SOB #449 Scary Stories of Cryptoween Live Special
Hey Folks Adam Levine here on today's episode of speaking of Bitcoin you'll hear our live two hour Halloween special, which we recorded yesterday in costume on Andrea says, Youtube Channel. If you'd like to watch the video version, you'll find the direct link in the show notes and this episode just a heads up is uncensored and uncut. So here few not safe for work words at particularly heated moments you've been warned. We everyone had a safe and happy Halloween without further ado I'll hand the Mike off to injurious or Darkwa as he prefers to be called at this time of year. Tags. Have Been Asleep for twelve years I last Phila- sleep on October thirty first two, thousand and eight. Jeeves. How am I investment is going did anything interesting happen. Bitcoin. Moose. Hey everyone. Welcome to this Saturday special livestream. It's Halloween in the united. States. and. If you didn't know the through prominently freaking out right now, going what the Hell is going on and why is. That well, this is a special halloween. Halloween session, and for this Special Halloween session I've completely changed my hairline and I put on the Cape Otherwise. I come to you exactly as I normally am. Very, good. But for this special Halloween today, we have three fantastic guests for those of you who don't know I have been a co host on the original let stock bitcoin show since two thousand, thirteen with my wonderful co host. Adam. Lean. Stephanie, Murphy and Jonathan Head. Hello everyone. Injuries. Thanks. Ravenous Oh. It's so much fun to be here. Why don't you take us away Adam I'm going to say hello and the Chow while you're doing that. Okay sounds good. Hey, folks on today's episode of speaking of Bitcoin, we'll be celebrating Halloween, and the twelfth anniversary of the release of the Bitcoin White Paper will share some stories from bitcoins past the long ago of twelve years ago in some cases, we'll talk about the crazy things that he used to have to do to even use bitcoin hard lessons that many of us learned about technology. In personal responsibility along the way, we'll talk about shining examples but also horrible warnings will discuss products narratives that didn't survive extended contact with legal or even behavioral realities and wrap it all up with an extended Q. and A. Session where will answer questions from our live audience. That's you folks with all of that said, I'd like to introduce the hosts speaking of Bitcoin. Who will each tell us a little bit about our Halloween? Costumes Stephanie Murphy did her First Bitcoin Transaction and twenty twelve. She's a voiceover artist talk show host and former research biochemist hey stephanie. Adam Happy Halloween. alouine. Well I chose to you dress up as a deer because I live in the woods and I like it that way. Well. That's very good looking our Jonathan. Jonathan Mohan is a community builder played a key role in the evolution of New York's vibrant bitcoin seen a founding member of the theory team CEO of famous and fun fact is so smart because he literally won't stop listening to audio books, three times, speed, Jonathan what are you're listening to right now? Good Day Sir oh. Nothing redeeming good sci-fi war. Litter. Figure America hasn't started a war in a while. So I might as well start one in my head. Okay and your sign says, the fork is Ni-. What's going on here? Well, I'm from the future from the year twenty, one, forty, one when the last block has been mind and I've been sent back in time to tell everyone that you must embrace the forks you don't the Bitcoin will die in the year twenty one forty and I'm here to say that there are only two people in this world those against forks and those with the fork, you must embrace the fork because the forecast. The world does are allergic to forks because they. Address the silvering message for us all today and of course, for those of you watching the livestream, you know Andreas m aunts and operas author teacher and the man who turned his iconic airline into a leading educational brand in. CRYPTO Andreas. Thank you very much for setting this up. Thank you. I've been waiting for show like this for centuries. was going to say. You didn't wear a costume today now I didn't feel like I should dress up for Halloween. So instead I wore one of my iconic shirts not Turkey is not your coins which in itself is a horror story many have lived. And will certainly talk about as we get into today's show some of you may be asking who are you, and I'm glad you asked be. I'm an entrepreneur journalist, and for the last year, I've been building a new podcast network as an editor at Coin Desk. I'm also the coolest wizard on this call today. So. So. Thanks to all of you for watching the livestream and listening to the subsequent podcast version and a happy. Halloween to all. So kicking things off I'd like to just jump right in a travel back to the very early days the days before multi sig before segue and even hierarchical deterministic wallets whenever those things are there. So we're so used to them. Now back to the days when using bitcoin meant running a full node because there wasn't any other way to do it, and in this murky past, there were many casualties as we introduce our first horrific concept, the Wallet Dot Dat. Andreas I'd like you to start us off with an explanation of what this horrific creation was and what we all suffered through using it. Yes. So the woman dot dat is the first wallet that was created in the. BITCOIN qt, or bitcoin core clients before it was colds bitcoin core. And I don't know actually if wallet thought that was the first in fact, I think it was And it was an implementation of a wallet on top of a database platform called Berkeley DB. The past, quite a few problems with it especially with synchronization and backup, and to make things worse the way the swallowed was initialized. The was with a key management mechanism called just a bunch of keys or Jae Bok which basically meant the wallet would generate a hundred keys completely from random. So no seed node deterministic. Hierarchical deterministic quality or anything like that. Those things into exists it would just pick one hundred random numbers and make keys. So and every time you did a new transaction. It would see if it run out of keys yet, and if it did, it would make some new keys out of random numbers which meant that if you didn't come up and something happened to your computer. You'd lose the latest keys so you had to regularly back it up. But you couldn't do that with the software open because the database was in an unstable configuration and could get corrupted. So you have to shutdown the software every now, and then it was just a mess. You also had to download the entire blockchain onto your hard drive in sometimes I remember running space. Yeah, the wall adapt was interesting insofar as it was like a first implementation of this idea that we've come to really appreciate which has gotten a lot safer as time has gone on. But in that sort of early periods, sort of the thing that you really wanted to avoid was using too many addresses because you would blow past the limit, and then if you then tried to recover your wallet and you didn't have like. A very recent copy of this one file that you had to I slept backups and stuff like that. Right that have just like tons of Wallet Dot. That's because I on a couple of different occasions had to change computers and wound up losing bitcoin that I had received. But then my wallet could no longer find because I hadn't backed up the Wallet Dot file recently enough. So that kind of led to this whole It led to a number of technologies hierarchical deterministic sort of primary among them, which took that idea that your computer is just randomly going to generate these things and instead. Okay. Instead of randomly generating them, we start with this and then here's address one here's address to and you can generate and I believe unlimited number of addresses using this type of system without necessarily having to constantly be backing up. When you use too many addresses. Yeah I mean that's the problem with legacy technology as my kind. No, there was a time when we used wooden coffins instead of stone ones and it was just a mess you know. It could leak light from a window or people could turn into a wooden stake right there with outsourcing other additional materials the improvement with stone coffins was significant well, speaking of permanence Another kind of early topic that I think is much more refined. These days was this idea of the brain wallet right? Especially in areas you know like where for example, you're going to. Go to sleep for one hundred and fifty years, and it's potential that the parchment that you've gone to sleep with is in necessarily going to retain all the information that you need. Well, brain wallets made it. So you could just remember a word phrase or a song lyric and you would be able to then recover your bitcoin with that but there were some problems with that approach. Yeah, I mean even even for pirates, it's hard to remember for one hundred fifty years and you know some things are more memorable than others you know can I remember a phrase of Song Lyric? How marie-antoinette tasted? Some things I can somethings I can't. That some people can easily remember they tend to be reused, and so then you end up with different people who are holding the same keys and they're like, wait a minute where did my coins go while someone else had the same idea as you for brain wallet some people would put them in Google too, and then that was just like exposing them to the entire Internet. It has your keys now. Soledad doubts to you also the brain politics idea a lotta people overestimate their own abilities, create randomness and underestimate the ability of other people to attack that randomness. So this technique and information security called. A rainbow table a look up table the used for passwords to, which is effectively if you think about to bring wallets as just a common phrase like Mary, had a little lamb to do not use that one and then that's hashed into a key. Well, here's the thing. It's not difficult to harsh a lot of common phrases in fact. This is used to attack passwords to. So what you do is you take. Hundreds of thousands, millions of words and common phrases and a song names and lyrics and. Stories and TV characters, and in fact, on the Internet among forums there are. Hundreds of prebuilt dictionaries that contain things that people commonly hughes from cling onto Elvis to star trek names and characters to common phrases. All things like that. You Hash all of those things and you make a database that is several billion entries, and then all you have to do is keep an eye on the blockchain and look up every address that appears on the blockchain to see if it matches. One of the ones you've already created, and if it does, you already know the phrase that it correspondence because us the database you have, and you simply spend the money. The time it takes or brain wallet to be sees today is two point seven seconds. From the moment it is broadcast the bitcoin network two point, seven seconds and someone spent it. It's interesting to kind of think about that as sort of the where we ended. But in kind of the earlier days, that was not really true. This was sort of one of the first opportunities that opportunists within sort of the cryptocurrency community found to be able to try and sort of systemically farm people's naivete. You might call it through this sort of brain wallet compromise scheme, and in the kind of I remember back in the in the very beginning this did happen but it wasn't automatic. It was literally people who would just go in try all kinds of common things and establish wallets kind of. I remember blockchain. Dot Info was one of the big places where this would happen a lot but But again, like if you look at what happens these days in defy and with many as smart contract driven platforms where you have lots and lots of money these contracts and there's no simple way to do it like kind of with the old brain wallet but you're still looking for those weaknesses in the system you're still looking for those exploits and although the difficulty of finding things that you can exploit has gone up a lot while the amounts of money that we're talking about now also gone up just L. At least as much if not more in that same amount of time. I also remember when Blockchain Info would send you an email with your wallet dot that file whenever you send a transaction. And you'd have to think about which g mail account and went to and how that's now there forever. Those were fun times. Yeah, it was a it was a more naive time certainly So another thing that kind of came out subsequent to all of this as people were starting to become more concerned about privacy was the idea of multi wallets and we're now on a you know a much later implementation but those early implementations even it's it's such kind of like a sign of where we started from where none of this stuff existed and so many things had to kind of be discovered by people doing the wrong thing I, a couple of times before we finally got to the right way to do it. was such a terrifying thing in and of itself I mean I it came out and it was a very long time in bitcoin time periods. Before anyone meaningfully used it was it was one of those things that you knew you should be using, but you are too afraid to touch sort of like how everyone knows they might should have solar panel, but they're really glad someone else does what most people are terrified to touch them all day today. Yeah well, I remember one of the funny stats was. When a theory of did their crowd sale? They did it in the one system. They could trust financial inclusion security to which was bitcoin. And they wanted it to be secure so that use multi sake and