Episode 35: The DeBeers
Thank you for listening to this podcast. One production available on apple podcasts and podcast. One. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree the first degree. They're supposed to happen in movies, not real life. From her. I got. You know, like that we're five and self defense courses. They tell you don't ignore like if you get that off feeling about someone don't, like you don't have to let them in your life type of thing I could tell something like off about Stacy me wonders if she had like close pardom psychosis, like Andrea Yates. Just as a little bit of a trigger warning for anybody. That is listening. We will be talking about very graphic things that involve newborn children. So if you have a or if you're a little faint of heart or you don't. Right. So we will be talking about crimes against infants. So if that is something that is deeply upsetting. We highly recommend proceed with caution. Hey guys, welcome to the first degree that true crime podcast that you might end up on. My name is Jack Vanik. I'm sitting across from Alexis linkletter and also kind of across from Billy Johnson because we are recording in a new spot in. We feel in fancy. We do really like it here. It's nice stuff in the heart of Hollywood were, we are h house H club, H club, H club, h Clapp, it's like a super cool members only place in I am in. So what pants right around the corner from the capital records building, walk of fame on the blocker in also right around the corner from the frolic room, which is a very famous dive bar. That was also in L A confidential scrape bar. What day is it? Billy. It's national siblings day. You picked that one out of all of them. Yes. Because if you're a religious person of the Judeo Christian, faith, the first ever murder was a siblings murder. When Cain killed Abel. Billy loves the flexes, theology. Major muscle. Studies major. I was not trying to be a pastor anything. But yes, God knows you couldn't be a passive and is also would be a very interesting pastor quite honestly, probably one of the better ones, right? I go to that I go to that church. I would do. It's also encouraging young writer day, which is always nice. And it's national form animals day. And he forgot the best one it is also national sim, cinnamon crystal day Wassall, cross some which I like, but tomorrow, I got flaky pastry myself have you ever seen croissants being made? It is just like it's there, an I haven't watched that when I smoke weed at night. I'm going to Google it on YouTube mentioned on the YouTube machine. Yeah he go smoke weed when you do it now. But tomorrow is national chase darkness with me day. It is audio book comes out tomorrow. Everybody go by that there is a shadow for Lexus in either is not in the audiobook, but I I it isn't just. You know, I will I will actually we'll put it up on social and yeah. So if you like the stories about the Golden State killer about the bear brook murders. There's there's two big chapters about that. And also, if like, like we said, if you want to hear me, talk, and not have me be interrupted by Alexis and Jack for nine hours straight. I believe it's nine hours. Yeah. Three hundred. Oh, shut that takes you nine hours Tam? Wow. Well, it takes us an hour to get through like six pages of town, but that's mostly because we go on, really insane tangents. There's no tangents in the in the book grow, there should be the audio siemian Alexis like yelling at you. But yes, no, so yeah, you can get it at. Audible dot com slash chase darkness or at Amazon. The only two places that you can get. Oh, everybody go by it and. We're going to move on from that, and to. So, you know, we've been we've been twenty around at the idea of doing like true crime question. And then last week we talked about, I think it was we talked about Billy's beer carrying habits. It'd be his beard color of the day. Yeah. Got a lot of sun that week. But, you know, we've been talking us three about some of the reviews that we've been getting on itunes and mostly the shit talk. We've actually discovered that the reviews about me or the most music there. The funniest I mean listen, I'm used to like people talking shit on me. It's like it kind of just comes with the territory. People have been like trolling me, those sixteen years old. So it's not that funny anymore. But for a Lexus, it's a news new and nobody talks shit on Billy so that Billy's the golden child. He gets no criticism. I get shit talked him. Yeah. Not not on its own. It's all in the dark. Sir. But for this podcast, you the golden child. We get it. But for some reason, Jack Jack's Nin comments will be like Jack suck but mine will be like a paragraph long. Why? Mostly grieving habits. Okay, which have improved, but I'm happy to dry. You guys should be happy that Alexis his anxiety has calmed down a bit. I'm maybe she's using the right concoction of medication. Maybe I'm drinking the right amount because she's drinking threatening. I'm looking ahead enough there, I don't have any I'm not I'm not under pressure. But either way it will take your criticisms in stride. So here's one of the criticisms of the week and honestly, four stars that they've given us, which is nice says love true crime. Love the podcast. But I'm just wondering if Alexis is sucking on candy or something twenty thing. The sucking noises. She makes are making it hard to listen. I've been been listening for a couple of days but I just had to turn off because of the noises. Otherwise, I love everything else. Thank you, Gucci boy, two thousand six. Could you bring a hero? I don't suck on candy because I'm really neurotic about my teeth. Yes. I don't know what that noise is most have been from the if he's binging. That's. The beginning. Yeah. But I'm sure I do really annoying shit to everyone. I know. So I don't think you're in don't doubt. I'm that I'm not. I, I believe I'm annoying, as