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Juliet Hulme & Pauline Parker

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Hello everyone this is Robin Mortar. Host of the true crime podcast. The trail went cold. If you grew up watching the classic television show unsolved mysteries. Then this is the podcast for you. Each week I profile a new unsolved murder or missing persons case and share all the baffling details afterward. I provide my own personal analysis and theories about what might have happened. This is the show for true crime buffs who are fascinated by cold cases and love to discuss them and pick them apart in an attempt to figure out the truth so be sure to check out our podcast to learn about some truly bizarre unsolved mysteries. Where the trail went cold car. This podcast may contain content. That is graphic and disturbing nature listener. Discretion is advised. This is episode four. The story of Pauline Parker and Juliet human Hi and welcome back to women and crime so this week we will be discussing gripping case out of New Zealand from the nineteen fifties. There are few cases that had elicited such an international buzz. And after hearing this case. You'll definitely understand why I'm so before we get started. I just want to tell you why chose this case. So you know our friend. Toby Ball from crime writers on so. Toby does Well let me tell the listeners. Toby Ball is an author of true crime novels and as I said he's one of the hosts on crime writers on and I was a guest on his book club. Podcast called balls deep dive all deep dive. His name's toby. Ball get it. I get it okay. So anyway he is. He is a wonderful person. I met him actually in Chicago at the true crime. Podcast FESTIVAL SO I. I was on his book club. Podcast and the book we read was an Perry in the murder of the century written by Peter. Graham and it was a book that covered the case of Pauline Parker and Juliet. Hume so I I discussed it there and I became so into this case so I wanNA thank toby for introducing me to that book because I never probably would have read it to be honest with you. I don't know if you've ever seen the movie heavenly creatures you know I did see that. Oh No I saw it really longtime ago. Okay it's actually about twenty years one thousand nine hundred four Peter Jackson so I do know a little bit about the story but I don't know the deep dive at all and as we'll talk about a little later at the book obviously is based on true events with. There's a lot that the movie got wrong Always the Yes exactly in. Nineteen fifty four best friend. Juliet and Pauline were just fifteen and sixteen years old respectively and they were very unlikely pair. Juliet came from a very well off family. Her family had recently moved to New Zealand from London. The reason they actually moved to New Zealand was her father. Dr Henry Hume was a prominent nuclear physicist and he got the job as rector of Canterbury University in New Zealand so they moved to New Zealand from London for this very high profile job. They very well off. They lived on a sprawling estate The house even had a name like those really the manners. Yeah exactly as a very fancy house. Her mother Hilda Hume was described as a very social lady. Some say to social what you figure out what that means. She was a very attractive woman. She was part of the marriage council in New Zealand so she did a little work with couples therapy. Okay so I've never heard I was gonna say what's a marriage counselor? Yes okay so. Juliet was described as tall attractive. Smart and confident although you wouldn't know by looking at her because she presented herself with an air of confidence she had a very tumultuous childhood many issues stem from childhood illness so when they lived in London it was during World War. Two and there was some report that said she was. Shell shocked as a child. I often had to take cover her and her family. Oh but what really was problematic for her? In childhood she had a serious bout of tuberculosis and as a child since she was diagnosed with tuberculosis she was actually sent away for many months at a time to warmer weather so she was sent to live in the Caribbean and then she was sent to live in South Africa. She spent a lot of time away from her family. Even when she wasn't ill her family would often send her away to boarding schools so she spent a lot of her childhood away from her family and there was even. I read in the book that I mentioned before. Peter Graham's book at talked about how the mother when Juliet was just five years old in the middle of the night. The mother left Juliet by herself because she went to the doctor with a younger brother. Like it just seemed like there was a lot of Attachment stuff going on. Who did she live with like other family members or Nannies exactly She's be sent live with her and South Africa. She went with a caretaker. I guess we could say a nanny to the Caribbean. So pauline was a bit different. Pauline Parker came from a more modest background so they lived in Christ's Church New Zealand family was working class. Father George was a fish manager. Also known as a fishmonger. Did you know that I did not know yet? And the mother. Nora often referred to as Nora he was. I guess you could say she was a homemaker but they had tenants living in their home because they couldn't afford their house so they had they boarded people there and the mother was There are some