Sex & the Brain with Dr. Helen Fisher
Thanks for listening to as sex with Emily today show, I'm joined by renowned sex researcher and educator, Dr Helen Fisher to talk about sex, the brain, and so much more topics include while we're tracking to certain people more than others. Hint has to do with your hormones dating online. The real ways to do it efficiently. No matter what appear on rejection. Why is it so hard? And how can we cope with it and how millennials date and interact, and despite all the news articles are actually doing something right? All this more. Thanks for listening. Okay, let's be honest. If you're over forty there's a fifty fifty chance that you're one of thirty nine million men affected by erectile dysfunction. And if you're not, you might be one of the thirty nine million partners that's affected as well. I know not everyone experiences at the same and your doctor may have told me under control with medication which is great, but I hear from plenty of you who have totally lost hope you tried it all, or so it seems, but I'm telling you, there's something you can do to fight back and that your sex life is not over. And that E D is definitely not something to be ashamed of Boston scientific is leading the charge to eliminate the stigma to get men and their partners talking about their condition. Their surgical implants have helped almost half a million men return to normal yet normal sexual function men, who thought they tried everything time to lose the shame and take control to learn more about Boston scientific treatment options. Go to sex with Emily dot com slash no shame. That's my site sex. With Emily dot com slash NO. S. H. A. M E today. The eyes of. Five six is that our secret? Cruel is they call them in a bygone. You got a boyfriend because my money here. He just got his heartbroken anything's kind of cute understand the women know about shrinkage isn't a common knowledge. What you mean like laundry shrink not about sex so much kidding me. Oh, why while flare? So being be in bed feels pretty good, but, you know, he's not the kind of job you just playing. You're listening to sex with Emily. We're talking about sex relationships and everything in between. For more information, check out sex them that conference even more great sex and relationship information. Catch me Monday through Friday on Sirius XM stars from five to seven PM Pacific for even more fund sex talk, and you can get a free thirty day trial at sex with Emily com slash s X m as always mean, all social media at sex with Emily guys. I really hope you enjoyed this interview that I recorded with Dr Helen Fisher, at her home in New York, she's a renowned sex researcher and biological anthropologists. She has been an idol an inspiration for me. I swear we are kindred spirits. She's a senior research fellow at the Kinsey institute, she's a member of the center for human of luminary studies. Rutgers University and chief scientific advisor to match dot com. She is truly paved the way for research about love and personalities sex drive attachment and all the things I really hope you. This interview with Dr Helen Fisher. Dr Helen Fisher, she's a biological anthropologist. Senior research fellow at the Kinsey institute, member of the center for human evolutionary studies. Rutgers University in scientific chief advisor to match dot com. And you really truly have paved the way for research about love personality, sex drive, attachment, and been named by business. Insider is one of the fifteen most amazing women in science today. Written six internationally, bestselling books on romantic love in future sex, including why we love. Why him why her and Adamy of love and you truly have been a pioneer in all these fields pioneer. Examining the nearer chemistry of business team building innovation leadership. That's more recently. But I have to tell you the story. So I started this podcast in two thousand five and I was in San Francisco, and I was driving, and I was just still learning everything about sex, because I came into it like all I knew was like sex could be a lot better than it is. I think and I just started interview. Appeal about sex and relationships. So you happen to be NPR, and I believe you being interviewed about why we love. And I remember I pulled off the road. I grabbed a piece of paper that I just started. I was like, so blown away because I had never heard about the three types of love, I was just it was so new to me to learn about lust and an attachment and craving and all those things and I was just I think I still have the piece of paper because I don't throw anything away. But then I just got all your books. I started reading about you, and just I was like, you know, and then just we've heard really I mean, I mean you're, you really are pioneer. Everyone just all my friends. I can't believe you're talking. Thank you for taking the time. You and we had a good time if you years ago. At the moment, we were both at a match because I know you do such amazing work for match dot com or your adviser for them. And we were speaking in an event, it was a very interesting panel it was Helen and myself and Patti Stanger the matchmaker and pres- Hilton, and the flavors were talking about the, the match panel. And then afterwards we, we were just talking. I dismember feeling like we were both women who chose not to have kids, absolutely no. Never wanna do. No. And you're okay with that. You're I'm not only okay was it? But, you know, I see young women today and I, I always say to them, at least I was never disappointed that I didn't have them. In other words, a lot of women are worried that they don't want to have them, but they are frayed that down the road, they're going to get disappointed. Now it's just me, but I, I mean, I've had two men in my life, who had children, who I helped to raise, but they were already in their teens. I love teenagers. I love to be with teenagers. I mean, I love being the other woman, you know, I don't have to worry that they're not wearing socks or that they're not studying hard enough. I don't want anybody killing themselves, but it's fun to be not the mother and be sort of an older person who can give you give some advice or listen to them. So many times they say, don't tell my father and I don't tell their father, I'm building a different kind of relationship with them. And, you know, I mean, I'm an apologist is, you know, and for millions of years, you know, young people had all kinds of people. Could confide in. I mean, they lived in a little community a little hunting gathering group, and you had your mother, but you had aunts and uncles, and cousins, and older brothers and sisters, and younger people. And, you know, all kinds of people that you could talk to, and I like playing that role for the young for anybody. That's exactly it's exactly how I feel right now. Is it and now we're really missing that because I've three nieces. I all my friends kids caught my friends. Call me now. And I, I will not tell your mother, and I want never would like a great. It's like being the ant to it's the best relationship. I think that's so interesting what you're saying about it, and I would thinking that a lot lately, to how we move away from our communities and like it used to be. We were hunter gatherers everyone was around our mothers, and our our grandparents. And now we have this isolation in this epidemic of loneliness about. And I think that that's, that's really real that I don't know whether it's real. I mean, I haven't studied it. I certainly read about it, but I do know that the, those people that spend more time on the internet also have more friends and see their friends more often, so. There's always two sides of the two sides, by the way. I mean, you know, we, we send over fifteen thousand emails, and I don't even know how many text every year. I mean it's just that they're not right in front of us all the time. I mean, you know, I am in constant contact with all kinds of people lost by cell phone, two days ago, and it was a major problem for me. I'm just saying we're just isolated. I guess I was thinking about the way I was raised without having family around and stuff. So let's talk about the stuff that you aren't so thing about not having family around. I think that we build new family, and for example, I call it the urban clan now I have an identical twin sister, but she lives in France. And I have an older sister, who lives in Germany, and I until very recently had a brother that lived in Independence, Missouri and nieces that are all over the place. But I have I have a clan in New York. I mean, I have people in New York, and they're all different ages. I mean, the one is twenty four and one is Eighty-six. But, you know, these people I could call on if I was really in any kind of trouble. And so we, we do build family, just not the traditional concept of family of, you know, and I think that's one of the reasons that sort of these holidays can be very difficult. You, you will go off to your family of origin, your NATO family and you really don't know a lot of them. You don't know what to give. Them for president and this and that and you leave your urban