Rock's Backpages Ep. 68: Paul Gorman on Malcolm McLaren + RIP Bill Withers & Hal Wilner
The welcome back pages podcast. Name's Bonny Hunt. I'm here or at least somewhere in cyberspace my colleagues Mark Pringle. I bought a unjust. A Mersenne Bowie. Hello Bonnie also hair. Whatever exactly hey a mainstay with our special guest whole Goldman welcome pull champs? Howley very isolated. Well after trouble technically. I think what's the where but it's lobby you. Zoom sort of celebrity squares green. Thank you blank. Thanks for joining us. We'll be talking to you about your career on about. You'll new Malcolm mccaren biography just to say before we get into the aren't really there. It is on saying it on my screen. We just wanted to say that the very sad news about bill withers hyman too late. Lost Week a difference to discuss it in the podcast featured on the home page will be talking about the leg right bill with us We will also be talking about to mole. Great Musicians who we've lost to the current IVARS. How willna briefly about Joan Pine and we'll be talking about all. A new library highlight spots when mainly going to be talking with talk about whole so welcome gain pull you being a good friend to Rox by pages for almost twenty years indeed we launched Rox back pages on sign not the evil launching. Your book appropriately about the music. Press Their Reut. So thank you for being on all these years. Tell us where you started as comedic writer as a journalist well I'm not really easy riser. Nor my journalists gale if I may anything on trade journalists business journalists and that's what my training was. I was a feral child left home and school when I was seventeen and looks around the bitch. London in mid to late seventies then through a series of circumstances. I ended up. 'cause again I could do right. That's the only thing I knew through Texas show but go into. I ended up as a trainee journalist. Thomson's business press. They also points at that time if they felt food swine virgo and I became a trainee. Hack on a paper called Meet Trades Journal Start Again. Being Journal and so. This was the only magazine I could get a job on. I was really not bucket about where we were and it finds it. Set me aren't really great store because I work with really fantastic. People who Pretty Hairy Austin Houghton hacks reached St Bunch of guys and I was very young. I was eighteen as I say I was quite Farrell. And they don't give me and they look to me and so I became a Saab. You know it was a down tight loose. So I went to the princes in Chelmsford every week. I knew about costing all out stops and cow. Gombe that whole world letcher said an anonymous. They had for four or five years I think but meanwhile I'm leaving this other life it funded. He was very well paid as well for young man. Funded this other life. Where dodged my interests in music and fashion adult singing clubbing? And all of that stuff really just that. That's all EBI interesting. And so they were very supportive family to me and they told me law really a law on the first day of work I was given by the Great Derek Chapman. Saudi gone away now so further fields a set of forty press releases and. He said he won't say fifty. Nibs News in brief and I had to cold every single person on the press. Release on each press release and get a quote. That wasn't in the press release and so it had to be standalone. It had to be objective and it. Didn't you know we were anti You know celebrating. Anything was really told a very critical Rica an objective quite skeptical former journalism which appears through gone now and so some twenty three hour one the PPA campaigning feature of the year presented by Tina Brown at a survey Dorchester Hotel campaign e Patriot. The eight because I exposed Practices in the food industry fantails it then recruited by the trade publishes and then by the end of the eighties. I started working for screen international in Los Angeles as the West Coast Bureau. Chief how did you get out GIG toe? I just went for a Kmart and Sanjay's presented? I've seen I've been to Los Angeles before and this job came up Germany. Uk Press Gazette's. That's really the Bible. So you got that every we. Can you comb through there for jobs? But I at that point I had a job on another food. Piper had a company call expenses really good salary and I've been to La a bit. Because I had some family there so this job came up inside. I moved to Los Angeles Work. Basically reporting on the film business from Damn when I came back I became a freelance. So that's twenty years ago. I've been a freelancer Manon. It's very interesting. Because in discussions with all music rights against the real division between like the guys who came through the underground press and so on so forth who went straight into writing about music under slightly older generation. Who did what you did. I mean in that case usually work in the local paper whatever it is but they would learn the trade of journalism. I heard by Hawass talk about cruel sneak. Logan came out that way. Yup Charlie Murray but in fact I look back on it now. This you know rewriting in the ride is operatives at you could really tell the journalists. Who'd had some training against those? Who hadn't great indulgence which we really fed into kids show but at the same time it does lack Rica and Charlie Murray's work really stands up even for owl's Yudo even for Another type cream. I think it really stands out. Because he's done a couple of years. I think at least hall journalism. Is that right if I move out? So I kind of gravitated so those people but at the same time I studied the enemy when I was twelve in the summer of Nineteen seventy-two and next you'll to me in Hendon in the fat next door leaves Nick Z. Oven Guitarist think withdrawing sources Rocco who remember them Ted Revival bags and he went to the Wembley rockabilly festival when the great support for Elvis played as well as strange as so the MC Fides. Backing hines Kerry gritter Roy Wood with deputy strange assortment is right so this was very exciting to me because this was just a couple of miles worlds both top run. Also it was in the first underground hyper. I vote which was friend yesterday which published by so by the time I kind of come out of the Walsh of the trade press or dissolved over this stuff and I was reading. Ratisaka's went on and so I then chose to writes about water. I wanted to write about. That was going to be suspended the next question. How did you get into right you you? You've not you've chosen to Rice. When I came back to freelancing I got cake is editor at large. We music industries again by industry thing. 