Trump mocked on stage by errant satire presidential seal
The show we nine eastern on M._S._N._B._C. Happy to have you hear anybody who tells you. They know what comes next anybody who tells you they know how things are GonNa go. From here. On out is wrong. I mean they might end up accidentally being right but I mean to the extent that anybody is expressing any certainty to you right now about what's going to happen next. That person is wrong to be so certain because what we are going through right now. As a country is unprecedented which literally means we have not done it before which means there is no previous experience to extrapolate from that might give us a hint as to where this is going next I mean even when it comes to just the the basic fate of this presidency as of this morning you might have seen the national headlines these super sober super sure headlines about how we know anything about the impact of the Robert Mueller testimony yesterday is that it definitely didn't move the needle one one bit on the question of impeachment if if it did anything it convinced Democrats once and for all that they definitely aren't going to pursue impeachment it killed that off forever I mean those were the headlines All over the papers today as of this morning morning as of this afternoon. Oh look there's five new members of the House of just come out to in favor of an impeachment inquiry including Katherine Clark who is in the Democratic leadership. You might have seen also initial reporting boarding today about how Democrats held a meeting in the wake of Molars testimony and at that meeting they decided that you know they would stick to the same old plan and the dynamics among the Democrats would stick to the same old script same dynamic. If the Democrats have been in for months they definitely won't pursue impeachment proceedings against the president no matter what they don't even want to plan for it no way it's done in fact further detailed reporting about that same meeting later today suggests that what the Democrats were really doing at that meeting was was for the first time talking about the nuts and bolts step by step chronological logistics of how exactly they would do it if they were GonNa do it. Including basic questions like how exactly they're impeachment articles would be conveyed to the U._S. Senate if the House did in fact pass articles of impeachment and it was time to move onto the next step. That's the kind of stuff that they were talking about which is not at all the same old page they were stuck on before so all of this this sort of instant sage punditry an instant news analysis in the world. That's trying to be very reassuring now. Don't worry nothing will change. Everything is the same we know exactly how this is all going to go from here on. I mean I understand the sort of impulse to be soothing. I understand the impulse to broadcast that sort of thing. I think it's sort of feels good particularly in the beltway press but the facts on the ground do seem to be shifting much faster than that kind of tut-tutting analysis has been able to keep up with even in just over the course of today now. Let me just give you one other sort of case study from our current news cycle that if nothing else should persuade you to keep your mind open to the possibility of something something deeply really weird happening at any time that should close your mind only to the possibility that there's somebody out there who knows what happens next. I mean we are living in deeply weird times. This is deeply weird. Presidency things that touched this presidency ascendancy things that happened around this presidency particularly in times of stress. They have an almost other worldly propensity to go weird. Even if they start off normal I mean and that's not necessarily a good or bad thing. It's just weird for example. This is my case study. Do you know what the president did the night before Robert Muller's testimony we know the president appeared to be a little stressed out about Muller's forthcoming testimony. He was tweeting angrily that day in that night about the logistics of the Muller Hearing and the fact that Muller's deputy was going to be there. That's not fair. Very unfair should not be allowed. I mean we know that the president was very wound up about it. The night before. Most testimony happened happened well. What does he actually do? The night before. Muller testified turns out he had a public event. He spoke to a right wing youth group and I think that you would probably not seen this footage. I mean maybe were statistically speaking. I'm guessing you are not a member of a right-wing youth group watching me right now. Although if you are welcome to stay but we've got the tape and it's sort of I just I think this is remarkable. Thing sort of a crowds I view of what it was like to be in the audience of that right right wing youth group on Muller Eve awaiting the ONSTATE onstage presence of the president of the United States that ambition was unmistakably prevalent in Young Donald DNA. He apparently apparently love military school. He likes to kind of out front. I think competitiveness of it there were so many different ways that you could excel and get medals and Ribbons Donald Trump thrived rising in rank and he was socially popular popular with men and women he also gravitated towards sports or rather winning and sports so this is the right wing teenagers group. It's like a pro-trump youth group and they're watching this hype video about how how Donald Trump was such a popular boy with both boys and girls and he had such good DNA and he was always winning and everything he got so many ribbons and stuff