45. How to Free the 90s Bitch
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You know, Tony Morrison and Alice Walker won Pulitzer prizes for women's centered fiction. And it just felt like women were ascending. Lady. Nine. Right on. Hey and welcome to lady like the show that finds out. What happens when women break the rules? I'm caroline. I'm Kristen and Caroline you. And I have a lot in common with today's guest. Alison yaro. We all grew up in the south in the nineties with all of its girl power glitz and butterfly clips. But we were also kind of sheltered from feminism, and that sense of rising gender equality with, you know, like women go into space and making waves in politics arts culture. Yeah. Like, I did not know until talking to Allison the nineties were supposed to be the so-called decade of women. Yeah. I hadn't really thought about it either. But a few years ago when Alison started taking a closer look at what was happening for women while we were girls what really went down during that decade of women stunned her got really excited to say like, oh, look at all of these. 's major news stories that were really about women and the closer. I started to look at all these stories, I realized that the major stories of the nineties. Yes, they were about women, but they were about making women into bitches almost every last one of them and that was shocking. Alison, deep dives into that shocking discovery in her book, nineties, bitch, media, culture, and the failed promise of gender equality and Allison's book really couldn't come at a more relevant time considering Caroline. We are barreling towards twenty twenty like it's nineteen ninety nine from chokers, clueless, fashion and cassette tapes at urban outfitters to women like Anita hill, Monica Lewinsky and Lorena Bobbitt back in cultural conversations, like it's all about the nineties these days. Yeah. So today Allison's taking us on a kind of feminist nineties. Nostalgia trip to reckon with that recent history and the women who made it all. Find out why the suppose a decade of women become all about the bitches and what can nineties bitch affiliation teaches about American women today. What is the most unladylike thing about you? Well, I mean slopping somebody in the face is pretty unladylike. So what was so offensive that Alison slap? Somebody will be word. That's what the first time. Someone called me a bitch. I slapped her in the face, and I was a teenager. I was young teenager. And you know, I think we were at a party where people were drinking, and I just I had such a reaction to that word. I knew that it was like the worst word that you could call a woman and just reared back in slapped her in the face. And you know, I was so ashamed I felt like I had violated the code of femininity by resorting to violence. I didn't realize that the time but looking back on that experience. It was clear to me that I had really internalized perfect girl narratives and nineties bitch affiliation. What else? And means by nineties bitch of occasion, is the way the media of the day. Twisted practically every headlining woman into some kind of bitch and understand all this. We've got to look back at what the decade was telling and selling both, women and girls. Yeah. Because they were very different messages for girls. It was all about like, Lisa Frank stickers. Maybe watching the craft at sleepovers or playing a little game called girl talk. Played win playing girl talks to his more sophisticated. The game of truth there day. Gross. Never take ticker. Okay. So that commercialism from nineteen ninety-five and by the end of the nineties girl talk had been taken over by girl power or do. You mean, go power what kind of kid were you in the nineties, and by that I mean, which Spice Girl were you inch Spice Girl. Oh, that's so good. I wanted to be baby spice, but absolutely was not baby spice. I read teen magazines like teen and seventeen and YM. I wasn't cool enough to read sassy it hadn't reached me and making Georgia. But you know, I braided friendship bracelets, and like courted, Victoria, secret catalogues and really was seduced by the myth of the perfect girl. That was pedaled everywhere in the nineties. Did you have American Girl dolls? I had Samantha manza mantha. She was perfect. Right. I was going to ask how how you would describe that perfect nineties girl. Maybe beyond doll houses the perfect nineties. Girl was thin. She was blonde. She was white. She didn't have any flaws. And so that that kind of girl was really, pedaled and magazines. She was who use Aw, wearing the clothes in the dealers catalogs, and in the magazines, and she really was someone who seemed to achieve perfection without any work. Alison, I was just going to ask you if the perfect girl was Delia 's same model Sam because I distinctly remember my introduction to the concept of Thyge app. Coming through the deal is swimsuit issue and seeing all of those thin. Girls and looking at my own body and thinking, oh, no one of these is not like the other. Yeah. That really resonates with me too. They really were