I think this shape is probably one of the best examples of form following function. Ever to exist. It looks like a Beautiful Swan or brand cousy sculpture. Her and that's what I think also captivated my young mind but the minds of so many other people because it looked so different. This is designed matters. Debbie Moma for fifteen years has been talking with designers. There's no other creative people about what they do. How they got to be who they are and what they're thinking about and working on on this episode conversation with Lawrence Azar at about design of the Concord? It was part of the dream of the future. I think coming from an era where we used to think bigger. Here's Debbie I word from our sponsor. Sometimes the best thing about being on the road for business travel is not being on the road at all. Sometimes sometimes hiding away and unwinding in your hotel room is what you need to really get away. That's where I love to stay at AC hotels by mariot the AC Z.. guestroom provides me with everything I need and nothing I don't at has all the purposeful design details that matter. Most there are plentiful outlets. It's inconvenient locations spacious bench for luggage storage an open closet for easy access. The guest rooms are beautiful awful. They're uncluttered and they're truly comfortable letting you live life by design not by default. AC hotels member of Mariot Bonvie the perfectly precise hotel visit AC hotels at a C.. DASH HOTELS DOT COM to learn more not so long ago. If you had a lot of money you could fly from New York to London in about three hours. The aircraft was the concord which it came out of service in two thousand and three the concord failed commercially but it lives on as an object of luxury design. In his book supersonic Sonic Lawrence Azariah explores the look and feel of the iconic airplane and the history of its creation. Lauren's as rat is also a graphic designer. His studio lead design. Specializes in design art direction and branding. And he's here to talk about his career and about the concord Lawrence as read. Welcome to the design matters. Thank you Debbie. Lawrence ran out of school. You got a job as an art director at Warner Brothers records and you worked on the red hot chili peppers birds blockbuster album Calif- occasion which has sold over fifteen million copies. And I understand you designed the cover. But you also sourced wolves for the bayonet we did surveys. Is that like the Green. M&M's thing well yeah obsessively yes exactly Klay. How high will you jump? How far can you go? There is no level of ludicrous. That is enough but will yes. It was a situation. It was the last single that we had done for the Chili peppers. And there was a song called road tripping Anthony. Keita's told me that he wanted a wolf in the middle of the street because instead of us going on the road trip to his area the wolf goes on the road trip to our area and it Kinda manifested through the scenario where I kept trying to composite the wolf in Photoshop and then Kinda try to distort it so it looked Seamless and also make kind of PSYCHEDELIC. But he just kept saying you know it doesn't really look like the wolf is in the street and so it's Los Angeles you could get anything anything and actually the wolves that we got were Wolf's from dancing with wolves The Movie Kevin Costner movie and we shot right in front of where the burden. The museum is now on Grand Avenue with the wolves and we had you know wild animal control and the LAPD on site once the handler gives the no sudden movements women speech before they bring the wolves out of the truck. You kind of freak out a little bit. You See Wolves on TV until you see them in real life when they're higher than your hip hip. They're back so it's kind of this. Is More like a bear or a cougar. This is not like a dog kind of situation so he only did approve one frame name of the contact sheet from the wolf because the wolf look too happy and all of the shots course. Yeah we're GONNA have a happy will know Lawrence you were born in la which Eve said makes you somewhat of a Unicorn. Why is that L.? As a city where people go to to live out their dreams. Everyone one in Los Angeles is from a different place. But growing up in Los Angeles in the seventies it was a really special place and there was a lot of ways. Los Angeles was kind of a little bit of a small town. Lots of little small towns together. I also remember a key. Formative impression of designed for me was the nineteen nineteen eighty-four Olympics and seeing temper susman's Olympic design all over the city. And you're about eleven. I was eleven. Yeah and I didn't know what design was but I knew I liked with that was you've said that L. A. has played a big role in who you are. Today is that because of the Olympics. Well after going Lina College it was home and I. I wanted to come home. For some reason I went to college in San Francisco I went to CCA and at the time. I'm in the nineties. The San Francisco design community was very dense. There was a lot of huge wonderful super talented designers and it just seemed like a good idea data to come back home and I did. And that's where I got the job at on records and everything changed from there now. Was It high school or college that you went to school. Cool with Leonardo di caprio. That was high