166: Kevin Barrows | Think Like an FBI Interrogator
Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan harbinger. As always I'm here with my producer, Jason Defillo. I recently took a few courses from expert interrogators and became fascinated with the idea that there are some people who are so good with questions that we as a society rely on their skills to solve crimes prevent catastrophes and get to the truth in a lot of very important often life or death situations today on the show former FBI investigator, Kevin barrows is teaching us the fundamentals of interrogation. He's now a fraud investigator who focuses on large scale, money laundering, and internal investigations for major financial institutions and white collar crime. And what he's teaching us today. Applies as much to those investigations as it does to parenting or managing a business today. Will learn why conducting a successful interview is in? Art, it requires establishing credibility understanding motivation. It employs psychology assesses body language listening skills. The goal is to make the truth. The only option for the. Interviewee and will learn how to create an execute a game plan to get to that truth. Whether it's with our kids, our colleagues, and employees or even our spouse, if you want to know, how he managed to book all these interesting people for the show and manage relationships with hundreds of thousands of people I used systems, and I use tiny habits, and I'm teaching you those systems in tiny habits, and our six-minute networking course, which is free it replaces level one. If you were in that it's updated I got some new stuff in there. And it's on a new server new site. That's over at Jordan. Harbinger dot com, slash course. Are right? Here's Kevin Barros. Thanks for coming on the show, by the way, I've really appreciated the prep really in depth, which I love and one thing that I love about what I've seen here is that conducting a successful interview is an arts. I think a lot of people look at interrogation interviewing as one two separate things and to okay, there's a formula where if you're bouncing you're lying, and none of this stuff is as simple as it seems one hundred percent. You know, I don't ever talk in terms of interrogation. I mean, that's going to an old school share -tective. You know, white hotline. Yeah. It's an interview. And the question is simply, you know, had he approached that process. And it is a it is a process there is an art to it. Everybody's going to different style different technique. But the key to the whole thing really is setting it up properly and not a lot of people. Just don't particularly give much attention to you know, setting up the interview we'll get to that. Because I want to hear about how you set this up because before anything else the right approach seems to be the key. But there's a lot of establishing credibility understanding the motivation behind it. Of course, there's the body language in the listening part that most people like to zoom in on it, and nor everything else. I like the idea that the only option for the interviewee, then becomes the truth. It's almost like you're trying to channel them in a direction, not yank them in a direction, very, very true. And that is something I hadn't thought of before the idea here that I would love to get into later in the show is talking to kids to get them to tell you the truth seems to be very similar to getting someone to admit that they're embezzling. Celing from their own company question and kids are very smart. You know, and they're they're they're prepared. And you have to be good. That was surprising because you think oh kids just gonna go. Did you really do it TIMMY, and they're gonna go fine? But that's not really the case. It is not the case. I mean, everyone kids people they will give you as much as I think, you know, that's the bottom line as much as they think, you know, correct? Okay. Let's let's start from the beginning. The approach the right approach is the key no surprise here. But time place and manner. Guess what rule are these playing here? It really begins with giving yourself the best opportunity to be successful and internet. There's no guarantees, of course. But the best opportunity and time place manner is simply thinking of those things that other people don't think like when is the right time to go speak with this person. How should I approach this person was how are they going to be most receptive? We have an example, if it's a businessman, you may say, look, I can go see them at the office. I can try to see them in the morning before the office, but they're gonna say likely. Well, I figured were. So that might not be the best time. So now you consider we'll maybe at night. Well, if they have kids and a wife, they might eat. You don't wanna do it at six o'clock. Maybe we go sit outside the office. Call and say, hey, as a courtesy, we're not going to come into your place of business. Once you come out and talk with us, so people receptive. Hey, you've done a courtesy for me. I'm gonna come downstairs now and talk to you because you've done the right thing by me. So when you see and as the IRS or something like that, and they're making a big deal out of it. It's like a show where there's twelve officers, and they're all heavily armed, and they walk into the guy's office in the mid in the middle of the Monday rush. That's also deliberate. Right. That's like we want everyone to see that. We're doing our job here. No question. There's times and there's times when that might be necessary there, you know, if there's any element of danger, then he concern for safety. That's always going to be the case. But yes at times again, it really depends on the situation. But at times that's warranted. You wanna show force? Right. You wanna you wanna make this person in people with whom they work. No, hey, we're coming in force for everybody again point, right, right? Like, you're taking out your boss, right? And he doesn't stand a chance. So what chance do you Mr. mailroom who seen all the evidence? That's very you're gonna talk. Absolutely as interesting. I hadn't thought about that. I thought it was more like for the news cameras. Sure. There's an element of that too. I'm sure there's some. Yeah. So approaching somebody at a appropriate time can probably go a long way. I would imagine. Even if I'm guilty as sin. I don't want to be handcuffed in front of my kids. I don't wanna look like a jerk in front of my employees. And so there's an element of reciprocity at play here. Absolutely one hundred percent. I mean, you go into it. And with an open mind typically protocol is to handcuff somebody always for safety's. But if you know if it's called for in the situation, you think it's going to give you some leverage or an opportunity to speak with this person down. On the road. Then he extended courtesy, perhaps don't handcuffing front of his family or friends us, you always handcuff them. But maybe you don't do it right then. And there you say like, we'll do it before we get into car, right? Or just ex when we get into car, but we don't you know in front of your neighbors who don't have that display. Yeah. That's because you see that on TV, right? Is this really necessary? And they're like come on. It's it's it's Mr. Harper. It's fine. You don't have to cuff them to the governor or something. Yeah. It's really usually they usually handcuffed. But there are situations where somebody will ask and you get that sense that, hey, if you don't handcuff me do this courtesy for them. They're going to extend you occurs. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, the thought that's probably unspoken is so if this happens again, and I'm not cooperative this time. Then they're gonna make a big deal out of cuffing me in front of everybody next time to teach me a lesson. So maybe I'll be maybe he'll play ball yet. So one time opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. I think there's probably something to that. Obviously. In your opinion is. There would it just ruin the interview before you get started by sort of mistreating somebody or playing playing the wrong note one hundred percent, I mean, you really can it doesn't even have to be a big gaffe a big mistake. But I think that if you say a few words, you don't establish some degree credibility right away. Person naturally aside says well, you're not worthy of me telling you the truth. I mean, I think there's that process. I'm not saying it's always conscious, but you say you're being disrespected here, you don't know anything about me. So why why should I talk to? And you've got to come up with his game plan. How do you come up with the right approach? How do you know Jordan doesn't want to be handcuffed? Well, that might be common sense. But this guy is going to be handcuffed in front of his friends or this person needs to be treated in a certain way, you know, how do you? How do you create the game plan going into it? You obviously have to know something about them beforehand. Yes. I mean, you don't some of those things you learn when you begin to speak with somebody a lot of that you kind of make an evaluation or determination within the first couple of minutes. Some things can be. Be set up in events. Like, I like to learn as much information through public records social media about a person trying to get a vibe for who they are. And then from there, I say, well, this might be the best time to approach this person. Right. It's a calculated risk. I know they have kids. I know they don't I know he's got acted social if he's gonna be out late on Friday nights psycho Saturday morning, right because they're going to be home over. So those kinds of things atmospherically timing you can try to determine an advanced based upon their lifestyle, you know, to to the best you can determine it. And then it's a matter of setting up. You know, how do I want approach this person the approach is incredibly important by sit down with you. And I am I am accusatory right away. What happens you're gonna get defensive right away. And that's the way it is in life with people. So how do I approach you? How to introduce myself? What are you going to be the most receptive to that's something that you sort of have to make a judgment call? But you want to set that in advance, especially can okay. Yeah. So of course, we don't want to be like, we know you took the money. They. You've been embezzling for twenty years. Right. So obviously we want to avoid that kind of thing which is funny. Because of course, you see that on TV to like, oh, I'm going to turn my chair around and whatever kind of like cop show BS knowing the person gives you that advantage or knowing a little bit about the person. How do you do research them? Or is this something you come up with based on previous arrest? Look what if the person is a corporate executive, and there's no record on this research. He public record searching social media gather. It's always important to gather as much information as you can. And I think you know, as much as it's important to gather formation about a particular case or subject matter or the the the crime that they may or may not have committed. It's as important to get. Background in that kind of a psychological profile the best that you can on the person who is this person. What makes them tick from the outside? Then you have to make a lot of sort of judgments in Kohl's on the fly. What are you looking for from social media? For example. You know, if you're looking at my Instagram or my Twitter feed to see what kind of person, I am what what indicators are you looking for could be anything who you fan of what sports teams do you like that's something? I'm going to try to connect with you about a huge football fan who we're gonna talk about the Super Bowl before knows kinds of things or you know, or your team, you know, what kind of a family men are you where do you vacation? I see the I see that you are you know, in the Grand Canyon last year. I was there two years ago, you know, talking with those kinds of things that helped me connect you using to develop rapport, you're not necessarily looking to see a will Jordan takes a lot of pictures of himself. So he's probably probably a narcissist. Both. Oh, you're looking at that. Two percent good. Yeah. I always I always think. About that. I'm like, I don't want to take a selfie. All these other people. They look ridiculous doing that. No. But those things do tell you something about the person. Right. It's not certainly nothing desposited. But it tells you something about the person every piece of information, you can get before you go and sit down with someone is going to be very important. You mentioned that interviewees are often looking at you or me to determine whether or not I'm worth being honest with them telling the truth. That's an interesting point. I wanted dissection what how do people make those decisions in their head? So respect was kind of the key there. Let me give you an example. Yeah. So I was in the FBI or when I was in FBI with my partner, and I we're looking to find out this the identity of this particular broker this kid named Lou selling stocks, fraudulent stocks all across the state of New York City. So he was really sort of very nefarious in our minds every boiler room, we had gone into we'd found his name. But we never found him. He was always moving one step ahead. So one day I'm sitting in our squad room and my phone ranks. They said haters a guy here who wants to talk to somebody securities fraud. New guys have case that had his name in it. He's he comes up, and he no, oh the heat is walked in to the FBI the FBI to protect. That's why he came in. Okay. So calling up with them. They call us. We taught we sit down with them. It's it's this guy. Lou we've been looking for for longtime. He walks in dust, and he says, look, I'm gonna give you ten minutes. Here. You don't know who I am. I want protection. But I can I can give you a ton of information. But I went to another office and tried to do the same thing. And he didn't know who I was. And I walked right out. You said basically, I said a few choice words got got mocked no idea for how great I am in my also he walked in. He got pissed because the FBI agents didn't have information. They didn't know he wasn't famous enough or infamous enough for him for them. So for me. It was great. You know, we sat down with him. I gave him twenty five minutes of who. He is what stocks he sold and who he sold them to them. What victims he had? And and all the things we had against them. And at the end of that he felt like, hey, these guys have paid me appropriate manner respect, they know what a great criminal. I am. So I can