one of your best friends, I do not find you annoying at all. And I know you later than anybody. You really do. Billy. No. Billy just tunes us out. Are you here? Are you with us? I I'm with you. Yeah. I hear you power through till the new equipment phase. It was around episode fifteen. Yeah. I promise he gets better. I'm involving every day. I'm striving to do better every day. Yes. Take deeper problem. I will make noise for my whole life. So I don't even a human after all for sure. And we're talking about death and breath is life. So just remember that. Yeah, that could be worse one hundred percent. Right. All right. Let's jump into our case we're going to jump into the case. And this case actually takes us to January two thousand four and bizarre case started unraveling in a matter of hours after a man named Bob white Gart called to report that a child in his presence was not responsive. And this is in the general area of Rochester, New York. We'll get more localized as it applies, but child in his presence was not responsive was what the call was. So the police in EMT rushed to the suburban Ken dice neighborhood, which is his specific neighborhood in Rochester. And on the way my sumptious, they're probably thinking, maybe we can resuscitate this child. Maybe this is a situation. We can make better running. That's why EMT's are generally dispatched. But when they arrived, they noticed that. It was odd when they arrived at the home, they notice that portions of the house had been charred. And it looked like it had kind of been on fire. So they moved through the house, and they were eventually led to the basement and there, Bob showed them, this thirty gallon of plastic storage bin that had been filled with concrete around. What appeared to be the body of a newborn? And the child's evidently, was his infant, niece wrapped in a garbage bag. Entombed in concrete filled sort of been, and Bob Wichert later said to the media, I remember holding it up in the plastic. It looked like something out of a horror movie. I cannot imagine discovering that I mean, that is truly griffis something out of a horror movie, right? Like, I, I don't know if I've ever heard of that anything like that thing like that. So dr. Michael Foot arrived at the scene, and he pronounced the concrete and to MD baby dead at ten twenty p. I'm on the scene. The police learn that the home that they were called to is actually uninhabited due to the fact that it was partially burned down the people that had lived there before relocated to a nearby town of Farmington, Bob guard explained that he had come to make this awful discovery. And he actually had been asked by sister. Megan MacLeod to take a closer look at the contents of the garbage bag that she had found days earlier in the former home of their sisters Stacey beer. And she was living there with her husband, Brian, and mega McLeod again, Bob sister. She makes the initial discovery and she takes a hammer to the concrete and funds the bag with what appeared to be covered like a cloth covering. And in what she at first thought was paint, but she later learns it was blood, and that's the, that's the thing with blood, particularly when it's older blood, it's going to be darker. So to look like, you know, the red blitz kind of. Kind of Brown black Brown, so Meghan, meet this made the, this initial search because she intentionally went poking around after getting suspicious of Stacy. So Stacy hip been pregnant the previous year, but no baby came out, like, where's the baby? She said she was pregnant, I everything was going on. And then no baby. Be mature materialized in never. I don't think Shieffer said anything not pretended like she wasn't pregnant, right? Right. Hi. My name is Jason. I'm twenty nine I live in a big New York, so I'm after the beer in the early two thousand when my family we've moved to the neighborhood what it's called. It's thick. Themes dough haven because all of the streets are named after like fear like buckskin white tail antler. Yeah. I was like thirteen is the early two thousand when I met them, I knew their two children and other specs for their privacy. I'm not gonna stay there. I met one day when only when I was out walking my dog named brulee. I just happened to pass by the house and say, hi. My name is Jade, and type in the neighborhood where he assaults interacted. It was mostly the kid. The parents were. Were other at work all the time or kept on fell while doing guard for, but, you know, people would say, Hello it. You sound Hello. And people like you pet their dog. If it was from. All right. So let's talk about the couple that we've that is kind of at the center of this, their names are Stacey and Brian de beer as they're married. Couple Stacy's thirty years old and Brian is thirty two years old. And they had been married since nineteen ninety-five, and they have two daughters aged six and eight in the pair had been together, since they were twenty two and twenty three Brian graduated from a local hanalei high school in one thousand nine hundred and then he worked, various jobs, and he eventually was doing just contracting work and became an independent contractor. And Brian devere had essentially kept a relatively low profile before the police were called to his house that day. So. Yeah. During the summertime when I was thirteen when school wasn't in session, and no circulars or sports or anything to worry about we would hang out in each other's yard basically, like a whole. Mess of a twenty this would be, for example, the house, during Halloween time were a bunch of people from the area would come to because it was a huge development. So a lot of kids and stuff. So as far as the debris house outside, there were like a bunch of kids toys, in, like squirt, guns and stuff like that. There's nothing worse than getting older and feeling the signs of aging affecting. You are you experiencing a loss of energy trouble sleeping, sagging skin or deepening lines and wrinkles. You probably are because we're all just getting older every day. 