so for the year where theory had a crowd sale and had that Bitcoin, in that multi-ethnic address, it was something like thirty to forty percent of all multi bitcoins worthy of crowd sale funds because they were. It was frankly that much effort it took to set up a multi sick and if you think bitcoin multi say which is implemented in the core protocol is scary. You haven't heard about parity multi on. which is the one that failed ended up having the smart contracts underlying killed and then. Locked up at the time one, hundred, fifty, million dollars that had been raised by various companies that we using it as their treasury. Yeah I think another interesting thing is the we talk about how scary and difficult to use things were in the past you know. And we sound like like where millennia old you know back in my days, you had to walk from the castle to the school every day. Hill both ways uphill both ways and snow. But the thing is the things still difficult to use things have still scary for newbies and we're nowhere near a level of maturity that will allow us to go mainstream and have more people easily adopt. This stuff is just we have become. A bit more experienced and a lot more numb to the risks and difficulties. So we don't notice them anymore. But if you talk to some of the people who are new, you know. Twenty nine thousand nine hundred twenty twenty users. There are still baffled and bewildered by all of this and if anything there's now so much more technology to try to learn. You know. You're right in I. Agree with you in that you know there are still meaningful challenges in front of it but I think that a lot of the way the bitcoin has developed as a use case moving away from sort of the base transactional thing where kind of in the early days we'll talk about narratives that didn't survive sort of the the years that have gone by a little while but but just that whole idea that you know like multi, for example, in those first implementations, multi was something that wasn't supported in really any wallet and that played a large role in why it was so challenging you sure it was there in the protocol, but you don't use bitcoin via the. Protocol, you use bitcoin via some sort of wallet or other device that than is implementation of that protocol and today if you WanNa, go looking for multi wallets that are easy to set up and relatively easy to manage again like we've come so far that we still have certainly much further to go but there's been a lot of progress since then and it's been again you know like we feel like this has been a long long time because obviously you know I've grown a beard and and Andreas has been asleep for twelve years, but it's only actually been about twelve years since the advent of technology. So if you compare that against most other things I think that we're looking pretty good here. I WANNA turn US briefly to sort of an it's not really the origin story for the show but one of the reasons why I thought that There was an opportunity to create a podcast about bitcoin and a show about bitcoin way back in two thousand thirteen, and it was actually the third or fourth one that I had created by that point was because of another show that had existed and which had gone pretty aggressively extinct I in the in the run-up to are starting to show, it was a show called the bitcoin show So bitcoin show was a product of only one TV cast live five days a week in video and audio out of new. York City Studio one day a week they even broadcast in Spanish as El Show de Bitcoin. So this was a very forward-looking enterprise in I. Believe Twenty Eleven through twenty twelve the bitcoin show is created by early evangelist Bruce. Wagner and friends, and the super early days was literally the only place you could go beyond the Bitcoin talk forums to learn about the technology and at the time it's incredibly rapid development even though as we're discussing obviously had some challenges, it's where I went to watch news about bitcoin. It was also the I believe the organizer of the very first bitcoin conference that was publicly announced and that again happened in New York City at their at their stew I think back in twenty eleven or twenty twelve. Yeah, POW there. So the the show actually was was quite popular and was very well produced mostly run by volunteers but they stepped on a landmine that really influenced our decision. You'll. You'll notice if you're a listener of the show that we don't really talk about products in any sort of a review or endorsement way, and that is entirely intentional and it is because with all of these challenges that we're talking about the ability to look at a product and be like, Oh, not only is this a good product, but it's not inevitably going to blow up in my. Face, is actually really hard to find, and so that is pretty much exactly what happens to the Bitcoin show is that I'm you know we're talking about these challenges with the early ways the wallets worked, and one of the ways that people tried to solve that one of the ways was brain wallets, which had the problems we're talking about. Another way was early web wallets and today when we think of web wallets worth thinking of Meta a mask and we're thinking of you know like what's another one edge dot? It's not really a weblog. Those are applications just. Our wallets really not Zola's thank you. Now they're extensions and browser wallets. Yeah. So you know this kind of early period of time before we knew better the. Instead. Of looking like a mask or something like that where you are holding your own keys as Andrea says. A lot more like the exchanges of the day and you would basically have a log in that. You would go to a website for, and then you would be holding your bitcoin there and it would feel like it was your bitcoin. But that whole, not your not your coins thing comes into play here and my Bitcoin, which is what the wallet specifically that was endorsed by the show is called either hacked or there was an exit scam we still don't really know as we often don't in these situations and hundreds of thousands of Bitcoin were lost. I. I was looking at the stats and I believe it's something like one point eight, billion dollars worth of Bitcoin, current prices. Was Luckily they actually had fifty percent of their bitcoin kept in cold storage, which at the time was an incredibly advanced idea. We can talk about paper wallets in a minute Andreas I know that you have some thoughts about those Huddah but again like this whole idea of how you look at this space and figure out what is or isn't safe. Stephanie. What was your experience with the early Web Wallets in the space? I remember blockchain that Info and also insta- Wallet Instant Wallet. was another one that got. Somehow compromised and it lost a bunch of users coins and actually had some coins in there and I remember like applying for a refund or something and I got like half a bitcoin back or something I got like half of it back basically. So I guess that's better than nothing but it definitely taught me not to rely on web wallets anymore and You know those were good because you could tell someone who at that time I was really interested in like trying to spread the word about bitcoin because I thought it was really cool. So I was telling People Oh, you know you don't have to be that technical just go to INSTA- Wallet Dot Com or Dot Info and just create like logging in a password, and then you can space story of Bitcoin there and it was great to be able to tell someone to do that. But then it wasn't safe and then they would come back to me me like, Hey, what happened to my bitcoin? You told me to go to this website. So. It was it was a common story and you know in the in the kind of aftermath of a lot of that people started turn they. Well, you know there's no real business model here but exchanges have a business model. Why don't I just keep my coins in someplace much safer like Mount Gawks? Johnson. AFER. Exactly. So Jonathan what do you remember kind of about the early days of Mt. Cox when it was seen as really solution here excuse me before we can go into that topic. I just want to point out we got. Two hundred and sixty people or so on live right now thank you all for joining us on this beautiful Saturday night and Thank you all for coming and participating for those of you who are wondering what the Hell is going on. It's Halloween and the United States, which is a special costume day As you can see, we have all dressed up as a various variations of sexy nurse and Yes. I'm the recently deceased sexy nurse but those various of the models out there. And if you're wondering who these other people are because your own white channel and you're wondering what the Hell's going on with that I've been doing a podcast, which is now caught more than five hundred episodes. I believe Adam right four, hundred and sixty somewhere range coaching the normal episodes. Yeah. We're getting there four hundred, sixty episodes since March ray pull of two thousand, thirteen and it is the longest running podcast about bitcoin and related things and the original. Let's talk bitcoin show as it was called now called speaking of Bitcoin so be and. These. Are My co hosts so I'll passback todd I'm so he can continue the conversation. Okay sounds good injuries. Thank you for that Anki, engines. So. What actually before we get to before we get to the the Malcolm X. Topic and kind of the era of exchange hacks that it spawned Let's talk about some just kinda early experiences in terms of scams within the space 'cause this is a space that is notorious for scams and they started pretty darn early. I think the the best place to start is pre exchange, which was doing transactions and person. Right I mean the there was before now gawks there was something even worse even more disgusting and even more scary to do business with and it was called pay pal. and. So what people would do is say, why don't I pay you money and you can send me the Bitcoin? And that's one as a community we learnt what? When you send it, you can't charge it back. Actually means what immutability means when it comes to no chargebacks because tape how doesn't have that problem? In fact, it's not a bug it's a feature, and so I cannot count the number of people in the early days of Bitcoin who would find someone on Bitcoin talk or find someone over facebook Hell I. Did I did a transaction for twenty bucks. A quarter of a bitcoin now. Hey. And did it over pay pal and because Bitcoin can't be charged back. A day later you find out hey, I didn't have that twenty bucks. I thought I had. And you got scammed. which led to the innovation that at the time was local bitcoin dot com today it's something of an institution around the world especially in places where exchanges are not allowed but at the time that was seen and it wasn't just that too I remember there were John Lights and a variety of other people engaged in what were called the button would meet ups We did a number of new early episodes on these and button would was a reference to the start of the stock market. Basically, I'm when the stock market had been basically just guys meeting at a coffee shop. Or in a park and trading ownership shares in companies. Yeah and so that. in New York City actually back in early two, thousand, thirteen, the community was talking about scary stories about people meeting in person and feeling Berry afraid for themselves in their security. and. So at the early meet UPS, we had this conversation it was it was like a two hour conversation. We decided actually to meet every Monday at Union. Square. So from about two thousand thirteen route to like twenty fifteen there were weekly meetings in the park. And the funny thing was this was during occupy Wall Street cops were everywhere and people thought bitcoin itself was criminal. And so they said, what are you to do a transaction? He said the park. So why would you do a transaction the park and we said that's where all the cops are. So. So so there'd be twenty or thirty of us, and so both for your own security but for a normal person someone who's new to the space, you feel a lot safer that thirty random people aren't going to rob you than what? and one of the. least scary ways to by early bitcoin would be to at least New York go to a park and in fact. It got to the point where I think there are over twenty of these Let's meet up once a week and buy and sell in person bitcoins they were called like button woods or squares. Yes. Square was the other one. Yeah. So And Yeah that was one of the ways where if bit instant couldn't serve you and Malka couldn't do it and you're afraid of pay pal, you would just meet in the park in your local city. Your. Local parks in local park in the city. Yes speaking of trying to trade peer to peer using the existing banking system and pay pal chargebacks weren't the only thing you have to worry about. If paypal found out that you were selling cryptocurrency, they would ban your accounts or other other institutions to banks Some banks were accepting like you know you could drive up and deposit an envelope of cash into someone else's account and they stopped that real quick. There were a lot of people that got their accounts shutdown and so you could you could find yourself. UNBAGGED pretty quickly. Maybe that wasn't scary to some but. For some people, it could be a very inconvenient. It wasn't until the Senate hearings in in November of two thousand thirteen that the different alphabet letter agencies in America said that owning bitcoin in and of itself wasn't date cry. They went on the record and said that right after that sentence was said Bitcoin went from five hundred to nine hundred. There is still a stigma. There is still a stigma for on there. That was another big reason. Why Why sort of the in person group event thing became a thing? Why frankly local bitcoins became a thing is because at least