'cause I was always fascinated in is it comes out in my word by the people behind the scenes so the manages so I went on the road with you too but I showed Paul McGuinness. I gave me the blogs in the bay area. I was far more interested in this guy could walk around Prague a full Omi browns in Prague in the three pace tweed suit in the height of summer and they it was like a military campaign that saw that which was the pulse toll which is ninety six point five zero and they would have two hundred people with them and they pick up two hundred people every three days in a new vendor and he was like local candidate in control. This massive thing that fascinates me four more unafraid to say some blow playing the same three chords that I keep although of course due to bury interview with the spice girls again is Jim. Yes it was a business piece. It's a great piece about how thank you? They put themselves together in this house in maidenhead they will shed. This house in. They conceptualize this idea of the spice girls. They want going to be a gold group. The old will similar closer or going to have their own identities in Salt Turell personalities. That's really interesting and you still a virgin records. Signed them after the. Yeah Actually Newton and so. It's very much economies it week. Piece role than say an enemy piece for the piece to the which was when I was in. La It needs to be with McLaren ammo gallon but the first year. The I mean if I'd known that you've been driving around Los Angeles in the company call more respect you pitch basis to me. Mojo has cost the first on years. Just this Goldman Jot Patriot in pieces. It sounded interesting one of them. We see that was the thing was the they would never about per se music. If you say what you have is about the culture around it so one of the first pieces. You Commission was about the rise of ozone tendency of magazines. Benny's heads maximum rocker world also exposure hosted by favorite one. Which was I killed robot. Chris cow with big fucking Dick. I'd go sir. I didn't have to because I was bloom. Bring up to and what was that piece about. It was a title of a magazine Shape magazine that you mentioned McLaren. Just I mean how. What was this piece that you wrote about McLaren He was pitching at the time. This was towards the end of his time in Hollywood and he was there for a long time. He was there for five six years in which time he made the Great Wolfsthal album and did all the stuff. He was never a single tram person but he was pitching holds a film bio-pic all pizza ground. Yes and also another one a companion and the Patriots one was really a bow routes serve the music business in rock and roll in criminal. Yeah and he was pitching the Brian Epstein by Paik which was about the dock sexual undertones of the meat which had kind of in a occurrence in the time. Yes Week on. Because I've met him when I was fifteen in the mid seventies and I'd seen him around and then we don't because you know we Anglos in let you know what it's like Balmy new content. I never went that thing. Bang INTO CRICKET. Same drinking the token documents applying football pitch. Exactly you're trying to play some of those guys. You must have done very funny. I mean you've written a lot of books and you've also created a real niche yourself as this expert cure rights consultant on areas of fashion and style particularly in London. So you have a kind of unique niche in pop culture in congratulations through life and so we come to your your New China the life and Times of Malcolm McLaren. So was this was mccaren. A subject Been on your mind for a while to us about genesis of the project. I always had a fascination those people who arrived the underappreciated missing surpluses and it kind of world by practice with me 'cause I r Bayliss by about my fourth or fifth bull. That's ready board on doing so. Look my first book was really about the Lansky brothers. Those generation in Jewish clothing retailers. Who Sold Elvis the look of rock and roll on bail straight? Yeah on bail street and so that all about you know talk about those people who I think had been under a patient of if I go through the woods. They in their on right really wanted to celebrate paper like caroline coup who really dedicated the counter cultural energy. She and experienced resource that she'd put together in the sixties to the melody maker. Who's really without her? I think the coverage of would have been quite different so there and you know there were people like nick. Kent who left celebrate in those days then true. The body bubbles book my book about the Design Entrepreneur Tommy Roper the artist. So it's always been the but McCarron was kind of a big figure in because I do think that he's misunderstood and I saw that he needed contextualising. In a wider sense than present company excepted music journalists had tended to approach him before because they didn't particularly like him he could wind people up. There seems to be a strand of white male music journalist to really took again him? I think that he suffered from being pigeonholed in a particular way. Whereas if I may say I understood through the prism of a written a lot about design and Terry and the white a sort of counter culture as well I understood much more is that creature and I thought it was Tyne Commission sixty years ago. It took six years to write in between all this other stuff that I've been doing understood understood the it. Was Tom Brady to re position. No in a sort of aggrandizing way but kind of say this is why I think this person is important near. You might also understand it. I mean you you speak for me among Alba's in the I did. I never met him by founding. Pretty of not just an incredibly suggesting is eight. You never met with the received the essential on how he was incredibly our good. I'm pretty obnoxious Yet so brilliant in his way unimportant and all of that but not someone that I would ever really wanted to hang out with now. Listening to the sub. The old Joe Interview is with mccaren. This week is don't toy speaking to him in nineteen knowing and actually I warmed to him a bit more. Listening to. He's making these great. Not Make Pronouncements on on the music can district on pop culture. Actually he's a little more