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So Bryan kept a pretty low profile, but his name was super notorious to the family of a seventy two year old woman who was killed in two thousand one when he rear ended the truck that she was riding on canvas lake road. He struck her from behind, and it caused the car to hit a tree and flip over the crash claimed Patricia Northrup and critically injured. Her husband, Donald Brian was convicted of traffic infractions such as speeding and following too closely. And he served fifteen days in jail, but Stacey had zero scarfs on her record. So as far as Stacy goes, I interacted more with the husband because he was outside more. She stands side, the house there. And she was also the type of parent, like if someone's dog keyed on the lawn she would make you rent both par- the lawn off with the host of the grass. When you know go bad, and you could just tell that something was off about her. They I'm five eight. She's like unless they five six. She had long blond hair vakman, no glasses run to work contact. She's looked put together yet floppy at the same time like she would wear dress clothes, but there'd be like they all over it. The Bryans of your teeny was polar them me. He has short hair clean, shaven face in overweight, and he'd be the typical sad where like four teams Turks than jeans, or like khaki short acres something like that. Brian was more to hang out with the kids than he seems like a cool guy and I didn't get any bad five from him. But again, I could tell something like off about Stacy. From her. I got, you know, like that we're five and self defense courses. They tell you don't ignore like if you get that off feeling about someone don't, like you don't have to let them in your life type of thing, but she wasn't really a pleasant person though. So needless to say an investigation into these, deceased infants starts right away, and they go straight to the home, where the De Beers live now to go and talk to them about this, this discover that they had in the basement of their former home when they get there, they immediately want to search this house to, and they come through every room and right, when they think they've they've, they've gone through everything. One of the officers makes an unbelievable discovery in the homes garden shed, and it's the remains of a second child in a pale. Also in tuned in concrete. When I came home from school one day, there were hop cars everywhere. And then later that day my friend. Her name of Brenna called me to read the news. And it was like a holy crap. What just happened when I saw the news when I first heard it, I heard that they had found he babies who encasing cement, and that the two one, they had were getting taken how in the, the Brian and Stacy were arrested as far as reacting to the news, my mom great Dell then I freaked out that is something you don't expect from. I guess anywhere you love. You don't expect we are craft to go down like that. And, you know, and I feel bad for the two kids, I out to know over the summer. I was worried that something would happen to the two kids at some point, or maybe I didn't get the hint that they were being abused or something. I worried about that every day for over a decade. So upon this discovery the neighborhood in which the devere is lived was completely shut down. Now, the police had found two bodies of two infants, they had no idea if more would be discovered, or uncovered in what really they were dealing with. And they essentially at this point knocked on every door to learn what they could about this couple. And also at this point, it's when Stacy and Bryan were taken into the police station and separated their two daughters were put in the care of family members. So an autopsy revealed that each of these infants were determined to be full term newborns. There was no record of their births, which meant that they were self delivered at home. Both were little girls. The baby that was found in the second. Concrete thing how to crumpled up piece of tissue stuffed in her mouth. All right. So, so awful. So the parents of the two dead infants are in the interrogation room at the police. And here's what they learn. Stacey beer, eventually confesses to have having had eight pregnancies. And remember, she has the two living children's. Yeah. Kids were six eight and then these two that were just the discovered. And then now four more. Yes. So there's three pregnancies that ended in abortion, and she gave up one, baby for adoption, and then the two deceased newborns that they just discovered. And Stacey tearfully admits that she had put one of the children up for adoption, because she and her husband couldn't afford to raise two children. And then she describes in grim detail giving birth to the two slain children, one in March of ninety eight and the other on may tenth which was mother's day five days later, five years later, excuse me, in two thousand three another thing I want to mention is that when Stacy is arrested. She is pregnant. Oh my God again. Yes. How old is she thirty? So that was that was nine that would have been the ninth pregnancy. Jesus. Wow. It's fascinating. And we're going to get there. So. Stacey essentially said that both of the children. Had been breathing and making sounds before she wrapped their little bodies in cloth, and plastic in they died when the first one died, she explained that back then she had told a social worker that she was very overwhelmed with raising two toddlers, and panicked, when she was about to give birth again. She ended up delivering that baby herself on the couch. And when asked why she did not put the others up for adoption after she had put one up for adoption. She said she didn't know and she didn't know