school we were. We were good buddies and In in our class together and geometry class together and He was hysterical and everybody knew he was super talented. was He's super handsome. Young man well he was little little short or little title as young little little. Just slight small petite. Yeah we used to call them little Leo but I have run into him. Post titanic fame and of course you have grammy It was a high school whether a lot of kind of famous people famous people David Arquette and guy and it was just kind of like this unique kind of Environment Lawrence. Your mom was a a dental hygienist and your dad worked in the aerospace industry was Your Dad who I gave you the scale model kit of the concord no I bought the scale model okay concord because I was I just became fascinated with it and I think a lot of kids the seventies saw it as something unique in different it just looked cool rule and honestly the more I learned about it the more fascinated I got with it when you first came across this phenomena I I think seven or eight years old I had cousins that lived in Washington. DC area conquer woodland at Dulles. It was just kind of it. It was really honestly. I gotta be honest when I was more of a graphic designer young adults that it was just kind of like this thing kind of started unfolding Paying more more attention to it almost as like a early twenties That this this thing is really the thing is really really neat. And then you start to become aware of how cool things like David Bowie and rock and roll and the Glamour and then the story of the concord really kind of unfolded for me. You mentioned that you went to California College of the arts. I believe that you initially went there to study illustration I did. What made you decide to change that to design? Well that's a really wonderful question. Debbie design reaches so many more people and honestly I think it was falling in love with with the use of typography and image and picture and at the time there was a power that I feel like in the in the mid nineties design. Zayn was really coming into a new chapter for for the whole practice and what it meant to be a graphic designer especially a graphic designer in San Francisco so I was able to study with really kind of leaders of the Profession Lucille Analysis and Martin Vanesse key and the idea of Affecting people's lives through design in the retail environments or or through social causes. That light bulb kind of went on for the this is a much deeper reach and yet while you're ecology still spent vast amounts of time tracking down concord memorabilia. Yes yes so what is the the peak number of pieces. You've had over the years there has to be around fifteen hundred. It's it's hard to my wife and I just moved so unfortunately I don't obsessively catalog it. It's it's they're all in cases and it's it's somewhat of a loose collection. I know where everything is and and but I don't have it numbered and filed in archived and there's no Google documents yeah. We we can do that later but my collection really revolves around graphic so being a graphic designer so there's a lot of ads and tickets and Menus so might my collection can pretty much easily fit into a couple of Boxes from the container container store. After you graduated you got your first job as an art director brothers records. You've said that they threw you into the deep end of musical physical education. So why in have yeah laugh to college an asked teachers where would be a good place. Nice to interview. It wasn't like I had a lifelong passion of wanting to work in the music industry. So you get one of the cushy EST entry level level jobs in the world it was like that seen almost famous for the first time he goes backstage kind of revelation of This whole world world and there were so many great bands that were on the label of time. Everyone from Sir mix a lot. It's a soul coughing and it it. Jane's addiction it. It was a really kind of magical time and as a late twenty year old. You're able to be flown to New York to do a photo session and work with Danny clinch clinch. And it was it was just a wonderful experience but more than just the glamour. You've got to work with really wonderful artists and make an impact in culture and ideally other people's lives through. I'm covers and things that mean something to people name. Your top three album covers that that you've designed and then tell us why well Yankee Hotel Foxtrot for Wilco. Because that's just such a phenomenal record. musically musically and it means so much to the fans and The Red Hot Chili Peppers California. That's a big blockbuster Grand Slam that same idea that worldwide that this album cover has touched people's lives or is in their kind of ecosystem and this was based on a dream that one of the band members had is that correct. Yes John Fashanu. He had a dream. W It's important to mention that all these covers manifest over like a year long time. It's not just Kinda like well here. You're three covers on. This is what I think we're GONNA do. You're exploring multiple different directions so with the Chili peppers not to get too far off off track but we were doing this one direction where they all drew blood and then we their own blood and they had a nurse on the photo shoot Draw the blood and then they would combine the blood as if their