Episode #51: What's Next for Amazon Staff and Brands Find Themselves Stuck in the Middle of Culture Wars
Recorded live from hong kong rong onto. This is the pr in la podcast. Podcast with your house. Cam mcmurphy and you and christie's welcome to episode number. Fifty one of the pr la podcast. I'm your host can make march along with you. Kristie hello cameron. Un's an employment lawyer and partner doesn't troon llp in toronto. Canada and his firm is online at done true dot law. I'm a pr in hong kong and publisher of the digital. Bits pr and communications newsletter. And you can find that at digital bits. Pr dot com. If you enjoy the podcast. Please tell a friend and you can follow us on social media. Lincoln twitter instagram facebook. And we've also got channels on youtube and soundcloud and of course our newsletter you. Un pr law podcast dot club. What's happening. I think things are not very good over there in. T. doc no. It's pretty bad cam. It's pretty bad hearing. I'm hearing and not just there but elsewhere in the country to yeah i mean we had the second worst day of the pandemic last week him In terms of case numbers new case. Numbers Yeah we're on. We're on full lockdown All over again. So we're we're well in the thick of a third wave. It's pretty bad you know it's interesting. How these things kind of ebb and flow though. Because like you know here. We're down to know cases a day many days. I think we had one yesterday. so it's really in control and people are people are upbeat. But there's been other places such as thailand where they've kept control of the virus the entire time but now they're seeing a thousand cases a day they've had a huge spike down there just as they were getting ready to sort of reopen for tourism. So you know. I think the lesson here is even the case. Numbers get quite low You know there's no guarantee that things will continue that way. Yeah absolutely well. I think in thailand. I mean they were way behind in their vaccination or vaccinations as well right. I think they only started vaccinating. Like the end of march or something like that. Yes yep that's right. I mean there's sort of two sides to i guess sort of containing the outbreaks. And then you know. Vaccinations i think the us. Israel real few other countries. We talked about before have have done a good job. Vaccinating mine mine has been moved. I think i might have mentioned this because there was a problem with the pfizer vaccine. At least some of the packaging of a case of it in hong kong so they delayed it for a couple of weeks so now my my shot isn't till the till the nineteenth. I still can't wait to get it right but when you talk about a delay you're talking like weeks. Yeah ten days right okay. All right well. That's great not. There's another thing. I wanted to mention you because you know we've been talking on this show about work from home and we had kind of debate about that I think it was last week. But you know what's interesting. Is there some stories that have come out you. And where i think the new york times had one and i'll put an lincoln the show notes where people are very resistant to go back into the office and some companies are having a hard time with this. You know trivia go which is a travel sort of website travel company in germany. You know decided after the after the after covid nineteen to let employees work remotely for three weeks and then come into the office for one and even that didn't work. They said employees came in two or three times that week and they saw it as more of a social time to have coffee and muffins but they just. They're really resistant to returning back to the office. And you know there's a couple of stories on this. I think it's something employers are gonna have to deal with at some level. Yeah i mean look. I think employers are going to nice on this in the short term at least to try and let employees adapt to getting back to to a workplace environment. But i think on a long enough time line cam. we're going to see a lot of employers. Who just saying no you. Have you have to come back because they do. I mean that's that's the thing you know employees. At least you know here in ontario and a lot of other jurisdictions they don't have the discretion to say. Yeah you know what. I'm just going to work from home. I'm gonna keep working from home if your employer wants to go back. I mean unless you have some very very clear medical reason or it somehow discriminatory or you're returning to an unsafe work environment. If your employer wants to go back you have to go back. That's that's the way it goes. And i think i found a long enough time line. Employers are are they're going to start pushing on this little bit more. I think i don't well. I don't think that's the point like obviously if employers want people to come back to come back. I think the the point is that employees. Ease large enough numbers of are demanding this as A work life balance or a way to work. And so i think there's going to be increasing pressure on employers to allow this to some degree. I think that's more more of the issue. Obviously if employers put their foot down and say you got to be here thirty. Monday morning you know that they have to go but i do wonder because you