what she was thinking and the infant girl. The first one was born alive. But again, she said she wrapped it up and put it in the basement, because she was scared. And at that point, when her husband came home, Brian. She told him what happened, but the baby was dead. And then she said, you know, Brian worried I would go to jail, and we thought we should have the baby. I got. So she's continuing according to a statement while they're to alive children's slept upstairs, Stacey, and Brian, put some concrete in the bottom of large white bucket, put the baby in and covered the baby in concrete. And she said that I never meant from my life, TB so out of control. I just wanted the best life possible for her to older children. I'm sorry. It seems so trivial. I'm just so tired of everything. But I'm so glad that it's all out in the open. I never meant to hurt Brian in the kids. I don't wanna lengthy drawn out trial just want to plead guilty and end. So she is really just, he's talking about I don't wanna hurt Brian in the kids, meaning here to told her to older children that are still alive. And she's not talking about these other two children that she murdered. So Brian has asked about all of this, and he corroborates what, what Stacey story. And he tells police that, quote, we decided to place the baby in a five gallon, bucket, and pour concrete over the baby. It was my idea to do this. He said they kept the bucket in the basement, hoping to give the infant a permanent burial someday. And then that's also something to where it's just like you got this baby in a bucket. How do you not think about that every day? It's just sitting in your basement. And like, oh, so nice that you want to give it a proper burial, a great. I think what we haven't mentioned yet is that also one of the babies both of the babies apparently were delivered at this house that burned down. They only brought one right over bright. Because one was discovered in the basement of, of the burnt house. So in the other one was in the shed ranks. So the only brought one with them, and it's just so fascinating like the things your brain is doing to make these decisions. Yeah. Like why one and not the other in like maybe they will will. I think this is this is coming up, but we might as well just get into it. Now is that apparently Brian? Knew about the first one and he helps. But the second one I guess she said was stillborn but it's a lie. She killed that you thought it was stillborn. Right. So maybe in her head. She's like, I'll leave that one that, that represents, like me. And my husband are in together on the on. He knows the truth, and, and I'm gonna psychologist so don't crucify me in this. But I mean, just common sense, kind of right? It makes me feel that way where it's like if your partners in on it with you, you bring it, it's not as much of a. Taboo, theme to have in that house, even though it's horrific it's could not be more because because if you have somebody with you there, then that becomes your new normal. Right. That's you. That's your normal and the other person knows it as well. And our normal is we've murdered our child and have them in the basement, which is sick somewhere Smith we're in it were team on like these kind of cases always blow my mind where it's how you find somebody else, like it's crazy enough for one person to be capable of doing something like this. And how do you find somebody to go along with what you are doing? Well, I sort of gets in this situation only, I'm not saying it's okay, but I'm saying like Ryan comes home. Stacy had this, baby. It's dead. It's downstairs, she's hysterical. He's like, I can't have my wife go to prison like no one knows his baby exists. Like let's say we lost it and get rid of this. Problem right now. And it's he doesn't think it's ever gonna come. He doesn't think he's ever going to happen again. It Lord knows what she told him. You know, and I don't know I can kind of see it in this because it's not really a real person to him, yet, where it's like they're real their adult children have personalities and names. And I think I think I don't know. I've never been pregnant, I don't know. I don't know what this is like, Billy, maybe you can win I've ever been pregnant either here. I am a father. Yeah. No. I think it's just. It's, it's the, the ideas that, that he was that he was trying to rationalize this for himself. I think was saying who's gonna take care of the, you know, like this is a mother. Maybe she was a good mother or whatever. But remember in who's gonna take care of it. This eight year olds if they don't find if they actually went and did a barrel. We're gonna talking about this case, the fact that they the only reason we're talking about this case, because they found them in this house right in this burnt-out house. So they did it twice. Yeah. The only reason why we're talking about that, if he actually did what they said he was going to do, and actually take the bodies and actually give them the what he what he said was a proper burial. We would not be talking about this. It would be done, and they would have gotten away with it. We talk about some scary stuff here on the first degree. But when it comes to something as important as your family's safety, you need real protection with one of our favorite sponsors. ADT real protection means not having to be your own twenty four seven monitoring expert because ADT has the best in class monitoring professionals there for you at times when you need it, the absolute most real protection means having a safe and smart home. Custom fit your lifestyle with everything from video doorbells. Surveillance cameras that stream to your phone smart locks in lights and carbon monoxide and smoke. 