Is the American Dream a myth?
I am in some people's eyes other, but I think just as a chore like personality traits. I wouldn't say that, that ever made me feel like I was actually less than them or that I was vulnerable in some way. That's just not the way that I personally am wired to approach the world. Hello and welcome to the alien chronicles. I'm your worst side. The Han today's guest is Jae Chang. She is the author of vans versus the world. The book has been named a New York Times edit is Joyce as well as best book of the year by Amazon BuzzFeed NPR and others. Jade has appeared on national programs. She has spoken to audiences at universities and book festivals, according to NPR, and I, quote book is unrelenting -ly, fun, but it is also raw and profane Estonia, fierce pride fierce anger uneven fierce in love on, she's also the contributing writer to the good immigrant, USC my favorite book, acid- titled, how to send your study is the perfect ending to this great book. We'll talk to Jade about your writing, and a lot more welcome to the show, Jade. So excited to have you, thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. So let's jump right in Bonn. In Columbus, Ohio. But you grew up in lake any Dennis a little bit about your childhood. What was the culture like at home? Yes. So I was born in Columbus didn't my parents were in grad school there. So I didn't really spend any time there. We moved to LA when I was still in elementary school and Griffin a family that where I wasn't allowed to speak English in the house. You know, I grew up speaking Mandarin Chinese outside, it has, I think the real difference. You don't now in retrospect, I feel really lucky about where I grew up because the San Fernando Valley was very diverse. There were a lot of different lot of different immigrant groups living, there, a lot of Asians, a lot of Latinos, in mice schools. I would say that way. People were not the minority, but they definitely also were not the majority, and I don't think I realized kind of what a difference that. May the in just the way that I saw myself until I met Asian people who grew up in the middle of the United States. Let's say you know, in town in Wisconsin. That was nearly hundred percent wage. So how does yawn upbringing different from those kids who grew up in a predominantly white community? Oh, yeah, I think it was really different. I mean, I think the main thing is, I didn't have that experience of feeling other, you know, I didn't feel like I was conspicuous because of my appearance at all. I mean, I was aware, of course, the fact that lie that Asians are a minority in the United States, but it didn't feel like that to me on a day to day basis, I would say that white people were not there were not in the majority in the schools that I went to unfor for the wins. I got to meet a lot. Lot of you know, there were a bunch of books by other Asian Americans that came out around the same time, and one of the great things about that is that you get to meet each other apple festivals and things like that. And I definitely have spoken to a lot of people who grew up in the mid west in tiny towns, where they were literally, the only Brown face in the towel when I feel like for them there, definitely was this sense of, you know, often being on the defensive, I was feeling like the only Representative of their raise all of those sorts of things and I really realized how lucky I was that I hadn't, you know, that I didn't have to deal with that at all. What inspired you to be a writer? I mean, I think all writers start out as reader, right? Our loved to read as a kid, always, and still to this day. The were always stories that I wanted to tell I think I like every aspect. Of telling the story, you know, I enjoy kind of creating really interesting characters I love building a world. I love the kind of plot and story aspects of it. I love dialog banter, you know. Yeah. So definitely all of that. But I also think, you know, when it came to the novel when it came to the wins, I think that I also just felt a real desire to write a different kind of immigrants story. That was my real driving force for starting map book for sure. So this is a fiction, right? It's it could have been set anywhere. It could have been set on Mars, but you said it in California. Will you die in some of your own experiences in this book? I mean, yes or no? Right. I think that no matter what whenever anyone create something. Of course, it comes kind of. Really tireless from their own experiences and interests. Right. But I think that I it wasn't so much that I wanted to kind of tell my family story because definitely not that it was more that, you know, it's chanting Los Angeles than it's actually a cross country road trip. And there are a lot of different worlds that I wanted to explore the love a road trip story. This seemed like the best way to, to combine them. And how do you translate the concept of your cultural heritage for means stream, and I'm talking by mainstream? I mean mainly bite Vitas in your writing without expanding your truth, or without giving explainations foot, who you are. Yeah. I mean, you know, I don't think of it as translating four someone else's benefit. Right. I think that, you know there's a kind of truth in fiction. Read is the specific is universal that when you tell a really specific story that we knew. Tell a story with a lot of authentic specific true emotions in details. It becomes a universal story. It becomes a story that, that a lot of people can relate to end. So I very much decided not to explain anything, you know, I very much decided not