come from, you know, a woman's fingernails who's being attacked trying to get away break free from an attack. And you know, it's just it's just interesting that you don't see Bobby Daffy or Scottish volunteering to sit down with camping Downer. You know, and do a tell all don't tell tell her, you know, everything to try to clear themselves, and you know, what you think that if they had nothing to do or no involvement at all. They drive down the Kogyo wanting to cooperate with her rather than kind of you know, going into. Hiding or we're not trying to make any statements stuff like that. It blows my mind to that. H-, you know, once again, Ken Kratz, who is the attorney doors escaped me the prosecutor that he had this evidence of Bobby daddy's computer habits, but kind of buried it under Brendan DASS. So that no one would take it any further. You know? And then that that's blows me away as well. And then the fact like you said that now Tadic and Bobby have been, you know, accused via make you murderer to then they're not going out of their way to to clear their good name to just ignoring it. You know, right. Yeah. And the good point you brought up because that's a shows you how can Krantz behaves, you know. And just kinda guy is the fact that he went to great lengths to try to conceal, you know, hide from Jerry booting in theme string. You know? The obvious fact that, you know, this this report had been done any sat on for like seven miles in doesn't turn it over to the defense. It was actually done. I think it may of two thousand six but but right on the verge of the trial. I think we're in December two thousand six now, you know, writes up report gives them like seven items, but doesn't give them this computer disk, you know, that. You know, that had actually, you know, all this this really dark CD stuff that I'm sure Jerry beating dean Strang would have been smart enough to you know, to look at and realize, you know, this bolsters game this bolster their chances to actually put on a defense that could point to somebody else as as an alternative suspect. But without that disk know without that report, they didn't know what they didn't know. And and again that falls back on Ken Kratz, you know, and his side, you know, making a conscious decision that, hey, we're not going to give the silver to these guys. You know, because you know, we're we know if we do there's a chance that, you know, this could really harm damage, you know, the case that we're going to go to trial against Brennan Dessie, Steve Avery, in my opinion. Now is it? I mean, this is the if has you know, if Scott Tajik Tajik adage who is a stepfather and Bobby data who's Brenner. His brother if they did do this. How much more diabolical is it that they've let their brother stepson rotten jail for twelve years. You know, that that to me is the one where it's like there's no way that they could have done it. Because who could allow that to let your brother just sit there in jail knowing that it was you who really did it? It's unbelievable actually if you look up I think if somebody if you would Google I think it's just wrongful convictions. And I think the last thing fled self that mistake, but it was either out of Kansas, Missouri. I'm pretty sure Kansas, but an exact situation like that happened where where an individual went to prison for several years for a murder that was actually committed by his brother and win the police finally got around to exonerating the wrongfully convicted guy, and you know, and we're moving forward, and I think they even got a warrant for the arrest of the other brother, many years later, you know, he killed. Himself before the police where able to get there. So, but then fact that it happened. So I mean there's situations around the country where the same same scenario had happened. And actually, I think it was a case of Wisconsin that it was either Jerry booting, I think it was abusing Stranghad represented a guy with the last name of Armstrong, and he went to prison for many years in Wisconsin for for a rape, and a murder that that was ultimately committed by his brother, who's dead by the time that the case, you know, the true facts of the case were, you know, came out and stuff like that. So is is like you said is crazy as it sounds of people can't believe that. That would really happen. It has happened is happened. You know, multiple occasions and stuff like that. So I don't know how somebody could live with that. But but it's happened. Well, yeah. And that's as we wind down here. You know, I've seen some of Kathleen's tweets, she's very much on social media to giving her version of the murder time line about how you know. Once again, that's another Bobby Daffy claim that that Theresa never left every property. And then we find out she did leave the property. The car was found off the property then brought back onto the property, and there's so much stuff the bones. Like, you mentioned are in, you know, Bobby Doussi's burn barrel, and they're in Stephen dashikis and all this other stuff. The so much evidence coming out now and at the end of making a murderer twos. El-nur tries to get a retrial based on new evidence Sherie findings. It gets turned down basically stamped by judge in manitowoc county wherever it was what's the update now because I'm sure that that that that series debuted November probably filmed till probably April may do we have any more leads findings. At this point in time. Yeah, there's actually been a couple of other developments to that are really interesting that definitely deserved people's attention keeping up by just in the last few weeks or so Zellner has his partner with the gentleman. He's out of Harvard not mistaken, he's out of the east coast to Syria. And he I think sixty minutes had had recently profiled him, but he's become one of the premier DNA experts in the world now, and and he actually was out in California just a few months ago after after the wildfire wildfires and was able to to basically do some unbelievable like on the spot DNA testing that was able to identify like forty some eighty percent of the, you know, the burn victims. He was able to get them identified