know we have gone through a full year. Almost where a lot of people have been able to get their work done remotely and so there's a question over whether it is necessary and i guess I guess the part the bothers me. Is that automatic assumption of you know when things are back to normal. You go to the office because it means that we haven't learned anything over the past twelve months. I think we have to sort of break that that link between productivity and being at work do you know what i mean because i think that does apply to a lot of people but it also doesn't apply to a lot of people that can be productive elsewhere. Yeah absolutely. I mean there's also there's been i mean as we've talked about so many times on this show a fundamental culture shift around work and i think that that's the part that's going to be sustained. You know well past pandemic and you know everybody being vaccinated etc etc and at a certain point. I think it's going to be something that perspective employers or employees are going to to look at when they're considering where to work right. I mean if you have sort of two job options available to you and one of the options is no you have to physically be in the office. Five days a week or however many days a week and then you have the alternative of a work from home a couple of days a week and work from the office. Yeah i mean these. These things are going to be draws for a lot of perspective employees. And that's going to be a consideration. Employers are going to have to sit back and seriously explore. What are we gonna do. I mean how are we going to address. This and some employers are better situated to doing that than others By nature of the fact that a lot of them were supportive of a. You know a work from home program pre pandemic and had the infrastructure set up and you know for a lot of employers will be business as usual but there's no shortage of old school businesses. That are still out there cam Who still believe rightly or wrongly That employs can't be productive unless they're sitting at their desk in the office right and by office. I mean that bricks and mortar office that the the employer rents. Yeah and. I really hope that changes because it does seem like a very dinosaur view at this point Because i mean the end of the day right like you have as an employee you have deliverables. You have responsibilities. Or you've got a portfolio of work that you know sits with you and theoretically the timeliness and quality of work should determine whether you're succeeding or not or being productive or not but i mean that's a bit of a utopian idea. I guess but one more thing on this just before we move on. You know the interesting thing. I found looking through some articles on. This is the one thing that came up. That bothered employees. The most was the commute that is why they wanted to work at home. Actually there was very little concern about being in the office. Because once you're there you can talk to people. I mean some people said it was distracting. That's my number one issue. When i'm in the officers people coming by people phoning me people wanting to chat even about work or not work. I find it really distracting and sort of breaks up my my working flow. So that's my biggest issue but the commute is is a real one. I think a lot of people who have sort of taken commutes for granted that it's going to take forty five minutes or an hour to drive into work and then realize they can do their work at home. That's now a really tough sell. Because that's a lot of time. I mean it might be two hours two and a half hours when you combine your commute from door to door and i mean i think people found that time could be much better spent. Continue the debate with us on social media. Join us on lincoln. Facebook twitter and instagram. Pr law podcast. All would work aren't l. a. w. podcast. Send us your questions. Now by email to ask goes at podcast dot com. That's all one word. Ask us podcast dot com or on social media with the hashtag. Pr law pod. That's hashtag be l. A. w. p. d. Okay you and take it away. Twelve camera going back to alabama. All right we talked about yet. Have you recall last week. We were chatting about the union drive at the amazon warehouse sedan whereas summer. Well the votes are in cam any Any guesses well. I know. I know the result you do i do. Yeah well i mean it's one of those stories where got blasted by fifty news alerts on my phone so but the drive failed. I understand yes yes it did. Yeah and it's interesting the the legs this story had it got a lot of press here in canada as well. I mean it's it's clearly a big deal. Even outside is typical labor circles which is interesting to see what you what actually on that point. You and you know the reason for that. These are the stories the better the biggest because they touch several different areas. I mean it's kind of tech story because it's amazon but it's a labor story and it's also just sort of a story of a sort of it's not manufacturing but because there's so many jobs involved like it just touches on so many different parts of the economy e commerce all of this stuff so that you know that's why i get so much play. Yeah yeah i agree it is. It's a really interesting multifaceted