charming and endearing than he was at the high of his kind of pistols. Infamy shall we just head the first of the clinics moat? This is actually quite late on an interview. He talks about becoming an artist and he still makes the statements in this here but actually being a manager is as autistic. Anything else who cares. What did you become an is just so because you just felt that there was another nobody that I sell? It was more into tiny ultimate. Because I wasn't it was just I came out of the closet thing that you know. It was by default. The I ended up. Managing groups of wasn't really a manager was more of a Sean litter legal hands but the reality seve. Nia someone else. I never forget Richard Branson for that surge man. I understand why that group is salaries Harry find themselves in grrrrrreat. Thanks this Hammerstein. Because plot is Richard Branson would be managed except for the Management Malcolm because he doesn't live in reality. Tv lives in his own immortal. Well nine Richard Dolly name me one. Oh dogs see the point. I mean he's choice to talk further about the Audio Bonnie. That's just returned to holes mission in a sense to reposition Malcolm Macara. I mean did you like him. I mean it sounds to me like you say understood in POPs. You did like him. More than than all this enormously. I liked him a lot. I found him very generous at encouraging presence in he was incredibly funny. He was also quite childlike in his own. Way Alan Moore who wrote the introduction to my book who put together script for fashion days not made film in the Eighties. Talks about this mccaren sensory. Once the he didn't believe it. He caught himself Shawn Watson but he didn't believe anybody would take him seriously because charlatan doesn't reveal themselves. You shall Albertson DOPP themselves. The embezzler agree is very strange. Thanks sorry I love that phrase. I figures Shawl But he had the heart and the vision of analyses. He was eight eight years at all schools. It's been severely rewritten. That audit his history. Because he studied all history he went to the classes. Remember once I met Robin Scott Nan. Who at Croydon school with him and he said yet he was forever rushing selection's not live the rest of around smoking. It was very very interesting and some of his postcards from the south of France in nineteen sixty eight. They really reveal his interest in older he talks about Lombardi. The the most peaceful talks about Indian films that being showing the living theater and so he was this. A creditor be sponged like creature who absorbs every type of creative expression. They churned it out own as well. As to what extent think that our agreement image was cultivated by him as a character as much as it. Was you know because I mean he does? Have the image for me looking back without. You know having been there as it were. It does seem in the popular conception least from the musical perspective as you were saying to be that kind of arrogant guy but do you think. He cultivated that himself to an extent. I think he adult teeth varies. Besotted if you look at his background he had a very very difficult upbringing I mean you wonder about David Bowie. Sometimes as well in the relationship with the mother and stuff like that and how he you know. It's really weird things to do. He's not just show. He's kind of inhabiting custodian highs knee until he almost crashes himself as the theme. Why Juge I think McCarron was of a similar car in the adult stage. Various different personae to really defend himself because he was the abandoned Woes that basically abused child by his grandmother. I'M NOT EXCUSING THEM. Not Say hey. The didn't get enough loves JOHN SO ARMEE BOSTON. What I'm saying is I think explains he built his carapace around himself which eventually started to crumble as he came to terms with himself in the noughties and at bats for me when he breaks his greatest artworks the final film installations. Were you know retail? We've great admiration on the international circuit that were collected. You know he was definitely realizing he's created patient in multiple phases thrilling thing that he did that. You disapprove of Holy. I mean I think it's a very misguided things the eighteen this with those patriots. Wells churning out ideas all the time I happen to be at Chelsea college all the Dave. The news broke of his death. Ten years yesterday and in the company was make Jones of the clash in Bay. Id and he said that's really sad. Because all those days have gone wound EPA hair more. His legs ideas where the good battle in different. So I think he made several miscalculations. I think frames so a not nurturing John Lydon and looking after he much preferred sid vicious. In fact as you'll see in my book he really tried to save seeds. He was on the first rights in Iran. He organized bail. Went around these lawyers including Royko. Why Nash He met hit. You know he went to hippie lawyers recommended by Allen Ginsberg but you know things like chicken got a magazine. Full young teenage pop fans were kind of on the money in that it was a parallel way much. Ag Smash hit. Yes the idea. The ad she had was a great marketing idea was the cassettes with the thing because they gave him ability that whole thing about piracy and you know the consumer making the choice is not being directed by corporations and so he wanted to feature the cassette as a covenant and then fell music three news agents and Garo tribe. What our Jamie. But then of course he fucks it up by only chicken going on about cold for Cape Yep emended July it is just an I think also in the wake of the pistols. He made a lot of bad choices because I think he had the crisis I think if you look at most of them in most of the band became a heroin addict and alcoholic kind. Price isn't one of the problems. Whom though is that as a manager and I know that being a manager of bonds is only a small part of who he was but his NBC looking for people who he could affect you manipulate and really wasn't tolerance of personalities. These bands could actually challenge in any way. I think his his answers. That would be you know. Do you want to get on the Boston Garden for Roy? Don't show John Lydon. Do you want to remain a herbert great guy fantastic but you want to remain a her but teaching dissing challenge disadvantaged kids you know in some. Would you want to become elite So he wasn't credibly knife but with that came undoubtedly a lack of empathy. I think that's