to, for example, offer direct translations for so the matter that's in the book, even though honestly, if you read it, it's you can get the meeting through the rest of the dialogue. But yeah, I think that was a really deliberate decision on my part. Not to try to make myself palatable for an audience. That is not me. You know, and dude, why do you think that's important that took good question? But I also it takes me a minute to think about it because I feel like it's just so true to me that it is important. I am so long since I've thought about the why of that. But I think it's important because who wants to live their life for other people who wants to live their life on other people's terms investors stove really kind of self defeating way to look at the world. And also trying to explain your Sanphong the time, right? Because I think that is an expectation that something that people expect off accused immigrants. I don't know what expediencies how different George from your parents experiences, and I really like your approach because I think it's extremely important for us to share that responsibility with others and say that you owners of knowing people from other cultures knowing Americans other cultures should lie winning it, and not just those who are from culture, which may not be the mainstream culture. Absolutely. And I think also, you know, people can expect anything, right? Like people can expect you to explain that doesn't mean that you have to meet those expectations. Knew of choice of what it is. You wanna put out in the world. And the other thing is, they're always going to be people from culture, who loved to explain. Just like lived splaine's, so they can do that. That's great. And the people who wanna know, concerts, that out so talking about yawn experiences where says your experiences, deem. You see any similarities or differences, in terms of, how they approach being American is their definition different from yours. And if so, in what ways, and if it's similar in what ways once again, essay man. Look, see my parents approach to being American. I don't know. I mean I think that, you know, Americans love to talk about being America. Ryan Americans love to talk about the American dream all this, and I mean all Americans. Right. Like Americans of any race or religion who have been here for however many number of years, you know, somehow, there's this collective cultural, navel-gazing fascination with the idea of what it is to be American. But do you think that sometimes people do that especially immigrants being inside my experiences? They feel like they once they talk about the American dream somehow that's the pivotal moment when they have fully immerse themselves in American culture. And because if you ask me, I don't think about the American dream. He late everybody else around me makes a conscious effort to make me realize that I should think about it. I don't know if that makes sense you know, it doesn't make sense. I mean, I, for example, right now in certain fashion circles, like dresses, are really popular and there's a lot of discussion of over like ooh. Pray justice. Look, good on, do we wanna wear them doing not in some ways, I feel like the American like talking about the American dream is part of this very long friend of the formation of America. Right. Like America's still really in its early years. It's in the sort of, like second or third phase of its formative years. So we're still talking about all of these things that are kind of how to recreate a collective consciousness, right? Sometimes, I think they're very interesting comments. Sometimes, I think that like the American dream is more just this, like like an easy catchphrase, like, like an easy sort of thing to, like, tuck up heartstrings or something like that. That's how it but going back to your experiences with yours because we were discussing bad for what I interrupted you sorry for that. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about that lake. I think you will you talking about got bits experiences in the context of American dream. So my parents emigrated to America from Taiwan. They came here to grad school. I don't that they thought we will come to America and the American dream will be there waiting for us. That's in the left part of the United States. That's not the way that I think there are a lot of people here from other countries, who quickly see that Americans love to hear that, you know. And so when they're interviewed, or whatever, then they're like, I s I came from Albanian, I and I discovered the American dream, you know, shorted there. Of course, there are people in other countries where perhaps, they do talk about the American dream. I can't say for sure that, that doesn't exist anywhere. Right. But I think for them at the time it was more of a practical choice there weren't a lot of jobs in Taiwan at the time. And grad school was basically free in America back then. So they came, you know, I think my parents are kind of a weird, example, in the sense that they were content while on, but their families are from mainland China and so. I think they sort of felt like immigrants in Taiwan in a sense, also. You know, you do the few pot of the US now lake it ends up belonging here. Now give end it's Vince. I think people are endlessly adaptable. And I also think that for whatever reason we have this sort of light bittersweet, nostalgia about the concept of home. You know so even if you are percent who lives in a place where your ancestors of live forever. You're still going to feel that kind of live on my home is slipping away from me. It's