Why on earth did the Blue Jays acquire Daniel Vogelbach? (Ep. 82)
The big train they train. The game here come the big rain. Rain. Rain big train in the game. Zor, Johnson was his name. A hard fastball ever throw. Made Randy Johnson's look clocking was skipping stones. Lived Bethesda on old Georgetown road. The greatest pitcher baseball's ever no. Eighty two second one, thirty of your host Mark Collie as always I'm joined by Bryson and Jacob how are you guys do great my career not bad Jacob. Gold. Yeah I've got some. Very warm weather where I am so stuck in the. Fight makeshift studio not so great but I'm enjoying it and it's been a little bit. We haven't recorded since last Saturday's we record this on Monday but the Blue Jays have been doing very very well, they won six in a row not doing so hot now is they're losing to the reasons we record this they've already lost to to the raise, but I guess we can start things off with a conversation about this win streak and how it's kind of change the dynamic of this team because now. You know we see the Blue Jays with you know a sixty four percent chance at making the postseason according to five thirty eight a seventy percent chance of making the postseason according to baseball reference I, think five thirty or excuse me fan graphs old bit lower than those two. But now we have some recognition of the Blue Jays in postseason contention in the playoff picture in the wild card picture. Whereas you know even just one week ago we were not talking about this I. Mean we've talked about on this podcast before of how both pricing and I didn't think the blue. Jays can make the postseason Jacob thought that could So what do you guys think of this? Do you guys think of a sixty four percent or seventy percent chance to make the postseason fair? Is it overestimating too much? Has that much really changed with the Blue Jays to make them postseason team? What do you think I? Think it definitely has to an extent. Just. Because this past week itself, not only to the Jays have a massive win streak, but they were consistent and pretty much every game they played obviously they lost. They've lost the past couple of games this past weekend when they're playing right now to attempt to split the series with the raising a four-game sat but other than those two games, Ajay's of loss. If you look back to earlier in the week, they were consistent throughout the way and as they keep you know pitch is a keep playing while the the odds up and the. On the telecast later in the playoff odds for the eight in the Al. so pretty much the worst case scenario for any team to get in the American league and essentially just have to outplay Baltimore Kansas City Detroit and the L. Angels. Those are pretty much the only teams are those are the biggest threats for them in terms of getting the eight them there's a bunch of other teams that are a little bit below, but those are pretty much teams that are all doable for Jays to outperform. and. According to fan graphs as well it's fifty four point six percent for the Jays and that is like the biggest number out of all the teams in the next number is eighteen percent for the Baltimore oriels and that's a massive drop. So you can see how there's actually a lot of optimism and a lot of hype for this team after this past week. So you know going back to earlier in the week they they swept the the orioles and the pitching was while the offense is starting. It's starting to show up the first game was seven to. Eight to the next game five two is the third game which was the sweep and pretty much got. You know Randall Grischuk is another one who was pretty much leading the way that week who was just hitting homerun after Homerun, in both games of the series in Baltimore he was leading the way. You had a good start from Hanjin. Rio on Monday and had a good start from a few days ago as well. So it's good to see that he's been consistent. He's pretty much the only pitcher that's actually thrown. You know I would say at least six innings just because it feels like every other pitcher has not really going deep into ballgames where we're GONNA be talking about that later of teaser there. But the J. swept the orioles in crucial crucial series that's pretty much where they passed them. They had to make up for the double header earlier to make up to out of the three games they lost against the phillies when the phillies had their outbreak a few weeks go. So they had a quick double header in buffalo and they went to, of course, the game was the game that everyone remembers most is when they came back from eight nothing, which was another crazy crazy comeback we pretty much never. Expected to happen and in that way. In that way, rowdy to leads was actually the one who led the way went three for four with an RBI in three home run are sorry three R B is one home run and went through for four on the day. So he was the one that pretty much got the comeback started, and then that takes us to Thursday through this past Monday where they've been spending time with the trump, they win the first game lost the next two in the now, they're trying to split the series today on Monday August, twenty fourth. So this team's been pretty consistent throughout the way obviously a few hiccups this weekend. They lost an extra innings again are served the first game. They want an extra as the second game there extra inning woes continued. They lost two one that was kind of a you know that was pretty much their worst game of the week offensively and yesterday they put up four runs, but it wasn't enough and as we speak, they are currently playing the Tampa Bay rays in the bottom of the sixth inning. So a great week for the as you can see. Lots of lots of ups and lots of positives pretty much. You know pretty much outweighs all the negatives even there's only been a few lots of players have been leading the way and just when you thought when Boba, shot went down the big injury which we haven't even been able to talk about yet. That was pretty much a massive blow to at the time for any sort of playoff chances that we all imagined. So the fact that the offense has been They've been stepping up. Its crucial for this team in order to you know I don't want to say survive but they WANNA get by day by day and hopefully you know get over that five hundred mark and as I mentioned one of the first goals I said last week was to get back to five