E85: Lesa Ukman
Hi Welcome to unofficial par I'm Richard Gillis. This is the second in our series. Who's there where we talk about audiences in how to measure them? The first episode was with Matlock and was one of most popular in recent weeks I suggest that this one will be no different. Today's guest is Lisa C'mon you founded I G, nine, hundred, eighty two, and he's one of the most influential people in the world. World when it comes to attempting to measure the impact of sponsorship, if you working sport and entertainment inside strategy, you owe a debt of gratitude to Lisa. She did the half miles doing more than anyone. Pioneer champion the roller sponsorship as marketing form, so we get into it or the problem of trying to measure purpose, the rise of black washing around black lives matter to add to sports washing gay washing greenwashing. The experience of Working Group M Upman Sold AG TO WPP's group Pam in two thousand sixteen, the sexism she encountered in La Point the upside of which was get us the popular. We English term wanker on a regular basis, and the broken incentives of meteoroid sues the mafia-like politics of Chicago, loads and loads more. You won't want to miss this. Lisa I have a bit of fan for a while now and since I remember. Back in the early two thousands and People were saying upon you need to get to. Chicago needs to get the I. E. G. Conference. There's this sort of buzz around this whole and I. Just wanted to go back before we start. We're going to talk about sponsorship and Sports. Marketing, and all of those things that you'd expect, but I just want to sort of go back a bit and How did you start because it's a it always interested in? Careers in in this area because it's not obvious, sometimes, it's a side route into from somewhere else, and it's not. It's not somewhere that often. People sort of tell the career teacher the I wanna be a being sponsorship and measurement and. Rest of it so just! How did you? How did you get going? What was the link? Okay, so I was a philosophy political science major in college, which did have a lot of translation to a job necessarily but I, also throughout college worked at a newspaper in the town where I went to school. So I also had a journalism background, so I graduated college and Came back to Chicago to live and got a job as journalists is a reporter. On a local paper, not just JEN renews Cover. More, features You know. Yes more features and It was okay, but it wasn't like. My Life's goal I was thinking is there's gotTa be more to this? A lot of the features were like whoa women's interest features and things like that and it just that was not really trick so I was looking around and this. Woman was running for Mayor of Chicago in something. I always was very interested in obviously with my background, political science was politics. And she was a reformer candidate, which in Chicago in those days was shockingly rare. You know we'd have mayor Daley forever just just just just for us over here. What does that mean? What is a reform candidate meaner make? Reformed candidate means there was a very strong and still is political machine embedded in Chicago through patronage jobs, so basically it's. Almost like a system a mafia in the sense that you have a godfather or a person above you. Who if you run into trouble? You have too many parking tickets, or you need a tax. Break on your real estate taxes, or whatever you go to your committee. Men than you would go to your Alderman, and then you're alterman would for the right amount of money take it up with the people on the committee that oversees whatever your problem is in the fixed would be in an. That's how Chicago politics. You know functioned. And was able to always turn out for presidential candidates for example. More votes than there were people voting age living in Chicago. Okay, that would the machine. She was running as a reform candidate meaning. She was going to clean up the machine. So I For her campaign and I went there for the volunteer interview because I wanted to work in her press area. Since I had this experience, and they just put me to work, and I never went back to my job. Basically, the newspaper and I stayed with her throughout the campaign and she won the election. Her name was Jane burned. I ever mayors of a major city and it was huge news worldwide. And I really had. A front row seat because I was writing her speeches and I was sitting in on every interview with the press. Basically, there were two of us in the press office. I was definitely the lower down junior person. But. It was an incredible opportunity when she won. She took five of us that were volunteers during the campaign with her to City Hall. So I was working writing her speeches in the press office when I realized that pretty much everything she had said during the campaign. Was Not true in that have she felt? She was as much a part of the machine. As you know someone from mayor, Daley's family would have been. A on was very quickly and bad bed with cabal of evildoers that she had called out during the campaign. So I went to resign in one of the five people from the campaign said don't resign. Go takeover this office of special events. There's a three million dollar hotel motel tax budget there and you can do some of the things that she promised. So I did that and quickly decided you know we have female Mayor Welp? We're getting rid of the