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ADAPTATION w/ Nadia Osman & Dr. Kenneth Chapman (Postdoctoral Research Associate at The University of Arizona)

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go in food bill is great heals your episodes did the movie right we have to fight hi everybody welcome to bad signs hinds i'm ethan edinburgh and today we're talking about an oscar winning film two thousand two's adaptation and i have two wonderful guests first off let me introduce the person and who is here in the studio it is the co host of the why do you know that podcast is a writer performer nadia osman hi how's it going nadia great thanks traffic me thanks for being here you have your delightful refreshing water enjoy coffee this morning i did thank god thank god i will otherwise it would be kind of a nightmare to see i am not a morning person i'm trying to be a morning person if i don't have the coffee i become one of those people that's the those laser or woodcut at UCF marshall sales rack that are like dow attack i am i am that person just walking around is have closed yes yes yes yeah well hopefully that's not the case with our other guests who's joining us from arizona a remote scientists guest he is the postdoctoral research associate at university of arizona it's kenneth chapman thanks round me thanks for i was gonna say being here but thanks for joining us virtually actually yeah yeah and you prefer to be called kenny right so i should not call you kenneth kenny's great kenneth is like my official name that goes on paperwork and stuff doc but kenny is what most folks call me i'm going to call it and say kenna's as pretentious as the film adaptation so that's it's actually a pretty good place to start common critique of the film is that it's like yeah very pretentious and i think that it's weird because charlie kaufman's character character in the movie charlie kaufman who wrote the screenplay based on the book the orchid thief and he's played by nicholas cage and his brother is played by nicholas cage whose donald if you haven't seen the movie it's going to be complicated as hell for me to try to explain it to you so you really just have to watch it i think but he seems like hates pretentious stuff like he says a few times the movie don't say industry don't say pitch don't call me my friends stuff like that which i thought was like an anti hi pretentious attitude see i think those are just words that get used and it feels like so much of what he's trying to make in this film is super pretentious this is idea that like even though he's having this internal crisis in himself and how's he going to rate this thing so much i feel like what was happening is watching one man man slowly unravel because everything he thought was true when he was twenty two is no longer true when he's in his late thirties something like that yeah yeah and so much of that i think comes down to how he's trying to open the film what he's trying to say about it what is it thematically and i go your are your fake twin brother and this makes sense just make a fucking movie yeah can i curse you can fucking curse that's totally fine before no it's all good i i think that he kinda came around don't know towards the end it seems like he really did adopt his brother's philosophy yeah by the end he seems to to be more on board with like yeah just make a movie so like by the third act i was like okay this is five but those first two acts he is such an insufferable character all i kept reading reading my notes is just why no i hate him what's happening i feel bad for him i was like almost crying at the you know his awkward moments with his dates dates i just felt i don't know no he just needs therapy he's a good therapist he just needs to work his shit out with them self help books he is he is a man in who's getting in the way of himself is a self-sabotager and he's self aware enough to know this and yet does nothing to change it and that is to me the worst the person yup okay i could see that i wasn't seeing it that way when i saw the film but now that you're saying it it does make a lot of sense to me i okay well let me ask you this at least did you enjoy the film yes by the end i had come around to it but the first act i just kept writing like he at some point about minute twelve which is typically if you're writing the screenplay about the time when you would sort of come up with your cat litter statement he says charlie nicholas cage one says to donald nicholas cage to writing writing is a journey into the unknown and i just wrote no it's not it with like fourteen escalation works after it because it really isn't to me writing is very much about you're thinking gene through the thing that you want to say so much of this whole movie would be solved if he just fucking outlined if he wrote his thoughts down and went okay let's just outlined hi this which i i never see until the end when he's finally beat it out and i'm like what are you doing you sold stuff before what did you just sell did you sell thoughts lots did you sell a dire his movies are pretty crazy so you know we all have different process and i wouldn't be shocked to hear that charlie kaufman's processes like off the rails where he just rambles into a tape recorder that's true and it's so crazy because this film is so much about him and his his actual like so much of him is inserted into do this to the degree that it's really difficult to sort of separate well how much of this is you over exaggerating how much of this is almost too much of you yeah yeah that makes sense did you with this your first time watching adaptation it is it was long on the list of movies that i should have watched a while ago i've got a big big big long the google doc that's many many pages long of the things i'm either supposed to see or i should say at some point on it some reason people put on the back burner i think i'm not sure why i think because it's crazy and it's not an easy film to describe the log line and it's basically charlie kaufman the eccentric screenwriter and the eccentric screenwriters fake twin brother both played right