clan or your you know, your work clan or your exercise clan or your social clan etcetera etcetera, which people who have suffered through sort of the daily problems that you've suffered through. So we are now will that builds family and you know, that, that is true, then, but I do think that when you talk about loneliness, this whole thing of foam fear of missing out, and there's no question about it. That because of our internet world. We see what everybody else is doing. We see where they're traveling. We see all the photographs of where they went. We see all about their boyfriends and their problems in their girlfriends, etc. And I do think that maybe that's what they're saying when they're talking about loneliness. I mean we're seeing a lot less murder among the young, but a lot more suicide. And that probably is from loneliness. I just you know what it is. I've just been thinking a lot about family at attachment and just thinking about that. It was so much. Maybe it was a little easier than we had everyone around us. And now we are rebuilding. And again, be we are building in, you know, well, the nice thing about is that we can build what we want. Exactly. Can we talk? Okay. So let's. Mom, love you mean it? But Michigan, and that's cool. So, but let's okay so I mean so when I pulled off the side of the road, it when I was listening to. But it was the first can you just talk about to break that down to my listeners like the three basics of love. We've talked about this for years, and then we're going to build upon this, but the lust romantic attraction attachment. Yeah, I was I was walking actually in, in a park in New York City several years ago. And it's I wonder if we've evolved three distinctly different brain systems for mating, and reproduction one is the sex drive second is feelings of intense, romantic love, and the third is foods of deep attachment, and that all kinds of love is some combination of those three. No, I'm not you would not going to be in love with your mother. You just feel deeply attached to your mother. You're not gonna want to have sex with your mother etcetera etcetera. So there's going to be all different kinds of combinations that we make. But I think that these three basic brain systems evolved, and they evolved for different reasons. I think the sex drive evolved to get you out there looking for a whole range of. Partners may even have sex with somebody. You're not in love with. I think romantic love evolved to enable you to focus who made energy on just one of the time and start the mating process. And I think this feelings of deep attachment evolved to enable you to stick with this person, at least long enough to raise a child together as a team. So these things do different jobs. We feel attachment to all kinds of people. What's interesting is. When I looked into the brain romantic love can be triggered instantly. It's like a brain system like the fiercest, you can be scared instantly. And you can boom, you can fall in love instantly or site. Right at first sight. I think it's often love at first sight, you know, I, I do all these studies with match. It's talk about all your studies, and one of the questions was do believe in love at first sight, not sex for less present. But love it for Saint and over fifty percent of both men and women said, yes. And when I asked the question has it ever happened to you? I think it's something like forty percent of men at said, yes. And a little, I think. Ninety nine percent of women. Thirty percent of women. At said, yes, but you have to be ready for it. I mean you know, as you grow up, you, we've all what I call a love map and unconscious list of what you're looking for in a partner. And then suddenly, the time is right. You're ready to fall in love. And you see somebody who fits within that love map even somewhat and they smile at you and they laugh with you. Or they're they crack a joke instantly. You can trigger that brain circuitry for romantic love and fall madly in love, not just lust but in love. And, you know, these three brain systems a lot of people get them mixed up. They feel that lust comes first and then romantic love, and then feelings of attachment, but these are brain systems they can operate in any combination. I mean you have some wonderful friend at school, or at work, and it's just a nice attachment and you feel deeply tash and then suddenly you're, you're, you're free. They're free and boom, you can feel romantic love, then you can feel the sex drive or you can fall in love. First, and then suddenly, everything once you fall in love with somebody everything becomes sexual about them. What have you get stuck though? One of these days. What if you're only like in the last phase the grounds for people who can't move on or can attach right? I think the different times of life. We're looking for different kinds of things. I mean, I know go go right now who just really wants to sleep around. That's what he wants to it just really want. It does not want any kind of attachment. He had long attachment to somebody, and he's done with that for the moment. Well, he'll probably get back to it. We'll see. And then there's some people I call them romance junkies in. They need that thrill that dopamine high the elation the giddiness the fauria, the romance. And so as as that begins to settle down a bit into a deep attachment, then they'll feel claustrophobic and want to move on. And then there's people, I call them attachment junkies that can't leave a bad partnership because they're stuck. They have that sense of attachment. Even if it's quite abusive. So actually, I think that. All three of these brain systems can be perfectly wonderful and all them can be perfectly horrible. I mean, I think you can have a real sex addiction, a real romance addiction or real attachment addiction, but when they're working. Well, and when you've found all three in the same person that's a beautiful addiction. Exactly. How is this change? This is because this was a huge this was to research that you did. It's made a huge impact. And what do you see as being the biggest impact has had on the way people think about love and attachment or at least how could people could learn from this now like, how could they learn about themselves in the way they date? And the way they love. I think my recent research is probably the most important for that analogy. Oh, yeah. Let's and yeah. You know, I mean I think you really learn it's nice to know about these three branches. It's nice to know what's happening to you. And it's nice to think think a little bit clearly about it and you know, stay away from things that, that don't work. I mean I said to a man last night, I was at this gala on, and he said, well, so, and so, and he broke up and I said, well, stay broken up. She she's not the right person for you. I I've, I've known their saga for several months in this just too much drama. And they're you know they're both wonderful people, but they're not right for each other right now. And maybe they never will be so timing or I mean so your I love your we took the personality quiz. Oh you did. Oh, how awful, I bet. You're just like me, are, you know what? I'm dopamine. Well, lar- explorer negotiator. Yeah. Explorer negoti absolute. Yes. And, and I, I knew without even rubers reading the dopamine. I'm like, yes, I am dopamine. So, well, let's talk about the person because not everybody knows who could send them to your quizzes. Well, we'll put this in the put this in the show notes who can take your quiz. So let's just talk about the research you, Dan loving personality types for a second. So, and then we'll break it down to that where the same match dot com came. To me in two thousand and five and said, you know why do you fall in love with one person rather than another? And I said, I don't know. I mean, nobody knows. I mean we do tend to fall in love with people from the same socioeconomic background. Same general level of intelligence, same level of good looks educational level, same religious, and social, and economic goals, reproductive goes, but you walk into a room and everybody's from your background, and say level of intelligence and good looks and educate and you don't fall in love with all all the time. So now all the time Michigan I got a nice guy for you know. Where in Michigan Attica is in Bloomfield hills. Okay. Yeah. I went to school there. But it's okay great school, but I began to think to myself, okay? Maybe base basic chemistry draws you naturally towards one person rather than another. I mean, people will say, well, we have chemistry or we don't chemistry. So what does that make Allen fish? So cute. What are you studying everyone's well? So anyway, what I did is I went through the last forty years of biological literature looking for any trade at home linked with Amy biological system. And there's a lot of systems in the brain, but they keep most of them. Keep the eyes blink, you know, the heart beating the not link with personality traits. But these four are the dopamine serotonin testosterone and estrogen systems. So I listed the traits of each one of these basic brain systems, and made a questionnaire for match to see to what degree you express the traits in the dopamine serotonin testosterone and estrogen system, over fourteen million people have now taken that questionnaire in forty till. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And in forty countries and million people love question. They do. They look budget is the day. Right. We all love the quizzes. But now because this one is the only actually the only one on earth is built on basic brain circuitry. No, no. I know that's bragging. But the bottom line is you. Brag enough. Jesus, thank you. Thank you. Really? So anyway, so here are the four traits that are linked with each with these systems. And then I was able to watch on match in all these countries who's naturally drawn home, and that's where high had suddenly slipped into mother nature's kitchen and begun to figure out. Why him why her why you fall in love with one person rather than another? But anyway, high, why am I here, which is also if you are interested in this at all you want more in your book, why and the question here is in that? In much more detail and how to get along with these people, but anyway, people are very expressive of dopamine system. I call explorers, Emily. You're one of why risk taking novelty seeking curious creative spontaneous energetic, mentally, flexible and idea generation, these are the people who come up with out of the box ideas, and they're drawn to people like themselves. Explorers want explorers. They want somebody who's going to leap off the couch and I dunno go swimming in central Parker racing over to Lincoln center at the, you know, ten minutes before something's going to start and disco in and plop, down. Whatever they want, you know, take their backpack and Gough to Laos and look in the woods, or whatever explorer, twenty-five, went to Las okay? Yeah, he I've I, I love lousy till I loved it. We should go back. We are the only person I've ever met who'd been allows really. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. What about ten years ago? Maybe left probably hasn't changed del hopefully not. I was like Bush whacking. Wow. So there you go. Here's an explorer. Yeah. I've been to one hundred seven countries. Yeah. And Gooding North Korea Mongolian, you know, that's the explorer. Anyway, the bottom line is high Sierra tournament. I called his people builders they, they like the familiar, their traditional conventional. They follow the rules. They respect with authority. They think they think concretely instead of theoretically. They, they like schedules in plans, they, they tend to be quite social, and they tend to be religious, religiosity is actually on the system. And these people are drawn to people like themselves. Traditional goes with goes for a good example is Mike Pence or Mitt Romney. I mean they've married people who are very traditional themselves. They follow the rules are very structured, there, concrete thinkers, their principal. Do you think you do you follow the roles like, d of never? Now. I, I mean, I follow the rules of makes sense to me. But that's about it. I'm good on the road. I follow the rules of the road. Mostly I love this. Great. And but anyways, so that type goes with that type, and so the high testosterone goes for high estrogen and vice versa. So people are very high testosterone tend to be in lyrical logical direct decisive tough-minded skeptical good. At what we call rule based systems, everything from engineering to computers to math to mechanics. Uh Steve Jobs was a good example. I'm sure Bill Gates is Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton is I think she's high testosterone she she she was actually interested in going into the marines. I mean she's tough-minded that girl, and she married, a high estrogen. That's amazing. That Bill Clinton was probably high high estrogen. Well, these people are verbally skilled people skills. He's whole world goes, you can't stop negotiate and directors directors at the high testosterone and the negotiators of the high estrogen and negotiators. Yeah. Ver-. They think broadly contemptuously. And of course, that's you. Because the person constantly interviewing people constantly thinking outside the box, constantly looking for other ways of seeing particular show is going to be high estrogen person. Yeah. Verbally skilled, people skills can deal with ambiguity. Very good. Nurturing trusting diplomatic Tinley a mentally flexible. So they go for their opposite. He said were explorers ripe. You said we go. Would we only date other explorers though, because to me who's going to pay the Bill who's gonna make sure we got place on time? You know. Right. It's why I think maybe I've been more attractive to testosterone or the director. Well, the bottom line is where we are. We are we are we are all for. I mean, the problem with all his other personality questionnaires. Is that they put you in one bucket, or another, these are brain systems? They're not bucket. So, for example, my boyfriend and I are both high dopamine that works. Fine, he I am high estrogen. And he's high testosterone. So that works. Fine too. He is higher serotonin. And in this case, I mean, he's not that high or I wouldn't have a hard time at anybody. Right. But he's higher than I am. And so he plans everything, and it's sort of beautiful because I, I mean yesterday we were driving through Pennsylvania, and man, he knew where we were going going, eight knew how long we can take to get there. He got our hotel room. You know we got to the hotel too late. And we were looking forward to go to that restaurant. He immediately got on his phone and found another really nice place to go all of that. If it'd been unite we would have gotten out the door and started walking. Time to. When they would invite us over for dinner, maybe whatever. But, but this is the thing with my accent. I was saying this that we, he's great guy, but I'm like, no one plant anything like I'm not a planner and that I felt kind of like which is always a thing. So I was like, how do I figure this out ahead of time? I'd never been in that situation before because he kept saying, why aren't you planning stuff? I'm like, oh. If I haven't been in this situation because I must have always been the person who plans. Right. So anyway, so using this quiz, he must have always been with somebody who plans guests so because we're gonna couch. Oh, well not a lot. He wanted play video. There was many things that didn't work but in. Yeah. Love into, really the boyfriend, but it's just interesting to learn, but what's, what's, what's really interesting enough. For example, he and I, we're going to the movies this was months ago, and I said, to my since we don't have to have any water in your backpack. And he said, yeah, I do. And I said, oh, great. We can drink it in the movie house. These no, we can't you can't bring food or drink into a movie house. You got to buy it at the concession stand. Right, Sarah, Tony hit a moment of serotonin. They like now is in the backpack. I said, well, but what's beautiful is, you know, I mean I modern psychology is very good. It's all very good. But the bottom line is, we are blaming everything these days on our mother and our child at some of who we are is just biological. He wasn't stubborn about that water because of the way he grew up is who he is, is who he was born is, who is going to be an under those circumstances. You just have to do a work around. You don't have to go to congress office for fifteen years to wonder why he can't bring water to movie house is who he is. And then I said, okay. We by the water, you know, the concession stand. So the bottom line is, I mean, if psychology has added a great deal about who we are, and how to get along. And it's and it's all good. I mean, John Donovan is a brilliant, man, you know, about don't show, contempt. Don't threaten divorce, listen, actively all very good. But the bottom line is get to know who the person also is biologically, and you can make a good relationship. Now, for example, my man. He has these crazy, wonderful ideas. I love them, you know. Right. And somebody else would be very impatient with all this. But it works perfectly for me. And it's who he is. He's not gonna change people don't change either. They don't say they can we can damage you? But, you know, I mean could I ever make you uncured? I don't think so could I ever make you I'm into view, and I went to Laos together. We'd plan a little bit. We'd figure out what you're saying. Right. But we wouldn't have a plan for what we're gonna do every day for three weeks. We would not do that. We've already came to cancel date three exactly. We'd we'd bring a little guidebook, and we get breakfast would figure out what we're doing. We need to do something together for. No. You're right. It's very but so. Okay. So going back to this for second and I've had a lot of therapy. And I've also had lot of different kinds of therapy. But I thought it was useful. I know what you're saying. Could you can spend too much time talking about your childhood because eventually do just be like understand where you came from and then move on from there. But what about like can we go into like attachment styles a little bit? 