Catching Up on Recent News
From radio vermont it's the dave graham show on w._d. It's your show about the people places and the issues that matter the most of you now. Here's your host dave graham good morning vermont. It is monday august the nineteenth two thousand and nineteen and <hes>. We have have a good show lined up for you this morning regular monday morning guests colin mine is back with us today. He's the managing editor of b._t. Dig dot oregon. We're gonna talk about a number of issues that have gone on in vermont right now that are being reported on by that terrific online news site later in the program. <hes> another returning champion will be with us. Dan richardson is highly regarded regarded attorney in montpellier former president of the vermont bar association and he will be talking with us about some strange doings by involving aside the judge up in the northeast kingdom as well as just overall questions about whether vermont's an eighteenth century tradition of having side judges be very powerful participants in our court system really makes sense in this twenty first century and there's been a lot of debate about the senate judiciary over the years <hes> inside judges continue hanging hanging in there even though many of them are most of them don't have don't have law degrees so interesting situation there anyway <hes> let's get ready ready new with <hes> with colin mine and <hes> collin. Thanks for joining us this morning. Always a pleasure and <hes> wanted to check in with you about a couple of things going on one. Is this actually i i we had a little discussion about it on the day. Graham show <hes> sometime in the last couple weeks but <hes> williamstown was debating debating whether to allow a._t._v.'s brought access to <hes> town roads and i see that that is spreading around other parts of vermont <hes> justin trombley v._d._i. Dot org headed through ryota cra- aspiration talking about this a similar issue. Yeah it's playing out all across the northeast kingdom. You know the question of how much access to give a._t._v.'s the public roads you know do you <hes> allow them to ride on all roads <hes> along with paths the roads often connect those a._t._v. has or do you sort of give them very limited access s. based on what they need <hes> the debates happening in montgomery and holland and hardwick and sutton <hes> and as you said just in focused on crafts berry where they just had a vote vote on tuesday last week that really divided the town <hes> the story that he wrote starts with the select board chair saying that no issue in his thirty years or something. I'm sort sort of involvement in local politics has divided the town as much as <hes> this question of how much road access to give all terrain vehicles <hes> and there was sort of a the new rule that was written <hes> that actually made <hes> increased access somewhat but atv riders wanted more access so they reopened the debate <hes> sorta in a way shot themselves in the foot because <hes> ended up going the other direction and they rolled back by vote of one hundred and nine to eighty six the rules that had had been passed a couple of years ago <hes> so there's now very limited access for atv riders <hes> in crafts berry <hes> but the story really gets into a bigger sort of cultural question question of whether a._t._v.'s are apart of the quintessential vermont is experiences one woman put it who is opposed to having a._t._v.'s on the road in this idea that you know people who sort of come to vermont for a nice quiet relaxed <hes> you know natural place that sort of having a._t._v.'s roaring by their houses or <hes> she described a scene where a bunch of a._t._v. riders was <hes> set up shop next to her pond and had a party late at night then her mind that is not part of what vermont should and could be an interesting. I i guess there is a culture clash element to it and <hes> <hes> what what question that i that's occurred to me about this. Is that <hes> i do. We censor atv use in general is on the upswing. Do we have an idea in the a._t._v.'s being sold that more people are riding for more miles etc. That's not just an expert in the story. I'm not sure about that because you know i i wonder about these in a in a in a slightly larger context which would also probably involved. I don't know things like jet ski or personal watercraft after that people use on lakes and so on <hes> wh- a on an on another day on the day graham show or in any any place in in our in our society really people are talking all the time about trying to reduce carbon footprints in and fight climate change and so on and <hes> <hes>. How does this love for a._t._v.'s square with that. Yeah i mean it's a good question and you know perhaps <hes> a._t._v.'s have become more environmentally friendly over time although <hes> certainly the way they sound down doesn't seem like they are <hes>. You know terribly fuel efficient <hes> and you know that was not sort of the angle of this story that we pursued sued certainly <hes> a question worth asking yeah i just i find it fascinating that and i understand that there's a <hes> is a certain thrilled to zipping speedily up and down these <hes> these little roads and <hes> some of them are <hes> interesting in terms of terrain and hills and curves and all that fun stuff and i can imagine agean the if you're on an atv <hes> that's gotta be a little bit of an adrenaline rush or maybe a an adrenaline rush for folks but it is tough tough to square the the idea a._t._v.'s racing by with anybody's notion of of <hes> you know waking up here in the birds chirping and going for going for quiet white walk on your dirt country road and that's that's the other kind of vision. I think that <hes> this woman had just interviewed was talking about here. <hes> <hes> yeah and the other aspect that people talked about us sort of how do you enforce rules you know so if you create a contract between a._t._v. riders and the town given town <hes> then who's making sure that a._t._v.'s writing <hes> the speed limit usually rose will be posted for both cars and a._t._v.'s so you'd have thirty five miles an hour for cars and twenty five miles an hour a._t._v.'s t._v.'s or something like that <hes> and you know state police say that they cannot really chasing down. A._t._v.'s is not safe and not something that they're interested in doing so it requires <hes> involvement of other law enforcement either the county sheriff or the local <hes> police <hes> for crafts berry. They talked about having a constable do enforcement of the constables. Only there a few days a week and it's hard for him to get anywhere so essentially what they're asking people residents to do is you you know if they see violations of atv <hes> rules to call that in our report it self report and then we'll get followed up on eventually but it's just not very efficient officiant <hes> law enforcement system so there are these organizations the a._t._v. association that partners with <hes> you know they they essentially pay the town to to hire law enforcement officials to enforce the rules for their own members which seems to be an effective way of going about things but <hes> sort of system that crafts berry has not adopted at this point. I wish some people say it sort of makes their contract. <hes> futile interesting story would and as you say is playing out in many communities across vermont <hes> has has anybody come up with sort of what the standard best practice a solution is in other words. I mean i can imagine a town saying <hes> okay okay. Here are certain roads that you can use <hes>. I dunno certain days of the week i mean i would imagine if you have <hes> <hes> road a road bean road see maybe they take turns as being the place where a._t._v.'s can go or something and then other days they can be the place to take a quiet walk. I don't know exactly how this works but <hes> or limited hours. I don't know whether there's any any <hes> minute he said all this stuff is hard to enforce but i mean is there any kind of a compromise. It could be achieved by my underlying question here. Yeah i mean i think the the solution that some towns says working is that you negotiate gate <hes> that sort of agreement that you're talking about you know sort of broad road access limited to certain hours and time of day that sort of thing <hes> keeping them off private property <hes> but then you know having this association. Basically you know agreeing to expand a t._v. Access <hes> in exchange for having the association <hes> pay the town to hire law enforcement to enforce those rules <hes> and you know as with any compromise. Certainly i think a._t._v. riders are always going to want more for <hes> sort of ability to ride where they choose and the times that they choose <hes> obviously people who <hes> value things like quiet and peace <hes> <hes> you know we'll want less of it but that if everyone sort of equally pissed off then you've got yourself a t._v. Compromise <hes> interesting stuff here. Are you all to try to following this issue as it continues to percolate along on the back roads of vermont where a._t._v.'s atv enthusiasts love to ride their machines used to be on the back roads. That's that's that's the challenge here. They're moving to move into the big roads to to to the main roads sewer they do you see them now a lot on paved roads out there. Is that the picture you know the classic route being the old dirt roads up in up in the hills and so on but maybe there are they coming down main street these days or what was the deal well. That's that's the question playing out here is where. Where do you want. Allow them to get all right. We'll keep an eye on it <hes> hey the democratic party organization in your organization lis having some problems keeping track of their money. I guess basically what's going on. Yeah so <hes> longtime operations director a guy named brandon bait them who it was you know pretty well known in <hes> certainly in political circles and democratic political circles in particular <hes>. There's a statement came out a few weeks ago saying that he had allegedly embezzled about three thousand dollars from the party. <hes> you know which is kind of small chains as far as you know political. <hes> embezzlement goes but at the same time you know it's not very often that that kinda claim comes out here in vermont <hes> so he had already