nicholas cage are trying to write different screenplays at the same time and the story is all about the orchid thief and adapting it none of that really comes together till the end of the film goes places yes yes and it's a commentary on that the fact that like you see films that don't go anywhere it doesn't really scream like i gotta watch that tonight that sounds great that's not really a date flick no the guy you're dating is like just talks about graduating from tisch all all the time maybe recalibrate your relationship okay so kenny what about you is this your first time watching it and what did you think of the movie it was not on my first time i think i i saw this probably ran when it first came out i was like an angsty teenager where young college student and i thought it was very deep and stuff of yeah well it's interesting so i love the movie i've seen it a bunch of times it gets a lot of complaints not only because nicholas cage for because it is kinda pretentious but but that's kind of the point like you're supposed to not like charlie and charlie's whole story is that nothing really happens and spoiler the second the last third of the movie is all made up fiction because he failed that writing an adaptation of the book so the power everyone thinks they get the good is actually the part when he sort of breaks down and gives in to just writing you know writing the screenplay with a bunch of tropes and murder scenes drugs in saxon stuff yes very true through i also love the movie i gotta say i saw it a long time ago i don't know if it was when he came out but i do know it was just like a bit ago and and yeah i just really got a kick out of the whole well like meta -ness of the movie and i normally nicholas cage is like a huge surprise to me in this movie because normally it's like okay it's nicholas another like action movie kind of writ you know normal nicholas cage i guess so i was really happy to see him playing these like really weird roles but chris cooper won an oscar for this movie and i think rightfully so he was incredible meryl streep incredible but but yeah i'm glad to hear that you that you also dug it i i really i don't know i i had a great time watching this movie over again and was almost at the point of tears again i really felt bad for him now i don't know now i feel like maybe not as right and he just needs to like faces shit get a therapist cast great i i mean naked can do no wrong truly man's catalog is all over the map but is phenomenal meryl's phenomenal christopher person even the the bit parts of everybody else planet young maggie jilin how gillan how young young judy greer who is like criminally underutilized in this film so many people oh young wrote i i wrote young coach taylor interest no it's it was ron livingston so then i wrote young office space young office space is in this movie everybody has these little bit parts that really contribute to the world that i enjoyed quite a bit so everybody was bringing their a game but it does just make nikolic charlie buddy just therapy man their health of care you deserve thing street yourself nice god damn that's a nice message to come away with i think in this movie which i didn't so that's that's good to conclude would it like that okay before we get into the million questions that i have both about the movie and about just your entire background kenny i did have a little game i wanted to play called the orchid brief your brain your nothing your brief into the debris so i have a few quick like trivia factoid questions about or kids i don't know how much either of you know about orchids but i'll have the answer first and then kenny maybe you'll know maybe you won't how a depth of orchid knowledge getting beyond bugs my knowledge does way down so so classes okay great so more than likely a bunch of wrong answers await us i can guarantee it on my end okay great well or maybe you're a good gisar and you have the premonitions maybe profit okay first question how many seeds can be found in a single orchid seed pod thirty ready to say i mean several thousand i'll say wait a single pod in a single orchid seat part three hundred the answer is up to three million wow off like super tiny any like dust particles so i thought that was fascinating and here's how many years can an orchid live for oh i'm going to say i feel like orchids they feel like they're a flower with longevity let's go with like twenty five years twenty ninety five years from now the husband yeah i think they're going to live a long time they kind of tend to have a slow life history where a lot of markets i know only like flour once every five years ten years something like that so yeah i say i'll take fifty years is up to a hundred years oh oh lead you cut them open trees with rings i don't know kenny i you might be able to see some some aging patterns but you you won't see the the same the same patterns that you see in hardwood trees get slowly over time maybe build up layers that you'd the detect i really wish that humans were closer to plants in that you could not detect the aging process of very very clearly yeah that would be cool how old i have no okay what popular ice cream flavor is a type of orchid oh okay popular pop like really popular like the keystone yeah okay meant mint can stephen i'm a vanilla vanilla greg yeah okay that makes more sense deserve deserve myself out and z. later nadia great to have you vanilla it's extracted directed from yeah from vanilla plan plenty of folio which is a species of working in my head it's always think vanilla bean and i guess like even though i know the beans come in sort of get freshman knowing you're scraping it outcomes leafy to be thing yes in my head it was like that from the orchid kenny is that what we're all thinking of yeah that's the pod so with your first question how many scenes can be a top in a pod when you scrape out of nila you get these little oh black dots sometimes it didn't like french vanilla disease is there a big difference between french vanilla and regular vanilla american middle i think it's more of an or maybe it has an actual mio material instead of just