very thin, and, you know, those models and models in most of the teen magazines. We grew up reading they didn't have bodies that were diverse. They didn't have roles they didn't have Seig apps and real women have those bodies in other words, girl, power promise that we could be anything we dreamed of. But what that perfect girl ideal looks like in the media was very white thin economically advantaged in the perfect woman ideal looked pretty much the same except nobody was encouraging like woman power. So your book is called nineties bitch. What does bitchiness have to do with nineties women in particular? It's so funny when I am introduced to people when I when I talk to people about this book and people look at the title immediately. They say, oh, I'm nineties bitch or sometimes. Men will say, oh is that about my ex wife? So 'nineties bitch. The bitch part of it is not actually a reclamation of the term the history of the word really reduces women to their sexual function two dogs and heat begging for men in the nineties. The word bitch was pretty universally used to malign objectify and dismiss women. And if it wasn't the word bitch. It was absolutely. The suggestion of the word bitch. It was very clear or as Allison writes in her book quote stories of notable women from the nineties almost invariably suggests they were sluts whores trash proves Rodham maniac. Sycophants idiots frauds emasculated, nutcrackers dykes. And suck. You buy. Yeah. Was settled saying a bitch by any other name so women during the nineties they were often referred to as bitches four taking up space for being people that were reported on that was enough to render pretty much any woman bitch. The only difference between them was what kind are. All right. Caroline's oh, there are a few major types of nineties bitches that Allison's going to introduce to us because bitch affiliation was a real shape. Shifter? It was pretty impossible to escape if you so much as step to pinkie toe out of your lady like lane. Yeah. I mean, according to Allison women could get slammed as bad mom's damaged goods cat fighters. Double bind bitches and the villain slash victim. So a first category, the bad mom. Allison says is basically the woman who's trying to have it all by any means necessary. Someone who is perceived to like saunter off to a high powered job wall leaving it to, you know, domestic workers or other women to do the work of motherhood of raising their kids, that's sort of the bad. Mom bitch. An important piece of context here is the nineties when the number of working women peaked in one thousand nine hundred nine sixty percent of American women were working and believe it or not that number has never been as high sense. But the higher up the umbilical ladder mums climbed the more sexist scrutiny awaited them Allison's case in point lawyer Zoe Baird, she was nominated for the president's cabinet. She would have been the first woman attorney general had she not been felled by nannygate. So she was nominated and. Then it was revealed that she had paid care off the book, she hadn't paid taxes on her child care or Zoe Baird isn't been trouble. She'd been rightly radio. Rush Limbaugh shared his hot take in nineteen Ninety-three. She hired some illegal aliens to take care of her kids. Now, she only makes six hundred sixty thousand dollars. As Cokie Roberts have ABC says she had the best line that kind of money. She could hire Mary Poppins. What does she out there? Was really striking was that. No other cabinet member or nominee had been asked about their child care decisions at all none of the men, and then we come to find out later that one of the men in the president's cabinet had actually also paid a domestic worker off the books had not paid taxes. Just like Zoe Baird did but he was able to keep his position and she wasn't nominated at all next up. We've got the damaged goods bitch. These are women who start out innocent at girls and wind up tarnished by overt sexualization drugs or mental illness think Princess, Diana. She not only committed the ultimate Royal sin of divorce. But in nineteen ninety five she went public about her experiences with eating disorders, depression and self harm during her marriage, and that kind of openness might be appreciated on social media today. But with that interview Princess Di was recast as conniving blonde. Bombshell less Royal, but no less my fav-. There's damaged goods bitch Fiona apple. She was you know, someone who because of her controversial music video in which she's kind of riding around the carpet, not wearing a lot of close their accusations in the music press that she was bratty and entitled and she was making child pornography 'cause she was barely dressed. Here's FINA being interviewed on MTV in nineteen ninety nine people. Think of you. Depends on where they were looking if they were going to a lot of shows and not really reading a lot. Then they probably had a lot true or view of me. What was the wrong headed view of you in your mind that I'm just like a sad Brad with no sense of humor. You know, what she was