resigned at the point that they explain that <hes> they confirm that sort the reason he had stepped away from the party was because these allegations <hes> and over the weekend here <hes> the vermont democratic party put out a much sort of more extensive statement eight -ment describing what had happened and also said that he had allegedly embezzled something closer to twenty thousand dollars in a variety of ways part of it is <hes> he didn't actually have have the <hes> authority to sign checks but he in many ways sort of arranged the party's finances so they're alleging that brandon did things like <hes> skim money off the payroll gave himself <hes> <hes> sort of an unofficial raise <hes> you know falsified mileage <hes> return return money to himself for personal purchases <hes> and a bunch of stuff like this <hes> and apparently it came to light. The person who does have sort of financial authority in the party is the executive director which is a hired position <hes> and the party's executive director recently left <hes> <hes> and the chairman <hes> terry anderson stepped in and started serving that function <hes> as he was doing that sort of started to see some of these payments to brennan bathe it just didn't look quite right and look further into it and found that indeed <hes> he felt that they were improper so they put together a five page document and confronted brandon and <hes> he left the party the and now with these latest accusations they have also filed a police report so it's quite likely that something like criminal charges are going to start coming out of this yeah and <hes> there was another departure of the executive director recently also <hes> there. There isn't any of this kind of shadowed directly there is there was is connected at all yeah i mean that connection hasn't been made and we haven't been able to contact the former executive director to find out <hes> sort of what he was aware of and why he was signing writing checks that <hes> apparently were not really proper expenses. There's no claim at this point that he was involved in it or knew of it <hes> but certainly strong strong signs of weak oversight <hes> and sort of mismanagement of the party's finances yeah this is <hes> you know when when when he's outfits have large turnover and and also <hes> are <hes> mainly you're often mainly funded or operated by <hes> volunteers <hes> things you can get a little loose. Sometimes i think that i mean some of it looks like just <hes> a lack of double checking and oversight and <hes> you know an organization <hes> anytime anybody tempted if they have a sense that there's a lot of double checking and <hes> and sort of steady frequent auditing and so on and so forth that can that can kill off temptation like this but if you have a sense that nobody's really watching <hes> that can worsen the temptation asian i would think and so <hes> that may be the case here he. I'm brandon bay them. Was you know certainly in the kind of person who have a very cute sense of how closely people were. We're watching the party. You know it's a very small <hes> organization they spent something like four hundred thousand dollars <hes> on operational expenses last year and you know they <hes> contribute attribute <hes> ten thousand dollars here and there to different political campaigns but it's not a robust sort of party machine. <hes> you know it's interesting. Brandon seemed like sort of <hes> you know. He was a berry city council member for a number of years. He decided not to run <hes> in the last <hes> election and <hes> he was his chair of the buried democratic party and you know sort of a strong member of the community kinda guy we would reach out to to find out at b._t. Digger to find out what was going on a berry the latest issues where there <hes> so. I think it's quite surprising to a lot of people i didn't know brandon personally but <hes> you know this idea that someone who is common presence is at the state house and seem to sort of have aspirations of a long career in politics would put that career on the line for you know five ten twenty thousand dollars i mean part of me wants almost a little sad about it because i mean clearly bright guy he's young and and might have had a future in vermont politics in some fashion or another but i think pretty much you know if all of this isn't completely made up. He's pretty easily hurt his feature here for sure. Maybe can get back contract somewhere else who knows but <hes> <hes>. Let's see what else we got here. We have <hes> the macs mich- is arrested over the weekend apparently he <hes> got got caught on video outside the jurisdiction where you supposed to be philipson column yeah. I should say that this is a case of sources say at this point and <hes> we haven't actually been able to confirm whether max or police <hes> that he indeed i was arrested but <hes> that's what we've heard and <hes> it would make sense because last week we did a story <hes> saying he was found on a video <hes> which was apparently sent to police and then to the attorney general's office showing him clearly a ah bar in new york <hes> after <hes> conditions of release were set that did not allow him to go to <hes> <hes> outside of bennington county so <hes> the video he talks to the people at the bar where he says you know. I'm eight miles across the border. It would really be a <hes> a hell all of a thing for you guys to do to call me into police <hes> and report it. You know saying that he would not appreciate that and indeed. It seems like someone did that. <hes> he talked about the data jeffrey epstein which of course happened well after <hes> his latest quarter appearance in which these conditions of release were set <hes> so all evidence points to him again inviolate and you know we should say that max <hes> has proven to really enjoy the attention that comes with these court appearances <hes> with having the media assorted record 'em he often goes on sort of racist rant <hes> when given the opportunity and anti-semitism is also a big part of his <hes> stick <hes> and so that's likely that will be the scene. We have again today at the court. <hes> you know he sort of came to prominence <hes> for harassing kyw morris chris who is the only a black woman in the state legislature for quite some time so he's a bit of a notorious figure and <hes> you know the the story so far is that that authorities have not found any way to sort of keep him out of the public spotlight to put him in jail or to somehow sort of prevent him from doing this kind of stuff yeah i i guess <hes> he does seem to have a liking for this notoriety so <hes> let's hope that <hes> he manages to figure out a way to satisfy size liking without doing anything to outrageous <hes> now <hes> not to say either isn't already a bit about rage out there so <hes> but let's let's the max mich- oh i know what i was gonna do lost my train of thought for a minute folks <hes> michael from barry. Harry town is online good morning michael good morning dave. How are you today do a bit of information on a._t._v.'s. If you care for some years i was involved writing the laws governing a._t._v.'s and the problem was was unlike snowmobiles where they run on snow and when the snow melts there's very little if any evidence that they've been out there but with the a._t._v.'s the damage that is potentially caused by them can be enormous with results in erosion and a number we're of other issues and the over the years those machines have become more expensive and more powerful and even in areas where there are paved save trails. I mean pay dirt but they're they're groomed. This is not is of interest to a lot of these operators because they've got machines that are capable of going down bow down that could be twenty inches niamh eter and so they wanna get them off the road they wanna go through terrain is mind boggling frankly and it causes a lot of damage there there have been attempts by some areas areas to allow them on private land but frequently damage occurs to the land and so over the years there was a battle trying. They get the state to allow the use of state lands for use of these vehicles and the state always resisted. That was the the problem. It's just the damage that's caused. I remember this during the douglas administration. It was a big issue and <hes> i remember some some heavy duty debate in the legislature about uh opening opening of just one section of state highway or something that was designed. <hes> people thought it would connect a couple of off road atv networks or something and it burley was <hes> was a heated debate is probably now twelve years ago or so <hes> at the state house so yeah. This has been an issue for a while and it's interesting interesting. It's kind of coming to the fore game right now. Yeah and maine and new hampshire always had far better programs than for mont and it wasn't attractive to enter into reciprocity with for mont because the opportunities were so limited and again the connections on state roads to get to the various trails that you're just talking about with an issue but even apart from that <hes> primarily the the damage to the land that they traveled on was <hes>. I think that was the driver here all right well. That's an interesting perspective. I appreciate the historical review there. That's that's good to bring some of those issues up and and we we're gonna keep keep following it. I do. I do appreciate the call. Let's go to jim in berry good morning jim. I guess jim is given up so we are fast approaching a bottom of the hour break here and colin mind. Can you stay with us for a few more minutes. Do you have to get down to montpellier right away. What's your program this morning morning. We can do a few minutes okay. We're gonna we're gonna be back. <hes> we're gonna go to a break for some c._b._s. News in just a few seconds and <hes> and <hes> so a couple of words from our sponsors and we will continue our conversation with colin mind after the break. <hes> did one mention our podcast folks if you're just tuning in now and you wanna eh catch the whole conversation so bark. Don't forget about w._d. Radio dot com follow the link from that homepage to the dave ramsey show scroll down a bit and you'll find a list of our recent programs by guests topic etc. We'll be back after a couple. Minutes is c._b._s. News the words sponsors <music>. I wish i had a dollar