SERIAL KILLER: Charlie Brandt
Thanks to boost mobile for sponsoring this episode of crime junkie to find out how you can get more from your mobile plan visit boost mobile dot com or your nearest retailer dealer for details high crime junkies. I'm your host ashley flowers and i'm brits and today's episode i will warn on you is a gruesome one. We don't normally get into the gory details of a case but in this particular story the details are crucial to the understanding of the perpetrator and his m._o. That the police are scrutinizing carefully. This case will make everyone who is dating or married to somebody. They knew as a child sleep a little easier tonight breath. I includes you but it will make all of you. Who met your partner as an adult sleep with one eye open tonight because this case confirms for us you never really know anyone and in two thousand and four many people found out that they didn't know the real charlie brandt <music> in two thousand four charlie brown and his wife terri were living kind of idyllic life that you would expect in big pine key which is the southernmost portion of the florida keys. He's charlie had spent most of his life in florida from about fourteen fifteen until well into adulthood with just a short break in there when he worked in the bahamas he was an engineer and most of his career he was actually in charge of a radar blimp that was supposed to intercept drugs being smuggled into the u._s. Terry and charlie were married in one thousand nine hundred eighty six and for almost eighteen years they had what everyone thought was a perfect marriage. I mean literally to the point of almost almost being like sickly years later. Someone said like they used to do this thing where they would like make each other's lunch every day because they said that <hes> lunch bench made by the one who loved you tasted so much better which is like ooh but you know wow that's a lot very cheesy stuff but against so many people wanted what they had back then we'll september of two thousand and four was a pretty unremarkable time in the brand's life but it was marked by a defining raining invent hurricane ivan people in the keys were told to evacuate so charlie boarded up his home with the kind of precision you'd only see from an engineer every board cut specifically to spec with little holes cut out for each specific doorknob. They left the house in pristine condition. They did not expect expect to be gone on. In fact charlie thought it was a little ridiculous that they were even evacuating at all he didn't think would be that bad of a storm but his wife and her family were insisting they they were just going to make the few hour drive north to stay with terry's niece michelle near orlando and then they would come back but when they got in their car and started the drive. I don't think either of them knew that they would never make it back to their house. In the keys again the first night they got in one of michelle's friends was supposed to come over and visit many of michelle's friends new anterior and uncle charlie so it was common for others to visit while they were in town but that first night michelle show called her friend that evening and said hey you know don't bother coming over. We've all been drinking. I think maybe we've been drinking a little too much and now charlie and terry are arguing doing so you just stay home. We're going to get together another time while they're here. The rest of the day's there seemed pretty uneventful. Charlie makes plans to see his dad. He sees his younger sister since they live just like an hour away or so and it's his younger sister jessica who actually tells us that charlie didn't really want to be there. She was the one that said no. He he said it was alterior the idea to come and her family and he kept talking to her about how he just wanted to go home and she said there was this strange insistence in his voice about wanting. I need to get home as soon as possible and she said it was weird too when they left. Charlie embraced her and her dad like in a way he normally didn't and told them he loved them and it felt like a very strange goodbye yet. It sounds like it's probably more intense than usual yeah now. Charlie and terry were planning on leaving on the twelfth and again. It sounded like charlie couldn't get out of there fast enough which to me isn't like a weird thing like all about sleeping in my own bed when i'm traveling appaling so yeah definitely i get wanting to go home but the next day something changes despite the fact that their bags were packed and like lined signed by the door as if they're ready to take off something had to have shifted charlie all of a sudden insist on saying just one one more night and now this is september thirteenth michelle and her mom mary lou normally talk every single day but starting on the thirteenth thirteenth mary lou's call michelle's phone. Start going to voicemail which again not a huge worry. This happens michelle just calls her back but one day passes asses then too and by the third day her mom is sure something is very wrong so she calls one of michelle's friends. Debbie michelle had this a close group of friends and they all shared keys to one of those places so mary. Lou asked her if she would just go over there and check on michelle. She's like i can't get a hold of her. All of this is super weird eared and my sister terry is supposed to be there and i can't get a hold of her either so debbie grabs her keys and heads over and before she pulls into the driveway she calls their other friend friend lisa the one that was actually supposed to come over that first night and she explains what's going on asked her to come over to and in the driveway as she's pulling in. She sees both cars like she knows everyone's home so she walks up to the front door and starts knocking but no one comes to the door she waits. It's a little bit and she's not even hearing so much as like a russell behind the door so her knocks become