deal with you know, you know, what I'm about. And that to me was really telling. And I think that that's true across the board with interviews. Is it for him? He needed that respect. You definitely have to figure out what these people what the interviewee wants needs. So it's not just that you have to become a subject matter expert in the crime, you have to become an expert in the subject of the interview the witness. That's right. The subject matter of the crime is important. Once a person is interested in talking to you. It's what it's getting the person to wanna talk to you is often the most difficult part. That's where the other information the vital. How do you go about that? How do you become an expert in that particular individual again, it's it's a lot of research here. Hopefully, get to talk to other people who know this. Because research doesn't tell you the whole picture that's often. K we talked to soci- it's friends people who knew him and with the same person, not only that I tell them about the stocks, but I will say, well, let me tell you. Here's who your girlfriend is he and let me get you your friend has a pet monkey. Here's the this is true. Here's the pet monkeys name at the end of that his statement to me was how long have you guys been bugging my phone and you hadn't been bugging? Absolutely not when somebody says that how long have you been following me? How long you've been bugging my phone. You know that you've done your job. Wow. And they're at the point where like, I might as well tell you everything because you know, what that's a that's not just the throwaway statement, though. The last thing you said, I might as well tell you everything because you know, it already that's kind of what you're going for right because you want them to go. There's no point in lying. They know about Jimmy's monkey Dax there's no way they don't know about me having embezzled from my boss for two years day. No this crap. They know everything one hundred percent that is the key as I describe it as putting someone in. And I closed the wall of tight as I can't around him. Wow. Okay. I like that. So we basically give them. Every reason to tell the truth that we could possibly find. Right. And it begins with the premise that people as I said, we'll tell you what they think, you know, and they don't want to tell you a little anymore than that. Right. So when you can explain to people, sometimes it's subtle sometimes specific, depending on the person how much you've done in preparation. How many people you've spoken with you feel like they feel like well, how am I gonna lie? They've always already spoken to twenty five other people. He's read all the documents. He seen my Email. My really going to try to lie now that that's the process sometimes subconsciously sometimes consciously that goes through people's minds. You're listening to the Jordan harbinger show with our guest. Kevin barrows will be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by hostgator. Whether you need an online portfolio for your free lancing gig a hub for your business. A place to archive all of your podcast show notes. There are still plenty of reasons to own your own website in this day and age, I know a lot of people just want to control what shows up first when people Google your name need that Google insurance. And we had chased Hughes. He's a behavior expert behavior. Profiler he was on the show he pointed out when we had him here that people are hard wired to respond to thority. So if your website is one of the first things, they see when they're looking for you online, your credibility, your thority instantly skyrockets and hostgator around since two thousand and two thing. Get your website online easily and affordably today. And that's why we recommend host Gators website builder. Hostgator lets you choose from over a hundred mobile friendly templates. It's gonna look good on that tablet that phone that desktop WordPress is involved you can get pay pal going. They got ESI. Plug ins ninety nine point nine percent up time twenty four seven three sixty five support up to sixty two percent off all packages for new users with a forty five day complete money back guarantee, and you get unlimited Email addresses based on your domains. No more like generic, g mail, hotmail? AOL stuff that stuff looks so unprofessional. Get it from your domain and get it at no extra charge from hostgator. So good, hostgator dot com slash Jordan right now to sign up. That's hostgator dot com slash Jordan. This episode is also sponsored by athletic greens. What's the most important meal? Your day. Traditionalist sim, it's whereby a little breakfast. The rest argue about the merits of lunch over dinner vice versa. Whatever if you're already tough as nails like general mcchrystal, you one meal a day, call it whatever you want, but I use athletic greens in the morning. I skipped the Breck and sometimes get the lunch. It's a supplement source from seventy five whole food ingredients that fuels energy immunity digestion helps manage stress I got plenty of that can use the management. And there it's got essential vitamins and minerals. Prebiotics probiotics digestive enzymes adapted Jin's, and you'd put it all in one scoop. You don't need to worry about. It's got twelve servings of fruits and vegetables, and Tim Ferriss, you know, the four hour body author my, but my boy Tim Ferriss year boy to Jason actually. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's how we met. Absolutely. Yes. No I've worked with him for years, and he turned me onto athletic greens. And I love it every morning with my my little supplements and a little bit of eggs, and you know, Tim is these low carb guy, so I- supplement my carbs within our slow, obviously, obviously with obviously with a little bit of athletic greens. And it turns out great. And I feel fantastic by the middle of the day. I love this stuff to by the middle of the day. You take it at three. But by noon, you're good takes a while to kick in. Well, I have I I like a slow digestion kinda guy. Mark slow metabolism. I got it. All right. What's the deal? We got. For him. If you want to experience the difference that adding if let it greens to your health regime can make go to athletic greens dot com slash Jordan for twenty free travel packs, that's a seventy nine dollars value with your first purchase, that's athletic, greens dot com slash Jordan. And do not miss this deal for twenty free travel packs eighty bucks come on get him. Well, seventy nine. Well. Okay. So I ran ended up. Don't forget we have a worksheet for today's episode. So you can make sure you solidify your understanding of the key takeaways here from Kevin barrows that link is in the show though to Jordan, harbinger dot com slash podcast. Thanks for listening and supporting the show to learn more about our sponsors and get links to all the great discounts. You just heard visit Jordan, harbinger dot com slash deals. If you'd like some tips on how to subscribe to the show, just go to Jordan, harbinger dot com slash subscribe. Now back to our show with Kevin barrows. The other thing you said is interesting as well. They're only going to tell us what they think we already know. So the idea here is to get them to think that we already know everything in the first place. That's right. Okay. So putting the witness in a box of like