for every compliment. I get about our selection upstairs at the warren store. The seasons collection boasts country casual clothing for men and women dresses for summer weddings and events baby clothing from soochow doodle pants and fairtrade jewelry from around the world old. I'm excited about a new line of pottery from londonderry vermont also illuminated paper stars for outdoor fun. It's a great day trip to warren village comfort lunch on the deck and upstairs for some unique retail therapy fun funky and friendly and almost world famous now the nave graham show on w._d. F._m. f._m. And a._m. And we are back doing it. In the second hour second half hour. I should say of our program for this monday morning august nineteenth. I believe we have still a couple. The callers on the line is <hes> is <hes> jim carey still on good morning good morning i i got cut off all the what i said those again i note yeah no grande and work telling occasional work woman a couple of times. <hes> i always kinda liked him. He's a nice guy <hes> but to characterize him as a long standing member of the city council is up to you as a pillar of the community and a large community. That's just not accurate at all back then twelve or thirteen to reporter then that a friend because it shows a lack of historical have branding the carpetbagger he arrived on the scene instantly never heard before and again four mailings day vote for for city council. He was a product of the committee. He's only served on the city council one year <hes> and said he wasn't a bad guy without with the state but he was clearly not a long standing member of the community barry even was there for two years maybe three or four tops <hes> and and also i know people on the democratic debates tickly tommy walls leslie these fine people and then they had to do with any you know this this actions of all about so anyway. I think it's important before we characterized people. <hes> the other reported to really know more than just the last couple years. Thanks okay. Thanks is this gonna tendon barney good morning yes good morning ted farris and bannock calling long <hes> regarding the atv issue in crafts berry. I was a selectmen and barnett for twelve years and that same issue came up in our town. It was terribly divisive. <hes> i lay the root of the problem at the feet of the legislature because was the legislature through the state collects sales tax and collects registration fee and completely dropped the ball on how to a us them where to use them or any regulation of them and his fallen to the town by default and the towns get no financial chill benefit for dealing with the problem. It was a tough debate. How did it resolve in brian it. I mean what's the current status of a._t._v.'s. Their current status is certain roads are open on an annual basis and there is an annual review of the roads which will be open and it has worked quite well and do you get many complaints from people who live along those roads about damage to the rows of selves damage to their private properties along the roads or how's that working out we had some nuisance complaints more than damage complaints <hes> largely we have encouraged the club which formed formed <hes> obviously there had to be a responsible organization and we didn't deal with individuals but when they formed a club we dealt with the club and we encourage them to be on private property and as far as i know there have been no private property complaints and when when a town opens itself up to a._t._v.'s on its roads or or <hes> you know gets known for having some good trails and so on <hes> does that attract a lot of folks from from other places to come in way certainly haven't seen a- no okay so so you're a._t._v. Traffic in barnet tends to be local garnered people yes. That's that's interesting. I mean i suppose the experience could vary from from chinatown in that regard but but i just sort of <hes> you know i. I think that any of these examples are useful as data points to <hes> to look at other things playing out over all the other the other part of the issue that i would like to address. I don't have an atv. I never have had one. I've used them in work as a forester <hes> on large holdings in there. They're are a great tool <hes> but i called my insurance agent to say the find out what the what the financial danger point was and i said that i'm gonna buy a big machine the hottest one they have and at that time several years ago the insurance cost one hundred and ten dollars so they really really can't be dangerous. If they were dangerous. It'd be five hundred <hes> or equal to a to an automobile or possibility ability. The insurance industry hasn't really caught up with the with the risks yet or what do you think about that. I don't think they're they're going to lose money. If they've got an opportunity to to make money yeah well you know. Stranger things have happened in from time to time and business but <hes> that's surprising let me one hundred ten bucks to ensure an atv <hes> and and what about the lie of potential liability and i can imagine an atv <hes> needing some some kind of liability coverage don't don't they or is it all a matter of personal injury and stuff. I i have no idea i just talked to my insurance agent and said this is what i'm interested in and and that's what they quoted me at that time and this was a couple years ago <hes> so it's less than a cup of coffee a day that is <hes>. That's quite <hes> quite quite striking. That really is something yeah. Everyone debt for sure thank you for having the discussion we had my sympathy goes goes out to rotary and crafts berry. I know the deal all right well. Thanks very much for the call ted already. Hey <hes> that is <hes>. That is a fascinating question about about how towns are going to regulate. A._t._v.'s should the states step up and do more mr yuri here. I'm sorry ted <hes> from from a barn. It was saying that he's disappointed. The legislature hasn't stepped up <hes> maybe suspects that that's because of the attractiveness to from a revenue new perspective of the registration fees and so on for a._t._v.'s <hes> the sales tax <hes> i. I don't know whether any anybody really is done that. Calculus sir so thoroughly or whether they're the connection. Is that direct. I suspect it's more like it's just a it's a it is a controversial thing and <hes> and it is one of these <hes> one of these issues that gets a lot of people <hes> get their backs up a little bit and <hes> so there's a i think a a natural shyness <hes> for a a lot of folks that would be the maybe the real answer here but who knows what's going on in your towns listeners on with atv policy. Do we <hes> have you gotten got into a place where the the machines are allowed to some extent. Are you happy with your local ordinances on a._t._v.'s. Apparently there's been some some heavy the debate about this and crafts for recording to the story just the town select board opened up the town's roads to a._t._v.'s and then they were reversed by the voters later <hes> and went back to a more restrictive policy and and so <hes> interesting developments there and and obviously far far from alone on this thing so so <hes> that is a <hes>. It's an issue that crops up from time to time and again. I remember there was some fairly heavy duty discussion about it around the state house house back during the administration of governor jim douglas so this would have been more than ten years ago now. <hes> that that the legislature was starting to weigh in and i remember the question there was where certain state highways going to become <hes> just pieces of them become <hes> links for trail networks so that you're you're on a trail. Remember this one place i don't remember exactly where but up in the northeast kingdom. I believe where there's a trail network. <hes> in half hour and a half mile down the state the highway there was an entrance to another trail network and the a._t._v. riders wanted to use that half mile stretch of state road to link the to make trips between these the networks and even that was <hes> was pretty <hes> pretty heavily debated back then so interesting questions the recur here in vermont overtime for sure so the many other <hes> there's a lot of other stuff that is going on around the state in the news and and <hes> you know as well as on on the on the national scene and i just want to open up the <hes> the phone lines for the next few minutes here on the dave graham show win. Invite folks to call in with whatever's on your mind. If you see something in the news that has caught your attention and you wanna make a comment about it or or see what <hes> see what the thinking of your host might be. If i have any offer i am. I am happy to happy to try to weigh in on wide variety stuff here. Is you know <hes> here's a question for you to our folks out. There worried about whether we might be heading toward a recession session. Are there's a lot of headlines this morning out about <hes> president trump trying to downplay <hes> talk of a possible recession <hes> and <hes> and and yet at the same time there are signs of a <hes> of a global economic slowdown and could this could this rebounder curb effect. The united states obviously the economy. The world is awfully interconnected. These days as we know and <hes> the trump administration and is is <hes> trying to gung ho and riot about the economy i mean this is not unique to them. I've seen presidents do this before where they <hes> them. In the economy economy on the upswing they <hes> they tend to take all the credit for that and when the <hes> when the economy starts to slide a little bit they. I want to say oh no. There's no nothing to see here no problem. Let's go to <hes> sean in williamstown good morning shawn morning yeah so we're actually we dealing with some of the similar issues that been described with the a._t._v. ordinances and <hes> it really just kind of come to my attention that all of the towns are dealing with a very similar approach to this and one of the big things that's been lacking in this discussion is essentially the goal of these t._v. Clubs which is not have been clearly defined or stated <hes> the the reality is and what i've spoken to the club members is that they want to get off the road and into the woods in which is i think agreeable to most residents <hes> but the reality is there's nothing