this goes on for a long time. This is a long hype video ultimately they get to the part right after this kind of trying to give like an exciting war movie vibe to the room and so I'm going to show you this expert. I'm just GONNA stop talking here for a second so you can see and hear what this was like for the trump youth group also just keep in mind this this is the kind of event the president of the United States is doing now and then there's everybody goes crazy and he start throat President Donald Trump's throbbing on the screen and the COG. It's all hyped up and then they get hyped as they possibly silhouette. He's the president walks out onto the stage see. I told you could get even weirder than you thought they could get but wait. This is even weirder than you think it is because this is what the event looks like once he finally gets going okay. Okay you see there's like the throbbing name there to the right see. There's a presidential seal their presidential seal their right with his name then there's another presidential seal on the left side. Your screen is we're looking at it the one with his name over it. That's the seal of the president of the United States on the left side of the screen. Do you notice that one looks a little bit different. Washington Post was hers to report on this. I'm not sure how long it would have taken anybody else to notice that this happened. How many other people were looking at this footage right but turns out? There's a guy who runs a website called one term Donnie. He has an anti-trump website. You can buy like anti-trump merchandise and posters and t-shirts or whatever that guy designed a trump specific satirical version of the seal of the president of the United States okay for comparison purposes. The real one is on the left. This is the one that was projected underneath the president's name at that event the one that was projected on the other side of the screen behind the President Esi prowled the stage at this trump youth group event the night before Muller's testimony. That's the one on the right. There are subtle differences first thing look at the head. You'll notice in the trump won. The Eagle has two heads instead of one. It's pretty much exactly the two heads from these state seal of the Russian Federation the two headed did your now look down at the feet of the double headed Eagle on the real seal you see on the right. That's the towel one of the Eagle holding thirteen Eros representing the thirteen colonies in the seal that was shown behind the president on Muller Eve. It's a little bit hard to tell first glance what that is you can tell it's not arrows in terms of the one term Donnie website merchandise producer. He describes what's in the clutches of that Eagle there as quote little Deng Don's child sized set of golf clubs for those tiny tiny hands no arrows tiny Gulf ups in the eagles other little talent where from the real seal you would expect to see the Eagle holding and olive branch the trump specific seal is instead holding a bunch of cash and then there's two other alterations. I will draw your attention to one is the shield sort of the breastplate for the Eagle on the real presidential seal that breastplate is red and white stripes down below and Bluefield up top on the one that was designed specifically for trump and that was projected behind him for his Muller Eve trump youth appearance. There's still the red and white stripes on the bottom but the bluefield above the red and white stripes is a little different CEO. What's got those little icons? They're those hammer in sickles like from the Soviet Union right. I mean just in case. The two-headed Eagle from the seal of the Russian Federation was not on the knows enough. It's the hammer and sickles and then the last alteration Asian you should notice as the words written on the banner over the Eagles head on the real presidential seal of course it's E.. pluribus unum out of many one motto of the United States on the trump specific presidential seal which again the president stood in front of for more than an hour the night before Muller testified that one actually says forty five S. T. Terry T. Terry. That's not Latin that Spanish and it means forty five is a puppet now. This does not seem to have been an anti trump trump trick or hack. It wasn't like a rogue projectionist at the Marriott in D._C.. Is as trump was speaking to this trump youth group. This does seem to have just been a thing that the trump right wing youth group got wrong. They accidentally did that but that up there and apparently the White House advance operations are sufficiently poorest that this sort of thing can just happen and who knows blame the US I mean he was stayed in front of that thing for more than an hour the guy who made the one term Donnie website. Website like anybody who tells you there aren't wrinkles in the universe or unexpected hazards or opportunities ahead is just not being honest about how exactly weird this moment is an the American political life. I mean listen that can happen involving the president in person and his adoring teens I mean anything can happen. Particularly anything can happen in the wake of the jarring claims that were made about the president and his behavior by the special counsel in those seven hours of televised hearings yesterday from your testimony. Today I gather that you believe that knowingly accepting foreign assistance during the presidential essential campaign is an unethical thing to do and a crime and a crime and what about total exoneration did you actually totally exonerate the president well now in fact your reports expressly states that it does not exonerate the