'cause isn't there to kind of know why you attach her. Sure. Things about the learn constantly like learning more about that, too. So am I I'm really learning about that personally needed by, because I always for your four years old. And then ninety no if your mom wasn't looking at your eyes like you're everything to her. What if she kept leaving the room and then you feel not loved, or if you had abuse? I mean, all of that's very worthwhile. There's no question about it. What I'm trying to do is at the second half of the puzzle. A huge number of other people are adding that half of the puzzle your childhood, the trauma traumas, who you are, how you expect the world to behave around you what you're looking for an apartment all of that is, I think extremely valuable. But this a second half of this puzzle, which is who you're built to be and a good forty to sixty percent of who you are does come out of your biology. Some people are going to are there homebodies, they're going to keep being homebodies in less. They don't wanna be a homebody, and then they marry somebody who wants to go out all the time. And there may be some friction in it. But I mean, I think you just have to know not only who you are. But who your partner spent are never example? I've got a friend, a girlfriend whose very high testosterone. I'm very high estrogen. So I'm I just don't do conflict. I just, I just I'm not in, I just, I just don't do conflict. I guess I can't cope with it. I just don't do it. So one day recently. I met her for lunch and I walked in, and she said, Helen Where'd you get the purse, and I said, well, I put it in the street. And she said it looks at it looks cheap. And I said, Marie. And she said Helen, I'm just trying to be honest with you. I'm trying to be helpful, but the high estrogen type take takes it as an attack. Yeah. And so what you when you understand that she's trying to I mean, I'm glad she said that, but one of the problems with high testosterone is that I don't fight back. You know, and then one time I did fight back and I said, an aft when I fight back. It's perfectly fine with the high testosterone. They're used to that. But then I go home. And I say, why did I say that? Oh I feel like such a he'll. Right. Our felt so aggressive. And so I mean it's hard to, to not is hard to be somebody that you really are not, like we can act out of character. It's just tiring. And in my case, it can just be, you know, very socially anxious. Mostly socially, anxious funny. I am totally conflict avoid it. And I, I guess I love what you're saying because I mean, hold like sixteen light bulbs went off because in a way, it's like I like that too, and I kind of, like it was like, no, Emily. You're not where my friend came over. She, she must be high testosterone. She cleaned out my whole closet. She was helping me because I was too much stuff and clutter Jake, this is cheap. You can't wear it again. And I was like, great like I it wasn't didn't make me trying to accept, but she and I appreciate her directness, and she literally like no, these are done these are done. Get this rid of this, and we need people like that in our lives. But it just funny thinking about the people were attracted to even as friends, but yet conflict, I have been over. Ever heard to travel with somebody like that for me. Oh, yeah. You know what your way? I know what you're saying appreciate her, and she can appreciate you. Appreciate your she dies Sheila less important. So yes, we because I've got friends who just they just think I'm weak because I'm sweet and I'm pleasant and I'm become a dating and I'm trying to level the playing field and they take that, as weakness, do they tell you. But when you know, they treat me that way. You know that you don't wanna be around those from not long. Too tiring exhaust. It's just draining the ones that are doing. I think you learn this, as you get older, you start to shed. I've been we're gonna miss Jamie who sitting care. She's my millennial producer who I love she's twenty six is we have to talk about. We're gonna get into my obsess, but it's like I'm like, no, this happens in life like her friends from high school, sometimes I don't know that they serve you, and it's okay to change and grow and shed. But it's absolutely well. Anymore. If you're not, if it's conflict, and you see every time you call me, I'm anxious. I see the folk. Let's going to be stressful. No, well onto their friends, particularly the high estrogen tonight, they're going to hold onto their you know, because they fill up oblige and, and I think we may nine you I think women do an awful lot of things that they don't feel like doing. That's true. Learn that you don't have doom anymore. But I guess if it's part of who you are. I, I know I'll always good friend. And I'm a pleaser to guess you're making me. I'm a pleaser horrible, horrible. Please. Please, please. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. My friend finally said to me last week. She said, thank you. You've just said, thank you so much income. So picture, though, she goes, but after a while it's diminishing returns like like you could just say, thank you once and, oh, that's interesting. I was like sixty years. Thank you all the time with me. I'd get it right on the literally. I'm so grateful. Now, it'd be sick out. I mean it though I wanna know me. So now I get it raised with it was you and me it was so fun doing this years ago. I was doing this photography thing with the photographer, and it was a woman, and it was me, and we would get out of sync. So I would be moving when she was clicking. And I was oh, I'm sorry. She said, oh, I'm sorry. I say, oh, I'm sorry. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And finding the guy who was her crew said, why the two of you constantly, so sorry we get it? We can't just don't bother us. Language. Right. Or guys, we're gonna take a quick break in after this more with Dr Helen Fisher. So let me tell you about my first time buying this extra. I was twenty two years old living in San Francisco. And I walked into a local shop called good vibrations. It really blew my mind. I mean I pictured sex toy stores to be these dark dingy places, but it was so open and well, let it was like an apple store for vibrators. So I walk in and one of the workers approach me and she immediately put me at ease. She was like, hi. So let's talk about your dozens, you would think a stranger asking that would make you nervous, but she immediately made me feel so comfortable, and help me figure out, what would be best for me. Thank you pucker rocket at the time I wasn't even aware that my life would also become devoted to helping people with orgasms and sex, or that I be fortunate off to war with good vibrations later down the line. This is why am so excited to have you guys get to know them as well. If you don't already. I mean they do run some of the best and most respected adult boutiques in the country, and now with their online, store you have that same stopping experience and expertise without ever leaving your. House. Seriously guys, they just know quality. I mean, the have it in their store, I trust it. And if they don't I have to question it a bit more. It's not just me that feels this way. I can't stress enough the standard they set in industry, and I'm even more excited because now good vibrations runs the shop with Emily page on my website. So being a lookout for some great sex toys, and sexy announcements to see everything good vibrations has to offer. Just go to sex with Emily dot com slash good vibrations. That's my site sex of them lead dot com slash G. O. O. D. V. I. B. R. A. T. I O, N S. I want to tell you about one of the oldest, and most trusting relationships in my life. It's probably the only one that's like, never really let me down. I'm talking, of course about the magic wand. I mean, the magic wand was a big part of my life, even before, I started the show, and it's not going anywhere in my life or anyone else's. I mean you want to know why the magic wand. And has been delivering pleasure for fifty years long time. And so the best-selling massage wanted in the world, I think it is something to do with all that power. I mean they don't call it the Cadillac vibrators for nothin'. Whoa. It's a good one, and even though it's not easy to improve on something. So timeless, they did it again with the latest version called the magic wand, plus an it is awesome. So, like the original the magic wand, plus is a full-size Plugin massage want. If features a soft silicone head easy to use controls and variable speed. That lets you go from a low rumble two O, M G with the push a button. And if you don't have a magic, wand, new life. Trust me. You should there are now three models to choose from original rechargeable, and the all new, plus you can see them all and go unfor- yourself at sex with Emily dot com slash magic. One that's my site, such dot com slash magic. Want I am so excited to let you know you can now hear sex with only live five days a week on Sirius XM radio. You'll. In stars channel one. Oh, nine Monday through Friday at five to seven PM Pacific, eight to ten PM