in place that really has some sort of accountability regarding how they're going to do that and i think that's gonna be one of the more successful approaches to these ordinances that the residents on both sides of the table table need to have some sort of documentation that they can fall back on were they think that the club is advancing their effort to get off roads and that you know that at the same time they're taking consideration the <hes> the viewpoints and opinions of the residents were there yeah i i i mean that is my sense. Even in a debate i described from several years ago where they wanted us a small section action of state highway to link to trail networks these networks these trail networks were were they did go off into the woods and that's the sort of the ideal terrain i think right right in the minds of most atv users so <hes> but at the same time there are certainly <hes> there are certainly <hes> folks who want to be able to to ya yea get there. You know they want to be able to get to that old farm-gate or whatever that introduces you to field and then there's some woods beyond that or something what about let the private landowners. I mean our private landowners. Do they have an ability to regulate the use of a._t._v.'s on their own property. And where did they come well yeah. I think that's a good point. I think that that part of the discussion is similar to <hes> you know bast type model where the snowmobilers have agreements with landowners and i think that's really where there's going to be a level of community building that we're gonna see <hes> with these ordinances. If if if the clubs are really taking an effort did you reach out to land owners and make agreements and you know i'm like <hes> the public roads where you're leaving regulation or in violations up to you know policing the it's all different when you have landowners involved because these are individual agreements. I and i think there's a lot more respect involved there because it's not a public <hes> rose so the accountability measure again. I i think that's where privacy the residents are going to be assured a lot more because they know oh well you know going through this disguise field or woods or whatever they they if if they're tearing up the trails that this person has the right to you know squash that agreement they they have if if they're not holding up their end of the varga i think a lot of this is really has to be defined and it has to account for the actions of the clubs so that they are. They are reaching a goal of getting off. The road to end is clear to where they're going. Let me ask you your thoughts on on this question that i raised the columbine was here a few minutes ago by the way colin did have to. We were talking about impossibility them staying into this half hour he did after get back to my pewter where viti digger dot org as there <hes> as their regular morning meeting at ten o'clock and <hes> he had something to do before that so i i i wanna thank you very much. Normally i would do that while he's still here ear and on on the air but <hes> i really enjoy having calling in on these <hes> these monday mornings we usually get together but i want to this question. I raised with him. I don't i want to get your thoughts on it as well and that <hes> <hes> goes to you think about climate change so much discussion about that in about you know basically should we be should we be encouraging. <hes> this kind of activity basically internal combustion for fun <hes> or should we say to folks folks. Hey go go out and go for walker. Play around at frisbee golf or something yeah. I you know that's a that's a tricky conversation. I you know i'm i'm a huge advocate for or <hes> you know people power <hes> the eagles whether it's a bicycle or going hiking or whatever <hes> but the reality is i think those types of decisions really you have to be made at the policy level i don't. I don't think we can hold a i mean the the atv club accountable or whomever for the policies. <hes> are are not currently place so while yes. It's a it's a definitely a talking point and you know i definitely in favor favor of more than environmental friendly option <hes> you can't really how how do you regulate or make policies that advocate one way or the other one. You know it's not that there's no there's no law in place <hes> regulating <hes> you know for against <hes> carbon footprints right now but it's i mean we should be as staff you leading the environmental <hes> conservativism when it comes to that discussion all right well. I thank you for the call. It's always good chatting with you and <hes> will we will <hes> <hes> stay on top of this atv issue issue. I don't think it's anything that's going away anytime soon. In vermont communities i mean it's clearly a sea plane out all over the state <hes> in rural towns and it is a it's an interesting topics so president donald trump appears to be annoyed with the fox news network that i just got a look of shock from my good buddy dana jewell here here at our engineer projection booth and <hes> <hes> yeah because there's been a sort of symbiotic relationship between the president trump and fox news network for <hes> pretty much the entire trump campaign in presidency to date and <hes> there seems to be some daylight growing between them a tickly following coming from fox news reporting this weekend about poll results and <hes> <hes> fox news talk about <hes> a new poll out indicating that trump would lose a general <music> election against any one of several leading democrats <hes>. Let's see year he <hes> they asked him about <hes>. The the poll results indicate actually that present vice former vice president joe biden would easily beat the president trump. <hes> senator bernie sanders would win in head to head matchup senator elizabeth warren senator kamala harris <hes> any of these leading democrats according to <hes> and the fox news polling the caning that the range they would range from twelve points margin for for biden which is a really big margin in the presidential contest. <hes> six points <hes> against <hes> harris harris harris and again is even six points is usually when he come election night <hes> the in the results ended up closer than that by a significant ignificant margin so <hes> this idea that the that the poll results <hes> and of course you know you got to put a big caveat in any discussion around polls holes right now we are still <hes> something like fifteen months out from the general election and <hes> the only poll accounts the one that happens on that november day so we we we obviously take these polls poll results for what they're worth but <hes> interesting that fox news is putting them out there and talking about them <hes> and <hes> and also just just now see the the president of the united states get getting quite annoyed with. I haven't seen them you call fox news fake news yet but <hes> but boy you know that could it'd be the next thing coming <hes> he said that <hes> the president said there was this according to a report in <hes> leaving the huffington post. The president said there was something going on unquote quote. The conservative news network president. Donald trump pushed back sunday against a fox news poll showing he'd lose to any of the top democratic candidates in the twenty twenty election quote. There's something going on at fox. I'll tell you right now and i'm not happy with it. The president told reporters at the <hes> an airport in new jersey where he was getting ready ready to fly back from his golf resort where he's been on vacation. The poll released friday indicated <hes> the trump would fall in general election as i mentioned the list here <hes> biden biden sanders warren harris would beat him <hes> trump's it says simply. I don't believe it the leader who has often treated fox news as goto outlet. Ah complained that his worst poll numbers of come from foxy singled out the channel the channels political analyst juan williams for negative coverage and predictably offered support for primetime hosts sean hannity and tucker carlson <hes> anybody with any thoughts going on about what's happening with our president and fox news <hes> you more than welcome to to weigh way in here <hes> is this another example biased liberal media bashing the an the this poor beleaguered president or what what's what's happening. Tell me calls up and let that's no two four four one seven seven seven is the local number here in waterberg toll free number is one eight seven seven to nine one eight two who five five and <hes> that's a that is an interesting development there when when you see the daylight between donald trump and fox news you have to say um. That's an interesting development already. We have all sorts of i find the <hes> the <hes> <hes> so much of our signature or national news going on is just fascinating right now in terms of where is this so where's the country headed. Where's the trump presidency headed and <hes> <hes> much much happening out there. I want to mention also that <hes> after the top of the hour here we we'd go to one of our top media news correspondents for more insight on what's happening nationally and <hes> outside of its borders and that's always that's always always a good way to get connected up there so stay with us after the break that's upcoming. We're going to c._b._s. News at the top of the hour here on the dave graham show and w._d. F._m. and a._m. Couple afterwards sponsors and then <hes> talk media news is a slot. We always go to right after the top of the hour news year and we'll be back with some of that in additional few minutes folks. I wish i had a dollar for every compliment. I get about our selection upstairs at the warren store. The season's collection boasts country casual clothing for men and women dresses for summer weddings events they be clothing from sue chano and doodle pants fairtrade jewelry from around the world. I'm excited about a new line of pottery from londonderry vermont also illuminated paper stars for outdoor fun. It's a great day trip orrin village comfort lunch on the deck upstairs for some unique retail therapy fund funky unfriendly and almost world-famous newsradio w._d. T._v. f._m. and a._m. Now back to the day bram show and we are back into the second hour of our program this morning and bob ney talk me news experts will be joining us shortly. <hes> told