in the United States. Although the legal status about this thing was very uncertain and was not at all clear that there wouldn't be trouble I remember in the early days when I was starting shows I started the first four Bitcoin podcasts that I did not using my real name and that was because there was concerned that will putting the stuff on the record might be a thing. But the one thing we did know is that two people in a non business setting you know trading one thing for another not something that can be made. Illegal if it's not already proactively illegal, you can't you can't be retroactively turned into an illegal action and so that kind of led to this in-person thing which I had a really positive impact in Andrey I'd like you to kind of from this one, but really started to build a community of people who didn't know each other on the Internet even though what we were talking about was magical Internet. Money started to build the relationships in real life and create the infrastructure that we've now seen develop into frankly an enormous industry. Yeah, and I at the time for a brief period I actually. tried. To help people get the first bitcoin so I would sell small amounts i. At most a few hundred dollars a Bitcoin in-person. I didn't buy it that way but I sold it that way and got cash and it was really I was selling it out the market rate no markup, no profit just the market rate and the goal was to help introduce bitcoin in a safe manner that were antony good exchanges. It was very difficult to find. Bitcoin and there were people interested. So. I would meet. I would meet a person in. In like a shopping mall. Or starbucks in a public place with lots of other people. So they didn't feel worried about it. and I would tell people don't. Don't try to commit any fraud 'cause you will be dealing with police which if YOU'RE A criminal is Warren but if you're not a criminal is actually reassuring and. The problem of course was. Selling, bitcoin is much riskier than buying it. So if you buy bitcoin in person, you can verify especially if it has escrow that the bitcoin is indeed real and yours so can just wait around for a few for one confirmation would be enough in most cases. and. Then you're comfortable. Right you've got the Bitcoin is yours done On the other hand, selling bitcoin is a bit more risky and I did get scammed once memorably when I sold a few hundred dollars worth Bitcoin and was passed counterfeit. Twenty dollar bills. And I didn't know they were counterfeit at the time. It wasn't sophisticated enough to test them So I looked at them thinking I can tell right we can all tell a look and see if there's What looks like a watermark and if it feels right etc CETERA. It turns out you can't tell and. I discovered very quickly. The forge twenty dollar bills are remarkably difficult to tell apart unless you have a UV Patton and you know how to use it and you can shine a light through its and all of that. So. Iron listed gets wet in your case right so in my case I then. Later that day. was at a bar with some friends and I paid for some drinks and the bartender call me back and said, hey, dude, don't pull that. She heard this money isn't real like excuse me. And my twenty dollar bill which had left down on the counter. Had melted. Because got wet and Lyndon doesn't do that. But Printer paper does and it was a type of printer paper that was felt very linen like but didn't then stand water very well. So. They were very nice by told them I honestly had no intention of scamming you. This was an honest mistake someone pass me this. and. Know Fortunately, I didn't have a cop come along and stand on my neck for eight minutes. And I was able to laugh it off what ended after which is. Funny I took the forged dollar bills that I had been given and laminated them together with some real dollar bills and are turned it into an exercise would meet people at meet ups and I would give them ten dollars worth of Bitcoin, real, money. If they could spot the fake twenty dollar bill in my little laminated cards became a lesson and most people couldn't which it was a public service. To to help people I know that it's very easy to to defraud people. Yes. So that was my lesson and from them and I knew I could trust bitcoin when I can verify it but it's much harder to verify things like US dollar bills. And also gold. which started giving me some ideas about the real value of this system. Definitely Stephanie or Jonathan, would either of you like to share a story about your early experiences with Bitcoin or any early scams that you fill victim to. Well, I would say that one of my most fun experiences when it comes with fear is the bitcoin transactions especially early days and Bitcoin. Because You hear something and even when you get knowledgeable you think number is like this magic line in the sand that means you're okay. And so people heard six confirmations means you wouldn't get a Bitcoin chargebacks six magic number six. There's nothing holier in Bitcoin the number six. And so if you had a one bitcoin confirmation, that's just the hello, you have a to bitcoin confirmation that's a how do. But when you get to three to four, then you're all right. But six six is where the real magic happens and so there was this fear out there that you would get. You would get. You would get wiped out that someone would roll back the blocks that they would. They would replay your transactions or do something and you can't. If you said that Bitcoin, you would never see it again and so. I had transactions in twenty thirteen with people. Where we ended up waiting six confirmations where someone would say, Hey, I, WanNa buy Bitcoin I wanNA buy right now. I'm a friend of this guy we've never met before but so and so about. I'm like all right. You can come by stop at my place for five minutes and you'll be on your way sent a bitcoin knee he goes. All right. Well, I need to wait for six confirmations and so I would have a random guy. This guy just sat on the porch for. An hour and a half until confirmations game got lemonade. I guess for free out of it. That was a fun time. Another time I had that was rather scary was somebody else I knew it his first bitcoin transaction I think it was the first time. I ever saw sixteen thousand dollars in cash on a table. which was which was scary because imagine trying to buy bitcoin there was no other way than. A bag of cash. and. The value of that in terms of what you were getting four sixteen thousand dollars well compared to today today at by slightly more than one I think I saw prices go over fourteen thousand dollars again, this morning. And but you know at the time you were talking about quite a lot of bitcoin quite quite a large. A certainly, not me I wish I had that kind of. But The the guy who brought the bag of cash literally bought brought ex-marine with him. This is my ex marine friend. He was a trained killer. By the way, here's the bag of money. You need the security to match the risk I guess. That's another thing that I think people have fear about, but don't realize which is that. The average retail bank. Has Less than twenty thousand dollars in cash in it? And so when you're looking at soft targets, if you have more than one and a quarter or one and a half bitcoin on you right now in your possession or somewhere in your home, you're a softer richer target than robbing all the money in a bank right now. and. That's something just to leave you with today. WHO Let's take a brief breather hair. And we have three hundred and twenty people on the live stream. Welcome to everybody who just joined. If you're wondering what's happening, I'm here with my co host from the original. Let's Talk Bitcoin show now speaking of Bitcoin and. We are all wearing scary costumes because it is Halloween in the US. And if you thinks theft costume isn't scary, you don't know about lyme disease ticks and. Jonathan. A lot of people on chat are asking they're not quite sure what's happening with you. So I just want everyone to constantly live in fear of the fifty one percent attack. Happening it's going to occur and it's not. It's just it's just kissed her loved ones say hello to your Saito Cheese and say goodbye to them as they. I'd infinitely as fifty one percent attacker I mean for many millennials just using the word is scary enough. They have no idea what it needs. So. Yeah, I think you can I I'm worried that you're going to get tired. So I think you can put your your down. Now the explanation I don't know that we'll have to any people joining. But you can kind of bring it up whenever you want suddenly, and in case people forget that it is indeed nigh Very good One second So toast, my lovely co hosts. Thank you so much for joining today. I don't know if you also have. A nice beverage This is a fantastic. California own egg. Is. It is not aged from a young young. kind of like a Beaujolais Nouveau. The baby. This came from was slightly older than a year. So. Cheers to you all. Indeed. Fantastic So I remember the first time that That I was looking to buy bitcoin. at the time, the methods that were available for me to do. So this was before the era of button would before the era of sort of you know really any sort of meaningful methods and I remember there was one person on the Bitcoin talk forums, which was one of the very early places where all of the community happened at the time before we have this broad aura that's come sense and there was a gentleman who went by the name Bitcoin Morpheus who you could have an address in DC Washington DC, where you could send an envelope full of cash and he would then transfer Bitcoin to you and at the time I believe Bitcoin. Cost about like five dollars each something in that range and and I I was considering getting about ten and I was like you know it's just too risky just just too risky in hindsight not a great choice but but the kind of early you know unsupported nature of this. There had been experiments like this before and I think we have a question will begin to in the second hour a where we kinda talk about sort of the early origins of the technology from Adam back that would later in part inspire bitcoin and the way proof of work works but Stephanie you know I think that It was twenty eleven that you got your first. Bitcoin. Sarah Yeah. And I got it as a gift. It was like a tip for a radio show that I was doing and someone who is listening to. It was actually a very ended up becoming a very influential person in the world of Bitcoin. the original bitcoin Jesus. Yes. The original victim Jesus that was that was who I got my first coin from. And Yeah I I'm really grateful for that because it changed my life for sure. I have a scary story about paper wallets guys wanted that. So we haven't really talked about this yet but. Back. Like in the early days, you know everyone was talking about cold storage like after all these web wallet hacks were happening people were saying, well, you shouldn't store your coins and a web wallet. You should store them in a paper while it right because a paper wallet is offline and so I was like okay I learned how to. Use. An offline copy of the bit address Dot Org website to generate private keys offline. So I had some friends who were doing it with like a graphing calculator. One of wrote a program to do it and someone was doing it with dice. I didn't go that far I was using an offline copy of bit address. But you know I was learning how to do this and made some paper wallets and was like using some for cold storage and a friend of mine. Asked me how to do how did I do this and wanted me to teach them how to do it. So I said okay sure I'll teach you. And you know we went through it together, and then my friend proceeded to make a bunch of paper wallets because at the time like I, this may have even been before hierarchical deterministic wallets and so each set of keys was a different address and then you would just kind of split up your coins and put like one coin in each address or something, and that was a separate piece of paper and so my friend was doing this but they were also like a digital minimalist kind of and. Wanted to keep the amount of paper in their life down. So they came up with the idea to print these paper wallets to like a pdf or something, and then store them as an encrypted file in the cloud and I was like, okay, that's pretty smart. It's like a paperless paper while it. Well, there was a problem. There was a print to pdf problem with whatever browser they were using, and somehow it cut off the the Qr Code that you needed to get the private key of like. There were five paper while it's on every page, it cut off one of them, and so my friend had already loaded all of them and they ended up losing twenty percent of their coins because then they couldn't access though the paper wallet so. There were lucky. They didn't lose all of them but. Things like that would happen and then there's always the problem of like what if it gets wet? What is it burns? What if you know walks away? So and we didn't talk about and we didn't. We didn't talk about the security implications of that Wallet Dot Data. Approach. But I remembered that there was like a meaningful decision that had to be made in the very early days when you were creating one of these, do I want to encrypt this or not? Because if you didn't encrypt it, someone could take it right like someone and there. Were instances where like someone used someone else's computer found in unencrypted Wallet Dot, Dat file and would steal a bitcoin from that. But there were also plenty of instances where people would encrypt their while dot dot files and write down the password and then lose the password because you gotta make it hard. So they can't crack it and then that was exactly the same problem there were ways to happen. Yeah. I I got locked out of a Wallet Dot Dat in the original Bitcoin qt client, and then I had to have