blood brothers and then we wanted a photographer who specialized in microscopic the logical photography to photograph all their blood together. So I had to find someone in Los Angeles that specialized in photography of Hemoglobin. And and things like that. That's really difficult to actually know. Harry Pearce from Pentagram data project with blood. It's illegal to transport blood unless you have special permits incredibly incredibly difficult to work with. Yes I did find this guy that did three d photography of human tissues. It's amazing these yes ask very opportunities are in the world but yeah the pool thing really came at the end. Anthony was kind of running point on the project he told told me that John for Shanti had this dream. There was a pool. The Sky was in the water. The water was in the sky. And that's really all that he said but then we have to find the perfect pool. and and this is before Google Debbie. It's kind of hard. You know street view Google maps. Oh you would call location companies and they would come with the legal boxes and we ended up being a pool of the parents of some friends of mine that I was in the boy scouts with which was really kind of funny chapters of Your Life Banging together all blurring worlds colliding and then the other record would be The Voyager Golden Record which. We'll talk about it. Lands this Lawrence. I'm assuming you know that fans referred to Bertran Goldberg's Marina City Towers in Chicago as the wilco towers. Yes how cool is that. It's cool. It's it's neat and I was just in Chicago earlier. This year I get a kick out of people taking pictures of that building outside from the same perspective or if view punch up the Hashtag the Yankee Hotel Foxtrot Towers people are capturing that angle so a conic. You've said this about that time. The late nineties. We're kind of the end of that music world. We didn't know we didn't know how good we had it. Flying to New York for lavish photo sessions with great photographers for no name artists. There was just so much more volume they were putting out so many records. How different is it now? Working with artists vists on albums completely different yet. The fundamentals are still the same on the artists that I work with the relationships are deep. And there's a you're in it for a long run so when I work with Wilco. Still or with spalding. You're in it for this long kind kind of relationship of telling this story. And and uncovering the best way to kind of articulate what their music looks like visually on the other hand. Everything's different debbie. The the budgets budgets are gone. The scale is gone. The what's expected to be done for little to no money has completely fleet change and I think that that has manifested in a lot of spheres of design just the capacity to manipulate things digitally Source Images ages from pretty much anywhere. The goalposts have changed a lot and people have kind of expected things a lot quicker easier cheaper in the midst of the music industry slump. You were laid off in a corporate restructuring Rather than look for another job. You decided decided to start your own design firm and finished a lot of the albums that you started and if continued to grow and develop. What made you decide to start? Start Your own firm. At that time. It seemed like the only thing to do. I was midstream on a record with Katie Lang and also I was working on the Yankee Hotel Foxtrot record the restructuring completely blindsided excited me and because I was midstream on all these records we knew layoffs. Were coming but there. Was this kind of confidence while I'm in the middle of these projects. There's no way it I'm GONNA get axed but there was something about working in this discipline that felt like it was my calling like that. I I loved doing it. I couldn't imagine doing anything else. was there ever a moment where you thought this might not be worth it. Absolutely how did you get through. That family I I'm very lucky to be married to a wonderfully supportive. Wife Friends You I think it's important to realize you can't do it alone. There are very depressing moments. That just this is this is bigger than me. The the the end of the industry's Iger than but it's not always true. But it's been said and I believe in it has worked for me that if you do stay on that bus and you do persevere severe with quality and integrity and hard work it will come through on the other side and it did that. Also means you have to adapt and you have to change change and you can't expect things to stay the same and evolve. I did all told. You've designed records for the beach. Boys Elvis Costello Silverton pickup sting. Miles Davis is so so many more discussing records and packaging at large said. That music is an auditory experience. But visuals play an essential role in deepening. It and I'm wondering if you can talk about how you think visuals do that absolutely. It's something that I'm very passionate about now. Especially you know that we live in a world where the listening experience has kind of narrowed into this area of streaming. Visual design is is a key touch point for a lot of things at the music represents and that touch point becomes a signifier socially culturally emotionally for issues of politics race gender. So the way you dress if you're a fan of public enemy or