Julie Greenwald, chairman & COO, Atlantic Records: You have to outwork everybody else.
Today's episode is sponsored by stay Lauder. The nighttime skin-care expert will explain in a bit but first. Let's get into the episode. For those people that really want career in one to get to the very top. You have to work everybody else. That's it and I'm not saying it's GonNa be the longest hours. It might be at work with the best ideas. I'm curly's Aken I'm Danielle Weisberg welcome skin from the couch this podcast where we go deep on career advice from women who have lived check from the good stuff like hiring and growing team to the rough stuff like negotiating your salary and giving or getting hard feedback. We started the skin from a couch, so what better place to talk it all out than it began on a couch. Hey, everyone, the show might look and sound a bit different today because we're skimming from three different couches, the scam is working from home for the time being because of covid nineteen today joined by a powerhouse of the music industry, Julie Greenwald she is the CEO and chairman of Atlantic records during her time in the business. She's helped. Advance the careers of Bruno Mars. Kelly Clarkson at Sharon. Just to name a few chewy were really excited to have you with us today. Welcome to skin from the couch. They you for having me so truly. We're GONNA. Jump in, ask you to skim your resume for us. I went to two lane university go graduated in nineteen ninety wine, and then I did a program called teach for America where I taught in the calliope projects, and then I started working at Rush Management With Lear Coin Your Cohen's assistant from ninety two to ninety. Re Unwind Ninety. Three moved over to detmer hurts and became the promotions coordinator, and then from ninety three to ninety nine worked my way up industrial records, and then ninety nine took over island records and became the head of marketing for island addict. Jam. Then I'm not quite sure when I became president with now it's not to get causey with my dates, but I do know in two thousand four I. I came over to Atlantic records online I've been at Atlantic records since two thousand four Julie with something that is not on your kind of official bio that we should know about you I. Don't think I officially. put down. That I am a mom with two kids by that is probably my most favorite part of my life is that I am a twenty year old and a sixteen year old. That's great I want to kind of just start with the elephant in the room that we're all dealing with which is how to run companies amid stay global pandemic, the music industry is interesting, because in some ways you know, it seems like you have a lot of talented people who are at home, and a moment of reflection in some sorts and I'm sure they'll be a lot of good hopefully music to come out with it. But how are you thinking about this time? So for the artists that have been able to continue to give us, music is been business as usual in terms of. Thinking of Creative Marketing and promotional. For these artists rollout there songs, obviously facing different challenges, which is. Creation of music video photo shoots. We've sent artist green screens. We've sent them ring lights, and so been really just trying to keep everybody focused on the fact that the world is listening to music right now to help through such a terrible time, and so many artists are giving great music to continue out there. They're a bunch of artists that still need to get into a studio. Need a collaboration and those artists. Were just trying to be really good partners and friends to down and tell them that you know. Hey, it's okay. Take this time, maybe just right in a notebook and try to just be you know thoughtful, and in good partners to our artists that are staring at the fact that they may not be able to tour. You know for the. Future and so we're just trying to make sure that they see the light to buy you know. Streaming has really offered us a way to share their art and music and doing these live streams social. That, they can stay connected to their hands. I think we've been incredibly lucky. In terms of all the businesses that are really been affected were continuing to. Market and promote during this time. And as a leader, how have you been trying to set your team up remotely and keep them focused at a time when there's so much uncertainty? So, I personally jumped writing at first and I do weekly email. It's very personal. Email to my whole company every Sunday night to talk about okay. We're about to start in next week. Know Week two week three and I share my stories and I let them know that. Now I'm in a house with two crazy kids and husband and a dog just diagnosed. Diagnosed with cancer and Chemo and and so you know I let them know that I to going through you know challenging situations, and then also set up a time for every department where I call it either morning tea, or after key, where every assistant coordinator manager director on up gets an opportunity to see me on the screen and talk to me in. In us. We questions so I can kind of let them know what we're talking about. Upstairs and keep sharing the fact that we don't know when we're GONNA. Come back when it's okay because we're working. How can I help you and in really like? Let them see that they can. Individually email may call me facetime with me and I'm right there in the. The canoe with them. I feel like I've actually gotten more facetime award. Talk Time with every person on the staff in. It's great because you know. Sometimes, it's the meetings where assistance in coordinators don't really WANNA speak, and now I think I've given them all voice. If you'll really comfortable to talk with me and