67 | Jack Wilborn, Law Enforcement Action Partnership (LEAP)
When laws are unjust they should be changed and when people charged with enforcing law point this out it's worth listening Jack wilborne represents the Law Enforcement Action Partnership or leap. He has arrested people for possession of cannabis about the consequences, too often life-changing and tragic ways leap is focused on moving us toward Federal action on cannabis laws jackass statistics and real life stories about the cascading effect of policing People based on unjust laws secure about the human cost of our outdated drug laws. They want to share this episode with your family and friends whether you're a subscriber or a first-time listener, please stop by and see us at can a boom with a K, We are focused on how can a bulb in CBD can help you achieve better wellness and importantly how to find CBD this trusted and reliable. If you'd like the podcast Please Subscribe and please leave a review. So other people can find the show and here's my interview with Jack will born Cannabis is booming. And Canada boom is on it. Welcome to the cannibal podcast where we interview experts on the changing story of humans health and Hound from San Diego. Here's your host Tom Stacy off. It's Tom, welcome back to the can boom podcast. Today. We're excited to speak with Jack will burn who is representing the law enforcement Action Partnership. Hey, Jack. Hi, how you doing? Really good big topic to talk about in terms of law enforcement and cannabis laws. And that's who you're representing is ex law enforcement officers basically represent lots of enforcement Factory. We are worldwide over twenty countries and we actually had one of the officers as the speaker Force. Sue the Royal Canadian Mounted Police because they've let him speak. So so he sued him and won so he's one of our speakers but we do have officers that are out, you know on the in the field. They do Speed most of our officers Agra tired because it is kind of time-consuming will tell us about leap and what the organization does. Well basically their mission is to unite mobilize the voice of law enforcement in support of policy and criminal justice reforms that make our communities safer by focusing law enforcement resources on the greatest threats to Public Safety promoting alternatives to arrest and incarceration addressing the root causes of crime and working towards healing police-community relations. We're also Envision a world in which criminal justice and Drug policies keep our community Thursday April ending the war on drugs and looking beyond the criminal justice system for range of solutions to address society's ills or ill Will's better protect human rights wage. Is violence and rejection and build better respect for and Trust in law enforcement. So in a nutshell, that's kind of what we're up. Well, that's a well-crafted statement. It sounds like a lot of people had input on that page. Yeah, so that's why I that's why I don't try to put it in my own nutshell cuz they did a very good job of it. Sure. So where the rubber meets the road? It's you guys sort of being off a Lobby for better drug policies. Well, we all do what we can some some people are supportive some people in life support office of legislative and let's work towards change in legislation of of things or or how prisons are run or how prisons are dealt with those are all part of the Criminal Justice Reform systems. So those are you know hand and leaps and interested in those also if that's where you're going to tell us how how you became involved in leap wow started when I woke. Rookie, and I was out and was an fto which is called the field training officer, you know you go through the academy and then they put you in the field for a few weeks and the birth sign the first time you're out there, you know, you're kind of seeing what's going on and then pretty soon the training officers giving you more of a load and eventually he comes out and civilian clothes off a new handle all the calls and that's pretty much how they tell if you're ready to have what we call Kar command or you can go out and be an officer on your own without having to be supervised so often happen to me. It was one of those situations where they want to know if you're you understand the traffic laws, so you have to stop everybody that violates a traffic law no matter what it is worth. Now. In this case, I pull over a kid that had a broken tail light after you know, the guy was real nice kids. Love real. Well his English was excellent and was really smart. And you know, I was just going to write him a Fix-It ticket and my fto caught a whiff of marijuana a turned out a little tiny roach under a seat and you know ended up arrested going to you know, getting a year in prison had a list of these course University just that were wanting to putting through it and of course he lost all that. So basically I trashed his life and you know, that's how I felt myself feel that today off. You know, that is not what I joined the police department to do. And when I got real sick about a decade and the working, you know, the internet started becoming more available and I started looking for other people that believe like idea that you know, the drug war was a hoax pretty much and you'll never stop it anyway, and so I found leap at a time which was a provision. But unfortunately when they started about 2003 they weren't really interested in the you know, the normal police officer there a big interest was pretty much in people have been twenty-five years the Gea and stuff like that which we do have now. We have people in DEA judges, you know, lots of people that worked in the criminal judge very criminal justice system and not you know, feel like we did that. This is a waste of people on money and everything. So your Epiphany was seeing how a minor infraction could blow up someone's life song. Otherwise law-abiding except for being a cannabis user. Well, he wasn't a cannabis user. I think that's the one thing that really stuck out is the roach was probably a quarter off a quarter inch long and it was under a c and you know, one of the things you kind of they frown on is if you follow these these things through to the end, but I was just a rookie and I wanted to know what happened and I actually talked to his attorney like I tested negative for Canaveral for metabolize. So he had not been using a credit that his friends had smoked and I'm you know, knowing how that stuff works. He probably picked it out the window ended up under seat. So he was not a user he had he got the full of the system and he