preser- it does so it's rare to say the president tried to protect himself by asking staff to falsify records relevant to an ongoing investigation I would say that's a jeff summary Okay but the could you charge the president with a time after he left office. Yes you believe that he committed you could charge the president nine states with obstruction of justice after he left office yes now directly muller. Can you explain in plain terms what that finding means so the American people can understand understand it well. The fighting indicates that the president was not the president was not scoping exculpate skull paid for the ACA he allegedly committed presumably the Russians could record that conversation could they not yes and so we have candidate trump was saying I have no dealings with the Russians. The Russians had a tape recording they could expose could not yes. That's the stuff of counterintelligence nightmares. Is it not yesterday's testimony by Robert Mueller was so blunt and so unequivocal and at times so simple I think it would be hard to expect that testimony to not sort of knock this new cycle upside the head regardless of whether we can predict or not predict how it's going to affect this presidency in the long run but I mean I mean just bluntly to the extent that presidents have been impeached in the past for committing crimes for enabling and going along with the commission of crimes and for lying to cover it all up I mean Robert Muller bluntly and unequivocally testified yesterday that yes president trump did all of those things trump campaign officials built their strategy their messaging messaging strategy around those stolen documents generally true and then they lied to cover it up generally. That's true blunt testimony like that about the sitting president of the United States is not off the sort of thing that tends to evaporate into the ether and now couple that today with this new sixty seven page report that has just been released on a bipartisan basis from the Intelligence Committee in the United States Senate now Robert Muller yesterday was at his most passionate and honestly his most coherent when he was articulating the scale of the Russian attack on our election. It's intentions implications how serious this was as a threat to our democracy. He said over all the things he has dealt with in his career. This is one of the most serious threats he have as he has ever seen to our country. Remember he was F._B._I.. Director in the immediate wake of nine eleven well now immediately in the wake of his testimony here today. Surprise is the Senate Intel Committee reporting unequivocally that that they have looked into this in detail and they agree with Robert Mueller. There can be no doubt about what happened here from page five of the report quote Russian government affiliated Cyber Actors conducted an unprecedented level of activity the against state election infrastructure in the run-up to the twenty sixteen elections. I mean even over the course of those two hearings. Yesterday you heard Republicans become less able to keep a straight face while questioning or denying the Russian attack attack happened or that. The Russian attack was any big deal. I mean it was poor. Republican Congressman Tom McClintock from California at the morning session yesterday who started off trying to say he didn't believe all the social media manipulation stuff run out of Russia from the Internet Research Agency Agency. He didn't necessarily believe that was necessarily even from Russia. Kenya prove it I mean that was a very strange assertion by congressman McClintock particularly because he's from California right like you sort of think that maybe he might they have trouble with that when he goes home I mean I guess he's going to say that. There are Internet research agencies everywhere. There was just the Saint Petersburg franchise. Maybe they could have been running that stuff out of Indonesia office. I don't know I mean that was that was not in the morning but by the afternoon noon even the Republicans on the Intelligence Committee. Some of them were paying lip service to the fact that yes what Russia did was bad and yes. It was serious and yes. Maybe we OUGHTA start. Think thinking about how to how to stop that from happening again well that's yesterday and then today this bipartisan hi partisan report from the Senate Intelligence Committee hopefully will help Republicans get over whatever this tacit directive they've received from the trump White House that they should all pretend that Russia didn't do what it did but there's there's a couple of things that I think are worth noting about this report over and above its emphatic attic public conclusion that Russia attack the election in an unprecedented way and one of the things I think worth knowing about this report is just how freaking redacted it is. I'm not sure we expected the the intelligence agents committee's report on Russian interference to look like a barely unsealed indictment set aside like a whole big chunk of my day today I was like we've got a sixty seven page single-spaced report plus lots of footnotes to get through GonNa leave myself time. You really get through that not really it's more like a coffee break read. It's all under black boxes. It's all blackout. They all pages look like this. I mean presumably these reductions are at the behest of the intelligence community. I don't know but this is a serious toner investment for your printer. If you'RE GONNA print it out I mean here. Let me just show you an example. All this is page twenty eight of this report from Senate Intel you see the heading naming this section of the report. It's