dead Kennedys or if throughout time there's always been kind of a visual component to the the music experience so I saw this as kind of a Charge to pick up and authored. A program called designing the future of music which is manifesting and three things in in education initiative that we're running at the Royal College of Art and California. The arts asking design students to uncover new ways to connect to music through design I'm doing a book with Spencer. Tweedy Jeff Tweety son that explores the recording studios of self recording artists. Like Laurie Anderson and Mac DeMarco and tie Seagal and then we're cure reading an exhibit at the Museum of Design Atlanta on the same subject looking at how fashion and videos and packaging and and alternative reality and the Web Space and this web of components lead to a deeper experience music and it is true. I it separates the listening. But it's part of the listening and people who go to a grateful dead show or a Wagner concert dress a certain way because because it's a continuation of the experience and what it means to them culturally and socially it seems that one of the centerpieces the pieces of your practice now is self generated projects one of which is your voyager golden record project so so you David pests quits and Timothy Daly launch the Voyager Golden Record Project on kickstarter so tell us about the voyager golden record just in general for any listeners that might not be aware of the original what happened and then what made you decide to create. Create this project on kickstarter. Yes it's an incredible story. Involves aliens extraterrestrials. I should say that's the proper term. The voyager golden record is a record. That's that's out in space. It's eleven point five billion miles away. There are two of them. The only human made objects ever to leave the solar system and in nineteen seventy seven seven NASA was sending off these two probes to take pictures of the planets in our solar system. We'd never been close to Saturn or Jupiter or any of moons and Carl Sagan got together a team of thinkers and artists and historians and scientists. And he said if there there are extraterrestrials out there and if they ever come in contact with the spacecraft went into a wonderful thing to include a message from humanity a message from us to the extraterrestrials telling our story story in who we are so they they made a record ethnomusicologist Alan Lomax curated the original record. There's Balkan Beethoven on it and Spectrum of ethnic music on it fifty-five human languages spoken in different greetings around the world and then there are images encoded as data in the record which was a really big deal in nineteen seventy seven Only three companies. That had the capacity to even digitized images. So this whole idea is is is very esoteric. There's a diagram on the cover of the case of the record. It's made out of gold because that's the only material that would last out in space and the diagram kind of some of hieroglyphic and Instruction Action Manual to extraterrestrials of how to play it. That is called the Walberg Diagram and Carl Sagan asked Jimmy Carter The president to do this this and the the idea that they even did it that NASA did it and said Okay you can attach this record spacecraft. It's it's it's not science it's not part of the mission but what it is is it is wonder and it is aw and it kind of captured the imagination interest of millions of people around the world and I I think one of the most poetic parts of the record is the fact that there's no images of war disease or violence on the record. It's this idealistic self portrait. And so it's kind of beaming out there to others are best selfie and kind of something for us to kind of look up to an ideal self portrait so the record never came out on earth. Even Carl Sagan tried to get it produced. Why why was there a resistance to releasing something like this? It's just Terek and record executives said no one wants to listen to this and this is just weird and I'll even attest it's it's not a record that you don't come along yeah you I'm. It's not dinner party music or anything like it's a different type of thing and my partners in the project it was always this kind of idea. We should just put the record Out and that involved licensing all the music and and mounting the kickstarter campaign and and going for it you need nestles approval or the family of have Carl Sagan yes we did everything through all the proper channels Sagan's widow and getting in touch with the rest of the original committee clearing all the rights on the record. It was a tremendous legal challenge. What made you decide to do this? It was the type of thing that we knew. There was an affection action for it was in the public's collective memory but we just didn't know until we tried and went for it And we put it out on kickstarter it just hoping that we would make our costs to produce the record and we ended up breaking kick starters record for their Largest selling music release in the history of the platform that form w it felt like something that should be out there and should be accessible and that it never was accessible. Even Carl Sagan didn't have his own copy from what I understand understand. That's correct well. They they had golden copies of the original record. But I