that. That's a that's like a maybe a slightly more hostile way of me, conducting this particular. I don't wanna put you through. But I want you to go. Well, there's no point in lying because he already read this or there's no point in not going into detail in something because Jordan read the book, which is kind of what I'm going for it. So you wanna tell them all the information? Joe probably in a general sense. What you've already gathered. I guess you don't want to be too specific. Because then they can find something where you might you want them to fill in the gaps. That's so, but they'll fill in the gaps once they realize, well, you know, it all so now I'm just giving you details. It doesn't matter. Right. It really doesn't matter. So you have to be good enough to say, you know, you make sometimes very they said general, I read everything I've seen sometimes it's yeah. I spoke with this person. And they told me these five things read these five sometimes it's more specific it depends on the person one line that I love from from our prep here was if you were me, what would you think about all this always tell it? Tell me why that were telling me one to use that. And why were so I use it somewhat often in interviews because I'll be. Speaking. And I'll say well, did you steal the checks? They'll say, no, well, you were the last one handle checks. Yes. And you were the one that was supposed to deposit in a Bank. Yes. And you remember seeing this chip? Yes. But you didn't still a check. No stop. Now you want to put them switch half with your the investigator. I'm you what do you think that investigator right now what I most tunnel go pretty sure think stolen, when somebody says that that's you're getting towards an admission you're getting them, your sensitized into the fact that they're going to openly say that it just edging your way there, and that's it's really effective because sometimes people say kinda got me that point. I'll really yeah. I mean in your own mind, it's like, I guess doesn't make sense when I'm about to set. And sometimes they'll say it, again, I'll say interesting that doesn't make sense there is it time to sort of confront people. It depends on the person's personality while say, I don't believe you. I think you're nice guy. I don't believe what you're telling you know, what I mean. I think if they're innocent they would say every. Realized this looks really bad. I mean, what is an innocent person do versus a guilty person. Is it a different reaction? It is often person who's innocent. When I say, what would you think they might say? I don't know what I think. But I didn't do it. I, you know, you know, it really depends on the person as to how they'll react. But there is definitely a difference often in how somebody who actually did it. But react versus who did so long. That's scary. Because I'm thinking, oh, what happens if you didn't really do it. There's a way to UT's it out. Elsewhere. Yeah. And that's that's not the end. That's the beginning. Once they say. Yeah. I think it probably looks like stolen, and then we start to dig a little more. Let's rethink now. You sure this didn't happen. Maybe this happened. Maybe you're covering for a friend or that sometimes that sort of just the beginning of that process where I can I can say it off and say, I know you did it you can say, I know, I know it happened already. You're not going to be shocked by anything you tell me I told people that all the time. It's true. Because sometimes I don't want to admit things because I'm afraid it's going to be so shocking to you. You know that kind of thing. So you have to sort of sometimes I'll say to people I've heard it all seemed go. I know this is things that you're gonna say just a matter of you saying, right? So we're looking for confirmation instead of finding out the story for the first time. I just basically saying look we already got the whole we have our idea of how this all went down. We're looking for you to sort of tell us that we're right, right? And this is different than an interview where you're just going out blind and knocking on doors and talking to people, of course, at that point. You're asking questions everybody can be lying to you have. No, no ability to sort of have off check before. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So what about body language, everybody's we talked sort of pre show. Everyone's like, oh, if they bounce their leg they're full of crap off the scratch their face. They're not telling the truth. There's got to be something to that. But I think there's an over emphasis on tells because it's it looks good on TV or it sounds great in a poker match. Sure. In a book, I'm very conscious of tells it's something that I'm very aware of. But I think you're absolutely right. I think there's sort of overemphasis an over reliance on it. But what I do when I start speaking to someone I take baseline in my own mind. So I say, well, I'm going to ask these grumbles where you Hello. Have you lived here and all those kinds of questions, right? What your date of birth or do you have any siblings? And then what I do is from that baseline. I see how you answer those questions when I get to the tougher questions. I see how your baseline changes and that to me can often be the key. So sometimes again, I'll ask a lot of questions right in around. No problem. We get all the way up to would you did your brother doing this? Tell me what do you do? Then it's like a five second pause. Then I'll say stop. I just want you to understand. So I just actually questions. No problem. I just ask you about you. And you took a five-set. I mean, it was like five seconds between you see what I'm thinking. Now that you're either thinking how can I lie to them? Right. I'll talk to people through that process. Sometimes because I know that they thinking through should I just narrate like. Taking a long pause. What do you think about? How can I get around this question? I'll say I noticed that you took a long time to answer that. Now, you didn't take a long time with all the other questions. So that tells me that you're either thinking, how can I lie or how do I say this, you know, so it's sort of I do that often, you know, and there are times when again, yes, tough questions and people start to rub there is like this. And I'll say I noticed that you look like, you're all Shrek out. We had no problems up to this point. Right. So so tells are there is there's something to it. But it's not it's not the end. All right. So the baseline, I think is the concept that most people maybe even if they've heard of it most of those probably haven't even if they've heard of it. They have no idea what that means. Right. Because we think we might even think, oh, I don't need a baseline because this guy known him for a while. But if you haven't seen someone specific context, maybe you don't know somebody who's known me for a while. Michael Jordan's normally really relaxed, but yet now I'm in a room with two cops. Right. I'm still innocent. It's just weird in a room, two cops mind trouble. Of course, I'm going to be nervous. Absolutely true. Yep. So we have to get a baseline every time every time because every situation is different. If I see at a party, you're not gonna talk to me the way we speaking today or the way we speak if it was an interview for from offense. So you have to you know, when