beauty contests on Venetian night. Okay, that was like one of my first big moves. And turns out that There's the Colonel Riley from the daily administration that still actually calling the shots on a lot of thanks. Even though that was news to everybody in, he wouldn't let me cancel the beauty. The beauty pageants so fine. But my first big initiative that everyone was oblivious to because they had no idea who this organization was. Was the mayor's Office of Special Event partnered with Vietnam Veterans Against the war in had the first in the United States welcome home picnic for Vietnam veterans and the fact that we did this with the Vietnam veterans against the war was Major. Okay, head mayor, burn him any idea who they were arrived had any idea who this organization a never would have allowed it, but it was in a radical experience and I got. All these bands to donate their time and to make too short I became like the festival. IMPRESARIO for the city of Chicago started. The Chicago Jazz Festival the Jazz Festival in the world. Winner Carnival where we bought a thousand pairs of country skis in wanted to teach. Everyone had oppressed country skate. You I can I can start to see I can see link now I can see the line starting and I can. It starts to make sense. And probably the thing I liked most were the neighborhood festivals because that's the people who elected Jane Byrne were all these grassroots neighborhood organizations in that she kind of turned back on them. So this was a direct line for them to at least get into mayor's office, so we started thirty of these. And I realized because I quickly went through this three million dollar budget. That all I had to do was call up a corporation in Chicago in say, I'm with the mayor's office and they would want to sponsor these festivals in events. So I'm like Oh my God. This is the greatest form of marketing in the world. It doesn't interrupt people. It's not making the networks richer. It's just bringing a higher quality of life to people in urban environment, and the brands are breaking through. We don't hate them. We actually liked them because they're doing something different and unique so. I- I resigned because I was tired of. You. Know promoting her and everything like that. And I reached out to the publisher of Advertising Age which is. In the US kind of like marketing. Because I. Mean isn't. Exactly so I, want to start a newsletter. What I was calling sponsorship, Okay and I. Even though I had a writing background, I didn't know anything about publishing newsletters and so I thought, let's make age. They'll be my partner. They have all the reaching all the marketing people. I mean. I knew nothing about any of this. So. They were very interested in the newsletter business, not necessarily in sponsorship business, so they said okay. They put up the money in the first year. I worked at CRAIN's. Which is the publisher? But it was clear very very early on that like my vision, and there's nothing ally and I was quitting every other week and I had this whole place up in arms because I had a direct. Link to the board in ownership in this newsletter. They never done anything like this before I was just in the right place at the right time. So. After the year came to an end, I tried to buy back from them. And? They were so fed up with me in. No one could manage me. They said okay. You can buy it back, but I had paid them back like not only every penny they put into it, but like for five years you know some huge percent revenue, cetera. That was fine. I was just so happy to have this newsletter. Subscribers now to get going, so that's when I left. Program started I E J. So. This is early eighties. This is the early eighties Yup and It was I. Actually ran into the ranch sprain. Who took sort of leap of faith on on me about ten years ago. Laughed about that whole situation again. I'm just newly minted pretty much from school. It I have very sort of specific idea of how business should be run in what's right and wrong and had no idea what was involved really with the big publishing companies, so they were thrilled to see me go. They got their money in their profits and I was so happy to have that newsletter because my thinking was. We have to create an industry that has legitimacy, and so the idea was a newsletter to cover it. The industry would be the first way to start legitimizing it. So are that you'd be so that's since sort of eighty two. You've been working for yourself essentially Sarah exactly yeah. Difficult. Difficult to manage. And that and that compliant on that with anyone to program. So. You know if I buy into what you're trying to do. I'm a team player for sure. But. You know this wasn't at the days of enlightened companies. Let's put it that way. I would change little difficult. But I've mellowed to a real lot, but I started so. I had. I had about fifty thousand dollars in unfulfilled subscription revenue to start my business with. That's how I started it in funded it. But. The obligation was to deliver every two weeks the newsletter. So what I did was I brought all my friends from. The age with me, so I started out with like fifteen employees. And, quickly realized that you know I'd have like payroll for a couple of weeks. Baby, so this was. This was a publishing business that you use that's. Really the goal from me was I wanted to consult to cities around the world about how to do