story anyway. In terms of the vote. Yes so i mean there were what five thousand eight hundred seventy. Six eligible voters only three thousand one hundred seventeen cast ballots. That's kind of interesting that right off the top. What's what's normal for that. Do you know like when there's a union drive about what is the the average participation rate. I i mean. There's i don't know i wouldn't say that. There's an average participation rate. I mean it really really really depends. So yeah i don't wanna i don't wanna say there's a like a specific threshold you would typically see I mean of of the votes that were cast there were one thousand seven hundred and ninety eight cast against the union and seven hundred thirty eight four and again the union for for anybody. Who's not familiar with the story. We're talking about the retail wholesale and department store union But yeah they got less than less than thirty percent of total votes cam. That was it. Yeah i haven't looked into a lot of the fallout from this or what happened. Or what the reactions of been i mean. Obviously the company is going to be thrilled with this result. I think you know not because just these these. Five thousand workers won't be union members. But you know they've they've had it off a potential drive that could could affect other other parts of the company and other places so i mean it's quite good for them but what happens to the employees now. And and what's the fallout ben from this vote. Yeah well i mean the union for its part. They're they're already asking federal label labor officials to to investigate the you know. The unions filed unfair labor. Practice charges against amazon. You know they're alleging. That amazon created an environment of coercion. There were fear of of reprisals against workers Of course amazon has denied all this. I mean specifically. We're talking about for the for the better part of seven weeks. Workers were allegedly forced to attend. Anti-union meetings I mean. I feel like this should be illegal or or is illegal or is it okay. Well yeah that's a great great question cam so I wanna i wanna put some links in the show notes. There's some been some really fantastic articles written about just this subject and just how much range the employers have in the united states in terms of you know anti union sentiment And there's just so much gray area here particularly when you're talking about a company of amazon stature and money but yeah i mean it's it's some of the stuff where you know there is these meetings and then addition to that they were workers were allegedly bombarded with anti-union texts. They're even flyers placed in in the bathrooms. So i mean given the number of unfair labor practice charges came. I wouldn't be surprised if the union ultimately wins the right to hold and other election. You know and that's not uncommon on a common for union organizers to make multiple attempts before they successfully unionized workplace so. I don't think that this story is over at this particular plant. But we'll you know we'll we'll see what happens as somebody who knows nothing about this subject. I find that also kind of odd that they can vote lose and then just keep voting until they keep holding these until they until they win. That also seems like maybe not not not the best way to do it. But i guess as normal well well yeah it kind of is it kind of is you know. I don't want to say it's rare for for a union to be successful in their first shot and trying to trying to get into a to work environment but it's certainly not uncommon for there to be multiple multiple attempts But you know. I think you're right off the top. I mean the the obvious point here. Is that amazon has definitely dodged a bullet right particularly as we were chatting about this last week. The working conditions the increased pressures on employees amazon during the pandemic. It's really really put amazon under the microscope and it sort of looked as though that the union might have some legs here amazon had even been. They've been facing pressure from from washington. Which is something. We haven't really seen Over the last couple of decades around these issues i mean both president biden bernie sanders had sort of indicated some level of support for the for the dr But ultimately fram is on. I mean they launched an aggressive campaign and it clearly proved to be successful right. I mean they're arguing. That workers are paid better than sort of comparable positions at other companies in that they had good benefits. And i guess they on some level they were. They were successful in those arguments. Yeah know amazon is well known for being ruthless. I mean th these sorts of issues have come up in the past I'm not sure if you followed you. And but there was. Some sort of angry tweets amazon. Put out a couple of weeks ago related to this related to this issue where where they were quite critical of bernie sanders for instance on twitter and they were really firing back at politicians and was a story. I was thinking you've actually bringing onto the show to discuss because it was such an interesting way for the company to to try and tackle some of these issues because it was aggressive. And you know usually. That's not what is