like the oil whatever madagascar gascogne vanilla is assume from that region and hence the name to that way those native to mexico but it's grown a lie and i guess car it's native to mexico i know nothing so do they have the best vanilla well there's a lot of controversy so if you're great if you're coming in from the culinary perspective people think that madagascar vanilla is kind of the primo because there there's more regulation about pesticides and things like that but also using vanilla in general is pretty not that great for the environment because orchids tend to grow in pre special environments so we know that like in madagascar there's a lot of natural habitat that since been kind of torn down for the sake of vanilla so there's an argument for going flavoring no yeah we shouldn't have vanilla and less it's artificial vanilla well so artificial vanilla vanilla vanilla knin or vanilla lynn is the chemical name and it's the meaning it's chemically exactly the same as the main flavor i've been on there are some other flavors in real vanilla some subtle things that you might not get but otherwise chemically they're exactly the same except is that with the chemically main manila you don't have to spend all these years harvesting these pods and what if we just stick to i don't know like strawberry what have we convince young longer call narrowly speaking like hey guys vanilla nelson great you might wanna structure of fruit yeah i like the the idea of of uh promoting that it is the fake manila yeah we do not have natural vanilla here we will not carry fun ella okay okay we're onto something it's not real but it is more fun it safer take note food companies hire me to make you beyond me you cut it done so much better there's so many puns just waiting there i'm sure yeah come on just angry i'm so pissed okay how along have orchids existed on the planet earth oh gosh i'm going to say sense ooh what dinosaur periods during which is give me the years i mean if you want a name period that's cool criteria conscious stations i'll say was that sixty thousand years that those ads are also probably rob somebody out there is a dino expert and they're just like screaming in their cards good how you idiot also sixty thousand years sixty thousand years three older so they're flowering plants right so we can think about when flowering plants came out and would firing fans really into is getting a other things to help pollinate them so flowers are kind of these traps to to get abud to go in and spread con around so that all started we have fossil evidence of pollen on bugs from like one hundred sixty million years ago oh it sorry i meant to add a one in front of mind and add more zeros did yeah that's what i thought okay we're on the same page yeah that's pretty much what i had a hundred million years they don't know exactly when but they said it's one of the oldest flowers that we know about british cool that's crazy and i just i feel dumb and dumber that's kind of the point of the pod you know we we learn more with every minute i hope and then i wanted to talk about they spoke briefly briefly in the movie about how what what you're saying to piggyback on that kenny is that like the orchids look like insects a lot of them so the insects will come and and make love to them as they in the movie which i wanted to ask you about the validity of that comparison but also i was looking up or kids and there's orchid look like animals there's an orchid that looks like an owl a an organ that looks like a monkey and it's pretty accurate like they look like all the animal a lot so if you haven't seen that i don't know look it up on google it's pretty crazy yeah so there are a couple of things going on there i mean some of it is the orchids sometimes accidentally just look like an animal to us humans when they're not actually asleep they haven't involved to try and do that but a lot of other cases they are actually have actually adapted to look like the that's their host and we call the sensory sensory bias so animal has a sensory bias if you can kind of hijacked supply jacker sensory systems and make them more attracted to to some other q. now there's a a classic example in australia there's some beadle that finds mates by looking for a lesson colors at insist color orange and this needle and ends up tries to mate with light everything in the world that is that color orange construction signs and construction cones and all these things also go after so that's an example of sensory bias where humans are issues in this thing and it's making the the animals flowers have been doing this for millions of years so they are evolving to be really attractive to their host to get them to flower so it so it is true that there are you know there's a lot of organs that look very much like like a b especially a nice female be that's that would make a good meat so they're really trying to hijack that sensory system that would be as evolved in order to for the the flower has started take advantage of it and use it for its own advantage ah wow and but you're saying that the fact that it looks like these animals these bigger animals is just coincidence or just some sort of weird random ization yeah pretty much there's a lot of cool really interesting patterns and extra structures that all these orchids hat and and i guess that's just also like a matter of probability because there's so how many species of orchids right i think they said in the movie there's over twenty thousand or twenty five thousand species of orchids they're super diverse group and also say that humans have have have really evolved to recognize patterns visual patterns and also to recognize faces so you can see we see jesus on toast right we see faces and with the animals and all these things so it's something that we're predisposed to do because of our ablution ever legitimate question and then a fait question a legitimate question is i do fair ramones have anything to do with sensory bias because it smell right yeah yeah so spare really important they're important for people all and a lot of animals and i'm sure they've been hijacked a lot of