paid for it the rest of his life. Yeah, that's tragic when you multiply that by three or four hundred thousand cannabis arrests a year in this country. That's a big story. Yeah it off. You know a lot of this is real sad, I mean, there's not any good views on it as far as you know, there's an attitude about drugs that we need to change and that attitude came from actually came from I think the Nixon Administration but you know, cuz most people think cannabis was as being Wonder was scanning outlawed originally. Well nineteen thirty-seven, I think was Harry anslinger with the Federal Bureau of Narcotics. That was the whole part. What was that called? Well, there was a marijuana stamp Tax Act. I believe in the late thirties. Yeah. So it was a Prohibition it was taxed, right? It did roll into prohibition, which you're right. I think Nixon really exacerbated that because there was research coming back. I mean Nixon basically commissioned research and it came back saying cannabis is not a bad thing, but he kind of doubled down on where we were at at that time, you know, Asking hippies as political enemies and wanting to incarcerate those people hippies and people of color and yeah that certainly lasted has lasted a long time and I'm we're we're still dealing with it. Yeah, what broke the camel's back on that really was. Dr. Timothy Leary, you know, he was caught coming across the border with a joint in Texas home and He ended up in court and went to the Supreme Court and he said, you know if I admitted if I bought the tax stamp, then it would be admitting to the state of Texas that I was off waiting or law. Which puts you in Double Jeopardy. So the basically a supreme court agreed with him and that basically kills the tax stamp. But Nixon took over and went along with the schedule system after that for reasons, you described right schedule one making it designated as a drug with no redeeming value medicinal value when we know that's not true anymore. Well, you know, the issue is you have to think about how our government works, you know, according to them. It has no medicinal value. Well, it's a turn of the 20th century the top three prescribed medications had cannabis in them. You know and so you ask why isn't this legal medication? And the reason it's not considered a medicine is because the FDA has to approve stuff to approve something to get it actually through the suggesting we have it has to be based on a single molecule on a single Target and of course, you know cannabis has plenty of molecules to hit funny at Targets which makes it virtually impossible to walk past with the message. We know we'd have to test the world to get accurate numbers. So that will never pass as long as we have separate molecules. It will never be an FDA-approved drug, but you can ask the same question, you know who invented drugs if they weren't drugs before nineteen was 1908 or whenever the Pure Food and Drug Act was passed. You know, so that's what made cannabis no medicinal value was because the FDA couldn't prove it leap has sort of been a Grassroots effort from law enforcement officers who have seen the Injustice of this and want to try to move us past that yes. Basically that's true. It's you know, if the bottom line is we saw this to be an issue now, we're on the front lines. We have boots on the ground, but nobody wants to listen. So in Practical terms, how do you make progress on this? Agenda? Well, you know when I last took a year, I spent most of the legislative session down talking to legislators, you know, trying to get them to understand that this is you know, not wage. Where are you? Jack? What state are you in Phoenix where I'm going? Actually I live in Peoria, but which is right next to Phoenix. Pretty much is cannabis legal in Arizona we had Medical marijuana only and simple. We're the only state that simple possession is a felony. Oh, wow. Are there still a lot of arrests taking place for that? Yeah, I can't remember what it was last year, but it's somewhere around 10,000 that's significant. Yeah, we have an initiative that hopefully will help it's on the ballot this November among active-duty police. Do you believe your beliefs would be in the minority or majority or what percentage of policemen do you think see cannabis as something that shouldn't be outlawed? Well, you know, I see more and more of them as I speak with more and more officers coming in. I don't know if they've you know seen it when they were in college or whatever but more and more Officers Club and seem to realize the futility of it. It's difficult to talk to officer. If you talk to him about you know how Prejudice it is and they boo hoo your way home. Yeah, most cops are prejudiced. It's just the whole mechanisms Prejudice. You know, it's not one particular are their presidents cops, of course, or they're not prejudiced cops. Most of them are not fringes but you know, the mechanism filters you and forces those kind of situations, you know, dr. Timothy Leary when he came across the border was was a joint was looking at ten years in prison and $50,000 or some crazy in though. So these are the these are the problems that we have and these are the problems we need to to resolve and overtime. What we've done is we've you know, basically thought everybody that if it's a drug as bad and you know, you compare it to other drugs that we we use and we have there's really no comparison to many of these drugs certainly as an enforcement officer. Your job is to enforce the statutes in the laws and I guess there's some latitude there in how aggressive you are. If you if an officer believes they smell some cannabis. They have the authority to look under the seat or in the trunk or all over the place. Right? Well actually one of the points I made the more than one legislator wage when I was an officer, you know, if I got a call for the smell of marijuana and I went out there and I could say it's coming from this house. I could just kick, it's Dorian you need the authority to enforce wage. Law, but and it's not up to you to decide if the laws just or unjust right you do your job. Well, well you yes or no, you know, sometimes you look up something you go. This would be loaded for us to do this. You know, it wouldn't affect it wouldn't change what happened. It wouldn't change what's going to happen in the future. You know, it's just in sometimes Overlook things because of that, you know, it's like a body camera. I'd love to have a body camera, but it's a two two bladed sword, you know, two edged sword because you know, if you say, yes, you'll see somebody that you might give a break