events with corporate partners. I, I called it municipal marketing. but I was really convinced that this was in the days of you know. Will you guys have nationalized TV in the UK, but in the US you know there were four networks that was it and it was thirty seconds spots. You could reach seventy eighty percent of the population and you know it was measured media, and that was it and I hated measured media I. It adds a hated everything about it. It was just me. The wrong sort of formula was one-sided suspicious. Just let's just just for secondly, so you've got so when you talk about measured media, you're talking there about the sort of Nielsen, ratings, systems, ratings, and you get made goods if the ratings are there and. Yeah but again it was all about interrupting people while they were watching something with bogus claims to me, anyway and just making some networks richer that didn't seem right because you know they've got the airwaves which belong to the public, but now they control them in their fortune dishonest I just was like opposed to the whole idea, so I was so adamant that sponsorship was was such a beautiful thing because it was. Going back to the idea of Almost. Enlightened self interest where the city benefits the people in the city benefit that arts benefactor marathons benefit so that you're looking at it from a you're looking at it from a almost a sort of patronage. Move for them for being angle, but I always knew the brand had to get something. I mean I always had that focused bit? It had to have a higher return. Say Than A thirty second spot which one of our conferences. was described by Chris Widow. whose Founded something called Channel One anyway as All takeoffs in no landings. That's how he described measured media. Yes, it's measured. They can tell you what time it leaves, but not if it ever arrives sports. Going to or you know anything else and the yeah. So and. We its measurement, the I associate. With this. Come up with a with a way of of. Just answering that question that you've just yourself into the LATTE wed. is it land I guess? And how did you go about that? I'm interested because I. Think it's quite what you did. Then you still see. Today. There's a sort of there's there's a very influential way of thinking about. Sponsorship is also just the practicality of it. Just, talk us through how you arrived at it and what he actually is just pick it for a minute because it be good fund this for the listeners to stir to peer inside the blackbox. So. One of the things like I was angry about things a lot including the fact that it was so easy for a pro sports team to get quote sponsorship or say the IFC the Olympic Committee to get sponsorship in yet these amazing events that word sports were really just considered, you know. Fund raising. Opportunities not as marketing assets so I wanted to level the playing field to make it easier for a jazz festival or A 'cause that was really important to to be able to not necessarily get the same amount of money as a pro sports team, but to be able to present themselves in a way that would resonate and there you know at the end of the day. The difficulty in selling sponsorship and I still see that today is you're selling intellectual property. You're not selling measured media. You're selling intellectual property in. It's a hard concept. So what I wanted to do with putting measurement around was to say okay. What is it is intellectual property? So if you by the International Olympic Committee package the top package you get the right to the five rings, the right to marketing promote the fact that you've your partner and use these five rings globally. There's no televised scientist. There's no idea on athletes. There's no athlete endorsements. You know there's no tangible ago with it. So. Let's say the IFC we were working with them. At the time is the ultimate. Valuation Client for sponsorship. Because their zero tangible there, how would we go about then coming up with eighty million or a hundred million global justification, so we worked backwards, and that's how I came up with all the intangibles. and. Things like what's the value to the company of being able to Co brand with an entity? That's a love brand like the I O C, would the company itself may be any you know the opposite of a love brand, so it was working backwards to come up with those metrics, so give me an example then of a of an in a bit of intangible sort of asset. The then work get back. So what does that? What does that mean? So. The American Library Association it's a Membership Association of Librarians that. Have you know mostly public libraries wrong the United States. They one of my. Very first clients that in. My heart is with bucks, so I loved this client, okay? So. They did a conference every year for their twenty six thousand members, and said you know we. We want to keep the fees love for our members, so we to think about bringing sponsors. Can you help us think about value? So I looked at the American Library, association, not the conference, because like careers about these twenty six thousand librarians, but I looked at oh. My God, there's more library cardholders than visa cardholders. There's more libraries than there are McDonalds. If we just look at this as a channel for touch, points, distribution mailing sampling. There is big as it gets. You know so. The first deal that not deal that sold because