Now Is the Time To Escape Your Bad Relationship. Heres How.
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Why you're worried is because you feel like if we're not sleeping together we probably won't be spending as much time together is that is that right. Yeah and i'm scared. I'm never gonna find another friendship that makes me so happy. Welcome to how to. I'm charles. David epstein is on a well-deserved vacation this week and so i'm here explorer. A tough question one. The a number of you might be dealing with now that the world is reopening. What do we do with the intense relationships that we developed during the pandemic. the thing is breaking up can be really hard especially if someone you just spent the last year quarantine that goes for serious relationships but also you know friends with benefits the situations where you might be sleeping together no strings attached and this might be a good moment to mention. If you're listening to this with kids you might wanna hit pause and wait until your home alone. The situation that this week's listeners dealing with is a situation just like that she's been casually sleeping with a guy for about a year decided to pair up because of the pandemic and now she wants to go back to just being friends without benefits. The way things used to be but she's worried it'll destroy their relationship and maybe she'll end up alone. My name is sarah. And i'm a student of psychology. Sarah's also a competitive ballroom dancer and she's really serious about dancing and because of the pandemic she was assigned just one partner. This guy named matthew my dance partner. And i became incredibly good friends the kind of friendship that i haven't found in my life before a friendship where i felt very much authentically myself in at the time sarah was defined friend like matthew. My very good friends are mostly with women. Because i'm in my late thirties. And their extra cautious of course because of the pandemic as they should be and we haven't had opportunities to go walking and so it's lonely. I feel incredibly lonely. And it's impossible to meet anybody my age right and how to so sarah. Matthew started spending a lot of time together and you know one thing led to another and the type of dance we do is like a tango. So it's already incredibly intimate. He is almost ten years younger than i am. And is kind of in this world of casual friend copulation and suggested it and we began to Have sex and become quite intimate and then we had a conversation about yeah. Let's let's just be pandemic buddies or like friends with benefits which Apparently he's done before in were you. Were you cool. That was that something. You're comfortable with with started. I spent quite a bit of time. Deluding myself. But i was doing it. Not for my own gratification or satisfaction but instead because i was so desperately scared that if i had said no it would compromise the friendship which is one of the reasons i do. Wanna get out of this because that is like such an unhealthy pattern of mine I also found out that he does want to get married and he does want to have children. And i don't want to have kids. And yeah so so. Sarah wants to stop this friends with benefits stuff with mathew but they're great dance partner and this friendship is really important to and top of all that. She's kind of worried that she's missed a year of finding the person who is right for her romantically at thirty six. Am i going to find someone who wants to marry me without kids. I feel really old. And i know. That's all relative. But i feel i feel like maybe i passed my opportunity to meet someone And being with matthew isn't helpful. For that i mean even with the pandemic it's like it's not exactly encourage me opportunities. Sarah's not alone with this problem and so that's why we turn to logan jury for some help. Logan is a relationship coach in a behavioral scientists at hinge. Dating app. yes i mean. It's been an interesting year for dating. There's going to be people who haven't had physical touch in a year and are going to conduct their own sexual rump spring. A but i also think we're going to have people who sat there alone on their couch and said i'm sick of watching gilmore girls. I really wanna find someone. And i'm trying to help them strategize and say yes. Maybe you didn't date over the last year. But what can we do in the next year to really help you get where you want to go. Can logan save. Sarah's friendship with matthew is a friendship with an x even a good idea on today show how to break up with someone but also how do feel confident that if you do you'll find new people to fill that hole in your life. Don't leave us. This episode is brought to you by progressive one of the country's leading providers of all time insurance with progressives. Name your price tool you say what kind of coverage you're looking for and how much you want to pay and progressive will help you find options that fit within your budget. Use the name your price tool and start an online quote today at progressive dot com price and coverage match limited by state law. The distance between washington and wall street gets shorter all the time our finances portfolios in the markets are affected daily by news coming out of the nation's capital mike townsend. Charles schwab is vice president for legislative and regulatory affairs. who's the original podcast. Washington wise investor. Where he takes a nonpartisan look at the stories that matter most to investors including the biden administration's