some hacker like. I gave gave them what I thought was the password and they tried a bunch of different combinations and they took commission gave me back. Always bad I didn't want to do that again. Someone I know had a similar problem with it. Forgot though password to the wallet thought that was so desperate that they want to. A hypnotist like not like a circus hypnotist, not like a a show hypnotise like a psychotherapist to specialized in hypnosis. To help progress them to the moment they were typing in their password and help them remember it and it worked and they were able to recover their wallet dot that all of these scary stories By the way I'm still fighting a battle on social media especially on read it. With. Trying, to persuade people that DIY security to save sixty dollars worth. Of the costs it will be to buy a hard wallet and instead tried to build tails. On an old laptop used tore and bit addressed on Oregon in Coleman's bit thirty, nine tool or do paper wallets or do air gap machines, all of these. Solutions are absolutely terrible and I keep getting people contacting me telling me they're they're horror story of how they. Lost all of their savings because they tried to do some kind of diy solution and then fucked it up So and came in mind that's not because I'm against paper wallets. Business in Bitcoin actually was. A People Wallet Design Kohl's safe paper wallet, which came as a kit. The you can generate an install. And printouts at your home and it came with everything you need to do it and it was it was okay for the time being and it was designed to be able to give. Away to cold storage at Balkh but. Those systems are obsolete. The tails operating system isn't an operating system for security. It's an operating system for online privacy is not meant to be air gapped in fact, designed to go online. It doesn't actually protect your operating system. Running, it isn't very secure go far too much overhead on. The web based Wallet Generators generators like bit addressing the Coleman's site. Are testing purposes not for using producing. Production level randomness the average user can very easily get redirected to a fake site. And generate something that is either not random more leaks keys. All of these solutions allow people very easily to exceed their level of skill in the pursuit of. This false sense of security. And dissolution is really easy. You spend sixty dollars and you get hard wallet it's not worth spending sixty dollars. You don't have enough going to lose, and if you have enough bitcoin to lose by a fucking hardware wallets and stop wasting time trying to become a security expert at great risk that's about all I. Keep losing because people keep coming into every one of those strides and going. But but what if people wallet this down this way but what if we do it that way but one of them? and. I'll just keep fighting mostly one day we'll succeed in persuading people not to take these stupid stupid risks with their money. Before, there were ledger and Nanno related solutions. One really did have to do it. And you just reminded me of story where I had helped a friend. By a net book. And we went to pc Richard in person because we didn't want the male to man in the middle of the laptop. And ended up explicitly buying a laptop just to install armory on it. Goes Armory. off-line signing with a thumb drive, and then I remember putting all the software and the thumb drive set this naked laptop never touch the internet and then checking the check sums to make sure that the software don't. Get in the middle before i. It that's what you have to do that. But I mean, that's a process that for security professional, you're looking at a minimum of twelve hours to create a hardware. Secure Air gapped piece of hardware installed correctly, and and it takes a lot of work. And takes a lot of work and that's if you know exactly what you're doing, I used to build air gap systems. For my job. For companies the needed to do things like certificate signing. For four financial networks in the banking industry, and these are very difficult to do, and they're very difficult to new right and even more difficult to maintain the maintenance protocol is incredibly complex. So you don't end up compromising after the fact, and all of that work has been done for you and hard wall. That's what hardware wallet is. It's a laptop without tend to think that's unnecessary and an operating. System without anything that's unnecessary. That's designed to do exactly what you're trying to do with a laptop in an operating system only done by people actually know what they're doing in Minneapolis easy to mess up. It's so easy to mess up in so many ways and it's so easy to mess up ways don't result in theft, but simply reduce your degree of redundancy resilient so you just lose it through. An accident. Hardware. Damage corruption whatever. Before, we go to our next topic I do want to point out that we are going to be taking questions from the audience and in order to. To ask questions. You need to one second. Go. In order tries questions you need to use. Our slide show. So we have a slide over this trough questions go to slide Hautacam. The Event Code is scary crypto son of a bitch. SCR, scary, crypto speaking of Bitcoin, which is the name of our podcast and You can ask your questions there and keep in mind. If you ask a question that already hind of has been asked by someone else you end up splitting the votes, we will only have time to answer a ten or twelve questions. If you see one of those close enough to what you WANNA ask vote Pat won't up if you ask it again, slightly differently, you split the votes in half between your question, the other almost guaranteeing neither your question nor the other one is close enough will get answered that some election strategy for you just in case you wanted to sink not typically about selections anytime soon. All right. That sounds good. So before we get to questions, there is one more area that I would like to touch on. We're unfortunately not going to get to some of the stuff that I think would be fun but one area that is fun. Is the we haven't really talked about mining at all. And mining was one of those narratives that in the very early days of Bitcoin, there was this idea of one CPA one vote which was taken by most to mean at the time that one CPU would be per person and then there would be many many many people participating and it was only through this sort of arms race of of equipment that we've really reached the level of boats security on the one side, but also kind of the industrial nature of the mining ecosystem today. But back in the early days that was not true and everybody wanted to mind when you came in. This is still true today people today who are new to the system. Oh, how can I mind I'd love to mind and earn some free Bitcoin, but it's not really doable. But back in twenty thirteen when we were getting started I, it was and actually one of the companies that comes to mind which isn't around anymore is this company called butterfly labs and they had this product called the Jalapeno that was announced. I. Believe in the summer of Twenty twelve and then subsequently released a year or two later of far far past the sort of. A very, very late didn't really do it wanted, but the Jalapeno was this It was envisioned as almost a coffee warmer than just this little box that you would plug in, and then you put your Coffee Cup on it and it would use the heat being generated by the by the mining power to keep your cup of coffee warm and at the time it came out I believe it cost about one hundred, twenty dollars and taking pre orders in Bitcoin. That's right. This was One of the kind of continual lessons throughout of our time here in Bitcoin is that it feels great to spend bitcoin. bought. Later, it feels really really really dumb and so I remember with this one I preordered one of them and I think I paid thirteen bitcoin for at the time, which at the time I was like this is great. The price of Bitcoin has gone up a little bit and so. EASILY, make it back, right? Well, I don't know about thinking I'd make it back I don't know it was just so hard to conceptualize sort of the price doing what it would then later go to do. You know in the first year US doing the show. When I believe I was still waiting for For the this to be delivered, the price of Bitcoin had gone up to hundreds of dollars and then to low thousands of dollars and so this thirteen bitcoin that it seemed like such a great spend at the time on this device that I was sure was going to be really cool. Wow. No big something that later I was like, oh, man, this is a terrible idea and I actually got a refund in I believe the winter before we started the. Show and I, they gave me the refunding bitcoin. So I got back like a quarter of the BITCOIN. But by having gotten that refund I was still able to you know not lose everything that I had spent on it but my total cost on that device when was finally delivered I think I calculated it was in the thousands of dollars range and that's a lesson that I've learned over and over and over again So I'll just kind of. to to the rest of the hosts but you know talk to me about like Ding and things that you spent, and you know what you later thought about them and also talked to me about kind of your early involvement with mining to the degree that you participated Stephanie let's start with you. I I got into mining kind of late at first. I was experimenting with Mining Light Coin, and at the time I was in school and I had access to a workplace with free electricity and so I was like, hey, why not try it and I tried mining some light coin I think I was still a little too late to the game. At that point, they were starting to use GPS mining at that point instead of c peers and so then I got the bug and I was interested in it and I set up like a GP RAG at my house just to see if I could do it and. I. Think I got a few light coins. It really wasn't enough to pay for the US in the electric city like it was definitely just a hobby. So I was I was not doing it professionally enough and. The market kicked me out, which is probably a good thing. and. Then later, I in a raffle or something. I won a cloud mining contract like when cloud mining was supposed to be was starting to thing and I was thinking like I. Don't think I would ever by this and I don't really understand like how this works. It feels a little bit weird but it was cool to to win that and just see like a payout at come into my address every couple. Talk about something airy cloud mining contracts. So Yeah, I can twenty thirteen. It was way too hard to have enough skill to make a coin. And so the original Shit coin was just selling these fake digital certificates that claimed that the other person was mining bitcoin for you. As very easy to turn into a policy because all you had to do is pay out of the original investors and the mining from the income from the future investors which made them feel like they were making profit for mining and there's no way to verify that there's an machines running in the background that are actually mining and this continues to this day. I get contacted at least a couple of times. A month from people are pulled in being pulled into a crypto mining scam. where? there are told the payout is imminent anytime now they're going to get. The going to get a payouts and that of course never happens. All. Right. Is everybody ready to go to questions. So let me just wrap that one up. Yes we'll go to questions right after this. So, there were a number of I think we can at this point, call them scams or Ponzi schemes that made extensive use of this whole cloud mining proposition particularly notable one was gentleman named Josh Garza. GW miners and pay coin and a couple of other projects and he actually did up, it was actually quite interesting. It was one of the first instances of community that was involved in a scam in cryptocurrency aggressively coming to the defense of the person who was running the scam and I remember back when Let's Talk Bitcoin was a full news desk we were working closely with A. Gentleman named Mike who ran a site called coin fire and he was all over that story and wound up getting into a bunch of legal actions with Josh Garza and Josh Garza was eventually convicted of I believe wire fraud charges and sentenced to twenty one months in federal prison and he was also find nine million dollars for that actually. So it was quite a you know this was. An early project which took years to work its way through the legal system But yeah, cloud mining again that that attraction that people have to mining at the point that it became industrialized and it wasn't really possible to do anymore while there are always people who are willing to take your money and tell you what you wanted to hear, and that remains true in bitcoin today. So it's just another reminder to keep your wits about something sounds too good to be true it probably is but with that Andreas, let's go to questions. All right. Let me let me get this up. All right, and here is our first question and I'm GonNa have to switch screens quickly so I can actually read it 'cause I only became immortal in my fifties which point already needed reading glasses tragedy for him Pires. One of the major threats and risks associated with Bitcoin as an investment excluding sound monetary policy, any technical threat? How about China's influence? This question comes from Mati. Well I will say that. I've gone to a number of like Internet committee events like the World Wide Web and I can and other such related organizations and when you talk to people who sit on the boards of those organizations or on steering committees especially early in the life of Bitcoin they would say you know one of the concerns I have is how the backbone for this infrastructure is based in China and what the political ramifications of US agreeing to put our influence behind making this a part of core infrastructure to the Internet would do. I don't know how their opinions have changed over the years but I can say that that that was a real concern or at least a real perceived concern. By some when it comes to a global standards. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely and I think the China thing is overplayed. In many ways, people seem not particularly worried about the fact that all of our computers smartphones and. A whole bunch of other consumer products are all made in China to and so what if China stops making phones for us or? Things like that or what if they attempt to manipulate? Wall hardware is produced for political purposes Of course, a lot of people are worried about that too. But. I. Think. This is an overblown concern especially when it comes to to bitcoin mining but that's pretty controversial opinion. Let's go to our next question I. Would I would tell in that one last statement which was at in recent years China's actually not found mining to be something that they enjoy governmental level and so have been signaling to people hey, this is not really the most preferred business you could be doing, and so you've actually seen a lot of the hash rate leave China. And one of the most interesting things that have happened is in the past couple of years, America's been become a very competitive energy market and you've seen a ton of very large. Mining facilities actually come to the states so if you were to look at the hash rate especially. In to its trajectory, I would say that we finally gotten to some level of geographic diversity and it's diversifying more and more each year. Our next question comes from Tom. What are some scary mistakes you can make with multi wallets? Off Start. In order to reconstruct the Maltese league, you have to maintain a copy of the original x pubs or public keys used in the multi script. It is not enough to have backups of, let's say in two or three script, it's not sufficient to have backups of only two of. The seeds because you can't actually reconstruct the script and the multi addresses with at least having the public keys for the third wallet. So even though theoretically and a to serie. Moldy, sake if you if you lose one set of keys, you can continue that is not true if you do not have a backup of the script. Another thing that that I've personally fallen victim to is thinking that I'm doing the right thing by being really really focused on creating a secure wallet. So for example, a three of three wallet where you know I control all of the keys and then you lose a single key or one of them gets damaged or someone who is holding it for you is no longer holding for you and now none of it is accessible. So with you always kind of want to build. In a little bit of margin of error for yourself where it's hard for someone. So you know breaking your house or whatever and steal one of your keys and that doesn't give them enough to get into it. But at the same time, you leave yourself some room to make personal mistakes because they can and do happen whether you intended them to or not. Yeah. Never used three of three never used to to. You should always have a small aquarium than the the total. Also, there's issues with inheritance and passing them onto airs. You know there's a, there's an entire book about this by Pamela Morgan. Crypto acid inheritance planning where most of the time you know people are concerned about security people stealing their coins but most of the the issue is that their their loved ones can't access their money after they're gone and they're no longer able to show them how to access it. So you have to sort of balance that and Yeah. That's that's definitely happened To I've heard of some examples of of this, you know like where it's. The security was kind of prioritized over the ease of access, which is always a tradeoff. Right in recent recently, I had an issue with multi wallet. I was just like you said Andreas trying to import it into a different wallet from one multi Sig enabled wallet into a different one and I got the derivation path wrong or something like that, and and I looked at the imported wallet like zero you know like there shouldn't be zero. And I panicked for a minute, but then I was thinking. Okay I you know I just I just had the wrong derivation path, but it's not always easy to tell. Her sure. Next question. Next question. Is Defy trick or treat no before we jump into this question, a couple of points of clarification I've been living in the United States for twenty years and. I was introduced the Halloween during my time here that doesn't exist in other countries. So what are the things that happens during Halloween is children Go from house to house encountering their neighbors, and they knock on the door and they say trick or treats and trick or treat is supposedly giving you a choice and the choice you have is between giving them poisonous sugar-laden treats toxic candy, or having the. Exact revenge on narrow property or self esteem with horrible trick some kind of Prang. Well, I can tell you from experience is someone who came to this country as a foreigner. This system is fundamentally broken. So in today's generation when the children came to my doorstep and they knocked on the door and they said trick or treat smiling broad smiles and then hold out the little buckets and I would say trick. They had no idea what to do next they were. Unprepared. They had only asked this question retarget. Received Candy and apparently they did not understand the purpose of the other part of the question and so when I chose trick always. They were confounded. And did not have any follow through on their empty threats. So I would sit back and laugh. You called their bluff on the candy extortion yeah. Listen. You'd better bring some some weapons or some dangerous ideas or something like that. So. All right so is defy. A trick or a treat who wants to go to that one. Well defy is like a large thing right like a large umbrella. Would I wonder like the person you fi- as a concept is perfect and beautiful like rainbows and Unicorns can never hurt you unless that's how you like it. Specific in stations of it however. Seemed to be far more. Trick. Than treat. However. It seems to be getting better over time but such is the nature of progress. It used to be that when you were looking at a system that built on top of a blockchain and use tokens within it, you're looking at a system that was inherently centralized, right so it's an exchange or a game or something like that, and it might look at Blockchain, but that was pretty much the extent of it and the blockchain itself was very simple in terms of what it did. Typically, it was just about tracking transfers of ownership from one party to another or one address to another irrespective of whether it's a new party. Would defy really did is it introduced the idea that you didn't actually need platforms that were external. You could do this all in all on top of blockchain that was You know that had smart contracts on it and so from a as Jonathan, said like from a philosophical standpoint, it's kind of beautiful concept where it's entirely accessible to everyone cannot be censored in the way that a server can be But in practice, what we've seen is that adding that complexity to blockchain's is very challenging to do safely. It's actually one of the things that you know again having been doing this as long as we have you'd expect that I think we'd be comfortable. With much of this technology but at least personally I still find smart contracts very risky and I. Still You know I I'm very reticent when I have to deal with anything because it is so permanent because it is a reversible. So from functionality perspective, I think defy is very promising and I think that it's very much a tree that could have large impacts on the world as it goes forward. But as far as the platforms that are out there right now, I really do view most everything that's happening more as as you know like the latest form of gambling that we've seen in crypto which has been kind of a theme that's come over and over again. And might eventually evolving the technology that completely changes everything but during this highly risky period. I don't know falls more on the trick site for me today. At least I would say that a good way to evaluate this is in the decision trees of outcomes. Defy. Right now. In every single scenario where the technology breaks, the system breaks was a hack you're funds got stolen something went wrong any sort of failure point? If the decision tree is always well, you knew going in this could have happened go it was your fault or ou weren't intelligent enough to deal with this and there every single failure point in that decision tree is just a Carpe Diem. Life is life is funny That's when things feel more tricky than treaty. And I feel like a lot of the space is still so nascent that the answer is instill an experiment means that we're still very much in the Trick. Rather than treat phase of these solutions we have. Largely true about Bitcoin to in the end you know in the comparable era to where defiance today is like especially. To today, we have a greater amount of certainty that the technology is robust and that the kind of obvious attacks or a relatively easy attacks will they must not exist because otherwise somebody would have pulled them and we would have seen you know tr- tokens transfer. We would have seen our compromises that indicate that it was the underlying technology. I think that again, just by nature of the complexity within that system that's pretty much where it is right now to like the technology obviously has promised but whether or not the current implementations of it have the robustness. That's. Really needed for the amounts of money that they're holding at any given time that is still very much up in the air and I, think we continued again like it's it's a lot like the early eras of trying to figure out how do you do wallets in a way that is both safe and accessible for people who don't have a mathematics degree right? Like that's just it's a hard problem and you have to do it the wrong way a bunch of bunch of times before you figure out what the right way is just by elimination of the other options. It's it's technology or a concept that's definitely worth refining but nobody really wants to go I accept those who are very comfortable with people are comfortable going I but like you know like a big prizes, big risks. So we all make personal decisions about that. All right. Next question. ooh I this one I find it scary that people send bitcoin deliberately to burn addresses. What reason would be nice to hear your opinion on how many bitcoins are lost forever. So there's really two parts of this question here. There's the burn addresses and what the heck's up with that thing, and then there's the. You know the bitcoins lost forever thing and does that create problems or risks moving forward so I'll just talk briefly about the burn thing, and then we'll go to the full panel for for the kind of the lost forever question So bitcoin burn addresses like they sound scary. But really what it is is it's intentionally sending bitcoin or or token on another block chain to an address that nobody has the case for and under most circumstances when people are talking about these things has an address that is so specific that it would be impossible for someone to randomly create it, and so it was prove ably on spendable zero address in a theory. Right. Exactly. At a theory does have a specific address in it that counts for this but in Bitcoin you kind of had to hot wire it. The reason why people typically do this and it's not a particularly scary reason there's there's really two scenarios. One is that you are transferring funds into another system where you are taking theory him for example, and you are converting it into something else right and so like the the kind of I think first major use of this was on the bitcoin chain when A. Token, protocol called Counterparty was was enabled basically, and basically this allowed you to create ear see twenty like tokens or just arbitrary tokens. We use the system to create lt be Klein on which was a rewards program that we run. We ran from two thousand fourteen through twenty seventeen for people who are part of the podcast network or who appeared on on the. podcasts there, and in order to create those tokens, there was a period of time where you would destroy your bitcoin and you would get one hundred of the counterparty token back for every one bitcoin that you destroyed, and this was the only way that you could initially get them and the reason why they did. It was because this came on the heels of another project. Called Master Coin and mastered was doing basically the same thing it was letting you create tokens that lived on top of Bitcoin but instead of doing a burn, they actually collected money and they used it to fund the project and there was a broad perception at the time. This was also the first ICO worth mentioning on way back in the summer of twenty thirteen beat it but. Made Tomato I think master point beat it but tomato. I mean master Quinn was the first ICO for sure and it had raised money and then it had over the course of about six months. spent a lot of that money in ways that many people within the space thought frankly was not particularly productive and so there was this kind of broad disillusionment within parts of the early token community around. Well, we're just not going to collect money at all, but we still need some way to distribute these tokens to people so that they can. Be a part of this network There are many projects that have struggled with this getting people to care about their project, right and the way the bitcoin did it was well at first