The George Clooney Hall of Fame. Plus: Carey Mulligan and Emerald Fennell!
I'm sean fantasy animated events and this is the big picture. A conversation show about george clooney the iconic movie star directed and stars in a new film the midnight sky which you can find on netflix. Right now to celebrate. Amanda and i will build a hall of fame in his honor in it. We will enshrine ten movies from his long career and ten movies. Only then i'll be joined by writer. Director emerald fennell and carey mulligan. A favorite of ours. Here on the show for an interview about their fascinating divisive must see new movie promising. Young woman it's all coming up on the big picture. The holiday season is here. And if you're considering the perfect gift for your loved ones consider a six pack of heineken. Against even the pickiest friends and family members can appreciate. The holidays are obviously going to be slightly different this year. But hopefully you can find a way to celebrate them safely and virtually possibly with heineken. 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There are some rumor mongering about that. The radical decision to move all of warner brothers. Twenty twenty one movie slate to hbo. Max may have a slight wrinkle. It sounds like maybe just. Maybe dune will not be a part of this transition. This was reported in in acuna with john lee hancock about his movie. The little things in the intro on deadline dot com. So there's no confirmation here we don't know of dune is going into movie theaters. It's slated for october first. Two thousand twenty one. but perhaps that's sweeping declaration. That warnermedia made a couple of weeks. Ago may not be completely true. What is your reaction to this news. So this is all legal right. I mean the first thing was about money and this is about legal stuff because dune is a part of the spat between legendary and warner brothers. And that dude may be the exception to the rule. That warner brothers can just put movies wherever it wants contractually and so to avoid being sued they are perhaps reassessing on this particular issue. I think that's definitely a key factor. It's the lawsuit. The legendary trying to bring against warnermedia. Another factor is probably one of logic. Which is that. If there is an expectation of a second dune film to be made down the road. The best way to fund in finance. That movie is to make a lot of money in the short term on the first doing movie and you can't make actual hard earned dollars based on streaming service revenue because that revenue is imaginary and only comes in the form of subscriptions which is significantly less than what movie could do at the box office. Like there's no guarantee that dune is going to make a billion dollars. There's no guarantee it's gonna make five hundred million dollars. But warner brothers has the hope that it can and will and thus allow for more dunes in the future with the naval neuve timothy. Shallow made the whole gang. I am a little bit surprised by this. I think it basically reveals a kind of weakness from warner media. That i wasn't totally expecting. I thought that the that radical nature of that decision was something that they were going to almost home be prideful about you that they were going to be able to tout this and just a little chink in the armor right. Now what do you think. I think yes. There is a chink in the armor. I think there were probably how how many seventeen films that were moved to streaming. So so they're seventeen chinks in the armor in the form of seventeen agents and lawyers. Who are calling yelling and again. That jason blum conversation. That we reference in a previous podcast. If he said. If i were in this position i would call an agent and that would be like. Can they do this. And i'm sure that that's what's happening. And i think it will be to varying degrees of what can happen but again this is about money. This is about legal arrangements. This is about contracts for all of the posturing and the blustering and the future of the movies or whatever this is about the business relationships and i think it will probably mostly workout in in warner brothers. Warnermedia's favor and then probably they'll have to run a few things back because that some agents well we'll win probably the case. We'll track this closely. They'll probably not closely through the end of the year because the holidays are almost upon us in the meantime. Let's talk about clooney clooney. The god one of our favorites one really just an elite movie presents for going on twenty five years now. He has this new movie now. The midnight sky. It's not that good. I you know i don't i don't i don't want to dwell upon it too much It falls into this very specific category of clooney movie that we will spend some time discussing here on this episode. Which is when george clooney decides. It is time for him to direct a movie and what that means relative to when he just wants to start a movie not the greatest director in the world. Not necessarily what he was put on this earth to do. He's not bad. The midnights guys not bad but it is not a transcendent piece of film. What did you think of the movie. I agree with everything that you just said. And i think it exhibits one of the george clooney as director tropes that i would like to revisit which is just kind of a. It's it's the pacing and how the pacing affects the energy of the movie. And just that george clooney films teen to exist not only in their own time but in their own. Just kind of that time moves differently. I guess time does move differently when you're on a spaceship which half of this movie is. I have a little bit of soft spot of this. Because i feel like this movie is a real father of daughters movie and and i mean that in the father of daughters memes sense but also in the sense that you know george clooney has two young children and this is a movie about parents and children and he's trying and working through some things and i like it. When directors of a certain age are are trying to work through their fatherhood in kind of ham fisted. Big studio ways. It doesn't it doesn't always work. But i'm like this is to meet george. Like clinton loves his kids. Yeah it does have some hallmarks of a kind of more conventional old fashioned. Hollywood you know family driven scifi story and that's what it is without getting too far into the details of the story. It's basically about a scientist who needs to travel across the arctic circle with a young girl to warn a spaceship of a global catastrophe that has reached earth. And so it's you know it's essentially a two track story. There's an a and a be pot. Quinny plays the scientists and felicity jones and david a yellow and immune bashir and kyle chandler and a handful of other people play the occupants of the spaceship so the movie kinda plays with time. It plays with questions of existentialism and you know what our future on earth is and of course what. It's like to be a father of a daughter and a number of other concepts It's not bad. It's brin by markelle smith who were at the revenue among other who's a very gifted screenwriter It's just again. It's another movie that we're seeing it home. We're not gonna able to see on a big screen that i think might have been. Aided there are a couple of sequences. There is like a very tense kind of action sequence through the end of the film that happens in space and then moves into the ship that that was really effective and exciting but also i was watching it home and it was kind of like might. Christmas tree was glowing on the screen. And i don't know there. I could smell christmas cookies bacon in the other room. And you know i was just a little distracted and i'm i'm only human in another life what we would have been seen this movie on screen and here. We are watching at home. That's okay and that doesn't change. The fact that george clooney is is a legend of of stage and screen What do you think of when you think of clooney who who what. What is his his essence. Cary grant is what i think of And cary grant is like one of my favorite all-time movie stars. Certainly old hollywood movie stars and i couldn't like does look a bit like him. But that sense of the charm for sure and the control and the the the comic timing in the wryness and the ability to wear a suit are all extremely important. Both in what clooney brings to the screen and what clooney brings offscreen. And i think he's like we're gonna talk a lot about him as an actor and movie star in movies but you gotta hand it to him. One of the great offscreen movie personas of the last twenty to twenty five years and i cherish that. It's very hard. We don't make movie stars anymore. It's hard to be as good at it as george clooney is and it's a skill. He works at it. He does he. He's not even sixty years old but he's so institutional in my mind you know. He basically got his start as a famous person. Just as you. And i were coming age. He was a longtime television star working in in the medium for for years in the in the eighties on i believe he was on growing pains and then backs of life facts of life. I apologize growing pains leo. So that's right. Yes used my conic legendary White male movie stars of our youth. You're right it was on facts of life and then notably one of the stars of er when he became just about the most popular show on planet earth and you pointed out here in our outline that he did something that is very rare and that very few people have been able to pull off and it didn't necessarily look like he was going to be able to pull off at first what did he do. It's the tv to movie star transition which especially in the ninety s that did not go well for a lot of people. And if you weren't there in the ninety s. I really can't express to you. How huge e. r. and george clooney on er wise. It was everywhere that thursday night and c. black. Remember when george clooney was on friends with noah wyle and there is that crossover episode just seismic pop cultural stuff. And i feel as old as the hills. Now i know so but he was so tied to tv and to nbc into you know a weekly procedural and covering the contract negotiations you know. He's a tv star and then tried to segue into movies. I would say the first five to ten attempts. Did it go super well. We'll talk about it. We sure well and then kinda reinvents his movie strategy and not just a movie star but you know. It doesn't work for him as batman. But as like music steven soderbergh and the coen brothers. It does work for him to go from super mainstream. Er to like my best friend. Steven soderbergh i mean. It says a lot to what people were willing to to forgive in the nineties memories. Were not as long as they are. Now we didn't have the internet so we were allowed people to change but that was pretty remarkable bomb like three or four times. If you're as charming as george clooney and people had as much of a relationship to what was his name. Dr ross was his dad. Ross doug ross and Doug ross was legitimately great character. You know he was like hangdog a little unlucky in love like little over committed to his patience. You know it was like why is this guy bachelor. He's got a little premature grey going on. He's got this flirtation with juliana margot leased nurse character. There's something going on between them will they. Won't they But he did seem like. Tv started me. I my opinion of him in the nineties was not like this man must be cary grant. Now i've i always liked him. I always felt connected to him. But i wanna think i could have predicted. Specifically the way that he would have used his own taste frankly to elevate himself and maybe we should use that as the entree into talking about it because he's had a few phases right so he's got this ninety nineties phase where he's working it out and he's trying to pick mainstream projects he's trying to figure out. Should i be around khan star. Should i be a superhero. Should i be part of the tarantino revolution. Should i and then he kind of slowly dawns on him. That may be. Oh tours and great filmmakers is really the people who he should be entrusting his movie career into and then kind of lets his persona. Get a little bit more flexible. He gets a little bit goofy in his acting style. He's having a lot more fun. It seems like than when he was in. Say the peacemaker And that's really where he becomes a big star. You know he gets to he helps. Oh tors become