Real Estate Boom and Supreme Court Ruling on Religious Schools
From radio, Vermont, it's the Dave Graham. Show on W. DV. It's your show. About, the people places and the issues that matter the most to you. Now. Here's your host Dave Graham. Good Morning Vermont. It is Tuesday the. Let's see the seventh of July two thousand and twenty in so glad to have you join us this morning. We were going to be talking about your range of topics. We often do on the day Graham. Show here VDB into starting off. We're going to talk about Vermont's. HOT REAL ESTATE MARKET WE HAVE A couple of people involved in the real estate industry in Vermont. It'll be joining us in just a moment after i. tell you what else is coming up on this show in the second half hour. We're going to be talking about actually. Another has another impact on individual real estate sales. We're kinda shaped. You keep your lawn in. We're GONNA be talking about the raise the blade campaign. It's an effort. To get folks to motor lawns in a slightly more environmentally friendly way, and we'll be talking about that in the second half hour. On. A portent US Supreme Court decision last week affecting. Public funding for religious schools. That's been an issue here in Vermont. There's actually pending litigation surrounding rice, Memorial, high school, and whether it that's a Catholic School of South Burlington Rice, Memorial, a the the question pending there is whether students from their kid enrolled in joined the enrollment program where they get college credits while still in high school. That requires the funding. There's been some worry about about that. public funding to religious schools well the. US Supreme Court decision issued a ruling last week relating to. Public funding for religious schools that. Up sure some folks evolved in the rice. Case are watching closely. We'll be speaking with three experts in the latter our the program about all that, but I wanted to get to our to realtors who are on the phone with us this morning. We'll talk about what's happening in. Vermont Real Estate Market Russ ingles is with remax all seasons realty. They offices in Lyndon Ville in the Newport and. We also have witnessed Mark Montross. WHO's with catamounts realty group based up in Colchester and gentleman. I wish you a good morning and thank you very much for joining me. While you. Wrestling me. Start with you because this this What the Intel I've been picking up actually originated up in the kingdom. Folks saying that there are a lot of a lot of purchasing going on. It's a pretty hot market right now and a lot of what's driving it our folks from. Down country who are thinking about? Maybe I should get out of the city where this cove nineteen pandemic is really raging, and go up to Vermont when I can, and have a place to go up there. Where it's a, it's a little calmer as far as the code goes and. Etc, what are you? What do you hear? What do you know? What can you tell us? Yeah I think you're very accurate with that There's a there's a fear with the. Pandemic, that's going on. People are want to be safe It's a lot like what we saw with nine eleven. People just want to call them where where they where they can have some peace of mind and in relative safety. And internally are driving the market. It's we're seeing. We're seeing things that are we haven't seen in, and since probably the mid the mid two thousand and are they the mid nineties so I should say and It's it's it's. It's really really busy. Give me an example of when you say we're seeing things we haven't seen since You know fifteen or even twenty five years ago, What things do you have in mind? I just properties that may have languished on the market longer are selling fast, or what see we're. We're starting to see where we were really kind of lagging behind a little bit of at least up in my area, and mark might have a different take on it over on his side, but we're starting to see. Lakefront properties that probably not as much pricing as just where they were priced nine move now I'll lakefront relief front now starting to become a premium and the only thing that's really keeping it from. From really really exploding is prices have climbed, but their their appraisals are lagging behind some of where where we need to get the prices to people are willing to pay. Appraisals are a little bit behind, but they'll catch up, but yeah. Lakefront is one area that we're. We're really starting to see. We're starting to see In at least in our area, we're starting to see homes and the mid twos to to mid threes to three seventy five are starting to become active again as well the more you move north though the prices are. are a little bit slower when you're down in Caledonia. County The Washington county's. you get a home price in those mid twos to mid threes, and there's a bidding war going on within within a short amount of time. Yeah, that's that's interesting and I are. Are they talking me little? You mentioned the appraisals and say they're lagging a bit Do you mean they're behind schedule? Wise, or is it more a matter of of the appraisers coming in, and not recognizing that there's a price premium out there maybe. Well. I think that the appraisers are just buried. There's no question about that. They're very me are they're working hard doing as many as they can do and and the end, and it's not a default of the appraisers far as what they're doing with values. We have people willing to pay, but they still have to have to have something to compare it to and. and they tend to lag three months behind or saul because they're using COMP sales They're using sales that have happened already, and that's what they're using. Compare the market too, but. right now. What what I'm finding? Is that advice? I gave two months ago. Isn't the same advice as what I've given to now I'm listening to place today that we started at to to to fifty. And then we went to who seventy five, and and now we're now we're at three hundred and I just don't advice started about seven weeks ago and the last little bit I, said well I. You know. Listen I think that we ought to be three. Three, hundred and we're GONNA be. We're going to be having some action on that pretty quickly so well. That's interesting. mark Montross with catamounts realty group Colchester. Are you finding that in that chickening county area that we're seeing the same sort of more heated, real estate market right now. and I'm curious about the comparison because Jitney County. You know usually the hottest part of Vermont all the time Are you seeing an impact from the this phenomenon of the cove, refugees or whatever? We are seeing definitely a increase in home sales, especially with the first time homebuyer market, and we're also seeing those coming in from other parts of the state, and they're looking to move here, so you have definitely last four years have been. Very active and certainly this year. The beginning. Burgee. Quarter and Cova came along. And there was some speculation by some that will emerge from. The buyer's market, but end up being just. It was almost like the floodgates oaken, and there was a surge in fire activity, so from our point of view and county. were seeing any homes on the market? Letter literally receiving, Re Four, I heard one instance of thirteen authories within a matter of days going over asking price. Certainly around that might. Have to work with. Many buyers have written many offers. Definitely are seeing it and. I. Don't see that changing anytime soon. I also agree with Russ Bats. You're definitely a spike in. Today's homes outpacing historical values when it comes to pass appraisals. Somebody is I'm looking at and advising. People believe that historical data isn't really supporting however, consumer demand who's driving it so. Definitely see him from impact. I I've seen from I actually this contract. Yesterday for a couple of California bought a place literally sight unseen just closed on one. Last week the same scenario that people bought it coming again from other state by cyclops scene. and. I as if you're advising fire What do you think about buying sight unseen? Is that wise? With today's technologies, we have the ability to do videos. Some of us have matter for cameras. or able to scan inside the house. And you have facetime technology, so there's a lot of ways that we can facilitate people seeing the property without physically being there that gives them great details. Feel confident, and and this is not anything new three anyways I've helped. People purchased properties in the past that will not physically able to get to the property prior to closing so when you as technologies zoom while other people to make that functional. Interesting and Russ, Russ Angles and what are you finding out? There are a lot of folks Are they are they buying property sight unseen or just relying on the electronic methods of looking at a property? You know what you what you see up there. Well I I like mark I, E, we're. We're doing a lot of zoom tours. Youtube tours stuff like that and You know we're. We're advising. Our buyers Hey. Let's not worry about the color of the wallpaper you know that can be changed you know. Tell us tell us Tell us we were really what you're looking for. And what's your concerns and will highlight those in the in the tours that we do and we're going to give you the best view that we can you know. We are professionals in our business. We're listening where. What the consumer wants and yeah. One time I had nine nine properties. Under contract sight unseen, and every one of them were went very well without a hitch I mean it's it's it's it's it's it's nerve-racking. Put You on your game when you're being the expert and really paying attention to what your buyer wants you're you really WANNA. Make sure you're doing a good job and making sure there's no surprises of as any concerns You know you're recommending when asked you're recommending great home inspectors that you've worked lower than pass and speak their language a little bit. Everybody has their own style and so yeah, you're yeah, we're seeing. We're seeing a lot of that. And and for the most part is. It's going very very well. I think it just goes to show to that as an organization. HOW ADAPTIVE! We are two changing times, and how our value continues to be extremely important. With changing conditions that. Really does a great job on health. Schuler is both on the buyer side of the seller side, function and challenging ties. The that's the Vermont Association realtor degree to right and mark. You're an officer with them or board member or LOVE THE VICE PRESIDENT! Okay, that's and I want I. Want to ask you mark also I I asked Ross earlier Do you have any sense of what percentage of the people in your kind of portfolio of buyers right now? The people who are looking around with you are would cloud sorta classify as Kobe refugees people from down country. Maybe you are