you could just mind it and nobody really was mining it. So if you minded, you are quite a lot but as time went on that became harder, but it also established that user base that allowed people actually want to buy it because they could see that there was some value in it but for. New Protocols that were launching. They couldn't really repeat that because because of those reasons if you're talking about. So that's primarily why people use burn addresses is because you're transitioning whatever you're burning into something else and you are never going to get it back. Point isn't to get it back a really what it is. It's a show of commitment just as when you're running a mining hardware, right a mining computer. What's your effectively doing is you're wasting energy and you're you're using hardware that can only. Be used for this purpose. That's not the thing that gives bitcoin it's security. It's the thing that demonstrate your commitment to giving bitcoin security that then let's the network know that that you know you are performing the work it's not useful work in the sense of doing something productive, but it is useful work in the sense that we can measure it without having to know who people are and it's much the same thing here. So I with all of that said I, think the more I do. That's the definition of a deliberate burn address, and then there's the not delivered burn addresses, which is every bitcoin address to which you lose the private keys, which becomes a burn address. advertently created some of those. For example. When I did the first example in my and my first book master and Bitcoin. The address that I showed in the first chapter. that. Alice use the by a cup of coffee from Bob's cafe. I managed to misplace the private key for that was generated just for example, I kept most of the other ones but I'm honest misplace that one despite the fact that they will warnings all over the book not to send money to address people have sent I think just over to Bitcoin. by scanning and paying the bulk even had people. contact. Me Rather upsets and said, well, I shouldn't the payments but not only not get any coffee, but also I can't get it back now on a bike you did waht. Foolish peasants. So that's that's something that can happen and you know your bitcoin address can become a burn address you lose the private keys. So then bitcoin gets burned. So what? And and this is the interesting thing that happens. It's an Faq It's a frequently asked question. If more people keep losing keys and the amount of bitcoin locked up in these keys keeps increasing. Is there a point at which this becomes the threat to Bitcoin? And I kind of have to answer to this one. If you think about it from an economics perspective as you reduce the supply of liquid coins, what that does it increases the value of the ones that are actually circulation. So every time someone burns our bitcoin. They essentially distributed as a gift to everybody else who holds bitcoin in proportion to the bitcoin they hold. So every reduction in supply increases the value of the remaining amount by the same proportion as as whatever was burned. That's one answer but there's another more interesting I think long-term answer which is. It's now become apparent that these May eventually not be burned forever, and the reason for that is quantum computing. So there is a possibility that at some point in the next fifteen or twenty. Here's a quantum computer on a commercial scale becomes capable of breaking old EC the essay. And extracting private keys from signatures. So if these bitcoin addresses have been used at least once, which means that a signature exists in the blockchain. Signature could be reverse engineered to produce the private key and not bitcoin could be reentered into circulation. This does not apply to. That early coins because those were never spent multiple once. And it doesn't apply if you don't reuse addresses because you never spent it. When you spend it, it's empty and you never use it again. But if you keep reusing the same address and then lose it or if the burn address, it has spent at least once a quantum computer could break it. Theoretically, you could reach a point where a quantum computer could reverse shot to fifty six although we don't know any good algorithms so that Get the public keys for those addresses and then reverses the private keys at which point all of the coins including. So Toshihisa early coins and anything else that is locked and hasn't been spent and hasn't been migrated to stronger keys in the meantime with be spendable. That point, the reverse gifts happens. So where before every bitcoin that's burned is a gift to the entire rest the supply in proportion. Once it stolen through some computer and brought onto the market that increases the supply, which means it's a bit like what happens when the US government Prints a trillion dollars that increase in supply is a theft through inflation from the value, the purchasing power, all of the money that everybody else has. So if that money enters into circulation, everybody, else's money loses some value in proportion to that because there's a greater supply. So I think the the most up voted question right now is, what do I do if my hardware wallet is lost stolen or damage? Let me see I don't see that right now. because. It has A. I see it now willoughby piggyback on that last question, one more time So another thing that I've heard from a lot of people is a concern that that there may simply not be enough bitcoin to actually use as a functional system, right? Because obviously there are many more people in the world and our Bitcoin, and so there's this idea that you know. While you can't go down you. So there's there's this idea that I might be a concern is that as people continue to lose Bitcoin, it may actually impact the way the system can function, and the simple answer to that is that bitcoin currently is divisible to eight decimal places, and if you break out the math on that and we were to treat every you. Know One. Of those Saito she's which is what the eighth decimal places called as say a dollar actually there's there's enough you could lose many many many when you could lose all but one bitcoin and there would still be enough to use as a functional system but bitcoins visibility is defined software, and so that means is that if for some reason we do. Find ourselves where literally every bitcoin except for one has been lost and we've got it out to eight decimal places and it's still not. You know it's just not enough while there's nothing to say that we can't extend that to sixteen decimal places to thirty two decimal. So whatever number is necessary there is one thing that there is a bit of a wrinkle their because. In order to extend the decimal places, you have to make a backwards incompatible change. The consensus rules probably by introducing a new transaction version number. encodes transactions where the I don't amount of the UT amount field is encoded in more than thirty two bits of data in order to do that. You would need to do a hard fork in order to do a hard fork, you need to get consensus from the vast majority of participants and it would require it is a. Very easy to make in the code a very difficult to make under consensus and an even more difficult change to make if you're trying to preserve. Compatibility in coordinates between all of the parties that will mean to update their software, every library, every piece of hardware, every embedded system that uses bitcoin, every lightning channel that's built on top of it will need to account for these new transaction version numbers. And that is a massive coordination problem which becomes political problem. So it's not as easy as people suggested as although. Another approach to this, which we already see is the lightning network currently uses Milly Satoshi Sattori out three decimal points to that. Now, she quotes a challenge you have to round up to the nearest. But for. Long. Duration Channels not really particularly bad problem. What you can do is you can negotiates to move the balance in order to close it out at the nearest Toshi anyway let's go to the next question since the Fort King has served my role as question moderator. A surplus. ooh. What to do if a hard will wallet is lost stolen or damaged. I think that's a that's a very common question especially among new users of the system. And who wants to explain how hard while work? Well hardware while it's typically are themselves multi Sig. They are the be single key that you sign to send a transaction and believe every commercial hardware wallet. The first thing they make you do is back up your demonic, your your twelve words or twenty four words or whatever inter you like to have. And do something really important with that. And use your hardware wallet not necessarily as your vault in the. Bottom of the bank, but as your spendable thing that you can with that, you use transaction only. And a lot of people actually recommend finally enough that you can use a bank to solve this problem. which is that pneumonic that you have that twelve words you take that you write it or What some people have done, which is actually at Shit into a ten. or or metal or L. Fire or water can't affect it. And then literally by a safety deposit box. In a bank and leave one there or leave multiple in in different retail safety, deposit boxes, and. Should be hardware while device itself break. You have those those those cold-storage backups is one way to go about it. Yeah. So as long as you've kept a copy of your demonic phrase, you have a pass to recovery. Whenever, you get a new wallet of any kind. You should go to a testing process at least that's what I recommend. So you backup your freeze, you send a small amounts of money. Small is relative of course, but some things that will not make you cry if you lose it you send a small amounts of money to that wallet. And then you send it back. From that so that you zero out the balance. Now you're probably GONNA end up spending more on fees than the actual transaction is worth. That's okay. This is a test. Once you've done that you delete the wallet or reset the hardware Wallet Toy Factory Reset or whatever, and then you attend a recovery from them. PNEUMONIC PHRASE. Once you recover from the phrase, we should see in the. In the software part of this wallet is you should see the previous two transactions So recover from in Monaco as not only recovers your keys and funds, it also recovers your transaction history. So you should see the previous two transactions, one coming one outgoing the test. If you do see those now you know the no matter what you can recover from specific mnemonic phrase things get. A bit more complicated. If you make the more complicated if you're not confidence in having a secure location for your mimic as you might have an optional pass freeze now you need to make sure that you can buy competent recover with that as well and that you can back up the optional pass phrase pneumonic phrase in two different places where the not sitting together otherwise is pointless. Lots of hardware wallets come with a pin function, but the pen function isn't necessary for recovery. It simply prevents someone who easily swipes hardware wallet from Your Hotel Room, for example, firm simply turning it on and taking out all the money It prevents it from being tampered with the fairly robust. So if you enter a wrong pin, it just keeps delaying longer and longer and. Longer doubling the delay time every time you fail which is a wonderful lesson in the power of exponential growth because you are very quickly shocked by how long these delays become, and that protects the physical hardware wallet from compromise. But if you have them pneumonic phrase and pass as you need the pin, because that's simply a device protection, not a key protection Let me. With aunt. It's mean an hour and a half since we started this, we're probably going to be able to answer four five more questions. In the meantime I would like to ask that on the chat if you do have the facility to use some of the customer emojis Komo's my channel. Now is the time to call for an EMOJI storm. So, please demonstrates her customer mortgage with an Emoji Storm. If you don't have the costume Oh Jeez, you can use the Youtube emojis and. Identify yourself to the rest of the group someone who is lame. But for those of you have a customer would you try playing with those in the meantime we're going to go to our next question. This is similar. So let's see if we can answer this one. This question comes from Leviathan. I once by thought, it was very, very tasty in the old days before violence became extinct Leviathan is type of sea creature like a kraken. They made very nice. She savita from Leviathan is fantastic delicacy. The fanatics is real privacy possible when using a ledger device considering ledger must surely see your Ip address device data account data through led her live. I like to generalize this question because this is not a question about ledger. If you're using a hardware wallet, there is always a software components and software components can be the manufacturer software wallet components live in this case or in the case of a Treasury will be Tressler Dia. Websites. or it can be a a software wallet of your that Supports Hardware Wallets integration whether that's electron desktop or. Various other systems that do that and Bitcoin, and of course, the same thing applies in other cryptocurrencies like for example, you can use Meta mask with a hardware while it back can or you can use my curto with hard back end. So the bottom line is. Okay, you've got the hard wall then that's protecting your keys but the software, all of the comes with it. The constructs transactions monitors transactions that talks to the hardware wallet. How much of your privacy is that thing leaking? WHO WANTS TO GO? Okay. I