mainstream and he helps the the the filmmakers helped him become credible as a movie star and that you know that virtuous cycle basically sets sets the road for him for the next fifteen or twenty years. Where do we find cleaning out like what do you think of him now. As a as a movie star in a famous person still love him. He's he's like the elder statesman and elder statesman of hollywood the elder statesman of movie stars and he does He has been a political activist and kind of work. Especially international human rights has aligned himself and so a statesman a little bit in a in the political sense but like old school. Hollywood liberal left type statesman and he still knows how to give an interview. He still knows that being the movie star is a little bit about showing up and giving people a bit of what they want and in return. You got to do a little bit of what you want. You know it's funny like it. Midnight sky is definitively. Not my favorite george clooney performance. Because he's just wearing a very large beard and just looks like i mean he's hangdog the whole time. Looks like i said yeah. I mean it's sad. And i guess he's again. He's exploring at parent apparent hood angle through all of it. But he's in the movie because he has to be in the movie to get it made you know. That's he never made it to a place as a director where he doesn't have to have his face on the poster. And i'm sure that's a source of frustration to him but i also give him credit for being like okay. I'll just i'll do it. I'll play this part so that i can do what i want. You know. he has really receded from view as an actor in the last few years. obviously he has become a father and he got married to a mall. And you know he's raising a childen seems extremely wealthy because raising two children because he also sold a liquor brand with his gerber a billion dollars casio. He does not have to work if he does not want to. And i this is the first movie. I believe he started in there about four or five years. And you're right. He's definitely the only reason he's in. It is because he needed to be an to get it off the ground in the first place presumably and it's funny i mean he fifty nine is not that old he does not. It's not like he's done or anything like that but it does feel like it has way less of a priority. I'm kind of interested to see if he has like a. Paul newman esque back. Nine or back. Three where he spends his sixties and seventies like exploring more interesting acting work that is meaningful to him yet. I have no idea what he's going to do but Shameless plug my husband's actor and did profile him for g. q. And i can't remember whether this is in the story. But i do know that one thing that he told zach was just of like. I'm a little bit tired of acting. And because i have been doing it for thirty five years now i mean if you think back to facts of life. He's been doing it for my entire lifetime. And he's kind of like it just gets a little old. And so that's why he's directing because it's new things to do so i don't know who can say whether he'll rediscover it in a different way in sixties or seventies or. Maybe he'll just be like. I sold my tequila company. I have found love late in my life to someone who i'm completely nuts about in a great way i am the parent of two children and i'm just going to do what i want. Because and george clooney that it. That is kind of the magic of george clooney ultimately is that he is conveying the sense of i just wouldn't it be fun if we did it this way. How about that story. That zach zach. Got him to tell about giving away a million dollars to thirteen of his friends. That's the absolute greatest bags and the and the way that he did having out. It's great it's a testament to the george clooney aura. Right to which is of course. He's this kind of benevolent easygoing. But also very thoughtful and charitable figure and also the lord of pranks been profiled many times over the years with all these great stories. About what a character. He is on set. He knows what to do again. He he has the anecdotes. My favorite anecdote from the profile is just like his angry letter writing campaign. he's greenberg. it's okay. If george clooney has grudges and writes angry. Letters like cool. I can too but he just knows you give a little bit. And and he is. He's a great quote. He's very thoughtful. And i think that's a characteristic of his acting but also just his person and you know you're gonna get like a good amount. George clooney just enough and then you go on your way. Here's one of those great personality tricks where he's the most handsome successful and often seemingly most intelligent person in the room most of the time but he's always self deprecating too like he never standing on ceremony unless it's about the tragedy in darfur for example. Otherwise he's just kind of deflecting you know he's just kinda pushing off which is kinda sorta his movie persona though not entirely you know. We were talking about frances mcdormand earlier this weekend. What she did a nomad land in what her career represents. What kind of actor she is. And i think clooney is kind of in the same league. Where whenever you see him. He's not a transformational actor. He doesn't play someone you've never seen before he's not daniel day lewis for example to mention a contemporary. He is clooney. You are frequently just going to the movie to have a clooney experience because you like being around him you know he's like denzel he's like meryl streep even who is streep's transformer you've really going from meryl streep and i like that kind of acting. I don't know if that kind of acting is as prevalent as it used to be. I don't really know what the the the mode of stardom is right now. I wouldn't know how to describe it. It's superheroes it's you know. This person is captain marvel or cap. That's a person as a human played by brie larson right okay. And or captain america. That's the one. I was going for or you know buzz. Light year that we're story of the. I told the story the other day you try to explain to your young nephew. The tweet about buzz like you're the person and not the toy. It's really good stuff but like you know that's the lord surrounding one of our biggest quote movie. Stars is like a joke tweet about the origin story of like a made up. But now real toy as george clooney being let me tell you about my villain coamo which just. I can't believe it took me this long to talk about like come out but great great aspirational stuff from him. Being like you know what. I'm gonna do i'm just gonna go live in italy. He he is living. I think most people's vision of a best life and that's part of the reason why i think we still have this. Strong relation to strong relationship to him is not just as movies. It's what he represents. It's his version of success. And you know he's interesting guys from kentucky and his father was a journalist than a newsman knees related to rosemary clooney the legendary singer and so he comes from a showbiz family but he also seemed to have struggled for a really long time as an actor. You know his his early credits are movies. Like return of the killer. Tomatoes and red surf and grizzly to win. All this hugely forgettable movie work. We're only going to be talking as we build the hall of fame about the movie work so no we are no facts of life. I i feel really bad. I just feel really outline being really mad at me but this is a movie podcast. So now we are. Juliette has plenty of alex to talk about her. Love for this is not one of them. Gratefully was talk about catch. Twenty two the mini series adaptation of the heller novel. That he made a couple of years ago which did not finish. Because i have not seen it and we're probably not going to talk about most of the movies. He made up to nineteen ninety-six which is right around the time. When george clooney decided he didn't necessarily want to be dr doug ross for the rest of his life you want to be a movie star. So why don't we start there for those of you who have never heard hall of fame episode. We're picking ten movies. We gotta pick ten movies from this guy's legendary career. They can either be movies that he has starred in or movies that he has directed were choosing movies that he produced even though he is also a very successful producer including a winner of an academy award for producing the movie argo. He and his partner grant has love at smokehouse. I believe is russian. Company is called have done really good work. They produce a lot of clooney's movies pre some other movies. You have a have an interesting partnership over the years. That is a bit unspoken. They both also have played batman which is notable for variety of reasons that says something about the psyche of the male movie star. But let's start in nineteen ninety-six amanda and we're going to just do some debating now. I i find this to be a difficult proposition choosing the hall of fame. But you don't think it's going to be so tough. I do feel like. I have some clarity about which george clooney movies speak to me. And which are important. But it's i. I'm sure that you're gonna complicate it. And they're even fewer. I'm gonna let you decide. I'm coming to this with a spirit of generosity and diplomacy just so you know okay. Well we'll see how generous you are when i tell you that. I really want from dust till dawn to be in the george clooney hall of fame. Where were you anticipating that slightly. Yes okay go ahead and predicted. Well okay so this is really the first big mainstream movie. The robert rodriguez directed it's based on a screenplay or it's you know it's the the adaptation of a screenplay by quin tarantino. It is a crime getaway movie that transforms into a vampire movie and it is a true grind house. Oh my gosh. If you like exploitation movies this is a movie. This was like me getting Indoctrinated into a brand of sixty seventies and eighties movies that i love because this movie is one big wink at them from all the casting. Tom savini michael parks. Fred williamson the figures. On the periphery of the movie cheech. Marin obviously the music the rodriguez style the tarantino dialogue including at the center of this movie is really weird. He never made a movie like this again. He never made a movie. That was this gene refocused. That was this idiosyncratic. It was this violent that was made that featured him in such a kind of a despicable role. I mean he's like a he's a fief and a murderer. An vampire killing bad ass movie. And i'm so interested in him even just choosing to do this that it feels extremely notable to me and it feels like it could have been the start of a very particular kind of movie star career that he clearly opted out of. When we talk about the next move he appeared. Yeah i i think this is fine if you want to make this their early clooney. The nineties cleaning pick. I think that there's a a more more visionary pick to be made but it would also be stretching the definitions of the hall of fame so when we get to it. We can discuss it. But it's fine for now. Okay for now. We are putting from dessel dong in the george clooney. I love this movie. I cannot claim to. It's rea-. I don't know that it's a great movie but it is. It was an entry way into a into a room. That i really. I really have never left. Frankly i mean completely honest next up one day absolutely not. I don't know if you're not a fan. I don't know if you've seen this movie recently. On paper this is a movie about george clooney playing. I believe he's a newspaper columnist and michelle pfeiffer and it's a romantic comedy set in new york city and involving the circle and i learned about the circle from this film. I watched it in quarantine when it my friends. And i had one of those like watch. Movie text about it appalling. It's just it doesn't make sense. He and michelle pfeiffer like do have nice chemistry but it is. it's like gross. Ninety s sexist. And i say that. In the context of all nineties rom coms slightly sexist and have relationships but his character is just not appealing. I think they were trying to make it a little less saccharin than your average romcom and it just doesn't land so now. I was not expecting that. I was expecting you to love it. I've seen this movie a few times but not in a long time. So i don't even really know how thing my memory of it was very fond and then i we all watched it because you know we picked it for this preventing oh