more frantic in an almost full panic now she tries is to put the key to unlock the door but it's just sticking. It's not working. She can't get in so she starts walking around the house i to the living room windows banging on the windows calling out michelle's name around to the bedroom windows like again banging banging banging calling out her name not getting a single response as she's walking around the house she spots the glass door on michelle's garage and she can see right in and what she sees chills her to through her core. It's michelle's uncle charlie hanging from the roof of the garage from a bed sheet and debbie immediately calls. Police is to the scene when police arrived. They used debbie's key to get into the house. I thought it didn't work so it didn't for debbie but i have to believe that maybe it was some kind of divine intervention either. She was using the wrong key like again. All the friends had keys to each other's houses or something we can't explain but for whatever reason easy lock stock and she couldn't get in yeah and it would be a blessing that she couldn't get into the home on her own that day because what police found inside that house is something something that shocked and scarred even the most seasoned investigators inside that home they found terry slumped over on on the couch with seven stab wounds to her chest as they made their way further back into the house to michelle's master bedroom. I assume zoom they expected to find a similarly tragic scene but what they found was so much worse when they opened the the door to michelle's bedroom. It's been said that the site was so horrific. That officers ran out of the house to throw up. Michelle's body body was placed on her bed. It was determined that her cause of death was one fatal stab wound to her chest but after she was deceased she had been decapitated capitated and her head was placed next to her body as if she was made to watch the other depraved acts that would be perpetrated on her her breasts arrests were severed and her body was cut open and her organs including her heart had been removed and placed around her body while her intestines were put in the trash now the rest of the room was littered with her underwear and bras from victoria's secret when when the police and investigators are able to regain their composure because again this is something that shook every single one of them to their core they went outside to talk to debbie and now lisa who had arrived they asked them to describe michelle to them and once police confirmed what they already feared that it was michelle gal inside they told the girls about the murders michelle's friend was the one who called michelle's dad and she just remembers crying into the phone saying over and over again michelle's dead. She's dead. She's dead in the first few hours. After this horrific crime everyone one is baffled and confused. They didn't understand how something like this could happen like who would have wanted to hurt michelle and terry and charlie but police these are quick to correct them in the early stages of the investigation. They already had a theory. This was a murder suicide perpetrated by charlie but this didn't didn't make any more sense to the family like how could this have happened. Charlie was the most normal guy in the world. He and terry were married for what almost two a decades. Everyone said they were perfect couple. He had a great job. He was smart. He spent time with michelle a ton of time before like what happened. Now and police were just as confused as everyone else they came to the conclusion because of the manner of death that it was obvious charlie had killed michelle l. and terry and then killed himself but the reason behind it was a total mystery okay i assume they pulled his records. Though like did he have have some secret double life. How do you ever been in trouble with the law before i mean the first thing they of course did was pulled charlie's records but he was totally clean. There were no arrests. His fingerprints had never been entered in the system before prior to this event. Charlie would not have any heads officers who would have come across and maybe on a routine eighteen stop would have thought he was just your average joe but there was something they didn't know something that was hidden from charlie's records and it doesn't and come up to anyone's attention until charlie's older sister. Angela is called in to talk to police and before they can even start talking. She stops them and says i have left to tell something to you. People and the next thing to come out of her mouth would forever change this investigation. This episode of crime junkie is made possible by boost mobile switching to boost mobile gives you more and i'm not kidding when i say more boost has a super reliable super fast nationwide network but there's more you can get four lines for one hundred dollars dollars a month with unlimited gigs data talk and text so if you're paying more than one hundred dollars a month for four people like why do you just enjoy way giving your hard earned money away. If you're still not convinced there is even more you also get four free l._g. Stilo five phones for the entire family family boost is the switch that gives you more offers and coverage not available everywhere free phone requires port in additional terms and conditions may may apply visit boost mobile dot com for details all right now back to our show. Angela tells police. There's something you need to know about charlie the reason i i don't seem to be as shocked as everyone else about what he did to his wife and niece. He's murdered before at first. This doesn't seem possible yeah again. They look at charlie's records. He was clean angela like how'd you have been confused. They didn't know what was going on but she persists. She said no. You won't have his records. They've been sealed because has when he killed. He was only thirteen when he murdered our mother. Angela goes on