and he's been authorized certified, you know, the FBI and CIA although major age. Incease have no vouched for his work. So he's come on boards owners partner dope with him. And now they're trying to get access to those phones that were found at the Corey, you know, again, those the bones that were really kind of kept out of the original trial. It would downplay Kratz portray them as not even being, you know, human or you're probably not being human. But but nonetheless sounder was able to find that Nadal was that, you know, controversial no pelvic bone still in existence. But there were also two other areas in the Corey two completely different areas where were apparently human bones were found human bones that have never been. I if I'd to this point in history is you know, which is pretty damn suspicious. If he asked me, so so she's brought this individual on board. Now, they're trying to get, you know, they're waiting for the state of Wisconsin's, you know, response is far as constant going to go. Along with the program say, yes, let's get these these tested by by your new expedite the last name was seldom if an mistaken preachers on Twitter, but but in and she's even point out that she's totally fine. In in welcomes anybody from Wisconsin from the prosecution side, they can be present on observe, you know, win this guy does to his test stuff like that. So it's not gonna be you know, anything that she's trying to do, you know in the dark, but she wants to be totally transparent on all this beginning. That would really be huge. Don't you think if somehow we know for a fact that all these bones that were found at the Corey sites were a hall bucks? Because again, it totally, you know, dismantles the prosecution's original theory that somehow, you know, Steve Avery butchered, you know, tortured hall in his bedroom. And then she's still barely alive. He takes her out to his graduate. Fires a couple more shots in her head and make sure she's dead. And then throws her. Body in his burning fire on Halloween night with Brendan there, and you know, in in in then by the way, you know, a half a mile away is where choose to haul, you know, bones. Really, you know, turned up, right, right? And then there's also news now that Andrew Cockburn the one of the sheriffs who completely blew it. If you watch that he's now suing net flicks for defamation of character. And Zellner said it's like an early Christmas present explained that. Yeah. I mean the thing about that. I mean, I just watched a few weeks ago, you know, the innocent man, which was really well done the documentary on that flicked. So that was about the John Grisham book, you know, from from a little while ago, and it was really well done, but they point out in that that that the prosecutor in in the innocent man, also filed a defamation lawsuit against Jack Grisham, you know, over the innocent, man and. It was throwing out. So I mean, it's basically with Colbourne all the making a murder people, basically did was was was repeat know document. What was the original trial? I mean by the has half rain had already, you know, known the dean straying, Jerry booting that was their whole case at trial was that the Coburn in linka or the suspected evidence planters on any and all these pieces remedies. Sounders backed off that a little bit says, well, they didn't do everything, but but they did something but other people were involved in planting other evidence stuff like that. So I just don't see the case going anywhere, and I have experienced I mean, I took a whole semester in college. You know on communications law, studied, liable, and slander and all that stuff. And and and there's just don't wanna get them any any tips, but just by listening to this. But just it's it's there's a there's a. That things not gonna go anywhere with just leave it at that saying those that now he has to go back and revisit all these things. And now, they can bust them all his life. Basically is what she was saying. Well, yeah. And and his owner covered which I worked in my book, which I thought was an unbelievable was unbelievable discoveries that has happened since Maki murder part one came out, and you know, aunts who came on board. But that's the fact that she was able to find that individual that came forward a guy named Kevin Rambo who who saw bumped in Andy Colbert at the Senate gas station, and we know the guys tell the truth because he said he'd be member distinctly seeing that that poster the ones, you know, all traits in there was a poster, and it was it was it was one of the first posters that they put up a truce a hall. So so there was a couple of different versions or floating around out there and on this guy distinctly remembered seeing it and again. Is sellers point out? This guy has no dog in the fight whatsoever. You know, I mean, it's the opposite. He'd be the last person that would wine any notoriety or any, publicity, but he just kind of any didn't even watch making a murder when it first came out it just, you know, took like a year year and a half or so before he finally got around her nose stomach through Netflix and said, maybe I'll watch that, you know, but then his conscious got to him and realize I gotta do something. If you remember. But I think that what he knew and you know, it was kind of friends with Scott Tyler should send him several text messages, you know, after watching making a murderer. You know, Todd is just kind of blows off which gives kind of interesting. If you think about it, you know, so it just yeah. I mean, I don't know if Abby Coburn really thought this through, but you know, if you Google John Ferrick, and Andy Colbourne or Andrew Koper should say his formal name. You know, it always shows up in Google. But like he we did a story or one of my colleagues to the story. He sent me this long Email, basically berating me about a month after making hurt came out for some of my stories that I was doing over USA today. Yeah. Coburn it yet. They sent me this long long Email. My boss was like hell, let's row story. You know? And you know, and and my boss up from me, rightfully so, you know, but, but basically his his Email was just trying