george clooney michelle pfeiffer sounds great and were just like what is this. I don't think it's necessarily george clooney's fault. I like that. He picked a rom com. It just doesn't work. i don't remember. Was this movie a hidden anyway. It was a hit ninety. Seven point five million dollars one fine day interesting okay. Michelle pfeiffer cheer dead. It's not in the hall of fame. Unfortunately nineteen ninety seven to important releases here. Batman and robin the second joel schumacher batman movie. Truly one of the worst movies in the ninety s. george clooney is immensely embarrassed by this movie and is unafraid to discuss it at length anytime you ask him about it because he hates that he was in it he did not like it. There has been some effort to reclaim it as a camp classic. I resist that effort. I i'm going to do something that i hate when other people do. But i'm just gonna do it. I'm going to just share theory. That i shared on letterbox this movie are you ready great. Yeah glad this is not a good movie but arguably the most important movie of the nineteen ninety s and the reason for that is it was not a big success and it was critically reviled. And i believe that it inspired executives in hollywood to more carefully manage their ip to not empower the wrong people to direct big noisy. Come book movies because in the immediate aftermath of this two to three years later bryan singer's x. men sam spider man and christopher nolan's batman movies and that is really what changes movies that is what changes this whole industry thing that we talk about. All the time i think is a direct reflection of the mismanaged ninety s compaq movies and so unfortunately. This movie is very important. It just isn't good. Let me one up you. When i was talking about movies. This should be in the hall of fame. If we're visionary and courageous and want to expand hall of fame this is essential to the clooney narrative like essential. He plays batmans a goes terribly. And then he latches onto soderbergh and cohen brothers and everything great. Afterwards without batman and robin there is no out of sight. There is notions levin so also. I saw this in theaters and that was pretty funny. This is my first batman movie. Just if you wanna know amandus relationship to call. Oh george clooney and at least you silverstone i'll go explains why you don't like movies very much if this is your intro. I must say clooney is not that good very Disengaged from this performance. As bruce wayne he's the third bruce wayne span of like five years. But at least it's over sudden. Cristiano are abysmal. Terrible in this movie. Arnold schwarzenegger obviously not a serious spn by any stretch. His performance as mr freeze is actually camp and thurman who is basically just playing barbara as poison. Ivy is incredible. She is by far the best part of the movie. i like. i like how you're thinking. Let's put it in for now. Okay as a means of importance. This would george clooney does not know we are live and never will but if he were ever look at this and see that we chose us for the hall of fame unsure. He'll be mortified next up the peacemaker. I think this is who he wanted to be. I think he wanted to be a robert. Redford meets. Bruce willis style star. You know a dashing action star who can have a romantic lead international intrigue. You know like a big top movie like this seemed to be the exact it on paper. This was a movie that was like this. This is the movie that will vote him out of tv me letter directed at who onto a number of films deep impact. The lots of episodes of the leftovers seems like it should work. It's really really boring. Good the peacemakers out one thousand nine hundred thin red line. Here's a very small role in this movie This is a really interesting terrence. Malick world war two film that has a massive sprawling cast and is the beginning of the new phase of malik movies. I think clooney thought he was going to be more of the movie than he actually was. So that always the way that is the way with malik So i don't think it makes sense to put this one in the hall of fame. Okay that's fine with me. I didn't remember that he was in this and then tried to rewatch. Part of it and was like this is an essential. It's essential to this conversation. Exactly not to just to clooney. At a site i got to a no-brainer might be the best movie on his in his whole career. We certainly needed the number one day. My husband and i were having this argument last night. About like kind of the best. Clooney versus like the quintessential clooney and i think this is like the essence of clooney. Everything you need to know about george clooney as a movie star as an actor. Going forward is here out of sight and it starts out of sight. Okay what do you think about three kings. David russel's portrait of three feeding soldiers during the persian gulf war extremely important to the clooney narrative. Because famously there was a lot of conflict between clooney and david russell because clooney did not love david russel's manner and behavior on set and sort of appointed himself as kind of the stand person who pushed back against david a russell and they'd There was a lot of friction. And that i mean that's like a famous story and that's famous to the movie itself in his also kind of you can see clooney's self conception or the myth of clooney kinda solidifying a bit in in that story as well so in that sense argue. It's really important. I'll be honest. I did not watch three kings for this movie. Because this you have a lot of thoughts about it and i was just gonna kinda let you decide. Wow you're gonna let me cook. Yeah go for it. So i don't have a whole lot to say that i haven't said before on this show. I really love this movie. I think it's really clever and smart and indicates direction. I wish david will. Russell followed more closely in his career. This huckabee's are by far my favorite of his movies. And i just don't think it's one of clooney's great performances. I think it's good. I think he's good. I think wahlberg good ice cubes good spike jones good. It's a good movie and an easy to return to and enjoy and see the kind of the way that they're playing with genre and the way that they're playing with tonality in the movie is very interesting to me but it isn't like it isn't a highlight. Reel movie to me. So maybe ridiculous batman and robin from dusk-to-dawn and the torch golfing and not three kings. So maybe just for the sake of conversation. We'll put it in for now but it feels like it's feels like it's on. The periphery to me. Okay deal yeah that's fine. Let's talk about the next one. Which is the perfect storm. And i kinda don't think you can do both three kings the perfect storm. But i feel like we're gonna make a lot of people mad if we don't do the perfect storm. Even the perfect storm to me is more walberg and diane lane chris. Doing the diane lane speech every washed. The youtube christie's impressionist to what really happened in the perfect but the perfect storms. A big movie and it was very successful and like means stream and in terms of getting in front of a lot of people. Is i think important but i don't know if it's essential to him. Well so i think if and robin is the most important movie that he made than might be the second most important because because of everything you just said it was a huge hit and it had it gave him a kind of clout. I mean this is a few years out from are now. And there's no guarantee you know making out of sight which was not a big box office success or the peacemaker which was a bomb or three kings which was well received and well regarded but by no means a big movie. It was a little. It was a little like we'll hear won't he. For clooney as a as a big movie star and this was a massive natural disaster wolfgang petersen movie with a bunch of movie stars and he was at the center of the poster in addition to that giant wave. So i think it's got to go in. If that means three kings goes out so be it. It's tough though. Because i love so many more movies. We have to talk about here. This is what i think is going to be hard it whether they desert whether they belong visit some of them. But that's why. I just think like take three kings out. I don't think we need out of sight. Three kings perfect storm right in a row to encapsulate that period and three kings is at least essential of them to me. Okay oh brother where art thou. What say you. I was going to let you do all the coen brothers. Their of varying degrees of quality. This one is might actually be my. It's not my least favorite of the clooney coen brothers combos but this has never been my favorite I i know a lot of other people. That is their favorite. And that in that was because the soundtrack and the the power the soundtrack hat and also you know it's this odysseus style tale of a man trying to get back to his family and clooney is doing a different kind of acting style. It's where he develops this. Like wide eyed goofball overselling cohen. Brothers monkey figure and i. It's good you know it. It creates a partnership that is really important for him. So i think it has to go in. Okay i mean i. It seems to me when we talk about his other. Coen brothers collaborations. I prefer some of them but he is like in the less essential coen brothers films. You know he and it's and it's cool because he's getting to have a lot of fun. And i actually liked that goofy side of george clooney but it doesn't really feel like when you're sitting down to like to make a hall of fame about either of them that the collaborations really fit and i guess over other without taking the most seriously out of all of them. We can debate that with one other. I think that's right though. I think even in the other ones that he's in he's probably not the most important person in the movie and he is the most important person and brother so okay. Let's put it in for now. Okay it was ocean's eleven i mean hattie's without question Obviously a beloved object of popular culture between the two of us confessions of a dangerous mind two thousand and two. this is his direct to'real debut. He also has an acting role in this movie. Which is a portrait of chuck. Barris the gong show host and purported cia agent who was played by sam rockwell. New movie is movies a little uneven to me. And it's not my favorite. And i what i really wanna see. Is these spike jones directed version of this movie from the the original charlie kaufman script. One of the controversies around. This movie is a kaufman does not like the movie because it changes the pretty much right. Yeah it's not bad. It's pretty entertaining. I looked back. I looked at some of that. I watched about thirty minutes of it this week. Just to kind of go back to the tone that he was going for and it's pretty accomplished for him. As a filmmaker. I think for two thousand and two as a first effort bus just not agree. Movie i agree. I did not think that we would spend this on talking about it. Okay two thousand. We just talked about this. I think we both revisited. This and really do really like this. It doesn't have a huge reputation in part because it's a remake of a legendary tarkovsky movie and it does a lot kind of whittle back with the tarkovsky movie. Did i think it's like a ninety minute movie in the house. Like three and a half hours and it is a very Patient existential look at relationships and loss and science fiction and really is. i mean. It's weird to me that he made the midnight sky already. Missed loris because source. I think says what the midnight sky is also trying to say and it did it. Twenty years ago and more economically. So i don't know how we could actually fit it in here. Given how many more movies talk about. But i do like it. I agree with that. I think that everything that he's doing and celera's he does elsewhere in with some other things that make it more memorable. Not that this is not memorable. I really liked the film but you know sometimes people are doing big ambitious things and some times people are just doing things because they want to try something and this feels like a wanna try something and it worked it does One of his first produce oriel efforts is notable for one specific reason. It's called welcome to collingwood. Would to two thousand and two crime comedy. And it's in the tradition of like the ealing comedies from england in the forties and fifties has smell guinness energy. It's notable