asked me style for share ideas, maybe they. Feel comfortable being in the big room because they feel so intimate. I think people have gotten so much more vulnerable and more creative, and we're open with me, and so I actually personally feel like I'm GonNa. Come out of this a better reader because I've got so much more individual time with the staff and I think the staff from what I'm feeling back from their emails and their conversations. They're feeling like they're building a closer bond, not only with me, but their peers and other workers from other departments that they don't normally engage with, because everybody is so You know talking regularly every day with each other. I. WanNa. Go back in time. When did you think you'RE GONNA? Be when you were growing up. Very clear path, so I was always going to law school. I was always going to become a lawyer. My parents involved in politics in always were involved in many clamper beats, and so when I went to college, or read about being a lobbyist, and then I was like God is definitely for me I signed up to be Senator, John Bruce in turn of Louisiana I date again true drives and volunteered soup kitchens. That's why when I read about teach for America. I was like Oh my God I don't have to go to the Peace Corps I don't have to leave the country. I could do good in the United States and I turned. Turned Management I work at a to a law school admissions office guided rate with Dean of admission is I was like okay? He's gonNA write a letter of REC. Law School and I was like I'm GonNa? Do teach for America. Get this amazing hands on experience on because I felt like on God I could be either children's rights, advocate or women's rights advocate. I want to go to DC politics. I'M GONNA. Do teach for America. I'm the go to law school. I knew exactly when I was going to do when I took a summer job. Lee Are after teach for America I was I to with me into his office every day the. Study Guide so I'm. GonNa I'M GONNA? Pass you because who is leader? Okay, so you're calling was one of the founders of Def jam records in one of the most important people in hip hop music in terms of your driving Def jam records in driving hip hop into mainstream music in. He's gone on to become the chairman warna music real. And then he went to become the chairman of Youtube Music Right now, and so he's A. A major player in the music business, and so when I took a job as his assistant, it was just a summer job so I could be in your city in steady for the L. Sats Weiner. Mind boyfriend I never really thought. I was going to stay music business. You know I needed to help pay the bills and he saw every day. I had this. Book on my shelf in. What are you doing and I was like I'm going to Moscow when that's. When he yelled at me and he was like everybody is a lawyer miserable. You don't want to be a lawyer. You stay in music business and that's when he said you know you should go to. My other company learn another side of the business is I was on the management side with him. To the records I am assuming growing up. Did you have any connection to the music industry? Not to the industry I did I did like music, but you know I just like music in the car and music. You know on the radio in uneven. Know about the business you know I. didn't know anything about. It didn't even think it was an opportunity for me or I. Honestly never thought it was a creative type of person I was A. We's a great speaker. I knew I was going to be a lawyer. That's what I thought. I was built for. How did you discover that you had to create a side? was a you the discovered a first or leader? So I was sitting in promotion meetings in I would be like. Hey, why don't we do this this this? Would this artist and why don't we come up with this kind of concert? I? Remember with onyx on its was the rap band. We're trying to break in early nineties in and they had a song called Slam. And at that time we were getting a lot of heat from the government about our lyrics being too aggressive in videos, being too aggressive, and that's when they were first introducing the we needed to stick. Our product is a parental advisory. On it and so I, did a whole continent equalled slam censorship where brought run DMC Onyx Redmond to perform in DC to say you can't censor their music just because you're offended what they're saying, but this is why. This is the stories that they're telling you. Rap Music was under attack you know. In the early nineties. People were stared at it, and so I kept coming up with all these different ideas and Leo was like a moving from promotions to marketing. You have great ideas and then when they handed me the art department in Video Department. That's kind of exploded in terms of. Brainstorming ideas and it really opened up in me was whole other side, but I was like. Wow, this is amazing, dishonest interesting back. In early day we were small company and you had to wear many hats. Just you guys when you started your company. I'm sure you were designing mats and figuring out your logo and all the kind of good talking. When you're a small company, you gotta do seventeen different jobs, and you know sometimes all of a sudden these things inside of you that you did not have become you know your passion and you're like. Wow, I'm ended it when I hear you. You talk about being at two lane and you're like. Yeah, so you know. The Dean of admissions for the law. School was gonNA. Write me a recommendation and then I'm an intern. Who has this kind of casual interest in music? But we are takes notice of me. You say it so casually, but there had to be something that makes it so that these people are drawn to you or they see something in you. Is it a sense of fearlessness? Is it