to and somebody in a similar situation. You don't give a break to and so, you know, you can't do that anymore. Now, you can't give a break to anybody. You get what I'm driving at? Yeah, it takes the discretion out of it. You're always being monitored. So you have to be absolutely consistent and and not use your judgement boss. And and you know, I'm sure I overlooked drugs that you know, if I didn't feel, you know, I didn't worry about it. If I didn't feel there was a danger to the public, you know, that's who am I pretty much looked at most of police enforcement was if this is not a danger to the public I probably shouldn't be involved with it and you know, sometimes that conflicted with laws and when that happened I have to try to do what's what the legal law says. I mean, that's the bottom line of any Police Department the fallacy with that system is you know, what our police officer here for, you know, most people don't know what police or four and police are here to reduce crime. And the way you tell how effective a police force is is by how little of the police force you actually see because if they're suppressing crime, you know, seeing them. Unfortunately, we've kind of lost that view and now we're chasing things and we've made laws that are really moral and they're they affect what a person when a person uses a drug. That's something he does to himself. You know, we don't need to legislate that that's something that the that shouldn't be legislated. These are crimes against oneself or something and we don't need to throw somebody in jail cuz somebody that makes a mistake or whatever but we need to do is look at the law itself. And so does this something that doesn't hurt other people if it doesn't hurt other people then we shouldn't be enforcing it. You know, if you take a drug and it makes you where you can't drive and you drive while you're endangering other people you need be hooked and booked now, if you're taking a drive in your sitting at home doing whatever you're not hurting anybody. Why should you be prosecuted right? It's sort of a victimless crime. Yeah. Well, they made the victim to state are themselves, you know, and they've you know, they basically thrown out our Fourth Amendment, right? They've sunk our Bill of Rights with this War on Drugs. That's the main reason I'm against it. You know, that's what happened. You know, that's the end product of Brianna Taylor. Our was you know, we had these laws that allowed him to say. Well we saw her go there and then they took 12 search warrants to the same judge in less than fifteen minutes. She had signed him and had him back to the officers. And Brianna Taylor's was in that and there was no evidence at all that she was really involved in a drug usage. So, you know, it's these warrants they put drugs on it the judges go. Okay. This is a thing. We have a handle it came along with I think she called it present presumptive detention or are you familiar with that? No, I'm not. I can't remember the Saltzman or still a minute or something back in Nixon's error actually came up with a way to detain people and that was presumptive detention. And at that point if they had a drug, that means they were dangerous to everybody that had to be kept locked up. You know, that way they couldn't have people get you know arrest somebody had to go out and bail and continued they could keep them off for indefinite amounts of time. He's also the same guy that came up with the no-knock and associated with the group that wanted if you had three felonies you went dead president for life. Well that presumptive detention kind of maps back to the whole Reefer Madness idea that you know, you're a danger to society. You could be a an Axe Murderer if you thought I was Cannabis that you could be an Axe Murderer with any drug according to you know, basically that but yes, they targeted marijuana and heroin specifically well and I mean we all know wage To experience cannabis doesn't really make you violent. And again we get back to schedule one and even the definition of cannabis as a drug. I mean, it's an herb. I grow in my back yard, you know, like oregano. Oregano is not considered a drug. It's an herb cannabis comes out of the ground if you hanging upside down and eventually decarboxylate it has effects but you know ambient is a drug. That's that's manufactured in a lab cannabis is a natural herb. Is it really really good, you know American dollars. Marinoff. Okay. Marinol is a synthetic THC. It's in I believe sesame oil if you get it, it's a capsule but full sets of the oil and the THC is in the sesame oil in the capsule. That drug is synthetic produced by the FDA you go out to the FDA sites. There's been four deaths in for a cage from Marinol there have been no deaths from natural that make the yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've heard that over and over that there's you can't attribute any deaths to cannabis wage other than accidents or something. But yeah the just the idea that we know it's safe and is it properly scheduled and I guess what I'm getting at is off the law itself probably needs to change if we're going to change law enforcement. Well, yes where you know cuz you know when you're when you the reason for law enforcement is like I said. Base things safe, but the bottom line is police are here to deal with crimes against other people. You smoking a joint is not a crime against somebody else neither shooting heroin or snorting coke, but you know, we don't Advocate any of this but we all should Advocate people get locked up for it. If they have an issue with it. Let them get help to fix it. Right, you know, you said earlier to that most police officers aren't prejudiced but there is a racial a large discrepancy and who gets arrested right people of color overwhelmingly represent more of the Cannabis arrests, you know, the the actual numbers and you know, sometimes you have to take it with a grain of salt, but they're pretty clear now even worse, you know, even if you look at them as best case numbers are worse case numbers. It's basically one out of three blacks will go to jail. When one out of 17 white Supply to jail, which does seem a little bit skewed and then you take off fact that there's less than 13% of Americans are black, you know, at least thirteen percent of the population. Then you're looking at the ratio should be more like 170 for black people but it is and it's 103 and yes, that's very sad. But you know, it isn't just the arrest this once you get arrested you go in now they want cash for bail for bond to get out. If they let you out. You know, they're