one of the things that we see about it. But he always said the and it sounds pretentious harsh but he always said the visuals thing and if people got hurt then so be it. I mean I'm not saying he's a nice guy because there wasn't a nice part saying that he's on that on the power with them but I think the he enabled for more people's any her show you the exit. You furnished us with so I kindly. Yes it's actually just a a fossilizing will snap show. I mean I'm not I I can't. I thought an alert so much I've not. I've not read read interested in literature so this little window into what happened before line than even came on the scene. It's very interesting. I didn't know about this David. Harrison Guy. He was briefly considered to be a possible late singer full Coochie Jones and the sex pistols. Nine hundred seventy five. And it's everything. That's sort of rumbling. Around in Malcolm's head before liden comes on the scene pistols. Come together properly. I found fascinating. Yeah Yeah David. Somebody wrote a post something about on instagram. And somebody is low. The people obsessed with that period of Pumpkins. They know everything and I'm not quite but it was like oh it must be scientific in being obscured shit about that. He's one of our great British autism representative exhorted near account fees. He's own person defined by that mobile and so but it's interesting is needed. The Malcolm recognized something Indicate from a short year later with the most of the back. Sean Difficulty Wade Chrissie. Hi Dave rat scabies and so he gets habit and you read about encounters vic from subway. Say Net retiring at a GIG. He said you guys should be in the band. He paid for their rehearsal. Et scabies at a pink fairies Gig at Daewoo's and said. Hey you're really good drama. And so then the next day he and Chrissie went round visited. So there's this constant And I think misinterpreted but basically the generosity about you don't see many facilitation or would yeah my only time. I can remember being in the same room as him. This when the pistols played mile because Chelsea art school in Nineteen seventy five and they played in November five and it was kind of pretty small crowd and Johnny. Rotten telling us we will too old even those is exactly ones. I also may turn around and even though a posse shopper. I've never seen the lower. You'd never hung out inevitably the robot pub for example day. That's what I meant. I didn't have time anyway. I remember this guy by the mixing desk just not looking at the bond studying the audience. He was just constantly from looking to see how we were reacting which was another helping of. Yeah the next guy she this is this is. He's now this is ninety. Nine percents is John Toba. He's talking very much about the music business as it stood in nineteen eighty nine and he's talking about how the artists were becoming indistinguishable from the air arm and heard sign them. Listen the two for a new office to exist in that kind of processed. He has to fit in very well. And isn't that so process. You get a very pragmatic simple artists. Who really doesn't look any different from the guy signing him. He behaves the same. He has similar tastes. They often play with play cricket together. They've both got mortgages and live next door. It's one giant dreadful boring happy family. I love that because he's actually absolutely right when you think of when she takes take about when it was nine thousand nine hundred ninety nine absolutely on the money that was great music coming out so Manchester Obesity. It was acid house happening. But it wasn't being controlled by the major labels what it Hanso needs to take appro- words go west the Old Kentucky who were exactly like the people who saw in in La at she wants the money out of that and then just retired at the age of twenty years but they were they were exactly what McLaren's talking about. I think. Yeah exactly what I thought was just really interesting on a personal level is that that disillusioning. Hartley led McLaren to discover a bit shipton about this. He wrote a piece. About how eight bit was the new punk a wired magazine exhaust. He's actually the one that I just happened upon an such before recording. This and I just thought that was fascinating because that is so left field from what you might expect someone in his position to go after because it's not his generation and not his scene and not his technology but it did somehow want to find something that was new to him. I think. That's kind of remarkable in itself. Because I mean Tipton is much maligned much but there is something to it where it is a a rebellion against pro tools. High quality recording against based sort of glitzier glamorous pulp thing. That's right he said when he met musicians what most impressively was wearing a t show. We said FROG PRO to compete. But if you think about McLaren in the context of Hippo when he goes to draw river house projects and sees Africa Bam bartering goes Okay so Michael Home. He takes him that puts together review. They support by while that becomes these neat thing. You think about his ethnic music food is that somebody's was one of those papers. But he's investigations into what will become But most potent the now his acceptance and understanding that the ballroom scene of New York at the mid to late eighties would actually be one of the most powerful music's Abou- gender fluidity and identity politics which are among the ruling. You know the issues of Zeisler. He saw that he saw that. Justice must be syncing this into the one thing he really gets wrong. Is He predicts. He's very optimistic about Europe and very optimistic about Britain's relations basically because the Channel tunnel who was just being built at the time since few Ryan he's says everyone's goats down through the Channel Tunnel and not want to come back to their jobs in England are now that they do. I did a bar the mid nineties there was that whole business about being pro. Your guests know that book about the face and as those issues which it comes from. Nick Logan's EXPENSI- so looking towards your Roth American. No I think that's right. But it's also the viewpoint of a metropolitan statistical it fails to arrest the country's life so listening to that in the light of what's happened last with live with sinus. Oh it's quite interesting. You say because he was he was chambered equipment optimistic about the year. There was another piece the he talks about