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Alexa, isn't the only one with breaking news, make sure to hang around at the end of this podcast for the latest breaking headlines on the AP news minute, if you like the first degree you're going to love showman's with Kevin mckell and Jenna, hush quits on podcast, one on the lady gang network during the former gleese ours and best friends is they interview other dynamic duo about the wild ups and downs of balancing a relationship on set. Download new episodes of showman's with Kevin mckell Josh quits every week on podcast one. most of these cases, go undiscovered. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Most of these, I mean this happens all the time. But that's what I'm wondering. It's like why why what do you think like the reasoning is for them to have just kept them? I don't know. No, I don't think I think, personally, I like, do you think it's they don't want to acknowledge it any further to, to move it or it's like as it looks some sizing thing, she's not a sociopathic think she's ill sick. Yeah, I think you have a lot of mixed. Feelings is so you just kind of our paralyzed and use of it there and ignore it in I was reading about this kind of crime. It's like Neo Natal side. It's when babies are killed in the first twenty four hours, one of the most glaring characteristics that these offenders share is passivity, your passive, your pass about the pregnancy, you or you deny it. You never wanna like confront what's happening. So you kind of just ignore it, until it actually happens. Ending you north. You see it with younger offenders, who, who commit these, these acts calling them offenders is so hard, because a lot of the MARTINI, Gers, what confused and scared. So I don't even want to say that there's a really famous case where she a girl gave birth at her school in the went back to prom during prom, she didn't even look pregnant. It's not real. That was in there in total denial in that. They don't even believe that babies alive. They're like, oh, it was a miscarriage, but they really believe I can see. I again it's like you don't understand it. But it's like I can see that for a way younger person. But somebody that has already delivered. That's the thing. Will you know what these children you already delivered? And you have a six year old and an eight year old at the time. But yet you've seen what those things turn into. They're not just some like intangible alive. Nothingness. Absolutely. And. We'll get into we, we do learn later, a little bit more about Stacy and her frame of mind, but to reset in recap, where we were so Stacy's interrogation and she described the police before the circumstances surrounding the first birth in the first baby. So she did move onto the second baby who was born as Billy said five years later on mother's day. And she said that she delivered this baby alone in the living room swabbed its mouth with a tissue in unused kiss kitchen. Scissors to cut the umbilical cord in, according to handwritten notes of the investigator, who conducted the interview, Stacy said the baby was alive, I panicked, I wrapped the baby in a cloth and plastic bag and took it out to the shed. Days later with her kids in the car, and the infant's body in the trunk Stacy allegedly brought. You know, water and two bags of concrete, and she dropped the kids off at her mother's. And then drove from location. She said, I took the baby out of the trunk put concrete in the bottom of the rubbermaid tote, put the baby in the middle and fill the rest with concrete. Put the top on the tote and sat down to gather myself, and, you know, eventually this tote ended up in their shed. So this is the point where Brian in Stacy's stories start to differ. Brian tells police that he got a different story in relation to the second baby. He said, she told me that they rushed her to strong Memorial Hospital, where they deliver the baby, the baby was still the baby was stillborn and the cord was wrapped around her neck. He said he believed his wife, and when she told him, the baby was born still could not be revived. So she, then that's means she did the same. She did that alone with the read. Yeah. So let's talk about how these crimes are classified. So this particular act is known as Neo natives side, and it's as Alexis was talking about, it's when a murder is committed within an infant's first twenty four hours of life, and these types of crimes, begged that question in a country, where abortion is legal and most states have safe haven laws permitting, the no questions asked drop-offs of unwanted babies. Why would a sane mother ever resort to killing her newborn child, especially? As we were saying a mother that had had already delivered birth and was raising two other ends. I'd put children up for adoption like knows. Literally everything, right? Any possibility? Absolutely. So back to what was Billy was saying about Neo Natal side, and extremely conservative estimate puts the incidence of new native side in the US at one fifty to three hundred annually. And as we said earlier, there's no way to know how many times this happens. Yeah. Especially I mean, most new Nate aside. Commissioners are under twenty under twenty five like college high school, and they don't show. And it's his fascinating thing in their studies about it. Where if they don't believe they're pregnant, they actually don't really show really. Yeah. So these girls really psychological. It's all of it, it's like I feel like you lean into it, when, you know you're pregnant, and you're embracing and you eat more new, eat more, you're taking your needle Natal vitamins, you're doing all this stuff. Yeah, they're not doing any of that those things then you know there's a reason why you're taking the falcons. Yeah. They're probably dress. To conceal it like you a lot of these in lot of these cases. No one had any idea. They weren't showing this one girl that I referenced in the prom dress was wearing a prom dress did not look pregnant. So there's no really way to know how many happening year. But researchers