eastern. But don't worry the podcast staying right here. My brand new radio show, have everything you love about sex with Emily, and more. Because every day, I'll be interviewing guests sharing the latest news and my favorite part. Taking your calls live on the air two hours, every weekday if you're Sirius XM subscriber, you already know how great it is. If you never tried it. Get a free trial for thirty days. Just go to sex with Emily dot com slash s x m that's sex is only dot com slash s x m today to try Sirius XM for yourself. See there. Okay. Let's talk about millennials in the start of this whole like. I think it's such a bad rap. Right. But it's a bad rep is wrong. The whole thing it is so wrong. I mean first of all, this these dating apps is just new technology. You have to learn how to use it. The only real algorithm is your own brain, you got to get out and meet the person and these dating they're not as I say, this at match and they know it. And everybody else does, too. These are not dating sites. They're not dating apps there. Introducing app introducing sites and what they are is they just give you an awful lot of people, and then you have to sift through it. The problem is the human brain is not built to even cope with so many choices. The brain has a sweet spot, apparently between five and nine alternatives. And after that, you don't choose any, you just don't use any I hear about these people who had thirty dates in thirty days. No wonder I mean, they're just completed, they're not going to meet anybody. And so I basically ended up saying you just have to learn how to use this. This new system I lo-, number one after you've met nine people stop and get to know at least one of those people more because all the data show that the more you get to know somebody, the more you like them. And the more you think that they are like you. So stop after nine for women. Oh, yes. Definitely for men and for a mental and the faster than women do men, fall in love more often than women do men are two times more likely to kill themselves when a relationship is over. It's exactly the same brain circuitry in men as women, but Mendez full faster because there's a visual. Yeah. So, so there's two things a stop after you've met nine people and get to know one of them better. And second think of reasons to say, yes, the brain is built to say no, we've got these huge brain region in the binder forehead in a brain region linked with what we call negativity bias, the brain is built, to think of the negative, for example. Let's say we all go to a party and everybody says. Oh, Emily, you look so great. And this and that. And then somebody says, Emily, have you lost too much weight? What are you going to remember just that? Wait. Yeah. Right. So that just because for them. Absolutely. I mean, for millions of years, it was a dappled to remember who did not like you. Right. It was good to know who you do does like you. But if you forget, who doesn't like you, you could be dead. So we remember the negative, and so when you go out with somebody, you know, in the first date think, of reasons to say is in overlook the fact that he's got Brown shoes instead of black shoes that he's wearing a t-shirt instead of tie, whatever I mean if it's really, you got to get rid of it. Monkey people say they so picky there, so picky. There's opinion. Women and women are pickier than men are for good Darwinian evolutionary reasons. I mean, we you know, we're going to bear that baby dangerous becomes out and black shoes. But what about this whole thing about men decide who they're going to sleep, within forty two minutes or less on a date or going to side with? Decide within three minutes. Absolutely. But what if we decided that, but you're saying, even then go out with them for a second time, even if we're not sure, or we don't think we would be might decide that we perfectly four years older. And you know, speaking with a dreadful accent and don't have any teeth. I mean you go right split but, you know if if it's if it's a maybe go out again. Absolutely one thing that's interesting about, you know, first of all, I'm crazy about millennials. I am really impressed with millennials. They and you are so, right? They get such a bad rep. These people are bishops essay, I really am business. And what's interesting is, you know, people say, oh, they're living at home. Two thirds of people in their twenties, or living at home. Yes, they are. But it's because they're saving them money, and they're building their careers, not because they're lazy and don't want to leave the basement. They are just am bishops there. And they're being very careful about who they sleep with actually I mean, this whole big thing is oh, Molyneaux not insects. One of the reasons they're having sex is they're not live. They're living at home. You can't cut somebody in all the time at your parents house, but they are using what I regard as the sex interview in one study. I did with match thirty-six percent of, of singles head had sex with somebody before the first date and older people get all pushed out of shape about that. And they think, oh, wow. You know, because in my day because I'm older, you know, we had the first day long before you kiss. Somebody these days, they start out with just friends. They're just Franks. And then they move into friends with benefits you learn a lot between the sheets. You get to know somebody then after a period of time you go and tell friends and family and then you have the official first date. And so people say, oh, they're not having a first date early on. No, they're not. They're being more careful with the first eight in these days, a first date is expensive in my day they picked me up after dinner, and we played miniature golf park, you know, whatever, but these days, it can cost you two hundred dollars. If you're in LA or. New york. So you really wanna know who you expanding your money, and your time on what we're really seeing is the extension of what I call the pre-commitment stage is long period of getting to know somebody before you tie. The knot is. I think that makes great sense. In fact, I did a study of eleven hundred married people, and I said to them, you know, a lot of questions I asked. But one of the questions was would you remarry the person you're currently married to an eighty one percent said, yes, and I think that the well I've got three pieces of very solid data that the later you marry the more likely you are to stay married. So what millennials are doing is they're getting their career in order. They're saving their money. They're sleeping around. About themselves, but they're also learning in this recommit mistake, how to get rid of the ones they don't want their learning more about their own sexuality about who they want, what the what kind of sense of humor where they want go kinds of things that learning about before they wed, and I honestly, think that this long period of pre-commitment, and the opportunity to meet people on the internet, so you don't have to make, you know, foolish choices when you're nineteen you can make a good choice. When you're twenty nine a whole lot of years to get to know, yourself and other people. And then, so I, I mean. You know, people do tended to voice I mean, I'm as an anthropologist in hundred gathering society, they did tend to have two or three husbands, during the course of their lives. So there's nothing new about divorce. But I do think that the later we marry while the all the data show that the later we marry the more likely to remain married, we don't know ourselves in our, I always say here, thirty just kind of what? He can't wait till your throat because you've got to figure out who you are. We really not even really you've made the decisions that you haven't been out there to date, as many people to understand what might be exactly. And I love the fact that people are living together before they would, you know, you, you, you learn a lot with that too, and that brings me to. L. A T. So it means living apart together. I think it's largely for people who are not going to children or don't want children now. And for example, my boyfriend came to me, and he said, you know, he said, I want two or three nights in his son, went off to college as now, we could spend time together in the first thing he said to me is he said, you know, Helen, I want to three nights to myself every week. Well, the first thing I did is put my hand behind my back put it. I said, what do you what do you really want four you want to seven breaking up? He said, no, no two three nights a week. It's perfect for me. I have all these girlfriends. They have all these things I want to do at night. Sometimes I just want to go to sleep in book to be in bed with someone all the time. Stand that. And so I mean what were probably doing sustaining this in this romantic tradition? But we're both older. Right. One. What? Your life set. You're set in your ways. And he is his house, I have mine and you know, he'll be here tonight. He was not here last perfectly fine. Look forward to seeing them, you're not picking up socks he's not giving up your Jackley. I think that has his kitchen contents