in the mid nineties. I think he was really infused because he was back from. La I'm interested to know when that nine hundred ninety nine recording made exactly when Jones made it because Oskarshamn and I couldn't get an exact date and he doesn't know come out the the well the album he. He doesn't talk about any product to such toll. He wasn't but he was supposed to be promoting would stoning but in fats. What he was trying to do was find his father. Oh rarely founds in August nine thousand nine hundred nine at-bats another key thing to understanding. Mclaren is the. They've been separated for forty two years and so he'd never have to follow the figure he'd been the indulged in those damn rejected. You know how bad is really cool shit? Then but then. He finds his father in choice to form a relationship within and so by the mid nineties is very much changes anyway. So it's a it's a great interview. We're GONNA play clip at the end which I shall love where he talks about. How the Renault God's I mean in terms of popular culture their gods anymore. The seems impossible. Another Elvis or whoever turn as always. I'm as you say social However much bullshit bluster he can go. They'll just record truce. Draw the loss what he talks about. Trump's campus. I'm sure it's fascinating read. Who are looking for your life and times of Malcolm mccaren published this week by constable on Robens. So don't rush out and get it but Russia being delivered our goal him. Where do we order it from? Well high it is very good if you don't WanNA use Amazon. It's available there. The kindle is available today across across the world but you know I'd check out local bookshelf yet and see if I still with us whether they deliver us. Agreement is spot on on. Trust the great stuff. We always say at this point pool. Is You probably stick around in this case? I'm saying please don't leave zoom meeting. We're GONNA move on to talk about some people that we've lost and Wilson talk about highlights among the New Library. Just pitch in whenever you when the spirit moves you my friend. Okay this. We're GONNA talk about bill with. I mean no sooner. Had We finished recording the KOSS waking we learn the beloved bill had pasta right not the results of the Koran of ours Complications he was eighty one. I mean he was old look him up when he came into the game. I re watched the still bill documentary. The nights that he died and he says exactly the same thing he's already. He was thirty one when he released his first record Australia but he said he. Even he was in his old working. Stiffle is life. He knew about all of that sort of thing. I've just love him. I'm a huge fan. I thought it was very interesting. The when John Mentioned John Prime briefly in a minute but when he died when bill his died the response of my American facebook friends and my British facebook friends my British face friends. Yes would not join. Prime's death but absolutely more on the wizards even if this hadn't made records since nineteen eighty six and the Americans would exact tops. They worshiping John Summarize it I mean. I think that people don't appreciate a lot of people don't appreciate how Greater Sunrise Bill was. He's a songwriter. In the same way as let's say a Jackson Browne would be some rice oil enabling the West Coast Cigna sunrises and people don't some people I think. Mel American struggled recognize black artists as being summarizes. I think this is the gap in this of Web. Two seed in the news. I mean you've put your finger on something that Person ABOUT BILL ON OUR MEM- buying most quite young but I thought the Carnegie Hall mazing tossed record and I do remember thinking whatever job wold. You know. This isn't Marvin Gaye. This isn't this isn't smokey Robinson. I don't know exactly who this guy is. He a sitting on a stool with an Acoustic. Utah and this kind of calm goods and it fails. He's he's clearly like a singer. Songwriter Terms to him. But I still remember just that just listening to US may which I think is the opening and then he goes back into it and the crowd goes crazy flow with the most aid still absolutely a his his instructions grandma's hands and on the song itself and also he's extraordinary thing hit. He walked away and again watching the documentary. The content which is held by the people that signed into was Columbia after opposite of the Sussex records where they just are who could be mitigated and have songs given some and this Guy Vernon stones run into bill and they get in touch with the guy who made his life a misery and this guy says well. The problem was building have a manager. Who would tell them what to do. And it's like Jesus fucking Christ I I think what they think he thinks about that. Act So just walking away as the show's great dignity. Yes I I think. That's one of the things that really mocks him out. It's really recognizable aspects of his music and his life and his work and personalities. It's fantastic dignity you talking about live at Carnegie who I mean. It's just stunning the sophistication. Yeah dignity and standing he exe- well what's his extraordinary is how certain people are very very beginning. Who's going around with his demo tape run Los Angeles. The next thing isn't Stephen of Booker. T. producing it with the likes of Stephen Stills and a lot of great session players playing on it apparently he says himself getting this for instant. Graham Nash came downstairs and sat down opposite. Said you don't know how good you are. The A lot of people British bloomed onto bill withers like. This guy is really serious tunnel. Not when he was he came from nowhere. Yeah seats for seven four seven. Whatever areas doesn't yeah exactly? Yes but you're a big fan of vintage. American soul music definitely. I mean what's what how'd you hear Bill Withers? I mean I think I think your fun. Yeah very much so I really love the sound of his music. Yes but his songs beautiful beautiful songs extremely well put together and just really nicely conceptualized as well. It was sort of a completeness about them that I think is rare. I mean the managed to write music. That is both touching and if pretty but it's not like it's got weight and cheeses Shange Day isn't is yeah. I mean how can you song called Lovely Day? That's not it really is genuine. It's true I think there's a truth about what he's doing. He's technician of a gentleman this 'cause he's talked. Jan. Yes yes I voted well. It's still documents lovely instinct. Seeing