recommended on the communication side. But you know it came to light later. This is jeff bezos and this is his style and he was getting fed up with you know politicians and others sort of hammering at amazon and so he decided to fight back that way. And it backfired. It didn't it didn't look good It didn't look on the company. But i think this goes to what you were talking about. You know earlier that amazon. You know these are important issues to the company And you know. Jeff bezos is is is a fighter and You know it doesn't surprise me that they were putting up. You know signs in bathrooms and and you know pressuring employees to try and vote one particular way. Because i think that's sort of how they do business and i guess in there they would say that this is you know how they run a tight ship and how they keep costs down and how they're able to provide the service that they do provide to millions of people you know. Enjoy that service. So yeah you're right you and this is not the last. We're hearing of this for sure. No no no not at all. Yeah i mean this. Is i think one thing here cam that we we should look at is just the general sort of trend around unionization. The last say forty years writing. We've really seen increased privatization of industry increasing corporate opposition And that's had a dramatic effect on the unionization rates night. I i was looking at in prep for the show was looking at a study. From the economic policy institute it. Us employers spend about three hundred and forty million dollars year on consultants to help keep workers from unionizing and these tactics. They're they're incredibly effective right. And if we sort of look at the percentage of union workers over the last forty years that percentage of workers. It's dropped by half. So i mean not not an insignificant swing and i recall you and i chatting built this last week cam off air. We're chatting both scott galloway and and his sort of take on unions and how they continue to have an image problem right You know one of the other issues. I think that they're struggling with is how do you connect with millennials and gen z. Right if you think about the drop in unionization rates over the last forty years really. There's a greater chance. Now that millennials gen ears years have been raised in a home where their parents did not work in unionized environments that sort of culture and education around unionization that say our parents were part of That we grew up around it simply not as prevalent as it once was and i think that that's something that that unions really have to sit back and try and address. Yeah you're right. I i mean i kind of agree with with with scott galloway in the since I'm not sure unions are the answer You know he did say are there. Other vehicles are other mechanisms or other structures that might better protect or negotiate on behalf of of of labor. I'm not sure i mean. Obviously that's a big question for people much smarter than myself. But i mean i do see his point. I do think the branding around labor unions has been quite poor. And i mean that's for a number of reasons but it's i mean it's just still there and also the working conditions now and the economy now is so much different from the forties fifties and sixties when when the labor union was growing to become so strong in the united states. It's such a different world now. Like there's there are far fewer blue collar jobs for instance. You know there's not there's not one hundred thousand people building automobiles gm in detroit. And i think you know. There's still obviously employees employers who are exploiting their labor for sure. But it's being done in a different way and i think we got to think differently about how to how to try and balance this. I certainly don't don't disagree with your your latter point that we have to think differently about how to deal with this right I mean. I think there's no doubt that there's been an explosion of precarious employment. We've talked about the gig economy You know. I certainly see this in in my practice. The frequency with which i have clients coming in that have worked with the same company for thirty years and are retiring. are becoming fewer. And far between that's simply just not the reality of the working world anymore. We we do not see people working for one or two companies and retiring with good pensions and these working for one or two like i. That's not necessarily a bad thing right like to me. That's neither here nor there might work at one or two companies or you might work at six. By the time he retired but it's not inherently positive or negative on either side. I think what. You're getting out there before i rudely cut you off was was that sometimes. The benefits are impacted by this. And if you're bouncing around a lot there might not be that pensioner that healthcare coverage at the end of the line well i. I don't think whether you bounce around or not Those pensions they. They don't exist. Mean they have largely disappeared percentage of positions where you can have access to those. Those types of benefits no longer exists. So i don't actually think that that's reflective of whether you bounce around or whether you don't i do think that there's been a fundamental