of is ice box fridge Einstein, and what I really like about today is that we have alternatives, you can marry later women can have careers. You can get rid of things that don't work in order to make something that does work. Some of these people are poly-amorous. Well, that's not for me. I couldn't do that. But it's not a matter of morality. I just, I don't have the personality. I'd be too jealous. I don't wanna show. But, but the bottom line is people poly-amorous every the, the. Older people with Elliot t cetera et cetera. I think that we have every reason to be able to build the kind of partnerships that we want. Also hard, then you think for some people to say, okay. Going back Montiel's who they don't want to catch feelings, or they don't want to term feels. I never heard that before you mean it was like for like five years ago. But what does that mean is that, meaning that protective measure or do you think that that some way, I never their friends are doing it, so they don't they're not looking. They don't understand that because I caught feelings a lot of my twenties. I couldn't help it. No, I think they can't either, but they don't want to get. They don't want to get into that long term commitment, when nothing that you said you'd never heard that term, catching feelings. The millennials are adding words to our KOMO that I really, really like I mean, even this thing define the relation. Oh, no. In my day, we, you Anna, somebody maybe for months of not years. And you really had no idea if they were going to ask you to marry him nothing minoring in his pocket. And now is defined. And in fact, I asked on match how many how long do you when do you raise that issue of define the relationship and I was astonished that they said after about four months, I wouldn't dare do it that seems very early for me. But they want to know what's going on. They really do term being ghosted. Feelings. All these defining all this. I really think that's terrific. Yeah. I think so too, because otherwise, you're just like going in this best, and that also people also still make sumptious that we slept together. So we must be committed. We've three dates in that person's probably not dating anyone even though still they're not dating anyone else. Don't make any assumptions about the person who garnered three dates with, like haven't talked about it yet. Right. That's when you get jealous and all these things happen to figure it out. And I think the sooner we realized that there's so many options, it's more accepted right now to, to say to someone I'm casually dating. I'm in friends with benefits. I want that and then, and to say then you will be spending a year with someone who doesn't want this. It makes a lot more sense, even I mean it's so funny because, you know, just friends have very different set of, of unspoken rules than if you're dating. Now, if you're just friends, you can call somebody to go out the day of it, you can have three to five drinks, you can go to fast food place. You can go over their house and watch television. Whereas if you're actually dating somebody, you've got to call three days in advance, you've got to go to decent restaurant, you can't more than two drinks. I mean, they are defining all this. I, I am very impressed with them. Living apart together thing, I talk about how that is such a great thing for even couple married and living together. Now still learn from that because I've always had this hunch that like when as young twenties that makes so much sense that to, to have it's up to kind of talk about how women claimed novelty excitement and all the newness it kind of makes sense to even if you're even living together how you can kinda still instill some of that separateness and it just right. So interesting because I do know people were living together on the property together, and, you know, on the apartment together, and they've lived very often at least in New York. They'll have to even mesh this because she's going out on Tuesday night with girlfriends, and she's going to the theater on Thursday, was such and such, and what's he doing? So they have to I like that. I like the fact that, you know, I mean what is it as Khalil Cabrera on the poets that he's, you know, put some space in your togetherness and? That's we really weren't built for twenty four seven. I mean, even hunting together in societies women would go off to another camp for even a few weeks. I mean, they traveled and they didn't always travel together. Yeah. This or the traveller she travels for work every third week, it's great that you get to miss someone. I've got two girlfriends who during the week? The husband works in Boston, and the wife works in New York. And then they're together on the weekends so long distance. Yeah. It's nice in the beginning with kids and makes a little chat. We're talking like right. When you've kids can't be so it's so interesting because I was talking to a man who was recently married, and as I think a child, who's now something like ten months old. And I talked to him about L A, living apart together, and he's oh, if I could have just one just one night, every two weeks, just to myself, I wouldn't go out with other women just one night in a hotel room and immediately, my friend said, oh, I bet his wife, wouldn't like that. And I thought maybe she would. Someone goes to the hotel room. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. We need that God. All this. I mean, but the nice thing about these days is, we can do that have to be honest about it and, and work, it out, and build build it together. And that's where my man was so great. I mean, I wouldn't have dared to say that we wouldn't have said that it'd been like, because the order at the. I never thought of that in this second, he needed the struck understand well done. No. That, but also had a lot of syrupy because of very bad partnership in, in his past I chalked up to the bad partnership, but I think that you're right structure, Tuesday nights, which ninety coming. Yeah. There you go. Thank you. God, whatever I can do. Let's talk about orgasms oxytocin attachment. So how orgasms bond us because I always say that on the show, where I feel it. I've heard you talk about it in a way that how important it is touch, and other ways and just the importance of that. You know, I mean sex is good for you. It's good for you in many ways. And you can say all those ways better than I can. I mean it's good for the skin. It's good for the lungs. It's good for the bladder is good for the sense of humor. I mean it's good for you. If you're with the right person and, in fact, you know, any touching of the genitals, drives up the dopamine system and can help you feel feelings of intense romantic love for the person, but with orgasm, there's a real flood of oxytocin and vase the president, and those are those brain chemicals are link with feelings of deep attachment to somebody so orgasm is good. And in fact when I asked match in I do this annual study with match singles in America. We do not pull the match members. We pull the American public. So it's a Representative sample of Americans based on the US census and almost seventy percent of women regard, do not regard it as good sex in less. They have an orgasm. I mean, the old days where you're supposed to lie back and think of England are over. Women want to sexual gratification, just as men. Do get confusing, though to have you people think that they can't be with several people because women have an orgasm with them, totally attached. I can't be with anyone else. Well, I don't know. I never thought of that. But, but I do think that it brings you closer to somebody. I mean, that's one of the reasons that people sex is not casual unless you're so drunk that you can't remember, it's not casual things happen. You learn a great deal about a person. Learn not only size shape and and motion. But whether they're kind whether they can listen, whether they can accommodate whether they wanna please, whether they do have a sense of humor whether the cetera et cetera. So you learn a lot between the sheets. And I do think that once you get into bed with somebody, you know, I mean, sex triggers, five of the twelve cranial nerves. I mean you see them. You hear them you smell them, taste them. You feel them. I mean, the, the whole brain becomes activated by the whole experience. And of course, with orgasm is one of the most powerful feelings human animal can have so. Good to have a part of that. You like in bed. And you know, it's not the only part of relationship that you could certainly have just remind couples that, like the touch is important to touching or. Oh, we don't need anymore more. So usually there's one person that says that, but you, do you have to continue to connect to figure out a way to do it. I mean, that's I mean you're a sex therapist, but I would think that I mean, I've always heard from sex, therapists that that's one of the biggest problems when one individual wants more than the right and, you know, I'm not a therapist. But if, if I was with somebody, I would be tempted to say, listen, this is an important part of relationship, if you're not interested, maybe