don't know if they can be played on a regular record player you asked for an original goal of one hundred ninety eight thousand dollars and you've got one point four million. Yeah was it enough enough to do. The project was enough to do the project. The project ended up being much harder than anything that we anticipated doing. Why my set? It was like this endless revelation of discovery. How how smart? The original idea was how genius the original idea was and I just kept having moments of kind of these epiphanies like this is so intense in cosmic and intelligent and creative it was it was kind of like one of those treasure. Hunts Hans where you know nobody knew where the original transparencies from the scans were then. We tracked someone down and then we went to jpl and then we found a better. Uh Scans and John lombards addict and you know these these crate. After we spent thousands of dollars scanning the original transparencies and then replacing those and then once I laid out in a book in the order because the images are numbered for the sake of economy printed out the whole book. Full scale but on the those Fedex large-scale along role of kind of the Torah like this long role and I roll unrolled the whole book in one in kind of continuous stream. And then I kind of like. Oh it's in the specific order for the extraterrestrials understand that it's like our earliest miracle systems and our our most basic forms of biology than cell division than Than the young child than our families that an. It's just kind of like this telescoping like this is very much like the powers at ten I've never really John. That connection but it came from this time where people were figuring out how to explain these ideas through design. And I think that that's why the eames film powers attend resonates with people so much much. They they see it in school. They have this vague recollection of it. And that's why I think voyager was and that's why we put it out there record when a grammy for best boxster limited edition package twenty eighteen. Congratulations that's pretty extraordinary. For a project that began a kickstarter. We surprise I spade this reaction. I was surprised by the grammy. I was very surprised by the response from the public. Debbie after after everything. I've gone through in the music industry I've come to learn. You can't count any chickens before they hatch. You can't expect anything to happen. So the fact act that the public accepted and embraced the record. The way they did was it was a huge welcome surprise and and and very heart warming. I onto copies by the way You'll be listening to tonight. That's actually having a party on Saturday. I'll play could and Yes just when the howling wolves start The Grammy's congrats Tyson. Gave you the grandma. Neil degrasse Tyson to give me the grammy. That's when there was kind like butterflies but still because why would they have Neil degrasse Tyson present a grammy category. But it got me in two. Well funny hot water your Haha will not so you don't run fast and loose with your physics astrophysics with Neil degrasse Tyson and that you're Chuck Berry he had died and Chuck Berry is on the voyager golden record so I dedicated the grammy to Chuck Berry who we lost that year but his music lives on forever and I said thirteen point five billion miles away floating in outer space. Yeah yeah and I couldn't see uh-huh Neil or anybody I was. I was facing the audience but I could sense that there was laughter in and And you're kind of in this like car-crash car-crash deer in the headlights thing. But immediately I was able to joke with it and I turned to kneel and I was like I is that right and there was just this plus or minus. I was eleven point. Plus or minus eight off a couple of billion miles. But when you look at the best interest of the universe it really you know what's a couple of billion miles. It's traveling thirty could could you do But that that actually kind of loosens me up and got to enjoy the moment a little bit. I loved watching the voyager documentaries that came up recently and I was struck by the fact that I think voyager-2 has left the solar the system. And it's going to be another forty thousand years before it reaches another celestial body. Yeah it gives you a sense of scale male forty thousand year it it until it gets to our closest celestial neighbor. Isn't that incredible. We are nothing to be. We are the tiny little speck our galaxy as a tiny speck. And and yet we feel so much. We do this. Not My project. Original project yielded the Pale. Blue Dot speech right so which I think is one of the most beautiful statements on who we are and where we are and in considering what whatever you if. You're having a bad news day. Geopolitically socially whatever just punch up the pebble dot because in all of time and all a history every young couple in love every ruler every despot you know trump or can john ill Caesar her or narrow it. It's all in a blink of an eye in the history of the universe. That's not to say that it doesn't matter but it is to to say that we should consider how small the world is and how vast the universe is that we're in and we should treat each other with More kindness and treat the only home that we have with a little more kindness and that that's kind of paraphrasing dot. Speech says astronomy