you sit down people are going to be nervous. They're talking to an investigator about something. It's uncomfortable. It's very nature. So you take a baseline that at that moment. You sit down through the first five minutes, ten minutes of questioning, and you know, when something goes amiss. Yeah. Man. I I can imagine that innocent guilty alike are not going to be very comfortable in most contexts where they're being interrogated for any reason at all. It's very true. I mean, it is an uncommon. I and like I said, I often tell people look, I I understand it's uncomfortable and try to set their mind at ease, you know, during the process, especially kin, so how do you know, whether to confront them about their change in baseline or two. I mean, is there a reason we might not confront them? It seems like that's a great time to do it. But is there a reason to just kind of let them continually stew in that? Yeah. There are times when you just let them continue to to lie an end like what I do. It really depends on the person I have to kind of get your personality sort of read that type of person you are during the course of the interview. Some people, you know, you if you confront them too early the, you know, you can lose them they can walk out semi talking. So you you don't do that you go through the process. And then maybe I circle back twelve minutes. Fifteen minutes later, I'll go back to a question. I asked you earlier. So now, this is the second time, what's the reaction going to be now, you know, so that sometimes telling and sometimes it changes their behavior change, they they come to realize you didn't believe me the first time, you didn't say it. But you're back asking me the same question. Right. So that means you didn't believe me, you know. So it really depends. It's an it's an instinct thing, it's an experience thing too tells you when you should, you know, drop the hammer and say, hey, I don't believe you. And when he should let it go and circle back and be more gentle identifying the witnesses motivation, we talked about this a little bit earlier. But being that good judge of characters obviously crucial for someone who's an investigator. How do you decide what the witnesses motivation is to cooperate or not? I mean, you mentioned the Larr. Ego. But we didn't really talk about what to do if you would if we find it. This person is clearly narcissist. How do we leverage that? Well, a lot of times it is. I may you may pay the person certain amount of respect. So I'll say, for example, I'd say you thanks for meeting with me. I've seen your podcast, you're tremendous it. What you do? I have to tell you. I think you're absolutely the best in the business. Yeah. That would work on man. It's all it's working. I mean now, and you don't even mean it happening here is right? We're I'm starting to make you feel a k- kind of. I liked this guy. He's okay. He's been guy. I might tell truth to ultimately, I'll give you an example. I was to an investigation is after after the bureau for client on a scheme where a woman in this case, actually, stealing checks herself for third party for a friend outside of a company. So I sat down with her, and I realized just through looking at her history, and you know, employers provide me with her work history that she was just absolutely loved her job. And love the fact that she. Was so well thought of by employer. So I understood in my mind, the thing that's going to get her is not going to be threatening scaring her it's going to be trying to play into the fact that she feels so bad about what she's doing she. She does because she loves her for so openly. I was telling a lot of things let me just say before beginning. Thank you so much for meeting with us heard amazing things about you. You know, at Barbara said that you're one of the best people ever worked at the firm, and I know you're loyal employee. But even looking fleece make mistakes at times doesn't make you bad person. Right. With a lot of people with two forks in a road, you go left or right. Doesn't mean you're you're bad person your whole life. But you take that wrong. You almost said it doesn't mean you're a criminal. But does. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I would say it doesn't make you bad person. Right. That kind of thing. But does it make you criminal actually hold on? Yes. It does. We're we're here already under frankly, I there are people. That's how life is. I mean, there are some people who, you know, one of my cooperators wrote a book called born to steal. This guy was born to steal from the time. He was this big. He was in volved in fraud. There are other people who are good people who make a bad decision and the wrong time. Yes, they're still criminals. Ultimately, right. But there doesn't necessarily mean that they're inherently bad people. That's a good distinction, actually. And do does that affect your approach because it seems like it would have to in some way. But I guess if you're investigating one specific crime if it's a career criminal versus somebody who made a mistake. How does that change things? Well, career criminals can be much more savvy to the system sure to the interview process. So you have to approach it completely differently. Whereas someone who's never really done this before and knows they made a mistake. It's much more inclined to say, yes, you're absolutely right. It was a terrible state that I made I'm not a bad person. They want you to know they're not of efforts. I feel like if I committed a crime that I would feel so bad. I pry would crack in assessment because I would want to tell I would just want to get it over with many people like that. Yeah. I would be the kind of I couldn't go on the run. Of any kind not that I would ever ever ever do anything that would warrant that. But even still I would just be like, you know, what I just arrest me in. And I go through that way. I don't have to stay up at night worrying about one it's going to happen. And the other thing is lying. Remember, it's hard because you have to memorize a script. Yeah. The truth isn't hard. So that's something that, you know, right? There's one typically one truth. There's a lighter very difficult to keep track of a lot of times. I keep going back to the story. And I think my last time you didn't tell your brother was your brother was here this time. Oh, okay. What El- then I go back to the story. Again, this time your brother was your brother there. He wasn't. He was then he wasn't now. He is again. So your almost telling the person, your your credibility is not great right now because your story continues change. And if there's a truth. His surely one story, right? You're listening to the Jordan harbinger show with our guest. Kevin barrows. We'll be right back after this. This episode is sponsored in part by capterra. Remember nine hundred eighty nine probably not remember nineteen ninety nine. Yeah. We're officially twenty years past that. So you're no longer partying like it's nineteen ninety nine. The software us every day at work. Feels like it's not quite ready for y two k time to get little upgrade on go to capterra dot com. Capterra essentially, it's the leading free online resource to help you fund the best software solution for your business like a review website with seven hundred thousand plus reviews of products from real software users. So you