policy initiatives for retirement savings and taxes and trade and energy and other curious that the national debt the federal reserve and how regulatory developments can affect companies sectors. And even the entire markets. Mike and his gas offer actionable insights to help you make sound financial decisions. Download the latest episode at subscribe at schwab dot com slash washington wise. Or wherever. you listen. Look and let me just ask you know since we are so deep into this pandemic and you are dating coach when clients are are calling you right now. What kind of problems are they bringing to you. Yes i mean. I think it's all really scary. And i'm definitely hearing from so many people who feel like they lost a year of their lives and their behind. You know they're dating clock is ticking and all of these things. Logan is the author of how to not die alone and so we asked her to give sarah a little bit coaching about what she should do. Hi sarah logan. I actually feel really honored to be meeting you right now because i feel like were meeting at a time where you are looking at all of the relationship possibilities and seeing a whole new world unfold for yourself. Why don't you tell me a little bit more. Just about your dating history. My dating history has been pretty much serial monogamy witch has usually been good except in a few of the relationships. I think what is. Probably the most significant is that for whatever reason i've had a very low libido my whole life to the point where like for a while i was thinking maybe uneven like a sexual That was the cause of the end of of one of my relationships And then with matthew. Like a big thing that dawned on me is maybe my traditional relationship model is not for me like maybe i just go into old age dating and i get married and What would that be like. And so now my just like blown with all kinds of different options. And i feel overwhelmed and and sad. Obviously that was super helpful. Thanks for sharing that. I thought that you were going to say something like the tango. Was this ongoing four. Play and that you built up a lot of sexual desire for him and that when you actually consummated the relationship you know it was this relief and it sounds like the sexual part. Actually that pleasurable or comfortable for you. Yeah that's correct. it was it was really just. Didn't wanna say no one hurts and her what was happening. So i feel like there's definitely a world in which you can say something to him like. I've loved what we've built together. I feel like i can be my authentic self around you. But i'm not actually that sexual of a person and i essentially want to go back to where we were before which is having a really deep emotional bond but expressing that to you physically isn't what feels right for me. We had discussed because we'd had an altercation about the sex and he'd he'd gotten quite defensive he had said Let's have sex four more times and and that will be the end otherwise we are going to get to entangled in miss and it will hurt our dance like future. And i was like yes right like there's an end But then the end never really came. How long ago did you guys have that confidence january okay. So so it's three or four months ago. Yeah and clearly it is like it was like flew the coop in the brain For for him and for both of us this brings up a really important thing to think about. Which is when you break up with someone even if you do it the nicest way possible. It's pretty likely that they're going to take it as a personal rejection. And so you have to anticipate that and think about what you wanna say. I s era that pretend she was talking to matthew into practice. What she would say if he told her that he felt really hurt that she wanted to stop sleeping with him. And just befriends Matthew i have never had sex that wasn't directly linked to love and long term monogamy and. It's confusing for me for us to be doing this. When you know you've made it clear that that's not an option and i don't think our lives are going in the same direction and if we continue to have sex i feel like love is gonna get really entangled complicated in this for me and that's going to hurt our dance relationship and friendship. Logan what do you think yeah. I think it's good to think through what it will look like when he takes up a smaller part of your life but how to make sure that it's still something that makes you feel good and that you feel like you were part designer of what the next phases I think like the heavy hammer of of reality. Just hit a little bit harder In a good way. And i guess instead of feeling like i'm left behind or abandoned or board or sad i could miraculously conjure some hope. There's something else out there for me that could be fulfilling the first step toward successfully. Getting over someone is changing the narrative in your head instead of thinking of this a break-up for a loss it's important to remind yourself after a year of having very little control of our own lives. We're now getting this opportunity to decide what we want to do and to change things for the better. I just want to acknowledge that there is this human tendency towards loss and that the loss of something we experienced it as twice as painful as sort of the gain of the equivalent thing right so if you lost one hundred dollars you'd have to gain two hundred dollars to sort of overcome that emotion and so right now all you can see what you're losing but what's going to happen is you'll climb this mountain of a break up and