changing these little bit. You know, these days, I don't know. I think it's something about like the way humans are wired in general, that makes us I feel that way about home. You know, I you more wind rebuttal on mood secure when it comes to sense of belonging in the US, do generally think that I'm someone who. It just feels pretty at home anywhere everywhere. I've been in the US. I've felt lecture was I love Los Angeles. I really think it's just the best city, but it is totally where I see myself women. But, you know, I yeah, other countries that I've travelled to I wouldn't say that I feel not at home there. But also, I bet someone could make the argument that might concept of home is worked because I'm like two generations removed from my actual homeland do you know. So moving onto your and say, because that's how you're seeing the good immigrant book. I was introduced DO writing essay, how to send your Studi jock about how important it is to live life. Unapologetic knee any college, an act of defiance butcher fought, I would make if a bit of background out what you were talking about in the s&p again, in the aftermath off two thousand sixteen elections in home, you were scared and you felt other, but then you were like, you know, this is not something that you should be feeling. So getting a little bit about that. You know, I think it was it was a sense that I had never felt can have other in America. I mean that's not quite true. Right. Like, of course, I've been aware of the fact that I am in some people's eyes other, but I think just as a chore like personality, trait, I would. Wooded say that ever made me feel like I was actually less than them or that I was vulnerable in some way. It's just not the way that I personally am wired to approach the world. You know, but after the two dozens of election of on bookstore and I was in Austin, and I was driving to Dallas and UPS Waco on the way from Austin, Dallas, and anyone in America, who's probably guess, over twenty years, old friendly where of Waco in the big standoff there and all of that. So that town definitely has place, the American imagination as just a you know, scary. This with militias and guns and everything. And I was driving. And I just I woke up that morning really feeling like, oh my God. Maybe this country has just changed. Like maybe this is a different world. Now I had to pull off in Waco to fill up to get gas. I just remember being really wary of everybody that gas station and it truly was just all these giant trucks were there and I couldn't get my credit card to work. I'd go into the actual building. And as I walked up, I really felt scared in a way that I just had really experienced before you nose day time. It was the streets were busy. It was like it's not a situation where I would normally feel scared, but I really did. And I opened the door in the cashier was probably the Middle Eastern. I don't know exactly where his from. But definitely another Brown. I looked at each other with just dislike total relief on both of our faces. I'm used so clear that was what had happened when looked at each other? We're like, oh my God. It's you. Okay. You. Don't have to be scared of you. And but it was. But yeah, then as I was driving away. I really felt so bad. I just felt like that's ridiculous. I'm not going to allow this time to change the way I feel about my place in this country and to the essay really grew from that when we look at two thousand sixteen elections, people have changed, and they've late most of us have in some way, you get to put it into action than we are doing things. Whether it's at resume or whether it's activism, in some other form are, like, writing S's like you doing at creating a podcast own one evidence. But do you think it's something that what would we don't recognize we don't want to admit is that what happened? He would have sixteen elections is in on off what has been fought yet, decided to for a long time. Absolutely. Yeah. And so how do we read? Consign with that, drew. Oh, yeah. I think that's absolutely true. You know, I wasn't surprised like I was scared in shocked in a way when when I woke up that morning. But I totally thought there was a chance that Trump would win. You know, I'm not blind to the braces on that is that underlies like a lot of American institutions. A lot of things in this country in some way, I do think that, that is the good thing that has come out of absolutely. No is the fact that it isn't something that can be hidden anymore that it's a bad that were forced to discuss that were forced to face that were forced to find solutions for all we can do is be as unafraid as possible in facing an I don't know if you've seen that with immigrant communities that you interact with at. Dog? But what I realized is that as immigrants, and I've said it diamond again. We when we come to the US, we just decide that we act like guests, we don't assert ourselves politically. We don't disturb ourselves. Socially, we come here for college. And then we raise at gates, we give them good education. We pay taxes, but then we don't want to raise voices. We don't want to talk about injustices that happen. True. I just opened. That's true. I think that, yes, that exists, right? Like, there are a lot of people in immigrant communities who, who asked that way. Who's in click don't rock, the boat LeMay. Just get through college make some money, do it came to do. But I think that, you know, a lot of the on the ground activism is definitely led by kids who. Ashore, I think a lot of probably offers generation, but yeah, many of them are from immigrant, I think that's