a whole section of the report titled Russian efforts to Research Voting systems processes and other elements of voting infrastructure and then the whole first paragraph is redacted and the whole second paragraph rejected the third paragraph redacted in the fourth paragraph in the fifth paragraph in the six pair. That's the end of the section okay. The whole thing is redacted wait. There's one sentence in the whole section in the whole section there that is not redacted that we the public are allowed to see what does that sentence. The sentence is is quote. It is unknown if Toront- Sauve attended the events yes. I've googled Toronto off now. I have no idea but were allowed to know that one thing what are the event who's Toront- solve this important. Why is this less important than the stuff behind the all the other paragraphs in that section all the everything else in that report about the Russian government casing voting systems and the elements of our voting infrastructure researching them trying to Suss them out? We're not allowed to know any of that even as the Senate Intelligence Committee moves to make this report public so that's I mean that's. I don't think what was expected from this report. It's intriguing. It's sort of frustrating depending on your mood but even with all of these myriad reductions the Senate intelligence report does make a few very sobering assertions including confirming publicly that Russia attacked the election unprecedented scale and breath but also including in no uncertain terms that the Russian attack included Russia successfully accessing assessing and stealing voter information from voter registration databases in the states like the actual voter registration databases that are used by the states for us to vote in the presidential election in at least at least a couple of instances they broke in it was successful and they got that data and again a ton of the descriptive stuff in here is blocked out. We can tell reading between the black boxes. I think the committee is telling us. At least two states had their voter information cracked the Russians were the hack not only succeeded but they got the data. We also get lots of information about how unnamed individual states didn't believe it when they were warned about these attacks by Russian government cyber actors the individual states again. They're not named their number two states but after time and time again one after another they deny that they these attacks were any big deal state after state refuses government help when it was offered to them that is not heartening and so at this this sort of typically weird moment where I do think that kind of anything is possible in terms of where the new cycle is going next number. This presidency is going next. Do have to say that the only place that kind of feels like it might be a real catbird seat for this weird moment in American life might be if you had a seat on one of the intelligence committees that seems like an excellent place to observe what's going on in our country right now and the most interesting things about it because let's say you're on the Senate Intelligence Committee presumably that means you can read need all of the redacted stuff in today's report and you can you can find out what's actually there because you're cleared to read exactly how the Russian attack was and how it worked and how far they got into how many different states and which states it was that blew off the warnings and let the Russians in denied there was any problem presumably that would also let you as a member of the committee read how far we have advanced since two thousand sixteen towards stopping Russia from doing it in the next election as well since both the F._B._i.. Director and the former special counsel are now warning US explicitly that they have every intention of doing it in two thousand twenty as well. I mean do the thought experiment right. Let's imagine it's close election. In Two thousand twenty can't possibly imagine it's going to be close election. What if it comes down to hand recount in one state and the presidency is on the line based on that recount that could never that happened two thousand Florida right then it turns out as we're doing that hand recount and the whole country is riveted? Whatever never stated is turns out? That's one of the states where Russia didn't just probe in prod they actually access. They actually got their hands on all the voter data from that state now the question arises in the country as we're wondering to find out what's going to happen this recount. Mhm Russia got in there. Did they mess with any of that voter data. Did they corrupt it that they tilt it in one direction or another. How would we know if they did what would that due to our ability as a country to trust the results of something as sensitive as a recount don't or even just account in the first place that might determine whether or not donald trump gets four more years in office? If you were on the intelligence committee you'd be able to read the whole report. Also if you're on the intelligence committee you would be a a unique position because of your oversight role for the intelligence community. You'd be a unique position to get the real story the real dirt perhaps behind the work that Robert Muller said yesterday he and his team did not do one of the most fascinating. Revelations from Muller's testimony yesterday was Muller talking about the compromise of potentially the president and members of his campaign the counterintelligence issues about foreign intelligence services and foreign governments compromising U._S. officials and other people the U._S. national life as