I never would sell sponsorship, but I put together their offer letter for them, and they sent it to Microsoft. We created something called the fun for America's libraries it it didn't exist. It was a new five. Oh One C. Three nonprofit and Microsoft was their first officer for ten million dollars. Now had we valued what came to us with which was their conference? You know it would have been a struggled to get Microsoft. Twenty six thousand dollars in say for example. But here they came from from twenty, six, thousand, the gap between twenty, six, thousand, tangible and ten million. In the intangible. Right. And, it was all based not on. It was all hidden assets you know. They didn't have In their mind, these touch points. They didn't see those assets, but they were there. They were sitting on them, so we brought them out for them in. There were so many projects I worked on exactly like that. One time a real estate developer that owned office buildings came. To us and they wanted to do like concierge services and get some corporate partners for that is a way to attract tenants. And I was like. Oh. My God. You're in an elevator. You are captive. Install videos in the elevators and sell advertising that forget about your stupid little concierge thing okay, and they did that in the that ended up getting sold and becoming a public company, and whenever now I'm in an elevator in to lad with the ads sort of annoyed at myself, but. Another example of the hidden assets in there were so many of these. Sports Sports. Teams always reverted back to impressions to this day. They still don't get it. Okay. The most the pro sports teams are out there selling title of their stadium because of the guaranteed impressions and. They don't understand the hidden assets of what they have. So I mean look at my bread and butter idea sports. Seventy percent of our clients were sports I love Them I, guess, but the challenge is in thinking about non traditional. Opportunities that really don't have the built in guaranteed visibility from media that the pro sports teams have if you. If you are on the pro sports teams, you'll commercial people on the on for an NFL team. Yeah, you are! There is a game being played, and you are a beneficiary here on your noise happening in terms of those Nielsen numbers that. Chart an chart eyeballs, and then you are. Putting evaluation just on a media valuation on the sponsorship and actually. NAH position. Most people would say yeah. Let's do that because it's easier. It's much easier and look. There's a whole bunch of media buyers whose job it is to go. Buy Those impressions you know it's way bigger than sponsorship buyers so in it's much easier sell than intellectual property were. There is no, there's no made goods or anything. But that still doesn't mean to me. That is just selling media. You're not really selling sponsorship. And that's why so many of the team's never gave say category exclusivity, because that's one of the sort of defining features of the sponsorship is. We are married here and I will not have four other banks, the official sponsor of of my team. You're my exclusive bank partner. I, want my fans to go. Do business with you, but when you get so much more of your revenue from media than you do from sponsorship. There's no way that you're going to convert to that. But potentially there was a real huge opportunity. I think for sports to go that route, but they did it. That's okay. And terms of the I mean the basic problem and it's the marketing challenge more is not just a sponsorship challenge, but it's the the issue of attribution and what you said at the be that nice phrase of of takeoff and landing. Dry. In terms of how you build an evidence base that something is happening. On the brand side whatever is. When you when you go to. Talk to sponsors. It's trying to establish will. So what we've done this and there is an there is an assumption of Something good has happened, but it's very hard to make an evidence base case. Is that still the compensation? I? Think it's less because. I do think that over time. You know the idea that emotion drives behavior is pretty well accepted. You know this Guy Got Nobel Prize economics for showing that that that's the case you know not sponsorship, but in financial decisions I do think that you know. Most marketers understand that you need a story for your social media, and you need a motion to change behavior and sports arts. Entertainment causes those are the things people care about so that's less difficult nowadays, but like why I love your name from the moment I saw unofficial. Partners I made. That was like Oh my God. That's so perfect because I think twenty years ago. Official sponsor just started to mean you know. I paid money for this and there's not necessarily. Any riskier from my brand anymore, because everybody's doing it I'm just a lemming now in I think consumer, stop giving companies credit. So the issue becomes you know now. What do you do to truly stand out to not be accused of greenwashing or black washing? It's black lives matters. What do you do that really is adding something to an ecosystem so that you can get credit from your customer and your prospect, so the they love you more and change their behavior. That's that's the challenge in. That's where I sort of moved into with nonprofits not cause marketing, but. What I call pro social. So tell us about what. We're