way the differences. I think Christianity actions taken generation because for them send off belonging much stronger, and I think for them this this notion off, this is their country. Embiid is no other country that big input would fall back on. And I think when I talked about immigrants I am specific rocking about immigrants not finished, second gen and that's why I bought the blame our communities for this other notion because if he act like others than we would need it like others. I have friends whose kids are fist jam and they are Betty active politically em, some of them are like teenagers, and they the gigli active in against gun violence against other injustices. But when you look at it, I. I still think that biscuit, participate as much why the question also is, when did they immigrate, right? Like I think someone who when they were five is to have a very different experience than someone who came. They were twenty five. Yeah. Yeah. In a very different feeling about being in this country about whether or not, they feel a desire to commit to change in things in this country. Yeah I mean I totally a situation where if I like if I fell in love with someone and move to France, but it was now you know what? I mean. Then would I feel a desire to take part in any of the protests there? Maybe not like maybe I would feel like well my country, you know, her all I wanna get. I don't know. But yeah, I don't I don't know. Most of my friends who are immigrants are people who came when they require y'all. So I would say that their experiences really are berry similar to my dog abodes in your both binds is. The would and this lady got up to you. And she says, oh, this is set in Bella uninsured. Not, I'll valley, it should have. Now's that's where where the Chinese reside. And seems that people in order to preserve then would view their into question. Matting bad, John stress from what Lyndon sitter to be dinar, right? Absolutely. And and I remember reading that it really bothered. You can you talk a bit about that expedience. I guess my term would be more that I was just very incredulous issue. That's what would be so unimaginative of the they would think that the way they see the world is the only way that the world could possibly exist. So what happened was, I was at a literary event. It was a fundraiser for a library. And so we were seated at these tables for this luncheon. This woman has done next to me into, like I don't understand why your book really should have been set in San Marino. And she said it was real kind of like friendliness, and I truly did not understand what she was saying at first into San radio is community in Los Angeles area, where a lot of wealthy Chinese people live, you know, in the Finally, I was like, oh, you mean 'cause there's a lot of rich Chinese people in San Marino. She's like, yes. That's where they are. They're not in. Belair erin's. Ed Marino, and rink couldn't be one rates Janis family. Bentley. I mean, I understand if I had perhaps written BelAir, as this community, that was just like full of hundreds of rich Chinese people will sure that's not quite true. Like I'd understand that argument there, but I just wrote this one family, and they can live anywhere. I love the Dade when we are. John's fomative shift in our politics in our overall value system. And we've talked about this in some ways, we have the grand and as you pointed out, but in other ways, it's a blessing because we see more activism. We see be confronting issues that would not confronted before. But how do we as individuals and as a site in community counterbalance, the undermining off divers semitic because I feel that something that's under the Dag. I don't want to sound dramatic. But that's how I will think there's a lot of different levels to this. Right. I think there is kind of what you do in the day to day in your kind of interpersonal relationships and infamy with that it is, you know, no longer being willing to kind of make other people feel comfortable when they say something or do something that does betray with centrally like an underlying racist way of looking at the world giving Giampa. How would you do that? Hey, here's an example, that if this friend listens she should just know that I do not think shoes at all terrible person. But it is a good. Hanging out with some friends, and one of the camera, whether she mentioned, the title of my book or whether she mentioned by last name, you know, my last name is chain title. The book is the wings versus world. It's very easy to confuse the two. I don't think it's a big deal at all. Honestly, it would be like, if someone who has white wrote a book where, you know, the book title was tellers in their last name was Williamson like it's not it's not a big deal. Right. Like it makes sense. It's too similar words. And so she flipped the two and then she was like, oh my God. I'm so sorry. That was so racist of me. I'm really sorry. And, you know, I think in times past I would have been like it's five. It wasn't racist. You're totally fine. But instead, what I said it was actually. No, that wasn't racist of you. In fact, what is racist is the fact that you think that is raise, you know that a Chinese last name would be somehow so different from any other more. European last name, that it would be somehow more of an insult inflec- that joke that gets total out where you see this on a lot of kind of like woke American succumbs Elmer on is like a Mexican that the other person's like dogs say that, that's too, you know, they're like, no, no. I'm actually from Mexico you drink. Isn't it more bothersome when people