culture shift whereas if you go back to say the fifties and sixties there was sort of this understanding that if you were working for a company and the work was generally decent in your pay was generally decent. You stuck around. It wasn't there wasn't this sort of cultural ideal of well. What's the next best thing or is there another option out there for me to to serve. Make a move or make a lateral move Whereas it's sort of difficult to try and conceptualized the workplace nowadays without that particular mindset rain. I mean i think most employees on some level are thinking about some form of upward trajectory. And if that doesn't exist it there with their current employer. then they're not hesitant about making the move to something better right. Yeah as a manager like this i. I want the employees to be ambitious and hardworking and towards something better because ultimately i benefit from that as a manager right i think it is the people who sort of our content and satisfied and come in and this is it that often have problems with because it's just a different outlook. I think i mean. I'm really over generalizing here. But but i do think the attitude is good. I'm not even sure if it's what's better if it's growth and challenging yourself and learning and new experiences all of this kind of comes into the to the to the job market as well and i think this is. I think it does matter to people on the pension side union. It's funny that you bring this up because you know like you know we've invested in one or two sort of you know real estate investments right and i've had my parents like why are you. Not you know buying yourself a nice home to live in and you know and and enjoy and spread out and you know it'll be and i always tell them because i'm not gonna have a pension like i. I knew a long time ago that there wasn't going to be that net to catch me when i'm fifty five or sixty five years old so it's not like i've got decades of planning for this underway already because you're right it's not there and that reality impacts how we live today for many people. Yeah you're absolutely right and that may be very much part of that cultural shift that we've we've made that sort of that transition. Psychologically because we know that we have had to make that transition. Psychologically because that's safety does not exist the way that it once did. Show your support to the or podcast by making a one time donation or sitting up a subscription with his petri on every little bit helps us. Keep the lights on and bring the show to you each week. If you liked to ship in please visit me. You're in law. Podcast dot com. That's pr in la podcast dot com. Click support this show. Thanks for helping us out. Okay you and i have to drop a little plug here for myself. I will be speaking at the marketing. Three sixty influence conference. It's actually holding a conference with the title boot camp for all things content and communications. You can register for this online. I'm going to be a panelist. On two sessions. One of them deals with sort of creating content on a very tight budget. And the other one which i think is extremely interesting. It's on the issue of whether brands whether and how brands should take a stand on social issues and this is that we have touched on on this course. I thought you know this is. This is going to be an interesting discussion. And so i thought i would bring it up in the podcast today as well because we've obviously seen some some movement on this even in the past week so you're familiar with what happened with major league baseball. I guess over the last week You know they were not even just the last week but they were set to have the all star game in atlanta georgia and georgia has recently passed a law pertaining to elections that does restrict access to the polls in reality. I mean it doesn't state so very very clearly but in reality will will result in some restrictions to voting for certain parts of the population. We can guess which parts those are and you know major league. Baseball has pulled. Its all star game out of out of georgia and it's been hammered for that decision you know by republicans who support this piece of legislation and major league baseball which is not political. I mean i think most sports leagues try not to be political with the exception of the nba and think the nfl has become political since colin kaepernick. But but this is something. Mlb does not want to get involved with and it's something that a lot of other companies are are landing in as well so coca cola. Delta are two others they've been criticized for what's happening in in georgia coca cola spoke out about it. Donald trump then spoke about this this about coke's opposition to this law in georgia. And he's calling. It woke a cola. And you know this is tough. Companies are landing in this situation. Un and it's not easy and there's a lot on the line and i think this is becoming something that companies have to really consider date today. We've talked on this show in general about the fact that you know there are certain issues come up. We talked about black lives matter. And the death of george floyd things like that where you have a one case. Maybe every few years or every decade