hundred. They're actually above five hundred for one game another back to five hundred. Today will be the deciding factor if they go over or under again. So lots of building blocks step-by-step at the are in it. They've been in the entire time. They just haven't been playing to their fullest extent and I think this week we've seen a consistent effort from them in clearly if they wanNA, keep playing like this. There's no reason why they shouldn't be in that seat at the worst for the playoff race. I think the the playoffs I said a couple episodes ago that I was very optimistic in the episode after which was last week I was a little less optimistic but. I. You know what? I'm going to have to change my mind again because you look at where they were last week versus where they are right now over five hundred a couple of days ago. Now they're they're back at five hundred, but that is still a lot better than where they were. Last Saturday when we last recorded and When you think about who they're looking to compete against in the playoffs obviously I think it's fair to say that the white sox are going to take that last seed. In the AL cy all their third in the central but they're probably the first seed and then the Blue Jays and the orioles are both five hundred where the oils have one extra wind and one extra loss but. Really if you look at it, the Texas Rangers are seven Games under five hundred. So. I think it's fair to say that from Blue Jays perspective, you're really just competing against the orioles who you can play and you can give yourself kind of the playoff spot by coming by playing better than them, and what's interesting is is their first six game win streak actually since two, thousand, sixteen which. is kind of crazy to think about that. They haven't that in so long but. Obviously I'm happy the. Very good. I think. One. Of the things that I've been very vocal about is how bad defensively I think they've looked whereas this week. I think it's better. We've seen grill with a fantastic Arben the outfield I think Vladimir Guerrero Juniors actually saw settled down a lot defensively and you look at all the individual performances they're starting to translate into team performance isn't helping them actually win relook at tasker. Hernandez, for example, is tied for fourth in the League in home runs where he has ten as of right now, that could change with the game right now. But if it doesn't, he has ten right now and when you think about tied for fourth, technically the leader only has twelve, which is Fernando Tattoos Year. Where he is to below that so even just one home run puts them in second place and. I it's crazy I think the Blue Jays have just they've really settled down. You've seen a lot of great defensive plays especially BDO. He's Offensively look speaking I think he's got nineteen straight games where he's been on bass. Crack Morongo I'm pretty sure it's it's upper its upper teens but. I think overall team has looked very good. They've they have had a little bit of luck where you look back at those games against the phillies and even the raise the both teams of made a few defensive errors. That have helped the Blue Jays win, but they're taking over. There taking advantage of their their opposers missteps at I. think that's definitely what the team has to do, and they're they're starting to not. kind of they're trying, they're starting to not lose to themselves. They're starting to win games based on their abilities, but they're also taking advantage of other people and they're. The things that they're doing wrong but they're also they're not. Giving away games by throwing the ball away or not running the bases properly. There's just honestly. I'm very happy with what I've seen. Obviously they've. Hopefully, they don't lose today against the raise but if they do, that will be three straight losses but still one game under five hundred where you think back to a week ago when they were. Five Games under they were. They were far under five hundred right now. I'm very pleased with what I've been seeing. You on the head, they're no longer losing to themselves, and that's a very good way to put it. The luck has kind of turned. I think some of the earlier losses that we saw you know we saw close games I think there's been ten games this season that have been tied in or within one run in the seventh inning or later for the Blue Jays and when you look at the fact that you know they've only played twenty six games season they're working on their twenty-seventh as we speak. It's it's remarkable how close a lot of these games have been. So for the Blue Jays I think the luck has turned a little bit. A lot of those games could have gone either way the Blue Jays for making stupid mistakes whether it be on the base pass whether it be. In the defensive side of things but they've stopped making those mistakes, the luck has been on their side at least over the past few games and that's changed the dynamic a little bit when it comes to the postseason though I'm still not optimistic I know like I just read off baseball referencing sixty, four, percent five, thirty, eight saying up there I don't believe it. You know I I think this team. Yeah. Things were firing on all cylinders for six games. But now we have two games and half of third showing that maybe they aren't quite. Ready to take that next step I think this team got lucky but I think it's very easy for the luck to turn and right now we're going to have this conversation later but the pitching is not there it still performing well, but you have a lot of struggles in terms of. In terms of management problems I. I don't see this team as team still and I'll stick to that and I know you guys might disagree and I know it's pessimistic but I honestly just don't see them as a competitive team this year. Yeah. They'll. They'll be a five hundred team but and maybe that is enough to make the postseason but I'm sticking with my original assumption of. Saying the Blue Jays will not make the postseason. So well, what will it take for you to someone earth the titus start to turn for you for them for you to be you know believing them for possibly making the playoffs what will it take Well, I I mean, we saw their odds of making postseason increased by thirty percent over the last week. I honestly I know it's a short season I know six game winning streak is the equivalent of sixteen game winning streak in the regular