his relationship with his second wife still at the and it was prickly brilliant relationship to adults and it was really really good young thing of course he had he had a great fan. Biden is basically chose songs flood street band. Which was Melvin Dunlap? On Bass James James Gadston that group tastic bond and yet they were play with such restraint behind him and James Guidances senators visa. That was the best time I ever had really. I was very valid thing this great band because actually probably my very first exposure to the music of bill withers was Black Street and Dr Dre. No diggity which samples grandma's hands and that's probably the first time I heard that music kind of went. Oh hang on. What is this you know I want to hear the original and then then to hear the voice and it kind of comes together in that way but actually what attracted me to it? First and foremost was that really tight really understated. Really low key and brilliant by grandma used to issue a and Tsitsi let. Don't you run so might followed up piece glaze. Snakes there in that the homes black stream take the original stakes. Baby gotta you gotTa Hope. He made a fortune hightlight. He was comfortable is not comfortable because he wrote at least five hit records hit. I mean massive here invested in property as well he had a little small and I mean not came through so clearly instill bill. I mean I remember watching that with this idea in my head of building a bit bitter and he wasn't too slowly. There's a man of great dignity and humility. I mean nothing is overstated. I think I think he suffers from depression. I think it was a part of his makeup in life. You not make too much point. I don't think he's life is necessarily straightforward Trash but he he'd come through that and seems to be very much pieces themselves from So-so foles Fisher era. We hear a little click because part of what we're featuring on the homepage and tributes bill a just about a minute from bill domains twenty. Oh four will sign interview with him and really get a sense of everything we've just been saying about the man sunshine sees go is not a wall win. She's Louis I'm sixty five now. Friends of mine are starting to like just die and nobody really ask why you know while they died you know and so the I'm at the age of mortality or at least thinking about it and sometimes I think like you know if I don't organize his stuff and do something with it. You Know Somebody. Oh probably come in here. After I'm dead and you know throw it in the trash. Can I hope not so the one thing that I'm starting to realize is And I'm always flattered when you know when somebody likes you you know calls and we have a conversation because it causes me to think about times when I was a different guy in other words that guy in his thirty that did most stuff that people bring up to me. Now that guy is gone. She's gone and she's always gone to know in it she goes. Where's the guys known? He's what he's GonNa get. That guy is gone. I don't think he did regret leaving. I think you know what we're saying. Just now is like he chose moment and he had said what he wanted to say and not idiom and left it and I think that's a great thing to do. It's very in the documentary. They `lustration by having him was lost. I guess very late. Tv appearance to very little eighties. Chicks kind of like pretending to sing backing vocals as daunting by him and he looks so uncomfortable. Not Doing he is anyway you either way. We should just briefly mention to musicians who we have lost to the virus in the past few days one of them. Joan prime we did actually talk extensively about when we face Interviewees him just a few weeks ago. Bought had been in pretty good health anyway for a number of years battles with cancer. Such wasn't the biggest Learn he had succumbed to Covet nineteen nonetheless. I really Saad loss unique songwriter. A prince of a guy and we're featuring a great interview. Holly GLEASON DID WITH HIM. Twenty six taint the great interview where she all about many great songs on that first album. But we're also sign goodbye to the story. How will know how to sum up this guy's career other than to say he's coming to the king of what you might call the alternative tribute album? He put together some of the most fascinating tribute records. The anybody's during the loss guests associates the much parts being the Disney album. Stay awake where he got a very eclectic people to do by Massoni from Disney movies like Aaron Neville doing the Mickey Mouse March and singing when you wish upon a stall and he also get sun raw to do pink elephants on parade. I mean. That's a pretty inspired combination. I've never I've never. I've wanted to go and listen to it now. I've heard of it but I think I think that was the key to him as well was the long before it became the industry trope to get surprising people to do surprising couples. You know he was a master that giant parliament. Where you take that. You know a really well known song. Get somebody surprising to do. And out of that comes something completely Anyway we've got a few infused on the site not many. Because he's one of those patron people that is generally Tulsa but it's very interesting reading and talking about what he does his relationship. The office elderly. He was loved by people who work with him but he did. He made very few records as a producer. Donlan offshoots did. Didn't I mean he made a few? He did a lot my unfaithful. Yeah Poker's parent. He's also ill. With with with the far side throughout all of this he was also the chief music supervisor. On Saturday night live I mean that was his big pie and Gig bridal these sorts of Bosnians holidays. It's nice where I'd say. Jeb piece. Stephen Aw Rosen. Just sunsets which really explains how great. How will it's cooled? How will the creation of the modern tribute album? It's an interview that Stephen did with him for. La City Bait and twenty four so that free on the home page. That's everything that's free and you're not GonNa talk astray some of the stuff that aintree well again on you. I'm sorry join including either Davis the Daily Express West Coast Correspondence aid. Not's not just had a big hit with those pizza maids walking. She says my father. I said the record. He turned up his nose and told me great tune but the voice stinks. How sad when I didn't know he had a single out at the time and cells and he was really pissed off because her record was seven a lot more than