to tell a horrific story set in nineteen seventy seventy one the brand family which was angela who is fifteen charlie thirteen and their two younger sisters were like two and three very small. They lived in the town of fort wayne indiana with their dad and their mom who was eight months pregnant to everyone. The brands were normal family. Charlie was is a normal boy who did well in school and that's why no one could have expected what happened on january third nineteen seventy one. The brands had all been up that night watching t._v. Together before it was time to go to bed after their program angela had gone to her room to read the younger girls were like already asleep and mom and dad went to the bathroom to get ready for bed as well charlie's mom got into the bath while his dad stood over the bathroom sink out of the corner corner of his eye charlie's. Dad's spotted him coming into the bathroom. The next words out of his mouth were charlie. No charlie stop thirteen year old. Charlie held a gun and fired once into his dad's back then went to the bath tub stood over his pregnant mother and and fired five shots into her now. Angela is like hearing this from her room. She's hearing her dad yelling and before she could even make it out of her bedroom room. There was charlie standing in her doorway. He had something in his hand but in that moment angela couldn't even put together what he was holding or what was happening it all seemed so unreal and as she's explaining all of this to police nearly thirty three years later she explains that some of its fuzzy fuzzy some of it. She doesn't remember she's blocked from her memory but she remembers charlie pointing the gun right at her and then hearing a click as he pulled the trigger. The gun wouldn't fire and she doesn't know exactly how the next thing she remembers is her and charlie harley entangled in a physical altercation and she kicks the gun away their wrestling and she assumes that she got hit by a few good blows because later she'd she'd be bruised and bloody and as they're fighting. She kept saying to him charlie. I love you. What are you doing. I love you then. All of a sudden angie said that she was looking charley right in the eyes and he had this like glazed and crazed look that all of a sudden just disappeared disappeared like he snapped out of something and he asked her. What did i do and andrews is. I don't know like i think you shot our parents. It's but i need to go check like get off me coffee. Both children at this point are freaking out charlie because of what he had just done angie because she is terrified to her core of her own brother. He kept asking what they were going to do. An angie kept saying she didn't know but she knew she had to be calm. She couldn't risk kim being afraid of her so she starts thinking on her feet and making charlie think she's like on his side and she's going to take care of them and their sisters and she starts to head head down the stairs and she's telling charlie that they should leave but they have to take their sisters with them so she tells him you go upstairs. Get me some blankets for the girls like it's winter inter out. They need to be bundled up so he starts walking back up the stairs but he's walking backwards and the whole time he's asking angie. You're not gonna leave me. Are you promised me you won't leave me. And of course she says no all the while knowing as soon as he's far enough away she was going to make a run for it as charlie got higher and higher on the staircase still looking at her. She bolted for the front door and she runs out running through the snow in her bloodied nightgown barefoot screaming for anyone to save her from her brother. She ran to one of the the neighbors houses and pounded on the door but before anyone could even come. She saw her brother closing in behind her. She could hear him yelling angie. You promise you you promise you and leave me. Those would be words that she would here in the back of her mind for the rest of her life. Angie ended up running to another another neighbors but charlie went right up to the first door that angela was at he knocked again softer than his sister hat and a young girl opened the door. Charlie charlie stood there in the cold and just calmly said i shot my parents. Police and paramedics were called to the scene and life saving measures were performed formed. Charlie's dad actually ended up surviving the incident but his mother and her unborn child didn't even have a fighting chance both she and her unborn baby died in the tub that january night and no one could figure out why so fast forward to two thousand and four suddenly suddenly police had kind of emotive not a great one but this story that angela told them at least provided that there was like some <hes> kind of darkness that existed within charlie something that had been there all along but maybe now just resurfaced the common thread. Here is women women right. Maybe <hes> i mean dad only got one shot. Mom got a whole gun unloaded on her practically and then what he did to michelle cutting off her breasts there's underwear everywhere yet and so people have theorized us before that he had some kind of hatred for women but here's the crazy part like i agree with everything when you said this it's this all seems like he is targeting women's specifically as far as i know they've never connected him to a male victim but the weird part for me is everyone who knew charlie said that not only did. He and his mom have a good relationship but he was what everyone called a momma's boy which makes this so much more shocking. I think like i personally know a momma's boy. We have a momma's boy who edits this podcast headcount and don't you dare take that data and i i do. I think it would make it all the more shocking to find out that someone who was so close to their mother mother and who would be described as a momma's boy would do something like this right like i think everyone would have expected you know kind