held for one of these drug charges. They may be held for multiple days off and it's difficult to get bail when they're held like that. They maybe the family person the family that brings home the the food. So now you're starving the kids off. So they propagates down a lot of areas. I don't know if that's where you're going with this. But well sure. I mean there's a ripple effect. It's like you mentioned the first kid you pulled over he was going to go to college. She probably that probably fell off the table. It's hard to rent apartment. It's hard to get a job if you have that conviction on your record. So yeah, there's it's not just spending the night in jail. It's a whole bunch of stuff that Cascades out of that arrest. Yeah plus the cost but just a few of the things that come from drug prohibition is like the US 5% of the world juice world's population and 25% of its prisoners are from drug prohibition reduce Clara rates for violent crime because they're dealing with drugs reduced trust and faith or respect for the place because they're you know, they can't trust that. They won't be arrested families broken by incarceration where you have these kids that you know, these family members there in jail car, sir. Created and have to do without them, you know income inequality is increased because we see that in the numbers, you know, the racial problems reduced power of judges because they legislators like now they're doing mandatory sentences. They're taking the ability to judge to say this guy isn't a known criminal or this guy is you know, I don't think this guy is going to go on to be more crime and they're taking that away from them and saying You Gotta Give them this many years. It causes Street, you know, powerful Street and prison gangs mandatory minimum sentences is also the same issue and there are few resources for treatment of this stuff homicides due to tell Force, you know, informants and Drug debts National industrial complexes where they produce all these drugs police resources diverted drug cases that goes on and on and on It's a picture of insanity. I mean, it's crazy. So the way I Stein to find it doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Well you guys represent a hopeful aspect of this in that as you said, you're you got boots on the ground you're on the front lines and you can come back and tell people hey this isn't right. Tell me how much progress you've made how long has leaped been in existence and and how long have you guys had an effect on any any laws? Well, you know, we support a lot of a lot of areas. I mean a lot of the people places in the United States have leaked speakers Thursday. We try to go out and speak whenever we're asked and it depends on the speaker what he targets. Some of them are, you know, talk about prison stuff and other things I happened to be the kind of the drug angle person is what my interests lie. And so they vary But we speak and we help people with criminal justice, you know, even some of the people that have written legislation to do Criminal Justice Reform, you know, it runs through leave them leave usually, you know gives an opinion we're not political so we don't say we always support this group of that group. We stay out of the politics, but you know, unfortunately I'm saying is a political hot potato and you know, I have gone to people that have welcomed me with open arms going on a police and then wanted to throw me out of their office because I wanted to legalize drugs. You know and they you know, they their position as you just want everybody use drugs and my position is I don't want anybody use drugs. But if they do, I don't wanna thrown in jail off but, you know having a beer as nice but don't throw people in jail for smoking a joint might be nice. You know, there's a real push. I think Oregon this year has a an initiative to legalize all drugs. So we'll see what happens with that. Yeah. We're seeing more psilocybin measures one just passed in Arbor already in Oakland and Denver I think but when you talk about the political aspect to it, it's it's difficult to separate that but it's about individual rights and you know other guests I've had on have mentioned that in the eighties and nineties normal and other groups were trying to say hey cannabis is an individual right but it really wasn't until AIDS patients began. Yep. Taking cannabis to reduce their symptoms and we saw a reduction in their suffering that it began to gain Traction in far as decriminalizing it because it's a medicine and we now know who works for epilepsy PTSD Alzheimer's there's a lot of applications for this as a medicine and that seems to sway people more than the individual right argument. Well, I think the people that I hear that come back to me and say you're right. We should legalize drugs are usually the ones that their kid ends up being buried because their kid ends up into something and you know, Jesus on it. And you know, those are the sad things we run into is the only tell people about this and they you know Paw Paw us out and then we hear back from yeah. I lost my son or I lost my grandson to some drug. I wish they had a way for him to go and get off it, you know, and and that's I think a key to a lot of what you know, you look at some countries. I'm sure you're aware of Portugal's drug reading and how in two thousand they basically realized they couldn't afford to keep incarcerated people. So in 2001, they took the lies all drugs. And at that point it took time, but today they lose four people out of a million for drug overdose. We lose a hundred and eighty-five out of a million home with drug, you know per million for drug overdose, which way is better right with that kind of case study. I mean that's where you can say. This isn't about politics. This is about common-sense wage. And it's it's not just Portugal, you know, a lot of people say, well, you know, we don't want to live like Portugal. Well, I don't either but you know drug abuse is the same worldwide. It's not like if you're a socialist, you know get addicted to drugs. So the problem is everywhere. It's not just there but look at the Dutch they in the mid-90s had to criminalize cannabis pretty much off and You know, what do they got now? They have half the adult users half the minor users and we have and they have no I'm sorry half the people their teens cuz you suck smoke they're eighteen but people under eighteen have no interest in it in countries are always asking them how you how that happened and they said we made marijuana boring off. All right. It's exciting if it's illegal, right? Yeah, you