looking to get up to Vermont, because they feel, it's safer and CETERA. By personal. With. Buyers it's mainly those that are first time homebuyers. Okay flew. Either don't see the value in further renting and with today's rates that they could be paying the same. The mortgage as would be renting and yeah, I think. Maybe, confined to small quarters department. They certainly changed people's attitude of having more space. by. or I think younger buyers are understanding realizing the value of homeownership as opposed to renting and blocked to take a down jacket with conditions. The are as interest rates being really positive that they're. They're seeing it and wanting to bands of it. and Re Muscle Sixty forty on my side over here as far as sixty percent of Colbert buyers as you've as you've outlined probably sixty forty, but I agree with mark very much. The first time buyer is is much driving. The market is we have a lot of local first time. homebuyers because of the low interest rates and and we're pulling a lot of people out of at least I am. I'm pulling a lot of people out of the on the West Coast. -FORNIA and the Portland. Areas WASHINGTON STATE IDAHO Colorado and and they've They've. They've grown to love politics out there, but can't afford to live there anymore, and they do like mark market over there and chatting and county, and what's happened, is they get they get over there and they get priced out of the market a little, so they're starting to push over east into the into The MORRISVILLE areas and You know. They're used to driving an hour and a half two hours to work out where they're coming from. Going ten miles or they come over here and they drive into the Burlington market, the work market on our and a half or so and they don't mind that, but they can afford there, so they're kind of. They're kind of expanding. Expanding our market across the northeast, and and pushing up the price points as well, but the what I'm finding as well as the stuff that's pushing the the prices higher on the UNIN the luxury market tend to be the out of state who seem to have deeper pockets. Yeah Yeah Hey. Russell. I'm curious to know what what you run into with your buyers. When they encounter Vermont's broadband and cell phone technology. Well You know that's tough I mean. We have a lot of people now that are. Displaced workers that I don't think are ever going to go back into the office setting and one of the requirements that they want are the broadband I'm still a little disappointed in our in our politics that we started this conversation about ten years ago to to have broadband throughout the state certainly chicken and county areas, and it's it's getting pushed over, but certainly the nine county areas a have that a little bit better, but. Still, you get up in the into Franklin. And Franklin counties up out area, and they're running into the same thumbs that we're having memorial and Orleans and Actress County that we just don't have. We don't have the communications that we need I. Look at some of the smaller towns that years ago, made decisions hard with being one of them made a smart decision about putting in A. A tower to for cell phone and data, and that turned that town into a sleepy, little counting, probably used to get picked on a little bit into an economic stronghold in the in the in the kingdom, because I don't know how many deals I've come out of the Wilderness in enfold into Hardwick and saddened some park lawn and closed up the deal that I hadn't been. Out of service for two hours certainly add is a huge huge huge something to stage should be really really focusing on to to push them. that broadband into all corners of the state. Your Voice as we've had a few discussions on the on the day, Graham Show here in Wd FM and am amount about the broadband and. Cell, issues and the state, and it's still. It's still kind of amazes me sometimes when I drove drive up. I in my period if I'm enough to the kingdom. Take fourteen through hard work in most of the way up through East Gallison Woodbury. I don't have cell, service and Yourself because that's all you're doing. Pretty much pretty much but it. Makes me think wow, will we a third world country or something? Because of this is the main road from? The state capital to one of the principal towns in a neighboring county. And kind of go. That's weird. No Cell Service yikes anyway. So Mark I'm wondering if if you are. If! You're feeling like. This real estate boom that you're you're experiencing right now. Just got to be nice thing for you. I'm you're getting you? Guys are both hall into commissions and stuff, and and so that's got to be a good thing a. what do you see for the future I mean the code crisis sort passes. Do you think things will come back down again and? Do. You think it's going to stay hot for a while for quite a while now. Question, to ask I wish I had that crystal ball relief to know what the future brings is probably already retired by now however I do see it continuing to stay straws throughout the year, because obviously I'm not seeing any reduction in buyer demand coming out and one thing that I am starting to see now which we haven't seen a lot in the past is a lot of older people that now that had these bigger homes or starting to actually. Thinking about downsizing so now we're seeing more homes coming on the market that are larger people that are into nesters and that's. Basically kind of A. Log So to speak where those that are in the middle looking to upgrade. or now able to see inventory, come on to come and talk to the bigger house, which is intriguing up. For the first time homebuyers Babe, get into those entry level home so I do see cup. positive flow in that aspect I mean do continue to see definitely a good strong market and the real estate area for the next. You know at least for the next six months. After that you know who knows, but for now it definitely remains very strong. For funding note that. Giving us a strong market and a lot of first-time homebuyers funded the things I do know this is. Is People really need to to take that first stepping and get your for mortgage that way? They know what they're looking for a much. Sir Qualified for which programs they can qualify for us, so they can figure out some of their expenses, including your closing costs to make sure that when they do find this home ready to on it, and that be stressed out because of that quite sure. WHAT THE DEAL! Yeah I get you now. Let me ask you about the a about affordability. Mark and I wanted to ask you because Jitney counties as one of the more expensive areas to live in Vermont, and and if not the most and when you have these young, these young folks who come to you Let's say it's a young couple and the bottom of the market is you know two hundred, fifty, three, hundred thousand somewhere in there. Are they typically? Do they typically have incomes that can support that or is that? Is that driving too many people? Bought them. The market threshold is driving, too. Many people are just out of the market because his salaries aren't aren't keeping pace. Honestly, one type of working with definitely can't afford it. That is the nice piece I'm seeing is that? The income dates is very good where they actually can afford to get into that market. Have seen some that. If as restless saying. They're now willing to travel for lunar for route so in the past this area. Often seen that thirty minutes with kind of cut off time for people willing to try. To give me more. Now I'm starting to see that. Expand to forty five fifty minutes sometimes an hour. which kind of puts them in Franklin County area? And into the dial area in other areas that to make it more affordable that they can't purchase a home. The most part I'm seeing dad again. They're still looking to be within that thirty to forty minutes time line drive purposes. A Russell. I'm wondering you know the other thing that people occasionally talk about around here in terms of. People from the seaboard moving up to Vermont to escape whatever whatever threats they perceive down there whether it's covert Y- The other thing I've heard people chatter about you know I. Don't know if it's if you ever hear it from buyer, this stage of history or whatever, but you know there's a lot of concern when people think about climate change, and so on about rising sea levels. I grew up right on the ocean down in Massachusetts. Five minute walk from the water and and you know I. I mean worse case scenario. What if the ocean levels is a little bit? Some of those towns down? They're going to be needed to be evacuated. Basically at least parts of our and our. Does anybody ever come up to you and say I want to buy some property? Vermont's that I you know if I if I do if we do face that eventuality, have someplace to go. I I we used. We hear that Samo were. Yeah, it's it's really the fear factor of Cova Dad really drives it I mean. Certainly, certainly, climate change has you know comes into the conversation and but I'll tell you You know it's it's pretty hard to. I've learned a long time ago that you're not going to overcome anybody's fear. If somebody's fear of something it seems to drive the market certainly climate change does come into it. another thing another reason another reason why we we do, have people come up here. They just can't believe how nice for Montor Sar they they really you know. I have a little thing that I. I tell people and say listen you know we really don't care about your religion, your politics or your sexual orientation color of your skin or or anything about all we care about your just a nice person and say hi, I'm Rawson. How are you and I'll get more? Who multiday showings and we'll send somebody down to a restaurant in L.. Come back to rush. You absolutely positively correct about that. We got talked into the neighbor next to us, and we gotta get this day through we get. We're going out for dinner with them tonight. So it's it's the the culture of the people that we have up here, but certainly Certainly, the climate change is brought up. More I think right now. The it's GonNa driving the market Yeah, sure it, and as mark shed low interest rates, first time, homebuyers, and as long as interest rates stay with Iraq It's GonNa It's certainly one percentage. Point makes a difference between somebody bill, the buy a home at two, hundred or two, hundred and fifty thousand for sure. In rest is there is there much sort of folks buying land and saying you know I'll I made build later or something. It's starting to get there I think the as these prices start to climb We've had enough inventory. Although tight, we've had enough inventory and the per square foot. Cost has been cheaper to buy existing versus to buy land supply your home as as we start to run, burn through his inventory. We are starting to see people starting to pick. Pick up land and and to build a and again the communist busy enough where