because it was directed by joe and anthony russo. Who turned out to be the shepherds the stewards of the marvel cinematic universe and clooney was way ahead of the curve on the roussos. This is what really one of their first big break before they were directing episodes of community. You know before they were considered the future of film making a lot of ways. They have a movie coming out next year that we've barely talked about which is called cherry cooney. Was there unfortunately. Welcome to call-in would is not that good so it's okay that looks look at everyone now. It's the real power. Look at us and everyone made it. Two thousand and three is intolerable cruelty. This is one of those coen brothers movies that is considered a lesser tier lower tier. I'm actually a big fan of this. Movie is pretty funny. It's an omar to a certain kind of hepburn. Tracy two big movie stars going kind of nose to nose and then fallen in love kind of a movie. In this case catherine zeta jones is his counterpart but i. It's it's phantom as cultish. It's not actually hall of famer. The international thing. yeah. I feel the same way. I don't mind it but you know there are other hepburn tracy. Oh modules that. I feel more passionate about ocean's twelve. I'm not going to be an asshole. I think that this should have been top five soderbergh and i think that george clooney's wonderful in this and that we can make room for other things but i'm still mattie and i want steven soderbergh everyone else to know that. Ocean's twelve is miraculously film. You should watch it over the holidays. It's wonderful amazing. How despite the oncoming christmas holiday we are not putting a miracle in the george clooney home may two thousand dollars. It's more of a rusty movie. The first ones about danny. The second one's about rusty with you. Good sense has prevailed airman. Thank you thank you for your your grace and your your humility. And your decency has a podcast. It's all free shaded anytime two thousand five good night and good luck disarray. Watch movie last night. Pretty good very a very celebrated movie at the time This is a portrait of edward r murrow and the team at cbs and the cbs news division. That essentially stared down. Joseph mccarthy during the mccarthy kind of red scare hearings and black and white way before manque trying to capture that era in a very particular style and while clooney who plays fred friendly the legendary producer for murrow and partner. has a very like back performance. This is very much his. This is probably his most personal film. Because it's kind of to his father who was a newsman and it came in the right in the heart of the george w. bush era where the relationship between politics and media was quite fraught And you know as as our country was going to war in various countries in the middle east there was a lot of confusion about what role the media should be playing during that period. And this obviously comes from a place of passion for clooney. I thought it was solid. I i'm a little surprised looking back. And it was quote unquote timely. And i think that's why it was so celebrated but with the exception of david straight there and who plays murrow in a great great great performance. The movie is a little bit like a wikipedia. Page to me does. It uses a lot of archival footage. I will grant you that. The last twenty minutes. Like art as climactic as i don't know the last twenty minutes of any film should be. That's just kinda. How put movies together works. I think this is the clooney source code. I certainly for his directing and to an extent like what he conceives of a leading man and what he thinks of the movies. You know much to a time period and as an old hollywood style that he's clearly very interested in i think like politically. It is his mom. It's his speed. Would you can see in the films. And outside of the films. And i think he just there is a gravitas to all of it that i think he brings to his performances pretty naturally and other directors like figure out a way to it rate on it and bring new things to it which is cool and then they grabbed task seems to be what he is seeking and pretty much of his directed works with i would say limited results the rest of the time. But it's really important to understand his body of work. I think that's a strong case for putting it in so for now we will put it in. Okay two thousand and five syria. I also revisited. This phone this is a film that is important because this is the movie for which george clooney won his academy award for best supporting actor for playing a rough approximation of robert bear. This agent who wrote a memoir about his experience working as an agent in the middle east called evil. This movie is written and directed by stephen geoghegan and much like good night and good luck. It was a very quote unquote important movie. At the time that it came out and there are parts of this movie that are important and that are very interesting and their parts of it that i find to be quite quite quite bad and quite like white. People explain the middle east to american audiences. And it's funny. I mean this is so often the case. There's a movie that we're gonna talk about soon. That is so clearly. George clooney's best performance in my opinion and This isn't that land. No one ever wants to oscar for their best performance. I was gonna say this. I think like this is i actively chose not to revisit this. I'm sorry to you know. Admit that i didn't do my homework but i reread the wikipedia page and i was like nope. I'm not gonna finish reading. This competed page. And i'm not gonna watch. This did have a the politics. I was concerned that they would not hold up android that they never held up. Because i don't really remember. And i just think do we have to put it in if he won the oscar for it. I mean that's also wind-producing oscar and In another at some point and we don't have to. we can put a hold on it to me. I don't really. it's it is a good performance and it is different from the traditional clooney. Part which is that he is completely turned down. The charm and there is something kind of morose and physical and his performance and he's tortured in this movie and he famously injured himself very badly hurt his spine and that led to him just seemingly having to manage an extraordinary amount of pain for the rest of his life. So it's it's significant and like he quote unquote earned the oscar because of the difficulty of the performance. It's just like this is not a very good film and it is. It's so self-important that it's kind of a bummer. And i think one of the best things about clooney as an actor and as a as a persona is that he's so self aware and he so clever and charming and this movie like the idea of hollywood rewarding someone for turning off all the things that are great about them. I just went so silly. Just a you know it it. It protects the wrong ideas. Put us in charge of the oscars. I'm available if anyone steven soderbergh wants to call me for my input this year. I i am here you. Here's the thing you're married woman. Okay you have to stop throwing yourself at steven soderbergh on this. Your professional help. Someone who's worked that i admire. My husband listens to this. Bob got doesn't like this line of discourse moving it along two thousand and six the good german. This movie is not going in the hall of fame correct. I look forward to seeing it again. I look forward to talking to steven soderbergh about it at some point in the future but not now two thousand seven michael clayton five star diamond film real a perfect fucking film. Are you kidding. Just absolutely wonderful. He's terrific in it. It's an a brilliant script by tony gilroy. Every single actor in the movie is dialed incompletely completely told the swinton. Tom wilkinson sydney pollack. Just a an adult drama. The likes of which we don't get enough of that unite kind of obsessed with and we love a movie about character on a mission. A person who's got a singular purposes trying to figure out what their life is supposed to be about and what they're doing with it and this is like a real embodiment of that including is perfect as clayton It feels like almost a. I don't know it's almost seem self referential about what role he supposed to be. Playing as a figure in the world of hollywood fixer. Or is he someone who's actually getting shit done and loves movie also kinda uses the movie star and also the gravitas like george clooney characters are usually well the very often criminals but there are people who are on the right side right and they're going to bring they're going to restore moral order and they're going to they they neatly even if they're not doing the right things or they're breaking the law or whatever like you trust them because you trust him and you know this character kind of goes on a journey she find some of the right things but like the more there are no more arabs. Moral absolutes in this film. I mean well. There are a couple. The tilda swinton is on the wrong side of things. Great performance from her by the way. But the michael clayton character is is figuring things out and it's always cool to see a film kind of in conversation an accurate in conversational so developing new skills as a result. George clooney like most of his acting isn't talking its presence. It's facial expression it's it's control. It's kind of sitting there stillness. And it helps if he has like. Maybe the greatest script ever written and certainly the greatest dialogue ever read. God's own words as zach. Put it last night. But he also just is so comfortable in this dialogue and it's cool to see him doing that as well. I just this movie so good. It's definitely on the hall of fame. We gotta find another opportunity to talk about it. Maybe you'll get tony gilroy on something to celebrate this movie on an off year anniversary. I unfortunately for him. He just ran into the buzzsaw. Daniel of the best actor is this is that there will be blood year. This is the no country for old men year. Oh seven is just the absolute best. And he's terrific. And this and i don't think it would have been outside the realm of possibility that he would have won if not for l. Who you know is galactic. He eats all other actors. Two thousand seven again ocean's thirteen i like ocean's thirteen. I don't think this is like a standout clooney performance. Oh yeah agree. Two thousand eight leather heads. The less said about it. The better. Not a good movie and This is kind of where the the worm turns for clooney as a director. I think where. I think before this came out. I was like this could be real good. George clooney's gonna take a similar position. The clooney was once in. You know a really beloved who knew how to kind of innate charisma who is ready for something bigger and put him in a sports movie sports comedy. You know a period piece should have been great. It was not. I don't think i finished this movie. Two thousand eight burn after reading. I think this is the only other coen brothers movie that has picked up a huge reputation. I think this movie in the last ten years has become a lot more beloved than it was. When it came out of kim up people like clooney and brad pitt in kohner. This is gonna be incredible and they were a little bit. Let down confused by what it was going for. But with some hindsight if you look at the letterbox community for example. This movie has a very high appeal now care. I don't know. I love burn after reading but i liked it when it came out. Have ever told you that. They filmed burn after reading like literally apartment building next door to me in new york when i was living there. I don't think the the used brooklyn heights is a stand in for a lot of washington. Dc and. i can't remember who who who's home. It was was like it quite literally next door to it. And so i made friends with all of the the people on. I never stole from crest services. I promise i was like very responsible. But i also. I really liked this movie. I think it's very funny but again it's like i like this for the past performance. It's brad pitt and frances mcdormand. Really be it's not. It's not clooney's movie clues pretty funny in it. And he knows how to do the cohn brothers wide eyed goofy thing but not as movie so now two thousand nine fantastic. Mr fox visine this movie. I loved this movie only. Yeah i like to animated movies. A charlie brown christmas and