for decades have studied mothers who kill their newborn babies and in the process of found sufficient similarities between cases that's you know, this behavior is kind of considered a syndrome and experts say that harming the child is not something these mothers anticipate doing once they're thrust into the situation of having to handle alive childbirth on their own. They panic they act impulsively. They want to pretend it didn't happen. Right. And I think a lot of them like I said, we'll be like this isn't this isn't real this baby's dead. This, this isn't a baby. This is God knows what, what their brain does when they're freaking out to that degree. So this is actually a book by Cheryl Meyer and Michelle Barumun called mothers who kill children, and the book notes, quote, neonatal. Seidel behavior is often influenced by relatively intangible factors, such as emotional ice. Isolation and perceived lack of resources, then by stereotypical indicators like race or financial standing, which is interesting because you see that a lot in suicide as well. A nineteen ninety-five report on psychiatric law from the National Center for biotechnology information. Reported that Natal homicide rates were lower in the ten years following Roe v. Wade, and that Neo Natal side is proportionately higher in rural areas where abortion may not be socially acceptable or readily available. That's not a shocker shocker at all. So as far as Neo Natal, had goes, it's considerably more commonly committed by mothers than fathers, according to the same study that Billy referenced, I'm not gonna keep repeating that. But between nineteen seventy six thousand nine hundred seven. It was a term in that mothers were responsible for those deaths of children during infancy while fathers remark likely to be responsible for murders of children, eight or older. And I thought that was very that is really interesting. Yeah. So ninety percent of new NATO ninety percent of neonatal Seidel mothers are twenty five years of age or younger which actually puts Stacey in this very odd ten percent, category, and less than twenty percent or married, less than thirty percent are seen as psychotic or depressed. And interestingly or not so much, not maybe not surprisingly, the US ranks first in homicide of children under age four zero rights, forty five percent of all child murders occur in the first twenty four hours of life. Yes. And criminal psychologist, Philip j Resnick is actually the man who coined the term Neo Natal side, and he conducted a massive study on philosophical, which is the murder of children over. Hall. As far as her having so many kids, not stopping. I'm glad she felt one up for adoption, I suppose, but it's still very messed up situation. And I just like there's so many people, I know they can't even have one kid, Harvey wonders if. Yep. Like postpartum psychosis like Andrew gate. I don't think she was born evil. I think she was born good. But in high school of, we're talking about this, and I had a musical director at the time. She's like, yeah, I use Stacey in high school, and we all knew her parents viewing. So I think that shaped that partially shaped her into who she was was being abused then not getting proper therapy, or dealing with it as far as like having compassion for her. I chew it's been abused. But I seek therapy. And, you know, I stayed out trouble and shit. So a one little I understand how she became the way she became but I don't have empathy or compassion for a person that perpetuates the cycle. We don't know what kind of abuse Stacey suffered, and we tried very hard to get that information. She pled guilty. So there wasn't a trial. So we don't know that didn't come to the surface, but abuses interesting when you're talking about this situation because Stacey is in that kind of outlier demographic of women committing, neonatal, generally, it's younger, you know, she's thirty she has a partner usually they don't have partners. Yeah. Usually, they don't have kids and other kids. Exactly. And so it's her situation is not normal are as. The circumstances surrounding, yes happening. And I'm sure abuse has something to do with it. Do I mean, you gotta think because she had the option. She knew what the options were cheese or on shit. She had gone through putting a child up for adoption. She had an abortion. She had an abortion. He had the children, she's literally done everything that you could do, and you have to think that maybe and I'm, I'm not anything way of giving her an an excuse. But were those processes incredibly traumatic for her that she decided to do this instead, super less traumatic? I mean that's the. Traumatic thing. No. But speculating on. This is fascinating and everybody listening. We're not psychologists. This is just our commonsense speaking where we're trying to hurt us three normal humans wondering what the right in trying to understand. I mean Billy has kids Jack and I don't but we understand. Life awale. Yeah. We're like, yeah. Enough to know. Assume we would know what, what to do in this situation. I don't know. But I don't know what kind of abuse she suffered. So it's hard to comment further. Yeah. But presumably it had something to do with it because it's related enough. Yeah, of course. As plummeted Ben abuse. You know, I say going if there if you're a situation, you can't just go out and take it out on the world. You gotta deal with your shape. It takes time. But it gets better. Not okay. You go in her other people and lashed out at other people. Every car comes with its share of stories. I have a nice little ding in my bumper from one. This guy hit me at a stop sign and decided to drive away. I also have coffee stains all over the floor of my car from when I tried to eat breakfast while driving. It's never a good idea. And we'll you can't put a price tag on your story is now with truecar you can at least find out what your car is worth when it's time to sell or trade it in, you've heard me talking about truecar before they're amazing. All you have to do is go to truecar simply enter your license plate number, and watch, how your car's details pop up, then you answer a few questions. Do you have navigation and a moon roof watch as they bump up your value? 