accounts that she was abusive. Depressed a lot of issues going on between Pauline and her mother were there other siblings in their home. There were so their first child was stillborn. The families first child the second child born with down syndrome so they had a little bit of a tough family dynamic but they worked really hard. They were an honest. You Know Working Family. Polin also had childhood illness that would greatly influence her as well similar to soon to be best friend. Juliet. She was diagnosed with. Seo My latest which is a painful condition that left her with a permanent limp. It's an issue in the bones. That's very painful okay. She was described as homely. A bit of a misfit. She was short with uncharacteristically short hair for girls at that time and she was often angry described several reports as always having an angry scowl on her face. Her relationship with her parents was reportedly strained. And this relationship would just continue to get worse upon meeting Juliet so the girls. I met when they were both excused from PA class due to their lingering medical condition. So as I mentioned Juliet had issues with breathing. And Pauline had issues with her foot and so they both would sit for hours together and they very quickly bonded. It was said that pauline worshiped Juliet member. Juliette was the one who had a lot of money. She was considered very attractive and she had a lot of confidence. And I guess we could say. Pauline was almost the opposite on every account. The girl spent most of their time at the hume household because that was the sprawling estate they had horses and it was very. It was a really fun place for Pauling. Be Course you WANNA be. When you're you come from a poor home exactly you know the friend. Who has everything yeah? She really revered her. There was a lot of it. Seemed like she really looked up to her and really wanted to be here. She had a huge fondness for Hilda. Juliet's mom she didn't like her own mother so it was here at this a state. They called ALLOM. It was here that they created a fantasy world. These two girls so it was called the Fourth World. They each took on new personas alter egos. They created a secret language and a whole system of encryption. Between the two of them these girls were inseparable they had sleepovers. They took baths together. They did not spend time with anyone but each other for several years. Sounds already like this could be a problem right. I was thinking taking baths together as a little audit fifteen and sixteen but yeah so that comes into play later on so the problem. I began when Juliet. Pauline were threatened with separation so as I said. These girls were inseparable. The parents were not thrilled with this. There was a suspected lesbianism at the time in New Zealand. Lesbianism was acquainted with mental illness in. It was very much frowned upon remember. We're talking about the mid fifty s. So it's quite different than it is today right okay. So the problem started when Juliet. And Pauline were threatened with separation. Henry Hume had resigned from his his positions at Canterbury College. He was forced to resign because they no longer wanted him there. He was a brilliant man however he wasn't very social and in that position they need someone more social than him at the same time they were filing for divorce. Hilda was having an affair with actually a gentleman who was boarding at their estate and Juliet had caught her mother. And this man in bed. But that's neither here nor there but I'm sure traumatizing. Yes so since Henry was going to be leaving England and they were getting a divorce. It was decided that Juliet member she had. She had been ill when she was younger with. Tb Turkey losses. She had another out of it around this time and she. It was hospitalized for several months over it so they decided that she would be sent to live with Henry sister in South Africa because the climate would be beneficial to her health and she was okay with this because she said that's fine. As long as polling comes with me she did not. She was angry at her mom about the affair. Pauline was not happy at home. They kinda saw this as their ticket out. Their final plan was to actually end up in the United States so they just saw this as one stop on their journey together quite so the humes believe that this was going to happen. They were okay with pauling coming or they were at least humoring. The girls Henry leave and said he would pay for Pauline to join however it was. Only if Poland's mom would permit it and polling knew that her mother would never allow this. Ooh Yeah let's see where we're going. Yeah Okay So. The girls believed that coleens hated. Mother was the only obstacle to their future happiness. Everything was all figured out for them but they they had to think about. How are we going to get this obstacle out of the way and the humes just out of curiosity? The father wasn't just saying this that they were seriously going to their mixed reports by some reports. It's we're just humoring the girls because we knew there was they were so obsessed with each other and inseparable. So it was like yeah. She'll be able to come. I'll even pay okay but you know so. It's hard to know but they thought the girl at the very least. The girls were sure that this was going to happen. So what did they do? The girls formed a plan to murder. Paulina's mother in order to remove. Obviously this one obstacle that