season. But I just don't see the correlation between winning six teams and thirty percent increase in the postseason odds. I think. The Blue Jays got lucky I don't think those winds were because of only their own talent of course, some of those winds were great wins the nine eight gaming against Philadelphia phillies. is one that comes to mind. But I think a lot of these games you know it's just flip of a coin and Jews have gone lucky. I haven't seen enough to indicate that they are winning off of their own talent and that's not to knock the bluejays. Team we know they're going to be a great team in years to combat. Just don't think they totally have it this year to answer question Bryson what will it take to see them as postseason team were approaching the trade deadline trades have already been made the blue jays acquiring Daniel Vogel Block they're looking at pictures I think if they make a move. On the trade market, I think that could convince me I think if we see they're pitching get shored up. If we see Charlie Montoya letting guys get deeper into the Games if we see guys coming back from the injured list whether it's you know Jason Anderson pitching to his full potential whether it's Matt Shoemaker. Now who's You know not not a healthy whether it's trend Thorton. Who's also not healthy. If we see some of these guys become healthy or if we see an influx of pitching in terms of traits, I think that will change my mind. Yeah. The the pitching has definitely been depleted. It will be interesting to see on August thirty first just again a completely. Trail will be out of sorts. It's going to be something. So unpredictable, you're going to see more. One for one trade player for player trades you know you're not GonNa see sewn completely deplete their farm system for one month of a player in a sixty game season knock reality this year by the Jason like you said, they've been destroyed with injuries and regardless of their competing or not. You have to imagine them Ross Atkins will pick up we'll have no choice but to pick up the phone but. You know going back to this week they've been. You know they have been consistent. It'll be interesting to see because I didn't even Buck Martinez said it today on the broadcast and it was something that I think I briefly mentioned a few months ago regardless if there's percentages everywhere expectations everywhere, it's really up to the front office if they want to take this year seriously at all because they could easily somewhat get into the playoffs this year sneak into the playoffs and the for. Front. Office can easily believe that they're still not ready to contend, and then they can go back to twenty twenty one just maybe selling not as much. But maybe at a state where you're not buying you still kind of building depth, you're still developing your players. So it'll be interesting to see how the front office believes in this team. Do they really think legitimate chance of making the playoffs you know with what are their long term plans beyond twenty twenty and that's GonNa be the deciding factor and we're only one week away from actually finding. With the trade deadline being next week so. They got Daniel Vogel back last night. Something that probably we didn't really expect at the time because if you're going to make a trade right now. You'd have to imagine it was gonna it's GonNa be for pitchers and the demand for pitchers around the league. Entirely itself is probably through the roof as well because we're seeing injuries all over the place for pitchers everywhere across the League. Most notable was uh Stephen Strasburg a few days ago he's been shut down for the season. You know other pitchers like Justin Berliners shut down and we know the story on the Jays in terms of how many. Pitches have been down Matt, shoemaker Napier's and Trent Thornton, Chase Anderson. All four names of them they've been in the rotation at some point this year. So it'll be interesting to see and we still don't really know what the front office believes. Of course they're going to tell the media that they think they can win but do they truly believe they can win and if they do truly think. They can win how aggressive will they will Ross Atkins really be next week and if if it takes a few trades for two or for you mark to kind of get onboard then I guess definitely not the only one I'm I'm sure a lot of fans including myself are starting to get really really interested to see are curious about next week because I really have no idea what's going to happen. I wouldn't be surprised if they make nothing but I just started the Daniel Vogel Backtra last night kind of threw me off a bit by There's still one week until the trade deadline's up. So I don't know if you have anything more to add, but that's pretty much. My thoughts there. Yeah. See It's interesting that you mentioned whether you think the front office is going to do anything to be completely honest I. Don't think they're going to do anything regardless of whether they believed the Blue Jays can win or not. In this year I think a lot of what you'll see is probably something like the Vogel Back Trade where you're not going to give up a prospector. Really cash. Yeah. Or? If they WANNA, do one of those future consideration trades will see but. The E if. I think all they're really GONNA do is that they're not really gonNA trade anybody because I mean, you really trade prospects because no nobody's really playing on the shared the majors right now and I. Feel like I said this last week I really do think they wanna see what they have this year before they do make any trades weather it's next deadline or maybe this off season. Definitely. Twenty twenty one off season but it's just I. If the Blue Jays make the playoffs I, think it's definitely possible this year but it'll have to be on based off of the roster that they have right now I really don't think anybody is going to. Make money make any trades if they want to acquire like I said Vogel backward to very low risk high reward will potentially higher award deal than I think they'll go for it. I think that's what Ross Atkins kind of known for but it you're not really going to see many big trade regardless of whether they're you know in the race sir, they clearly have a lead on team or whatever. I? Think it's just going to be you know this is the roster. They win but we're not gonNA. Make any moves until. A year now or maybe