fantastic mr fox. That's not true. I like inside out too. So that's three three innovative fantastic fox. Just terrific this is wes. Anderson stop motion animation adaptation of roald dahl novel and george clooney voices mr fox and this is also a father son movie a lot of ways his son play by jason schwartzman in endearingly ship. Who plays his wife is a cable in chat i thought it was meryl streep meryl streep okay. I don't is this a george clooney movie. Well yes. I was going to make an argument for this. Because this isolates another hugely important aspect of george clooney which is what is his voice. He has a singular voice. And it's definitely a part of the appeal. And that's all you get in fantastic mr fox but it really works. That's a really good case. I i was not imagining. We were going to be putting this one in. I would like to put it in. I would like to put this one. If as a like a curveball in an underrated one and we can take out one of the weird ones that you put in earlier for this fun with the fuck man this is negotiating taking it. Easy Okay in two thousand nine again. The men who stare at goats. This was a mood directed by his partner. Grandmas love that he has a great cast and is not that's accessible so i don't think this goes on great with two thousand nine up in the air. Jason reitman's movie. That i returned clooney back to the four as you know in conversation about who were kind of our best movie stars. This is a movie about a guy. Basically for a living works as a corporate manager I remember liking this a lot at the time. And i remember my wife being really big fan of this movie too. I didn't get a chance to revisit. It and i know that obviously reitman has has been criticized a lot since this movie came out the kinds of movies that he makes which often end in these very nuclear family happy endings and as i recall it. This movie also ends in that fashion. Yeah i don't like this movie. I didn't like it at the time i liked. George clooney for mega. I lake anna kendrick although sometimes to just makes me uncomfortable because of the types of roles that she is asked to play just like awkward people who sing a lot. It's a tough road for me. But i take on the opera discomfort myself. I everything that you said about. Criticizing this movie's values. No thank you. This movie has a lot of fans. People will be mad if we don't put it in you ok with that's fine. I'm used to it fair enough. Two thousand and ten the american which is a very good film in a different kind of a performance for clooney. You mentioned how he frequently acts without speaking. This movie has probably his fewest lines of dialogue. it's a rare movie from anton corbin the legendary photographer and music video director. Who's worked with depeche mode and youtube over the years. The me couple of movies. I like this movie. I don't think it's necessary. I think a lot of actors actually could have played this part because of how internal and physical it is and how not charm oriented as it was an interesting choice for kuni at the time but not one of my favorites personally. I don't mind that people wanna get away from their persona or their charm every once in a while you got to do different things. World's wire you an actor but it's not not cork looney for me agree. Twenty eleven the ides of march to know for me dog. Did you re watch this. No i re watched this a few months ago with winds actress preparing for his story Wow i think i remembered this being a little dicey but i was willing to give the benefit of the doubt because let me tell you i love me some ryan gosling and this. I forgotten what happens in this movie. Everything that i said about pacing of just kind of like things pop up out of nowhere here. I'd honestly don't know. I don't know how this happened or what this movie is about. I mean i do. But what on earth this was based on a play by bo. Willman called farragut. North yes those loosely based on howard. Dean's run for president. And i believe oil and worked on that campaign and basically this experience william and went on to write and create The us version of house of cards. And you know political drama special. You know extraordinary. I guess this movie is another one of the and there are a lot of george clean. Movies like this on paper should have been un- unbelievable the cast this movie in case those of you who have not seen in a long time ryan gosling george clooney. Philip seymour hoffman. Paul giamati evan. Rachel wood mercer tomei. Jeffrey wright maximum. Ill jennifer ely. Yeah i mean that's the that's the murder team right there. That's an incredible cast. It is true when you look at the cast. People want to work with george. Clooney does speak well. I mean. I'm sure it's because it's like he's george clooney but it does seem like people really like him and like to be on his set. It just doesn't work. I will say. Without spoiling all sides of march which is a very wild movie that the lactic seen he and gosling face off in the hotel kitchen. It's like oh if you could have made that the whole movie. I would have enjoyed that but instead it's melodrama seem to recall there being a couple good scenes like the phone between gm. Phil hoffman like area. But i haven't seen it in a while but it can't go in. Because i remember having a lot of problems Two thousand eleven the descendants. I'm going to say yes. Yeah i think. I think this is the last truly great. Clooney performance In the alexandra. Pain adaptation of a novel As a a widow widower who is living in hawaii trying to raise a family and cope with loss A a slightly different kind of performance from him a little bit more merafhe downbeat. but also. There's like a little bit of that. Clooney cohen brothers mania in it too And i think it's just really good work. I i wish that there were more movies or like this personally. alexander payne movies quite a bit so i would say yes. Yeah i would as well. It's dad humor clooney which is kinda funny and then what he has that energy a little bit and it's like he's finally coming home and then i think also as you said this was the last like george clooney like great american actor performance for a while. Yeah it was this is the last so funnily enough he was nominated for best adapted screenplay for the of march this year Wild he was also nominated for best actor for the descendants And then the next year he won that oscar for argo which were obviously not granting in hall of fame here but that's where the his career takes a little bit of a shift and what follows twenty thirteen gravity obviously a huge hit and extraordinary alfonso koran visual experience. A movie that. I like that i think has fallen by the wayside. A little bit but that sandra bullock's movie and he's a supporting character and he's comic relief and is basically just the tool to telling the story. It's like he's doing everybody a favor by being in the movie and a lot of ways So i say no to that but what a great guy. Oh yeah sure yeah. He seems tremendous hang. I'd love to receive one million dollars. Tax free from george clooney obvious. twenty fourteen. The monuments men no for me dog. Yeah i this was the one where it was like on paper. I should really. I was really going to like this. And i just don't know what happened. I don't either. This is kind of like a heist. War movie comedy. I just does not come together. This other heads together. I feel like. I don't even wanna finish this movie Speaking of slightly misbegotten work from talented people twenty-fifth tomorrowland which was a a a at the time. Very big brad. Bird live action movie mining kind of disney ip. I believe from a script by damon lindelof and also just did not work seemed like needlessly convoluted and a little bit odd honestly And this is where i started to be like. What's is george clooney. Okay like what would happen things trying things. It's just sometimes with good ideas. Don't work and he actually has a disproportionate number of them and he also has a disproportionate number of movies. That did really work. Like ocean's eleven you know like there's no guarantee that a remake of a rat pack heist movie was absolutely going to work in a did. So we'll give him a pass twenty. Sixteen hail caesar. He's fucking hilarious. And it's cohen brothers. Movie He is a key player. He's like the key figure in the action. But he's not in that much of the movie. But i do love what he's doing. It doesn't quite feel worthy of hall of fame to me. Though i agree he's very good at it and it's like the dissemination of everything he's doing with the coen brothers and what's fun about it but it's not. He's not the center of the frame even though sort of he is in the narrative of the film. Did you revisit money monster. No i never visited money monster. Whoa i which is really strange like everyone involved. But it was one of those things that was so dia. That i just i. I never traveled. They're very very similar to me. To wonderland of the ides of march to the monuments. Men to letterheads where. I'm like on paper absolutely. Please make more movies like this. My money monster if you haven't seen it and frankly most people haven't seen it is a movie that is directed by jodie foster and stars. George clooney and roberts and and i haven't seen it isn't that crazy that is crazy completely forgotten about it so you put it on this list and i was like. Oh my god. I never saw monster. Furthermore george clooney plays a jim. Cramer esque t. He's like he's the guy who's telling you which stocks to buy on tv. And he eventually is taken hostage. Live on television by a by agree stricken bankrupt. Viewer play jack. O'connell and you know of course. Part of this movie is like a reflection of the financial crisis of two thousand and eight and kind of what the stock market does to people. And you know the the just the demon work of the american financial system and all of those are well intentioned ideas in an american crime movie but it just doesn't work and so so often there are these movies or dislike. It's all there and then it's then nothing is like this has no legacy. When was the last time. When was the last time someone had a conversation about money. Monster out loud before this is not even when it was released. We've never talked about it. It's like you conjured out of scenario. And i was like oh yeah and then i even forgot to watch clips on youtube. I forgot about it on youtube. Who probably not because. No one knows what it is. I don't know if you've ever seen money monster. Please at ak dobbins she wants to hear from you. She wants to know that this movie actually exists. It's funny actually made ninety five million dollars. It didn't do that badly at the box office. But i don't remember talking to a living soul about it until just now and then so in two thousand seventeen Clooney directed suburban yukon. Which is a movie that i also will not be recommending to the listeners of the show this is considered. I think one of the great failures really of the twenty tens as based on a script. Jonathan cohen wrote many years ago. That was refurbished by clooney has love. And once again this movie stars matt damon and julianne moore and oscar isaac and It's it's bad. It's the tone is all off and it's meant to be kind of a satire of nineteen fifty suburbia and race and american politics and Kind of all over the place in a little bit incoherent a and that takes us the twenty twenty in the midnight sky. The midnights guy's not going in the hall of fame. So she should we re recount where we're at with these things let's do it. Yeah i think. I wanna say we have eleven or twelve so nineteen ninety-six from dusk till dawn nineteen ninety-seven batman and robin thousand nine hundred out of sight. Nineteen thousand nine three kings two thousand the perfect storm two thousand brother where art thou two thousand and one ocean's eleven two thousand five good night and good luck two thousand seven michael clayton two thousand nine fantastic mr fox two thousand eleven the descendants. How many is now. I think that's eleven. Oh my god. I wasn't counting while you were saying it. But i just candidate again. Bobbie you can tell. Ron here's the thing. I thought we already took three kings out. So let's just take things out have ten. We're taking three kings out and we're leaving the perfect storm and batman robin. Don't you wanna be interesting here. I'll give you another option. Would you like to take from