a way of compromising our country. I mean as blunt as muller was explaining how members of the trump campaign and the president himself were compromised by Russia or might have been compromised by Russia because of their secret dealings with the Russian government which Russia knew about and they could leverage to compromise these folks and extort things from them and put national security at risk as blunt as he unexpectedly was about those things muller also said repeatedly that although those were huge risks and they did observe all the elements of compromise is in potential blackmail. They're actually wasn't something that has team worked on nine in our report we had virtually the Cadillac catera intelligence goals of so our investigation which were secondary to any criminal wrongdoing that we could find. I cannot get into that mainly because there are many elements of the F._B._i.. They're looking at a different aspects of that issue currently Kerr for instance since it was outside your purview your report did not reach counterintelligence conclusions regarding any trump administration officials who might potentially be vulnerable to compromise compromise or blackmail by Russia correct. Those decision probably were made in the counter the F._B._I.. On our intelligence section of the F._B._i.. would be part working on that. While are they still working on that. How'd how'd that go? They look into that stuff. I mean time and time again yesterday. Molar surprisingly answered questions about the potential issue of being compromised by Russia and how that risk attends to not just the president's campaign campaign but also the president and he described things time and again as being subjected investigation the subject of ongoing investigation things that were being looked at or were looked at by the F._B._i.. Counter intelligence matters things that were not being evaluated by his team. No No oh you need to ask the F._B._I.. You need to ask the counterintelligence section at the F._B._I.. And that was about you know not only wikileaks releasing all the stolen stuff that they got from Russian intelligence. It was not only about Donald trump junior communicating with wikileaks about that material cereal was not only about the extent of Mike Flynn's compromise with Russia as he was lying about his interactions with the Russian government while he was holding a very sensitive national security position in the U._S.. Government it also includes the basic question of whether or not the president is or was was compromised by Russia because of his hidden financial dealings with them that they could expose it anytime I mean apparently to the extent this stuff has been looked at. It was never a muller matter. It's an F. B.. I. Matter it was and is the F._B._I.. Matter in some cases he said explicitly it is an ongoing counterintelligence matter at the F._B._i.. Or presumably a matter otherwise for the intelligence community well the intelligence committees and House in the Senate have oversight over over the intelligence community. They're the only ones who do and now they have just been given an open door from Robert Muller inviting them to find out what is going on with those investigations because molar says yeah those are real investigations and those are serious real all national security issues for our country and you should ask the F._B._i.. About that the intelligence committees are sort of the only ones who were allowed to get those answers. They're the only ones allowed to know as far as I understand it well Senator Michael Bennett of Colorado's Colorado a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee. He released his own additional views that were appended to today's highly redacted intelligence committee report on Russian interference in the election. Senator Bennett is also a member of the Democratic Party in contention for his party's presidential nomination this year Senator Bennett join us next. Stay with us. Hi It's Katy Tur- WanNa keep up with M._S._N._B._C.. While you're on the go subscribe to the M._S._N._B._C. daily newsletter. You'll get the best of what you've missed during this unprecedented era of news text M._S._N._B._C. to six six eight six six to subscribe so there's this new sixty seven page report on rushing attacks on our elections that was released today by the Senate Intelligence Committee. It is very largely redacted but the last page the report page sixty-seven sixty-seven is different from all the rest you can see there at the top additional views of senators Harris Bennett and Heinrich. That's three Democratic senators on the Intelligence Committee California Senator Kamala Harris Colorado Senator Michael Bennett the two two of them are both running for president right now also New Mexico senator Martin Heinrich they all had something to say that they felt was not reflected in the committee's broader report but they are a little bit mysterious about what it is we do not endorse every recommendation in the committee's report and we share some of our colleagues concerns about the vulnerability that we face particularly at the state level were counties with limited resources must defend themselves against sophisticated nation state adversaries. We do not not endorse every recommendation. Tell me more joining us now Senator Michael Bennett member of the Senate Intelligence Committee Twenty Twenty presidential candidate Sir. It's great to have you here. Thanks for making time thanks for having me so you do not endorse every recommendation you the end Senator Heinrich and Senator Harris have set yourself a little bit off from the report and saying that what do you have a problem