can discover everything you need to make an informed decision. Jen's been using this for pretty much everything that we invest in because. Yeah, you know, to getting a twenty dollar program for something for personal use NBD, but getting enterprise level stuff, especially it all of which is on capterra, both personal and enterprise. I mean, some of the stuff gets expensive, and you can choose from more than seven hundred specific categories. Of software from project management to Email marketing to yoga studio management software. Seriously. That's in there in the thing about this is when you're dealing with people who work for you you have to pay per seat. So you wanna be able to check out this software and make sure that it's going to do what it's going to do because you know, you gotta ten person company you're paying for ten licenses. You wanna make sure that it is the thing that you needed to do. So capterra is awesome for going in and seeing how people have been using the software, and if it makes sense for your business because it is all about your business. Yeah. You know? That's something that I didn't think about until I started buying software for the business either. I was like, oh, this is only forty nine oh, wait times three times annual times. Oh my gosh. This is really expensive. It makes you take like a second glance and not just by stuff to test it, please. Visit capterra dot com slash Jordan for free two day to find the right tools to make twenty nine thousand nine the year of your business. Capterra dot com that C A P T E. E R R A dot com slash Jordan. This episode is also sponsored by med men for years. They said it could lead to madness they relegated it to dark rooms and back alleys. They shamed. Those who grew it. They did a stop and frisk on anyone they thought might have it. But now a completely new era has begun. Because of it the new normal is here this month, millions of witnessed its arrival. Have you brought to life through a film directed by the legendary spike Jones stigma is left in the past in a product that once drove good people to the black market is revealed as one that's creating a new global market in this new era a plant that was viewed with fear now represents a source of comb and wellness from this day forward. What inspired the symbol of counter-culture is at long last just culture, doors and mines will be opened all over the country. The new normal has arrived to your city to your neighborhood to the inside. Of your living room. And it's here to stay watch. It now experience the new normal at men dot com. That's MED EMMY, N dot com, madman dot com. Thanks for listening in supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers. Is what keeps us on the air to learn more and get links to all the great discounts. You just heard visit Jordan, harbinger dot com slash deals. And don't forget the worksheet. For today's episode that link is in the show notes at Jordan, harbinger dot com slash podcast. And if you're listening to the show on the overcast player for IOS click that little star next to the episode. It really helps us out now for the conclusion of our episode with Kevin barrows. The idea of the story changing is is sort of near and dear because I had when I was in Serbia ten plus years or fifteen years ago almost now one of the things that the investigate I actually had a their state security officers took me, and my friend in essentially kidnapped us, but it gets if they're cops. I don't know if you can count down it's still it's still the same thing. And one of the things that kept saying, oh, this never happened. Because your story changed and I kept saying, well, wait a minute. What are you talking about? Oh, well, you know, I it was these guys in this. It happened then. And then your story changed, but they they couldn't pinpoint when the story had actually changed which made me think. Yeah. This is just something you say when you're trying to poke holes in someone's credibility, if you don't have a specific example, but you and I talked pre show about testing the person's voracity always throughout the discussion. Can you give me an example that you kind of mentioned the your brother was there? Now, he's not getting. But th there's more to this in this would work with kids. Really while. I would imagine when I sleep with anyone. I'm always testing throughout the whole process. Not just on the critical issue, which is well, did you steal the money? Right. Not that story. But all along for example. I might say I may have spoken with a co employee sometime ago and said, hey, when's the last time you spoke with Jordan they'd say, well, it's about a week ago. We talked about these three things them on speaking to you. I say you speak with this person. No given spoken with went wins last time when when she left two years ago that tells me that look this is something you didn't need to live out rights. None of Cheerios not material to what we're doing. So I'm testing I'm already seeing that you're thinking, well, I better not say this because it might lead to something. So I'm gonna lie right? So I'm already saying your credibility is not great need to begin with. So it doesn't mean that the person's just a liar and a compulsive liar. And they lie about what color shoes they were yesterday in means that in their head they're going. Okay. I got a close off all these little ads writers. Because otherwise, they'll get to the core of my Bs. That's right. A little and sometimes, in example, in a case where there's some sort of sexual assault allegation work work these cases often and the question is it's a he said she said proverbially, right and you speak with the victim. And if it's just two people in a room, the victim could say fifty things happen to make the story that much more horrendous civil side make it more that much more money to write in their case. But victims who say, no who are consistent. No in all. He did was x not x y and z net gives you credibility. You could say anything you can make the story. Unbelievably outrageous, if you're a liar, right? If you're a person who's inclined to lie, but you didn't you kept the story exactly to what you'd said and people in the past. It's you know, it's not good. But it's not horrendous that to me gives you a lot of credibility because there's nobody to say you're liar of the than the accused saying, you're lying about everything. So the fact that you have so much freedom to embellish. But didn't goes to the credibility that look this might be stronger indication that what you're saying is true. Absolutely. That's a good point. Because I think I'm trying to think when I when I was a kid and just BS ING, my parents or my friends or something like that. Sure. What you say is. Oh, well, if I'm going to go in till this bullshit story, I'm gonna lean into it and say, oh there were like fifty there, and I beat up all fifty guys. Right. It's not just. Yeah. I smacked a one guy and ran away. Let let me no one else is gonna prove me otherwise. So I'm just going to go all the way through with this completely. Yeah. Lately. Right and adults do this too. Yeah. That totally makes sense because it's like, well, why not do that? It's going to it's going to maximize the the the dramatic impact of this. And you can't prove it anyway. So I might as well tell you the greatest story will right we've tail. Yeah. Why