know, I don't know what it is. But you see the same thing in the prohibition of alcohol, you know decade before prohibition alcohol. I'm trying to think of what else you know, where it's doing two and half or three gallons of methanol day or Messing off for capita. I've got it here somewhere. I think. Oh here it is. In nineteen fifteen word. Take were drinking about two and a quarter of gallons of ethanol per capita or 400,000 the 9020 right before prohibition. We were down to about a quarter gallon per capita. And that was all done by social pressure just like we did with smoking we didn't Outlaw social pressures bad people quit using it exactly what it was alcohol by nineteen was at 1925 we were now For eight times almost 2 gallons. So we're almost what eight times the amount of alcohol intake after prohibition started. So, you know, you you question of what is it about illegal the causes of drink because the same it's the same people. The only thing that changed was it became illegal and then all of a sudden it's by Rockets, you know, what is it about Prohibition that causes that but we see it everywhere people want what they're not supposed to have. Well, it's nice to have to be legal legislative. For instance dear. I try to buy toilet paper a few months back. Yeah, you can find it on the internet for $45 for a four-pack, you know that's science or prohibition people can't get what they want. Then what happened to the hand sanitizers all of a sudden if that was the fda's but now things they, you know, don't put this in the hand side of Dodgers cuz they were putting wood alcohol, which is poisonous. That's what happens during a Prohibition mechanism. It doesn't have to be legislated just has to be respected to the point that people can't get it you get what I'm driving out. Yeah. Do you think there is an educational aspect to this on the front end? I mean in the Netherlands, how did they wage go about making cannabis boring? Well for one thing you don't drive down the street and see Billboards saying, you know vote no on 207. What's a big pot leaf, you know, they don't have that kind of stuff out because it's not legal and that's a problem because when you're not legal, where do they get their marijuana? Where does the smoke shops are the coffee shops get their marijuana. It's an underground illegal business because it's decriminalized not legalized. And there's a major difference because none of this stuff now is tested or anything that comes through, you know goes into their places. It's just they've been doing a lot of years. They have a pretty functional mechanism, but there still is no control, you know, you try to find out where they come from. It's all hidden, but if you grow marijuana plant near yard, the penalty is you you have to go outside call it up. Yeah, so their systems not perfect but results in less destruction. Oh, yeah. Yeah, cuz what they did with the UN attempted the pressure of stopping this because the UN was finding out people are going to Amsterdam smoking. And they didn't want that so they put pressure on on the Dutch and the Dutch basically came up with a system that said you have to have a card to buy marijuana. Well, then they got pounded by all these places cuz cuz they initially after damn ignored it. So all the cities and stuff that implemented it started getting their police departments are getting pounded by all these drug deals cuz the residence were buying the marijuana name is Solomon to the tourists on the corner. oh boy, so you don't you know, we saw the same thing when we when we clamped down on the on the Mexican Government for marijuana, cuz their original position was that's not our problem here people aren't you know, then what they did was shut down the border for about a month till Mexico complied. And then what they say, they saw an increase in air traffic find this stuff over here. The demand is there and whether the market is underground or above-ground. It's going to be served. Yeah and prohibition just a failure no matter what you implement it with, you know, you have to you have to be something worse prohibiting, you know, like you don't want people to get fissionable material suitable material, you know, you don't want to sell at a Circle K and that's worth spending a lot of money to keep out of people's homes. But that's also something that can affect other people not something that affects just you. You know another issue is the driving problem, you know, they feel like there's a real issue with collisions and you know, the research design sport at the research no research supports driving impaired. Let me see that right off. Okay, but when you take a person with alcohol and you put them on a closed course you get them alcohol and they drive faster than they should they exceed the speed limit. They drive closer to leaving vehicle going to take chances. They shouldn't take when they're you know, if they were drinking alcohol cannabis on the other hand the same situation. They drove slower Drive farther from being vehicle, then they don't take chances. They would take when they weren't using cannabis. So that's probably why you see a difference in why mrs. Says, you know, there's little to no problem. There's little-to-no highway safety issue with cannabis because it does not seem to affect you, you know, even though all the studies show, you know, you're delayed and this and that apparently your brain knows enough about what's happening to adjust for them. At least that's just speculation. That's a complex issue. And as you say none of us would recommend anybody driving under any kind of influence fact is the same thing actually says this not even the slightest bit or slightest amount of impairment which of course would make everybody illegal at some point because you know, you get a cold in Europe 18 hours and you're going to the doctor Yeah, if you're of 18 hours and you're driving, you're probably close to 9:08 as far as being impaired, you know, you may not be drinking that your brain isn't working right neither is a lot of other school. So it's kind of one of those things. You gotta kind of take with a grain of salt, you know, but you don't want people impaired but there is going to be amount of impairment out there. You have to deal with Jacqueline you you mentioned earlier when you got ill are you comfortable talking about your health? And yeah, I guess so. What was your condition? I had actually couldn't get out of bed because my back hurts home and had that paramedics load me an ambulance ended up having a blood infection. And they had to give me I guess about