I just working with some folks now they're just barely put home under contract to board. Some of the land that they had they were going to build. They come up this last weekend. Who a contract with their builder and said well, we might as well look at this one. One home and they We were able to put the deal together. on no one home that bordered their land because It was cheaper to buy that property still then versus to build what they're talking about, so it's going to get there again. Like mark says we don't know what this market is going to do. you've been waiting for. We've. We've been waiting for ten years for there to be a crushing on price to push prices up higher there there. Are they going to stay there We'd like to think that they are. Maybe they're gonNA. That's GONNA be the new norm, but again show me that crystal ball and I'll retire tomorrow I. We're not quite sure what is going to do. Yep Okay well, that is. That is the voice of Russ ingles. He is Up in the northeast kingdom, he has he. Is, with remax seasons really based in. In LIEU IN LYNDON VILLE LINEN BILL IN NEWPORT, and my other guest has been marked Montross of catamounts realty group based in Colchester and interesting conversation about the current state of the real estate market in the northern half of Vermont. Gentlemen thank you very much for joining me this morning. It's great chatting with you. Thank you. Mark and I. WanNa take marketing the VA and all. Senator Vince. helped earlier in the year and I. WanNa thank him as well. All right, very good, thanks gentleman. Hey we are heading into a bottom of the hour break for some CBS News at a couple of words from our sponsors before we get there. I wanted to mention that we have a news conference scheduled just after eleven o'clock with Governor Phil Scott, the top state officials today they have changed their schedule up the. We're doing a Monday Wednesdays and Fridays. Going to Tuesdays and Fridays, and of course, today's Tuesday so we'll be hearing from governor. Another top state officials about the response to the Cova Nineteen crisis just after eleven o'clock. Meanwhile stay tuned for more of the day. Graham show coming right up after this break. We're opening upstairs of the warrants store following CDC guidelines, we will allow three people at a time from ten to four Friday Saturday and Sunday eleven to three Monday and Thursday until further notice, or you can email Lori. L. O. R. I. AT WARREN STORE DOT. com to make an appointment. There's lots of great summer clothing fifty percent off outside and new spring merchandise upstairs. Please wear a mask. We have disposables and we will be selling organic wired ones from product. Think tank. We'd love to see you. STAY SAFE MAINSTREAM Warren village. It's the Dave Ramsey show. W DVD. We are back and. We'll be talking about a new campaign to. Try to get folks to take care of their lawns in a slightly more environmentally correct manner we have with us. Chris Stefanik are Stephanie. I'll get the proper pronunciation in just a moment She is with the UVM extension and she'll be talking to us about this this topic in the next few minutes here on the day Graham. Show we also. are going to be speaking with Laurie Fisher of Lake Champlain Committee and The that's interesting aspect. Y somebody from Lake champlain committee will it turns out that? The way we treat our our lawns enter yards. Really does have a big impact on what goes on downstream in for an awful lot of northern Vermont downstream means. On the way to Lake Champlain so Let's we're. We're still trying to reach. Laurie Fisher and hoping to connect with her. It's just a couple of minutes, but the meanwhile I do believe we have Chris and Chris. YOU ME! Of Your last name I missed that so far. Yeah you actually hit it right on the second one I say stepping up. Stepanek okay, and you are with you, vm extension and Is this This raise the blade campaign and interesting name there is this a fairly new thing now. Yeah we've been doing it for a couple of years, so we're trying to get the word out a little bit more broadly. Into the beginning part of the project we actually surveyed people to understand what kind of lawn care practices people in the lake shipment basis. We're doing so that we could better informed outreach that we are doing now so some of the things that we've learned is, is that about seventy five percent of people in the watership at dream selection plane actually cut their grass shorter. Shorter than the recommended length that we are recommending, which is three inches in length, and we know that a number of folks are cutting their grass between two and three inches in length, and we know that the motivations for them to cut their grass to that longer length with the pick for the glass, if it helps the environment, and if it would save them time. And two of those three things we can, we can work with in terms of just saying hey, just cut it to that longer length It's good for the environment, and it's good for the grass, the the third one that it takes time as a little bit trickier for us to to get at that. We have some ideas for how to suggest practices. People can do that well. Wow? That's interesting to get to that because I was actually. I'll go there first because I was just thinking. Generally. If I if I get my haircut shorter I, have to go to the barber shop less often, right? Yeah so could. We have three practices that were recommending news to cut the grass to that three inch link that a minimum the second one year. The sticking point is it's it's not to cut more than a third of the length of the blade at any one time, and so that's where you end up. Having to cut more often is to not let it get so long that you'll cutting like fifty percent of the blade length when you're doing the mowing and so that's where it takes you kind of the same amount of time or at least. Possibly even more time getting up there to cut to to make sure that you're cutting just a little bit, and the reason for that is we want people to leave the clippings on the ground you compose because that helps to form health and soils 'cause that those clippings the short ones will be oppose quickly, and they'll make healthier soils which will end up job more water which is the ultimate goal. Goal of all of this is if people have longer grass. The longer grass can have longer routes and water that when it rains, comes down, it can soak into the earth more easily, and when you leave this clippings to decompose it forms what's called more organic matter in the soil and soils that have more Ganic matter and hold more water, so the ultimate goal is if we grow the grass longer. We can then have better ability to. Let water sinking to Earth and less off into the streams and into the lakes, and therefore we can protect the water quality because it's the earth is then able to use it for the glass group then and go down into the water table for groundwater recharge. That's interesting so essentially essentially, what a big part of the Big Ingredient of this project the raise. The blade effort sounds like we're. We're essentially trying to slow runoff as I write. Watt Light. Yes. And and obviously you know. RUN OFF into Lake champlain. into the streams feeding lake, champlain, sometimes streams feeding largest dreams, and then in the lake, champlain, or you know other major bodies of water on the eastern side of Vermont the Connecticut River has been the has been much under discussion as being. affected. Negatively by certain practices in by humans in our environment, obviously and and this is true bodies of water all over the world, really and but in Vermont of course, Lake, champlain gets the headlines as our largest body of water in it it is one that has been pretty severely impaired overtime by by what we're doing up here on the land and so. Yeah, and what again we were hoping to get Laurie Fisher. From Lake, Champlain, committee as as as a guest on this segment of the Dave Graham, show we have not achieved the connection with her yet. But our folks are working on a back there. W THE EV and hope that we can get her on at least for the latter part of this this segment and but My guest is. Chris Stepanek she is with the UVM. Extension and Chris I wonder if you could tell me what are some of the public educational efforts? You are making to get the word out about tips for for for cutting your grass bit more environmentally friendly way. Something is A. Stuff on your website and so on. Yes, we are not. This is a product of multiple organizations, and so we have a website called lawn to lake dot org where there's information about this campaign which we call, raise the blade, and what one of the things that we're doing is we have business? That are working with us on this project, and they are mowing bear grass to three inches. we also have cards at each of the businesses that include the anti printers an echo and. Magic brewery and a number of other businesses, and so people who are interested in understanding these practices are can pick up A. Card from those businesses, they can also see what it looks like to have grasped known to three inches. we have signs like the election style signs of that they have on display at these businesses we also have a number of businesses that are working with us on a research project that compares grasping cut to two inches versus grasping cut just three inches of this summer, because Kobe the that project is on hold because of of safety. Reasons, but we have for the last three summers and you a Research that looks at two inches. Sorry about that. Versus. Three inches at places like a curtis lumber and main street, landing and Queen City Printers Inc and a few places here along Pine Street seeing that the grass is more drought resistant when it's cut to three inches versus the two inches. So you see it mostly at at this time of year when it's got really hot. And the grass is cut longer has those longer routes that could reach down a little bit further to get water and the grass cut shorter instead of glowing its roots longer. What it does is actually spend more of its energy growing longer so that it can so to synthesize, 'cause is out. Their mission in life is to create for itself so that it can stay alive and so therefore. If you cut it short it. Expands the energy. Making, more grass blades that we see so that it can create its own food and then store that for the tough periods which would be now when it's hot on over the winter when it was dormant, I'll store sugars in through route. To use for energy. Oh, in those tough time periods, so these businesses were seeing the two inches versus three inches again at this time of year you can see a three inch. Do another little bit better. To get past these drought periods. Interesting in I. I would expect that a long keeping your grass. A little bit longer makes it a slightly better carbon sink to that right. Yeah