my research is is looking at animal cooperation and conflict wet and how that these systems of that animals have evolved get messed let so how animals may be artists social group how did cheaters come in and take advantage of that social the group so i'm sure there's example i can't think about how sure there must be examples of some animals that have evolved ramones one that comes to mind and is there some moths that the one of the sexist sends out a fairmont signal and there are some predators that will pick up on that fairmount to to get a a quick meal instead of you know being made that they would be able to find that's not good for them the fake question is so basically i guess it's it's it's real but you'll see these so orchids make themselves look like other animals essentially specifically typically insects with the sole intention of making that insect horny as hell so that that insect is trying to mate with the flour and thus pollinate donates yeah that's exactly right that's crazy questions and it does not the only way that orchids attract their paul meters so one is via by the sensory bias to get them attractive eight they also offer a reward a food reward so that's what actress right the only reason that far making nectar is to convince an insect to come to it and and to move its polera so could we say that orchids are late maybe not the hornets flower we're but like top five hornets plants somewhere top ten lauren jenner all hours flowers overall the mentioned the movie that orchid comes from orcas which is latin for test testicle that they're all about and really flowers ours are really all about sex and making that happen is that why we give flower like that's like the classic like first date you can date show show up with flowers maybe okay i think it's also because we think of aphrodisiacs as like things that either look genitals or like going going way back in human history or supposed- like you know you eat oysters and suddenly you will feel a certain way that kind of thing chocolate which is really just like what lettuce arizona's valve are releasing serotonin when you eat certain foods but specifically flowers seemed to be just just not just even symbols of hornets but they are horny themselves compared to like other animals that feel like yeah maybe maybe like they need to sometimes sometimes some are more than others and some are just like you know like a panda bears like well i'll get around around when i feel like it seemed like in any hurry to propagate their species flowers are like we'll talk specifically in your professional opinion yeah i would say from i think that's i mean for a lot of animals that's the name of the game but when you're an animal amel that or i should say because we're talking about plants that doesn't live as long so there's a lot of plants that are annual so they really have to reproduce every year otherwise otherwise yeah they die a virgin nobody wants that and then oriented signed differences some markets can go to the movie can liberal on time but they they need to coordinate when they all flour so that they can share gimmes sperm and eggs right on so they can share pollen so they have these like really rare flowering events will flower at the same time but in order to orchestrate that sometimes end up lowering quite rarely sweet that they all got on the the same page together and we're all good we're all go fuck at the same time it's like when you have kids around the same time with your friends yeah they can go to school together yeah exactly nice ace on nature when the number my is coral reefs all different quarrels get a signal when it's a full noon that i think the the longest night of the year the full moon where they all vaughn and produce a sperm that then ken matchup in the water column that's more ordaining knitting socks is an important thing in a lot of areas biology i feel like for a coral reef though that just seems like a lot more organizational work like there's one reef that has to get nominated when when specific point of coral that's just like oh okay it's my okay fine all right i'll take this it's like being PTA president just they it to organize every saying against for amount of the wire right so if if what they humans tried to make it would be really really wouldn't workout got well unless a lot of people were dated one day we shutdown humanity day were all fucking so we need you to get on board dot com tom dumber holidays might as well be whole reefs thousands of individual coral that on the same night we'll we'll spawn and only and so just to because if someone's listening to this podcast in the future just explained what a coral reef is because i don't think they're going to need our career oh sorry about that all right we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back to mauve and move it support for today's show comes from mova globes globes mova globes turn on all on their own with or without a base in any setting with ambient lighting there's no batteries there's no sloppy cords to detract from your enjoyment women instead hidden magnets provide the movement which i thought was the main thing magnets but i think it's light too i think that's why they mentioned the ambient lighting as neither here nor there it doesn't matter that i've been telling and people who ask me how's that glow moving on your desk and i say magnets it's all magnets that is besides the point anyways with over forty different designs including world maps outer outer space and famous artworks there's something for everyone it's a great gift it's peaceful it's meditative 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feel more relaxed i i feel more patient i feel smarter more productive tell me about your globe experience right now we're taking callers no we're not live on the air the recording okay isolated over here we go okay so i'm glad you mentioned the ghost orchid actually because that's like the main flower in this film it's like the super rare thing that they john roach i think was his name is trying to like poke coach he's trying to steal ghost orchids because they're like super rare so does