even a little bit over a year from now, let's talk a little bit more about the the vocal back trade because Bryson, like you said, it caught me very much off guard We had been hearing rumblings of the tread trade deadline approaching this going to be a team that trying to compete trying to pick up some loose ends and entire off knots on this team and and make it able to compete down the line but. Daniel Vogel Block was not what I had in mind. He's a first baseman designated hitter. He hit thirty home runs last year but only batted two oh, seven or two, hundred, eight, I think this year got off to a horrible start I think he's batting like ninety six or something through about sixty plate appearances. The Mariners designated him for assignment bluejays picking him up as we mentioned for cash considerations caught me off guard very weird deal. I guess there's really no downside to it because you know the Blue Jays probably gave up next to nothing for him and they can either use him as depth on the bench if you start hitting well, of course, you can southern note and designated hitter for space shuffling around in those positions. If you want you can even send him down to the alternative training. site. For some time as extra debt or on the taxi squad. So again, not much downside to this trade but. It. It's kind of weird like I didn't expect it and I don't think really. Sorry coming. Yeah. It's definitely one of those deal letting it was late last night and it just. It caught me off guard a little bit too. I remember I just opened my phone up then I get the tweets from the Blue Jays I. So I was like Oh this is interesting I'll look into that but yeah, I think it's very, very low risk they gave up they didn't give up any players I mean just a little bit of cash but there's a potential for a very good reward obviously, you said last year thirty home runs he he's not going to hit for average I think he's a career what ninety six hitter so. Not very good although I should mention that two thousand sixteen was really his only full year because the other years he had played less than. Twenty Games per season if I remember correctly and even this year, he was the ain't. So it's you. He didn't really play that much but. Something, surprise me despite that really bad average is off base percentage was three forty, one last year and I believe his career is three, twenty six. So just under one every three at bats, he'll get on base which I be. Hey, that's pretty good. What the Jays could definitely benefit from that Some people were thinking that throat instagram in social media looking through things they think that Rowdy Tellez. Is probably going to be. moved. On from I I don't necessarily know what they're gonNA do with without I feel like they still want to. Wait a little bit see what he can do but. I think definitely alternate trading site maybe the taxi squads probably going to be the most likely scenario. The bench if injuries keep piling up is probably. A very good option to I mean it honestly, I think depending on what they do with Guerrero. Do they want to throw him at first base and if they do Vogel back on? The H.. Or are one of them going to take over first base forgave Guerrero D. H. at night I'm not sure but overall I think it's a good trade. There's really nothing that you can be mad about I mean. If he doesn't perform well. then. It's not like can say man I really wish we could get that player back because this was a waste of a trade it's just In either works or doesn't if it doesn't then I mean. Nothing really nothing really to get mad because like I said, they really didn't give much away for it. Yet the trade completely threw me off guard but in terms of his role I think you know I don't I someone I think he's going right to the active roster I I really do. The only the only of a three-man bench right now, and you can't really survive off of that for as long as they have. I. Think That's getting to the point where they are looking at a fourth back to the bench. Now with the corresponding move would be a don't ask me I had no idea. But I think they got him. To come right to the active roster I know he was the fade earlier this week but the trade completely threw me off guard because you know right when I look at it obviously looked at my phone. Right away I was like I. I was I was kind of like I didn't really know what to think about it because. You know in all due respect to Daniel Vogel back there are you know he is not obviously the best seller, but the one thing I didn't even know as he was an all star Lasser that completely threw me off as well and he did he did hit thirty home runs. So he does have power and he was hitting at a pinches friendly ballpark. All Year is well as Tim O. T. Mobile Park. SEATTLE. So that's that's another thing to look at. The moves adults don't understand the need for it is much as something else like pitching. Obviously, this was probably an easier deal to make just because was just a player for cash, and then when you got into it, just it could lead to so many other possibilities maybe the James Aren't done making moves maybe someone like rowdy till as could be possibly moved I was looking at other players maybe even brandon drury because he has the option to play first base and I know he's slotted as a third baseman but many other players on the team can play third base such as tribal shots from playing Santiago has been all COMPLA- play maybe Joe Panic could even play Kevin. bijl complete third but the other thing that will probably keep Brandon Jerry on the rosters maybe the the fact that he completely l. field so I don't know too much about him. You know somebody like Joe Panic, may be I I don't know what the corresponding move is but have like I'm starting to wonder if maybe somebody might be on the. Way Out, and then going back to it as well. You have routing till as you have ladimir grow, junior, Travis, Shaw, all three of them can play first base. So another question I have is how freak winner what's his role exactly going to be other than a bench player because he can definitely come off the bench ed so you know different Times of the game. You know is that always going to do how do you put him into the lineup everyday while keeping someone like a Guerrero Shah in the lineup so that's that's one thing I wanna get to does team not trust? Vladimir grow junior at first base that could be another