would get in their way so there long-term plan was go to South Africa as planned to live with Henry sister and then head to the United States where they believe they would publish their writings and work in film or they some sort of literature gurus or mentioned they had something called the fourth world they were into this imaginer universe. They spent all of their time writing about this. Pauline was very much into journaling and this will come up later and trial sheet journal just about everything. These two girls did talking about their fantasy. Life's together talking about their plans for the future in all sorts of the way. And let me guess those journals are GonNa come back to haunt her trial they will and I'll be reading. A few of the excerpts from this. Ooh and Juliet had journals to so it wasn't just pauline. So let's jump to what actually happened so they executed their plan. When I say I'M GONNA wait 'til trial to explain to you how we know. It was a plan but it was very much premeditated understood. June twenty second nineteen fifty four. They invited Hanoora again. Is Pauline mom to join them on a walk through Victoria Park? After a few minutes of walking down a wooded path. Juliet walked ahead again. This is all according to a very Scripted plan okay. Juliet Walk Ahead. Dropped the stone and then called over to have a look one. Her Nora bent down to pick up the stone or to take a look at what was going on. Pauline took a brick that was wrapped in a stocking and did one quick blow to Pauline head. Wow did the one blow do it. Well this is where things didn't go as planned. Because we know that the girls hope that it was just one quick blow and they were planning on making it look like she had a fall and she had hit her head and they were going to put her down an embankment however one quick blow did not do it so polling hit her a few more times unfortunately. Hooray had several defensive wounds. That will show that. She fought back quite hard at some point. Juliette took over and started beating her and then at another point. It went back to pauline with Juliet holding the mother down. Oh it ended up that she had over forty seven wounds. Some of those. They weren't all bludgeoned. There were about twenty that were from the brick within there was other from other fighting so Harare fought back. It took several hits and they had to hold her down and finally she succumbed to her injuries. The girls were bloodsoaked and hysterical. They ran for help exclaiming that there had been a terrible accident. Whoever did not take really long for the truth to emerge. They ran to a tea shop to get help because that was closest to where they were and they were just splattered in blood. It didn't fit with their story that this woman had hit her head in fallen. And then when I guess it was the two people that worked at the teashop when they came to the aid of It was very clear by looking at her. That something more sinister had happened right. She looked like she had just undergone attack and these two girls are covered in blood. So probably as you're saying it I'm thinking this looks already very suspect. And not only were. They covered in blood. They were giggling and their affect. Didn't really match what had happened. So they had called Henry Hume to pick up the girls because obviously at this point. They don't know exactly what happened. They just know points. Mother has suffered an accident and within a day or so it becomes very clear. It starts by pauline confessing and the girls to cheat the police. The police knew something was going on pretty quickly. And then pauline confessed and then when Juliet polling confess. She confessed as well because it was a sink or swim. It was the kind of relationship where we're going down together. We're going to do this so both girls confessed to the crime. How long had these girls so you said in the beginning that we're fifteen and sixteen? Do you know how long they had been sort of friends or at like how long from the time they met until the time they executed this plan. was at a year or two It was a couple of years. Okay yeah because they had met in high school okay so it had to have been a couple. It was one of those relationship that moved really fast very quickly. Okay also at one point. I told you how Juliet was hospitalized. For TB and Pauline was the only one there for her Juliet's parents had abandoned her again. There was so pauline. It's interesting. Pauline looked up to Juliet at the beginning and then almost became that. Pauline was the caretaker for you know. They almost switched roles because she didn't have that support at home and polling became you know all she had to so. I WANNA skip ahead trial because it was an actual media frenzy. Oh I can imagine. Yeah so besides the fact that you know. It's a upper class area. Unlikely Suspects Henry Hume had a very high profile position and there was a lot of interesting arguments that would be brought up at trial. And that's why I want to spend more time so the main question here was worthy girls insane so the defense was trying to argue that they should be not guilty by reason of insanity and they argued that the girl suffered from a rare disorder called. Fola do have you ever heard of filet. Do I actually have not never okay so and I think I'm even saying it right so it's a French word. Maybe I was GONNA say maybe. Maybe I don't know good so so. It's a shared delusional disorder