within this report that the other members don't things one. We need to make sure that we have a national response to this. I can't leave this just in the hands of counties like Broward county to defend themselves against Russian intelligence and and and an expect that we're going to be able to protect the country that was appointed of emphasis for us as much as anything else I would say which much more important about this report is that it was issued in with <hes> in a strong bipartisan way from the Senate Intelligence Committee and the conclusions that Russia attack this democracy in a very fundamental way is now unassailable in front of the American people and one thing that's not redacted in the report are the recommendations that are made about how we need to approach this going forward so I think it's a good piece of bipartisan work that takes very seriously this assault by the Russians on our democracy in terms of those recommendations obviously one of the things that's been sort of mind bending over these past couple of years as the extent of the Russian attack has become more clear and more firmly documented is that in the Senate under Mitch McConnell he really has not wanted to do anything not wanted to pass anything. He's block even consideration of bipartisan legislation to do anything to change the way that we run our elections to try to stop this from MHM happening again. Is there an expectation that since this is a bipartisan report since Chairman Chairman Burr as signed off on this that this might have been what McConnell was waiting for that he might allow some of these recommendations certainly hope so although <hes> just today he blocked two pieces of legislation from going to floor on election interference of by the Russians one of which would require candidates to inform the F._B._i.. When <hes> when there was interference from of foreign government the other one of which would supply resources to local government so as far as my count is that Mitch McConnell has blocked eight such pieces of legislation? Maybe this report will jar that loose but the other problem he he's dealing with at this. He's got a president who continues to deny that the Russians did this you know and in Helsinki stood next to Putin and took Putin's word on the world stage in Japan he he made a joke about this with Putin. I can assure assure you that are the people that produce this report. Do not think this is a joke. This is serious just like Western democracies all over Europe who are dealing with the fact that Russia's interfering in this way in their election so I think it's really important that our government and frankly our country have a strategic response to what Russia did in sixteen we still haven't responded to that as a country country and make sure that we're coordinating homeland security the F._B._i.. And local governments to do a better job making sure this doesn't happen again in twenty twenty one of them. Will it will happen again. We just need to make sure that were defending against Robert. Robert Muller was very clear on that last point yesterday saying it is happening as we speak it will happen twenty twenty they expect it. He was also Tamai to my mind. What was most striking to me about? Yesterday's testimony is how Blunt Robert Muller was about the issue of potential compromise about how people in the president's campaign did things and had financial entanglements that absolutely exposed them to being extorted or compromised by Russia and the president did to <hes> director molar then said that these are matters that were not within the purview of his report. This is stuff. That's been looked at or is being looked at by the F._B._i.. Made me curious as a member of the Intelligence Committee of somebody who has oversight over intelligence is that sort of thing that you will you and your committee will be able to pursue Muller's essentially saying that the F. B.. I've been looking into the question of the president being compromised by Russia. He didn't suggest that investigation is over. Well we know from the public record that there were numerous contacts between the campaign and the Russians Asians though president trump denied that over and over again it it's not true. I can't speak to what we're doing. <hes> inside the committee just wouldn't be right to do in terms of what the public doesn't ask you one last question. This is kind of what the report looks like today. It's uses a lot of toner. It's really really redacted. Are we the public ever going to see any more of this or is this all we're ever going to get. I don't know I think this is a negotiation between the committee and the intelligence community I do think which critical is at the public does know what we need to do as a country to respond to this not not just to protect ourselves but to punish people who do this to the United States of America the first step there of course is he's having a president who's willing to push back on tyrants that are attacking attacking the United States rather than coddling them and and a majority leader who could actually pass election protection legislation instead of blocking it from even coming up to a vote those would be important steps forward to being to being able to deal with this very real threat Michael Bennett member of the Senate Intelligence Committee Twenty Twenty presidential candidate. It's always a pleasure to have you hear grow to sue I appreciate it sir. Thanks very much all right. We'll be right back. Stay with us. Special Counsel Robert Muller was many things that his congressional testimony yesterday one of them consistently was terse which made for at. At times a hearing