actually doing? She wasn't being sexual. She wasn't playing to the camera four the male gaze shoes. Shaming the male gaze with this video. She was saying how dare you look at me when I'm like this, you know, she had been very forthcoming in the press with her own experience with eating disorders. She told a music journalists about being raped self harm and eating disorders really came into mainstream consciousness in the nineties as sort of the primary afflictions of that perfect girl dealiest model ideal. But sometimes the violence was more public which brings us to the next bitch category. The cat fight. So do oh who get caught up in fighting each other. Instead of you know, the patriarchy and the most iconic cat fighters the nineties were none other than Olympic ice skating. Teammates, turned enemies. Tonya Harding, and Nancy Kerrigan and the story of Tonya Harding, and Nancy carryanne is that they were both figure skaters pursuing you know, spots on the Olympic team. And Tonya Harding was accused of hitting Nancy Kerrigan with a club and running away. I can't believe it. I mean, why does someone want to discredit me? I mean, will you ship rich? Some of these ludicrous is totally ludicrous. Has been Jeff dilly and bodyguard. Shawn Eckardt, we're involved, and she knew it. She admitted it just days later. I have no knowledge. Of the plan to salt finance Kerrigan. When I returned to that story. I had remembered that Tonya Harding, actually, hit Nancy Kerrigan, which is not what happened at all. But I had remembered it as Tanya hitting Nancy, and I think that's because the narrative around them in the nineties really just desired the catfight, Nancy. Kerrigan was also bitch applied to because when she won the silver medal in the Olympic Games that year, she was accused of losing gold. You could tell she was visibly bummed out to win that silver right as well. Yeah. And she was also caught on a hot Mike at DisneyWorld saying this is so dumb. This is so stupid when she was in a parade during a parade Kerrigan complain to Mickey Mouse, it's so corny so dumb. I hate it. We have an attitude problem here. So there was actually like if you can believe there was actually a column in the Washington Post. The headline was is Nancy a bitch question. I should find that. Because my mom's name is Nancy. Okay. So that's bad. Mom's damaged goods and catfights. What's next? The double bind bitch. So in one thousand nine hundred five researcher, Kathleen hall Jamieson coined this term double bind to describe the patriarchal catch twenty two feminine gender roles and ambition. Yes, thank Janet Reno. Marcia Clark like any woman reaching for masculine coded power had better TOA feminine line or risk becoming the alternate. Double bind bitch will Hillary Clinton's. Original sins were really in the nineties. I think the way that we have come to think of Hillary Clinton dates back to two things, and it's really her sitting next to her husband in nineteen Ninety-two after the Super Bowl in a sixty minutes interview defending against charges of infidelity. You know, I'm not sitting here. Some little woman standing by my may and lactate me wine it I'm sitting here because I love him. And I respect him. And I honor what he's been Hillary Clinton made this Tammy Wynette comment and people really didn't like it. They didn't like the idea that she wouldn't be sitting next to her man like Tammy Wynette, and then just a few weeks later. She made that infamous cookies comment a reporter asked her about being a professional lawyer. I suppose I could've stayed home and baked cookies and had teas, but what I decided to do was to fulfill my profession, which I entered before my husband was in public life, and that became the sound bite. There was much more that she said, but that little snippet became the soundbite and people were angry that she would shirk her domestic responsibilities in pursuit of a job her sort of make some voters uncomfortable. I feel that she's the power behind the throne. She's very aggressive woman. She's overly ambitious Carolina. I was totally aware of all the hill. Lary hate as as a kid. But of course, I wasn't aware of all the sexism behind. Oh, totally. It was the same in my house. Kristen and y'all when we come back we've got one more bitch category to tell you about at includes many of your nineties faves. You have been described as a Bimbo a stalker. Seductress Barbara Walters with Monica Lewinsky a woman, guaranteed a place in history. Don't go away. Support for today show comes from third. Love third. Love uses data points, generated by millions of women who have taken their fit finder quiz to design bras with breast size and shape in mind. 