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So it didn't look like either of them. We're fighting this. They're super-most remorseful, and like taking full responsibility, right? So Stacy was held without bail Brian's. Bail was set at seventy five K and it convicted Stacey was facing up to twenty five years in prison. And this is a sidebar, but during all of these criminal proceedings. Brian actually files for divorce from Stacey. Stacey is eventually sentenced to thirty years to life in prison for killing their newborn less than a year earlier. And for killing the second baby girl in ninety eight Brian is convicted of hindering prosecution for entombing one of the two babies in concrete and he was sentenced to the maximum and the maximum was just two and a third to seven years in prison. And Stacy is now serving out her sentence of thirty years to life in prison. So after these sentences were handed down Stacy's family talk to the media, and they essentially believe that Brian had a lot more to do with all this than he claimed and was actually blamed for so quote, it's just a bad deal. We knew he had more to do with it with, there was only so much they can do said, Bob, y guard, who is Stacy's brother, and he at this point has been a strange from Stacey like after the legal proceedings had gone through. I mean they kind of lost touch because I think it was probably a horrifying situation. And Bob continued, he said he is put a hurting on a lot of people and their to their children six and eight year old children ended up with Stacy's mother and were placed in their care ever since the day they had been arrested so sad. No. Oh my God. Like I can't even imagine. So after brands conviction he ended up. In prison, and he got denied parole twice both in two thousand six and in two thousand eight and in the ruling board members who reviewed his case called his actions heartless, cowardly and heinous, and he was then released from prison on September sixteenth two thousand eight and so his release was not met with joy, but he gets out in two thousand eight after serving two-thirds of his sentence in the state law. Mandates that prisoners be released at that point two thirds if they've behaved while they've been locked up even if the board of parole recommends otherwise. So within a day of his release, he has to go to the New York state division of paroles, Rochester, office, you remains under their close. Watch until January sixteenth, two thousand eleven which is the date, that is prison sentence would have timed out had he served all seven years. As far as having a weird feeling about her feeling right about that. My gut feeling is typically. Right. And I'm glad I know not to ignore it. It's I feel really bad for the children in this case, though, 'cause I don't know what their friends found out or what was to them growing up. I just hope you know they were able to get in therapy. And, you know, like we're played with decent family members and stuff. And I actually just hope that mom never hit paroled. One day he did. I think like Bundy. Sociopath and burp. Her husband help, I think it was. He didn't outta love. But also at the same time with the pick. No. Because again, I am the type of person that would have gone to the cop, and I would have left that relationship and taking the kids, because that's me. Yeah. That is a dick mood do. I mean, nothing describes that better as a dick move than a dick move. It's the Dickey's move that ever was and like dick moves put describing up thing prescribing. Stacey as a sociopath, relating her to Bundy, and then just saying for Brian to hell. That's a dick move. It's an understatement. It's an understatement for sure. But listen Jaden is being really nice. Yes. Ryan was his favourite of the two he, he did hang out with him more than with Stacy. And I think Stacy's just not. Well, really like, you know, she wanted she cried, and she said, I want to plead guilty and, you know, that's not, that's not like a sociopath sociopath thing. You're right. You know, I think I mean, I think at the time again, it's this, this idea of like passive. I totally understand what that study was talking about. It's like you are so scared to. Front. What's happening that you just and I think it is a little wellness. Yeah. It's like putting blinders on him pretending. It doesn't exist. Exactly. But you know, could she? Could she do a horrific heinous like strangling of a person? I'm not sure I think it's just, you know, it's for her. It was passive. It's like it's an infinite can care for self. If I put it over here, it will die. What's all your to kill an infant than it would be to kill less violence? But yeah, but an adult adult or, or a child, that's the only acts. Yeah, there's less connection from the craziest thing about this case is the fact that she had kids. I've heard those stories like the girl at the prom. I've heard the stories of teenagers that go to the bathroom during school, teenage athletes, have an baby, the baby. In the toilet put on the trash, can you hear those stories? This was a woman who had already delivered birth to two healthy children, had also done. The two things that are the option the options, which is a, you know, she had an abortion, and she also gave a child up for adoption. It's just there's something there, man. I mean it's strange. Well, it's like do we want to have that little discussion about if like how you're talking about that? She may be addicted to being pregnant. I mean, I think just we were talking about the abuse. And I was I referenced