where. There's enough social pressure. You know on on on your company to speak but now this is an ongoing issue. It looks like look. I i have. I have no issue with major league baseball pointing out. I think it was a good move. I think it's good for the development of its brand long-term and here's the thing this idea. That american sports haven't been politicized for very long time. It to me is just completely ludicrous. First of all. I mean think of looking specifically major league baseball cam if you recall after the september eleventh terrorist attacks one of the first things that major league baseball did was it changed the seventh inning. Stretch to you know. People bless america was no longer. Take me out to the ballgame now. Look i'm not. I'm not passing judgment on that decision. However that decision was an overtly political one That major league baseball chose to make. I mean as far as i understand. This is still you sing during the seventh inning. Stretch major league baseball games at least in the united states is god. Bless america can say that you're you know if you're few come to see a blue jays game at toronto. We still seem really up to the ball game. We were in seattle. Two years ago. They sang take out to the ball game. The seventh inning did that. Yeah okay so maybe. They no longer do this. I don't know maybe they only do it. Select parks But that was certainly an overtly political decision you think of the super bowl with the idea of military jets flying over or the you know the integration of the military into american sports in general and again not passing judgment on this one way or the other but to suggest that professional sports haven't been politicized in the united states for some time i think is is is kind of you know inaccurate. Well i guess we should clarify here. I mean if you're talking about sort of patriotic sort of sort of messages for sure. But i think in terms of republican versus democrat. That's an area where sports leagues have tried to avoid. Just because you know you're gonna alienate half of your audience regardless and so baseball. Baseball is very careful about not waiting into those kinds of issues. If it's singing the national anthem and god god save america or whatever god god bless america god save yes please thinking god. Save the queen you know. I do think those things are a little bit a little bit different. But you know one thing that i've noticed that of this is it's very similar to what china has been doing the. Us it is elected officials now pressuring companies. But that's what's been going on in china for a very long time. And i think most recently you know we had an issue over xinjiang. Cotton so xinjiang is a is a majority muslim territory. In china it used to be called east turkestan before it was part of china. And i mean if you read news articles about this you know. There's some serious human rights violations happening in xinjiang and h. and m. had put out a statement saying that it was not gonna use xinjiang cotton any longer and you know that got picked up in the chinese media and with chinese consumers and hmo is persona non grata in china. Now it's done it's completely done In fact it's to the point where you know. Landlords have kicked them out of shopping malls. They've just closed their shops. If you open. Dd which is sort of. China's version of uber in which uber has invested You can't if you try and get picked up at an hmo. They won't they won't your transaction won't go through. You can't even be standing out in front of one to get picked up. I mean it's yeah it's a it's a sort geo blocked or something you can't there's no. There's no way to do that so and you know this is a china is not. It's no longer a want access to this growing market. You know it came out two weeks ago that you know china's going to overtake the us market in size by twenty twenty eight ahead of schedule because of the cove. Nineteen situation where their economy's been growing for know six to eight months already Post post pandemic but this is put h. and m. is in trouble nike was targeted at dot was targeted several other brands. And they've since issued groveling apologies and talking about how they support xinjiang. Things like that but it is interesting to see this. Now turn up in the united states where the same thing is happening and it's all part and parcel of the same thing. These companies don't want to do this. I can guarantee you. They don't want any part of this at all but this is becoming so polarized that they're being forced to choose and i think you know as widespread as this has become already. I think it's gonna get a lot worse. I think some companies like apple are extremely vulnerable. If we're talking about the china example a huge chunk of their business You know is in is in china But it's not the only one you know. There's there's a lot of brands that are having to deal with this. I think you know in the united states. You and back there for a sec. I mean you. Remember the chick-fil-a controversy. Yeah you know. There's so many examples of this. So so what can companies do you know in this situation and you know. I don't have a good answer. I hate to sort of bring that up. That way. Because i bring up the subject today