now into. What? We've what we've missed out actually what we should. The big irony that we missed that so when I sold out in two thousand sixteen in. Why did we sell because? Basically. You know we were getting caused in working with major brands global brands. An opening up offices to serve them around the world that was endeavor might interest at all. and. Frankly, the business side was never might interest. It was to me a movement, and I wanted to make a community in I wanted. You know sponsorship to get the same recognition as other types of marketing, so that that was my mission and my passion, but it was really clear that that in terms of management Me being the biggest sort of problem here We couldn't keep rolling in servicing people the way we were, so we tried first to bring in outside managers, but going back to mind very compliant days that was that wasn't working too well, so we did sell in. Here's the irony. Who did we end up selling to group them? The world's largest media buying cuff account in the world. And that was not who I wanted to sell to I'll say right there. I even my brother and sister shares as they came into the business, so they outvoted me there, but it doesn't matter it's. but that was the irony, and so we got salt to group Bam. And what? What was that like initially? Horrible so. Just, because he saw things you. They they were what you didn't stand for essentially. During that at the time we saw we were working on A. Project A ROI PROJECT FOR A. To us a major client you know. Maybe they were paying US editor, two hundred thousand dollars to look at several of their sponsorships and analyze their return on investment and They were media properties. And we were showing them that they were paying these huge premiums on the media side and the sponsorship side, and they were getting no credit from their customers or the fans of these sports events. They were doing the only thing that was working for them. Was this theme Park Partnership that they had? That had no media piece to it that. Okay, we had all the primary research it was. It was a brilliant project. It was a big pine to us. So I get a call from you know somebody at Bam and Oh. The same plan is like A. Forty million dollar client of theirs and Vinnie were ones that recommended the media pieces, and they were like you know these this is not acceptable. You know just up. and. You like being told to shut up. Anyway it was not a great fit our home model. Their model was really turnkey. Hire these young people. These media buyers train them market up. Get our money. The at our whole model is it's so labor intensive. We charge. A feed has nothing to do with ours. It's got everything to do with value. We get money. They just nothing about this was a good fit. Not Familiar story so say one that you hear a lot about. The working sponsorship in sports. Marketing, within. The network. It's the incentives out a whack on. That's the hard work. He's trying to align incentives within that, yeah yeah. That is deafening. They're just such different animals and you know all the below the line service, agencies. And all the media agencies really were looking at the time for new sources of revenue to make up for the fact that the media marketing world was changing so dramatically. So I think that's why they bought us, but it was you know from the beginning such as strange ad fit in the other ad thing was I was always enamored with British marketing. Okay from the beginning. I think because. You know. The network started out as being not advertising base, but you know government subsidized. The media coverage of things like sinus in sponsorship in Britain was just such a higher level than the United States. Where it, you know, nobody understood. About sponsorship, and how it is different from advertising, but in Britain, you guys always did. And of course I love British. You know plays books every, so I was so excited to be part about British entity, but then I quickly found out that like things that I took for granted all these years like bit. You could be a woman. Do whatever you wanted. There was so much sexism We all spoke English, but we spoke different languages, so that was a bad thing to look more and more in London. Yes I couldn't believe it. I finally got to use the word wanker I'd always read that word inflated British, novelist. Whenever got to use it was like. Ten competition among the agencies interbank. They set you up. So you know here I. Thought we were off Family Ha-. Run that. You are under the umbrella with two circles. What point I actually had met two circles I was in Poland conference and I heard them speak and I came back and said we need to buy them and so That was like towards the end of my tenure. We did and up buying them but now. We're separate again, but I was really impressed with what they were doing community. 