possibility because The one thing that's kind of caught people's attention past few days Vladimir Grow Juniors pretty much been detaching a lot more frequently this week than he has been playing first base and Charlie was actually asked about that during their lives zoom call meeting. Is Is he injured like what's going on Vladimir grow junior and he just said simply they're just resting him. So that's the other thing I. Don't know why they're keeping trading Vladimir grow junior like a forty year old who's struggling to get by day by day in the major league level he's so he's in year two, but anyways that could be a possibility. Maybe the team doesn't trust at first base by the role for Vogel back just kind of confuses me because you already have rowdy to lead well, who's platooning at Travis Shaw is You know so many other players are just don't know the role for him and then when you want WanNa look at his contract. He he is pre arbitration eligible and he is not a free agent until twenty, twenty five. So the thing that Jay's love team control you definitely have that will vogel back for the next few years by. Definitely interesting move something that I think nobody kind of saw common. But definitely, an easy to make for the Jason it's an addition to the bench by my question is what else? What else is role even though he's only a first baseman in D. H. Yeah I don't think anyone questioning his utility for the Blue Jays I. Think. Everyone realizes what he can be. You know he's exactly what he was last season. Thirty home runs obviously, the two hundred batting average is not great, but you get the power from him and that's why he is valued or was valued by the mariners. So no one's questioning you know his actual talents and if he can be useful for a team for me just like where do you put him like you said bracing you have Vladimir Guerrero junior rowdy delays, even Travis Shaw. They're all the same type of player. So I, don't know where you're finding speech on the roster. If he's coming off the bench it's. Getting regular playing time at first base in flatties getting more time at designated hitter them what you do with rowdy till as so that's a part of this com which confuses me but I guess we'll see what happens but moving onto. A fuller conversation, but the trade deadline since we've seen some rumors come out the Blue Jays earlier today were reported by Jon Morosi of MLB network to be pursuing, starting, pitching, pursuing a piece on additional piece to their rotation Taiwan. Walker is one name that was put out there as connected to the Blue Course Walker one guy. On the mariners who of course, a blue Jays in contact with the Mariners for the Daniel Vogel Bach. Trade. So that's a potential link I. Don't know how much there is talking about here. We know the Blue Jays need pitching. Of course, we're going to talk about that later They have a lot of injuries and even though the pitching hasn't really struggled performance wise you know it will because the pitchers are getting worn down so. I think really, this is all about just. Kind. Of Getting Stopgap for this season, you know stop the bleeding in terms of the starting rotation gives some guys some rest. Maybe even go with a six man rotation for a little bit because you have the twenty eight man roster work with I. think that's what this is about. You have no choice but to go out and make some sort of move after what transpired or what has transpired this season, and especially what has transpired are what happened yesterday because yesterday? was a complete complete massive head to the team. Masses of the team what was going on you lost? Matt. Shoemaker before the game just mysteriously was played. Sunday. The injured list and you know it was determined was the last strain. And Chases I'm sorry turned Thornton left the game as well early because of a elbow problem that he's been dealing with already. So he was already on the injured list once he comes back, he throws one inning and he starts holding his elbow and immediately leaves the game. So to pitchers right there we know nate Pearson Chase Anderson started the year on the Angeles while in this pretty much there. There was pretty much was pretty much it four made the main guys on the entire rotation and surprisingly just because of his past engine review, our hundred rea- sorry has been healthy and that's the one good thing is. Because obviously he is your best pitcher and you know this month he's been pretty much lights out going back to six days ago he threw six innings gave up one earned run struck three only allowed four hits and he about eighty six pitches which reasonable and then going back to a few days ago when he played he also added he also had another good outing where he went five innings giving up three hits, one earned run, and he struck out sex and through ninety four pitchers in five innings. So definitely a high pitch count, but he's pretty much the only pitcher on this team that's thrown. A lot of pitches because everyone seems to be on a limited pitch counter. So you know most of them are getting out of the fifth inning and why I don't know why maybe they're being too cautious. You know with the injuries that's been going on and across the League obviously, the demand for pitching is going to be through the roof. So maybe some it'll depend on how desperate some. Teams are willing to get yesterday's options in the alternate training site, but you still have to look beyond that the one name that we were. Actually, we were actually talking about this last week where Jay when I were signing with Rye Brook Mark You sided with Anthony Cave, who would be the necks long men in the bullpen and possibly get crack the rotation and with the news of. Ryan. Baraki pretty much the J. shutting down the idea that they're exploring him starting anytime soon, they're going to be their only real really willing to keep them the bullpen this season, and if worst comes towards, he might become they might stretch him out a bit but it seems like this year he's just going to be in the bullpen. So going back to you mark, you're the one that. Anthony K should be the next one going and if if the news is true, then I, absolutely agree with you I think Anthony deserves a shot. Now, who if the Jays will do that I'm not sure just because he has been pitching well out of the bullpen maybe something something the Jays don't WanNa mess with other than