that was difficult to watch but there were a moments when even his terse answers came off as not just hearst but direct and unequivocal and very surprising given the provocative nature of the question that he was being asked. Could you say director Morello that the president was credible can answer that question director Merlo. Isn't it fair to say that the president's written answers were not only inadequate and incomplete because he didn't answer many of your questions but where he did his Asir showed that he wasn't always being truthful. I would say generally in a fair to say that the President Rip Presidents written answers were not always truthful I would say generally lying is a sin right. Thou shalt not bear false witness lying is also a pain in the but in a practical sense. If you tell lies you have to remember what they are forever which is an act of rote memorization that might just fail you someday and exposure as a liar. It's much easier to just tell the truth. You never need to remember anything but if you lied a federal investigators that is something more than a sin or pain in the but that's a crime crime when Robert Muller said yesterday that the president was not truthful in his written statements to federal investigators. That's a whole new problem we didn't have before and that's next garage rising anchored in your report you concluded that President trump and his personal council Rudy Giuliani quote made repeated statements suggesting that a pardon was a possibility for manafort while also making it clear that the president did not want Manafort to flip lip and cooperate with the government end quote is that correct and joining us now is congressman John Paul from Washington. She's a member of the House Judiciary Committee you saw her. They're questioning rob Roy Moore yesterday congresswoman. I really appreciate you making time to be here. Thank you it's great to be with you. Rachel first of all I have to tell you I've just been looking forward to talking to you about what you took away. From This Day of testimony your Co Chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus very outspoken on the rise member of the Democratic Caucus and recognize. I think by all sides is that not on the Judiciary Committee. You had your own chance to question him. What meant the most to you about Morris testimony? I think kind of the most important pieces were that he repeatedly basically said that the president was was lying on a number of things he was not completely exonerated he actually did have substantial evidence that the president <hes> committed acts of obstruction and we went through five of those in fairly granular detail and what Robert Muller or didn't say didn't really matter because what he did is actually validate everything that was MS report that we know most people haven't read and most importantly we know bill bar tried to mislead and lie to the American people and so as I was sitting thing they're listening. I just kept thinking about how the Republicans kept actually asking things and reading things that helped us because they when Ken Buck asked Robert Muller. Can the president be prosecuted after he leaves office he asked twice he seemed surprised by the answer. There were other times where they read parts of the March twenty-seventh letter. You know there were a number times when I thought the Republicans felt very scattered in their approach. I think that you noticed a big change from when they were with us to when they <hes> the the Afternoon Intelligence Committee hearing they were much more gentle in some ways with Robert Muller because I think they came across as looking very petty undermining the sky who has has a long history of credibility working for Republican president so to me. It was a really important groundbreaking moment because we were able to get a lot of things on the table that we knew that were there but the American people did not thought there was one of the reasons that particular wanted to talk to you. Tonight is because of your role on the Judiciary Committee. I wanted to ask you about something. That actually happened in the other committee hearing in the Intelligence Committee under questioning from Congressman Val demings there was like a Jaw-dropping Ping moment where she asked him. If the president had been untruthful in his written testimony to investigators in Director Muller said generally yes effectively that was the exchange to me that seemed like a very big deal particularly for your committee for the Judiciary Committee to have notice confirmed by Director Muller that the president was untruthful in his written testimony to to to federal investigators that seems to me like a pretty serious allegation of criminal behavior on the part of the president was wondering what you thought of the significance of that moment or am I reading too much into it. No I thought it was very significant but don't forget that he has committed a number of acts and that's what we confirmed throughout. I think vow demings questioning just confirmed armed another thing that we already knew which is that he is not generally truthful but that was true even in the acts of obstruction so if you look at the fact that he engaged in direct witness tampering the fact that he dangled a pardon the fact that he told many other people to lie the fact that he tried to get through Corey Lewandowski. He tried to get the special counsel fired. I mean these are all acts that anybody else does these things they would be prosecuted and so I think we ended each of our pieces with that and I think vows piece was the perfect capstone in some ways because this is a guy who is not