his vocals and I bet it was better than his to a great record. And none of these days these boots are gonNA walk all over seventy-two Melody Maker talking to grand this the movie of the law states that fillmore. Just come out so she bill. Graham was the legendary promotes of the film moves east on West and many other venues and social and still is a great song is New York New York guy you know. We're the kind of interesting backstory Holocaust survivor and so on and so forth. And he says nothing is close to the fillmore. Nothing will ever be close staggering. What it was and I said as Dole grant or if I weren't Bill Graham love it mean I kind of brilliant about Bill Graham Howe however sort of just preacher naturally aggressive. He was with everyone. Yeah great excellent relations. What we've been talking about with Cole said vicious lifestyle played too extreme end by Joel solving the San Francisco. Chronicle in seventy nine hundred seventy nine essentially no bit but it's also an American writing about British punkish always quite amusing. But it's they sort of. Don't get in the way in Tokyo. Another what dozen years to get it. Yeah I mean individuals did but certainly the American music pressed the head of the whole thing. He says talk for Punk. Aim Somehow not too surprising. Drug overdose deaths at age. Twenty one should vicious orgies. Scroll his name. Indelibly in the annals of rock by rising over the high side for one final time however vicious should his place in bestirred see is a genuine rock and roll amount of the fancy bone from blackboard. Jungle well those musical skills negligible fishes played out his rough and tumble rock and roll lifestyle to its most extreme in many ways. Most romantic and full online poll coma. I think he's making some very good points thera because you know he was the ultimate finest superstar and he also was enormously charismatic. I don't think he was very nice but I met him a few times. The last time was really sad because he he nancy spungen fed out the CABBIE's Swiss cottage going to notorious drug dealers. Danny one of those big towerblocks on at like me and my friend literally had to help them to the door they could not stand up God and the first met him. He threatened me and a group of friends quite aggressively and it was dead. The Martha Jones Crystal Dealers said his kit. When we get into the situation. Get Your keys and put one better. I actually did that because I thought we were going to get a pace. So I had various different experiences of sin but I think the he was mccaren. Ultimate aim radi was to elevate the audience beyond the Rockstar draco old johnny role. In some ways he succeeded but I think sip was also a very troubled kid are not people who were quite close to him. An you know. He had a very very sad upbringing. Yeah there was any kind of one way he was going to go with a without Clara. Actual show something with this idea of his posterity in the annals of rock and all that stuff when that's couldn't be further from what punk is all about really pumped. Yeah all-star see but this is kind of interesting as you say American sort of approach to trying to trying to contextualized this rock and roll concept with regards to sufficient. I think that's what they do. Because they missed makers Americans live the great near whatever it is and here is somebody who is you know you can easily draw him. His cigarette is recognizable. And so you know. He's a great niche. That's a really interesting point because what we're talking about earlier and about smoke McLaren lamenting God's one of the problems. I find reading in my job. The American press the eighties through the nineties is they want to create them so that wildly over hyping all sort of like inflating people who within five years of Pissy Confronts Mediocrity Interesting State that I think one of the greatest hates his own the sex pistols is by Timothy. You guys will remember Raucous. Dad's been living in London. It's a double image cover of rolling stone from October. Nineteen seventy seven and he gets fantastic access to everybody. Hangs out with the move and he really kind of understands. This was about because he ends by saying you know in the loving pays California Southern California kids you know damaged a high schools to the tune of six million dol- turn so McLaren and the pistols at tapping into an anger right right and so I think. Sometimes they know that distance can lend in soft moving eighty three enemy a name cave rich guy in the fourth very amusing and because she's. I think she's very funny rice so I like stuff a lot. I wish we had more of her stuff from the site but John King says obviously what we was political and we still have that thing got fed up with being treated like evangelise try financing because my problem seventy post punk bands is being given school that truth and I really felt that especially. We'll gang full particularly. They will wagging their finger. You had to sort of go along with him to say. Well you know the place making moving onto eighty five ritual INS sees Chet Baker. Play Ronnie Scott's in London is the Times says in wallkill a medium template blues. His phrases tacked on to agile variations. A lights decarlo contracting plush SNEERS SOMETIMES HIS LANGUAGE INVENTIONS. Hanania like smoke drifting sense to breeze plowed by the panel of John. Hola up basically Bush in the drums of Tony Crombie. I just like that as a piece of our way. So those gas. I think he'd made a residency. Knows a fantastic booker. I don't know whether King or whoever was in scouts. But he also booked Nina Simone who died being going to see since the mid seventy five G. They released the MON video. There are a whole series of videos. Chat Baker. Need someone in a couple of Santa Fe would really. I mean there was that kind of ghoulish being about Baker time because he looked so unbearably here. But he won't that sort of commerical depress. Yes and then easy really hold true. Yeah no that's lovely here. I mean Rich Williamson. This peace talks about the souls. Comparisons on Thabit to most Davis is that he talks. Most Davis said that sometimes the software I play the more intense I- gaps thing and he sort of applies that typically thirty nights I love rich Williamson pricing yes. She writes music in a way that very few people. I love that forever. That's my lot Bonnie just Rooney. I've just got to pieces. I WANNA mention actually one of which I think ties in sort of in