is humbling. Well speaking of blink of an eye last year you released the book supersonic the design and lifestyle. I love the conchords. So your childhood collection has paid off big time As far back as two thousand four people writing about your amazing collection of memorabilia the La Times wrote at the time that you at that point had seven hundred pieces including models stamps menus You said that the most interesting thing in your collection was the brochures from the seventies describing jet culture and lifestyle but the two thousand and four article said the book was forthcoming in two thousand and five. It came out in two thousand nineteen talk about that fifteen year delay. Yes well incredible Debbie. You don't give up. People have told me no one wants to hear about this airplane. This topic is Tunisia. It doesn't make sense. No one's going to buy the book but it was a weird. I think of events that that came to the book finally coming out but there was a long period of working not working on it but I still always believed in the project and still kept working. Hang on it and once it did come out The people that didn't believe in the project were proven very very wrong. You've got a lot of rejection along the way I've got a lot of very warm support in the year that I've been touring the book is more are about the idea of what the airplane represents than just the airplane itself. What do you think it represents it represents doing things differently and ingenuity Luethi and what we can do with determination and creativity an aspiration and it's it's not about an airplane just like the pink knit? Women's March hat isn't just a hat. It's a symbol of our will to do things better and concord. Cord wasn't perfect. It was a very environmentally unfriendly vehicle. But it was an effort to get us to our destination quicker. Her and it was part of this dream of the future. I think coming from an era where we used to think bigger and that we could achieve big things. And I think we're we could use a little bit more of that now and today with the Concord. There is the notion of total design the experience experience was impeccably and obsessively designed from beginning to end. But you've said that the miracle of the concord is that it's revolutionary iconic. Hi Conic design is functional. So can you describe some of the design elements on the plane and what purpose they served and how they became both iconic and entirely functional. At the same time I'm -solutely I think the shape is probably one of the best examples of form following function ever to exist. It looks like a Beautiful Swan or Brancusi sculpture. But and that's what I think also captivated my young mind but the minds of so many other people because it looked so different different. There's a reason why child's paper airplane looks that way because it can dart through the air so perfectly that shape allowed it to be the only plane that could remains supersonic without the use of afterburners supersonic means to go faster than the speed of sound. So the Concorde flew one thousand three hundred fifty eighty miles an hour thirteen hundred miles an hour which is faster than the rotation of the Earth itself so you could get to your destination before you laughed. The fastest transatlantic crossing thing was just seven minutes shy of three hours and at the museum. They have the first plane to cross the Atlantic the spirit of St. Louis. It's thirty three and and a half hours so to see this idea of progress that we can do it better. So that's why it had that needle nose And funnily enough it was. It was a pre digital era and the nose would quite famously droop down because it was an era before computer guided landing and and computer computer screens so the concord came into landing at such a steep pitch that the pilots couldn't see the runway over the pointy nose so they would lower the nose So they could actually see the landing. So that movable knows was was kind of a signature feature The outside side of the plane was this mirror shined whites and it wasn't an aesthetic decision although it was also exceptionally beautiful but the plane Lina at that speed and the altitude created so much heat and friction. That any other paint scheme would get too hot but it was. It was all of these factors coming together to Kinda create this beautiful signature and without getting too much into the dynamics that was also why the wing was shape like this Delta triangle because at that speed the wings needed to be swept back so it could really cut through the air there is some really really legendary concord stories Queen Elizabeth celebrated her birthday on board Phil. Collins flew the Concorde between New York and London to play claim massive shows in both cities on the same day. Is it true that Maya Angelou said when you're there you smile differently. Yes she said. It was a some of of a social circumstance and that you're up there with concord and European quarter and you smile at each other more more frequently more or less. That's what she she said. It became somewhat of a social circumstance. That was a special kind of club. There's a in two edged sword to that. It's fancy and remarkable that you're up there. Were all these super special people but at the same time I I'm I feel kind in a funny about that part of the