that. You know the depths there but the depths being tested right now. And it's something where you have to go and you have to get something you don't have to get an ace. You don't have to get somebody who you can get an average pitcher just for depth, which is fine. But the injuries across the rotations just been completely it's it's it's been tough because the matt shoemaker went again came out of nowhere he looked fine when he pitched and then it was determined to get a last rain today. And another one is named Pearson who even before when on the Angeles was struggling and he was placed on a few days ago with inflammation tightness and we don't even know when he'll be back. So this is something that I think that they have no choice but to do and you know someone like Jason Anderson as well as still trying to pitch his way back into things you know he's still not really throwing a lot of innings so. You know the depth being tested but you know I got no choice. But to make something and the good thing is they do have a week to do. So by a tough week as much as Jay's playing while a tough week for the injuries and hopefully you hope it can stop. But unfortunately happening all across the game and you really don't know when it will stop or if it will stop at all. Yeah I think. You're correct I think the the problem with. The. Blue Jays like you said, how many injuries they've had saw yesterday's game against the rays where Trent Thornton he Before the game you could see of him kind of pinching his arm Y- felt discomfort in. Obviously you only lasted the one inning. You've seen that what's his? Name Matt Shoemaker has done off the injured list Nape Pearson you've just seen so many guys that you kind of expected to eat up innings for you. Go Down with injuries and Somebody's going to have to take those innings up somebody's going to have to start, and that will probably be like you mentioned somebody that's been a long man in the bullpen but then you have to address the question of who is going to take that role in the bullpen. Do you want to like I said put along man in the rotation weren't you WANNA trade for somebody and that's probably what's going to happen I know I said, I didn't want any trades to happen but. This has to happen unless. You. Don't even know what the other option is. He just you don't have pictures that's the problem just you've lost too many guys so they're going to have to do that But yeah. Other than that. I mean you can look for your taxi squad but again, you just you're depth is being tested beyond I think what anybody else expected. So if they aren't to go bigotry, then I think they'll run into a lot of problems of. They want to use an opener will then. How you deal with the other days where you're not using an opener and your relievers are kind of way overused, are you gonNA to? Designate guys that are going to pitch in an opening game or an opener style game or you're GonNa have guys that are specifically for those games. And then what do you do when I struggle? You know a guy like last night we're yesterday afternoon Richard Thornton only lasted eating you need Longman, and if all your long men are saved for tomorrow's opening game while than you have a lot of problems on your hand. So I, think yet pitch I? Mean it's tough because like I said it. Pitching, in such high demand and I mean. We're probably not going to see any. Prospect type trades where you trade, you know a few second rounders were. A triple double guy for a reliever or a starter you're you're you kind of have to go either for cash future considerations or major leaguers so It's tough I think trae taft be made but as of With respect to what is actually going to be done I I really don't know and I think it'll be tough for them. The Front Office to figure this out but Like you said Bryson, they gotta stop the bleeding, and if you know God forbid hundred Henry goes down well then like. You, you just don't have enough pictures to get to the season period, but say they do qualify for the playoffs. Swept instantly if all of their pitchers or even. The guys that they would have relied on in the bullpen are with injuries just it's not sustainable if they will just have the pitching. Yeah, totally agree with all that it's pitching is the key weakness of this team not that it's bad. It's just injuries and I mean so far it hasn't heard the Blue Jays much but they've got twenty seven games in twenty six days. I think it is twenty, eight and twenty seven, but they are very busy over the next. You know I think it's seventeen eighteen days. So they need pitching to supplement what they're trying to do, which is make a push the postseason at the same time I don't expect the Blue Jays to. Go all in. You know in any trade whether it's for pitching whether it's for a guy like Daniel Bach I don't expect them to go all in on anything I that they're going to. You know chip away at the coroner's maybe they trade less important guys like we were talking about ready to let maybe on the trading block may be some prospects that they don't care about that much. Maybe like we saw with the Daniel Vogue about trade with just giving up cash for the player but I don't think we're gonNA see big pieces moved because this season. Ultimately. It's not that important. It's a sixty game season. They're way ahead of schedule in terms of competition. So. I think you know they're gonNA play it safe in terms of the front office they won't be looking for big pitching pieces. We'll be looking for stopgaps guys like Taiwan Walker, ease a rental but you know he hasn't pitched more than fourteen innings combined over the last two years. So He's a guy that the blue jays might be looking at, but he's not gonNA come at a high price. So they'll be looking at guys like that who can help stop bleeding but won't be expensive and probably don't have a role with this team in the future. Part of the reason that the Blue Jays are struggling pitching. Wise at least in my opinion is Charlie Montolio and that's a conversation that we wanted to have because Montoya has been pulling pitchers very early from the game whether it be in the fifth inning whether it be when pitchers are only at eighty pitches A lot of these pictures have been pulled and in fact, only two pitchers match maker and high engine you have made it into the sixth inning this season for the blue. Jays. So a lot of people have been talking about how