of a bad kid or maybe an antisocial okay kid who gets into a lot of trouble. Maybe is involved in drugs but not a momma's boy now like you said like not someone who's good in school who gets along well with people and i think you want to believe you can see something like this coming but it sounds like you couldn't right and that's what made this so terrifying to a small indiana community back in one thousand nine hundred seventy one. I'm sure parents started locking their own bedroom doors at night or even looking at their kids a little differently like what are they capable edible of and how do you try and help them when there are apparently no warning signs yeah. I guess that's what i'm struggling to believe. There had to be something something right. I think everyone wanted to believe that because to believe that some people are born bad apples is terrifying. Charlie underwent went three separate psychological evaluations each time the professional was looking for some underlying signs of like of specific mental illness that could explain away his behavior or at least explain what contributed to it but each of them reported that charlie seems like a normal boy who just snapped opt for no apparent reason now according to some online sources he was too young to be charged with murder under indiana law. We we have a law like that. I i don't know what the laws were seventy one. I know that now laws are not structured that way at all and i couldn't find somebody who specialized in old indiana hannah laws but i have to assume there was some issue with charging him because he never went to prison instead. He was sent to a psychiatric hospital hospital after a year in the hospital. It's my understanding that his dad actually fought to get him released and i'm not sure why like as a parent feel free to weigh in here because in my mind i'm like you stay there as long as you need like. I'm going to wait for the professional tommy when you can come home without trying to shoot me again again yeah. That seems a lot safer. Honestly i don't know if i would miss my kid enough to be like yeah you can just come home and and feeding dress like it would be scary but like i have to assume there is like this bonds like you want to protect your child. I get that and you feel like you're getting them the help they need read exactly like to me. I would want to get to the root of why this happened otherwise. I'd be so afraid of something like this happening again but it clearly there was a reason his dad wasn't worried. Maybe was just his parental instinct. Maybe there is more to this story that the public will never be privy to who knows when he is released. Charlie's dad moves the entire family to florida now. There isn't a lot known about charlie's life as a child in florida but here's what i can piece together i think he had some grandparents lived down there so his dad probably moved to get some help. I mean after all. He's a low now with four kids but also so i can imagine you'd like you'd wanna start over in a new city fort. Wayne isn't a super small town as far as indiana goes for everyone knew the story of what happened in seventy one so if if charlie did have any real chance of growing up normal it would be hard to do there so they moved to florida and within a year his dad remarries and here's what i don't get his dad moves the family back to indiana but leaves charlie behind with his grandparents and i for the life of me can't figure out why i can guess until i'm blue in the face and i think they have some pretty good guesses but no one has ever reported why he stayed and many stories on the case just kind of like gloss over it but to me this is a huge deal and maybe one of the biggest keys in the case like was there something still there that that anyone could have seen right and i know we aren't going to go down this rabbit hole. The listeners can speculate for themselves but i do not bring up one thought couldn't did it have been that his siblings didn't feel safe around him like i get as a parent you still feel the need to protect them and all that but i would imagine his sister's would still be super confused and scared especially angela. Yeah we'll also. Here's the thing <hes> angela obviously knew because she was fifteen when it happened. Charlie like actually tried to kill her but the other two younger sisters who were like. I said like three and two when their mother was killed. No one ever told them what really <music> happened. They were told that their mother died in a car accident or something like that and they lived their entire lives until two thousand and four having no idea what their brother had done or the truth about their mother's death oh my god but they weren't the only ones almost no one spoke of the incident after it happened happened was like this dark stain on the family's past and they wanted to just move on they wanted charlie to live a normal life and it really seems like that's what was happening. Charlie for a long time was proved to everyone that children shouldn't be punished like adults because they aren't fully developed and there really is so much room for change but in two thousand and four when charlie committed that horrible act against his niece and his wife everyone questioned if the opposite was true like he had clearly never changed and he was still just as evil it seemed as he was back then but while the public went back and forth trying to decide if like once evil is always he's evil and if you suppress it long enough will whatever it is eventually explode out of you. Police had a different question. They didn't think charlie early had been suppressing his evil for thirty three years. This two thousand and four crime was to perfect it was too neat and michelle was killed killed and mutilated with such precision that two police officers the real question was how many victims did charlie have over the thirty three years is that he was pretending to be normal the more they looked at charley's