truthful. None of the people around him are truthful. This is a campaign that was rife both with contacts lying after saying things didn't happen. Don't forget also that hope Hicks lied to us <hes> we are going to have hope picks back before the Judiciary Committee. She said she had no knowledge of the hush. <hes> hush money that president trump paid that turns out not to be true and so this is just a network of lies. The president is sitting right in the Middle Spinning all of these lies and everybody around him is helping him to just continue to cover up congresswoman formula Paul Democratic member of the House Judiciary Committee Co Chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. It is great to have you here. Thanks for being here. Thanks so much much much more had stay with US joining us now as a man who needs needs no introduction on this program and for whom you require no explanation as to what he's doing here N._B._C. News presidential historian Michael Beschloss. I have been so looking forward to talking with you my friend. Thank you very much for making time <hes> when you watch the Robert Muller testimony yesterday did it seem to you like that word that we all bandy about way too easily now. Did it seem like an unprecedented thing or did it resonate with with you as with other moments in American history it did resonate because you know you're looking at moments in which a special counsel testified or important witness like John Dean against against Richard Nixon in one thousand nine hundred seventy three so it was sort of like that but at the same time this was a special counsel being almost dragged in their Rachel against his will and the reluctance you could see on his face all the time but I think they're moments that will linger in one of them for is something I did expect which is when he was talking about the attack on our democracy and he said I fear this is going to be the new normal. That's something I think will be reading about in twenty years. One of the things that I think happened immediately upon Muller sitting down and starting to speak is that there was a lot of reaction to him as a human being to him as a man to his perceived sort of frailty the halting being nature of his speech. I think he's he's a public figure who hasn't broken in public in a long time. It's been part of the mystique around the special counsel and I do think that that was the instant impression that was hard to escape at the start of the hearing and then over the course of the day. You realize that whatever you thought about his affect he was actually delivering quite a ton of information a lot of quite blockbuster. I wondered if there's any sort of precedent for that or that. Sort of demeanor of a witness ends up being important or forgotten in the long run well this says T._v.. and to some extent that's the reason why these hearings were staged and the fact that he was so reluctant. I think probably to some extent undercut this. We can think of other people who've testified before Congress in situations like this who are a lot more leaguer in terms of the Watergate precedent. I was thinking about what you said about John. Deans famous testimony we look back on that forty five years later and we get these hot moments from John Dean these satellites where he says incredibly devastating things but but in fact in real time when Dean was giving his testimony it was reading like hundreds of pages of an opening statement that just went on for hours and hours and hours and hours with no interruption absolutely he was told not to use his contact lenses because it might make him blink so he got some old glasses and he was told by his lawyers to speak in a very low voice because he was going to speak for such a long time. They didn't want his voice to get raspy and therefore perhaps not as believable as it would be the way he did. One of the things that it seems to me is an important potential path from Muller's testimony is the issue of the president's finances. I was struck by the fact that eight minutes after the Muller hearings were gaveled to a close the president's lawyers they were in court filing an emergency writ to try to block his tax returns from being released. We've talked a number of times about how a historical it is that he's kept his tax returns from public. Did you sense that there may be more urgency around that issue now. Certainly the White House seems more urgent about it might well be and there's a historical parallel to that because in one thousand nine hundred seventy three Richard Nixon there was a leak from his taxes showed he had paid a thousand dollars in one thousand nine hundred seventy nine hundred seventy one and so therefore there was a clamor for Nixon Nixon to show why he had paid so a few dollars on very big income so he released his taxes nineteen sixty-nine to nineteen seventy-two i._R._S. looked at it so did the joint committee on taxation of the Congress. They felt that he had underpaid his taxes by about four hundred seventy five thousand dollars the diamond and the Chandelier here Rachel is that that committee also went to the I._R._S. and said these years are not enough we want Nixon's taxes also from nineteen sixty six to nine hundred sixty eight and the I._R._S.. Comply they do give up those tax returns now part of the argument and the and the courts for why the committee should be able to get trump's taxes too fast. Everything old is new again once again N._B._C. News presidential historian Michael Beschloss. Thank you Sir Great Davir. My pleasure always right back. That's going to do it for US tonight. I'll see again tomorrow. I'm Rosenberg my new podcast youth.