dusk til dawn out. I really liked that movie. Okay then keep it in. I've author you assumption pretty. We're meeting in the middle here. It's pretty simple. I feel good about it. It's representative. It's a little interesting. People are going to be mad. Because we have batman and robin and we don't have the terrible up in the air. It's fine you know it's everything you want to a list. Let's look at the land. Mines ear no syrian a- and no up in the air. This is going to be your fault when people are men always my fault. Have you been in the world in two thousand twenty. Everyone yells the woman. It's fine i'm used to it. I express my opinions. I don't like up in the air and together and can fight for it. You didn't even like push back on that you weren't you just tried to outsource your critique you were like other people is going to be bad. Why don't you stand up for yourself shawn. if you're mad you can tell me right now. Otherwise we're not revisiting it using that. I'm straw manning. that's what you're saying. Yeah and i'm just saying you're being cowardly make big decisions okay. Let's not get personal here. We're we've come to come to very close to a solid agreement on eleven films. There's no reason to search has tried to play me for everything instead of saying that need together on a list with vision and a bit of surprise. And that's what you want Do you think we'll be getting you any humility for christmas this year. You're allowed to ask me that. I i i guess from docile s to go which i kind of over three kings. Well three things is is a quote unquote better film. Who cares. We have batman and robin on this list. I know what that's important. I agree and you don was in florida. You know there's supposed to listen to the whole podcast on the journey with us so they just look if they look at some words on a tweet and then yell then shame on them. Here's the worse tweet. I got today. I'm going to share with you right now. How great we shared our best performances of the year lists on twitter after talking about them at length on a podcast and on that podcast we also talked at length about marines black bottom and the first reply to the tweet with all the names was. Why isn't anyone for marine black bottom on this list right. Listen please lissouba podcasts. I actually when we were. You know doing all of the twitter like art stuff should be figure out a way to put in that. This entire list was inspired by a podcast which we said on the podcast but when things are not presented in context then you will have all the information and they don't make decisions but we're making this listen context so once again john fantasy the power is yours was take off from desolate on leave. Three kings okay. I just when you are awake tonight. Being like i did not stick to my own convictions. I just want you to know that. I supported you. Think that's debatable. But i appreciate sentiment. So let's just go there. One more time. Batman and robin out of sight three kings. The perfect storm or brother were art. Thou ocean's eleven good night and good luck. Michael clayton fantastic mr fox and the descendants. I'm having second thoughts. Do we need both batman and robin and the perfect storm which are really avatars of box office rather than performance. Well the case we made for the perfect storm was that it clicked. And that's like what works. After batman and robin like failed and then that's his success and that's you he can do out of sight and he can do perfect storm. Gosh okay all right. I've offered a lot of different options. I think that there's pretty good reasoning for that. I'm not blaming you. I'm blaming myself. And frankly the vagaries of these stupid games that have invented for this podcast. Okay well i think that's a great note to end on you know. We spent an hour and twenty minutes talking about a living legend and a person who brings joy and charm and lightness of touch to everything. He does now. We feel terrible about ourselves. We're going to yell at us is terrific. I highly recommend almost all of his films. If not all of amanda thanks for building. The shrine is always To my interview carey mulligan emerald pinot. This podcast is powered energizer makers of ultimate lithium the number one longest lasting aa battery. I think we can. All agree leaks are bad roof leaks. Hand sanitizer leaks and definitely battery leaks me. I need batteries all the time when. I'm trying to power all of my devices especially when i'm watching movies. I now have five remote controls in front of my television. I need batteries to power. All of them even as battery technology has improved. These leaks are still thing. A lot of batteries can still corrode damage your devices. After they're used up energizer is different. 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That's replacing the type of luxury may to fit you and your lifestyle infinity. Now the new way to buy an infiniti at shopped kennedy now dot com available at participating infinity tillerson. It's finally the holiday season and the same songs on repeat as are your holiday decorations. Conversation topics and cheesy holiday cards but with refreshing gift idea a season the same can be made special. Consider a six pack of again to shake up your holiday gift gift. Even the pickiest family members can appreciate. The kind of gift will have them thinking. Maybe i shouldn't have gotten them a flannel for the third straight year. After such different year one thing remains unchanged. I is a gift that everyone can agree on so pick up a pack of heinekens for have them delivered straight to your door today. No matter who the lucky recipients of heineken. turn out to be make sure everyone enjoys responsibly. I am delighted to be joined by emerald fennell and carey mulligan guys. Thanks for being on the show. Today us emerald. I'd like to start with you. Because i'm curious about when you first started writing promising young woman. What what year was it. And what was going on with you at the time. So i guess writing it thinking about it in two thousand sixteen eighty thousand seventeen. What was going on with me at times. You know nothing specific I wanted to write something. I'd want to revenge media. Think about investigating feel revenge actually looks like an writing little stuff at the time about. Anger says civil Person but rage. I guess and how. We express raging wants distasteful about it fascinating. Yeah and jim this sort of than than agholor bed drunk saying what are you doing. The came united sat up in burns. That what you can not sit at the beginning of familiarity. Carry where where were you. What were you doing when you received the script. I was Doing anything about i remember. It was january ish time of the year that we have said. And yeah i. I had mess emerald the years of a month say before a mutual friend's house briefly but i didn't know think i knew that you were doing something. I didn't know that there's anything i was just job. So i am so that was new and then your rent it and and just loved it and we sat down two or three days later and pretty much gold straits luck. Yeah with something like this. Can you guys describe from be that first conversation that you have after carry. You've had a chance to read the script and wanna pick. I'm roads brain and talk about the character and figure out what this film could be. What happens in a conversation like that because we because i think neither of us can matter awful is that you think is huge moments in your lives are going to be the ones that you inevitably ain't forever but actually it's funny because we've had so many decisions may say no. I remember most being so impressed by carries shoes. They do trainers date of old. I was also impressed by extraordinary wounds. And the the thing about the scripts is that its clients. People were either the end. All it wasn't Tape so i think it was really great when people in like carrie was you got concentration to really of film that you just like joke about locations choosing it's very much. Let's get like down into it. I think we're both solutions. So we we had not sort of compensation i think. Yeah i mean. I will say like with the majority of jobs that i've done in the last ten years. I haven't it hasn't been a huge amount of foot in the you know i've sort of known pretty much from reading it with that i was going to do and i kind of knew walking in the i was that i want to do it and i couldn't believe how lucky i've been to be offered it so it was. It was about five minutes into the conversation. Where i all i remember saying. Like oh my agents gonna tell me off because i'm not meant to do this but you know one hundred percent of couse wanna do it like thank you. Thank you then. We just started talking. It wasn't it was so instinctive because the writing the brilliant and knowing emerald for five minutes was sort of bit carry. It's been a few years since you did a film where you were at the center of the frame the whole time. You know where you are the complete and total focus. Is that something that you were looking for and wanted to get back to or is it. Just you like this character. You wanna do the story. Any not really. I'm yeah it's it's not really ever massive consideration. I just want to be. I just want to a really good nice. Crunchy pot So i was about to say it feels like i i felt like i had. Maybe but i yeah. I suppose i sort of plays i just think about it like that And it was. This was amazing because it was such a brilliant paul but also it was a. I was surrounded by great writing for for great actors. So it was the rest of the script had Brilliant parts are the people that we've getting these amazing actors who just coming in to do like hall for day or a day And so yeah that was. I mean that was kind of amazed me was one day that we had like molly shannon in the morning and for molina in the afternoon or something it was like ridiculous where they embarrassment of riches you guys are the same age and you both in professional actors and producers and i think the movie is probably going to be interpreted by some people as a kind of reactive allegory. For what women have been going through an industry that you've worked in for a really long time I was curious if before you guys made this if anyone tried to dissuade you from making the film or what. It was to try to get the film on its feet. Definitely say for me certainly isn't an allegory about this industry. It was. it's much more. I mean it's much more about the kind of general culture that i grew up that we grew up with everyone with which was a Getting gulf drunk to kind of loosen them up finding drunk holes and buzzer posses gulls walking home on a shame. Having no recollection. What happened them nightfall. That was awesome. That was treated as the as a gag it was. It was in an automobile culture as a joke as something that was completely In all society you knew dot the thing that this movie is about specific. I guess is well as more general thing is just how. Yeah how will dawes when a society realizes that. Something's been doing for a long long time. Which they thought was their k. Or they wanted to be was okay. It's kind of metoo. Movement is schnell computation and specific and difficult thing. What and power. And you know. I mean it is part of the same hideous kind of misogynistic culture but i but i do think that this movie is universal than that it's about what lengths do you go to seduce someone. What led steiger's you to get what you want. And how how do you feel when he find out something. You kind of chose to believe this. Okay is not okay dots. Not maybe it was kind of about ask for people being kind of resistant to actually will again a little bit like sending it to cost or to. Hud's like he either end. Will they just want twitter's fine so i think we found the produces in. It was probably fifty fifty house. The people really loved it and half the people dressed. You like to whether enough but it was up. She or they really wanted to change that. None men's and so yes so so so it was actually it was it was it was all right. It wasn't too. It was as difficult as i as. I have to be carry. What's the first thing you do when you agree to play character like this. Do you have a process for trying to figure out who this person is. Well the first thing. I start doing impo almost immediately is trying to do in american accent which fills new tara so i immediately