to take me the task, you know, and he was claiming that we were. You know, training private information about where Jim link lived, which is not true. We just said, basically, he moved Arizona's Lebanon, golf course or something like that. But it seemed to me though, you know, and then he said something at the end, which was really kinda cryptic. He was like, you know, you'd better watch what you're wishing for something like that his you may have bread to Daffy, you know, as when your next door neighbor someday? And it just he's just kind of guys that he just snaps. He's really impulsive you could tell in and just I think that he's one of those caps up. You know, everything's black white to him. And if he was involved, you know, in either planting evidence or helping other people plant evidence he would be the kind of guy that would justified in its mind say Steve Avery bread Modesi or just no good people. You know, and you know, so. That'd be kind of mind frame. You know, that would go on in Andy coburns have stuff like that. So. Yeah. Less question for John with all the research you've done and everything's going on do you think that Steven Avery and Brennan Dessie will will be released ever anytime soon? I think I think that they will just because I think that some point in time that there's going to be, you know, the right people will be either office or or on judicial bench at some point time and just they'll will step back and realize, you know, do the facts of the case justify a conviction. You know, today, basically, really both out was the ritual case was fair injust, you know, or, you know, if you find any hint of planted evidence or tainted testimony than the facts are that they deserve a new trial. So I think that there's a real good chance that both of them will eventually be free, and you know, be out. I just couldn't tell you right now. Chris if it's going to be three months from now, or whether might be, you know, two three years from now because again, I base that on my experience of covering the Brendan Dashti case. Whereas, you know, I was sure as you know, sure as day, you know, that Brandon was going to be set free in November two thousand sixteen and he wasn't. And then when he gets he wins his case on the appeal. I was sure as heck he was going to get set free. Finally, then you know, and the state of Wisconsin attorneys blocked it game. So it's, but now you do have the change though that Brad Schimmel and Scott Walker the governor in the attorney general who are both just kind of went along with the program so to speak in and just refused to really even reexamine the tree Sahal by case. Both of those guys got defeated in November. Yeah. Walker at run for he was want. The last guy's jumped in in the two thousand sixteen election for president. And and he'd just me. Too late to the game. But there was a lot of people thought that he was going to have a chance to be the Republican nominee for president. But he just kind of waited waited to those fifteen or whenever people already in the in the in the in the primary, and he just was lost. You could just tell that. He wasn't ready for the national seem like he thought he was, but he just really didn't have much to run out. And you know, and I guess like said he just lost to a different guy who have been the I think the states oversaw department of education for Wisconsin. So time will tell though I couldn't tell you right now, these if the to the new governor, and the new attorney general, I going to be any different, you know, then the Schimmel or Walker, but, but at least there's hope now that, hey, maybe finally we got some politicians in office that are willing to do the right thing. And may not be, you know, going along with the program and put up such a big fight like Schimmel, Greg and Scott Walker did so hopefully, hopefully, there's. Thrown over. I'll tell you what watching making murder part one. It ends on such a Downer. Part two in such a Downer. It'd be really great if per three ended with those guys, you know, walking out of jail and being free and being proven that they're innocent. Because it's quite the tangled web explained very well in your book the wrecking crew, John, I appreciate this, man. That's a real interesting topic to think about yeah. Thanks very much. Chris really for having me on again, just for great discussion about the case. Because it really is. You know, unbelievable. And and again, you know, we can only learn from history in these kinds of cases, you know, in the hope is that, you know, there's no more cases similar to this debt. You know, that could recur in our criminal Justice system. So absolutely, thanks, John. Appreciate him. And thank you very much. Chris you have a good one. Thanks, John Ferrick. The book is called wrecking crew demolishing the case against Steven Avery. And it's a great rate especially after seeing the second season making a murderer. Netflix. A you can get the book at Amazon or wherever fine books are sold once again to over Chris Jericho cruise dot com. Sign up to the mailing list. We will be announcing details on the second wave part two coming up very very soon oven that I'm pretty much off. I got nothing going on just excited to be relaxing. Taking some time off big news coming up. Actually, probably already was announced that I will talk about that more on Friday. And also we're gonna talk to the biggest deputy superstar right now. The hottest of superstar coming up the ranks time what we stop a league. He's talking about his meteoric rise tomato and status on the main roster very quickly. How it happened would have been like so far. He's talking with the sixteen years. He spent on the indie scene before landing deputy and to five live. He's also telling stories that the other Gigi had before becoming a full-time Russell us Chicago police officer. It's a great conversation with Stafa re on Friday. So we'll see it. And we'll talk more with the big announcement. And until that's hearts down peace-loving, hugs and a big. Four and go watch making a murder if you haven't seen it it must be it must be check it out and joy. And with the Westwood One podcast network.