story. Because the assistant elitist exactly exactly let's just say it and it was as big expensive fast plan for for rich people but that wasn't the intention from the beginning was the intention that we would all be flying super sonically and that's a big part of the story that I think non not a lot of people know that it was. It was the next logical step that we had propeller airplanes and airplanes. Of course we were going to be flying supersonic briskly. There was a kind of cocktail of problems that led to it not being widespread usage but all the airlines had orders for supersonic Twa American united wasn't going to be a big deal. There was the advent of the fuel crisis. Supersonics really came into to idea not long after World War Two. This was a time when people had like cigarettes breakfast. We weren't thinking about drinking fuel like nobody's tomorrow there. There were geo-political challenges That you know. The United States was making our own supersonic that was going to be bigger and faster and then there were the noise noise issues and the next generation of supersonic engineers are still grappling with how can we reduce the impact of the sonic boom so it doesn't disturb people people on the ground so once the noise became a considerable factor than that eliminated. The need for we couldn't fly Concorde over the Land Super Sonically so immediately most of the airline's drop their orders and it went from hundreds of Concorde's to now just fourteen. Fourteen and the concord was built by a cooperation between Britain and France So the two State Airlines Air France and British Airways they got seven seven apiece. And that's when they said well we'll just make it super fabulous and super fast. And that's when they turn to design and that's when you kind of have this life of luxury in the skies but it originally was going to be this extension of the stream of the future you used miles to travel on. You're one trip on the Concorde. Tell us about that. Well who knew you can use your heart of British Airways is some miles. It was my thirtieth birthday and they had announced the end and concord was always like. Someday you'RE GONNA go. But now he was kind of like a jerk. You gotta you gotTa do it and it just. It was kind of like Mike. This is gonNA sound weird but you dream about something for so long in this experience graduation a wedding or something like it was just this. Is it you you walk onto the plane and you just kind of have this and a lot of ways. It was just like being on an airplane but at the same time the it was very exceptional experience And you fly twice the altitude sixty thousand feet so the sky is black. You're at the edge of the trump fear so you can see the curvature of the earth and you can actually really noticed the earthmoving below you and I had flown from Jeff data to Heathrow and it was my birthday and it was the nine. Am flights and then three hours later. It was five o'clock in the evening but I was selling Pacific Time. It was all over before it began but it was pretty great. It lived up to your expectation. Absolutely I know that Andy Warhol are hall stole the cutlery that was designed by Raymond. Lowy every time he flew to Europe on the concord and in encouraged others to do the same. Did you steal anything there was. I brought a Duffel bag of of I was primed to seal seat seeped. Ready to go just taking the experience was gonna be good. He was also like your nine injured. Yeah well I mean there was the We have police outside the studio your metal detector me. There's no I in the the end I just wanted to kind of enjoy it they also ply you with a lot of champagne. So you're Kinda and it was also like nine in the mornings Maybe a Napkin. It all comes out Lawrence thing. I want to talk to you about something. You mentioned earlier. Your designing the future era of music initiatives which have taken shape at the Imperial College London's Global Innovation Designed Program and California College of the Arts Graduate Graphic Design program you created them to spark the development of deeper experiential connections for the music listener of today and tomorrow. So can you give us a bit of an introduction into the programs. We're going to be working with two different clients so to speak sub. Pop records is going to JUMP INTO WANNA and we're we're talking to some rather large concert promoters in England and we're going to share with the students what challenges these these these real companies are faced with but it's really about framing the story of the original problem that we are now experiencing music in a new completely different way who we discover music through utilize music the way we experienced and Sharon engage and our sense sense of value of the music is completely different. So we're asking the students to use their design skills that they're learning and other disciplines How can we enrich deepen experiences of discovery and value and experience and it's interesting and exciting because is music touches on so many different social topics if if you want to talk about politics or race or gender identity or or sorrow or happiness finesse? The there's almost no river of life that music doesn't touch on so there's so many areas for designed to carry that the story forward now. I don't know what the answer is to a deeper experience