six weeks total in the hospital 24-hour Ivy and four weeks at home on a 24-hour IV well wage and then they have to take my defibrillator out cuz of my heart because they were afraid yet. We've got infected and then put another one in afterwards. So it was a real mass in Europe. You're okay now, well, I hope so. Yeah, I see my cardiologists in a week. So I'll find it out their latest things there. But yeah, it took me out of you know, took me out of things I do for Life pretty much a year cuz it started right before Thanksgiving and I'm still not a hundred percent and I'm trying to get back moving. I'm an evangelist for cannabis for a lot of thoughts. I have no idea if it would help with with a blood infection. Well, I don't know, you know, there's some things you just need Western medicine to fix that's true, you know off. It's too bad. But you know, what is curious though is I'd like to be able to know if you know all these people that went in with this coronavirus how many of these people cannabis users and what was their stand extension? Like I've put on a couple of blog posts about some research out of Israel around the cytokine storm, you know, your immune system kind of turns on your birthday and the endocannabinoid system does modulate a lot of functions including the immune system in they had research that showed a blend of thirty terpenes and and some CBD helped kind of even out that immune system response and there was another some research out of the University of South Carolina, but acquired respiratory distress syndrome where they found that THC actually helped with that. I've also interviewed Kyle Turley an ex-nfl player adamantly says that CBD can prevent or cure the coronavirus and I can't go that far, you know, even the FDA came after a month. But he's a True Believer and it certainly has helped him in many respects. It would be good to see some real data on it those research projects. Are they take a while to pull together and we're trying to defeat the virus now or just try to trying to survive but I will the one of the universities did research on a burn unit. And you know, when you go into a Bernie and they draw blood off everything in there and they really compared cannabis to non-drug users to think it was cocaine and alcohol there was like three of them one of the most maybe antidepressants and the funny part is about this is that the actual people on no drugs came out around nine grand or something for the off the costs overall cannabis users came in actually run 8100. And then cocaine was higher than that and alcohol was the highest said about 150 Grand well and time also alcohol course had the highest murder or you know, highest death rate and cannabis had the lowest death rate. So, you know, those are the kinds of studies that we need and went wrong in the traffic traffic enforcement and we have a traffic collision. We need to collect all this data and put it somewhere and that means, you know, if they're going to a hospital and he defended recommend to have this data collected because if we don't collect the data in twenty years, we'll be in the same boat. We're in now right? It's just fundamental assumption. We all grew up with the notion that can choice is bad and it leads to harder drugs and it's Reefer Madness and all that stuff. And what you've talked about is real world tragedies based on the existing laws and enforcing those laws. For a substance that is not that destructive. Well that's part of the issue and you know since you know about early then you know, his family said they know him and they didn't, you know believe in any of this but you know that the numbers and everything showed different, you know, when he made a comment, you know, he said did we know the that we were both lying about the drugs course again, I think that pretty much captures that they knew what they were doing and you know, your biggest problem in my biggest problem. Everybody else is is if I want to research a schedule one drug, I can get a lot of money at the hospital a little support me approval by the DEA. I can research drug if I want to do cannabis. I have to have the same thing. But now I have to go through the National Institute of drug abuse or Nida night as Charter is drug abuse. So they won't approve of anything that says I want to see if this works to help. So they wired into the mechanism way to keep you from awesome. You know, they knew that worked. They wrote in the law way to keep you from getting it legalized and that's by putting through a department. That won't do that. The only way you can get it in. There is say I'm going to show you how bad this drug is if it turns out good that's just do that and that that has happened. So it's a battle that needs to be fought on several fronts. And I know you want to stay a political but it would it be fair to say that you and or leap lien thong sort of a Libertarian approach on this if Libertarians been thrown in, you know, not being thrown in jail, cuz you're not bothering anybody I guess. So, yeah, I mean it's kind of a tough question to answer cuz I can't speak for everybody but we stay out of the politics, but we notice things like, you know, Camilla had dead. What thousand of our cases overturned cuz she violated California law by not giving defense attorneys the money or the information that was required by law that showed up in a centaur that that that more tactfully or more truthfully was that that showed how poor some of the Witnesses were unreliable. They were basically ended up turning over a thousand of her convictions. She also says she does not want to legalize marijuana. She will decriminalize not getting you know, not legalized which is not what we want. We need it out of the hands of the federal government, you know Trump on the other hand said, yes, we will, you know, if you put give me a legalized Bill sign it off. Now the governor of Arizona do see told the legislature the same thing you give me a legalized bill. I'll sign it the Attorney General's office. Arizona Mark, brnovich said you need to legalize marijuana through the legislature and I still go down there and they tell me I'm not going to legalize these drugs home. So you know, what do you supposed to do? You know, it's not that it's a Republican or Democratic thing. It's the whole group or focused on the point that this is bad and that you know, we just have to keep fighting it forever. Well, do you think it's better to tackle this on a state-by-state basis or would it be better to have a federal declaration that cannabis is not illegal. Well, it's the federal also told that