life from his teens into his forties. The more they heard disturbing stories stories like no one person had all of the facts but pieced together from everyone in his life very disturbing picture began to emerge his sister angie told police that even though the family forgave him and she really did love him there was always an instinctual part of her that was scared of him him she wouldn't visit him down in the keys and if he ever came to stay with her she would sleep with her door locked and barricaded shut and she didn't want him around her kits. Now now other people in charlie's life his co workers talked about how charlie would talk about his niece at work sometimes not calling her by name but instead calling her by a nickname he gave her. He called her victoria's secret. The same brand of underwear that he threw around in her room the night she was killed and the same brand of magazine that charlie had owned a subscription to and also just not an appropriate nickname for your niece. None of it is and people said at work the he would talk about her like almost had this obsession with her. He would talk about the men she dated like. No one was good enough for her and again. I don't know why no one said did anything at the time but they're only seeing one piece so in addition to this unusual taste in magazines. There was also other things found in charlie's home that were like odd to say the least he had anatomy books in the house. Although neither charlie or terry ever worked in the the medical profession and weirdest of all on the back of their bedroom door there was this poster and like i used to have posters on the back of my door but when i was twelve so the poster on the back of their door is of the full anatomy of a woman and it is was the creepiest thing ever because when i heard this for the first time i imagined like a skeletal picture pretty like formless figure whatever yeah but ono when when i saw the picture i got full body chills. It is a woman cut in half one half shows the skeletal system the other half half shows the muscular system but she has like a full head of hair done up into a bun. It is so so creepy made only creepy or by his internet search history which included searches for autopsy photos snuff films necrophilia sites like listen. I'm not saying you should always check your husband's search history but this case makes me want to another person who had a piece of the puzzle but again not the whole thing was charlie's best friend jim now. Jim was actually married to angie at one time which is how he and charlie met but the two became fast friends and now i will say jim was one of the few people who did know about charlie's past. Andrea told him before getting married she thought it was important piece of family history three which like hi. I agree good too but fast forward some years later angie ends up leaving jim so jim take sanctuary at his best friend's house down in the keys and they're like drinking. They're gonna smoke. They're gonna fish. They're gonna be mad. It's what you do after a break up and listen. I know that like no one is thinking or talking being a hundred percent rationally in these instances. I get that like we all say things. We don't mean we're hurt and even as a friend. Were saying things to support the ones that are hurting. Oh yeah but you tell me if you think this is normal so this is like day two of him coming down there and they're on this fishing boat and jim just like mad. He's talking about how he wants to get revenge. Vengeance and charlie tells him well. You know what the perfect revenge is. Jim you kill somebody and then you cut their heart out and you eat it. That seems drastic. It's not normal. It's not like you go out and find someone hotter yeah and like make out with them or go. Take all the shots like no but i think it's extra disturbing because the person he's talking about his sister like yeah. You'd think he even yeah no. He's like his best friends. Hurting he would have some like shred of love for her to talk about cutting her heart on eating greek kidding me and jim knew knew about his past right. Yes lead flags everywhere. You would think that right but as far as jim new charlie hadn't done a thing wrong in years and years and in years maybe he was just talking and so jim writes it off but years later jim here's another story straight from terry that he shouldn't have written off because terry was close to discovering who her husband really was according to jim terry pulled him aside one day and said she was thinking about calling the sheriff on charlie. She said that she had come home early. From work one day and charlie was in their fish cutting room which was just like the small utility room of their house. When she opened the door charlie was covered in blood and there was blood all all over the sink and jim's trying to calm terry down and he's like yeah i get it but like that's the fish cleanroom that's actually normal. There's always blood in there and terry says yeah. I know that but there were no fish anywhere to be seen and jim trying to make excuses for his best friend. Terry cuts cuts them off. She's like no listen to me. There was a girl that was murdered not too far from us the same time they found her mutilated body in a row vote and i'm worried he might have done it. What should i do and like i get wanting to defend your best friend but ashley if eric came to me and was like listen ashley into something dark found her with a ton of blood as much as i'd want to defend you. He's your husband. I'm gonna take his word for red eye to me. That's the crazy part and i was going to ask you what you would do if that scenario presented itself and i think i would say like better safe than sorry again especially not knowing this weird background that charlie has yeah but jim is like steadfast and instead he kind of like veers terry the other way. He warns her. You know if you call them like this is marriage ending. It's all over and you just