he is not on the line yet but we'll be checking in with baba in a moment or two and <hes> he has <hes> he always it has a very interesting insights of course is a former republican congressman from ohio who <hes> got himself into some trouble. I think in connection with the jack abramov the scandal of anybody remembers back to those days in the early two thousands and i actually <hes> bob ney did a little bit of time in the in the federal prison system and <hes> emerged and became a commentator on talk media news and i think he does actually a really interesting in informative job. He's very very middle of the road little headed and has has he has a good approach to his <hes> his overall presentation. I think <hes> going to be talking some about what's been going on in in hong kong in recent days. <hes> <hes> these huge demonstrations going on in that asian city of course <hes> which was taken over by the chinese mainland chinese government <hes> more than a decade ago now or so it had been an independent entity for quite a while l. and <hes> china took control in. I don't remember the year exactly but it was her. First decade of this <hes> this new century and <hes> right now folks in in hongkong quite exercised about trying to get some democracy going in that in that <hes> asian cities as i mentioned <hes> by billy bob is with us good morning bob good morning how are you. I'm doing all right how you doing. I cannot complain yet. It's only it's it's only monday at ten o'clock so hong kong is back back in the <hes> top headlines slot here this morning and <hes> boy houses. I will do give us an update. What's going on over there. You know i thought about something on this story. Dave <hes> on kyw at one point seven seven million people protest yesterday peacefully by the way in fact the worst thing chinese could come up with was they had these horrible slogans against the police and it was traumatizing the families china actually set that which is just bizarre <hes> because they couldn't say anything else you know but what amazes me one point seven million people the population is seven point three million so if you adapt that to the united states population per capita i think we would have to turn not like sixty million people in one day for a protest in america that would be a lot of people that would be the way that could happen if the united states government banned xbox and cell phones and then they broke but you know <hes> this is interesting because this thing has not diminished and now they're actually asking for more demands hands so china's got its army and its amassed and that's tanks but you know it's not the old tenement square days and there's social media now. I think china's probably got to contemplate what they're going to do so just stay tuned. We'll see it discontinues yeah i. I think this is a this is a fascinating thing and and you know i think americans have a natural urge toward being sympathetic ear to the folks who are i'm trying to push for more democratic reforms in hong kong and these are folks <hes> petitioning the government for a redress of grievances which has been at least theoretically and mostly in fact in fact allowed in this country for its entire history and and so <hes> when americans see this kind of thing going on around around the world in places that are a lot more repressive. I you can't help but kind of root for the root for the underdog right now but <hes> <hes> let's see here iranian tanker u._s. tried to seize moves on toward unknown destination so <hes> i together the <hes> the tanker is no longer in any kind of custody are being delayed or detained or whatever <hes> but we don't know where it's going is that is that the thing we don't seem to be knowing where it's going. Iranian didn't wouldn't have said it wasn't going to syria but <hes> we'll see where it goes. I guess the question is do we as a country the united states pursuit and try to take us take it over though i think that's the logical thing. I don't think that's a logical thing for us to do but you never know. Logic sometimes doesn't count anymore <hes> but the british just the background on this of course the iranians took a british ship with soldiers. They've been holding it and the british took this tanker and there was a question on the guardian newspaper about the fact maybe john bolton fed information to london funding to get them to seize this ship to manipulate them and <hes> so anyway either way. They got the ship. It was british territory gibraltar then america our the country last week said okay we want that ship and they out they vowed like emotion in a court and now all of a sudden that producer like <hes> let that shit go once we got into it so we weren't happy with britain but you know britain's got control over it. It's shipping their turf and even though we wanted to ship it's there is to say no we don't we don't want to keep it and of course the <hes> the underlying game here whatever is to try to prevent iranian oil from getting to market. Is that the idea yes. That's our idea. The british don't have the sanctions so they really don't care like we do. The british is motivated. Letting it go was for sure not to let america have the ship because britain wants their ownership released. There's no way they're gonna let us take that chip yeah <hes> so basically different completely different motivations right now for for these two to historic allies britain in the united states so yeah that is <hes> the vessels hauling a hundred and thirty million dollars worth breath of light crude oil and been detained for a month in the british overseas territory. This is your browser of course right at the mouth of the mediterranean sea. <hes> hello for allegedly attempting attempting to breach european union sanctions on syria gibraltar rejected eleventh hour attempt by the united states to really he sees the oil tanker on sunday arguing that e. u. Regulations were less strict than u._s. Sanctions on iran so again the c._d.'s these divergences here basically between the western powers effectively and they might be big enough for ship to sail for all right <hes>. Let's see the president has mentioned this before the top of the hour but <hes> interesting getting your thoughts about this is downplaying concerns about the economy. <hes> are these concerns for real. Should people be concerned. Well i think think for real. I don't think they're too the panic point that some people think they are that you know we're about to go completely under and all the signs because of the what's called the inverted bond market the we talked about that last week on your show that this is the end of the world. I think panic can make this worse factor. The market probably is going to go back up today because we're talking to china. I think there's a lot of factors here and and so. I don't think it's like okay. We're out of the woods but i really don't think it you know it's the sky's vice balling so much of the stuff. I tend to be exaggerated. You know <hes> i think i think people get so excited about <hes> bumps on the road and <hes> and yeah it gets to be the sky falling kind of thing and <hes> and then and then it sort of you know well. Nothing much happened as a result so life goes on and nothing much changes as a result so it's it's <hes> it's kind of an odd thing and in some of the for some of this i you know i actually blame the media. I think that there is a tendency to exaggerate and <hes> you know in part because you're trying to attract eyeballs you know you're trying to of course and <hes> so that that is <hes> something that people need to keep in mind <hes> and and <hes> let's see some some interesting poll results on <hes> on <hes> gun control and <hes> the <hes> some says overwhelming majority of americans favor congress expanding background checks for firearm sales passing red flag laws and instituting a voluntary theory buyback program according to a wall street journal and n._b._c. poll conducted between the tenth and fourteenth <hes>. Do you think this will have impact on congress's. It's gonna move anything well. I think it will look. There's some moving pieces here because you know the president by his nature is <hes> from from <hes> second amendment gun point of view from the n._r._a.'s point of view and the president's good on issues frankly during the primary. He wasn't the best one ted. Cruz would've been the bathroom right <hes> because you know culturally donald trump's been a on this issue. He's been pliable on <hes> on gun control. He's from new york yup culturally been pliable on this and and historically things he said <noise> so the other day. You said that we can never well the n._r._a. Didn't like that but yesterday yesterday. The president talk more about mental health but here's what i think it boils down to the present would be when i say pliable amenable amenable to signing something if congress congre sensitive he's not gonna jam something through but i think he would be you know very pliable on that and so it's up to the house and the senate and frankly they don't do it in september day. They're not doing it already well. He <hes> bob day i. I think i've about used time usually give us. I always appreciate your insights though and talk with you we'll do so soon wanted wanted to introduce. My next. Guest is in the studio here. <hes> dan richardson is is a prominent attorney in montpellier former president of the vermont bar association has been involved in a wide variety of legal issues and and statewide statewide <hes> thinking about the issues affecting our judiciary system including the role of side judges in vermont. We're gonna talk some about that because very interesting the recent case involving aside judge getting into a little bit of controversy up in the <hes> up in the northeast kingdom so <hes> welcome to the program dan. Thanks for coming back. It's not my pleasure. Thank you for having me in and <hes> so <hes> let us let us talk about this. <hes> side judge events <hes> up in the i guess he was. He's working in the in the courthouse saint john's. Marie is that right that's right. He was the side judge for caledonia county <hes> and what <hes> will give us a little background background here. What are the what wh- on this judge sure <hes> what happened with judge fancy was <hes> for a number of years and <hes> under vermont law actually early