is it that people who lie about small details are more likely to lie about the larger thing we talked before yet? Maybe they're trying to close off an avenue. Are there? Some people that will lie about every little thing. Because it seems like that's such an obvious way to get caught. If you're just completely BS in the entire time. But remember people again, it always goes back to they'll tell you. They think, you know, they don't think you know, that these little things are lives, and they're not lies in their mind. She had them saying. Yeah. So, but it's a matter of credibility. And when you're assessing whether someone's telling the truth, you comes down through deeply this person was a credible person. And if so where the information you were giving you truthful, that's really what it comes down to. So how would you? And I if we're dealing with kids or friends of ours that we think might be full of it or an employee. How would we test veracity? I mean, it's going to be pretty obvious from like, hey, did you wear jeans yesterday, and we saw them walk into Starbucks yesterday? And they go. Yeah. Why? I mean is kind of a sly way where we can do this. I there is we it has to be within the context of what you're talking about. But it might be. Hey, did you text any friends and tell them you did this or you didn't know I didn't text anybody because he don't think that I know that you text your friend. Right. You deleted it from your side. But didn't realize that I talked to your friend or your friends mother called me. So that's the way in which it's not the big one yet. Right. The big, you know, lie, but it's little things that tell me already you're billing the story. So that I can't get to the truth building these kind of walls around yourself. I can't Bakshi it. And that's what you're doing. It's a game. Right. So I at some point at that point. I may say I may get through the whole interview and go back and say, you know, what you lied to me about that. Because I know I have the text here. So why I believe you about this? Now, you know at ten affective way to confront someone without you know, deserve right answer to that question. They hate you. Lied about the text. Why should I believe you now? Because now, I'm not lying, but I was lying about that other thing because again kids just like, we'll tell you what they think, you know, they only know this. So I'm willing to tell him about this because all this stuff the really bad. I'm tr-. I'm just thinking back to all of the things. I lied about as a kid that I can remember, and I always fell for this. Right. Like, I always it was never just did you leave your Legos out in the basement. There was always it was always like this big web the that was impossible to maintain. Right. And you could repeat it. No. No, no. It's and people were like that. Also, I mean adults. Yeah. Yeah. Man, when you find do you ever find really convincing liars real-life, man. I think this in the you're just shocked when you find out that they were full of it. They've really been able to pull the wool over your eyes in the beginning. I'm not gonna say it's never happen. But it's not often. Usually, you can't always crew of it at the time and can't always confront them about it. But there's many times when I've walked out of interviews said I believe about forty percent. Maybe fifty percent of what this person told me, there's nothing you can do about it. You just don't have that evidence to confront them on. Right. So then you're back to the evidence collection process where you're like, you know, he says that he has nothing to do with the guy who owns the junkyard. We gotta watch him till he meets up with the guy who wants to junk yard, right? Because I know that that just doesn't add up in my mind again, you then at the end you're saying, well, I don't believe him. I couldn't confront them on it. But what's credibility like, well, he had a he had hit a misdemeanor assault charge against him for years ago. He lied to me about. Being married. He was never married to this woman that paint stays higher picture giving people the opportunity to come clean was one of the things we talked about pre show, and I'm just thinking that would definitely work on me because I'd be feeling so much eat. And you're just like, hey, just tell me what happened. I would be like off. Okay. So here's what happened now that I'm now that I've realized that I'm not getting away with this. Here's the whole story. I mean, sometimes I can see it and people were there struggling there's a pause, and there's a I closed, and I'm an I may say something like it's all right to say that you know, what? I mean. I know already you're not there's no shock here. We've heard it. I know what you're about to say you just have to say it's done. And then, you know, what's going to happen is I'm gonna tell your employer that you did the right thing, you came clean, your remorseful. And I'm gonna I'm gonna tell them to do the most they can given that you you did the right thing for that. That's somehow a way to get people to relax a little bit because they're afraid. When I those words come out. They can never come back. You know, what do you think? When you see I don't know if you're able or comfortable commenting on this. But you hear about these politicians that had like a picture taken their buddies got KKK hood on or something like that. And they go. Oh, yeah. That was really that. We shouldn't have done that. And then two days later, they're like, oh that wasn't me. Yeah. You know? I mean, that's so clunky. That's bad. You can't recover from. No your character. That's why again, you know, knee-jerk reactions to questions or lethal because do once it's out there. You know, there's no taken aback to anything that follows is going to be measured against what you said initially. And that's why I go back to I want to be the first interview all you want to be the first enter always if of of that person remaining if it's the I don't ever want. Well, the council announced spoke with this person and an HR now it's your turn once you speak with somebody the first time they build up their defense. And once they build up. Okay. Now, I know where the what they want. On what they want to know. Here's how lied to them. Once that's built up, it's double and triple difficult to to break that. Because now they not only have to come clean, but they still have the myth to have lied to their employer or to HR or to legal counsel that makes the job that much more difficult. That's interesting. Plus they've got a couple of practice runs. Like, oh, I know what questions are going, right? When they ask me about that. I gotta have a good answer for that. And I didn't really and she kinda didn't capitalize on it. Because she's the HR manager not an investigator throw. So. Yeah. When they say didn't you do this your last job? My answer is going to be all I didn't even work there, or like, no, I never had any cash that handled it the last year, and they asked me about Email. So I won't go back to all my emails. I'm going to say this one that asked me about I'm gonna explain this. How I'm gonna tell them. This is why I wrote this 'cause they're going to ask you about that. Right. So the five second pause that they would have had the first time becomes a noble off. Because when I asked emails. Yeah. There was an Email. I remember