patronize you, I just don't want anybody to patronize? Yes. Sure. And so I just feel like you know, that like sort of being willing to make someone who you love uncomfortable for a moment is something that I would have been less willing to join the past a now am totally open to doing all the time. You know, big, I'm not saying like you suck in your temple person. I'm saying, hey, look at what you're doing and think about it for a moment and reconsider it. So I think on a personal level that is the difference. And then I think on, on a larger level a lot of it is just being willing to put in the time in terms of like donating to political candidates in not in the presidential race. You know, who are like running further smaller offices being willing to actually join a protest in like that don't have necessarily like an immediate large results. But that are the things that actually ended up moving the needle, what is the one? Most shocking thing, people have said to you about your book on about your essay. I mean, honestly, don't even shop. Manny more. But I kind of love doing is lose discussions, you know with my friends who have bugs out who are white who don't get these comments at all. But, you know, I mean they get other like everyone is going to get some kind of crazy comment about their book. I mean, most shocking, I don't know. You know, the the had a center, your own story, essay, definitely has a few of those in there, I gave a talk at a place that I love. So I will allow it to remain anonymous. Or the wealthy patrons of this place. You know when you come a fancy of his private club was like beautiful Lungin served at the end of my talk. I was kind of led around, like meet of his donors. And one of them was this woman who had been looking at me with such, like love in her eyes to kind of any white oriental bit. Remember that, you know? Very pretty innocent looking at deceptively. So. And you know, when those introduced to her she was like, oh, Honey, you know, that was that was amazing. I love to talk so much. She were so Dora in German. And you know, it was like, if I closed by is I could just think that you were a normal person. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Those pretty good. Yeah. Oh my. Oh, wow. I am seriously speechless right now. It's a Mike. I only know what did you say to her? Like you said something like you know, in that situation, I knew how much money all these people. It wasn't that. I was like, oh, you can buy your way out of anything. But also, I was like, well, I don't want to mess up for this institution. I think like if it had been on stage, for example, I would have said something I kind of let that go, but I said, something like, none of us are normal, not even you or, you know, something like that in the it, sorta jokey appointed by, you know, you know, it's so interesting because I was talking to one off my friends yesterday. Emmy will talking about tile even throw divers city organizations or what have you. They have issues with diarrhea team chur. And she brought on thing video important. And I, I had not really thought about it as much and she said, like, even if you listen to NPR, which I listen to very diligently, and you will hear late Lakshmi Singh. She doesn't have an accident. So the point being. That a person like me, who has an accident. You won't me are person like me on radio. You're talking about this, this whole incident. I'm assuming she meant that. You don't have an accent. You know, that's interesting. I, I actually never even thought about the accent, part of it. I just assumed the top was about. It was it was like a kind of jokey, but serious like a fun yet moving thing about, like how to write a novel. So I just assumed that she meant more like you could have been white with my eyes closed. But you're right. She probably did me also because I did have because in his mind, you sound night, and embezzlement lake what she was trying to end that talks he was, complimenting you at events. What happens they for me? Like my accent, just the way it say is she? She wasn't born on these tier at. And again, what we see because we don't normalize different accents. We don't eat ring people with different accents, so mainstream American population. Somebody who sounds like maybe you would be more normal than from zoning night me. Me true. Yeah. It's real. You know, honestly, that was one of the reasons that I wanted to make sure that I don't love writing in an accent. That's why I wanted to give the father in the way like a pretty distinctive accent and slightly in properties of grammar, etc. Because I just really think that like an accent is a Mark of accomplishment. It means that you speak more than one lane. English is not dominated language. So the way we write emiss-. I mean it isn't accomplish us. And I'm sure that if I was somebody to speak would do fluently, they wouldn't. And because that's not bad language. So you'd absolutely right. Important to introduce that. Because everytime we talk about accents. I think in specially in means stream media. We talk about it in a disparaging way making fun of somebody either. That's one hundred percent why I wanted to be like, okay using this accent. Sounds ridiculous. But this is someone extremely accomplished and extremely capable who just happens to not care exactly what he's out. Exactly. Sajid, if you will. Yes, cry because I asked all my guests this question, and I get interesting on Susan. I'm hoping that one day, I just combined all those on Susan, you know, make it into auditing. I don't know what, but if you were to decide Medica in one word, what