that ring true or they actually like sought after that way yeah i mean goes organs sir they're protected i don't really know what the current status of their population is i think they're kind of okay i know there are there are problems with with pollination because a flower so rarely i think some some people that are saying they're worried about the effects of climate change and how that might alter through their their flowering so right now they'll only file or maybe once every ten years or so says he's rare events and you have to kind of have this perfect storm of all these or flowering and then also having a bunch of pollinators out that will share this pollen around between the different orchids it it's kinda touchy thing right so you can see for that reason you know coming coming in collecting a couple of thousand would really have long term impacts on a population yeah and i i don't know how big of an issue poaching is in particular i know it still happens and poaching internationally for plants it's still a problem okay so there yeah there's endangered plant lists just like there are animals and and rules and security to make sure people don't do it yeah okay so stop eating vanilla and don't buy rare plants i guess is that good so far i mean if the rare plant is raised in captivity you know if you know where it came from that's great but yeah i would be wary just no no where you're coming from in that goes for all kinds of living living things that you you might consume is that like an exciting story that we could make into a movie still that like a people are hunting for rare plants or flowers because they're worth millions of dollars and then they sell them on the black market i mean i'm not a movie producer but yeah i mean if you look at it there's a lot of other animals that using animals which the organisms that are high profile so like the pangolin recently got a lot of media attention for for poaching rhinos certainly there's sort of we called mega fi these charismatic species so but a lot of people are still poaching a lot of other organisms their spiders that are are endangered in size listed and certainly at work it's actually if i'm memory serves and preacher all species of orchids are sites listed which means that international trade rate is controlled okay well you mentioned florida i'm from florida and you said you lived there for a time or studied or research or something from i'm there oh you're from floor what part of florida sebastian florida it's like an hour and a half south of orlando pretty sure i've driven through there i've offended florida a little bit of an orlando boynton beach miami and the keys okay so yeah we have some floridian expertise here on the podcast on on one side of the panhandle you asked me about i guess clearwater i don't know anything and you don't need to tell you what i think so yeah ken i gotta be honest i went to the first thing i looked up about you is your website and the first thing i saw you have the you have a video that plays of these terrifying huge spiders yeah i don't like this and they're battling and it's like immediately scary oh no no no no thank you yes yeah so first of all if you are into that kind of shape and dot com john with you exactly second question is are you obsessed with spiders i and y obsessed with spiders i have to private this with the things that you see fighting on my website are not actually spiders so those don't exist giant not only do you have giant bugs on a video but you're tricking us yeah so there's a lot there called hold wit spiders but narrowly in their own order so they're not actually a type of spider they're in their own group but yet they're really big on those individuals i was filming they have a leg span of seventy centimeters which is pretty huge yeah so when i say lakes van it's because komo spiders walk on eight legs these guys block on six legs and instead use their two front legs like feelers so they're called antenna form legs because is there like antenna cruel so they're pretty much blind and they have these long legs that they put out that they can they can smell at them and tastes they can sense vibrations do all these communication things and that's how they kind of got living and so yeah they they also looked terrify but just say they're not venomous adamus hurt you there really like delicate and fragile i the last students i take out in the field and they all start really freaked out i am but by the end they're all kind of fall in love with them a little bit and they're coming to you yet known i think that would take me a while so and they're not spiders they're called whip spider so i guess my question is also like do they whip stuff and then what are they if not spiders so the the wizard from those long front legs got the whip name from okay and it looks like a whip yeah so there there are several different orders of arachnids like arachnophobia is a fear of spiders in their relatives so minors are group's scorpions or another if you ever see camel spiders or sun spiders they're another group we have these whip spiders daddy long legs another group so they're actually a lot actually ticks are another group ticks mites they're also type of arachnids so there are non spider arachnoid there so it's in iraq and it's called a whip spider and it's not a spider right great yeah hans is confusing to say you know nature's amazing but every thing that you just named in that in those groups is my nightmare yeah i i i'm so sorry i'm so sorry to break this news to you can i don't i is hedge for our region stuff is i think people really excited about how scary and creepy these things are i think they're creepy tail i kind of like him it makes resource exciting that you you work with an animal that is some so much predictable or you know maybe has some venom these whip spiders but but other species i mean it's it's certainly certainly not boring and people love horror movies see i see this is part of it is i'm no i'm becoming more of a horrid off but for a long time i was just like why i would i seek out being scared no thank you scary things in the world i want things