that you kind of knew what you wanted and you went after it? What do you think got you that foot in the door? So, I I can tell you from a very early age I've always been confident. I always known. I wanted things I wanted to get good grades. I knew I wanted to go to good college. So I set myself on a path to be involved in a lot of organizations I. always knew that Lake I needed to work. To move myself forward. I saw how hard my parents worked I saw that they were involved. In many things I had the greatest role bottle of life. My Mom was my dad's partner in the built a giant business, and she was also involved in many philanthropies, not just with money, but personal time, and she seemed to make dinner like five nights a week, and she was the greatest cook in the warmest person I three sisters, and yet we all thought she loved us the most. You know when you have a role model like that, I set my sights to be like her. To be you know a major contributor back to society, not just have a job, but also do some good in the world you know. I always just wanted to do the best job for people. No matter if I was an intern or just a part time job, you know I always gave it two hundred percent, and I knew my own work ethic was going to be the thing that propelled me forward. You Know I. Think the confidence that you're talking about is obviously propelled you forward, and we talk a lot about faking it till you make it on the show and we'd certainly done that ourselves I'm curious. Is there something that you professionally have not been confident about? So I think. The beginning when I first got into hip hop music because I don't claim to be a hip hop Aficionado I just love the music and I fell in love with the culture and the art and artists. I think. I've always known what I. Don't know I've never been afraid to ask for help and I've never been afraid to hire people that actually are Jenner than me and are more informed. Better educated whether it's been technologies. Social media understanding their culture hip hop were alternative music so even when I don't know something I'm confident, I don't know it and that like. Let me surround myself with really good people do know it. I mean there's a lot of things I don't necessarily good I, but I know it I know I'm not on it so I bring in those people that really help me get better and to learn from it when you started off in the music business, you've been open about paying your dues as I think most people. People do when they get into the industry I think that there's been a lot of conversation about what paying your dues should look like and you know when we interview people, especially young people starting out, there's definitely at times you can recognize the person that just hungry and they'll do whatever and then there are the people that are hungry, but they want to know what the job path out of that entry level position looks like. How do you as now the boss bank about people starting off, and what that path around paying their dues should look like. So I definitely employees a lot of young people right out of college, and we have a giant intern program where we really try to make sure keeping an eye on superstar interns that could then become our assistance to work their way up I don't fault anybody with A. And I actually appreciate people, especially young women that come in and sit with me. An WanNa know what is their path forward, and is there a real clear half-forward here? You know so many people know my story, but in a very small company so I had I think an easier time to move very fast of the ladder, and when you're in a very large company, it may not be fast, and it could feel daunting in the one thing I. WanNa do is make sure people know that you can row here and that it might be a slower pace, but there's real opportunity to grow, and it's my job to make sure that the young people feel like I'm. I'm going to provide them with a path forward, so it doesn't bother me when people have edition as long as they come in in their super respectful to their immediate bosses, and their co workers in the all understand that you know everybody isn't going to be the Alpha, but it doesn't mean those people are in great and contributing to the company to I, just want a very healthy respectful workplace, but as you guys know you're going to be people that leapfrog people that have been there much longer at your company because they're giving it to million times more in, they have way better ideas and they're you know burning those hours as a really showing you that. They WANNA come. Take you out of your chair, and like the one thing you don't want to do is you don't want to stifle that. We want people to feel like they can really thrive because they could be the ones that are going to add some extra thing to your company and make your company that much more better invaluable. We are all in a period of working from home for the foreseeable future. Thanks to covid nineteen. And if you're like us, it means that the workday just kind of goes on and on and on because there's no sense of routine, and we're already home, and there's a lot of screen time and screen back back is not good for anyone. We recognize how lucky we are. Stay at home, but we're trying to focus on a little self care so fortunately. We found a great way to put that. into practice, and that's with anr Estee Lauder is advanced night repair serum? Use it before your moisturizer. E fast penetrating serum helps can maximize its natural ability to repair by night and protect by day like a superhero, but for your skin when over five hundred women tried it eighty percent noticed more rested healthier, looking skin in four weeks their skin felt more hydrated and