it will be awkward and it'll be painful and you'll regret it but on the other side of that is what you can build instead and you just can't see it. Yeah but to get to the other side of that mountain. You need a plan. Specifically a break-up plan. Logan says the first step in developing this plan is figuring out why you want to end this relationship and so the first step is recording your reasons for wanting the break-up and a big reason to do that is that after breakup. When you're alone people often regret doing it and they slide backwards and they regress. But i actually would write a letter to yourself about why. This is not the right relationship for you. The second thing is giving yourself a deadline and say i. I'm going to have this conversation with matthew by a certain date and so for you. What do you feel like that date could be probably a the sooner the better like maybe this weekend. Okay so you've written down while you're breaking up and you've given yourself a deadline next. Tell someone what you're gonna do. So who's your accountability partner going to be the person who's gonna hold you during the break up on sunday. Are you willing to be you. I get. I get a lot of emails about a lot of things there. I'm happy to be this person for. Okay yes believe okay all right so. My accountability partner is logan. I promise to and now you have to put something on the line. If you don't meet your deadline. The example i given the book is this is a real one. My accountability partner is seth. I promise to publicly post. My last three porn searches. If i don't meet a deadline Okay i my accountability. Partner is logan and i promise to not submit my final paper and therefore potentially Fail my course. If i don't do this on sunday. Great okay. that's a good one. Yeah logan's next up is preparing what you're going to say like. You should make an outline of a script of exactly what you're going to say because this is a really emotional conversation right. It's easy to say the wrong thing or did not clear enough. You had the conversation. You're broken up but you are not done yet. Because you're going to have to go home to an empty house. Which brings us to the next step. Make an immediate post break-up plan for yourself. So where are you going to go after this conversation on sunday when you're probably gonna feel a little raw. I'm going to a friend's birthday party okay. Great and then. What are some activities that you really enjoy doing that. Help them who you are things that maybe you didn't do when you are with this person. What are a couple things you'll do during those first few days because there is there any reward. You're getting from your relationship that once it's gone we need to find another way to give it to you. Yeah i didn't really put two and two together until just now But i think one thing that i've really gotten from the sexual aspect. Is you know when. I go over to dance practice. I put on makeup. And i like luther my wardrobe and i select something that's pretty and and i think that that's that's huge for me to just feel Attractive you know and so maybe you know just getting really dressed up and going grocery shopping. I think it's great. I think it's great so sarah has a break. But she still looking for ways to meet other people to share her life with when we come back. Logan has some suggestions about how to make that happen to really. 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Anytime anywhere you deserve to feel happier and head spaces. Meditation made simple go head. Space dot com slash. How to that's head space so how to for a free one-month trial with access to head spaces full library of meditations for every situation. This is the best deal offered right now. Head to head space dot com slash. How to today. We're back with our expert. logan urine. Sarah who originally wrote to us at how to its dot com. Which you know if you have a problem. Romantic or otherwise. You can do the same thing in email us anytime. Sarah's next goal is to find a person or or even a group of people who she can really bond with and rely on and logan's familiar with having to build a community because there was this period just recently where she really needed one herself. It all started with how she met her husband. I hosted an alumni lunch at google where we both work and he came and i said i am trying to learn the coding language are and he said i just dropped out of a phd program. Where i wrote are every day. I'll tutor you and for a year. He tutored me. But i wasn't interested and i was chasing this guy. I met at burning man who was very not interested in me and i actually went to dating coach myself and she was like. How do you want the person you're with to make you feel and i said desired competent attractive appreciated and bernie man guy was not giving me any of that but this guy at work was over time their friendship got closer knit and morphed into this great relationship and then he was diagnosed with bone cancer. They got married just a few days before doctors amputated his leg right below the knee and he started around of really really strong therapy and it was just so isolating during the pandemic and i felt so alone and he couldn't really have visitors in the hospital. It was just really challenging and this opportunity came our way to move into this fourteen person. Commune in that are very close. Friends had started and we ended up moving in there and it felt like lights turning on after a long time. Being in the dark the commun- provided