I don't know too much about that possible. I see okay and when? When people are thinking about this and saying okay, I want to keep grass three inches. Instead of two inches very practical. Question becomes well. How do you adjust your lawnmower to to as you put raise the blade there are. There are a adjustment mechanisms on on just all lawnmowers. Ritu yes most. Push styles of your gas powered motor on the front wheels, and on the back there is a little lever that you can squeeze towards the the wheel itself, and then shifted to the left or the right to to leave A. The deck of the lawn, MOWER or down. You have to be both on the front wheel on the back wheel. that's. One of the things I alluded to earlier about that. We have to have people going out there. A little bit more often one thing that I did as a new homeowner without a lawnmower I invested in low botic lawnmower, and so that goes, and does it all on its own on that particular Martin Luther dial that you set it. Whichever size started length of? Grass cutting. You want to do so. I can set that between two inches in four inches and often. and then for other mowers. Following instructions on the manual to to understand how that individual more with be adjusted We're working with One of the as hard hardware here in South Burlington They are helping folks. There's if signs on the MOWERS that they're selling that they can. adjust help. People adjust the mowers that people are purchasing so that they understand how the mowers and numerous. They're getting work for this it, okay. Hey, let's get a couple of callers into the conversation. Let's go to I. BELIEVE IS JIM in Rochester. Tim Chester Good Morning. I'm just wondering. Is this a rural or urban study? Good question to the two inches versus three inch study. You are focusing in Burlington because it's easy access for the. Researchers. Who are doing it? However, the what we know is that lawns get bigger as you get out of the city, and so the impact can be bigger where people who have larger lawns can. Also, go their grasp three inches, because the same principle applies where we weren't soil to become healthier the. Become longer. Water the runoff to infiltrate into the ground, so the more people we can have doing it outside of the city the better. Because they're bigger, so it's happening over a larger area. So so it's about runoff going into the lake. Correct exact okay. One hundred promote that. So so sometime in June. Vermont digger had a report that Burlington released another one point, four million gowns with sewer into Lake Champlain. How many frigging rule Vermont. Lawns. Would it take to cut the three inch instead of the two and a half that I've been cutting for thirty five years to make it look better. Take to make up that one point four million. That was dumped by the sewer plan. For how many blondes it would take, but there are certainly are. There's challenges in in many ways and the thing they were trying to you. Would education is? Everybody has a part to play and in Burlington, certainly knows they have a part to play in making those. Accidental releases to the lake be stopped and each one of US homeowners has a responsibility to try to do it. We can't as well. Eight, if more people would leave the rural people along, and just concentrate on Franklin County and leave us alone, thank you. gotcha point in thanks for the call. Let's go to Donna Nel more. Dorning days I have a question for your guest as far as mulching mowers concerned. I bought a bought a new more here. three years ago which I can use as a just a regular more or as a mulching mower to I'm just wondering what your guests things. Of whether that is an advantage, as far as the environment is concerned or not, my situation here is I've got a long this mostly cabinet soil, which is not really what you want for grass, and that was one of the reasons I wanted the motion Moore's try to save as much of that in grinded up as much as fine as I could all the the ultimately. It'll go it or improve this oil. I'm just wondering what her opinion on all of that is. Totally think you're on the right track and mostly lower is exactly the perfect thing. Like you said, you're grinding up smaller helping that. He compose, and when it does that well, it can make. Increase soil organic matter and soil is gonNA. Be Able to hold more water, so you're on the right track for sure. That's all we won't let it all. Thank you very much make you've been called the. Have Laurie. Fisher now and Laurie. I don't know if you heard the last couple of calls but I guess the call just immediately previous. The Don there was talking about Kind of another case of what aboutism you know we're. We're we. We want to address a problem that be might build address in some gradual or incremental way, and then he says well. What about the big sewage dumped from basically an accidental situation in Burlington nobody likes to see a city dump. It's raw sewage into into lake champlain. That's a bad scene there, but just for the logic of the thing I have to ask if you're going to have a city, you have that kind of an accident. It's wastewater treatment system. What is a better situation? Having that happened plus. Less environmentally friendly lawn care going on all over the state or that have having that happen without the less with a with more environmentally friendly log care going on all over the state. What do you make of that? Well I I. You know it's not an either or I think we know we basically we need to improve to avoid this kind of failures and overflows in our system but healthy lawn care to the extent that you've got run off healthy lawn care. It's going to help with that and I think that you know we have to. Think about each our our individual roles in in this effort to would do an nutrient loading and pollutants going into our waterways, and that's what the lawn care. Program is all about these their steps that everyone can readily take to. If you have a lawn or any property that you care for there are actions that we can all individually tape, and at the same time we really need to support investments in our wastewater treatment facilities to ensure that they are upgraded and bad. Can handle the flood. So not not an either or I think. The key words right at the top of your answer to the question then. Let me Let's see I think we need to go to a brief break here on the day. Graham show on wd E FM and all. We don't need a break. Okay, apologies. let's Let's just continue with. Let's see if we have another caller on the line of leave Forbes from from Carinthia's calling in. Loop. There I guess. Everyone likes a pristine lawn and subplot Blah and everything else. What consideration is involved in? Those are. Are Monarchs various other things to survive on red clover and various other. That's that's a really good question for us, so let's let's go. Let's go. Let's go to Laurie on. On on that one as well Lori. What do you know about about the effects of lawn, care and lawn mowing etc on pollinators. Think part of our the circuits here is Having diverse vegetation on any property that you own and lawns. Are there really monoculture so We're not from loading The lawns per se, but if you do have a lawn were noting how to keep, it is as. Healthy as possible and and help it absorbed nutrients but having. Diverse Vegetation Knicks on your lawn and you know is is really good so having red clover in the mix not just grass is a sign of a of a healthier system, so that's another thing that we're trying to promote it same time emphasizing what the the cutting levels and cutting your lawn. If you have it to three inches, serving those clippings on and removing only the grass weighed, but. More vegetated more diverse vegetation buffer systems with native vegetation and also serving pollinators, really good thing an important thing for. Anybody, who owns property to to consider when you're thinking about how you manage how you? You the land that you own. and I'm wondering Chris Definite. Maybe you could, maybe you can. Help us with this one, but I hear occasionally from friends, and even some family members that The whole idea of lawns is kind of maybe. outdated in something we need to get away from. What are some alternatives if somebody has a? Owns home. They bought ten years ago and they're tired of mowing the lawn and they really have Su- questions about whether a lawn is the best way to go and terrorists have just what you want for your environment on your property Are People transitioning away from lawns and and. What are some strategies there so? Yeah, so there's some some beautiful strategies actually speak to the previous callers question about pollinators roses to install what's called the rain garden, so that would be depressed area in your lawn complaint plants that are flowering plants that liked to have their feet, a little bit wet, and so you can direct water into that area. Moving that area from being grass, and allowing it to be a landscape area of. Flowers and other plants. There's also the option you plant trees, and those will also be absorbing water helping in a similar way of what our campaign raise. The blade is talking about and again. The size of your grass, a third option in one that you'll hear about sometimes when people have shoreline properties in trying to minimize the amount of open area that is exposed to the shoreline for minimizing erosion. You can have a walking. Patsy might choose to have sin. Native Grasses in most of your yard. Then go a pass where you often want to be your want to walk. And that can help to minimize the amount of work that you're doing. Giving pollinators some extra flowering. Plants to? Nourish them and also. You Beautiful, That's that's interesting might have to devote a segment of the show. Sometimes this idea that I know some people promote their of actually you know shifting away from lawns and having having yards go to sort of more natural, less manicured, look and environment, and so on and I'm just sort of curious about it's. Not just come on grass now. Come on, folks. But. Definitely yes, or to reviled these places and to provide greater diversity in the vegetation that will also hold nutrients and and hold the soil, but also provide better habitats of getting at that question about the pollinators, but also for for wildlife as well. Fascinating and I'm wondering lorry in in terms of the. Runoff into Lake champlain and so on, people think about the their yards lawns give us a couple of other. Tips for minimizing your own impacts on on runoff into the lake. I mean it sounds like a healthier lawn is something that will help. Are there other steps? Homeowners needed need to take just to to try to reduce the amount of. Pollution heading forward heading downstream. Most sure and Chris touched on this earlier just about the rain. Gardens DEDICATED BUFFER STRIPS WANNA. Think about that lawn as a sponge and a you're a you're