because i do want our audience to think about it as well. I mean from my perspective and in my current role. There have been societal issues. That have come up. And we've considered whether to speak or not and there is not yet a clear blueprint or guideline for how to go about this. But off the top of my head. I mean one area. Is this related to our business or not. And if it's not related to your business that doesn't mean necessarily that you shouldn't say something. Maybe you should people kind of laugh in north america about boycotts. And you know our boycotts really effective. And you know yeah. They're not often even in cases on fox. News where companies are pressured for instance not to sponsor tucker carlson's show on fox. They do drop off but then they resurface again a few weeks later and it continues so they're not effective in general but i think they're getting to be more effective and i think with republicans putting the pressure on companies like major league baseball. I do think they could do some economic damage. I really do. And it's it's a really tough situation to be in what what level because there'd be blowback by these businesses with the republican party as well. I mean there. 'cause i i saw earlier in the week there was was lindsey graham Who said you know. The corporations have no place or no business making taking political stances or something to that effect too badly. The statement and of course. Nobody very quickly pointed out but wait a minute. Where does a lot of your donations come from. They come precisely from these corporations so to suggest that corporations are entitled to take a particular political stance on an issue isn't isn't particularly accurate. With how the american system works or doesn't work. Frankly the case as the case may be right. Yeah exactly and and you know you. In the other. Recent development here is a number of chief executives of of large. Us companies actually held a call. Zoom call over the past several days to talk about banding together on this to speak out against the georgia law. And i think this is an interesting development So some of the companies that were on this call pepsi. Pay pal t. Rowe price hess corp. There were several executive on the call. And you know. I think this is a good way to handle it because i think if companies they are stronger together right like. You can't boycott everyone. You have to buy your goods from somewhere. And i think this is kind of creative way to kind of inoculate the business you know for any widespread boycott effort. Wait a minute. Wait a minute this out. Hey check this out. Wakeup call you to check this out in the pr in law podcast. All right what are you. Yeah i read a fantastic article in the washington post titled Strange journey of cancel from a black culture punch line to white grievance watchword this already. yeah it it It sort of details. The origin of that of the term like your cancelled the origins of cancel culture. And i was not at all familiar with this. And it's a really interesting story that dates back to the early eighties and involves nile rodgers. Cam who you may know from the band chic and anyway the whole story links back to a bad date. That nile rodgers had in the eighties. Really okay s. So he was at a club and the the maitre d' came over and he was going to sit nile and his his date and his date insisted that the maitre d' remove all of the people who are sitting at one of the tables so that they could have it to themselves and rodgers. Basically had to sort of interject. And say yeah. No i don't. I don't i don't roll like that. That's that's not what i do and that effectively was kind of the end of the date. That's how it went. And he went home and he was kind of going over the event while he was working on a new song which ended up being titled. Your love is cancelled really. Yes that was the song. And that is the first first incident that we know of i reference of this idea of being cancelled and from there. Cam it's really interesting. So the line then shows up in the nineties gangster flick. New jack city and then again in rapper fifty cents two thousand five track hustler's ambition and then it made its way to reality. Tv in vh one's love and hip hop. But it all goes back to a bad date. That nile rodgers had And of course has been appropriated in a whole host of ways since that time. Wow wow i had no idea of the back on that and you know the interesting thing is is instill well defined. This term is going to be around for a long time and it's going to be used by all kinds of different people in different ways. I see how some people are calling it. accountability culture. i think that's putting a positive spin on it. But anyway i don't wanna get into all this because we we could be talking forever about cancel culture but i definitely want to read that it does sound interesting all right coming with its torius b. I g you know. I remember the rap sort of east west feud back from nineteen ninety s and. I mean it was biggie. On the east coast in brooklyn and it was two pox out in california and both of them ended up dead. They were both shot both murdered both of those crimes are unsolved at this point anyway. I do remember this from the nineties. And i mean