that Email I wrote that to her because it's already the stories already been set in stone. It makes it. A lot more difficult. That's really interesting. I think any anybody who's really good at spinning a web generally has gone through that line of questioning with somebody. Who is not a good question. I pulled some serious pranks in middle school and stuff like that. And I remember talking with like, the assistant principal who is like did you do it? No. Well, we think you did it. Well, it wasn't just like really amateur lines of questioning, and I thought okay, look in the eye, and really honest and all this Bs, and then when the I don't even know who it was like the school resource officer came in. I had already had this really good dry run with the assistant principal. So when he started early it wasn't it wasn't the school resource. Officer was a regular sort of beat cop. And he said, do you have credit card numbers at home because I use a credit card that I had made up using an algorithm to order pizza for my whole school. Hopefully the statute of limitations up. I think it is good. And and so the the principal asked. Me all these amateur questions. And of course, I was able to pass that. I don't know if she really believe me or not. But then sort of like new new issue on cop who was probably twenty five, but looked older at the time came in and said, do you have internet at home? And I said, yeah. And he goes did you download credit card numbers? And I go no like who's gonna admit this. So of course, I saw that coming and then when the school resource officer came in he asked me those questions, and he was like who've you talked to about this already. And I was like, oh these system principal and then the cop, and he went, okay? So you let me let me turn this up a couple of notches. And then he he got me with some other stuff because he'd first of all I was used to interrogating people. And he was used to kids who are full of crap. Yes. Yeah. Story was already sitting stone. Yeah. Yeah. That that was that was great. So instead of framing this as is a the opportunity to get punished. How do we do this because I think giving someone an opportunity to come clean in a positive way is probably a little bit more effective than saying? I know you're lying. Ted. Me right now, and this'll be easier for you. Well, I think first thing you have to make sure they understand the cover up is going to be worse than the crime. So if you admit to the crime. We're going to deal with it and appropriate way. I'm not going to go. But if you continue a cover up of this crime and lying about as worse than a crime. So you have to make your kids particularly understand that. But employees is the same way. If something happened, we get it out in the open we deal with it. And it's gone, but the continued cover up and lying about it. It's something that can ever be tolerated. Because that reflects terrible credibility right into tells me that you're not a person that can be trusted right people make mistakes, they do stupid things kids, employee's dolts them. But you can't be covering these things out is that one of the rationales behind the law of you can't lie to federal investigators. Because even if they can't prove these certain things, if they can at least prove that you're full of crap on these other counts, and they can still get it is it's it's a federal offense is that any law enforcement officer just federal agents, titled eighteen UC one thousand one lie to a federal agent. Yeah. But what if I just lied to the Troy Michigan police? While that's well, you can still if you lie to police police officer, they have state statutes, of course, that deal with it. In perjury is of course in issue too. If it's under oath of right? Good statute of limitations. That was six grade. I get I I did adventure eventually admitted a bunch of that stuff and just did a bunch of community service at the YMCA. I felt so bad about all that Mike. Yeah. I was that was when I realized I'm not cut out for this crime. Yeah. This is not for me, the straight and narrow then. Yeah. This is I wouldn't. Well, it's not good that far. I mean at the end of the day, I still somehow managed to make money from doing this. I don't know. I'm waiting for the other shoe on doing what I love that that it seems like there's gotta be a catch. Kevin. Thank you so much. This has been really great. Let me say it was my absolute pleasure to meet you to be part of this. And I hope you know, we helped a few people out there. Great big. Thank you to Kevin Barros that guy really interesting in one thing that was kinda cool Jason when he left was he goes, let me know if I can ever help you with anything, especially if you need to find somebody in pretty good of finding people, and I was like that is such a that's a baller way to leave the room. Right. Oh, man. I think I could take him up on that. Definitely let me know if you need to track anyone down like, okay. Little Joey from seventh grade still owes me like four dollars from the that game of marbles. Can you find this guy help get my money back because I'm Italian so with interest that should buy me a house? Yeah. That's right. It's a house in Hoboken at this point. Yeah, there's a there was a lot of things that he was really good at an interesting like I just I love guys who've just sort of seen some some shit, you know, and that like come at this without totally different angle of experience law enforcement cops all those guys are just so interesting to me, and there's a lot of cool stories that some. Are more applicable to show than others. But I'm going down that rabbit hole. Recently have been reading books about all kinds of investigative techniques, which I think are just fascinating if you wanna know how managed to book all of these great guests for the show and manage relationships with a lot of really amazing people over years and years. Well, check out our six minute, networking course. It's free. It's over at Jordan. Harbinger dot com, slash course. And it's designed to take well like six minutes per day. So don't tell me you don't have time to bunch of BS. It's about consistency. It's about habits, and it's free. It's over at Jordan. Harbinger dot com, slash course. Speaking of relationships, tell me your number one takeaway here from Kevin barrows. I'm at Jordan harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. There's a video of this interview on our YouTube channel over at Jordan. Harbinger dot com slash YouTube. And I want to give a special thanks here to will Benedetto who let us use his venue here in New York, the Mondrian Park Avenue hotel down in the boogie room there in the basement of that hotel where this film. And this show is produced in association with podcast one. And this episode was co produced by Jason nothing, but the truth to Philip, oh and Jen harbinger show notes and worksheets by Robert Fogerty. I'm your host Jordan, harbinger the fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful, which should be in every episode. So please share the show with those you love and show the show with those you don't we've got a lot more in the pipeline. A lot of really interesting stuff inside the human condition and very excited to bring that to you. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show. So you can live with you. Listen, and we'll see you next time.