with logan calls other significant others. And these are people in our life who fulfil discreet roles that we need that our partners either cannot or are not interested in fulfilling and so i have somebody in the house who i talked to about corporate politics. Because scott's not interested in that. I have a friend who i do. Daily exercise with the more friends and community members that a couple has to reach out to fill these so rolls the happier. The couple is more successful. They are in their relationship even the more sex that they have because they're really not putting all of the pressure on one person to where all these different hats and it lets the relationship sort of breathe and play the role that it's most comfortable playing. So how concerned meet the people who had played these other significant others in her life. There's this expression your vibe attracts your tribe. And i do think that there is a tribe waiting for you. You just have to figure out where they hang out and you actually have to approach them and begin to build this new community that you're really craving and so you put on your makeup because that makes you feel good and you buy tickets and you go to this event and you say. I'm not going to leave this event until i've one person's phone number and not a romantic partner but somebody who i can go to the next event with. What do you think about that. Sarah i think what really makes it have on for me. Is this idea of not leaving until i get. Someone's phone number because going to the event has never been a problem but actually starting a conversation with someone has okay. So here's the rule for rebuilding your life. After break-up focus on finding friends and making friends is like dating. You're only going to get better at it if you actually put yourself out there. I think a big issue that i have is like really high friend expectations like they have to be fun. They have to be smart and they have to have free time and it. You know what. I mean And so when it comes to making a new friend. I in my mind. I was already kind of like well. What's the likelihood like. I could meet a neighbor. But they're probably going to be mildly annoying. Or how do i. How do i lower my expectations and yet still feel so fulfilled and not be like a nutjob about it. trust me. This is something that i've struggled with a lot. I maybe i have a friend. Who's my yoga buddy. And she's really great to do yoga with. But actually when i ask her for advice she just centers herself and i don't really feel hurt and so she's going to be my yoga friend and i have this other friend that i can have deep conversations with which is actually not that reliable. So i'm never gonna make a plan with her. That involves going to an activity at a specific time. And i think if you can just be more realistic about the fact that nobody's perfect including you and that you can have friends that fulfill different roles in your life. Think you'll take the pressure off themselves and take the pressure off of you to find this perfect friend awesome. Yes and one other things are that will add is to make a friend you have to be a frat and so how can you show up for these people. How can you add value to their lives. How can you be selfless. How can you be generous guide. And so it's the same advice. I'd give to somebody dating which is in order to choose the right person you also have to be somebody worth choosing and so what are all the ways that you can really be the friend you wanna have. Yeah and i think. I think that's like it when you had said Your vibe attracts your tribe. But i think that really landed for me in terms of like i'm the one that can be playful for others and i'm the one that can uplift others and i'm the one that can You know make someone laugh when they're not feeling great. Like which is a something. I've always sought out but i can be that person to this leads to our last step for building a life. After a break-up get to know yourself figure out what you really need and what you can give to other people and ask yourself. Are you getting in your own way when it comes to friends or dating. Logan actually has a framework to help you figure out if you're undermining yourself. The framework is called the three dating tendencies and each one suffers from unrealistic expectations and the romanticize has unrealistic expectations of relationships. They think that when you find the right person it's going to be effortless as though the issue at the romanticized when they do find someone in it. Hits that inevitable rough patch. They think well must not be my person or else it would be so easy and then the maximize our has unrealistic expectations of their partner. And this is the person who always wonders. How could i find someone better. And then the third type is the hesitate or and this is the person who has unrealistic expectations of themselves and so they don't even put themselves out there because they think oh. I'm not loveable yet. I'm not ready to date. I'll be ready to date. When i lose ten pounds when i have a more impressive job and so for the hesitate is about. How can they overcome some of this fear. And how can they actually get out there and start dating again. Do any of those sound like you sir yeah. I think A combination probably of the of the maximize and the has and the and the has tater that last one. Yeah on this call definitely sounded like you had a lot of the hesitate or qualities so logan. How do we use that knowledge to help ourselves. Yeah so for