i remember the music obviously but but not much more than that And just recently. I had a friend sort of listening to one of these songs. Hit them up. Which is done by. And i was listening to the lyrics. Oh wow that is. This song is really harsh. And it's sort of really taking taking up piece at a biggie and You know. After that i went just reading again just curiosity i went down the rabbit hole and i found a podcast special on. Slates slow-burn podcast. They look at a different issue. Every season and season three they looked at the west rap battle. And i really thought it was. It was really well done It's an eight part series. And i it. It looks at sort of the background of hip hop and rap and set the stage from the late one thousand nine hundred eighty s with nwa and ice cube and on into into the nineties with biggie to park and all of the host of characters dr dre and snoop dogg and all of these guys so it was really good. Podcast series. i do recommend second is actually netflix. Special i just learned the other day that netflix has put together a documentary on the life of christopher wallace also known as notorious b. I g And i mean. I have to say it's really interesting. It focuses on his life. More than the feud with the west coast. But his life There's a lot of stuff in there. That i was not aware of and there's a lot of home home. Movie style footage with some of his good friends who went on tour with him around the united states. And i guess a lot of this footage is basically never been seen before. So i would say i liked it. I i think if you're a fan of this era or these two guys or two is probably worth. Listen i i thought it was a little bit light on the actual feuding between the two sides. It was more of a look at biggies past. But i mean both of those for sure. If you're into this if you remember it still gic Yeah this is a great great great bits of entertainment. Okay so start with the podcast. I'll go with china's that's the stronger one. Yes okay okay good. And that's that's where. I'll start because yeah i definitely. I remember this Andy and look. I mean it's just it's just tragic any way you cut it. I mean you had just two brilliant. Brilliant artists cut down in their prime. You know in the hip hop community. Never been the same sense right. Yeah yeah absolutely. And just the the impact of they had like. I've even gone back in the last couple of. I've been listening to some nineties era hip hop actually as a result and it some like you know i remember back then it was sort of seen as maybe a fad like hip hop or rap was kind of mike might fade away and it's it's been exactly the opposite. It's it's a whole new genre really that really got its footing back then in the nineties absolutely absolutely. Yeah pop hip hop rules man No doubt no doubt about it. Yeah you know. Maybe the guitars will come back. Some point in time but Yeah it's it's a it's a different world out there now. Yep it's great all right. We're getting set to wrap this one up anything. You want to add anything Angel wish are wonderful listeners. Before we close well. Yeah cam i do. Actually i want to wish you a happy. Belated birthday thanks. And you know it was your birthday earlier this week. Yeah he had a good one. Yeah it was. It was lovely. I mean i talked about the holidays here. In hong kong added five day weekend last weekend and so One of those days was was the birthday and it was great like i slept in a sunny day. Went went down to the water and a nice meal. A wonderful actually location is so good now. Look i'm just. I'm a nice time for me is like nothing on the calendar and A nice or or glass of whiskey and yeah chill out. I'll see you must be loving this pandemic thing cam because it's pretty much been low keys pretty much every day. Well party year now. Interestingly i actually went out on friday evening because the bars are open here and they have been for a while and you know there was a bunch of people inside of a bar and i was with a couple of friends and we had masks off drinking pints. And we're at that stage here because there's no cases anymore and we were talking at the time saying like most of the world. You can't do this. You can't sit around and order pints and chat with friends so yeah it is. It's sort of a a sobering moment to say. Wow this is. We're quite fortunate to be able to even do this at all right. Yeah even psychologically like haven't you just notice when you're watching old tv shows movies. Abc people these people embrace or an elevator or just getting close physically close with each other. What do you do it. What are they doing right now. You have to double take in your head. It's so weird. see. I i get this when i see. Sports highlights from a long time ago and i go. There's fans of this. That look so cool. 'cause that's so so rare now but anyway they are coming back in the us a lot of these cities so all right well you and let's wrap it. Thanks everyone again for joining us. You can obviously follow us on social media. Please do that and get the word out about the podcast. It's the only marketing. We've we've really got so we do appreciate that and you can get our newsletters well. Pr law podcast dot club. 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