music. If I did I would be very rich in silicon valley or or someplace like that but at least we've been spending a long time looking at this change in relationship with music and setting up this problem. The students can hopefully apply their skills and talents. In a way that we're not necessarily thinking of Eve said that at its core. The program is about reinforcing the value of design in what way just bringing bringing visual storytelling and visual experience to a forefront of the engagement is is important if you look at the Donald Glover this is America video this was an incredible form of storytelling but also got a lot of people in the country talking about the social and political Issues that he was talking about but also a lot of people talking about innovative filmmaking and really brilliant fashion choices he was making an choreographic choices that he was making gang that they were making him and directors and his all creative team whenever. There's an artist Pushing the envelope in this way. The films that Janelle Monae is making the clothing Esperance's wearing or the opera that she's writing it's exciting to see people go beyond the album cover and different points of engagement and experience where people can connect to the music in a way. That's not fleeting. It's or it's important to say that I'm I'm not anti streaming and I'm not anti technology. Yasmine Bay formerly known as most Steph just released record last month Brooklyn where are the only way to hear. The record was at the art gallery surrounded by the paintings that were created in conjunction with the music and it's it's not anti streaming is just a different type of experience and streaming wonderful too and the fact that you could listen to any song anywhere anytime right here in your pocket is is a wonderful life enhancement but because of that our relationship with music has changed and I'm not making a value judgment. That one is better or worse but I do say that we can enhance our relationship with the music. And the music says and the experience of the music through an explosion explosion of creativity and these other realms. I understand that you're eyeing summer twenty twenty as the launch of the first two week fellowship at CCA's at trajanwealth. That's so if somebody's interested in learning more about this where would you point them. Well it's actually going to coincide with San Francisco Design Week so we we will be doing a couple of public programs that week. A live music workshop with Spencer. Tweedy who I'm doing. The mirror sound book with where people are going to be making art in lifetime to the music that the band is playing. So that's kind of a real exercise in in responsive design in real time dealing some of the most fundamental things that designers have been dealing with for one hundred years like Oscar Fisher Rhythm Pattern and beat and motion and then we're also going to have a concert from some sub pop artists. By more information on the program will be released through. CCA wonderful the Anderson that you also dream of designing the future of Music Institute. Yes well I feel like one or two weeks or even. Three weeks isn't enough to to capture it as our experience with music changes and as design evolves and as technology evolves. I I think if we just keep focusing our attention on this topic it's going to reveal new opportunities and new experiences that are going to exciting enrich people's lives. I really hope so me to Lawrence. My last question is a very important one. It's about the typeface as Buca. I I believe that you once said that this particular typeface could be your alter ego and I'm wondering why well it's clinician and straightforward straight forward but unique at the same time I kinda has a European feeling to it and lots of different weights. It's straightforward straightforward. But also not the regular grotesque sand. Saraf I love that. You took this question seriously thank you oh you yeah. I really appreciate you taking the time to answer that. So thoughtfully Lawrence as thank you so much for making so many beautiful things and thank you for joining me today on Design Matt. Thank you so much you can find out more about Lawrence's work at lead design dot net. This is the fifteenth year. Doing design matters like to thank you for listening. I'd also like to thank AC hotels by Mary. Ann Albert's for their generous support of this podcast. Ask and remember. We can talk about making a difference. We can make a difference a week ago. Debbie Melvin and look forward to talking with you again so if you love this podcast please consider contributing to our brand new patriot. Community members get early access to podcast transcripts of every interview you invitations to live shows. QNA sessions with guests and a brand new annual magazine. You can learn more about this at Patriotair dot com forward slash slash. Debbie Millman if you subscribe to this podcast do apple podcasts. Please read a review or linked to podcast on social. Media design matters is is produced by Curtis Fox productions. The shows recorded the school of Visual Arts Masters and branding program in New York City the first and longest running branding program in the world world the editor in chief of design matters media is Zachary Pettit and the art director. Is Emily Wireless.