the hesitate or it's really. Don't wait date you know. We do the same process that we did around. The break-up where you say. I wanna start dating within three weeks. Here's my accountability partner. And then do what you need to do to get those dates and it might be downloading apps. It might be going to an event. It might be asking friends for an introduction but really understanding that the sooner you can get out there. The sooner you'll start learning. What kind of person you want to be with and the sooner you'll get better at the skill of dating. Yeah oh my gosh. It just takes so much time to date but all get out there. I think the answer here is to date like a scientist and really experiment. One thing. that's an advantage about not being focused on having kids. Is you don't really have this fertility deadline and you do have some time and i think if you focus on experimentation versus. I'm thirty six. I should already know this. Then you'll really allow yourself to be surprised okay. I think that's great advice. Thank you so. Sarah you had reached out to us because you. You weren't certain how to end this. This friend with benefits relationship. Do you feel like. We've we've helped you solve that problem. Definitely i feel like through the conversation. I've discovered the the issue ending. Things with matthew is probably ten percent of of what i was struggling with. An what. I was really struggling with the fear of the empty void Left in his wake. And and now it's kind of i love missions and challenges. So now it's kind of you know your vibe attracts your tribe. Tried to get a phone number. I think i just need like a maybe a margarita and a lot more bravery That's going to be my mo for awhile. Thank you so much to sarah for sharing her story with us and thank you to logan yuri for her fantastic advice. You should definitely check out her book how to not die alone and a quick update from sarah. Hi this is sarah of new my update so i did follow through on the weekend as we discussed and talked to through my dance partner. I was really surprised. Actually by how effortless it was for me to do. And i think really. It's because the time we took on. That call was the foundation. That i needed the prep-work to understand. It really wasn't about what i was losing with him. But rather than i had a whole new world to explore. So i'm just really grateful for your advice and for your time. Thank you so much sara. I'm so glad we can help. And if you like this episode you should definitely check out another one titled how to fall out of love which is about a woman who is head over heels for her best friend who is not at all interested in a romantic relationship with her so she learns how to trick her brain into moving on. And if you'd like to support how do i hope you'll consider signing up for slate. Plus italy one for the first month and you'll get zero adds an all slate podcasts. Including this one design up go to slate dot com slash. How to plus how. To's executive producer is derek. John rachel allen rosemary. Belsen produced a show our theme. Music is my hannah's brown and remixed by mary jacob technical david epstein. Who will be here next. Week is right now. Probably hanging out with his other significant podcasts. Just we're totally exclusive. I'm charles duhig. Thanks for listening. Hello how to listeners. Thanks for sticking around. And i hope you enjoy this conversation. With one of the talented winemakers we've partnered with for your slate wine club to hear felix other interviews and to learn more about our premium selections. Check out the slate wine club. Wherever you listen to podcasts. Welcome to the sleet wine club. I'm felix salmon and you may know me as the host of sleet money or guide to the business and finance news of the week. But i am also as many sleep. Money listeners will remember a bit of a wine. Love him. And i like drink wine. I like to talk about wine. I like to think about wine and really underneath everything i like. The storytelling of wine. I really think that wine is about stories and memory and experiences and the idea idea of transporting yourself to a different place. These are the things that the heart of the snake wine club. It's not about tasting notes and tannin's and lactic fermentation micro oxygenation than that kind of thing. It's about place people and stories and just getting to enjoy a variety of claiming winds and learning about them flim. These expert winemakers often who've been making wyans no just themselves in families for hundreds of years and these stories ruling. Help me enjoy. Why no hope you enjoy wine before we talk to today's winemaker. You probably want to know why you should join the club and how to become a member of it. So as sleet wine club member you'll get expertly. Curated selections of premium wines made by some of the world's best winemakers each shipment includes three bottles unique high quality wines. Delivered right to your door. Enjoining is easy. Just text sleet two eight seven eight. Seven seven sleet that's s. l. e. two eight seven eight seven seven seven five two eight three once you receive your wines. You'll be able to each one while listening to an interview with the talented white and mingka who crafted it. And that's exactly what we're doing today with alex mcgregor. Alex is kind of guy that you call when you wanna do something. Maybe a little bit new not involve like radical field blends field blend is basically what you just take all of the grapes in the field and put them all together