the Diane downs case. And if you guys don't remember, I had to watch a twenty twenty on it that just aired to remind myself, but she essentially was convicted of murdering her two children because she was dating a man who didn't want children. And then she as soon as she did this. She was like being questioned. She went, and she got pregnant again and it's like she just killed her two children and know the evidence was glaring, and it's like, I don't know, if they see it as like a form of control and I'm not talking about space, Stacey specifically in the situation. Yeah. But some women are low, I think it's a high like they love you tension of being pregnant, they, it's a part of them, it's sort of like a narcissistic thing. What we see this and this story as we restoring to tell it could've veered off into she, you know, she was pregnant, and then no baby materialized. And then it could've veered off into one of those stories where she goes. And she kills a woman. That was pregnant and actually takes her baby which seen before this, obviously, it was completely different because she actually was pregnant. Yeah. She. Yeah. It's fascinating. And I, I would love to muse about it, but I just don't want to be chastised for not being a professional but I do think I have an understanding of like. You know, it's part of you, and if you've been abused and you have this horrible relationship with yourself. You don't want these babies, but you're totally you're looking for love. Like I, I could see how. Psychoanalyst may see it. You had a horrible upbringing hypothetically, you keep having babies because you want people to love you. When they materialize itself, loathing. And you're like get it. It's part of me. I don't want it. I see now is not part of me anymore. Right. And I it's, it's this in this is again, I don't want to hear any DM's about how I don't know what I'm talking about admittedly. I don't, but I know they're speculating I admittedly, I do feel like I'm onto something which are you? Yeah. As a medical professional. Yes. It makes sense to me. I mean I someone who's been a health therapy. I know what they would say. I, I think I'm close. So, so. You guys. I know we talked a lot of disturbing things. But the truth of the matter is, is that these are real issues that women grapple with guess, unwanted pregnancy. It's scary to be young and pregnant and not know what to do or old. I mean, people find themselves in situations all the time where you never know what really is going on. Yeah. And I think the biggest takeaway from this is there are options, and I mean, we are looking at the safe haven laws because we don't know that much about it, personally, I haven't had to deal with it personally. But apparently all fifty states have places that you can drop off your baby. No questions asked. So that is good to know. And of course, there are many other options as well. So if you find yourself in this type of situation, think offer Google, and hopefully there is a better option. Yeah. And I know every state is dealing with their different sort of logistics. Yeah. And we have compassion for these situations come up because. No two are alike. There's no guidebook for this kind of thing. It's, it's scary and terrible. But we will say handling it the way Stacy handled it as probably not the move might be the worst one handle it, right? And the way Brian to. And said it was a dick move. Deck move. God. It. All right. Well, thank you. A Jaden for being our first connect first degree connection today. We really appreciate you and it was a very interesting story to tell, and I think that there is a lot of takeaways from it. If you are connected to in murder, or other stranger than fiction story. Please write us at the first degree on Instagram slide into our DM's, Alex's, linkletter, Appalachians and. Attrac-. Vanik. Or you can right? Into our submissions page or Email us. Hello for Ripon cast dot com. Emails pop up in my actually, there's something that's really weird with that E mail. That's on my phone that I only get notifications for Email. I don't get any and you read them before me, and, like, hey, Lexus. I didn't hear back from you. I'm like bitch, and Email me back, and it's because you check it first because it's the only thing that pops up as a notification might leaving work on that because I need, I need the notification not you doesn't incredible story. Do. And I never know about. Like I was Ted bundy's. Airing the phone waiting for response and jacquards at first, so I don't get us. All right. Well, you know, that's what you have to do, like a double tap, like DM, Lexus. Well, right. Okay. Well until then keep your friends close but not that. Happy young writer. That's right. It was a cinnamon croissant day happy, cinnamon, pastry day Crisan croissant. Chris. So Trump and trade. I'm Tim Maguire, the AP newsman is the Trump administration was draws terrorists and steel aluminum from Canada Mexico, both countries say, they'll lift retaliatory tariffs on US goods clearing a hurdle for a new trade agreement between the three nations. President Trump says the end of the terrace is good for all three countries, spin, charging us extremely high tariffs as much as two hundred eighty five percent or more for our agricultural products. The Missouri house passes a ban on abortions at eight weeks of pregnancy. Governor Mike Parsons, I've been pretty clear where I've been from day, one on right to live several other states have also passed so called fetal heartbeat laws. Today's action follows Alabama's passage of a Bill making performing an abortion of felony in nearly all cases Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin has defied a subpoena from House Ways and means committee, chairman. Demanding six years of President Trump's tax returns committee, chairman Richard Neal says they're likely to go to court next week. I'm Tim Maguire.