everything up, you know, the only reason it hasn't been changed there as we can't petition the federal government like an initiative. That's what the convention of states is going to do. They're actually going to you know, there's a clause our Constitution that allows two states to get together override the federal government basically and you know, we don't take control a lot of people feel if we don't take control of their constitution back. We're not going to be able to do a lot of this stuff but something like that would let our legislators know that we're serious and they need to pay attention to us and they're not doing that. At least that's what most people feel like, you know, they think you know, most people think this is bad, you know, they pull up data that says, you know look up increase in accidents and I'm sure you've seen those you haven't you? Yeah. Yeah, you know, what are they based on? Now where do they get this data real estate that comes from a rest data so that when the guy here is arrested and has metabolized and prosecuted. He's a DUI. Oh, well, he's not deal. I probably so what they're doing is you'll computer trick garbage in garbage out there feeding it a bunch of data. These people are per se do you offer now? All of a sudden? We have a Skyrocket in these people do you is well, there's no basis for its because you legislated something. It's kind of like legislating. Anybody has blue eyes is g u i want a couple of years you're going to say we can't let people with blue eyes drive cuz if you do a lot hm you get when I'm driving it. Yeah. Yeah, just leyshon is put in place to say you're impaired when you're not necessarily impaired. This is says that metabolites are useless yet. That's what we prosecute all of our DUIs off. In Arizona is is metabolites and all of a sudden says it's useless. Anybody does anything in the metabolites knows it's a useful science for the exact same purposes. All it means is you've been exposed to the molecule and a week ago or two weeks ago to see the same thing happening to you know, young middle-class women that go in or even upper class women going to have a baby. They do it blood draw and they're they're they test positive for opiates when in fact all they did is stop at Panera and buy a dog and yet there's enough morphine in there to trigger that hm and then they end up having their child with help. Yeah, this is what the drug wars doing. Well will tell us what the listener can do to help support leap in your mission could because it's important. I mean again being on the front lines and having this voice is is a huge thing and want to thank you for being involved but how could listeners help? Well, the best thing it is send money, you know, I mean off the elites always needing funds but you know, you can go out you can talk to legislators. That's you know, the best thing you can do is is make your word known to legislators, you know, don't get in this thing where you sign the you know, where you where the legislator goes to his desk and as secretary hands on a stack, you know, that's a foot high of the same thing took it over and over and over again. You know that you know, he knows somebody got in the computer did that and probably just going to toss him. We need to you know, writing a personal letters always better writing emails game, you know, the candy males work, but you get a canned response usually and most of the most legislators know that but the best thing you can do is get the out get out took two people get their true word of it out understand the the science behind it. Someone somebody says not on all these people are you know, if you legalize everybody will be addicted. Well, we know that's not true because of this this and this they don't know it's true. They assume it's true. Just like they assume if you have metabolized you're intoxicated then we know that's not true. So it's hard, you know to get these views over and get the people to understand that they have the wrong view of this. So get educated get involved in discussions and conversations about this talk to your lawmakers and just get out there. Yeah, that's near the best thing you can do and and you'd mentioned do you think it's a state thing? But what makes this move is that the people have got the states to legalize medical marijuana? Okay, then once people start realizing hey, this isn't so bad then they moved on to legalization, you know, recreational legalization or adults is and from there. They'll probably go on another drugs, you know when they realize but eventually down the road somewhere. That these drugs aren't the problem if you want to deal with the drugs or killing people deal with alcohol. That's what's killing people in our state that's a straight-up poison and we know that off and we know that not only that but if you watch TV in the morning or they have a guy run into somebody going the wrong way the first thing out of the DPS officers mouth is we have a real alcohol problem. Now, that's the drive. That's the issue. But you know, if you look at the numbers say do you want somebody driving say you have somebody take heroin do you offer driver? No, not sleeping pills. Do you want them out there driving? No, sir. Okay, if you take What notes are says is the Collision odds increase of taking a month or feigning or what's called a narcotic analgesic. It's a seventeen percent increase in odds of collision. That doesn't sound very good pay you take heroin or you take sleeping pills. That's a 19% increase in collisions. Okay. Do you know it's a DUI loan for alcohol is What is it now Point O 8 .08. Yeah for a regular person. It's 04 if you have a commercial license wasn't your driving first. So you're not dead .03 rise of collision with alcohol is 20% Well, so you exceeded all the worst drugs already at that point for there's a 60% chance of increase in Collision .05. There's a hundred percent Champion chance to increase in Collision, you know, and that's why Mister says off if you have a, poly drug situation more than one drug and alcohol is one of those drugs. It's the cause of the accident. Well, and that's another song on the in this war is the alcohol Lobby. I mean the entrenched Financial interests. Yeah. Good luck. Well, that's one of the issues, you know, you told us to a legislator and they go God you're right, but I can't log. Like that, I'd never get rid of, you know realized we're back to politics even sorry, but you know everything you ripen about is related somehow, you know, I'd like to be able to say yeah, it's great. We shall just use it that be it but you know, we're