'cause they would presumably have the same challenges within group. Allah Bruin now. I don't know if they're the same challenges because they were kind of from that ilk of you know. Go Boys, I think a little bit I mean lovely people, but they knew how to you know. Get along with everyone I, think. So? And listless, so in terms of the sold in I had to stay for five years that was part of the deal and then I just basically did pro bono stuff from my house. I never wanted again. On manageable you Alisa Yeah I guess. Same Time I was in. Qatar in I'd always been a big fan of homeless World Cup even though it was not a well known in the US. And I met the founder, and he was telling me his story about how. He couldn't get any sponsorship or had a very hard time with raising philanthropic dollars and yet. The results were really amazing. I mean people in their participating in their program at vary by country, but you know some countries. It was high as like eighty percent of the participants were off the street two years later still. He had research with all this in. Raise any money so as like. Why are you going to every fee for partner? In having this be some idea for their pro social activation of people World Cup now. This is at a time when you know. Nobody should have been a big fan of fi phones. Okay and I thought they need you so much. Then I found out that you know Viva did not see it that way. In fact, they told him if he went to their sponsors. They would take away his right to use the words World Cup. Well that that set me off on a new pet or sure. Because I was just not happy when I heard that because first of all would have been perfect for so many of the visa sponsors to do. With them and second of all, they should have embraced Thomas World Cup because they were so socially irresponsible. Do you think so? It's interesting? Not so you've. been along time champion of sort of brand purpose OC- repurpose wherever you know the words change, and you know going out fashion or whatever, but you you. Brought from the beginning, but it has been that threat in your career in your work, and now everyone is talking about it. Yeah, and I have a problem when everyone starts to hear about it because it feels like. This is just a marketing thing. The else you'll, you'll take on that. Yeah, no I think in the US. We've been witnessing blackwash lately. You know all these companies that don't necessarily do business with black on companies don't necessarily. Make it a great environment for black people to work in our like we support you black lives matter and that is just. You know. Shabby wet, and then you look at a company like Ben and Jerry's, which truly for the last five years or more have made been making substantial contributions to the conversations around race They kind of get. Tomato diced in with all these other people talking about all these other brands, so yes, it even the whole beat core mentality. That's taking over. It's almost like now. You can go through the checklist and be considered socially responsible I hate. I once gave target as. Why I hate corporate social responsibility, because to me, it was not about responsibility was got opportunity, and if you look at this as responsibility, you're never gonNA. Get it okay. If. You don't get that. Having diversity is a business advantage than you're so stupid. You shouldn't even be in business. So. But now you've got this whole movement of corporate social responsibility in purpose and. It's more like I've done my checklist so now I'm good the end when it's not anything in their DNA, so of course they're gonNA end up screwing up anyway. Is Hard to do, it's so. The here here I am all against myself, but I hear you on that, but in terms of without a checklist, sort of approach, actually quite difficult to establish what it is, the won't companies to do. Because they all just corporate being and they will, they will be all bureaucracies. And getting them to move I. Guess You have to play that game to an extent. I mean I. Don't like a checklist as much of the next person but I think I don't know how you then make those changes real without some form of sort of bureaucratic apparatus. you know in the UK you guys had someone named Anita Roddick that started the body shop's. More migrate regrets. Is I never got her to I? E G before she passed, but. To me, someone like Anita Roddick Anne Bonds Gerard from Pentagon. Yeah, and Bancone from Ben and Jerry's for example. Those were creators of brands. It wasn't a social enterprise I mean. They were clearly in creating products that people wanted in. It was a business. But embedded in the DNA is. A bigger. Movement our purpose. It really attracts a community of buyers that are buying into that purpose. Yvonne Schnur always said when he was being boycotted for supporting. Pau Planned Parenthood. If. You're not for planned parenthood. I don't want to sell my close. Really you don't deserve That was his attitude. But it's not about the checklist it's really about. It coming from the tap down in the bottom up and the customers in the entire community about something bigger than just the transaction. But if you are if you are. On that, but the when you and use the phrase DNA which I think is. Is. In the body shop and the examples that you've you've. Cited there it was absolutely in the story and the the. Genesis of the business it was built in an. Visit there's a coach of strategy question I. Guess Hanging around here in terms of whether or not, you can actually change the culture of organization when you where you might have a lot of well-meaning people working for a bank or insurance company, who, on a day to day basis or ripping people off, but they want to do good and that there is there are these two two things which sort of coalescing and so I guess. Unless, you are lucky enough to have that within the back story of the organization, and it's you know it seems like Ben and Jerry's on the