you should try taking some testosterone supplements or understand that this is a meaningful part for this other person, you should try to accommodate and the more sex. You have the more you want the less, you have the less you want. But we forget after time like an orgasm for a while. Right. Right. So now and it's very good for the body the bind. So it's a very now I mean, there's some people who aren't interested in sex, and they bury somebody who's also not terribly interested in sex, and that's fine. Whatever probably not quite as healthy but. Which is fine for them personality types. Now, are you really wanna pull the these four I'm the only one I think everyone, I'm literally I think about now. But I haven't wanted to personality types. Entirely new idea and the business world really likes it, I'm making more and more speeches in business. Because, you know, I mean, how do these different kinds of people innovate? How do they lead? How do you build a team? Same quizzes on your same one for businesses. We figure out because this is not about love this is about personality. And so, for example, when the problems in businesses that people, let's say, you're building team you tend to, to choose to mates who are like yourself because you can understand. Now, if you and I were going to Laos, we might want to have a third person who who gets the airline tickets. Raynham in. We don't want something we don't want to an agenda for every single there. So it's important to build a team with some people that you are not like you know, I mean, for example, one of the things that I am all for hiring women, and for blacks and Asians, and Latinos, in cetera et cetera said, I'm all for cultural diversity. But how about diversity of mind, high putting some people in new team who do not think the way you do. I mean, I've started this new company called neuro color. And we've got a second generation personality questionnaire. And we go into businesses and we train people, and understanding these four styles of thinking, and behaving and how to build a team, how to how you want to be talked to I don't like to be talked. I don't like it. When the testosterone tells me Where'd you get that purse? Sure it is cheap. Get rid of it. I I mean I can do it right. But it's tired from me, I'm trying to Sweden smile. And right. You know, you might need that guy to talk to your sales people. Exactly. You. We're hiring now. I want to scientists. So in my personality in mind, hire you now though, so they can go to your site. It's called neuro coat. It's a company Earl color. The co founder and his name is Dave lab. No, he's very hard to toss thrown. I'm very high estrogen is a little clash their times. But we're both very high dopamine. We need a high serotonin prison. We need the builder and this times that we don't know what to do. And so we will call. We've got another two people in the company who are very high serotonin to end we call them and ask them. What would you do? What do you think about this, because we are not going to see the way, a high serotonin the builders would see it. It's an it's very people around who are who can do the things that you don't do. For example, I was once. In also get them in the right. Job. No. I was once out at visa that credit card company and everybody taking my personality questionnaire. And I could see that there was this one woman took my personality questionnaire. She was the head of the accounting department big big part of visa, and but on my questionnaire, she was all explorer all all high dove mean. And of course in accounting, you're being counter. I mean, it's icy Raton, and it's a very different kind of task. I pulled her aside because I didn't want embarrass her in front of her colleagues, everything I said, tell me, which is more the real you, the you at work, or the, you outside of work. And she said, oh, outside of work, which was my questionnaire showed. And she said, it's a work is very tiring and is because she's having a fitter sale into a role that she doesn't naturally play. She or is she like I'll thank you. I have one I didn't. Look at that people to. Yeah. Kidding yourself. Wrong places that kind of go towards your natural your skills. That would be the leaders of the company to try and find people with a will do their best, send people will do their best and, for example, with innovation. I mean, you are going to think outside the box and come up with a new idea, a better mousetrap. That's what you're going to do. But you want a nice, high serotonin person to create the process, innovative the new process for how it's done. It's gonna be make you impatient. What a high tech guy to build the building. But the and then you're going to high estrogen, which is also you to sell it to explain it to advertise it to cetera et cetera. So just getting people in the right place is very valuable. Glad up an couple and people dating. What about like Myers Briggs and stuff on there percents takes it gets it? But one of the things is very hard to remember. I am very difficult to remember as much remember, explorer, builder really smart director negotiator. So that's it's hard to remember. But also it puts you in buckets, and the bottom line is you can act out of character. I can do here at Tonen. I mean I pay my bills every month. I do get my schedule under control. I at cetera et cetera. But I don't feel like doing it ever ever. And I mean what takes my boyfriend two seconds to go onto the internet to buy an airplane ticket. Oh, day before I make a call. Next cowed by says we're doing now. We're doing it now. I know who I am. No better embracing it. Yeah. So funny and then dating the realizing what's important to you. And then finding he will kind of calm. Fill the second. I had one man that I've hung around with for years. I mean, we're just friends, I probably known him for fifteen years. We have gone to the same restaurant for fifteen years, and he always wants to high serotonin guy, and I thought to myself over these pastors he would never be a lover. I mean he's barely been to Europe. You know. The study and that's truly what your parents, raised you. So interesting. When my book on this came out why him why her my editor for the book called me up and just read the first draft. He said, you know, Helen, I've finally understand my son, and my editor was very high explorer of retaining novelty seeking curious creative spontaneous energetic, but his son was the high serotonin he wanted to stay home, and he was cautious kid he didn't want to go out on all these adventures. That is father wanted to go on. And he said, I love my son, but I never understood him until now. Just got it that way. Hey, who knows if it's because of the way he raised them, or if it's because, oh, it says, oh, I think these high serotonin kid algae. I mean, I've got my badge there you measure their brains. Right. I did. And that's why this is my questionnaire. So unusual. I got all the data from looking at the brain that are to make the question. But then I put two groups of people who had. The question into the brain scanner to prove that what I was measuring with my questionnaire actually a correspondent with what was in the brain. So if I were to put you into my machine, I give you the questionnaire you score very high on my dope. Mass-scale the explorer. And then when I looked at your brain, I'd long a lot of activity in the holdover pathway. I would also see activity in the brain region for empathy because that's estrogen. And with verbal skills because that's estrogen. So I would be able to see your brain and see. Yes. That's why it's different from the Myers. Briggs from all Briggs. Actually is quite right in some ways, but they don't know it. For example. I don't know how much you know about the Myers Briggs. Well, when they're measuring the degree to which you are feeling versus thinking, what the really measuring they don't know it, but they're really measuring the traits of the testosterone versus estrogen system. And when they're the preceding versus judging p j really measuring the traits of the dove main versus the serotonin system, once again they don't know it. But that's what they're doing simplified it that, like, what I did is I got the biology to it. And but then they put you in a bucket, you're either perceiving judging. They got one thing wrong. And in fact, everybody's gotten one thing I think I've never written about this, but I do measure it in my neuro color. I don't think anybody in business or in psychology on Lehman actually understand extroversion versus introversion. I think that Isabel Myers had it right. Of of Myers. Briggs in that is where you get your energy now. I'm an introvert. I get my energy from being alone. But if I go into a party, I'm talkative, I'm bluffing. I can be the life of the party cetera et cetera. And what they do is they confuse introverts with sort of wallflowers and experts with sort of the life of the party, but I think they're two separate scales, the degree to which you get your energy, which is InterVision versus expiration, and a whole second scale, which is outgoing versus reserve. I am an outgoing introvert. This is a