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We're back with journalist and nineties bitch, author Alison Yaro and y'all she's got one more bitch category to tell us about. But first Carolina we've got to make a detour and explain a little bit about the sexist soup that all these bitches were swimming in like, I think it's pretty clear by now the nineties was a contradictory decade when it came to women because you have both girl power. But also all this bitch backlash right? And Allison says that there was one key ingredient in that sexist soup bitch. If occasion was able to thrive in the nineties because of a very unique and profound media revolution, the twenty four hour news cycle so during and after the Persian Gulf war. There was this new infrastructure for storytelling that allowed the networks to tell the story of the war and to build an insatiable audience that could watch it all the time and many. Of them soon realized that it was far cheaper and more desirable even to cover Hollywood and politics and scandal than it was to cover war. It was this relentless around the clock. All the time story X rated an extraordinary. That's the way it's been all day long with millions glued to their network bosses. Couldn't have program the soaps with more gripping daytime with charges of sex lies and audio tapes. That's why we remember the bitch if occasion of nineties women, that's why their stories are just lodged in our consciousness, it's because he watched their stories for days and weeks and months and sometimes years, and that was really knew at the time. And we still haven't fully come to terms with how influential that was and how that shaped all of our. Our lives and understanding of these women and ourselves there's no better slash worse. Example of the power of the twenty four hour news cycle to bitch affi-, a woman than what happened with Monica Lewinsky fifteenth nineteen ninety five and that day, he found yourself along with Bill Clinton in the chief of staff office, and you lifted the back of your jacket, and you showed the president of the United States. Underway. Where did you get the nerve? Don't. Well, when I I found myself alone with him. I was I was very nervous and having small talk. And I remember thinking to myself. Okay. Well, this is it if this is going to happen. I mean, maybe should let him know you're interested. So I saw I blurted out. I have a crush on you. Just you. Yes. Would you think he's a good kisser? This nineteen hundred nine interview between Barbara Walters, and Monica Lewinsky is still one of the most watched TV interviews ever. Yeah. For comparison more than three times as many people tuned into it. Compared to Anderson Cooper, sit down with stormy Daniels and Carolina. I totally remember that Barbara Monica interview. Like, I wasn't allowed to watch it because my parents were totally scandalized by anything in the Clinton orbit. But Monica Lewinsky was practically all anyone was talking about and revisiting now the way she was openly slut shamed. Fat shamed. In vilified in the media. And really across the political spectrum is kind of a stoning and Kristen the vitriol spewed at Monica wasn't lost on young Allison either. We looked at someone like Monica Lewinsky and saw a woman young woman who is Embiid and bright and had a really covetable internship at the White House who was. Being called a slut on, you know, mainstream TV news, and in magazines. And so I think many of us myself included looked at her and said what what will happen to us. If we behave in ways that are similar to the ways that she behaved this whole cautionary tale of Monica Lewinsky fall squarely into our final bitch category. The villain slash victim. So these are women who are making headlines for violent and or sex related events. Women who are in reality victims, but get portrayed in the media as the villains. And so many of the heavy hitters from the nineties fall into this category, Anita hill arena Bobbitt, and the frankly unsurprising thing is this trope also shows up in Hollywood. Oh, yes, film after film hit theaters with a leading woman who was sexy deranged and not taking no for an answer. And she was Glenn Close in fatal attraction, I'm not going to be Noord and Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct, I have nothing to hood. And to me more disclosure, don't tell me you're scared of me and the through line for all of these characters is that they were manipulative and vindictive and potentially violent or actually violent and they were hype. For sexual. So you saw these these women, and they were often, you know, pursuing male attention. They were looking for sex with powerful men. And if anyone got in their way, they were going to get cut. There was another term for women like this. It was used at the time to talk about not only these fictional characters. But also women like Monica Lewinsky and other real life villain victims making news that word Arado maniac. Colloquially known as love sickness a rod ammonia also made it into the DSM the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, you know, the book mental health providers used for diagnosis. So okay. I had never even heard the term Arado mania before I got a hold of your book. So can you tell us what Arado mania is like how was that term being thrown around? Arado mania is a delusion a rare delusion disorder that really only applies to women suspiciously. It's when women are perceived to be. Obsessed with a man in