melted mona copa working with forever. And say i'm going to be an american again help. And then yeah. I mean a lot of this was really just love conversations with emeralds because we just to figure out who kasey was fool will if this happened and we you know bathing she was. She was quite different. She suddenly looked very different And you know figuring out really was at the heart of this which is a relationship with nina and and so 'cause it's such an act of loyalty what she's doing Nissim much love in it So we need to sort of talk about what that relationship was And about french it meant to her. And then of course you get through the events that sort of leonard as point. Yeah it was it was really majority of the kind of prep was was just the to talking about it. I'm of making those decisions figuring things out tone and style or huge part of the film and it's a real balancing act between like you said this revenge thriller and this comedy satire at times. How much of the way that. The character dressed the music. The way that the film looks was on the page and how much of that came afterwards. Emerald i'm a loss of the page to the extent niche Music within the scripts that that kind of ended up being the movie I'm i'm. I'm kind of weighed with stage directions. I am quite expulsion about them. I think that often fussy. I think people often scare them. So you go to be short sweet. I tried use the moore's continual stay abroad than interfering with direction. Will i was wearing single Cheek i stopped to sorta but I hope that what it is eastern for is that the kind of general tone Opportunity should be kind of conversational. Having said that it was quite difficult to really explain to people so i sent Into immutable thera- relentlessly Gourds what was on the mood. Board was lots of pastoral manuals. I fel Sweet vanni high The shining it was it was mostly sort of tanny. College somewhat heightened ultra saccharin feminine references pageant suicide since. I got That we weren't going to be in a grace serious. Ray reigning world going to be in contrary like cassie very beguiling. See the feminine seep innocence. Fun world where you could feel comfortable and carnivals take she's off before we like tickle feats then most kerry what was it like for you be surrounded by all these comic actors. I feel like this is a fairly uncommon thing for you in your career and even though the movie does have obviously a lot of intensity to it. It's mostly comedians and comic actors. A you're working with. Yeah it was say much firm. I loved it. I about three or four days. And working with bo. I was i. I was kind of a just couldn't believe how much fun i was having. This is just the best or my. Gosh we off over time. I what i've been doing it was yeah. It was so much fun. And i ruined so many takes Go in trouble once or twice but it was. Yeah it was amazing. I did just think it's it's incredibly difficult What comedians do think sometimes often canadians that just Best actors in the room You just have to be steadfast truthful for it to be truly funny And and both certainly were all of the actors in the film and so it was really. It was just so much fun and it was. It was great because there is. There's there's daca scenes and stuff but it wasn't a single today. We went hysterical at some point laughing at something So it was a it was a really fun set and it was funny because bo was. They're doing like the majority of our stuff which is sort of rome delightful. Paris hilton donning aman. He was go away and we'd do something serious and then he'd come back with the glare at him. I consider the funds and so it was. Yeah it was just lovely emerald. Why did you want to ride revenge movie. I ask that as somebody who loves revenge movies and wishes there were more of them And i feel like they're more a thing of the seventies and the eighties and not as common these days. So just curious to hear you talk about the genre. Well i have a vengeance lake. I think new we. There are lots of revenge movies. Rightful there have been noted for venture movies. And i you. I absolutely love to sean. And i think it's like one of the most satisfying joyner sarah's and and and actually find that it's that people know very well very well worn and therefore it's kind of very right to be Because you're following a kind of all the people when people feel safe. I guess as much love revenge movies and find the Thought it could pleasurable as ever announced. I'd never seen revenge movie with women at the centre behaving like a woman might behave. If they will seek revenge and i guess for me that so bound up in in wish fulfillment the says kind of and and so i just sort of distinguish what would i do. What could i do. And there's not much. I could do visit keep because i grew testy on fit and also woman so on and women generally speaking Likely statistically resort violence for many reasons. Some witcher are examined in the movie. But i could you know do something. Maybe more troubling which is will cost. Utah's which is frightened people And so that seemed like profound troubling to me. And i guess this movie movies kind of it is about which is but it's also about what happens when a good person what happens if you're a good pass new gets a knock on the door one day and somebody at the other side of the jones tells you pass. I think for all of us in these revenge movies. We have very clear clear. Hera's we're used to being the passan on the other side of the dual. Do and i think that's kind of this movie will feel like to a loss of asu grew up in this culture. Which is that we've been. We've been hiding not over long time. Presenting stuff is and that. That's what felt interesting to me about this about this loves because it's both fong and will say horrifying carry. You have an executive producer credit on the movie. And i was wondering if you also want to scare people. If there's something about the work that you guys did that like that part of it that appealed to you. I mean honestly. is pumping aluminum thing. But i i feel like the executive producer title was very much gift full. I feel like. I played the role of producer. Really i it looks like terribly hot. Walk but i. I'm just thought because carries a modest. The reason carry deservedly has reduced role. Is this is. This is a very independent. Movie resort very Time with limit lenny and attracted lots of people enormously silly because of carry because she is astoundingly brilliant and somebody that people will bend over backwards to work for and so that for an enormous amount of getting the movie made. Which is what. Ep stu was. Don't carry and say. She deserves the ep credit iraq. You had that with the script you had people lining up to do the straighten anyway anyway. Will let's fight about that later. But yeah i mean i just wanted to. I just wanted to go are emeralds. Was getting i just wanted to be a passive Idea Found it so exciting until larry and dark and You know i just yeah anything to be apart of. That was was appealing to me emerald. You're the show runner on season two of killing eve. But this is your first feature film. Was there anything different about being in the director's chair would kind of surprise you about doing this work. I think yes everything absolutely. His will the role that i hadn't killing eve with was much more of a british role which was lead writer which was very very much like predominantly a rightaid role. So which is why. I'm kind of used to direct changes. Yeah i think. I think it's what's frightening about such as you have no idea until heaved on it. He only way of knowing if you can do is is doing it. And so that's is a little bit. Like i do something like free climbing or something like this new theoretical really. You can plan. And you can be meticulous about preparatory But so. I think i was surprised. I was surprised by how much i enjoyed it. I think probably which is so. It's sort of a bit like saying my main floors can't macho something like i was. I was surprised. I thought i was going to be those going to be running on fair adrenaline. And of course there is a certain amount of that but mostly i was so happy to be the grateful to be that and working with all these incredible people that i Loftus there is a a thorny nece in the movie and it's obviously going to be has been for those who've seen it divisive. It's it's a it's a conversational piece. i'm curious. Will you guys be tracking that conversation. I'm sure you've been exposed to it. You know it at sundance and amongst people who've seen it in your lives but when it goes into the wider world and gets debated do you. Will you look at that. I mean harry shaking her head no carries you get. I mean that that is just terrible idea. I just wanna know anything. I just want to. Yeah i i actually thus far Haven't had any conversations of anyone who has been. Maybe no one's telling me the truth. But i i don't know i have any desire to engage with that tool. I think just drive him out. And i you know people are so entitled to feeling. I think it's it's good that it evokes strong reactions in it causes debase. People will discreet about so good stuff. But it's probably not good. Is i feel safe passively. Attached to see to me spans of gauge. That anything is a small. I did emerald about you completely. I mean i think he'd have to be a masochist to look. It's a bit like thinking about the early like it would be like going to dinner party and then hiding behind the curtain instead of leaving and wasting to listen to what everyone knows. If with a see whether you larry us whether you to watch tyra by breath would you. Why would we want to know any of these things. I think that you especially. It's too late now. We've made the thing and we're so i mean well i can speak for myself. I'm so proud of it. Close to the thing in many ways. Much better than the thing that i wanted to make. And it's the that felt right to me and so there was no changing and as new and it would be bonkers to try and Change you want to and you couldn't necessarily change people's minds so then you just sort of impotence bystander. Watching people social criticize people as a bit like putting your baby into a beautiful baby competition being like. Do you think my baby's beautiful and people saying no. It's not the updates say be. We've ever seen like i wanna the movie. Really cleverly satirizes the idea of male victimhood. But i do think that there are going to be some men who feel attacked by the movie and i was wondering what the men in your life. Think of the movie and like what kind of feedback. You've been getting men in my life. Haven't seen as his sort of size. M results of the way things turned out in the we haven't been able to have premier Marie screened it. As but i was none of my men of seen it Wasting i think well. I i think if you feel attacked by this movie re good indication of somebody who might need take second look at why that is actually because i think the movies actually pretty evenhanded about like nuits toki baton. What but i'm yes. I'm the same as carrying my husband's seen it in obesity. I mean look. He's completely biased. It's it's like asking my dad. My dad was sick unfortunate culpable they say on the post. I wish i both thank. It's the greatest film fm. I was actually not a friend of mine. Did see but very karch university with and he looked a bit preach ashok to its and i said you feel like you were watching us. While the that's the kind of response to talking about so people could should be to preach emerald. There are several call backs to one of my favorite movies. Ever also directed by a actor turned director night of the hunter graces app. Now i just wanna to hear you talk about. Why did that. Well how will. I mean a few reasons most night with kind of a of things when you're making independence home out of necessity Needed to find something Advocacy's parents we wa- chain kind of like the idea of t sam kind of often. But i think that speech from nine the hunter which is that he gives. Which is i have on my brain's gone. It's about women. Have their things. Funes mailing lacey hangs to the kind of rage that he fails against just such kind of neatly horrifying thing and so can fit very well that and then and then that that we will see a song that one of the children's saints and it's Changing song but it's also about. It's kind of allegory. About to buds an felt very conclaves kassian. Nina