side judges essex caledonia rutland and bennington <hes> serve as the judges for small claims court and judge vance in that capacity city at sat and small claims court for a number of years and in that capacity he was seeing the post judgment process and this is where it gets a little a bit complicated because a lot of people don't realize that when you go to court <hes> there's the first stage of the preceding which is the merits and once once you get a judgment on the merits tang you you know you defendant. Oh plaintiff x. number of dollars or you know another remedy. That's just that in some ways. Just be the beginning because especially if it's a monetary judgment and the defendant doesn't pay the now judgment debtor. <hes> you have a post judgment. Eh process that you have to go through. It's important to keep in mind. That's in the vermont constitution and statutes that courts cannot imprison people for debt. <hes> we don't have debtor's prisons. We don't have <hes> any process where the court itself becomes the debt collector <hes> but there there is a post judgment process to bring people in to see if they have the ability to pay and <hes> judge vance oversaw that process and <hes> in a number of cases is he <hes> did not follow the process and and really abrogated <hes> individuals due process rights as well as <hes> you you know creating this situation where people were paying fees to the court that went to the creditor without the the process of protecting to see if this was in fact they had an ability to pay or <hes> that it was exempt income and judge roy vance nance was a <hes> side judge in caledonia county for twenty two years and and the longer than that i think actually no late eighties okay <hes> did probably even do he'd been doing this type of of work for at least twenty two years and so and he he's issuing issuing these arrest warrants aligning the county sheriff to go to people's houses and put the cuffs on if they are not paying their debts off timely <hes> so this is part of the larger thing which is what what happens in the post judgment processes and small claims court in particular is <hes> you obviously asleep. You have assets if you have a home if you have a big boat if you have a car something that they can attach if you have a job <hes> the that's where air creditors go first neon. They will seek to garnish your wages. They will seek to attach a particular large asset that they can then get a guaranteed payment on when that asset is either sold or foreclosed upon what happens is when people don't have those assets. There's a process called a financial disclosure closure hearing and that's the first step to basically determined. Does the person have an ability to pay <hes> and what we see a a lot of times is that when people come into these financial disclosure hearings they don't they you either have exempting come meaning that the social security unemployment unemployment <hes> any subsidized <hes> from the government is not you can't attach that to pay a consumer debt or they're so close close between their assets and their debts. You know their bills each month there. There's just no extra money. The court doesn't make people choose between <hes> feeding their family paying their rent <hes> maintaining their car that they need to get to work and paying off a consumer debt and that's the analysis. It's done if the person jason doesn't show up to that hearing you can then have what's known as a show cause hearing because at that point you're in contempt of court. You're not showing up to the court hearing <hes> <hes> and the court if you don't show up to the contempt hearing may issue <hes> contempt order that carries a civil arrest warrant and that's what was happening in here was that the process was he was not following those steps in each one of those comes with its own protection that has to have notice there has to be an opportunity for people to come forward forward because i think frankly what we find a lot of times is that when people aren't coming. It probably isn't because they're hiding their money. It's because they <hes> are. I don't have anything are afraid to come to court the <hes> v._p. Did a terrific story about this recently and they actually featured a couple. <hes> crystal and quinton knowles of lunenberg got themselves into this kind of situation <hes> or the system got them in this kind of situation in in one part of this. I think they they had a transportation problem. They couldn't get a ride to the courthouse to to go to this hearing and i i don't remember from my weekend reading of this story exactly what the whether they had a car that broke down or what they're what the earlier stage of that whole thing was they were. I remember there was a period when they're calling around to friends. I guess and trying to arrange a ride to the courthouse right and weren't able to do that and and this is this is <hes> this is poverty in vermont. You know you call around to friends. Try new range a ride to the courthouse where you're calling around to friends and saying hey can you lend me twenty bucks and hoping that you know by the end of half a day it'll add two hundred so you can go and pay some fee at the courthouse exactly <hes> and <hes> and and it really i think this paints a picture of people who are already well behind the eight ball and just get abused toward board pretty much that that definitely is an and i should say this is a national problem and how <hes> court systems in vermont i it system is better better than <hes> there have been exposes on for example the city of baltimore <hes> where you know they. They were just essentially default mills where they you know all these poor people were never even really given notice in essentially socked with judgements that may or may not have anything to do with them. The vermont system does require a certain amount of proof oof and you know what i think. The vance case highlights is that you know even a good system has <hes> some glaring faults and it's really important <hes> <hes> that you know these due process rights are not just there for show or to be pretty. They're essential in protecting these individuals and you know making sure that you don't have this kind of predatory <hes> action where people are essentially penalized for being for. Let's bring a caller oriented discussion by bob from hybrid online good morning bob them yeah <hes> judge roy band is and crooked at the many should be put in jail and make groups destitute everybody he injured <hes>. Have you had some personal experience so this this judge has yes yes and he did not fall any of the rule of law and he it was just a crooked railroad lerone situation where he i. I can't even talk about it now from that he he he he should be thrown in jail and had make restitution everybody what he did. He endure karuk not good. You know i. I don't know if he's going to end up in jail but he <hes> he is apparently getting some <hes> some some corrective action take it around and how would you put this dan and i. I shouldn't full disclosure. I was the attorney who prosecuted <hes> the case. When it was alive <hes> it did the investigation and you know this was a judicial conduct board <hes> investigation and what what we found was evidence of this failure failure to follow due process failure to follow the rules which in turn were violations of judicial code of conduct and that that led to judge judge vance's resignation his agreement that whole never seek judicial office again and the public reprimand there were three components to that and unfortunately you know or you know the judicial conduct board isn't there to make restitution or those type of actions obviously if anyone felt that they were <hes> aggrieved wronged they could take their own private action but you know this is it. This is how serious this is. I mean this is someone <hes> who was clearly hurt by these actions and and why this is serious and why this part of the problem here is these these counties where side judges who are not law trained <hes> you know do re <hes> run small claims court. There's nothing small about small claims court other other than the amount of of money. These issues are very complicated and if your training is not up to date or <hes> you know there's a lack of oversight one of the big things that i pointed out his that there was a huge lack of oversight <hes> and so you know this problem continued for years <hes> and as as a result <hes> you know a bad decision begat another bad decision which be at another one <hes> and there was no corrective action ever taken <hes> and you have of people's lives at stake <hes> bob. Thank you for the call. I wanna stay one more thing for sure. He had a private meeting with the opposing was in a turney before the case went up and he wouldn't allow me and speak for myself so i can assume him and posing attorney ernie was talking about how they were going to split the money. They were going to steal from me that that is is so wrong there. There isn't anything that should allow a judge to have a meeting with one attorney and not the other x partake communication and that's. I'm sorry and that happens. I was right there and i kept outside door while the cutter attorney and him discuss the case before it went up four hours loud in talk about the case with all and above. Did you ever talk to the judicial conduct board about this or did you go to there's there's a board that covers lawyer lawyers and <hes> <hes> maybe the private attorneys role in this might have been for <hes> for questioning to i definitely think so but you knowledge also in my life. Nobody wants to listen to me or health. Hand in anything so you know i just get right around and run aground really well well. I'm glad you felt you could call us and express your concerns. If i get a hold of me. I like to talk to them or anybody else but you know okay awesome. Thank you for the call. Bob appreciated recreate great for some bottom of the hour c._b._s. News here on the graham show and when we return we'll continue conversations with dan richardson. We'll be back yeah. I wish i had a dollar for every compliment. I get about our selection upstairs at the warren store. The season's collection boasts country casual clothing for men and women dresses for summer weddings and events baby clothing from sue chano doodle pants and fairtrade jewelry from around