an erotic way. And usually this man is someone who has more power or stature or money than the woman does. And so she is perceived to be kind of pursuing him for sex. But in the nineties really around the time that the film fatal attraction came out a Rodham mania began to sort of make its way from you know, psychology, this rare disorder in to the kind of mainstream consciousness because Arado mania was then also called fatal attraction type. And so you began to see women who made the news who appeared to threaten powerful men with their sexuality. Accused of being rata maniacs. Even though they had no real medical diagnosis. Yeah. It sounds just like it's another way to call a. Minna bitch. It's another way to dismiss women. But this time they're not just some, you know, bit choose maybe shrill and cold hearted. She's like over sexualize d- pathologists. He's a psycho bitch. Yeah. Absolutely. But what did it had this way of turning victims into perpetrators and perpetrators into victims? For instance, Monica Lewinsky's lawyer believes she was a certified Arado maniac who is suffering from an obsessive schoolgirl fantasy with the president. But before pathologising, Monica Arana mania came for a Nieta hill a moment when the term Arado mania and Arado maniac. Sort of saturated the consciousness was in nineteen ninety one. During the Anita hill hearings. When Clarence Thomas was nominated to the supreme court and one of his former employees Anita hill charged him with sexual harassment. She was called in a row maniac and the Senate Judiciary committee, actually engaged psychologist who his name was park. Dietz? He was very popular psychologist at the time. And he was the one who sort of suggested that hill wasn't Arado maniac that perhaps she had pursued Clarence Thomas sexually. She was interested in him, you know, sexually and he was not interested in her. And then later Clarence Thomas is wife, even wrote in people magazine that she thought Anita hill was a fatal assistant like the kind. Fatal attraction type, but but her husband's assistant is this where we then get the infamous description of Nita hill believe Penn by David Brock of a little bit nutty and a little bit slutty. I think it's certainly derivative from Arado maniac. Sexual harassment isn't about sex, but because need a hill was charging sexual harassment. She was accused of Arado mania. And I think it's really interesting, you know, Arado mania why is it such a gender diagnosis? You know, there are plenty of delusions disorders. But why does it sort of have to center around a woman's relationship to a man? And why can't it why can't men be diagnosed with Rodman ah, but the definition only applies to women. Do you feel that lorraina Bob it fits into the Arado maniac narrative? Yeah. Lorraina Bob it made the news for cutting off her husband's penis. And throwing it out of a common dough charged with maliciously wounded her husband John by cutting off his Pena's last June. We're in a Bob claims constant physical and mental abuse by her husband, drove her to an irrational impulse to harm him at this morning. Imagine the story really centered on the penis, it became a story about how men should fear women because women were actually perpetrators of violence, and if Lorena Bobbitt can do this to John Bobbitt, you know, you better sleep with like the covers really tight over your head at night or your wife's going to come in with a knife. And do something similar that was the that was a line of reasoning that you saw often in the nineties in response to that story. What lorraina story really was was a story about domestic violence and marital rape. Which many folks the time didn't even think existed the penis chopping happened after she had endured six years of cereal abuse in nineteen Ninety-four Virginia jury acquitted lorraina Bob it, but it's taken twenty five years and a new. Amazon documentary series for her narrative to be debate, you fide and publicly redeemed. So what do you think about Llerena baba kind of re-emerging in our cultural awareness today anytime that women from the nineties can have an opportunity to return now and be part of telling their own stories instead of having their stories just told for them and told in a sexist racist way and told wrong, it's absolutely progress and lorraina Bob, it is absolutely. I mean, I had lunch with her. And she's just a fascinating warm articulate person. And we really did not understand the contours and depths of her story in the nineteen nineties. I mean, her story is an immigrant story. You know, one of the ways that her husband, supposedly, tortured her is by threatening to get her deported. And she didn't know that. She didn't know whether or not he could actually do that. And she's she's so amazing because she's really out there sort of talking about all of these issues now, and she even is an advocate for domestic violence victims. And she's using her platform to know to reach people and to teach about domestic violence. Why? Now why I mean aside from some sort of cultural ninety is revival. Like why? Now, why