body shop. It's I don't know what you do. If you are A, it's a a an organization that doesn't have that in his DNA but does want to change and does want to evolve because I I. It's it feels I. Just wonder. Though the the question is whether or not the strategy of of. Of Brand, purpose is of any use when you're battling again. This is a cultural issue with an organization. Yeah you know we. Have Gotten so many requests, so my new business percents valuation service. was. For Homeless World Cup to be able to go out and raise some money right now. Idea was raising money from funders That's why I created in in my mind. It was always GonNa be for the non profit. But so many businesses are calling asking us to value. You know they're. They're good works. Okay, their professional works. So I've. Tried to do five of these and truthfully. Have produced zero because it is a problem, so say you're a company. Soft drink company, and you do so much good truly even though it wasn't embedded from the beginning, you now have enlightened people that really understand the power of the brand, just like celebrity, using their brand new could use your brand okay to really make the world better and at the same time. Make your customers even closer to you. But then you have to look at wait a minute. Loop the the issue of obesity sugar look at the issue of they're taking water from communities around the world to make their product and. They shouldn't be allowed to have access to that free water necessarily of Hang, so you start looking at all the negative things and I do think it is. There's no such thing is like pure anything, but these these corporate procession evaluation so far. have been very problem at and. You're right. There's. There's a danger. The cut that those companies are ringing you up. They just want your badge on our badge. They WANNA imprint and you know it's. It's regulated industries industries that have yeah, so we don't want to do the again. The center of it is not in trouble. At the center of IT IS A. It's the same with us as human beings we are. We're capable of adopting two conflicting points of view in the set at the same time we were you know with with sort of contain motives wherever the the phrase might be and company all the same companies. At the same. At the same moment in the organ in a larger organization, you have these two things coalescing, we one is a desire to do good, and the other is the embedded in what they do is the bad stuff, absolutely and what you even credit them for doing so some of the people on my team believe that a company that has you know a certain percent of females on their board or people of? Of Color should get credit at again. Going back to an earlier point I'm said to them. No, that's just smart business. Okay truly if they don't have diversity on their board. They're not going to be in business in five years. Okay, maybe it'll be six years I. Don't know, but they're idiots. Okay, and they're not gonNA last. So, what do you credit them for doing? What are you even put under? Doing. Good that that itself is is really a value judgement and who gets to make that you know the sustainable development goals. Those are great goals. You can't argue with any of them, but they have taken so much funding away from so many things that don't necessarily fall in those goals because like lambing, every company wants to be part now have sustainable development goals. So, that's really hurt. Big Time. the arts. In who gave UN the right to decide that? These are the global goals in every companies foundation to get behind these. Fund these what what gave them the right to decide that? You know is not to. Do you think that the sort of those goals which? Are the framework by a lot of people they that's the most sort of one of the first page of of the social purpose. Yeah, you think that the actually that's a problem. I can't say it's a problem because you know you agree I agree with every single goal. They're fantastic, okay? But again. What's not included now is pretty much you. It's almost impossible to funding for those things. what? And the other thing is. The whole idea around, how do you measure? It's all based on commitments. Okay, so this company committed to this much money in having this percent diversity by this day okay or lowering their carbon footprint to this not those are great things, but there's no look at outcomes, or what is the company really like? And what are the costs you are at the at the same time you know. Are they taking advantage of financially illiterate customers in their banking, you know. There's none of that so now. You get the imprint of Oh. I've contributed. To goals, six, nine and ten. You know I've met in exceeded that Oh. Everybody looks at you as a great corporate citizen, but we minute. What about the fact that you're doing this dismiss? Nobody's looking at that. So that's what pro social and again I did not start it for corporations. But have been looking based on calls that you know. Can we create something? That could show me as a customer for example, if I want to choose between three big box retailers flair to shop. Okay, in one is truly doing. Amazing things and if you divide all their good by the revenue. overed over doing good in their category, but their competitor is much better at storytelling marketing, so their competitor gets all the credit is being. You know the most