had a radiant glow had to estee lauder dot Com to learn more. That's E. S. T. L. A. U. D. E. R.. DOT, com start tonight with estee lauder advanced night repair serum. I WanNa talk about bringing people along division. You made the switch to run at records you help define def jam, and then you move to a legacy label top rebuild in a conic brand. How do you bring people along with you without scaring them? Oh! I definitely scared them. I'll never forget the first when I came over in two thousand four. I left the number. One label in the country island def jam was on fire. Jay De AMAC's Commie ludicrous job will shanty killers fall out boy, some forty one who is staying I mean we wrong fire again. Confidence is not something I lack. I came in in said to everybody. First of all I had a be hundreds of hundreds of people, and I had a fire, hundreds of people, and so I was scary person because they knew I was deciding if you're gonNA, stay go, and so you know. As I was meeting people. I was really trying to understand. Are you a bow becoming a new culture and a new company or you going to be gripping, and are you going to be a problem for me? But, how do you create a culture? Fear Paralyzes People. And instead motivates them. Because what I did was I got rid of a Lotta People's I had hundreds and hundreds of people to choose from and I interviewed a bazillion people and I said Hey, 'cause I had electron Atlantic in my said. Hey I'm not trying to come over here and be all the lecturing, nor the old Atlantic and by the way I'm more trying even the island gesture I'm. The company left on coming here to create a new company with. With a new culture or you down, and if you were down for this new mission, because honestly, it's going to be hard. I tunes had yet really taken off now. Stir was thriving. He was scared for their jobs and I was like listen. I will lead you to safety, but I need I need to know that you are not going to be gripping and that you're gonna be down to do things new different way and that. That are going to be a company where it's all about development signing artists in however long it's GonNa take. It's GonNa take an on patient for greatness, but I need you guys to be patient. Understand the hard work. It is to start over in really come along with me and based on the interview. You know if you were down felt it kept you and on five felt like they were like looking at me like Oh, you young! Young thirty four year old. You never know what you're talking about. Then I said you know I'm GonNa, let you go and when we started you know I. Let people know like listen. I am a vision for this place. I want to hear people's ideas. I had an openness in meetings. Like Hey I. Don't know everything. Give me your marketing ideas, but I was also very vocal that I thought the idea was not a good idea. Said? No, and that's what leadership is is having envisioned driving it and. Being open to people helping you with the ideas the creative, but when things don't feel right or smell right, you also have to. Just you have to assert yourself and not be afraid to say no. We're not going down that path. This is how we're going to do it and I outworked. Everybody you know. It's like I was in their morning noon and night showing everybody what my commitment was. was to the artists, and then I was taking this very seriously, so no one could be like. Oh, she's an armchair quarterback. I was in it and they saw me meetings that I really wanted creative thoughts. I wanted to create a company I just didn't want to do it the way because the old way was getting put out in his new time called digital music I to this new. New thing and that's why honestly Atlantic records was the first companies across the digital divide. We were making more music more money from apple than we were physical next, because people came along with me and we're not afraid to embrace this new thing called Apple, and then when streaming happened, my company was first company to actually make more money from streaming the digital, because one time we embrace streaming. Streaming we were like. How do you market to it? Hardy macaroni rounded an huggy. You market on the platform. I've always been interested in the know what's out there. And how can we better because our John? Lewis and Clark eight for our artists to go back and educate the artists and show them it was this promise land over here, and this is how we're gonNA. Get you to safety. When you talk about that period where you're starting off building in, and it's going to be a New Vision, and you also have the chance to build a different culture. You said you didn't have a personal life for a long time, and you talked about wishing that you had taken a longer return ity leave. How do you think back on what you've built in the culture today, and now having the opportunity to be both the boss and the mentor? What is your advice to people in that position? Who are trying to find what works for them? While I I definitely in way, more sensitive to young parents who are just having children or starting their families in I'm really encouraging them to make sure that they don't miss out on so many of life's wonderful moments that I missed out on. You know I look back and that's the only part that I. Regret like that, you know. I chose so many times to stay at the office and not go to a soccer game or go. Gee, a volleyball bulky because I didn't reschedule meeting. On end so I definitely Wayne more sensitive to folks to say. Hey, you have a cell phone. You have a laptop. Go home. Go be with your kids on. Then he can finish your work at night. Because obviously we need people to not fall behind, and you know our artists count on us to deliver endure we need to do