that are calm and nice and i think to be scared of like weird fake stuff is google and i'm down with that but you know because what you just said there's so much real scary stuff is like i don't i don't wanna think about that like all these dang spiders fighters yeah you're just you're just post videos of victor i'm sure for educational purposes but in my mind it's like why are you tried to deliberately scare me why are you attacking nadia kenny answer that kenny try and scare you but i think a lot of oh my spider colleagues are they would want to convince the public to not be afraid and to you know like spiders and cuddle with them instead i am sort of on the dark side of iraq -nology and i'm saying no isn't it cool that they're weird in his net cool at their kozara and can be gross and can be scary you know i think that's what base really interesting despite do you and your fellow spider colleagues have like a a fun name beyond just spider colleagues like is there some sort of like you know a group like you got the avengers what are you what is your adventures NJIT name well we maybe we could come up with one so is the american society i don't know how to not not cool so lame nerd squad spider squad i don't know that bad it's a starting point yeah we'll get somewhere i've had i've had a view spider experts insect experts on the show kenny and i always end up asking this question so i might as well ask you and now you can weigh in please when you see spider in your home okay your bedroom i don't know the kitchen do you because you work with them in such let them live live and say like oh this is my friend i am cool with this thing do you try really hard to like trap it and release it into the wild or is it instinct kill mode yes so for me i think trapping out is a nice thing to do i probably wouldn't even phase me i would just kind of let it i a lot providers at least where i am that UCF doors are spiders that are normally associate with people some waste only really live indoors with people oh sorry i let them do their thing nadia oh i'm fighting to kill mode because i know that they do do good i know that they're here for a reason there spider said eat mosquitoes correct yeah that's a huge issue is like if we kill the spiders and the mosquitoes continued to flourish in the mosquitoes are basically two spread disease and be an annoyance so i know that i need to trap them really i think what happens is they go into instant freight so it's not the flight and it's not a fight but it's just curling up and being like who can i call the help me get the spider out of my house and it also depends on the spider because i know some spiders are not venomous or not meant to harm for me they're just there to chill and hang out on any of the respect that and help them find their way just out of my purview and then occasionally there will be a spider spider or bugger i'm just like i don't know what you are i don't know how you got it here and i need you out navajo yeah i get i get pretty instantaneously scared as well and do whatever i can't get get it out however i will say i saw for the first time in my life a mosquito get trapped in a spider's web and then eaten in like a half a second by hi this spider and it was one of the coolest things i'd ever seen i was hyped up sports thing just one straight up you know what i'm talking about kenny does that do you do you get thrilled thrilled sometimes they loved it there ecosystem goosy lies they do a lot for us they're saving us a lot of money on us who you know putting out west pesticides things like that we thing uncalled integrated pest management where you can collect a bunch of spires release them out into a agricultural area of having to put out a bunch of chemicals so yeah they're they're helping us out for sure so there's some direct benefits but i think the real reason you appreciate it just because they're cool you know karadzic i'll keep trying on that one but i don't know kenny i mean cool but more frightening than cool for me maybe that's why they're maybe did you say you spend some time watching their behavior and watch you know eat we had more experiences where we were getting into spider world instead the spiders coming into our world you know maybe we would see him a little bit different life i mean that's a good point seeing it in action like do its thing i was fascinated i thought that was like the the closest i've come to being a spider expert yeah my fear of bugs does not necessarily come from seeing them in the wild or in their natural habitats it really comes from you're in my space bitch i need you out now yeah it's intrusion of you you know there's a lack of control happening in my own home that freaks me out it has very little to do with the actual bug yeah we got to be more like kenny and get out to these tropical rainforests and check out these spiders i'm sure we're both just down to do well i hear the amazon's nice right now sorry dark turns in this podcast look out guys okay so i had a couple of things that this movie just i don't know sparked my interest in so one thing there's this really funny any scene were there in the van and meryl streep is asking chris cooper's character about just dropping stuff that he loves because she's trying to like look for a passion that's like her jermaine drive in the movie her passion is to be passionate about something and he's super passionate about orchids and so she's asking him like but what about these other passions that you've had didn't you love fish or something that he gets into a story about fish and he's like i was obsessed with fish i would go deep diving the ocean i love the ocean and then one morning i woke up and i said fuck fish and now now i never went to the ocean again i'm just over it and so i was just curious because it made me think about my own life if you guys have had a passion before that you were just all in on and you know either as a kid or teenage years then just one day decided like nope i'm done with this now onto the next thing i i off meryl's whole arc of like i want to be passionate about anything i'm just again i'm like curl get