no matter what they are and it can be spectacular because it's really close to nature. It's in many ways to purest expression of terroir. So john fetzer hired. Alex gave him improper budget. Lots of independence and gave him time to experiment and twenty years later here. We are with saraceno benchmark in mendocino which is an very coming part of northern california wine country. Alex mcgregor welcome. Thank you tell me about santa. And where is it. Sarah's in hop land california which is in the heart of mendocino county were about twenty five miles from the coast as the crow flies heavy about the climate is it looks a fog and winds and cold temperature gradients climate changing unfortunately or fortunately so our fog influences diminishing every year and we do get a high and low shift of up to fifty degrees a day for example. We had ninety during the day last week. End forty nighttime temperatures. Which is fairly now. What does that do to the vines. There's a story it's definitely a story. From california makers about warm days and cool evenings retaining natural acidity and it has legitimacy era county. We cool off quickly and to an extreme and so with fingers like the one. I just described you alone us. Which is the oldest soviet block in the country dry. Farmed had pruned legitimately. These temperatures help it retain. Its acidity almost to a fault. Where the winds are burning on european with acid levels which is my preference verging on the european heaven and forbid and dry farmed means. You don't surrogate it. You just leave these poor struggling vines to fend for themselves exactly. It's tough love another story. That i think has legitimacy with older material like this fingered in particular they do struggle but you end up with nato say much much lower yields than a modern commercial sogno blunt things and it's just like tomato vine fewer tomatoes on the sweeter and tastier juicier. They are the same thing. Applies to grapevines is true. For all of your wines your old vines soviet blunt 'no recurrently replanting vineyards at the property. The being changed ownership within the last two years when the owner changes like how much of differences that make in this case a massively positive. One is passionate. He sees the potential in the property sees the potential in mendocino county which is rustic would be the sexy terminology for were napa valley. Twenty five years ago. we're still relatively rural. And we're not deluge with traffic congestion. Millions of people. You're not stepping back in time. But there's a more authentic experience to county full of economy-class i e cantankerous fourth-generation farmers that are fun to hang out with and when i've taken some of the vendors source fruit from that are not used to standing in say vines. That are seventy five years old. It's magical and their eyes light up and they all say the same thing. I would love to make wine figured like this. And that's part of the appeal lucky County still. I have a bottle here at says. Old soul vintage two thousand eighteen. This is a field blend right. You just take all of the wind and the field knicks. A bunch of different grapes. Yes by design design. There's some field blend components in it. There are some single varietal. Zenit this mold bind zinfandel. There's old bind teat sarah. There's younger mullebeck in it. There's some ancient vine carignan and that carrying vineyard is a field blend of caring. Young rinpoche is one great friday that we never not sure would. It is a mix of whites injure planted amongst the reds. About two hundred fifty french lombardo. Vines it's quite uni mentioned something interesting there there's old vines and then there's ancient fines was the difference between an old vine an engineer and nothing semantics my language i would say nothing. Ancient ancient is good. So how many fields does this wine come from in total off the property here. There are five different blocks and comes off of and then finkel kasa verde greenhouse. Not too clever says what it is and abandoned greenhouse. Say ten ten to twelve different blocks. Wow and so that's where you come in. You're choosing the blocks. You'll bring them all together. You're picking whitfield's which plans and you're trying to create something magical at the end of it. Tell me what's the vision for this sophisticated. Peasant wine is the fourth. I'd like it to be not incredibly polished and sophisticated at the same time and also to evoke some of these old binds and to make you want to have a second glass or split a model at lunch with your best friend okay. I'm going to open this guy up. Do you have a coke javon opinion on closures. I do 'cause certainly the most sustainable that's important and it's traditional. I was a civilian courts. I love that sound. Good sound yup. All right let's see how sophisticatedly peasant this is guiding over here as well. You should know this to me. This absolutely smells of california. This is unmistakably californian wine on the haven't even tasted it yet because it's warm is warmth and they've just put it into the glass and i was like. Oh yeah. I remember sitting out on the porch in napa like fifteen years ago. You know how it smell memory loss much longer than any other and it just takes you straight bag. It does remain. I guess it's also zinfandel. Which i honestly don't know if i ever drink zinfandel from anywhere other than california. So what am i looking for in this wine tasting sunshine california sun. There you go blacks and batanes some tannen