they don't WanNa hear that we left the office at five o'clock because they were different hours than us. I let people know that it's hard i. Let especially the women. Man It's really hard to juggle. It all end that there's no such thing as. Stop striving for balance. Just do the best job you can give yourself a break every so often. Stop beating yourself up, but you know for those people that really want a career in WanNa get to the very top. You have to at work everybody else. That's it and I'm not saying it's GONNA. Be the longest amount of hours. It might be out work with the best ideas it might be having. The relationships move talent that working harder exactly. You gotTA outhustled. People because that's who gets the ring at the end of the day or the people that are putting points on the board in showing their. Valuable, you know that's why it's really important. If you want my chair, come for it. You gotta come for it because there's one thing I learned is no one gives you anything. You got to really create your own path while. You're not only in the music industry. You're also in the talent industry. And you have to manage a of different personalities artists. One of ours capacitors had a question. I actually was thinking about so thank you Catherine F for asking Miss. But how do you give honest feedback to people in artists who are typically stereotypically surrounded by men or women? So I always felt really good about my role, because I was never on the artist payroll, and so you know I always felt like they knew I was coming from a different place and I just. You know felt like they knew always where they stand with me when I would court then to sign them I always say never gonNA mean more honest and direct person with me, but it's always gonNA come from a place of love and wanting to just see you have a career in the future. If you establish that day wine from the first moment you have to deal with bomb where you see video, where piece of art or a song and you say. You know what like I liked the song? I, don't it? I think the video is just okay can you could have done better if he don't bullshit them from day? One than they understand the relationship with you know, this is the thing if you remember, you have the opportunity to really get in with an artist from before they were famous to athlete were famous. And, so you said you know the tone of what your relationship is going to be. And so when you very honest and direct relationship with them from day one inch eaten when they turn out to sell hundreds of millions of albums, they still no I'm that exact same person. I haven't changed for me. I'm GONNA business where there's no right answer. Right music is so subjective in so there's always the it's just my opinion. And I'm giving you my opinion with love, respect and as much knowledge and information that I have about the situation, but it's my opinion, and at the end of the day. The artist needs to make your decision of what they wanNA. Do we always know where they stood with me? You are one of the top players in a traditionally male dominated industry. What's your advice for? Specifically women who are trying to negotiate and I asked this because when I met you, we were at dinner, and it was all talking about negotiation, and you were just so blunt and confident, and it was really refreshing. It definitely gave me some confidence to think about negotiating in it it in a different way. When you're negotiating. You have to know what your values and look the if you think you're worth. A million dollars a year, but you have been done anything to deserve a million dollars in here. Little crazy. You also have to know where you are in the career path to and what you're delivering and how valuable you are, you have to understand the marketplace. You have to do your homework. You have to be informed. You know we have a business where at least in the music business in where community you can reach out to you, but you also have their peers in your friends that. That you know it's an uncomfortable conversation and I don't think people necessarily warranted share. You know what rates are, but there is some homework and diligence that you gotta kind of do. If you're moving up the ladder, just so you have an understanding of what the marketplace is going to bear, but if you're a superstar, and you're not asking for it than you're missing out on. You don't have to look at it like you're being obnoxious or you're being. You know wrong in the matter you just. Have to say you know what this is. My worth and I'M GONNA. Go for it, but you know in so many situations. You got to be willing to put your neck out on the Y. You ought to be able to say you know. Hey, if you're not going to take care of me, somebody else well, or maybe this isn't the right industry for me. I'm going to go into a different business. That will you know respect? My creativity were this or by, but you also have the know kind of what the on environmentalists I just was having a conversation the other day with somebody about their contract and you know timing is everything. In was like twenty million people are unemployed right now, and we're about to face the worst recession after and my job is to keep his many people employed, and keep all my people employed, and so you know in my handing out giant raises right now no I'm trying to make sure everybody got gigs and so you just have to understand what the environment is to and be thoughtful about it because like I, said if we're going into recession, and you're standing there, asking for Brazilian. You by Galvin Gig just period. You've got to be smart. You do your work, but you also have to know what your self worth is, too, but if you don't put