or a mutually reinforcing paranoia between two people. Okay wait I've heard of sorry so I have heard of shared delusional disorder. And I swear. This came up in the slender man case. You're absolutely right okay. Yes oh I think that's a perfect example of this okay with the two girls. Yes sharing this delusion. I just hadn't heard the I guess the front. Yeah so actually L. A. Not so confidential. Our friends at that podcast. They just whole episode recently on Filet Ado and they talk about that case along with this case so they even helped me understand it even more understood it because you know since I did study friends. Ecology. This came up a lot but I just want to talk a little bit more about what it is and whether or not there was evidence of this shared delusional disorder so we could really manifest in two ways so either you have a dominant person in a relationship who forms a delusion and imposes their delusion on the other person situation. Where since Juliet was like the more powerful one at some point that she would have a delusion and pauline since she worshiped Juliet she would take on almost believe anything that she said and that was also by the way the exact case management. Exactly exactly so I understand that one but the other one which is very rare is when two people suffer psychosis independent of each other like birds of a feather flock together. I guess I'll use like to people suffering from psychosis kind of find each other. Exactly it's it's like you think there's aliens out to kill you and I think there's aliens out to kill me. Were best friends okay. So I think that's how that goes. I'M GONNA assume they're Shaw. Oh No I'M NOT GONNA ASSUME WHICH. Which are they trying to qualify under? They actually from what from what I could find. They were not. I mean there was a lot of expert testimony. It seems from what I read. It looks like it was the first one okay but it could be argued who was the more dominant one. That's really a subjective call because as I mentioned at some point their role seemed to have reverse a little bit okay after Juliet got that second bout of tuberculosis. It almost seems that pauline was the one who was in the higher position. Okay but either way. I don't actually believe any of this was at play. I just think were preoccupied with ideas of power. I think they rejected morality. I think it's possible that they had a personality disorder antisocial narcissistic. And it's very clear that they were aware of what they were doing and it was very much premeditated as I'd like to talk about now. Do you think we'll get to this? But do you think also? We should discuss the fact of their ages. And how I don't know if you're GONNA get to that at all but yeah yeah. They might have been premeditated they might have been planned. They might not have been psychotic but we also know that you know seventeen ish. Are they making the same kind of rational decisions? A thirty year old makes that conversation is definitely one. We're going to have when we talk about their sentence. Okay because it becomes very relevant so I want to read a few entries from the diary because they were instrumental at trial as I said. Pauline kept a diary and the police were able to very quickly. Get this diary however after this happened that night. Hilda hume asked her what did what did they call it then. Groundskeeper to burn all of Juliet's journals so think she had a feeling that these journals would be incriminating and they got burned pretty quickly so we don't know much of what was in Juliet's journals but we have all pauline mom might not have been there for in the past but shirts no she did so some of the extracts of the diary were read in court. So from the trial transcript. We have a little better. I saw I just wanted to remind you. The murder happens in June so February so four months prior pauline writes. Why could mother not die? Dozens of people. Thousands of people are dying every day. So why not mother and father to cry so she started talking about weight so she says her father too so even if they kill her mother did they were not worried than they thought if the mother was gone farther would act yes exactly. They thought she would be the problem. Okay Yep then in April. Of course there's thousands of diary entries but we're just picking out one set talk most of the case and then in April. She says anger against my mother has boiled up inside of me. It is she who is one of the main obstacles in my path. Suddenly a means of ridding myself of the obstacle occurred to me so in April the wheels start turning okay right so at the end of April a few days later she says I did not tell Deborrah. The boar was her pet name for Juliet So remember I said they. Each had like five different names at different times. You know what I remember this from the movie you do so I did not tell the borough of my plants wherever moving mother the last fate I wished to meet is one in a borstal. Not sure what that means is one of their made up thing okay. I'm trying to think of some way. I wanted to appear either a natural or accidental death. Okay so she starts thinking about this and she tells her girlfriend Juliet or deborrah about this and it seems like she's on board but this is bad because this shows that she was also the originator of the plan. It does it does and we'll talk about whether or not her punishment was any different so the crime occurred on June twenty third