not at that point yet until we you know, get the people understand there's General drugs aren't going to be an issue, you know, even alcohol probably wouldn't be an issue if we wouldn't feed it. You know, we don't show the kind of out ads for alcohol like we do for cigarettes, you know, and that's how you stop people from drinking and driving is you tell them the reality of it. Not that it's a the thing to do on the weekends is which is what we do, right, you know, and even you know that you're better off price off a joint and You know drinking alcohol cuz you know, it's you know, but intoxication and mid Latin comes we're came from means poison. So what can you say off? Well I have with you sober October. I haven't had any alcohol this month at all. And for me sober means alcohol, I'm I can still Vape cannabis and stuff. So well, you know your thoughts the same things with the vaping industry now, they're trying to keep you know, I don't know what the law is for buying Vapes, you know, I can't believe that twelve year old can walk into the store off of a pain but you know, if that's true that's an issue but you know vaping is substantially safer than cigarettes because of all the content of the crap and cigarettes and that's what they're going to do by prohibiting the stuff just try these kids are already addicted so they kind of go to cigarettes. Yeah, it's harm reduction, you know if you and again yep. It looks of it are always going to be there. You just have to find out how to deal with them. And I think you're right education and talking to your legislators is the place to start. We'll see where we go with it. Have you ever read? Hope you don't mind. It's a plug for a book but it's out of print a guy named Dan Baum wrote it back in I think it's nineteen mid-nineties, ninety seven or something. It's called smoke and mirrors the politics of failure or something like that or the drug war and the politics of failure and it outlines what happened back in the sixties. That's why we have a drug war if you can find that you should read it. I think I've seen it on the internet since it's out of print. I think I've actually seen it on the internet so long. I'm going to look that up. Yeah, Judy and Dan and bom ba. Um, and I've got the book here somewhere. I don't know what he did with it home. Jack where can the listeners find leap online well floor enforcement Action Partnership. Org the I'm pretty lazy and being a programmer for a bunch of years. I thought that was our original link is still active and are you on Twitter and those places? I do have a Facebook account. If you send something directly to me off. I have a jack. Wilborn law enforcement Action Partnership. Org account where they can email me and I think they get put jack. Will warn off at leap. C c and hit the same thing as you said earlier if they want to send money best places to go as go to the website and you can donate their yeah, I'd love to have your money. It's not turn away like can't guarantee. It'll go into that. Does there anything we should cover that? We haven't well generally there's a guy named Myron dead. Jeffrey Miron, that's a economist and he produced a bunch of words. He was like a professor emeritus, you know, one of the big colleges back east and he did a lot of research and stuff for the office and one of the things he said about Prohibition is we doesn't matter what you prohibit like I was saying if you prohibit something and whatever you project that is mutually, you know, the training of which is mutually beneficial between two parties in prohibition will fail so basically, yeah, so that's basic, you know, if you got something somebody else wants you can solve for more money that prohibition will fail that doesn't matter. If it's another person your neighbor your next city the next state for the next year's supply of Law and demand supplier. It's provision. It's how prohibition functions and you know, that's what people need to understand is you know, whatever. Yep. Prohibit better be worth your prohibit your provision cuz you're going to grow the problem just like we did with drug right, revealing. Demand is going to yeah, and you know the worst part that you can't get across to these people is that we have the drug problem, but now with the drug problem, we now have the criminal problem, which is the real problem. The drugs aren't the problem. The problem is the gangs deadly violence and murder associated with transportation and distribution of these drugs. That's a big perspective. I mean, it's a big Ripple that goes out from a dumb set of laws while they were, you know, if you believe that they were put there by Nexon for political purposes of then you can understand why they did it even though it was anti-American, you know, basically off our Bill of Rights numerous other things, but you know, that's the way things are done. Sometimes the politics look at it today, you know, we need to get the feds out of the drug business, you know, whether marriage On our anything, you know, and you know, I at least with marijuana we know it's pretty safe. You know, it's not like, you know, you really can't get addicted to it, you know, even though it's not physically addicted. That's how I measure it, you know, the most addictive substance on the earth is dead. So we certainly don't prohibit that know so in some of the tried and hasn't worked out too. Well, so the bottom line is what we are is Thursday. We want to let people do what they need to do let people get access to this stuff because it is safer to prevent the harm, you know, keep you from getting arrested give them the only attitude that you know have the attitude that if they have a problem they can go to a police officer. He's going to save their but That's what we want to do. We want to make we want to return the place their Warriors to their position, which is Guardians. And you know, that's kind of a bottom line of I think we're we're driving. I think that makes a lot of sense, and I think anybody would be in favor of it. I think that's a good place to wrap it up, and I want to thank you Jack for sharing a perspective. It's certainly a really important aspect of society right now. We would be in a better place if we had a sensible approach to the cannabis laws. Yeah. Thank you again for taking the time. Not a problem. You take care. You've been listening to the cannibal podcast with host Tom Stacy if you like the show and want to know more please check us out at cannibal with a K a.com. And please leave us a Revolt Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. See you next week.