points on the board, don't ask for. A move to our lightning round. Julie New Green ask you. Questions. You have to respond as quickly as possible. Yes morning, person or night owl medium. Just a normal person. Yeah! No, it's crazy. Because Bill Corentin has turned me into a night owl I wasn't morning. Person in the Korn teens turned me into a night. Adults I'm obsessed with supremos now. Are you watching it from the beginning or have? Yes, okay by kids. Can you skim your nighttime routine for us? I make dinner I walked the dog I either depending on the night of the week. Play monopoly. Were we watch the Sopranos until finally on exhausted in the morning and go to sleep. Is there an artist that you've passed on that? You were like. So we had post Malone and we ended up not doing the deal. I every time I see him than heroes. Music I WANNA kill myself. We we had. We just didn't end up making the deal. One of our skin Basseterre Kyla wants to know what is the most bizarre request. You've seen an artist writer. I remember. I did have an artist. Everything in the room had to be white. White eminem white flour is white candles. They on this whole white by everything had to be his beautiful white environment. What is the best concert you've ever been to? All My. Dance I am too I. Am too many I give you. Some of the target is three tops on. The hard knock life, rough rider, red man, but the man. I, giant hip hop concert got was insane in everybody was exploding in. We were just breaking down the barriers. That hip hop is not gonNA. Be Giant or Music that's wine seeing. Ed Sheeran Sleigh four nights at Madison Square Garden. When we started off him in Qatar at the Mercury Lounge eighteen months before that to all of a sudden, we ended the cycle with like four sold out nights at Madison. Square Garden so much work in love on. It was emotional amazing. Might for me, and then and then probably Bruno Mars first concert at bowery ballroom when you just saw that this guy is going to be a worldwide global superstar and It became so clear from this one little show. I was like forget I knew it. I knew how big he was. GonNa be. Unbelievable. Last question. What's your shameless plug? My shameless plug you mean for like one of my artists now can be anything. Right now in the job. interesting time right now because the coronavirus where I just want everybody to be kinds of charter, women especially can make this world a better place right now I think we. are inside organizations in companies. I think we're super thoughtful and I think we can make the world a better right now. Because the world is so scary, we need to make this a better place, and we need to be so much more compassionate anomaly inside organizations, but what we do at home and outside communities eight Hugo match. Core was nice seeing you. Everyone. We're trying something new. During this time of economic uncertainty, we WANNA take a moment to spotlights, a new female founded companies. We've heard from many incredible skimmers who are leading small businesses, and we will be introducing them to you each week on skimp on the couch. See the Lincoln are episode description for how to submit yourself or friends. I'm Dr. Sarah Feldman. I'm a board certified behavior, analyst and Co owner at the Helm Aba and the hell. Maybe a focuses on decreasing problem behavior and increasing communication and improving quality life for children and families affected by autism. We do that I providing in home in center, based therapy and supporting local school districts throughout North Texas. This year we are celebrating our year in business. We started as a small team of two people with three hundred dollars in. In our pockets, since then we've grown to a team of over fifty therapists, and we serve seventy five families for us. When covid nineteen hit, we had literally just gotten the keys to our third clinic, and so at that time we had to shift really from this growth mindset of Henry. Continue to grow and serve more kids more families to how do we create some safety and security for the team that we already have? We really were dedicated. Dedicated to trying to figure out how to get our staff to stay as employed as possible. We were a lucky few that we were able to be considered an essential business, because we provide medically necessary therapy for the families that we serve. We didn't have time to make it perfect. We just switched to tell a hell for as many kids as we could and to provide that supports, and then we switched back to in home, which was our route. Route it kind of felt like you were taking ten steps back, but we were also able to continue to employ as many people as possible. We feel really proud because every family. That's wanted services in every employee. That's one into actually come to work has had a job throughout the whole time for is what can help most is if people take it seriously. We have a lot of kiddos that don't know how to socially distance. They don't know. All the rules and regulations about keeping space or keeping their hands out of their faces in the more that we all take this seriously, this is uncharted territory for everyone, and we have grace for one. Another were all doing the best we can, so we can stay kind of stay home, and you can also follow us on instagram and facebook to learn more about autism and how to support families affected by accident. Thanks for hanging out with US join US next week for another episode of skin from the couch, and if you can't wait until then subscribe to our daily email newsletter that gives you all the important news and information. You need to start your day. Sign about the SKIM DOT com. That's the S.. K. I M. dot com to m's a little something extra.