was nice. The hunter is kind of the perfect film. And the thing. I love most which is west something. Very real very allegorical. Same time it's a move couldn't be most is it couldn't be mojo and yet emotion that he was so Kind of real visceral. You know so much more visceral than anything completely realistic that that it just felt like yeah i just love it really sandwich For a few reasons as may seem because kids. chris. I love it too. Happy to see that You know we were sort of alluding to this but obviously the movie is not going to be released in the way we might have hoped because of what's been going on in the world. I'm wondering how you guys are feeling about that about the idea of most people seeing it at home and you know just the circumstances of release i. Yeah i honest of unselfish way. I feel so bummed out to not be able to do this together Just being able to be with all cost. We've been diagnosis. So sag qna's with everyone maron living-rooms nobody See allison and laverne and brie. Breathe free though out of some braids. Sorry about being not being able to do it. Celebrate it together. I think part of releasing things is that you get to be together with the people that you made it with you. Know that sort of falsifying and lovely physically when you will go on sale which we will do it I think yeah. This is definitely. it's it's so the cinematography. The designed the way that it's crafted is is so special It's obviously ideally seen on a massive screen With people with people around to you. So it's a it's a shame but we go over it pretty quick didn't i. You do make it difficult because films so much like making making anything is about context. You're gonna watch ten and you do and you know we really did make a film hoping that people would community because part of the stickiness of comedy and horror. I think two is kind of Together feeling and especially with this movie way sense like there are different moments where people were unsure whether they love. They have permission to off. Some people were shocked. Somebody will what it was just. It was very could really feel the you could feel what was happening kind of together so that so that kind of is dot com socks having said that you know it may be that move people able to watch it at home and therefore will. That's a good thing too. You know as carries says you've got over it pretty quickly because many minnesota has been you know. It's not this is not even like a million listeners. So so yeah you get lost it. It does strike me as the perfect. Go to see the movie with your partner and another couple and then gopher drink and then debate and fight and talk about how much you liked it or didn't like it or what what it made you feel So that's i guess. That's unfortunately people can do that over. Zoom but it does make me wonder you know you've worked on. tv carry. You did a tv series a couple of years ago. I'm kind of curious where you see the work going in general because it does feel like films like promising. A woman are less common tv series. Miniseries are much more common because of streaming services and all the things that have been happening in the industry the last few years. I'd be curious to hear from both of you guys where you see the work that you're doing going and where you think you'll be spending most of your time even just in terms of format i found myself. I kind of love the idea of doing you know ten ten out on episodes with emerald only with emerald lovely a so and i you know might identity be a couple of years. It's really fun to have in a four hours. Six up and remodeling. It was always tired. But i'm for. It was to have to be able to spend time with the characters really nice and so i can definitely see the appeal. That kind of stuff is based from life angle am. It's it's more of a commitment in having a young family. I think broadly in the the reason. It's been such rule for axis Female actors that. Just it's the roles have been so great and people have been creating their own work. I mean it feels like francaise mcdoom with olive case. Ridge was one of the fast of series really had such brilliant female characters has to zoe kazan on these like extraordinary female roles performances in office web in by people setting up production. Getting these series. A is amazing. Totally appealing an actor. But i think you know it promising young woman goes to show is that you know you can Like incredible high quality. You can get with the right. Filmaker risa even with a tiny budget. And no time until sort of basically makes it is remarkable to see like this level this quality of work. It's just it's possible if you have the right passing. I didn't anyone in the world could have tell their support from emerald. But but i do think it's it it hopefully in when independent films like this that really come from nothing budget. Get end up having a big platform lettuce film. Has i think that that should be an indicator. People put more faith in more money into independent film because it really can attract a big audience. If it's good you just kind of have to focus on it being really good which obviously emerald it name. I mean it's sort of interesting. Isn't i think it's the wine keystones in the world it just depends. Zora is and what it because for me. you know. i'm doing like a west end musical that i'm writing and arranging thing and and some films too and i think it just all of them just felt like the right medium for that is so many this kind of yeah that is like an embarrassment of riches When it comes to making stock medic dot in a way can be the overwhelming also. I think the pleasure of fell is that it contains an and the you leave out is as important. Just pretend problem with with any series of not The loveliness of series is you can go really really deep but you know inevitably the longer. It goes on the Explaining one has to do. It's not that it's not the sense that we can get jobs up. Native justice took literal glimpse into worlds. You know and then the cottons big shots again. And then you'll kind of forced confronted with your own reaction to it. You get much more. Genetic does that that sounds very extension is changes but i think i know films because that finite making in kind of like things to be showbiz leach. Yeah we talk about films mostly on this show so with you. Hope you guys both make more films Emerald what about for you. you know. You're appearing on the crowd right now. You've been acting for a long time. Do you think you'll spend more time as a creator and and carry to that point. I'm curious if you'll maybe try to produce more films in in in the way that emerald was describing And take on a slightly expanded role in the making of movies and tv shows while not. Actually it's just such a pure fun enjoyed box. It's also completely on somebody else's schedule insert the moment with of things going on and like harry with a young family. It's very difficult to to have something in the diary that could change at any minute that know so that unfortunately means that for this disable quite unlikely thoughts. I mean i've i've to a full to. Maybe this year will pretty much to anything. So you know. I i'm just i'm just wishing somebody for me with By naming fell blitz makeup tutorial. Maybe someone will also be something as good as not asked carry. What about you. Do you see yourself producing. Maybe writing directing anything like that in the future. Sasha wanted trek painting. That's the problem you're sitting them. Royalties like an also writer director producer. No i don't know if it's my thing I i love the feeling of reading the scripts the first time and knowing that i can take ownership of that role and And i don't like seeing too much fine because i didn't think Sort of the fun. Me is like the mysterio. It and excitement divisions the so much day to day In this sort of admin and the districts of being built and production. It sort of boggles my mind. But you can also be creatively burly into the same time as having to handle like spreadsheets. Just how people do it So identity if it's really my thing for now i and maybe that will change but at the moment taking of know i've got two kids and i i've you know still getting used to making decisions to go walk nope that's quite feels quite wrenching. So i think i sort of feel an and it's just not my interest. I think if it was something that i felt passionate about than be a different thing. It'd be much easier. But i just state date feel passionate about producing. I feel like such an act if a higher And it feels like sasha. And i love that say marshes like the most fun so i think for. Now it's sort of. That's my new fakest ready guys. Let you go with this. We end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers. What's the last great thing they have seen. What what are you watching in quarantine. Both of your eyes just lit up. When i asked that question. I just lost monari. Oh yes please talk about it. It's wonderful right so you hope is so beautiful. I just loved it. I haven't loved the film that up such long time and i just was so useful. I can't even use any other. Was describe it and performances Mazing the kid so cute. Just wanna eat him. he's adorable. Yeah i just love to. It just felt like a sort of soothing balm to twenty twenty for me somehow That and i just watched the last ounce finally which is. I've never been interested in basketball in my entire documentary that buffs bull king vs what compelled you to watch that kerry. I love the watch that it was Won't last and watched it. I've been obsessed with it. And i sort of ignored him and let him watch that. We'll say speak Back in the beginning of the year for like the nineteenth time and finally i said run outs. Oh i watched. I watched what else i watched something and i sort of felt bereft afterwards and he was like oh trying all stance don's abe. I don't care about the skit. Will iran understand that he was like dole is just really solid. Documentary will love. And i absolutely love tests like couldn't believe it and i just i felt i felt equally bereft ever and i just wanted to watch michael jordan all the time and i honestly it's so good and the scores amazing and makes you. It's just loved it. Say that these monari in the last dance and mike too late. This things was a fabulous. What about for you. I don't know how you can top the last dance emerald but that was that was the last time you immediately thought of styles. I need way you'll head with guys listening to use Late to chop fell in love stay. Blessed to obviously is cool. I knew he had been watching on the bbc cartoon. Hey junkie house. Regrettably because i'm tara mother. Twenty four day rick bowness when it's kind of a break from that it should not yet i have. I saw your movie. It sounds because i didn't get the sense. That i i just think it just blew my mind. Bullet was so brilliant so funny and gripping and it's just like nothing i've seen before and i just loved every second of it as she just really like thrilled by it just made me love. It was sort of wicked brilliant and then and then i just unmanageable com springs which i hadn't seen because in england these chat you seen it now. I really want to do it. Yeah exactly so. It hasn't come out new maddening but so cheeky. It's just so so. The chemistry through easy premise is just. It was just like exactly what i wanted from film this year and kind of felt the same way about Early like whitley. Considering humphries sort of credit nuts because of hits. The premise is felt very live. If over live what she felt. I wanted to go to a wedding and be destroying jess or my husband nicaragua. In one time. I falling in love with sex comedian undeserved. Just kind of. Don't talk drafts do some terrible things like it's just something. I just now. what. I want to walk. She's off the films like super visceral. Think it's going to be able to sex onscreen and hopefully off. Congratulations on promising. young woman. Thank you so much for doing this. Show guys. I really appreciate it. Thank you guys. Thank you to carry mulligan to fennell. Thank you amanda dobbins. Thank you to bobby wagner. Thanks for listening to picture. Please stay tuned later. This week we will be back. That's right three episodes in one week. The only reason for that is because one woman. Nineteen eighty-four is coming to hbo. Max we have a lot of thoughts about that movie. We will see you then.