so we have dire entries leading up to the crime that are quite telling so four days before the crime. She says we practically finished our books referring to the novels that the girls were writing the other. Children are both very interesting and our main Ike for the day was to monitor mother Moyer. They didn't say murder they said motor. Okay that's just me having a weird speech to for me. I'm actually glad to clarify okay. She goes on to say the notion is not a new ones but this time it is a definite plan that we intend to carry out. We have worked it out carefully and are both thrilled with the idea. Naturally we feel a trifle nervous but the pleasure of anticipation is great. So they're excited. They're very excited. And there were reports the days leading up to the murder. The humes report never seen Juliette Happier. There were also some reports that pauline was in high spirits as well the next day we discussed our plans for motoring mother and made them a little clearer even though I have no qualms of conscious or is it peculiar that we are so mad so earlier in her journal she talked about how the girls decided together that they were both mad. Another word for insane right not mad as an angry two days before the murder we have decided to use a brick and stocking rather than a sandbag. We discuss the motor fully. I feel keyed up as if I was planning a surprise party so next time I write in the diary mother will be dead. How odd yet. How pleasing like we're talking like hold blooded murderer here it sounds I also I. I'm like it's very utilitarian. Their crime right. They see her as the obstacles doing it just to get rid of her but now it seems like they're getting an exhilaration almost like the yoga. Me Railing Yeah like a Thrill. Kill which is very different. So those two. That's their entirely. Different is my point. That's why this case is so interesting because there are so many theories that can help us understand right and after I researched this case. I'm definitely using this as a case. Study in theory class because we have biological sociological psychological. It's everything right. It really teach our INTRO CLASS. Theories this is this is a good case. Study it really is so the day before the murder. I am writing a little of this up in the morning before the death. I feel very excited and the night before Christmas. I did not have pleasant dreams though. So what else was brought up at trial. Obviously the diary entries were very big bolts. Is You the diary entries to bolster their points? Which is interesting. The girl sexuality became a huge focus of this case. Not only was it a focus at trial because again homosexuality was equated with insanity the media had a field day with this is this. Do you think I'm sure it was a big issue and I understand? Do you think this was also. Was it like an attempt to like dirty up a dirty them up kind of. It's not just about the murder but it's about their kind of you know you've heard it like those filthy perverted newly okay. For example one media outlet that headline was dirty minded girls? The other one was homosexuality and murder. Exactly what you're talking about. So it's all about the salaciousness of their sexuality. Yep exactly okay. Although to this day nobody knows if they ever were engaged. A sexual relationship. But we'll explore that a little more. When I talk about what happened spoke. It was widely reported that the girls were unaffected and even disrespectful at trial. Did Not show remorse. They were put together prior to trial. They were house together in jail. Which is very something you don't see at least not in our country. I don't know how things are New Zealand current day but they were kept together prior to trial and they were tried together. We know oftentimes that happened. I was going to ask if they are. Do they turn on each other? Nope interesting They did not okay so the girls not surprisingly the girls were convicted of murder August. Twenty Eighth Nineteen fifty four. They were found sane and guilty so guilty of what was it like. They're guilty of premeditated murder. They were guilty of murder. Yeah okay they were guilty and in New Zealand at the time. There was a minimum of ten years. It was considered a life sentence but in New Zealand at the time a life sentence carried a minimum of ten years however the girls of course they were very young. They were too young to be considered for the death penalty. Okay so that's what I was GONNA ask. So because of their age the way New Zealand did it is that they were to be detained at Her Majesty's pleasure so in practice. This sentence meant that they were to be detained at the discretion of the Minister of Justice. What isn't that interesting? It was just an indeterminate. Sentencing that's it so her majesty is kind of like this is that like. I mean it's almost essentially one person aboard exactly. Isn't that interesting? So one person parole board and you want to guess how long they serve before being released at Her Majesty's pleasure but so was it a minimum of ten years. You said would have would have been but okay. So that's my question. Is it a minimum of ten years or at Her Majesty's pleasure so it's a minimum of ten years if they weren't children the fact that they were children if he came at Her Majesty's pleasure. Sorry it's a little confusing because it's quite different from our system. No that's different John. Nineteen fifty four