are we talking about and redeeming women like Lorena Bobbitt, and Monica Lewinsky because we are just beginning to see how poorly they were treated in the nineteen nineties, and I still believe that we're doing too much sort of individual redeeming and not enough looking at all of these stories together. I mean, it's the same tropes over and over again. And the similarities are just so shocking that we have to look at all of these stories together to have a better sense of the narrative of sexism. And misogyny that shape the nineties, and that really still shapes our present moment. Thank you chairman Grassley in rank ranking member Feinstein members of the committee. My name is Christine Blasi Ford. More on our present moment when we come back. Anyone who's had a migraine knows that they are the absolute worst. Now, it's a little easier to treat your migraine from the comfort of your own home. Thanks to cove, cove, breaks down everything you need to know about migraines and migraine treatment start with a simple consultation by physician that's licensed to practice medicine in your state. Then once they determine which prescription is best for you cove sends it directly to your door reaches out a few weeks after to see how you're feeling all migraine medication prescribed by the doctors at cove is FDA approved if you suffer from migraines. Like, I do the last thing you need is to have to wait to see your doctor with cove. There's finally a way to get help when you need it. 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We also have the fact that they're closer so stinking cute and comfortable. So the next time y'all need to never take off pair of joggers because you don't leave the house either vote with your dollars where packed dot com. Enter the code unladylike checkout for twenty five percent off your first order. That's W E are. ACT dot com and the code unladylike. I am here today. Not because I want to be I am terrified I'm here. Because I believe it is my civic duty to tell you what happened to me while Brad Kavanagh, and I were in high school, we're back, and that was Dr Christine Blasi for testifying just last year, the Senate Judiciary committee about her alleged assault at the hands of now supreme court Justice, Brad Kavanagh, and it made us curious. What watching those hearings must have felt like for our guest. Alison Yaro who had just spent the past few years investigating all that bitch. Affiliation of Anita hill. It was so dispiriting. And I think it was it was really upsetting to kind of have to relive this through brick Cavanaugh and Christine Blasi Ford when we had really already done this in nineteen Ninety-one, but really people had forgotten. And so for them, I think, you know, it was one. Of those moments where you think you think gender parody exists, or perhaps, you know, sexism, doesn't and it's a real moment of of reckoning and of sadness that there is sort of a deep sexism and misogyny that still shapes our lives and our reality. But for Alison all this nineties bitch vu started well before the cavenaugh hearings. I was writing the book in tandem with Hillary Clinton running for the presidency in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen and so in many ways as was doing this research and finding all of these interesting new narratives, I was thinking to myself. No one is going to think that we need a history of ninety sexism now because Hillary Clinton is going to become the president of the United States and gender parody is going to be achieved. So it's going to erase sort of all of the history of sexism who is going to need. Understand this. And then when she lost, and it was clear that she lost because of a number of factors. But one of them was certainly a rival campaign of crude sexism, it became even more important to me to get this history. Right and to share it as widely as possible and Caroline, this is exactly the kind of history that we do need to have in our sight lines, and in the mainstream consciousness as much as possible as the next election approaches, it's a really interesting political moment for our country as we gear up for the twenty twenty election and the ways that the six women who have presented themselves as potential presidential candidates are being treated really echo the way that Hillary Clinton was treated in twenty sixteen and in two thousand eight they're still this sort of likeability gap. Cap. You know, this this sort of a morpheus idea that women should be likeable. If they're to be elected. It's still applies today to come on a Harris and Elizabeth Warren and the women who are out on the trail. One story that comes to mind is Senator Amy klobuchar alleging that she is, you know, horrible boss to work for and the response to it. I've heard has been both. That's totally sexist men are not covered this way. And hey, you know, what like how you treat your employees matters. And you know, women should not simply throw down the sexism card to deflect. What could be valid criticism? How do you strike that balance between not wanting to rebuild