actually don't know the answer to this. I'm curious what you have to say. I would say that there are. Two things worth breaking apart here, which is just the difference between privacy and anonymity. anonymity is when people can see what you're doing, but they don't know who you are. and privacy is when people may be able to see what you're doing, but they don't know who is the one doing it. And when it comes to the ledger device contingent upon How you purchase it, they could have the info as to hey, this this person's credit card, and these are all of their transactions and so it's it's very revealing. The thing to note though is if you're getting to the level of privacy or anonymity concerns where you're thinking about your hardware wallet and the Software Painting information to correlate there you then are at the level where you're concerning yourself with how you source crypto to begin with the moment touches an exchange the moment it goes to an honor offramp or touches any sort of bank. and. Then you're really talking about a little of off you station. That's a whole nother world of concern I think the vast majority of people using it and I think that. The crypto currency space itself kind of a disservice when it so strenuously push the suited in many of the space onto. The way that people should perceive it could perceive it because that's sort of a turtles all the way down problem that really comes down to how much of your life do you want to disrupt in order to maintain it And I'm not saying there aren't good solutions, but it comes out being is the wallet really the area where you are most non-private because if you're not even thinking about where you're getting your bitcoin. Than, where you're storing, it is not going to be the place that ends up. Removing your privacy right. So the first thing is that when you bought it on an exchange, the exchange not only tied to your identity through know your customer regulations to that specific. Bitcoin. But then when they Liz druids. They tied it to the address you withdrew to and from then kept tracking it. Now, the way they do this is through a Boston deal which is you know a vampire favorite type of deal and a foster deal is where. They buy a service from a surveillance company but the. Way that they have to buy the services that in order for the surveillance company to send them a score on every address that they want to check for compliance with regulations, they have to send in return to the surveillance company every identifying information that they have on every address that they use, which means the feed, the surreal companies that data the failings companies use the feedback scores to them. Even if they're not trying to score a specific address, they still have to send all of the necessary civilians from permission. So with what happens then is that these surveillance companies sell this information well, pretty much to everybody, and even if they don't sell directly, there's nothing really preventing others firm. Compromising that data buying it secondhand from someone else constructing databases monitoring some of the buyers. Breaking into communication networks and about data leaks. The fair assumption there. The safest option is that that data is in the hands of everyone. Right. So wants collected that data is known to every intelligence agency, every law enforcement, every dictator, every authoritarian, every warlord they get this information and they are able to buy this information either on a direct market or block market. That's your biggest problem for privacy not the wallet to us. Now, if you want to focus on this specific question because you've already sold everything else, you've only bought your Crypto face-to-face anonymously through Bitcoin ATM's wall wearing disguise like Adam down there Then maybe you want to move to this problem, and in that case you can take a number of steps and the the first and most important stuck you take is you run your own node, you run your own bitcoin node because then instead of asking a service, Hey, can you tell me if this address US receives money which of course when you ask that question it identifies that you're interested by your Ip address is interested in this address. And that makes some of your. Instead, what you're doing is you're getting information Ramona every andress onto a local system and only asking that similarly when you construct your transaction broadcasted that if you broadcast through third party, the associated the IP address it came from whereas if you inject it through your own node then it gets propagated through the network and none of the notes can really tell. where it's coming from, it's much harder proposition. So run run your own node and runs wallet software that allows you to connect to your own node to run your hardware wallet, and there's a bunch of those that you can use our time. We must you not run. You're not only must you run your own node but then the next next level of paranoia is to never google search or click on a block explorer link for any transaction involved in any of your addresses because then whoever has your internet logs? We'll obviously know that you were checking address associated with one of your transactions. I was talking to a friend about this was dating a Vegan. And she was like I. Don't know how long this relationship is going to work at a dating this Vegan, you know so much about our relationship is now about as veganism and I'm like, yeah but you're a bitcoin. Life is about money and how you want to use money how ethically you want to make your life about money and he's with you on the the Bitcoin side of it. So maybe you should meet him on the Vegan side of it on A. In concept I just WANNA. Say The veganism is very disgusting topic or empire and I think you're being sensitive enough hair. Jonathan. Bring my. Blood Song Listen I'm a home for which I e Homo Sapiens and. He can stay discussing. Garlic. Gardens. Much more global. When it comes to privacy privacy ends up being a concern of a number of factors but the highest level of it is how much of my life my routines and my ordinary going on or how much literally in terms of minutes day Am I willing to sacrifice or pay in service of trying to achieve this level of hygiene and it really does turn into something where you know the level of effort is you might as well be a Vegan. 'cause it. It could end up controlling your life So pick pick a level of privacy stick to that and Try to evaluate everything consistently because for the vast vast majority of people, it's not GonNa be there ledger wallet that is the the problem when it comes to the level of privacy that they're trying to achieve. And like we've talked about on the show, it's not an all or nothing thing. It's not like binary either private or you're not there's levels of privacy and so you can move up the staircase of privacy by learning. Different, techniques. All right next. Question. yes to crypto. Who you guys don't know, but is a long long time. Participants of this lice strain is asking regarding scaling the having event. Every four years reduces the new supply. Why not also regularly increase block size over time said keeps up with technology. Now you taking these. Recent get on the chat. Well. I. So the the having ventured uses the amount of bitcoin any each. New Block but it has no relationship to the block size but I'm assuming that if you increase the block science, you can then scale the amount of transactions, which is something concerned the really simple answer why not also regularly increase blocksize over time is because there isn't consensus to do. So people kanter agree on how to do as much to do it and went to do it in relation to other Skilling's choices and. Because that debate. Very quickly descended into the politics of who should have the power to make that decision. That created a situation where the forecast by the forecast by. And That gets US sporkes. Yes to Crypto. Do you want for because. That's how you got forks. So Yes. So the bottom line is that technically sure the problem is that this is not technically separate from the politics of it, and this question go boils down to who should make the decision I anticipate that in the long run. Ask other scaling choices are explored whether that's. Layer to solutions like lightning network get developed more, and then Schnorr signatures and other optimizations of the transaction signatures, signature agregation, etc, etc.. We will reach a point where the next logical step would be a modest increase and the underlying block size, which because of all of the other things that have been optimized then gets multiplied to create a much bigger factor than scale. A. Cascade effect right if if you can if you can get ten thousand times, the capacity with lightning networks than the base blockchain and then you double the base blockchain now you can get twenty thousand times more capacity with lightning network. So I do think that might happen. But it's very contentious. All right. Shall we go for another question or do you WanNa keep answering this one of let me let me take this for just one second So the The. Thing about the block size and the thing about this whole sort of political back and forth that happened over at a number of years ago really comes down to what is bitcoin what is it for? What is it supposed to focus on as far as like what is the most important thing if we have to make hard choices in sacrifice things that are not most important, we didn't get to it in the first hour of the show, but there are a number of sort of narratives around bitcoin but two primary ones, and one of those was the idea popular very early on for many of. The early users that the point of Bitcoin was to completely remove middlemen from person to person transactions and to basically take what we were doing with the very early times in in button would, and so she squares where we would meet in person and you know trade basically and to make it so that that could happen for one in the whole world. But the challenge of it is, of course, is that Bitcoin is a decentralized system in decentralized systems are inherently less efficient than centralized systems. It's why it's much easier even today to use something like an exchange versus using something like a Bitcoin for. Certain types of functions like trying to buy bitcoin in the first place that's still a really hard problem, and it's the same problem that we were effectively dealing with way back in the day. So bitcoin as time went on, became much more focused on the long-term sort of reserved like characteristics the store of value proposition rather than the means of exchange proposition and as the world has developed, it's kind of become obvious. We may also get that means of exchange you know through layers on top as have been discussed but that the most important thing is the basically that you can build the the. Medium of exchange use case on top of the store value use case, but you can't really build the store of value use case on top of the medium of exchange use case because they have security implications decentralisation implications simply put the bigger. The blocks get the harder. It is for the network to remain decentralized in the more challenges, the rise from that. So at least in the short term, it seems very unlikely that there will be any sort of meaningful consensus on this, and in fact, this crystallized with as Jonathan said, the fork that then led to bitcoin cash has subsequently forked into several other. Also. Use cases in that is bats. Their entire value proposition is focused on the medium of exchange part of the use case I and hope to get to the store values case from there, but it's not. It doesn't one of those forks and I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the details but don't don't at least some of those have. Increasing blocksize over time or just unlimited blocksize. That's right. Yeah. We haven't followed them closely but broadly speaking, yes they have definitely increased block sizes in various philosophies around what the how that should go forward. Some of them are committed to code but But yeah, that's that's kind of the challenge there is that Bitcoin is has always kind of been this thing where it's like well, it it is. Whatever you think it is. It's also a consensus driven system, which means that it's not whatever you think it is. It's whatever most of the network's thinks it is as far as number participation is concerned and at least right now. The focus very much is on store value, and so the blocks will stay small because it maximizes those characteristics at least for the time being I'm telling you you never really appreciate value until you go to sleep in one, thousand, nine, hundred with your entire retirement account of two thousand dollars combined one or two really nice castles at the time and you wake up and and two, thousand seventeen, and suddenly you can't buy anything with our kind of money you know inflation is really a bitch when you look at it on the scale of a century So let's go the next question here. The next question comes from anonymous is the actual memorable size scary man it's huge walked problems. Could this lead us to a brief explanation before we dive into this question the men pool is the backlog or queue of unconfirmed transactions that are waiting to enter the BITCOIN blockchain. It is not one meme pool there are. On every participant node put them more or less contain the same stuff. It's a decentralized data store sensually and right now the. Size the number of transactions waiting for confirmation is at an all time historic high I think in just passed yesterday the all-time high in two, thousand, seventeen, it's more than nine hundred megabytes. It's more than a in one thousand, nine blocks basically worth of transactions waiting for the next block and