the world. I'm excited about a new line of pottery from londonderry vermont also illuminated paper superstars for outdoor fun. It's a great day trip to warren village comfort lunch on the deck upstairs for some unique retail therapy fund funky and friendly and almost world famous now back graham show w._d. F._m. and a._m. Thanks for staying with us news and we have with us in the studio this morning gann richardson. He is a prominent attorney in my earlier. He is a former president of the vermont bar. Association caisley gets called on to act as the <hes> the prosecutor i guess judicial misconduct cases and that was one too involved with judge roy vance up in the up in the caledonia yeah <hes> district and <hes> <hes> we were talking on the break a little bit about how some of the issues that came up in this case might be indicative of a deeper problem with overall system of side judges in vermont. I don't know the third rail of judiciary politics and <hes> may maybe it's too hot to touch or whatever but <hes> what can you tell me about your concerns here sure <hes> i think it's small claims court in particular taylor is one of those courts where there are very complicated and very legalistic issues that if you do not have the training and background and it can be difficult to recognize them because they aren't tagged for you necessarily so you know in in this particular case <hes> judge vance stated that you know he he thought he was doing the right thing and you know there was no evidence that he was acting maliciously but he was certainly not not acting in accord with the due process requirements <hes> and that's and that's frightening because you know those do have an impact on people's people's lives does do have <hes> you know we've we've already heard <hes> and they aren't aren't necessarily you know spotted by the the attorneys and particularly in small claims court where you have usually an attorney on one side representing the creditor and no attorney on the other side representing the debtor <hes>. It's very difficult to identify some of these issues. You know side. Judges are an interesting phenomena in vermont in that <hes> you know they were initially created by the state <hes> the population because the population feared the the law train judges. They feared the state. They wanted to local communities nice to be able to make decisions. They wanted to be able to have somebody who would know. The community makes a lot of these factfinding decisions and and by and large you know that is is the role side judges have played. That's their strength is that they often know the local players in this and they have a greater background in making some of these factfinding decisions so if you don't have a jury if you have side judges you know there's they're not exactly strangers but you know it's interesting you know a lot of states had the same system they've moved away from it and the the question has always been you know is this the most efficient use of resources in in vermont want and is very strongly defend their their role in their position as a balancing but they you know have consistently run on a foul of these issues and you know the judicial conduct board decisions indicate that these judges have have struggled with this this role because the role well if a judge is a difficult one. It's it's one that requires you to essentially remove yourself from a lot of society <hes> so that you do not gain biases. Is it requires you to be diligent on some of these issues that aren't nicely tagged for you <hes> and it requires you to manage these dockets in courtrooms that and <hes> you know it's a skill in of itself and so you know to have these people that are effectively elected every four years that may come into the job job not having any training or aptitude <hes> but you know we're simply elected can lead to all kinds of of issues as opposed to say the spirit judges it just that are you know usually while they're all trained with. They're they're vetted by the judicial nominating board <hes> they're vetted by the governor you know it's intense and very very selective process <hes> it's it's. It's a very different result. I think as as a result of these different processes and so you know when we talk about you know the difference between the two you know it's it's very stark and the and the question is what does the side judge <hes> what role all does here she play <hes> in the modern judiciary system <hes> and you know there's definitely been a lot of push back and forth and probably the last flare up of this was in the early two thousands <hes> dot helling who is the president of the bar association at that time came out with an essay against side judges <hes> seeking seeking to limit their role and the side judge association came out vehemently in fact there was an article in the times are hysteria accused helling of mccarthyism. Yeah i remember that dust up back then and i mean this does seem to be one of these recurring issues in vermont that pops up every ten or fifteen years or so when there's a particularly egregious individual case or or when when <hes> when somebody in the in the judiciary sort of in the appointed judiciary <hes> gets a season two brand new newspaper op ed or board that sort of thing i i wonder <hes> <hes> <hes> this just sort of review. These jobs are it's too in every county right so twenty eight of them in the state i gather and and and it's an elected position every four years <hes> what the <hes> presidential year or the or the other two rounded year no they. Let's see they take office on the odd numbered years so <hes> they're the election is i believe in eighteen was the last one okay so it'll be another another round twenty two. I got her correct yeah and and he said the only state that has this kind of institution yeah well. I mean new york. State has had a similar system but yeah it's it's one of these holdovers in western states in the mid west you you won't have these these positions positions and talk to me. A little bit about the workforce issues here <hes> if the side judges were to disappear these fourteen people <hes> i would the judiciary have to the law trained judiciary. Let's call it to set up the distinction here would that have to that group have to grow by fourteen or would that yeah well <hes> you know a lot of the well so the the side judges have a number of different roles in their county officials and they're charged with the administration administration of the various county courthouses now a lot of that's changed since the unification of the judiciary in two thousand ten before then they were actually in charge of hiring staff <hes> and running running the offices as well now. It's much more of a facilities issue. <hes> you know and they provide died. The stopgap measures on certain types of cases so you know side judges often do the small claims court in the county listed though often do uncontested divorces still do judicial bureau tip cases <hes> and then they sit <hes> alongside of the presiding judge <hes> on any civil civil case that does not have a jury <hes> or sorry any case does not have <hes> a jury. I think it's it's both civil <hes> as well as criminal and family <hes> so they will they act as fact finders now if they were that role was to be limited <hes>. I don't think there need to be <hes> stopgap measure because that's what a lot of states do is they just have the presiding judge do the findings of fact and law and in fact <hes> if side judges aren't available judges just do it themselves now in vermont <hes> so you know you wouldn't necessarily have to fill in that <hes> what's judges have proven very effective in in recent times is some of these smaller type of cases such as the uncontested divorces judicial bureau cases where they've essentially functioned as <hes> you know what we would have to do is probably higher more hearing officers to hear those cases small claims court is a patchwork and that's part of actually a larger problem is that you know small small claims court cases throughout the state of vermont. You can get all kinds of different judges in front of you. You can get a lawyer. Who's you know essentially <hes> do serving as an acting judge. I calm weekend warriors only 'cause i do it as well <hes> but <hes> you know you may get a superior court. Judge who's assigned to that. You may get hearing officer. Who's a professional employee of the judiciary or you may get aside judge and you know how each of those individuals approaches the case can be very very different and have very different results when a side judge is elected to this job i <hes> do they get any kind of training or anything when they show up for their first day of work well they they are supposed post to have training particularly when they sit in small claims court but it's it's a once a year one saw i mean it's a one off type of training. There's not the same type of of continuing legal education requirements and i know that both side judges association and the the <hes> the <hes> try the judiciary. You sure have have struggled to keep together. <hes> you know some type of training that would make this <hes> you know give them ongoing training in in these issues but they're just haven't necessarily been either the push or the resources and at the end of the day it's up to the individual judge themselves if they don't want to seek the training they don't <unk> have to but if they do <hes> you know it usually isn't something that's necessarily paid for by the state and the <hes> <hes> the side judges take uh-huh side of training. Let's just talk about day-to-day supervision for a moment. Is there anybody who might have been able to just do an occasional checkup or whatever whatever of the activities of this side judge roy vance and caledonia county and noticed these arrests going on and say hey roy. What are you doing well. I mean that's that's the problem is there should have been. I mean you know let first of all some of these were appealed to superior court and were reversed and apparently we're or not communicated back to him. <hes> the clerk staff was working with him on on these issues and was essentially doing what he he asked them to do. As well as the sheriff's office and you know the problem is of course that the sheriff in the clerks aren't necessarily in a position to tell the judge what to do or what not