the pitching has gotten worn down how it has been a problem. For the Blue Jays on a lot of people have been blaming the warn down and tired pitching on Charlie Manteo. So what do you think about this? Do you think it is Montoya's fault that he's been pulling guys too early in the game that the pitching has been getting worn down do you WANNA see pitchers get deeper in the game or do you think he's playing it safe doing the right thing when you have an expanded roster to you know take it a little bit easier on your pitchers and give them a little bit more of resting time not as many pitches in and outing. What do you think? Yeah it just puts on tough position but the one thing you have to look at is it's not like everyone staying healthy. A lot of the pictures are going down to begin with. So I don't know. I. Don't know what the strategy or I. Don't know how much it's really paying off other than hundred, Rio? He's been pretty much the only one like I said that's been throwing a lot of pitches a he hasn't really been going deep the deep. He did six innings six days ago. So he did he did go pretty deep into the game had a high pitch count and a few days ago he threw five. Innings any through over ninety pitches like I said earlier. So that's another thing to look at, and then if you WANNA go to another start this week with Nate Pearson he threw eighty-one pitches in four innings so that one I guess you can't blame him there but he just had another high pitch count in he unfortunately struggled allowing five earned runs. That's another start this week, and if you WANNA go to another one. Another one from the double header against the phillies are starting another win against Orioles this week ten, Roark, he threw ninety four pitchers and five innings. So that's also a good sign. Of Work in that day, and now if we wanted the double header against the Phillies The double header against the Phillies Chase Anderson, he threw seventy eight pitches in three point, two innings and allowed one earned run. So he threw another that was another high pitch count from him, and then game too was when trend Thorton guy lit up like a Christmas, tree in a two thirds of an inning that pitch count was low he just did not pitch well at all. So and if you WANNA go to this weekend as well with Matt. Shoemaker. On Thursday he threw matchmaker through seventy four pitchers and five innings and allowed to earn Ryan. So he that's a quality start from him which was good and then you know. I mentioned the start and the rest is the rest goes on. So it's not like the pitcher's weren't throwing the live there i. think most of the pictures this week were they just had a high pitch count but Charleston toilet you could still very cautious and very conservative pulling his pitchers out of the game early I just you know, I don't. Know if the strategy working as well, we've seen bullpens that sometimes he's mismatch the bullpen a few times you know, what's this bullpen tragedy to begin with? Anyway, a lot of people don't even know and I've mentioned it before and I've seen other people are mentioned as you just picking names out of a hat or kind of closing his eyes in choosing. A random person on the the line of card I I. Just I. Don't know. But I think the injuries haven't helped. The deficit is going to be tested regardless by you have to kind of question a little bit which are they doing this week? I. Don't feel bad from because or I don't blame him as much. Sorry to correct that just because the pictures happen throwing a lot of pitches but going back the few weeks ago. They weren't throwing a lot and they were pretty much barely getting out of the fifth innings. So that's kind of something that we've seen all year, but you have to imagine almost a month into the season our almost halfway through it actually you have to imagine that the pitchers would are going to throwing a little bit more or maybe they're still cautious because of what's been going on around the game maybe it's something you can't avoid maybe something that we just see all year but I don't know I know a lot of people still are sold on Charlie toil. His bullpen skills a lot of people blame the extra innings lost a few days ago. So I it's definitely tough to work within. Of course, he's got a lot of options to look on the line credit i. think that kind of maybe overthinking it because of all the options he has and maybe he's trying to be too strategic I'm not sure but this week we did see a little bit or the pitcher's work a little bit more and I think pitch count was stopping them this week rather than going past a certain innings limit. Yeah. I I think honestly it's just GONNA depend on A. Your pitch count and be the quality of your pitches if you're clearly struggling than. You should just keep amid until he gets a pitcher gets into the seventh inning because if you're you're not doing well then. I'd rather wait a game than. Have a pitcher gave up eight earned runs over seven innings but I like how you mentioned the easing guys into the season because. I was thinking of two hours thinking, yes. Obviously had spring training and that was kind of delayed by. Four months or something, and then you had the two week training camp and like you said, we're halfway into the season. So I mean how many starts is it gonNA take for a guy to make for you to feel comfortable with them pitching you know a little bit later into a game and it's just It's really confusing me because you look guys like review and whatnot he was obviously the opening day starter and he's made. I believe six starts. So it just it's confusing to me why You know you've got these guys who? You you're just not letting pitch deep into ball games even though it they've had time to kind of warm up being passed starts I mean obviously the bat shoemaker. With injury pass you don't want to overwork him in with Pearson being so young. You don't WanNa. You're. GonNa have a shorter leash with him but. It just. I think he does need to keep guys in a because of that. But also because you don't want overworked the bullpen because we've seen. It's great that they have so many log men but. There's only so many innings that a bullpen can pitch and if you pitched three innings or even like one or two innings in a game today. Asking you to do the same thing tomorrow is you know it it's just not sustainable for a full season and I think. It's a very conflicting position