or that landmass as a potential for sponge to absorb one and nutrients and so by. Rain, gardens that depressed Galea's that he can plant with the diversity of plants that would absorb things rather than half it runoff, particularly running off onto hard surfaces we are. It's not going to get absorbed, and it will just go untreated into waterways so anything that's going to help absorb. The nutrients and the water is going to be a value. Add on your properties so planting trees, the buffer strips of diverse vegetation and then WanNa think native to and you WanNa think. Planting a diversity. Of Plants so that. You. Don't how again a monoculture system like lawn. The all those things will help you the rain gardens. Rain barrel to of to catch the water. That's running off from the hard areas on your rooftop anytime. We pay things over in terms of the sidewalk, a a driveway a A walking path or you rooftop. You were limited you. You're not allowing absorption so rain barrel will catch was coming off the rooftops, and you can use them for your garden. You can use them for your plants in. It's been pretty dry so far and I'm in my my rain barrel on using to water new planting trees shrubbery, Cetera. Laurie Fisher I got to interrupt you there and. Let. Folks know that we are about top of the hour and out of time for the segment I. WanNa. Thank Laurie Fisher of the Lake Champlain Committee as well as Chris Stephanie of the UVM extension for being my guest this morning on some environmental improvements, you can make in lawn care. Thank you very much for your for your time and information this morning. Top of the hour break for some CBS News. Let's go to Let's go to that. We'll be back shortly. Folks, we'RE OPENING UPSTAIRS AT THE WARREN STORE FOLLOWING CDC guidelines. We will allow three people at a time from ten to four Friday Saturday and Sunday and eleven to three Monday and Thursday until further notice, or you can email Lori L. O.. R. I. AT Warren Store. Dot Com to make an appointment. There's lots of summer clothing at fifty percent off outside and new spring merchandise upstairs. Please wear a mask. We have disposables and we will be selling organic wired ones from product think-tank. We'd love to see you stay safe mainstream Warren village. Now back to the nape. Graham show on Wd, FM and am. Sustained with US folks into the second hour of our program on this Tuesday morning July seven. Twenty twenty and Peter King CBS News joins. US Good Morning Peter Hi. You have a couple of interesting stories today. All the coronavirus stories always pretty much top story of the day in recent months, but you're also talking about. So first of all, let's go to the coronavirus situation. and I understand where you are in Florida. It is not good well. It's not good. We had more than sixty three hundred new cases reported yesterday. We are waiting for today's numbers. and the interesting thing here is that the age of people getting sick. He's dropping dropping dropping further evidence that you know this latest surge which caused by people partying like it was January when things started opening up Memorial Day weekend, younger people going Mars restaurants having big parties. those kinds of things, so the median age is in the Mid Thirties, but The governor told us yesterday that. Most of the people who are getting sick right now. seem to be around age twenty one, so you know they're not wearing masks. They're not They're not. Doing social distancing, and as I said they're partying like it's January and not in the middle of pandemic. So that's a big problem here and it's A. It's been a big problem in. Other southern states like Texas and Arizona Out West in California where they have rolled back a number of the rules and they've done. That's individual communities. They've done that here, too. Now, is there any talk of words or actions being taken? I have trouble keeping track of overall. The different states are doing but. Some of them, actually saying now whoops. We opened up too soon. We get a close up again well. Not Quite there, but you know we've gotten kind of close to that. A couple of instances there have been rollbacks in California where they've for evidence, somethings like indoor dining. That sort of thing taxes is rolled back a bit and now as a face mask requirement, Greg Abbott the governor had resisted that for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks here in Florida well. The bars are shut down, but they're no longer allowed to sell alcohol for down service, so they may as well be shut down. and a number of communities have put their own rules into effect. Miami Dade has rolled back a lot of the a lot of the dining options there and said. No more inside seating. In fact, they were going to prohibit outside seating then change their mindless late last night because outside, it's okay. or at least. Risky. Yeah, that's my understanding. Is that is if you are do outside activities? You're actually better off than and you know. That brings to mind the whole comparisons of trying to make a couple of weeks back about the The rally president trump was hosting Tulsa versus outside demonstrations in the George Floyd's death, and and it turned out. It seems that there. The rally was riskier proposition than than the. The protests and and one of the big things people point to in that regard is just that the protests were basically all outside and Rally of course was in that arena. A lot of the protesters were wearing face masks. That's true to. Arena in Tulsa or took a look at Some of the activities that trump had this past weekend like almost nobody was wearing face masks indoors at Tulsa or outdoors at Mount Rushmore or DC and yeah, it's less risky outside. If you're still in close proximity to somebody and people were sitting next to each other at all those events. It can still spread. Doctors said that so you know Yeah, they're. They're able to said he got necessary risks and will find out if that comes to pass. For sure he I wanted to check in about baseball, so that was on the list of areas. You're covering today and. Tell us what is going. Are we having I guess it wouldn't be Spring Training, but summer training right now or something right now. Well, yeah, two of the camps are shutdown, though because the both the Astros and national said they were concerned because they weren't getting. Their test results back in a timely manner, and they've already had players test positive. There have been a number of players and personnel who tested positive all over the sport and. And there are players who have expressed doubt that they should be playing this season because of that. You've already had some stars like David Price. Opt Out. Nick marquesses opted out of the season. Some of the nationals of opted out, but those really are are among the biggest names you've had stars like Kole Calhoun. The diamond backs Freddy Freeman of the braves. Joey Gallo of the Rangers have all tested positive for for Cova night, themes and General Manager Mike Rizzo the nationals. Basically railed on MLB for the slowness of the tests MLB responded saying as of yesterday. More than ninety five percent of the tests are done. All those people tested are now being tested every other day, and the remaining number of outstanding tests were supposed to be completed yesterday as well so you know we'll see what kind of effect that has on the teams that have shut it down, but look. It's a scary. Scary situation and there are a number of players who are still all the Fed says to whether they really WanNa play this season. They don't WanNa take a risk of infecting their families, their children, their their spouses there are other players who seem to be okay and You know it'll be interesting to see how this unfolds in the next couple of weeks as they hopefully get back to play if it's safe. Yeah. I guess they're talking about an opening day. July twenty third game scheduled between the nationals and the New York Yankees in Washington from one understand, yes, and the giants and the dodgers play later that night out in Los Angeles and I know they're of interest where you are the red. SOX they will be at home hosting the Orioles. Not Thursday but on Friday the twenty four th. And what I mean! They're talking a sixty game season. That's going to be pretty odd. We're already going to be passed to the All star break which is typically would be about this week or so well. Game show that doesn't matter anymore. Yeah, are they? Just I mean I was GONNA ask. Are they thinking about an all-star break in September or something or Delete no, no, not not at all. They're already dealing with a pretty compressed timeframe and actually up here of playoffs here, so You know they're not gonNA. Take any CADA break. That's basically going to be sixty games in I. Think Sixty four days something like that. Yeah Wow. Okay, well I! Wish them luck I mean. I know that you know people love their baseball. Leave loved their other sports. You know the NBA's been trying to figure out a way back. And of course, the NFL season is just over the horizon. And all you gotta look at that stuff and just hope that these are these these activities and all the fan. The Games and PEOPLE WATCH THEM ON TV. It's a huge part of American life and it's it is. A the NBA. Teams are starting to to Disneyworld down here in Orlando today, but sixteen shutdown their practice. After. Their players had positive tests. So you know again I. It's a real wildcard and I. Don't think you can say with any. That this is all going to come off as planned and hope for. The most important thing is if they're gonNA do it do it safely. Yeah and don't just assume because you want to reopen or get things going again that. That that the covert GonNa make any any accommodations for you. That's that's what people kind of assumed about. Bars and restaurants opened again so the Kobe sorta has to go away, but guess what hasn't. Gets not magically disappearing as some people said that it would. Well there you go king, CBS News thank you so much for joining me this morning it's. Talking with you, thanks for having me on, and by the way you said hot and humid up there I heard how hot and humid. Own It's actually in this week it's been. Absolutely perfect has been like in the seventies not very humid. Last week we had some hotter ninety ish, and it's supposed to actually get up to around ninety again by Friday. But I know you're laughing at me. You know that because you're in Florida, we've been in the mid nineties with feels likes in the hundred, so you know what I remember Vermont. Able and I hope you guys get some of that cool weather and and hang onto it and all right. We're just GONNA. Dream about cover up. They're. Very good things. Okay you, too. We have been occasionally dipping into. Legal analysis here on the day Graham Show recently as the New York. US Supreme Court has been coming out with several key