yourself to therapy clearly you're suppressing oppressing something so much i think what we actually like i mean i bet i'm going to wage a gas here that kenny's love of insects comes from a very young time like when he was a little little little kid he got really into this shit and was like spiders are cool and then he followed that throughout his adulthood adulthood and thus became scientists cities today but i look at maryland i'm like gee surely either something happened something like very dark happened for you to just like shutdown eddie memories of anything passionate or you're just the most boring person alive like you have no pasha nothing like you're just stopping yourself like little oh yes she seems to be just like caught up in this weird elite is a job i don't know where a brighter color try try writing for differ magazine company new york or go to the go to the hamptons anything that gets you out of your right lane jump into this very strange field of orchid hunting at orchid drugs which i also wanted to ask about like what the hell is that are there other orchid drugs yeah so kenny answer we both if you ever dropped something a passion of yours that you were just like i'm done with this now and we're gonna get these orca drugs okay so hashemi's now that i've just like you know sort of cold turkey meryl don't be american so don't be america and maybe john laroche's main point is that it doesn't matter what you're passionate about is just finding somebody you can be passionate about it and what it is less important john rochon is kind of saying and why he says fuck fish is it it's not that he loved best is that he loved being obsessed with fish what was your other question the other question was orchid drugs bro yeah so where can we snort some powdered orchid kelly green cocaine was was working drug steph was not re-offend right kind of the point of the movie is is that the protagonist was kind of forced to to make up stories to make his movies exciting but there are flowers we can snort right well they're flowers have certainly provided a medicines that's for sure i mean poppies come to mind right what's your experience with that my streets poppies i wrote it but there are a lot ton of other drugs there are a lot of drugs that come out of the amazon that were still discovering all the time okay an off-the-record which ones are you experiment you gotta get it before the damn thing burns down you gotta get in there kenny take the trip trip of your life before jody percent of the world's oxygen just evaporates yeah and tell us which wants to do because i don't want to do the wrong drugs and then you know be tripping for four four years sounds like a good project for a student out there i'm just imagining the what student that's like no this we'll work i can make this a thesis i can spend seven years just being really fucking yeah and so you never like we're into a goth the the clothes and music and then decided like oh no i'm not a kid anymore i don't think i had like a big i don't know i guess i would probably went through some we're faces like that big thing for a while and then words that's absolutely accurate pokemon hoping uh-huh oh that's a good point mongo okay great then there was a writer's block so of huge part of the film is him suffering from writer's block he can't can't he doesn't know how to make the movie doesn't know how to write it out and so i wanted to know if you know if you had writer's block nadia ever and how do you deal with it and kenny i don't know if there's like science blocker walker research blocks or something but but i just wanted your both of your takes a perfect writer i'm just kidding now i think i've had it definitely had blocked but i think really what it is that i think the idea of writer's block is very romanticized and the notion of it is again a great way to sort of self sabotage tauch if you really think about it procrastination is essentially we procrastinate because we're afraid of dying because the minute we actually set forth and do a thing we have to to face our fear whether that's a fear of failure whether it's a fear of acceptance of fear of achievement whatever that thing is so you put off stuff because you don't want to face that fear just yet so i feel like when i've had i'm gonna put it in quotes writer's block it's really more just this long-term procrastinating where it's not so much oh i can't solve this thing it's that either for whatever reason i don't have the mental or physical energy to face that thing in the back of my head that charlie are nick cage one i should say really you hear his veto or as the film and you hear him just being like i'm fat stupid you but i'm bald i'm a mess and i think that's a that's many people it's a very a relatable identifiable things they hear that voice in your head telling you not to do things because society and your peers and your family and all these people that put those voices in your head when you're really little they start to come out when you're an adult trying to do a creative endeavor so i really say that like as far as writer's block goes i think i've got there's been times where i've gone maybe a few weeks or months without picking up something i've have definitely had moments where i go i know that whatever that thing i'm working on isn't ready yet and i don't know that i can fix it this second which which is like another thing that's driving me nuts about the film that i was watching charlie just like i'm like go take a shower go do a vacation anything like you need to get out of your comfort zone not that a shower is out of your comfort but like you need to do just walk the dog like so many people if they say like how do you break you know how do you how do you solve a story or whatever it's like just do anything else in like your brain will naturally start to giving you're giving your brain a break from staring at the page will give yourself the opportunity community to like let it come through and filter it and then you go there it is yeah yeah i love that that's just i think a great classic remedy for being stuck and problem solving is just take