determine. Everyone was more indeterminate into rehabilitation and more focused on children being children. I'M GONNA guess that they served five years. Yes so they were house separately totally different facility. I was going to be my next question. They were not allowed to communicate although there are some reports that they were writing letters via other inmates at the facilities. I have a more interesting question. I'm going to say five years. They're both released my questions going to be and I don't know if I'm jumping the gun you can tell me. Did they. Wind up finding each other. After did these to wind up together or did they go their own ways. Everyone including myself a shock that they've never had they're both still live to this day and we'll talk about where they are now. They never had any contact with each other again. The only speculation is that they wrote letters during their time incarcerated but as part of their so pauline was released and she had to be on probation for she had a term of probation where Juliette was just released without any any probation part of their terms of release was that they could not contact each other and by all accounts they never contacted each other. Wow okay based on what we know about their relationship. I was really surprised by that. I'm surprised by that too but you often see when especially when kids teenagers commit these crimes and they're so crazy in love they need to be together once. I've spent a couple of years in prison. It's all of a sudden what I'm not sure what I was thinking and now I'm at grown out of it. Yeah it seems like that might have been what happened okay. So after being released from prison again they're quite young there around a year. They have a whole life ahead of them here. So there's a lot to talk about. Because they were released in mid seventies and here we are in two thousand nineteen so what has been going on with these two women sense so after being released from prison. Humor turned to England Juliet. She became a flight attendant. I do WANNA point out that. They both changed their names. Upon release makes sense that the case was notorious. Yep but from what I read. The government gave them new identities. Isn't that interesting weird So how witness protection? It sounds like a right now. So let's talk about Juliet I okay. Juliet Hume returned to England. Became a flight attendant for period. She lives in the United States as a nanny flying under the radar. Nobody knows who any who these women are. At this point she changed her name. She reinvented herself as an Perry. Which we'll talk a little bit more about the significance of that name in a minute. But she was a nanny for quite a few years. She became very involved in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Some say is because they have such a strong focus on forgiveness but possibly it's unknown Pauline again now. Hillary also became quite religious. She later settled in a Scottish village. The most interesting thing is she became an Perry K. Do you know who and Perry is. Is that name sound familiar to Nope. Okay so remember. We talked about the movie heavenly creatures came out in one thousand nine hundred four. Yes until this movie. Nobody knew where Juliet. And Pauline one. There was no media attention when they were released. It was kept quiet and they gave new names. Nobody knew where these women were for twenty years. It's like everyone forgot about them. Movie heavenly creatures comes out. It's a hit. International hit journalists start poking around. Who are these women so they find? Juliet Hume Juliet. Hume is now living as an Perry and Perry is an internationally known New York Times bestselling author of crime fiction and Perry. Do you know the author Anne Perry. I just can't think you're telling me. She assume he's Ryan over fifty novels. Wait you still it. She's actually an Perry now. That's what I mean. He's saying she's soon this name. I'm sorry she's a famous novelist. Stop it Yes. Oh an Perry anyone who reads crime novels. It's also known as like detective fiction historical murder mystery. She has over fifty novels countless number of short stories. They've received critical acclaim. Huge success. Over twenty million books are in print worldwide. That's unbelievable that's the best part of the story. I know that's why I waited. Oh My Gosh. Wow so in. Nineteen ninety-four what happens is someone does the digging. And they find out they trace. Who held a human is and they find through records that she has a daughter who now is an Perry because Amb Perry is still in touch with her hume family. So got it. So a journalist calls up and Perry's agent. She has a literary agent because she's like a huge time internationally bestselling author. They're like Hey Do you know an Perry is actually Juliet Hume. And she's like what so she calls and says hey? This reporter called me and said and and owned up to it. She said who she was and she did talk to the media and a few interviews. She shows no remorse. Luigi somewhat throws pauline under the bus in the sense that I felt like I had to it seems she felt like she had to do it because it was either. Pauline was going to kill herself or her mother was GonNa go. She doesn't talk very much about it but she. She gives the impression someone asks if she was remorseful and she said well. I didn't really know honourable very well. Certainly that's not That's not remorseful for