whole new thing on my, my brain skinny partner is a reserved extrovert. She asked to have people around that people constantly going in and out of her house is dogs as people that you name, it people. But she's reserved around hateful. That's too simple intercourse, I love being alone. But I'm extrovert but yeah, I need my alone time all the time, but I get energy from people, I think, and Myers Briggs have that wrong. And I think the other thing that they've got wrong is putting you in a bucket because we're all accumbens of all them is the matter of degree. Now my boyfriend is particularly high on the dopamine and the Tatars but he's got some serotonin them Myers Briggs would not pick that up. And that sort of Tonen has been valuable. I mean he, he makes the plans he actually likes it. I keep on apologize, and I'm so sorry. I never get us the hotel room. I never knew it, though. He needs to know that. It it's happening that you place to go looking at me. Very similar that he loves the planning and doing it. So appreciates it. I wanna talk to you about rejection. The most painful, painful experience human can endure. I agree. Talk about that a little bit the phases of rejection and romantic love and getting rejected. So after a put my first group of people into the brain scanner who are happily in love, and that got a lot of press. That's really not very important. What's really important is to find out what happens when you've been rejected in love. That's when people murder, or commit suicide or slip in the clinical, depression, or stock. I mean, if I'm gonna make any contribution on this planet, it's going to be among people who are rejected in love. So we put fifteen people into the scanner, and we found activity and a lot of brain regions among them three brain reasons link with craving, the basic brain region link with addiction. It's an addiction become addicted to right. And certainly also brain region linked with feelings of intense romantic love, and you don't stop loving somebody because they dumped do. In fact, you can love more a brain region link with feelings of deep attachment, of course and a brain region linked with physical pain. Not only the exile that goes along with physical pain, but a brain region, that also becomes active when you have to pain, but you go to the dentist tooth pain's gone week later, you've forgotten it. You don't forget, somebody week after they've dumped to. Ain't go on for months or years. So basically this. Yeah, this. I know you know, when I was writing my book on that why why we love I thought to myself, why did we go through this? Why aren't we just why isn't it easier to break up? Everybody gets and I thought, well, you know, look at what you're losing immunity, losing your daily routines daily habits somebody to make love to laugh with, but you could be losing the children, the dog are the house and economical problems. And where do you go at Christmas, or Pontecorvo wherever, I mean, you know, I mean you great deal and coming, you absolutely can lose friends. You can lose neighbors, you can lose a lot. But what you really losing is a reproductive partner. You've lost your opportunity to send you DNA on with his individual. And if you've already had children with the person, you're losing parent, what if? What if? Earning you still hurts. It always involves. It's. You know, it always it always is so paid. Well, and it is a process, a psychiatrist says this is not my work psychiatrists say that, you know, the first thing is the protests state, just try to win the person back in oh you can try to seduce. You can try insult them. You walk in never see you again. You have a big drama, you walk out and minutes later, you're back to do it again. It's an obsession and you're trying to win the person back you could seduce you can try to make him jealous. You can do a lot of things. And then after a while you just flat out give up. And that's the second stage you moved from protest to resignation. And then you sort of slump onto the bed, and you just lie there and you cry or you drink too much drive too fast, you hole up and watch TV, and after a while that begins to fade and you move into recovery. So it really is a whole pattern. But, you know, men and women do it somewhat differently. Women try to. Negotiate a great deal whereas mental, try to make women jealous or go out and get another relationship almost immediately to try to make the person jealous. So they'll do it somewhat differently, but chasing that men do it like that. But then they feel later, or they just kind of I, I don't know if that's true. Well miniature enough times more likely to kill themselves. When is over the bottom line is they're feeling they're feeling just numbing by going out and dating someone else right away. I saw just as much sorrow in the men that I put into the brain scanner as the women. They don't talk about as much women talk about it too much. I agree. And what they're doing is retraumatize. I mean it's you do want to talk about it to a point, but after a while you need to stop talking about it, because every time you raise the issue again, with friends and family. You're retraumatize in yourself, reliving it at an in that happened to me once with this guy. I mean it was ridiculous constantly leaving. And. And finally, you know, I said to my girlfriend's I I'm not gonna talk about it anymore because I'm just retraumatize so helpful all timed time does heal all wound is true. But would you able to prove that actually these rejected people the longer, you get away from the moment of initial rejection, the less activity? There is a brain region late with feelings of attachment. So we've been able to prove that in the brain time does heal. But if women talk about it too much men often don't talk about enough, so they don't process. And there was this one guy, you sort of build a story that you can, then get rid of. And there was this one guy that left me. I could not figure out why he left I could not figure it out. And I finally said to myself, and I was never going to know because he was gone. So I thought I find said to myself, Helen make it up make up your story. Make up the story of why you left. What went wrong, what you did make it up as so that you can once you get a story? You can throw the story out bury the story that you just think about. To this day. I don't know why. But. I got my story for no either, because that's the thing about the tow me here kind of thing. But make it up. Yeah. But we make of so many stories in our head about things like even on the apps. Get more rejected, or we had a great data and they ghosted. You're never gonna know anyway. Our two hours with somebody new spent ten days. Obsessing about it doesn't matter point just move on. You gotta move move on. Reject the white, so. That's what I would do. I mean I'm not as interest- therapist, but I, but if I was on the internet, and I had a really wonderful date with somebody or two hundred days with somebody, and I thought it was great. And then they said to me, well, call you next week and then they never do, I would think if you really had no idea. I don't know. I mean just off the top of my head. I guess I would say, well, maybe girlfriend came back. Maybe maybe it doesn't have to do with me doesn't have to do all the time. It has to do with you. How could it after one day, two days, anyway? Or does never know. Never know never healthier though. Not to beat yourself up, and go to the negative, exactly. Wired to do exactly people say well love is dead. You can't kill love. It's a brain system it evolved over four million years ago. It's going to be with us as long as we survive as a species formative years from now is like the fear system or the hope system. This basic brain system, we will always love, love eve, major life work out of studying love. It's been so helpful for so many people, including myself. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. For being here guys. Thanks so much for listening to this show. I hope you enjoy my interview and enjoy the podcast. Thank you. Everybody for listening and for supporting the show, thanks to my mazing team. Can Kristen Michelle producer, Jamie. And Michael was it? Good for you. Email me feedback at sex with Emily dot com. So how often has happened to you? You just got done with a sweaty how round sex and clean up. So what do you use? Where do you go as 'specially if it's really messy drippy? I mean you know what happens. Well, that's where fresh she's come in. So my good friends. Lauren Michael in Weston at womb more play. You know them. I've been telling you about their coconut love oil for months because I'm obsessed with it will they created fresh, she's, they're all natural, pre moist towelettes made with organic gradients alver extract, cranberry vanilla water and coconut water. And of course, they're ph balanced free of alcohol parabens dies. And they're hypoallergenic. So you're also gonna love the packaging. I mean freshest. Wife's are individually wrapped in coming little package at look like an old school, cigarette box with the flip top. It's so cool. 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