your focus away from the problem he had to go to new york and then the minute he goes to new york that's when he starts solving things and i'm like you should have just taken a trip to the desert is an hour away you know you wanna take a trip you always talk about it he has to go to santa barbara to go to that or confessed that he keeps trying to bring women too and i'm like look i get that though i get that it's a horny plant but also like you don't need to be horny on your work expedition just go take yourself to see like the mission go hi it's like a nice little john right away from santa barbara just get put yourself in a different situation because it does does force your brain to problem solve when you're not in that or just like give yourself a break why was he always thinking about work he's just that's the kind of guy he is probably a subdued passive dude got caught down a little bit i also love ohi by the way great oh hi tourism board is gonna love this that's a good just to take take a break go to ohio it's like nobody touched it since like nineteen eighteen what's this money from the ohio tourism board i'll just put that on my chest we'll edit at at that part out so they don't know that we're getting paid and kenny what about you how do you solve when you're stuck yeah i mean i think we all have writers blocker curb you know what we're gonna use it a lot i think all points you guys are are spot on you're you're doing these projects is research don't work out some of them do and you really need to write that up and make it public public so it's a common phrase that research really doesn't exist unless it's disseminated at knowing can read about it you know it's like tree fell in the woods so you can do that and then we do this thing called peer review so i write up this this research i have and i wanna submitted to a journal so i sent it to the journal they look at it if they think it's good enough if they send it out to anonymous other scientists who then essentially read it and territory shreds and trying to poke holes in it and find everything that's wrong i'm going to revise it and if they like it and they don't reject you eventually gets published so from you can expect like a year or two like is people spend many years from submission to getting published so regarding writer's block getting those responses back especially a you know some people are really kind of polite and nice and have good comments other people just like you know a rip your science apart that can be pretty daunting so i think a big challenge especially for younger folks in science is to kind of maintain that self-motivation kinda have it within you to keep the persistent even if even if you're down in the dumps about your work i can't imagine having to send off script and then having to wait a full year ear and then a bunch of people have come back and ripped it apart that is excruciating so sorry yeah he's gotta be sure right it makes science it also prevents junk science from being published usually but yeah it as far as having this is a career there are there are better parts jolly thing will thank god that at least once the science is published that becomes legislation immediately ah right there's no red tape or loopholes or people that have to vote depending on if it's an election year it's just like oh the scientific community has all aw decided on this they've gone through peer review and so now that's the law that's how it works great so on that note people i should check out your podcast nadia why do you know that tell us about the podcast yeah check out my podcast why do you know that i co host steve schlage also very funny i hi we basically want to know why you know so much about an incredibly specific topics so we interview all walks of life about something that they really really are into not just obsessed with but like as hyper-specific as we can possibly get whether that isn't offend a person a cultural movement et cetera great okay that sounds fun and it's available wherever you get your podcast site imagine exactly you can follow us on instagram why do you know that pod and twitter at why do you know pod because twitter is weird with its characters and we kinda messed it up and you can also email us at why do you know that pottage email dot com if you've got questions comments concerns certain complaints etcetera great what if people wanna follow us specifically you can follow me on twitter and instagram at ms nadia osmond NADA oh SM an great ms naughty osmond thank you for joining me and kenny should people know about your research publications should they take your classes at you of a do people call it you obey as yuck nurse so i'm i'm a i'm a post sake USA USA so it's a short term research position and moving moving on hopefully to professorship at a year it's hugh if you have any questions or if you want to give me a job yet can achieve dot com works my l. and twitter and other social media stuff is on their great and people can check out that sweet sweet i buy repressed it and then i just three i haven't even seen it yet but i have an image in my head of what it is it's bad i mean bad good like the michael jackson says bed yeah which that's that's a whole nother dark territory could go down all right anyways thank you both for joining me and that's it and if any other questions you have a question i kenny a personal question what's your favorite horny flower kimmy my favorite flower humanity yeah they're all just so damn horny all right well yeah thank you both later bye bye that signs is hosted and produced by me ethan edinburgh associate producers emily feld our editor is lucas bolinger and the executive chris cooper producer is brett kushner follows on instagram at ed science show that's at bet science show or feel free to send us an email that's secret dot com that's bad science at secret dot com let us know what you think about the show any movies we you should do in the future i always appreciate your emails and of course leave us i tunes review that let other people hear about this show and i'll see you

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