what that does is it increases the price at which you get confirmed quickly. So the current I believe average price to get confirmed in the next six blocks is somewhere around three, hundred and fifty. So she's per byte. which is expensive. And is that like the a lot of wallets overestimate the fees in order to just be on the safe side? Is that like? How much of that is driven by wallets behaving that way and how much of it is real and if it's three hundred and fifty at the base price is really three hundred fifty per byte to get confirmed quickly, what are the wallets prompting people to pay and like a lot of people must be doing that because? A dollar terms the value of one of these transactions in like dollar figures somewhere between ten and thirteen dollars per transaction it's. Through the network yeah. The pain ten to thirteen dollars worse. Transaction fees, which is still not bad as an international wire transfer which costs thirty five dollars but. It is pretty shocking Now, it depends on the size of the transaction you're doing just the week ago we had the largest transaction ever recorded on the blockchain one point fifteen. Billion Dollars was sent a eighty eight thousand bitcoin and that went through for transaction fee of three dollars. Or three dollars fifty at the time. So you know if that's what you're sending but if you're trying to do is buy a cup of coffee. which are believed karn. starbucks prices what fifty or sixty dollars How much is a cup of coffee nowadays. Now. I'm just kidding It's probably only three You know paying thirteen dollars per transaction feeds by a cup of coffee the cost three dollars basically, the base blockchain bitcoin is is not suitable for small payments when when the blockchain is as congested as it is now why is congested because we're having a bull run and everybody's excited to get in or get out. and. There's not enough space for everybody to get on this bus so. Yeah, I won't problems could this lead us to mean a lot of new people are coming in is really really crappy wall it's. Exchange Wallets Custodial Wallets Wallich by blockchain dot com formerly known as Blockchain Dot Info, and other wallets that have really really bad fiesta mation. Technologies so they end up overpaying. Even. In a congested as Stephanie was implying three hundred and fifty s while the WHO this telling us the average prices to get into the next block. But. Many while it's overestimate that. And are probably suggesting you know five, six hundred. Socialist per byte as the appropriate to get in. So the best advice I can give you right now is wait. And to tag onto that for anyone who is interested in this topic we actually the next episode of speaking of Bitcoin that we have coming out. I believe it'll be next week since we did alive one this week is explicitly on fees and talks about many of these things in much greater detail than we have time to go into here. But the reality of it is that fees in crypto currency is a very interesting. And Nuance type of system that actually has two modes. It has the mode where blocks aren't full and then it's basically whatever you WanNa to pay, and the miners will take anything that they can get, and then once blocks our full like you have the situation now and it becomes a competitive auction kind of price discovery game which you know on the one hand means that some shenanigans are possible especially possible to front run people They're especially in defy type applications. We've seen this a lot on the therion block chain is that these transactions once they go out there they actually are public even if they're not included in the blockchain yet and then seeing that you can have lots that are set up that take advantage of that and will make a trade right in front of you so that they. Can raise the price a little bit for you and make a little bit of money for them as we see in sort of traditional markets except in traditional markets, typically as like a stock exchange that selling data to a hedge funder something like that. Well, and Crypto, you don't need to be a hedge fund. You can just be a guy who programs about or licenses about. The word hedge means. Yeah, exactly. So So yeah. So like I said if you are interested in this topic, kind of more broadly, I believe that that episode be appearing on the Youtube Channel as well or you can subscribe to speaking of Bitcoin as podcast and that'll be on SOB POD SOB show dot com or lt show dot com depending on where you WANNA go next question I think this is Our final and Andrews. This will be our final question for the day I think we we've run this her about two hours. It's been a lot of fun but we do not rapid off. So final question for the day, and for all of those who did not manage to get one of their questions asked and answered I'm very sorry are questioned meme. Pool is also pretty busy and we we do not charge a fee. We require voting mechanism in order to figure out who we should answer. So that's that's the reason why sorry for that? This is the last question for the day. What is the biggest crypto scam you have fallen four? So let's Hanser this. Let's be honest and vulnerable and and speaking about the actual scams we have fallen for. I. I had the pleasure the honor. The great joy of purchasing my. I think to this day only light coin off of a wonderful exchange called cripsy. And so I thought it was a good idea to take an entire bitcoin. You know this whole this whole silver to gold thing it's an argument but I'm buying it right and I said, let me let me just get just get some light coin and so the only place you could really do it was on currency so I sent them bitcoin into this day. Big Burn. Coin. All right who wants to go next. Stephanie You Wanna I'm still thinking about it. So I was very enthusiastic about many of the early token movements and as far as scams are concerned I, did fall victim to an ACO scam in twenty sixteen or twenty, seventeen I think it was probably two thousand seventeen for a project that I can't even remember the name of it It was basically like a token is gaming platform I was very excited about these concepts and I put in a not small amount of money to it, and then two days later, the project closed and I was like rushing to. Get in because I have been watching it for a while and I was Kinda you know just like so I was rushing to get in I, put it in and then the sale closed and two days later later, project gone website gone completely gone didn't even try many projects out there raise money and then didn't actually deliver on it. This one actually just took my money and then was out the door and I never heard from anything about it again and as far as I can tell nothing ever happened with that project. That's. Unfair, I thought the best game you set money to his butterfly labs. You have at least they gave a partial refund. So. It a long time ago. Someone gave me a paper wallet as a payment for something and it turned out that it was photo shopped and when I went to redeem it, it redeemed for nothing. I was pretty. Mad. Mad. What it was photo shops like, did you like check the public key, but then the private key didn't match or? The private key was different than. Oh. Nice. That's that's so smart. That's a pretty smart scam. Town. All right. I. Know I mentioned earlier. Selling Bitcoin for counterfeit. US dollars. I think about the only time I've ever been scammed. I have made regrettable purchases. And two, thousand, thirteen, I saw coffee. From. Some seller in Colorado who sent me one pound. Of beans and it wasn't even Arabica beans it was robust which is the shit of coffee and I paid five dollars for pound. Sorry five bitcoin five full bitcoin for a pound of coffee at the time I. Think Bitcoin was six. Dollars, each So that five bitcoin was worth about thirty dollars which. Included shipping and handling people and. I also bought some socks. For bitcoin back in two, thousand, thirteen very early. Two, thousand thirteen. So abounded the same level or probably spent maybe two or three bitcoin to buy a pair of socks those are regretted but I haven't actually been scammed. I've never bought into. A cloud mining enterprise or had money stolen from one of my keys or. Bought into I have bought a couple of I guess at the time we'd call them all coins. That have since not gone well, but but they weren't scams they were simply they were good ideas that the the business model simply didn't work out and really small amounts for their. I think we've all been there with like you know, hey, let's see where this goes and sometimes it goes nowhere. I think the biggest scam I participated within my life was I took as much money as I could and put it aside to buy some Bitcoin, and then a month later had to exit my entire position because I had to go to college that semester. And then three months later bitcoin decided to do a forty X. Going to college that semester I think was probably one of scams of my life. Yeah I rent payments in. In July of two, thousand, thirteen where I had to liquidate more than half of my bitcoin in order to pay rent because at this point, I was losing money faster than I ever in my life and I didn't have any income or savings I liquidated half my bitcoin's pay rent and Then over the next couple of months, I spent the rest of my Bitcoin at the time to to send money to my family and and it wasn't. It was like four months later, five months later when it did the big hundred dollar two, thousand dollar jump. And I yeah. I cried. Will you know when we were talking about the burn conversation? I was also thinking of. You know the regrettable purchases that we all might feel that we've made and. You know I think we can make ourselves feel better by thinking that we were contributing to the ecosystem and we were making a contribution to. bitcoin being cryptocurrencies being more useful and something that. People actually use, and that enriches us in the future. I. Think that's a very new way to look at it seventy. Of. Other questions that we're not GONNA have time to get to but I wanNA mention as we wrap that there was one in there that I think has disappeared since that was about basically can blockchain's help with voting and can they help create a stable and secure system for voting in the future? That is one of my favorite topics it is a very fun conversation and it's one that will probably have in about two weeks on the speaking of Bitcoin show. That's going to be the perfect time to talk about elections on the blockchain. As we notice how elections off the blockchain go. Sorry, Jonathan, I was gonNA say I. Think Blockchain's can most certainly help voting, but it's a it's a feature looking for a solution because or problem because I would also say that at least in America voting is feature complete it is designed as it is an intended to be and what you are perceiving as bugs are the design features. So I don't necessarily know blockchain can fix the problem of the philosophy behind whether or not a system has a problem or is feature complete. Well, let's take that compensation up. Before we go. I wanted to. Thank, everybody for joining us today we we ended up with almost four hundred people. Joining our livestream, which is a wonderful turnouts for our Halloween. Special if you're wondering who the other people on this. Little. Grouping here are These are the people I've been doing the. Original let's Talk Bitcoin show Carnegie Hall speaking of Bitcoin, which we've been doing weekly since two, thousand, thirteen since early two, thousand, thirteen. It is the longest running podcast on the topic of Bitcoin but we also talk about to open blockchain's and many other related topics. And so I would like to very quickly say, this is Dr Stephanie Murphy. My. Co Host on the show. This is Jonathan Mo Han and the founder of speaking of bitcoin. down. There is Adam Levine. and. So we really enjoyed doing this show. We normally do audio only and there's a good reason why we do audio only. I spent an hour inherent makeup today and and. Trust me. That's that's a lot of time. So audio is is much much better but we continue to do this show a lot of people who have watched my videos and listened to my work I'm have never heard of this show and that's a real shame. So we're going to do something you know, and this is one of my announcements that I didn't pre-announce which I wanted to tell you a bit about today. As of this join. That we did today I'm going to be featuring a past present and future episodes of speaking of Bitcoin, we might even eventually reach. Catalog or feature episodes from the back catalogue. But for now on, you will be seeing episodes of the original. Let's talk. Bitcoin. Show also known as speaking of Bitcoin on the Youtube. Channel. And also on other platforms including my website so that more people can enjoy these great conversations. There is something special about being able to have these conversations with my three good friends We do have different perspectives on things. And everybody brings a valuable perspective and it has a completely different dynamic from some of the work you've seen me do on video. I love love doing this podcast. We'll keep doing it but now it'd be bringing to you on this channel here. So before we go, please don't forget to subscribe so that you can receive notifications and hit the little bell icon. So you get notified everytime we post a new video which in the future will include episodes of speaking of Bitcoin if you enjoy today's livestream. Consider. Sharing the episodes liking the episode and comment. If you did not enjoy today's episodes I would encourage you to tell the world how crappy at once by sharing it and liking it so that it goes up in the youtube ranking. So everybody can see what Rossen work we do here. Thank you so much for spending the weekend with us. And thank you Adam Stephanie Jonathan so much for joining me. All right everyone.