need to think about that before you call police. Maybe that's true like i don't know if you can come back from your spouse thinking. You're a murderer but again. It's worth the phone call okay so so when they has conversation. Did anyone bring up the fact that he had murdered his mother so they didn't again we know jim definitely knew and had told him end but he never talked about it with charlie or with anyone else for the full thirty three years since the incident charlie had actually met terry breakthrough jim and the woman he was dating at the time and when charlie told him that he wanted to propose to terry jim said listen. Have you told her about so. The thing and charlie says no no i don't want to and jim says you have to tell her male. If you don't tell her i will so charlie just says like okay okay fine. I'll tell her but then poof surprise wedding. No one from the family is invited no and then. Jim just never brings it up again now. He said that he always implied that she knew because one time he'd asked him about having kids and she's like well considering everything i don't think we will or i don't think it'd be a good idea or whatever and he took that to mean like considering the thing but like if someone asked me. Are you an eric and have kids. I'd be like right now considering everything i e considering. I have to research six episodes considering. I'm going on tour considering. I'm running a business considering what like considering all that like no. We're not running out of time right now. It could it could have meant anything and terry's family swears up and down that she had absolutely no. I know i deal whatsoever. They said there would have been no way for her to keep that a secret and moreover like she wouldn't have been with him. They say if she knew he was capable. Book of something like that know the family and sometimes investigators point to her journal as proof. She cut this little like daily log and wasn't the kind of journal. You're probably thinking where she like details each day. It was more like a planner where she just jotted down. Significant notes like had a nice dinner with charlie went out fishing or you know one. One of them was marked weird day so there was nothing in there about finding out big news however i do think she had to have had some deep concerns concerns about charlie aside from the incident where she wanted to call the sheriff on him. She also made a couple little notes in that daily. Planner like charlie stayed out it all night. Charlie got home at three a._m. Stuff like that but no one person other than jim's suggested that terry could have known anything about charlie's past. I think she was totally surprised by his actions that night and i wonder if maybe in those few fleeting and final moments. She didn't realize that her darkest suspicions missions about her husband were right all along because they were after charlie took the life of his niece and his wife and then took his own life in two thousand and four police opened up a large scale investigation. They were sure this had to have happened before. It was reported it by some media outlets that they were looking at up to twenty six cases with similar ammos. We're like the victim had been decapitated and or had organs skin's removed because i guess <hes> in the world of serial killers from the research i've done one or the other is in super rare when you're talking about depraved killers but to have both of those is and i imagine though that when they're looking at his m._o. I would hope they expanded out a little bit further of that because i think what we we all know is that killers don't tend to to start their like their first. One is a decapitation mutilation. They usually build up in their crimes getting more in more depraved. Though this group of investigators got together over a decade ago to link other crimes to charlie no official list has been created of his victims uh-huh except for they do conclusively say that he has more and there are two victims who have been conclusively linked to him but beyond beyond that there is no large list no one has ever laid out all twenty six people that they're looking at now. One of the victims that is believed to have been his his was sherry pervious show she was found decapitated and her heart had been removed and she is actually the one who was found in that rowboat beneath the bridge near charlie's house the one that terry had heard about and saw him with the blood that was back in nineteen eighty nine and back in nineteen eighty-nine. This was an emo oh they they never seen before in the area. It was terrifying in all they had was a composite sketch of a man who was seen running across like u._s. Route one mine near where she was discovered and i've got a picture of the sketch on our website it actually looks a lot like charlie and they can tell from her boat vote that her boat was used a cutting table for whoever killed her but again back then they had no idea who that would have been okay so i'm bad at math but that's like fifteen years before michelle and terry and almost two decades after his mom is really nothing else will aw right so police are confident that they can link him to a nineteen ninety five murder as well. There was a woman named darlene toler in miami. Amy who was found wrapped in a blanket and then wrapped in a tarp off the highway and when they unwrapped her body they found that her head and her heart racing as well well did they ever find the heart and head for my understanding no and it kind of makes me wonder this. This might be really gruesome but if he was eating them that's going to because that's what he told jim to do for revenge but that's never been confirmed and it's also kind of contradicted to me by the fact that he didn't do anything with michelle's organs like he just left them around her body. Even though he would have had ample opportunity to fulfil whatever fantasy he had but i think law enforcement are confident enough to