partaking. Not it almost seems like. She's totally disassociated herself right that whole. I mean she's living a whole nother life like I said she's very well off so she lives in a small so she spent a lot of time in California and then she settled in a small Scottish village. And she's still publishes like crazy and okay Member brother that we mentioned from when she was younger brother now works for how things like doing transcription. She's still doing her thing she also. There's a documentary on prime. But it was about like writing not anything about this case so pauline again now Liz. As Hillary Nathan she lives at very different life and Perry is in the public eye like. I said she's doing all. She is writing a lot and getting noticed all the time as a critically acclaimed author. Hillary lives a quiet life. She was a librarian and she now runs. I believe some sort of horse farm. She never spoke to the public. The only time anyone had any information on her one her sister spoke to the media and told the media that her that her sister who was once. Pauline has little contact with the outside world. She's a devout Roman Catholic and spends much of her days in prayer. Ironically her and pauline both live in Scotland. They're only about ten or eleven hours apart but zero contact. Do you know if either one of them ever went on to marry or have children. Oh no they both remained single. An Perry in an interview said that the girls relationship was not homosexual in any way and apparently was dating here and there. She does live with a woman. Apparently it's the best friend who's also I think her agent but you know they're speculation all the time of course So yeah they both. They both remain childless not married throughout their whole lifetimes. They're both in their eighties. Now it's GonNa say they must be old now. They're in their eighties. So so that's the case. As I mentioned the book by Peter. Graham is so comprehensive and gives more detail than I can ever cover here so definitely check out the book. If you're interested clearly feel like I will so I just want to talk about mattress side for a minute? Okay because it is so rare it is like less than one percent of all murders are am sorry. Mattress is killing. One's mother right correct so when you look at. The statistics around the mattress is not only is it. Rare eighty two percent of all Mafra sides. People Act alone and two thirds are carried out by adult son. It's typically after there's repeated abuse so it this case is so interesting because it's the crime is so rare and then plus you have both girls and we have all these theories that can help us understand right. Was there pathology. Neither girl was ever diagnosed with anything that is that doesn't mean there was no disorder but there's biological psychological sociological explanations. That can help us understand this case. But it's still so difficult to wrap your head around especially being that these girls never spoke again after that right. It does sound to me. I have to say it. Sounds like they had elements of shared psychosis. I couldn't be sure because of their age because I think they probably did. I wouldn't have given these girl's life in prison. I mean I think that would have been too harsh at the time considering their age and the possibility of this mental illness and the stigma around homosexuality but certainly it was brutal and violence. I'm pretty sure five years wasn't enough for this either. I'm going to have to agree with that. I to feel like we cannot sentence children. The I do think they could have done more to maybe rehabilitate the girls. That sounds like neither. One of them was remorseful. They never took ownership for what they did. They put them in jail. As far as I understand it was an adult facility. I think they could have used a little more coaching. Five years is bridges. I mean this woman was brutally attacked. Oh no and it was premeditated I certainly agree with you. I think it's a vicious again. This is New Zealand. What would have happened in America? They probably won't try them as adults. Interesting Pauline is lower class. Juliet was very well. Her father was very well established. So it's interesting to look at the class differences and well in America than they probably would have different outcomes. Because that's what I'm saying but they also would have been given the time they still wouldn't have received sentences they would now because as you and I teach in our classes in the nineteen sixties and seventies there's folks rehabilitation indeterminate. Sentencing whereas now it's much harsher and children are tried as adults and they receive very adult sentences but you know. New Jersey recently passed. Juveniles cannot receive life without parole anymore. So at least we're heading in the right direction I die. Oh that we're in a progressive state. Really interesting case. Amy Thank you Meghan and thank you so much for listening to my case this week. Thank you everyone. And that's it for us. We'll see you next time by women. Crime is written and hosted by Megan. Saxon Amy Schlossberg. Our producer and editor is James Varga. Our music is composed by desert media. If you enjoy the show even get access to add. Free episodes exclusive Ami's and other bonus content for small monkey contribution through Patriot to find out more visit patriotic dot com slash women and

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