would that be? Oh boy. Hope you honest, the first word that came to mind was just big. I mean yeah, that's what it is. I mean, I think like on the Asli it is geographically large around in a way that I have come to appreciate more more. I've in there is a while right out of college where all I wanted to do was travel in other parts of the world, which I was lucky to get to do a lot of, and then heighten the past five years, or so, I have traveled around America, a lot more. And, you know, you somebody amazing things to say and then also I do feel like America's ambitions are bid, and I don't mean it a manifest destiny sense, though, I guess, that is kind of what lines it that there is, you know, a school of, like think big that not that it doesn't exist at all in other countries. But then America likes to think is very American in. Do you think something's Stu America's own detriment Justice? This notion of think banks. Maybe I'm not sure yes or. No. I mean, I think that. I just think it's hard to talk about any thing, even though I often want to talk about sort of, you know, the American consciousness like what we think in this nation. It's era. I also think that because we are so big. There are so many different worlds here. There are an equal number of people who are like being small be careful don't get get a job, you know, all of that stuff like that sort of exists equally food we end on interview I would might to want to rapid fire around, so I some run questions could end. Yeah. And you feed a feed through on just taken a word or maybe a sentence. They don't have to be long onces Hayworth, if you could eat one food for the rest of your life. What would it be same rate of Bill? If you could only take three things through deserted island, what would they? On very tactical. So my briefings would be like a Flint. You know, like something that lets you light fire like a backpack full of emergency supplies. Yeah. That could be one thing. Yeah. Snickers programming. Yeah. And just it would be terrible to be there football. Yeah. Be too. Mean to you think bucket list, I would love to learn how to scuba dive. I'd love to see the Northern Lights to go to Arkansas. Yeah. That's interesting. So it's all travel related most of it. Yeah. I guess they're all like experience related. Yeah. And your biggest failure so far. You know, doesn't interesting question. I feel like maybe I don't think about life in those terms. I'm not trying to hide telling you about any failures or mistakes that I've made, I can't really think of I think it's, it's a great approach to life. Why define anything as Fady, right? Everything teaches us something your biggest achievement so far. I'm not very good at these sort of best of questions. Also break the by. But I think things in terms of greatest achievement either I will say, I was recently of. At this Tuva. Commune basically, is kind of our project, kind of a commun-, but in order to eat the cabins that we were staying in you to chop your own, firewood. And I've tried to chop firewood before, but I've never been able to. But I had no choice this time. And I actually wielded a giant axe chopped up a bunch of firewood, and I really is maybe the most published I've ever felt that isn't achievement. It absolutely is. I would not be happy doing that do I mean, I would feel so proud of my Sanford, let's be suffice. You ever got a few years ago, I was going through a break up on Sunday to a friend of mine on the phone upset at something. I honestly can't remember what I was upset about it. You know, wasn't something enormous. And I knew that. But by friends said, oh, you know, these things are. All about your ego. Like you're upset because your egos wounded, and I know that, that really is kind of a, you know, like a psych one, one thing, but I think because she said it to me at that moment, I it just really hit me. And I actually I think I've found it very helpful when forward not just in romantic relationships. But I kind of why I don't get particularly upset when people say crazy shit, you know, legend feel like it has no affect on the core of my being at all. It has no effect on my treselle on who I am in the world. The only thing that could be upset by that is, is my. Yeah. So your, your ideal Gatien, I think we all have an honest without, but. It's of vacation. Yeah. Definitely, you know, doing things outdoors being some really beautiful. You know, your favorite emoji. I use the sparkle heart of law is a lot. My sister. She has a lot. Yeah. I just think it's so cute. Also, even though I have to admit, I don't really like cats in real life because I'm very allergic to them. I do really like the emojis. That's a cat with a little tear me. Are you a TI person are coffee Bruce t I'm anti caffeine? Oh but but d- had some caffeine. Right. We about drink herbal, Tom, I, I'm from Pakistan. So I have to have either black tea like I can AfriC six. Scott's a day or more. I have. So I on caffeine. Yeah. Home is home is everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. I would like to think that thank you so much. This was wonderful. I had so much fun guys. These checkout Jade's, both banks is the world. You can also check it. Essay in the good, immigrants USA. It's an amazing essay, that's how I found her. And you should all support both her box. Also, thank you so much for supporting my podcast for subscribing, Juliette. We have a few on account if you want to check out our website is WWW dot eating conical, pod dot com. These stay tuned by next episode when we will bring you another immigrant story. And in the meantime, stay connected.