to do but you know there there should have been and i think you know that's one of the things that should really be taken away from this case is that there needs to changes in the system to how <hes> how it's managed and i think the judiciary to its credit has done that in some ways for example the arrest warrants that were the issue here have have now been removed from <hes> small claims court it has to be the presiding superior court judge and there are more clear guidance from that and so you know in some some ways the judiciary has has has started that process but i think more needs to be done the <hes> i mean i i just find it to be kinda bizarre and fascinating at some level to think that that these appeals would go to the superior court the superior court judge <hes> obviously would i would think become aware aware of what the issues were in in these cases <hes> gee. I got this case here in front of me. Now that came up from the from the side judge and the side judge it has ordered an arrest and clearly that's not allowed under vermont law <hes>. Why wouldn't the superior court of intervened. They released on a very you know personal uh-huh and they're working together house. Yes no except you know when a superior court is sitting in review of a lower court. It's not as if they can have direct communications communications with that judge or <hes> they. They can't go knock on his office door and you can. I tell you what were you thinking on this appeal would the classic expertise kind of communication can't do i mean that you know that's a systemic what that doesn't necessarily excuse the idea that you know if there are systemic mc issues and you know there some superior court judges take great pains to make sure that they provide oversight but <hes> you know some don't and and there's not that sort of consistent expectation that they do that that kind of oversight so as a result some of these things can creep up and you know there is no there was there's no consistency necessarily. It wasn't every case that judge vance had this. Was you know a case here case there in particular circumstances <hes> you know if you're a superior judge and you're rotating in for a year. You may not necessarily catch that yeah and see that oh this is a bigger problem. Let's <hes> let's go to a caller sam from william william williston is on the on the air good morning sam i was wondering at what point in time do you think the judicial will get out of dealing with alcoholics drug addicts would turn this over to medical and stop drop trying to live a gate from the bench <hes> social mores that can't exist with people that are dictated to it shocked and let the begun clinically salmon's good question. Let me let me put it to dan richardson dan. What do you think about that sure well. I mean there's there's already <hes> a drug court that really tries to you know especially if you're in in volved in the criminal end of of it <hes> you know the the vermont court which has been expanding and isn't there statewide yet but is is building. You know aims towards that kind kind of of collaborative work where <hes> the counselors in the you know the the health professionals are the ones that are leading the treatment and the court it plays a role in that as opposed to you know <hes> issuing sentences based on you know somebody's inability to to overcome addiction. <hes> it's there to provide support in that respect but the problem is is that you know these these are situations where <hes> if somebody has an addiction issue <hes> you know and they are committing a crime. There's a question of are they committing a crime because they have happened addiction or are they someone who have a criminal mentality who you know regardless of the addictive <hes> personality would be committing crimes anyway <hes> and you know the the first category is the classic candidate for drug court where you can lean back off of the <hes> you you know the sort of judicial process. Let the let the clinical health process take its role <hes> but the second category is is is one in which there is recidivism and there is not a drug court isn't necessarily what's going to be effective person you know is in is should be in the criminal the justice system because they will crack when you're seeing the resources of <hes> because i think joy this has been done out here on a thirty jay rinse and dry situation and sending them back out and it's not long term where <hes> if we're gonna do this clinically. We need to figure you're out something. I don't want your basis and i believe the only way we'd be able to do that is through taxation on some of these products <hes> <hes> i e alcohol industry probably have to pony up some money and of course we'd have to go back farther get <hes> ah shake their pockets out to take care of soldiers well. I know i know there's lawsuits going around for just that particular thing particularly with big pharma and and some of the opioid and oxycontin manufacturers so you know i know that's in process but you you know you're absolutely right in in that respect in that the judiciary has been trying to do. I think is to pivot from you know. If you think about criminal cases it's it's. It's very much a a sort of chopping cut kind of process. You know you come in for your arraignment. There's discovery you head towards a plea bargain or trial. <hes> drug court takes a lot more time and takes a lot more resources and and you know feeling a situation. We're you're dealing mental illness. Where do you go bring. These people weird you go if jobs had been mid well. That's that's exactly the bra you know. The problem is that there aren't a lot of emergency facilities and i i would agree with you there that you know that's a problem the statesman trying to deal with for a number of years din richardson richardson. I i guess the question comes down to you. When we talk about side judges of vermont and <hes> some of the problems that you run into when you have people who are doing very complicated complicated things without the <hes> without really a whole lot of training i mean do we do we d- the scrap the system altogether and move away from side judges in vermont egmont or is there some role they could continue to play. Well you know on on the last question <hes>. I think there is a very important role all that they can play. I mean here you have county elected officials who have taxation powers <hes> and if they broadened their mandate eight you know moved away from from playing a role as judges and became like a lot of other states have which are county commissioners that could act upon on you know some of these larger problems and in fairness to the two side judges some of the judicial complaints that they have <hes> ban subject to deal with them attempting to do a sort of a larger good and running afoul of the very limiting rules rules and guidelines for judges so you know if side just became county commissioners the i think they could do an exceptional amount of good <hes> in their counties and would in some ways throw off the limitations of of being judges now <hes> you know this is one of those things where as long as i just want to be side judges i think that system will stay <hes> because you know we've seen it sort of historically that that as long as they feel they have a role to play in the judiciary <hes> they will continue to do so and and you know because they have people that support them and there certainly are people that <hes> you know come into court and you know and and i shouldn't say the some people i have appeared before side judges in judicial bureau <hes> in small claims court and they have been very capable and they have been very competent to do so <hes> the question is i think really one of is this a good larger system. <hes> you know question and that you know i won't give an opinion on but certainly they could play other roles. It's not as if this is the only possible system that could ever exist <hes> there are other models elsewhere and you know when we think about social services in vermont <hes> <hes> you know a lot of towns are struggling with these kind of programs because you know a town like mom pillar middlebury rutland that that serves their surrounding towns that don't have the capacity to do it well if you had that on a countywide basis. You could really do some larger good. I mean just think about something like libraries. If you had a county based as library system you could have <hes> you know a lot of states. Have you could move the resources to where the need was <hes> and it wouldn't necessarily the sara lee be the the limits of the town or the city. That actually is an interesting idea. I mean i know in the case of my pillow right. I think you live and i it was well we have the city has the cal cal hubbard library and there's always this question every town meeting. What are they neighboring towns gonna do about i think in a chip in cetera and they don't necessarily want you because they have to come into montpellier to get the services. So maybe you know there. There is could be a role for something which supersedes towns with isn't isn't statewide had <hes> county government in vermont historically has shrunken shrunk and become really a shell of its former self. One of these last vestiges these aside judges. Maybe there is a <hes> as you put more of a county commissioner roll out there. I know i know that's the way it works. In massachusetts counties have the county commission and they actually do you have some purview over various various functions and so on so interesting thought <hes> hey. We are fast approaching. The top of the hour here on the day of graham show w._d. F._m. um and because it's the second hour that means we're fast approaching the end of today's program. I wanna thank my guest. Dan richardson montpellier attorney for president of raw bar association nation and for coming in this morning in talking with us about this side judge issue. It's a it's a fascinating one again. One of these recurring things remind dan. Thanks a lot for coming in my pleasure dave life and do it for today's today's show tune in tomorrow and a little after nine o'clock for another edition of the graham show here on w._b._z. f._m. and a._m. Stay the tune right now. For commonsense radio with bill sayer and of course our day new serves to follow that have a great day everybody <music>.