connect him to this specific case of darlene because of what was found in his vehicle on darlene body police found dog hairs similar to dog hairs hairs that were found in charlie's car but charlie interior didn't have a dog they had cat and my understanding is that charlie had actually helped out a friend and at this time taking her dog to the vet and early on it was believed that those were like the same dog hairs and eventually dna testing was done that confirm debt so there was no way this victim would had hair from one of charlie's friends dog unless she was somehow in his truck the same truck that the dog had been him and additionally charlie charlie kept meticulous mile logs for his travels and on the day that darlene went missing he had an extra hundred mile trip that couldn't be explained and here's it's just a weird side know about the friend with the dog like i said earlier. Everyone saw this normal guy in each person only got maybe one or two glimpses into the real charlie about twelve years before the murder. Charlie wrote her like a three page love letter and she said listen. This can't be like. I love you like a brother. I love terry sister but like nothing's going to happen between us and then she said after that like she didn't like to see him but after that for for the longest time she would have dreams about charlie chasing her and trying to kill her and this is like the guttural instinct. I think we all have even even if it's just our sub conscious that comes through deep down if we listened to ourselves we know when something isn't right now. There was a book written about charlie brandt called the invisible invisible killer the monster behind the mask and in this book the author theorized that charlie was also responsible for two more murders and i'll tell you about about them but i want to be very clear that they have not been connected to charlie by law enforcement and at least in the first case the family was actually upset that the author just like lumped them altogether so while they might have been some of the initial twenty six that police looked into no one has said that charlie is as the perpetrator of the crime for sure the first one is carol sullivan and she went missing in nineteen seventy eight. She was just twelve about to turn thirteen and it's devastating because this was the very first day that she was going to walk to the school bus on her own like she's about to turn thirteen. She told her mom. I'm old enough. She she went missing and later her school would be found in a paint can and the reason this comes up and she's connected to charlie is because of the decapitation and and because charlie did live in the area that she went missing from now the other victim that he was linked to was a woman named lisa saunders who at age twenty in nineteen eighteen eighty eight ten years after carol sullivan was killed was found nude and lifeless on the side of the road in some bushes in an area named no name key vultures were actually what alerted authorities to the body and according to the miami herald she was missing her heart brain is neck muscles appendix colon vagina left philippine tube ovaries ladder thyroid gland and parts of her lung now now she had marks on her body indicating that her killer tied her to the back of a car as well and drug her about a half a mile before dumping her body. The pathologist couldn't say whether the organs were removed by a person or by the vultures so this might not fit the m._o. At all or if maybe the cuts were crude and could be mistaken revolts remarks. Maybe this is just the early signs of what was to come if this is truly truly connected maybe his methods were just more crude and he wasn't as well practiced but here's the thing like i said those have never been conclusively linked to charlie. He died in two thousand and four and in two thousand and fifteen. They're still articles about lisa. Offering a crime stoppers reward so this case is far from being considered closed post not much else has been released about the twenty six deaths that were investigated in connection to charlie or if any could be officially closed without him came here to talk about them in the book that i mentioned there is a big section where they kind of line up terry's daily journal entries with suspected victims and it is really interesting times either. She's out of town or she's like you know charlie's acting really weird. He's been really funny. These last couple of days that kind kind of lineup well but we know that's not proof of necessarily anything. I do think there were a lot of women who suffered at the hands of charlie between the time he was thirteen thirteen and when he died in his forties women here in the u._s. May be women in the bahamas where he lived for a short time but we will likely never know a true number are and will likely never know why like was charlie branches boring evil or did something happen. I think very few people hold hold the real answer to that. One of those people is rob hammered. Who was the lead investigator on michelle and terry's case in two thousand and six charlie's and mental health records were released him and he said that the record helped him understand why charlie committed his crimes and in the same book that i referenced earlier it said said that charlie's mother nagged him and growing up his father who grew up in germany during hitler's regime was overly strict but it could really be what made him that way. The rest of us are just left to speculate. If you guys want to see pictures from this case like the sketch or that really weird anatomy poster you guys can go to our website crime junkie podcasts dot com and be sure to follow us on social at junkie pod on twitter and at crime donkey podcast on instagram on the instagram. We will be back next week with a brand new episodes <music> crime. Junkie is an audio chuck production. So what do you think chuck d approve <music> thanks to boost mobile for their support of crime junkie.