to be because like I said, you do have you. Guys that are trying to pitch deep into games. But if they're struggling, you gotta take him out or if they're pitch count gets too high to take out but at the same time so many pitchers on the roster that you can trust and it's just. it's a really tough situation, but I mean especially with the injuries to the starting rotation I think that's like honestly the worst thing that could have happened to them right now because. You Know Pearson Matt Shoemaker all out with injuries and it's just. It's tough because now you have guys that needs to take a take over those idiots like I said, the last you want is to have a situation where you rely on having an opener one, every x number of days because. The like I say you should do not have the amount of pitchers that you normally would and trading is going to be a lot harder It's it's tough. I feel like if a guy is throwing well, you got to keep them in for as long as you can. If he struggles different story but it just. It's definitely hard to watch especially if the guy's doing well and he's out of the fifth dating because there's ninety, two it if you're bullpens taking over nearly half of that every day or every other day every whatever eventually they're going to burn out and you just that's not sustainable for a playoff run but be just played baseball that's not that's not sustainable. You cannot rely on your bullpen that much and expect good results every time I mean it's been pretty good so far I mean we've seen Anthony Bass's kind of stepped away from the closer role limit the pitching. In those situations as much but I've I've seen tomato AJ. Cole they've looked pretty good but like I said eventually. The overworking of the players will start to get to them and I just really hope we don't get to that point but. I mean we'll see what Charlie's able to do today. Obviously. He. Took pitcher out but it just there's only so many innings that. Relievers can can pitch in and it's just it's I would like to see him kind of ride the hot handle a bit more often. If you're GONNA to complain. pitchers not being available out of the bullpen like we saw. More towards the start of the season not so much now, you can't just keep pulling. Starter after five innings when they've only gone eighty pitches, I think of you mentioned Mashing megajoule Jacob UN. Ivanic's he was coasting only at about eighty pitches tanks from the game. brockie comes in closer gives up to runs. Game is tied for for Bluejays. Go onto lose one. That's what I think of when I think of Charlie monitory removing all these pictures from the game early, and I don't know if it's Charlie Montoya's fault if it's a directive from the front office from the high performance, department whether it's Pete Walker. Having this influence, but clearly, this is not working. You know it's a short season. pitchers are at higher risk for injury. Yes. You can't just keep pulling them after five innings. pitchers are supposed to go six innings, seven innings when they are pitching strong and if they have low enough pitch count, just keep them in the game. I don't understand why you pull them early. I just don't get it and it's really frustrating to watch the Blue Jays worn down. And struggling in terms of pitching depth, and then at the same time, you find someone who works find someone who's doing well, who's at eighty pitches through five innings and Charlie. Manteo pulls him from the game. So it's incredibly frustrating to watch and. Again I. Don't know why. But that's part of the reason going back to a earlier conversation with the bluejays are looking for pitching and why they need pitching So I think we're gonNA see the blue. Jays. Lose more games because of pitching as it goes on pitching gets more and more tired and again I got a pin that directly on who have who, whoever is making the decision to remove pitchers early whether it be Charlie Montoya whether it be p Walker whether it be. The high performance department I do not understand it at all. So it's put the Blue Jays tough spot. They've got the injuries. They've got all the worn down pitchers in the bullpen They are now looking on the the trade market for pitchers but I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens if the Blue Jays can continue the success and the ad a week ago when they had their six game winning streak, they can carry it over find that magic again. and. Make the postseason it would surprise me. doesn't sound like you're surprise you guys but. Not as much. Not as much but. You Know I. Think you know if we have to look back on this Jacob definitely put us in our place while if he's right so far he's Pretty close to the prediction. But I, know you're still a little bit more pessimistic I'm a little bit more optimistic not overly sold yet, but I, know Jacob is. Back on the bandwagon for the playoffs. So that's good though Jacob because you did call it I. So I would give you credit if it ended up happening but. Like I said, building blocks as last week, get the five hundred there. Now now, you gotta start making a little bit more of a push if they're capable of it because now they're on the you know the now the right of the edge playoff spot. So it's a plaster looking like a decent chance as of now, but of course, still about a month of the season left so we're only about halfway through it's all connected the postseason race, the pitching. The decision to pull pitchers early, the injuries everything. Comes back to the Blue Jay winning or losing, and we'll see what happens the only thing that doesn't make sense this week. Is the deal for Daniel Vogel Block, and that's what's confusing all of us. But with that I think we'll conclude our episode for today. Thank you listen as always. We appreciate it and could just go ahead and give a rating on I to be greatly appreciated help spread the word but our podcast jazz you can also follow us on social media hat section one, thirty, eight cod or an instagram and twitter, and you can stay up to date with all our future. that. Stay safe and we'll catch. Well Maddix Colfax. Warren, spahn Nolan Ri- in Matthiessen Dizzy. Dean, Negro Lefty Grove was the Betas Pitcher Baseba-. Was the greatest pitcher Baseba-. was. The greatest pitcher baseball's ever no. Here come the big rain big train the game here come the Bay frame pig rain. Here come the big big train in the gay. Zor Johnson was his name.