rulings recently this time of year when they them in the fruits of their labours appear, and sort sorta almost harvest, season or something for for big legal decisions out of the Supreme Court, because they are getting ready to go in the summer break in. They WANNA wrap up the business for the year so there issuing lots of big decisions recently, one came up last week. Actually might have an interesting impact here in Vermont it involves. Public funding. That ends up going to support students who are going to religious schools. Historically that's been a pretty fraught to. Process that when that has happened, it has resulted in. Legal cases over the years from people who argue that there shouldn't be any support for from the public from taxpayers for. Religious endeavors. You know the first First Amendment. begins with the words. Congress shall make no law. Respecting an establishment of religion meaning basically that unlike England, which has the Church of England and And historically got public support. The framers of the US Constitution and the author of the bill of Rights wanted to the office of the bill of rights wanted to make sure. that. There wasn't gonNA be any sort of state supported and state-sanctioned etc. Church state required as as religion is in has been some points in history we. The the framers didn't want that. They want freedom. For. Folks to to basically worship, as they wish to not have to support religions to which they did not adhere. And they're also at the same time. Just the next phrase Congress. Make a law respecting an establishment of religion. Or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, and that meant basically that folks were allowed to pursue whatever religious faith they wanted to or didn't want to at Sarah and. The The the balancing test, there's always been one that people who admire that part of the first. Amendment I think many of them. That the government's ideal position on the whole question of religion should be neutrality should be one in which people. Are To pursue their faith as they wish, but also don't get government support for doing so so when it comes when when we get into the realm of schools and occasionally parochial schools, religious schools want wants to participate in programs, benefiting abroad. Range of kids The question then becomes. Do they get to to they? Do do kids from rice memorial. Memorial High, school a Catholic, affiliated school in South, Burlington get to participate in a state funded program called dual enrollment in which the students from high schools around Vermont to enroll in college courses Get get some college credits out of the way for no cost to them. Nice State Program one which folks at Rice argued should be available to all students including there's. And others argued that no, in fact, because rises as a religious affiliated school They don't qualify for a publicly funded program like that while. Montana was decided last week by the US Supreme Court and. On a similar issue, there are some differences we'll talk about those and let. Let's get into some of the details here with three people far more expert than I and. Ask if I have gotten most of what they've been saying right so far Going to be talking to Peter Teach out of professor of constitutional law at Vermont Law School and Professor. Thank you very much for joining us this morning. Good Morning Dave. I'll try to help except pretty complicated area, but you've laid out. The basic ground rules pretty pretty helpfully I think. We also have Dan Richardson News our regular legal analyst on the day Graham Show. He's former president of the Bar Association and he is the very active attorney in my. Is helps us understand on our show quite often. What's going on in the Law Dan? Thanks, thanks for waiting in this morning as well. Short of great. Leader And finally mill more is the executive director of an outfit called the Vermont Association of. Independent, schools and He's a strong advocate for. Independent schools including religious schools participating to the extent possible in receiving receiving public aid, because these are these are kids, who, on these schools and so mill more. Thank you very much joining me. Inviting me. And so let me start with with you Mayo. 'cause I kinda to get your reaction first off. To this to this decision in the case of. Espinosa versus the Mayan Montana Department of revenue came out of the US Supreme Court last week and Do you think first off, are, are you? Are you elated? Are you intrigued? What's your reaction to the decision? And and and and are you hopeful that it might help your causing Vermont? Well. I approached this from a more factual basis. Dave rather than saying that I'm elated or disappointed I'm just interested in what it means for students in Vermont, and my is that of the. Fifty. Some odd districts that have school choice I think only perhaps fifteen or so of them are close enough to a religious school. You know within commuting distance that there might be some possibility. Of students going to a religious school, and out of those districts of roughly five hundred students are now being tuition so some small fraction of that five hundred students Potentially could take advantage of this if it holds up now I think it's still a matter of interpretation and professor teach out. We'll probably address this pretty directly that the Vermont Constitution and the US Constitution or somewhat different. but I think in terms of Vermont The impact is likely not to be very much at all. The fact is likely to be not a not very much at all. That's that's interesting Let me go to Peter Out Peter, do you? Would you agree with that analysis that we were expecting? Not much of an impact in Vermont, or do you think that there is some some element or elements of this? This new decision that could could have an effect here. Well. It's a little bit difficult to hear. What more mill more just shed of on on this line but I I'm taking it that you are summarizing his basic position. I think it's important. To start off by recognizing their two. Quite distinct constitutional provision that have. Relevance here one is the the religion provision in the United States Constitution. But there's also a provision in state constitutions. Including reminds that prohibit to one extent or another taxpayer dollars going to be used to support religious activities religious worship. Were they just indoctrination? one of the crucial differences between. The Espinoza case involving the Montana Constitution and Vermont. Situation is that the Vermont Constitution has a very different type of provision prohibiting the use of taxpayer dollars to support religious education or religious worship In Constitutional Law. The basic difference is the Montana probation is one very similar to thirty eight other state constitutions that absolutely prohibits. Any sort of taxpayer, a government aid to religious institutions based simply on their status as religious institutions. As under the Vermont, Constitution and Vermont. Provisions similar to. Provision and twenty nine other states. They basically provide that no taxpayer show be forced or compelled to ship work any form of religious worship or education that is contrary to the taxpayers conscience, so that's called a compelled support. Revision it doesn't prohibit across the board. Government aid to religious institutions were students attending religious institutions. It only prohibits being compelled to ship work religious. Religious Education and religious worship, so there's a very crucial difference between the Vermont. Constitution the Montana Constitutional provision that was involved in the espionage occasion. So, really it sounds like the Montana provision in this no aid. Parisian. I think you call it in an email to me a direct. The state government should or shouldn't do in this case. It should not and must not provide any any assistance to to the to the religious school in this in this kind of a case, and in in Vermont case. NO COMPELLED SUPPORT It really focuses on instead of if I'm correct the role of the taxpayer and and and you. You can't ask the ask a tax payer to. To help support a Religion he or she does not here, too. And I'm wondering. You know as a practical matter professor teach out. At. What is the difference here? Because it seems like all of all of Vermont's Vermont State, governments, activities, and every time it gives aid. Somebody is using taxpayer money. It's using money raised from tax, payers and so How does that not end you up in the same place where you're basically taking money from from? A taxpayer who may be does not support. The religious teachings that ended up being supported when the state does give some kind of aid to students at a religious school. Well there was an interesting -cation Vermont. I think it was ninety seven and back back in the last century, but not that long ago in which the town of Chilton objected to having to provide tuition support for students attending amount. Shame Joseph's in Rutland. And the United Excuse me the Vermont Supreme Court said the problem with the Vermont Law that requires towns to provide tuition to private religious schools. Is that there are no protections against connect spare money, being used to support actual religion, clashes or religion worship within those private schools, but if those protections were in place the Vermont, constitutional provision would not necessarily be violated. Because you wouldn't be supporting religious worship or religious education, you'd just simply be supporting types of education in those private religious schools. It was unrelated to religious education religious worship, so that's a line that both the United States supreme. Court and the Vermont Supreme Court have drawn in common that is. state laws that prohibit. Aid to religious institutions simply because they are limitless institutions based on their status. Are of questionable constitutionality on the other hand. State laws that say taxpayer dollars show not be used to fund religious. Religious Education religious worship might well be upheld as constitutional and I might say Dave that was based on the Vermont Constitution. which goes all the way back to the late. Eighteen hundreds, and at that time there was a strong feeling that it's almost a religious nature. Person's relationship to God is a personal one. person's relationship, his or her religion is a personal one, and it violates something really fundamental if somebody is required to support religious indoctrination and theology that you don't adhere to. That is that's really an interesting distinction there and it sounds like the if if has a class, or you know just picking. Rice because they're involved in this litigation currently, but I. If. They have a class in I. Don't know English poetry or something and and it has no religious content to speak of that state aid could