socially progressive responsible company, and not the one really doing the work that would be a reason why motivated to keep trying this. But you have to look at the whole. You can't just look at the good. You have to look at the cost. What are the costs of their business to society? When. It's like saying you know in a sports context. Lance Armstrong in. You get everything and. It's. It's very difficult because actually. Embedded in in. Public Relations and calms is a K.? We need to build a counter narrative and quite often. The counter narrative is exactly what you're your. The is it's? The, let's get some good stuff done. And it's really confusing people. Customers sports fans. Investors is very hard to to to work out where they stand and I think. That's part of the strategy. The strategy is confusion. Let's that's that's throw. Something out there which counters the bad story and we can then focus out brandon that and it's very difficult, and I'm trying to work out how you'll model would get bill nut. So we subtract the caught, so we turn everything into current safe. Because the only way again go back to how do you compare? If you want to fund a nonprofit, if your foundation in you know, you want to eradicate poverty. Had you compared thirty different organizations all seemingly doing great work? To lower the number of people living in poverty. had. You really compare them until now. It's all been based on outputs. Three thousand people were trained in this. We mentored four hundred people, and so I said No. This is just a flawed way of assessing a nonprofit. We have to look it outcomes, and then we have to subtract the costs of the grid in not just financial cost, but you know we just work with an organization Arch question Bethlehem Pennsylvania and they turned abandoned steel mills, the the largest, Brownfield in the United States into a year round, arts and Education Sennar. Amazing initiative okay, but typically gentrification comes with creating such a development right so after we added up all the good and converted them to dollar values. We then looked at gentrification and subtract that cost, or they've lowered crime in the area, but before we could give them credit for lowering crime. We had a look at the all. The surroundings zips to say. We'll wait a minute. ZIP codes declined. Just move. You know eight blocks over than they're not gonNA get the credit. So you do have to look at the whole as. holistically okay in again. It's a lot of work and it's not easy. Next. Noah Senate known for. Wanted something easy pay. So hard I, if I know and I never would started this I gotta stay. So. Right let's let's finish off with a with the inevitable cove question. What impact is going to have in your world. What's the I personally? You'll you'll through an and well about what's? What's going to happen? Do you think that this is a reset? That in the sponsorship. Mark, I, ask Sally Hancock. Who you know for, what would you ask? Lisa and she said she is an opportunity for a reset. In this whole shit mark is because a nice question. We had such a sally. I Love Salads such as Sally Brilliant Question. So I do think just looking at Different indicators like Sales, of certain items that have gone away and people's work habits that have changed and people seeing that things. They never thought they'd be doing. That they're now doing I do think it is an opportunity for a huge reset, and I think that first of all if You're selling sponsorship. If all you're doing is going back to the way it was done before. No one's GONNA. Pay attention to you because I. Don't think anyone's GonNa. Really pay attention to. Something that's just sponsored in less. You're adding something of value to ecosystem or a community. I just think no one has time anymore to pay attention. So the challenge is really going to be. Not. What do you sponsored? How do you sell it? But how do you make one plus one? Brand in the sponsor equal three of four meaning they build out a program not around assets that are existing, but around things they can create the add value and the sponsored property is just the platform. To. Tell the story of something else that you end that property are doing together that to me is the power of wear. It's GonNa. Go next And is going to require people. I think again to work harder to understand and use primary research. What people? What's the value? What's missing? Where is there an opportunity for these two brands to come together and do something new and That's really benefiting people I. Think that's what we are going to respond to and. If. You don't have something to add to this conversation going on people you wanna reach than you know. You're wasting your money by being there just being there as presence. So. We can. We can agree to keep the word sponsorship. Can we because there's sort of? Every now, and then every now and then you know. It's partnership that we had the Polish. There's just starting new were just can't handle any more worldly son. Just need I just need simplicity, and you know a lot of does come out the UK I. Think the little bit that whole. That whole discussion around the world that doesn't matter people. Get it what you call it. You know it's like nothing's going to change if you're just changing the word. Now. Well listen great to hear you again. And always in in great form and thanks and keep doing what you're doing. Be well.