a not direct but interesting way to about with regards to Malcolm McLaren and that is the piece riding for two thousand and three which is an interview with so solid crew. And that's interesting for the times and it's interesting too because this point so solid crew about to release a second album which I think most people didn't necessarily expect them to to get to because number of them have been arrested on dot denoting guns and Blah Blah Blah Blah answers into you mostly with the leader so solid crew. Dwayne mega man. Vincent says a lot of people will look so solid and say Barracuda their own problems. Maybe we are but who cares we. Don't we hit the music? And so solid. We have all the tools we have. The talent the looks the attitude the get-go and we have the fan base with the first album. Will people logged onto our website. Come month than West. Life's because people who've never heard on music of seen us on the news and I just think it ties in with that age old old publicity is good publicity g that that McLaren and the sex pistols to us and I think it's also music is community. You know seeing those people who are ignored by a light society why sizing so in the same way that so so really had to push themselves. Full wouldn't organize. There are nights to the Africa's something like that. You really got that sense. From so solid crew that they will also demonized by the race absolutely absolutely tabloid press says. Well that were very talents. He one probably have was bit like time. Which I deal with is the larger. Your grouping is the more inherently Celtic becomes and they really stay really suffer from that also. They were already bunch. A friend of mine. Jamie runs used to run Britannia roasters. He had them in two months. They didn't pay the bill. That was kind of the way they roles they were. They were Busby deal with having said that I think the big grime office in the last eight years example. I think looked at what so solid did wrong and took cues how to actually do that. Stuff without folding traps They didn't make some interesting records as well for that period of time. This is an interesting about the other pieces. The twenty eighteen review of Prince's piano and a microphone which I think is a first review of the album. Which is one of my absolute favorite prince albums. And I just I absolutely love. And it's an ice speech by Dave Simpson in The Guardian. And it highlights something that we've actually talked about before. I don't know if on the podcast not mark united certainly talked about this about Princess Leia play most instruments while is phenomenal talents as a guitarist are all over his catalog and currently an audible infants. Vincent and gentleman. Ed is skills as a pianist to unrecognised even off his sovereignty. Final Twenty sixteen counter tool but he is on fire here gospel classical funk and jazz us from his fingertips at will so would they in the previously bootleg cold coffee and cocaine. You suspect the guy could have played chopin on a watering. Can I just think wonderful and I? It's it's a nice bit of writing an absolutely wonderful. I just think he prince useful. I think it's very good. I mean I listened to the company ten I have but as a piano player of adores my first real exposure was his. How come you didn't love me anymore? Which is just him at a piano piling up his book lamaism talk themselves. And he's terrific kanner. He's such a great uses for around six assists punisher. Yeah I've actually listened to a great deal since it came. It really ends up. Which is remarkable given? It's basically like a one take piano stuff. It was never supposed to be released until then get to hear that. I think that's really special about coq. Cold coffee and cocaine great. Well I think a lot isn't it's just been terrific's in a way. We're still getting used to this. New Mode of recruiting the cost it slightly surreal. But it's really not been able to Mike a wish you the best of luck with the Mukarram Book and you'll future project five team as been a gas. Thanks for coming well. An absence of sort of global book to this new presumably going to be able to promote the book. In the way that you would have been able to. Yeah but I think there's always ways and means and that she what we found is the cause a lot of authors delayed their titles to the altar. Yeah I didn't. I didn't want to do that because we got various media not Birthday and softener number coding scripts fool a radio four documentary which will go out at eight o'clock on April the twenty fifth on radio for a cold. So you know throw. Those reasons are wanted to get the book out. Yeah. You're not sure what we're finding is that people will during it. We're getting more than we anticipate much to do. And so they they. Now's the time to read. I sixty pages. That's eight hundred and sixty mile. I'd get it from my kindle instantly. I'm afraid of McKinley competing. I don't see any pictures but we do that by. Shake your hand when we sign. Yeah pretty crazy thank you thanks for coming in so teach. Apps shall we hear from the subject of your magnum opus to take us out Mark Malcolm talking about how there were no gods anymore? Otherwise we'll see you next week. We gotTA guess next week. Old Doesn't know yet who knows. I'll come back. Stay that pool seven days. Okay thanks for bearing with US through AD. I Guess Malcolm take us out by everyone. Characters seven lives and be responsible you look back without a male's opening at characters that we once felt we use four archetypes dope bump in the night to make his jump out that in the moines to make us run away for harm to make escape out to believe a coach of creek chain life. Reason why you have God's not Jim Morrison Jimi Hendrix and Elvis Presley and Marilyn Monroe and even those kinds of God's doesn't exist anymore and that's the trouble with coach Malcolm McLaren in conversation with John Toddler in nine hundred ninety nine concluding this week's Rox back pages. Podcast many thanks to special guests. Paul Gorman stay at home and by his new book the life and Times of Malcolm McLaren and then check out his website. Paul Gorman is dot com for details about his other books the host Vanni Hoskins and Mark Pringle and it was co hosted and produced by Jasper Murison Bowie. The rocks back pages. Podcast is part of the Pantheon. Podcast network you can find thousands of articles as well as hundreds of full length audio interviews a rocks back pages dot com.