go there but not not not to the school in general we're. or I mean it would have to be shown that it wasn't being used for religious purposes. Is that right? That's what the Vermont Supreme Court held and not in okay. I need to pause and take a brief break for some bottom of the hour news from CBS. Couple words our. And when we return, we'll be back with With Peter Teach Dan Richardson and mill more to have continue this discussion about. Public funding for religious schools. WE'RE OPENING UPSTAIRS OF THE WARREN store. Following, CDC guidelines we will allow three people at a time from ten to four Friday Saturday, and Sunday and eleven to three Monday and Thursday until further notice, or you can email Lori L. O. R. I. AT WORN STORE DOT COM to make an appointment. There's lots of great summer clothing fifty percent off outside and new spring merchandise upstairs. Please wear a mask. We have disposables and we will be selling organic wired ones from product think-tank. We'd love to see you stay safe. Mainstream warned village. newsradio WD FM and am now back to the day, Bram show. By guests are bill more of the Vermont Association of Independent Schools Peter Teach out. He's a professor of constitutional law. For my law. School Dan Richardson is. One of our. He's a regular legal analyst on the day Ramsey show, and is also a a former president of the bar. Association very active attorney in my appear Dan, WANNA. Bring you into the conversation here and ask you to give us your thoughts about this distinction between. And Vermont on the question of public support for that ends going to religious schools or students. Do I have it roughly right that that under the Vermont, legal system, the constitution and the support of the accord interpretations that it is permissible for the state, some state aid to go to programs at a religious school, which are not religious in nature themselves. You can imagine a I suppose a a program Let's say were the. Somebody wanted to support shop classes at the religious affiliated high school, and and the high school was able to say. We're not making any religious icons shop class. We're making tables and chairs, and maybe doing some drafting and electron or whatever Zach permissible under the robot system Dan. It is in professor. Teach at you, know obviously I think Described this very well, a what I can add is the Vermont Supreme Court actually has recently upheld this distinction in Taylor versus town of Cabot, which I? represented the town of cabin and that involves historic preservation grants. To preserve the united. Church of CABOT building at the town had had given in the supreme. Court found that that was did not violate compelled. Support caused because the preservation work was being done to the building instructor itself as a historic building, not to the sanctuary or to the religious components of the building, and it was willing to make that distinction and is very much the distinction that the US Supreme Court has done the case on which Espinosa is based or relies heavily upon is a case knows Trinity Lutheran in which the US Supreme Court found it to be unconstitutional to withhold funds from a Christian daycare for Money to refurbish the playground. It was a grant of playground refurbishment that. They were denied because they were religious institution, and this is I, think the distinction that a lot of The court really hinges upon which is. A religious institution shouldn't be discriminated against simply because it is a religious institution, so if it is a otherwise secular activity that does not involve religious Issues or indoctrination, or education? it should be you know, and just because they are religious entity doesn't shouldn't stop them from receiving, said public money if there's general public benefit that's consistent with the grant itself. and that seems to be where both the US Supreme Court in the Vermont Supreme Court is likely to to land on these going forward I think the other case that sort of the guardrail on the other side, is a two thousand four case that the US Supreme Court. ruled upon actually Chief Justice Rehnquist. Ruled upon it, and it was the lock case. Dealt with A scholarship To for for various colleges, somewhat similar to I, think the dual track program here in here in Vermont, but it was, it was denied because. The person seeking it was seeking it for religious a degree in religious holiday. You know beating training to become a minister and he wants to bring court said no, that's justified not to grant that because that would be basically the public paying to have a minister. Created, and that kind of direct contributions to the ministry are allowable to be outside of public funding to be stopped from being funded by the public, and so you know it's it's an interesting line and I think he can get very finely cut. in certain situations, but in general I think has been osas along that line. Of limiting what states can and cannot Withhold, from simply because institutions religious institution. Mill more of the Vermont Association of Independent Schools I'm wondering. Let's imagine a case. In which a student at Rice. Memorial High School decides to editor. The dual enrollment program is accepted into the program and it says I WANNA take a couple of classes while I'm still in high school before you get my diploma, WanNa take the classes at the University of Vermont Easy Commute from rice just a couple miles at the most. and and and the student says I go to the University of Vermont to take these couple classes. So far we're. We're in safe territories that right in terms of the the way, the jurisprudence were is working out so far. I don't know about the jurisprudence like give you opinion on that. In my understanding of how that issue works on the dual enrollment. The money goes to the student to the school. So If a student wants to take a dual enrollment course. Let's say it. Is Somebody attending rice high school and they want to attend a class up at the University of Vermont. The money goes to the student to the school, so there doesn't seem to be any problem with any kind of constitutional. Provisions here if the money was paid to the school itself like to Rice Memorial High School, that would be different, but that's a clear distinction there that that's not happening, so we'll enrollment I don't think gets into any kind of dangerous territory with respect to constitutional distinctions between Church and state. No I guess the the, and this would only been aghast because I haven't really thoroughly familiarized myself with a dual enrollment program I'm to guess when the check is cut, it actually goes to the University of Vermont which is actually the place where the classes being held I mean that's what that's what the money is for, so the class can can so that student can enroll in the class is is that is that cases actually go? The money. Okay! Here's an interesting wrinkle here. I understand also that when when the students enrolling in very looking around at various colleges. Say I think I'll take a couple of college classes while I'm still in high school on the list of eligible schools for that is saint. Michael's which has over in Colchester. and Saint Michael's Courses Catholic affiliated school. We back in the. Back in the super for that one Dan Richardson. What do you think there's one other constitutional issue here that we really should touch on just briefly and that is. In Vermont Constitution every Vermont resident. Has a constitutional entitlement to publicly supported education. so if if for example you live in a school choice district, which doesn't have a school. Then, how was that entitlement fulfilled? While the way the state has decided to fulfill entitlement is to give school choice so a student. Make pick any school that they wished to attend and the state. Pays the bill now. The state does put a cap on the amount of money. It will pay to an independent school, but it doesn't put a cap on the amount of money that you would pay to a public school. that's interesting and okay, so so in that scenario the the tuition student. The one who's says I don't have a high school in my own town I'm Gonna I'm GonNa have my town. Pay Some tuition so that I can go to high school in the neighboring town. High School in the neighboring town happens to be and. Pick on the Catholic schools. Let's say it's a baptist school of some kind or or its Jewish Academy whatever Would we run into a problem there? Milk well now. We're back to what you were discussing with professor teach health. But, if if that was a non sectarian school, it would be no problem. Right. Sectarian school that that that does you would. You would agree that that does create creative. Well, I think professor teacher was saying I. Think I tend to agree with what he was saying is that there seems to be a distinction between the compelled support clause in the Vermont Constitution and what the US Supreme Court was doing in their reasoning them. I haven't had a chance to really work through that carefully. Okay let me let me ask professor teach out about this question of the dual dual enrollment program and the the student who is enrolled in the school in the dual enrollment program. could be I mean. Let's imagine if from any for Burlington high school and they say I wanNA take a couple of classes at Saint. Michael's is there. Are there any issues there in connection with the fact that you know? The money eventually goes to say Michael's to pay for the students enrollment there. it's a Catholic affiliated school any issue there. I if there is an issue, it would have to be challenging that provision under the state constitution. Men As attorney Rick, Trajan, said if the money, the tax supported. Dollars are being used to support religious courses or religious activities. Then that would violate the Vermont Constitution, but if you're talking about advanced courses in biology. Being offered by Saint Michael's advanced courses in math science literature. I don't think there would be a successful challenge under the Vermont Constitution. Is the Supreme Court has interpreted that because again under the Vermont Constitution, it's not the status the religious status of the institution. It's whether there are protections against taxpayer dollars being used to support religious activities, worship or education. That's my view. Yeah, that's that's really interesting and and Let me ask Dan Richardson. If someone were to challenge. You know someone who's a real kind of strict instructions, Mr something on the topic of I. Don't WanNa see a single dollar on my to of my tax dollars going to sport anybody having anything to do with religion. You know I'm a I'm a I'm a dyed-in-the-wool atheist or something and I really oppose the idea of religious education and I. Don't WanNa see this and I and I. Would, would Vermont's in imagine the case then goes up to the US Supreme Court