and so the tannin is intentional. As i said sophisticated and peasant at the same time i think ten is important of were drifting away from ten in red wine making generally and i think it's a mistake. It's just because of the way just wind for example would work with the lunch. We're gonna share. What am i eating with this win. Something with mushrooms something with probably animal protein certainly not barbecue thrown out too often. It could be. But i see roast beef. Wellington a beef. Wellington will be delicious wine. Yes i love is a lot of work but if you get someone else to make it for you. It's listen agreed. Just looking at the back of the bottle here says fourteen point seven percent. This is a pretty big one. Alcohol was it's not silly right. But the core of it is infant. Dell and bets california you can tame the beast some extent but picking zinfandels to come in mid thirteen's. You're not going to get that core iron zinni fruit that you get when you're picking it more potential alcohol's like fourteen five fourteen six so i make no apologies for our soviet Thirteen point one are as twelve point five. So it's representative of the wine. I am intentionally trying to lower alcohol. Content across the board with all of our wines have been doing so for the last ten years but the core of this one was. Infidel has got to be in that sort of sweet spot. How do you do that. Because i mean ultimately it's those ninety degrees days right they just get that really ripe alcohol a lot of the things that i source from are not on wires of jealous. Can't be flops over. And so a lot of that throat is protected. Most of the zinfandel the we grow head pruned to means the fruit. Never sees the sun. The sexy winemaking terms dappled light. That and intentionally picking perhaps slightly lower sugars sourcing out raisins so when we picked him the dump taylor. We run it over a antique sorting and michael cole. A judicious amount of raisins off of clusters to keep the sugars. moderate. So the tannin's i guess is the peasant bit. Yeah tannin and there's also pretty pronounced acidity in it. It's not a low acid red wine say california but i think textually you're drifting more into italy. Tell me about acidity in red wine. What does it do to the wine across more. And it causes the wind to linger more in your mouth or makes you want to go back to have especially if you're having the meal you say that it's going out of favored. Why would people not one acidity in that one. But tana's well. There was a trend to make wines very rich and very ripe and very soft and sometimes a little bit sleet and does a shift back towards acidity and tannin be okay in wine. A lot of that's happening in your neck of the woods in brooklyn new york city. Thanks to a lot of great wine bars. In some ways that are bringing back more traditional producers. Lots of interesting wines from all over italy southern france that aren't afraid to not be incredibly. Soft enrich and voluptuous. Enter a remarkable because something a little bit rough little bit a little bit like your feet dizzy a little bit. Let ask you three questions. Number one is white burgundy the greatest wine in the world yes owner no took a while to come out with that one. I had like you've had many many many great wiper. I worked with david ramey for the first eight years of the project here at saraceno and he was sort of a progenitor of bringing white burgundy technique to california with barrel fermented unbelievably delicious chardonnays. And i've tasted a lot of great byford knee with david him with other associates and friends so there have been some real epiphanies but there are so many other regions that are on the same level. I would say so. It's hard to pick one region there any other reasons on the same level that in the new old mendocino county mendocino county. There you go represent next question. Do you have a dog who helps make this. One dog did not other dog. We have l. parkas alpacas. Yes in the mail is called music. Man i've actually stuck. It lasts in front of his face to see what would happen. And it's been radio silence so far it's not but not a whole lot of health. I've never had a wine made with the help of now back. So i i'm not gonna thank music man but this wind because clearly he had absolutely nothing to do with eggs at for looking at it through doleful is and finally which podcast should i be listening to you when i drink this when i see your own wow little self reflection. Yeah and just going. Oh my god that was a stupid thing to say you one of those people who's okay listening to the sound of your own voice. It doesn't bother you. I used to just like it immensely. And i have got used. I think this is it. This is my way of learning to come to terms with my own. Voice is to drink old soul mendocino county red wine blend from vineyards while listening to my own podcast. And i do that for long enough. I will associated with the sound of my own voice with delicious slightly rustic italianate red wine for mendocino county and that will be a lovely connection right there. It couldn't hurt. So thank you again to alex mcgregor for joining us today and telling us all about his two thousand eighteen old soul. If you're not a member of the sleet wine club already. Joining is easy text. Sleep do eight seven eight seven seven seven five two eight three to set up your first shipment and you'll be well on your way to enjoying premium wines not to mention developing a better appreciation for the expert winemakers who fill out glasses.