in which Vermont's sort of standard here this no, no compelled support standard, which does allow for some assistance to people affiliated with religious schools, providing that the content of what they're doing is not religious How would how do you think Vermont's law? Current law would stand up in the in at the US Supreme Court given that court's. Jurisprudence on this type thing over the years. I think I i. think it would actually fair a little bit much better than the Montana. provisions professor. Each had indicated before. You know these no support clauses in about thirty eight states are much newer. Version. and they were adopted. You know. They were adopted around the time where there was a fear of Catholicism and they're often referred referred to as the plane amendments because they were promulgated at a time where there was sort of an anti-catholic push To protect the states and as a result, they have been seen. You know they've been a target for people looking to expand. the rights of religious schools or religious institutions to receive public funding. In some form or another, the no compelled support clause which I think about twenty three states have dates back to the. In Vermont particularly dates back to the seventeen seventy six Pennsylvania. Constitution and you know. These have largely stood the test of. and I think. The reasoning that the Vermont Supreme Court has. Given in the series of cases where it's happened to review the no compelled support are are fairly consistent with what the US Supreme. Court has given and just in direct answer to your question. You know that was the exact issue in Taylor versus cabinet is you had to individuals who felt very very strongly against use of these town funds for historic renovation. Because the institution itself was a religious institution, and they made the argument. That will you give a dollar here? That means you free up a dollar for them elsewhere, too to conduct religious education, or service or worship, so it's a it's a it's a wash. It's effectively freeing up that money for them to do that. Relief work in the in the Vermont Supreme Court said no, that's that we're not gonNA look. At that at it that way, we're not gonNA make that leap and of logic and inference We're just GONNA look at what is the grant going to And what does it do and and is this supporting a religious proposition because it isn't in that case or you know if you can show that, it's not going towards either religious education or further and stuff religion, and you know in the Taylor case. We made a the. Church was able to show that this was going for the siding on the outside. Not for the sanctuary or you know refurbishing a religious symbol of some kind you know, and because of that the court said it's fine and I think the US Supreme, court would would largely find along the lines of of the Trinity Decision and Espinosa and and looking the lock decision from two thousand four. That says you know really only if you're clearly supporting a religious education or religious training ministers doing that type of activity now, what's going to be interesting to see where the Supreme Court draws the line beyond Espinosa? The important in Taylor has drawn a line. That's fairly robust in its protection, but the US Supreme Court may draw the line a little bit more circumspect, which is, you could see them making a distinction between You know the education of a minister and sort of incidental Religious Education so for example you match parochial parochial school where ninety five percent of the instruction is secular biology history English etc, and five percent is chapel and catechism. and then then. You know the US Supreme Court could easily make to say well it. That's an incidental. That's that's peripheral to the main function of that education, and that should not invalidate and that would be different. I think than the Vermont Supreme Court. I think the. Court, in its jurisprudence has shown a willingness to die much closer to the actual expenditure of of the money. Not to look beyond what it necessarily you know Bypasses you know or allows freeze up as far as money goes. But if the money itself goes to religious instruction, it would, it would take issue, but the US Supreme Court may draw that line a little bit more grayer. A wonder, if well let me let me let me ask. Let me ask no more in terms of the Vermont's independent schools and religious schools How cognizant are the religious schools you talk to of the? Of the nature of We need we need. We need to are any of them thinking Lonzo longlines are do we need to Sort of ended our programming in a way that doesn't. Doesn't raise this issue of having compelled support for any kind of religious indoctrination Imagine State Grant Going Out Sport Physical Education, and each gym class I, Dunno begins with the prayer or something in this particular school, and or each class used to begin with a prayer in the school has decided. We're going to stop that practice in in order to make sure that the Kim classes are eligible for the physical education state grants You know without without raising any any concerns here our our people cognizant of all this, or or is it, or is it more matter of just people are out there living their lives and occasionally issues. Come up and deal with event. I'm not quite sure how to address that because I think the question of whether or not public money can go to these schools. has become more complicated in light of what the US Supreme. Court has just decided. Everybody up until now has been operating on the presumption that public tuition funds could not go to independent schools period but now that's been called in question and there's some heard from professor. Teach out there some some It's a complicated question. It's not black and white as as the US Supreme Court might have thought it to be. so everybody is rethinking where they're at. So actually that that that is, that's a crucial point. There mill more in in wondering. Okay so right now. We have this system in Vermont that allows A. Public School kids to go to an independent school when their own community doesn't how high school let's say. and one of the I'm sure Calculus is that happen when families and students are thinking about? Where am I? Going to school is You know I'm I'm in town accident I've got I've got three four schools. I could conceivably pick to go to school now. now. There's this other school which is a Catholic school. Let's say or other religiously affiliated school. Also nearby And and up until now those that the religiously affiliated schools have been off the list of picks, the the family could choose and expect to get tuition reimbursement from their their own towns right. That's correct. Yeah and so is this. Does this ruling espionage actually make people think all of that might be changed that we could. End Up adding the adding the religious school to the list of choices that student was was looking at. Yes! I think so and then there probably will be a challenge in Vermont Supreme Court to see exactly how it's GonNa, work in Vermont. Professor Peter Teach out. What do you think about that? Is that is that? Is that a coming thing? Well Dave it was interesting. When the dual enrollment program was being considered by the state legislature, there were two question. was if the state wanted to provide eligibility to participate in the dual enrollment program by students, attending private schools and private religious schools. Could it do show without violating the Vermont Constitution or the Federal Constitution? And the basic basic view was as long as there are protections in place to ensure that participation in those classes would not. Be Participating in clashes that are religious. Clashes there would be no problem under either the state or the Federal Constitution now. Vermont decided not to go that way. Instead it decided to restrict eligibility for students attending what the what the legislature called approved independent schools. That meant that no private religious schools students attending private religious be able to participate, but there might be some other private independent schools that are also not approved, so the legislature was trying not to draw the line on whether the school the student was attending was religious or not, but whether or not it was approved, and no more no more than I do about what schools might be covered. That are not private religious schools for example. The Vermont Academy in Jackson's river covered or not Green Mountain, valley, school those schools also covered even though they're not religious and therefore students attending those schools are not eligible i. just don't know. Yeah. That's that is interesting mill more. Do you think that the legislature made a distinction no or was trying to avoid the religion questioned by saying that we're going to. We're going to approve disapprove schools for inclusion in the Roman program, perhaps based on other criteria. It's all it's hard to gauge. What legislative intent is because? There's a of legislation tours and. Yet, but you can only go on what the what the ultimate statute says. Which is the distinction between? Religious or, not, religious. While Dan Richards, and what do you think of we? Are we entering an age here? Where where? The Vermont tradition of tuition from towns without schools will will people will start to add to list the you know the nearest religious school. As an I guess I would. I would go back to one of mill. Moore's early point that You Know Vermont is not a particularly robust state for religious education There are along a lot of these towns that do. A school system that do tuition. Their students are in remote areas and They're small towns, and so you know I don't think practically the needle moves a lot, but this is a hot button topic and there's money behind the litigation, so I could easily see more types of challenges in the courts trying to open this up, not necessarily because they think it's going to move the needle in Vermont but because they're looking to move the needle nationally, or because it's hard of this national conversation and so. This is this does represent you know and the First Amendment, the establishment clause and the free exercise clause have sort of been these these sort of holes that that court the court has gone back and between and I think this is. This is the latest version of that, and with the changing or a composition of the US Supreme Court. Richardson thank you very much a mill more. Thank you very much for joining me this morning. Professor Peter Teach out for my law school. Thank you. That's about all the time. We have a gentleman. It's been really fascinating conversation. Spot for today's date Graham shows now for the news conference with Governor Phillip Scott other top officials on the Kobe Nineteen Response Talk Y'all tomorrow. Folks have good afternoon.