defy women and also leaving room for valid criticism of women. That's a really good question. Because just because sexism exists it doesn't mean that women are perfect or should be treated as such or held to different standards. But we have to recognize that when a story comes out about a politician like Amy klobuchar treating her staff poorly, we haven't you're right seen other stories about male politicians treating their stuff's poorly. And so when that's the case when we can see that women are being covered differently than men. Maybe this is just the twenty nineteen version of writing about women's clothes and hair and makeup and not writing about men's appearance on the campaign trail, we now know that that's incredibly sexist. We didn't know that so much in two thousand eight it's sort of had to be pointed out, and we had to learn that then we know it now, maybe this is a new version of that. When's the last time someone called you a bitch that you're aware of? At a book event. Yeah. So I was I was doing a book signing, and it was it was a rough one. I mean, they were just there. There are a lot of people who really weren't on board with what I was trying to communicate with this book. They didn't really believe sort of the bitch affiliation. Premise they really did believe things like Monica Lewinsky is to blame and Anita hill pursued Clarence Thomas sexually and was denied. And these were the kinds of lines of arguments that I was hearing. And yeah, there was just there is an older gentleman older, white gentleman who came over and picked up the book and looked at it. And it was like what is this? This is like right about yourself. You know, kind of that that I can't remember exactly. But it was definitely like he was like, oh, man. He's actually calling me a bitch Tam. Yeah. We're not quite there yet. Are we like in terms of? I mean, God anytime either a Monica Lewinsky tweets or be Monica Lewinsky's name comes up. At all in any capacity on Twitter. It is still the complete split between people who are glad that. She is resurfacing talking about victims rights, bullying and people who say she needs to sit down and shut up because she was that temptress back in the nineties. She is such a litmus test. I've done probably thirty book events every single event. There's at least one person who raises their hand and says, you know, I'm totally on board with everything you're saying, except I don't believe that Monica Lewinsky is victim. And I'm never going to believe that she was victim. So you mentioned at that particular book signing hell, you know, some of the folks were just kind of not getting it just in general, how has the book been received coming on the heels of the metoo movement and hashtag metoo people women are looking for ways to. Explain an understand the sexism that they've experienced in their lives in it can be helpful to look at a history that tells a story of sexism and to plug into that and say, these are also ways that I've experienced sexism in my life. What have we learned from this feminist nineties stall trip with Allison will a don't get blinded by girl power? There's probably some more insidious stuff underneath the surface and be don't take n the gender progress for granted. Yeah. I mean, the need to continually smash the patriarchy is so real, you know, and we saw this to in the back story of Alison writing nineties bitch because similar to how coming into the nineties people assumed it was going to be the decade of women leading up to the twenty sixteen presidential election. Alison, like a lot of us was assuming that we were simply on the cusp of making this gender progressive move to finally elect our first female president. And clearly when we start taking a quality for granted. We're just setting ourselves up to discover. How much more progress we still need to make sorta learn more about nineties bitches? Don't forget to pick up Allison's book, nineties, bitch, media, culture, and the failed promise of gender equality. You can get it online or anywhere in stores right now. In the meantime, tell us as your perception of nineties bitches changed over the past like well ever since the nineties. What does all that bitch vacation tell you about sexism and power dynamics today? And does it make you think any differently about this whole nineties revival? We're living through Email us at a low at unladylike dot co- or you can hit us up on the socials at unle- like media or join the condo in our Facebook group. And don't forget to stop our website unladylike dot co code check out our sources sign up for our weekly newsletter and pick up a copy of our book. Unladylike a field guide to smashing the patriarchy. And Clinton your space. Abigail kill is a senior producer of unladylike. Nora Richie is our associate. Juicer. Jonah? Palmer is our story editor and ash-stained IRS transcribes are tape. Our music is by Flamingo shadow. Eat made Cohen and serotypes and mixing sound design and additional music by Casey Holford are executive producers Chris Bannon and Jenny rattled mast in. We're your hosts Carolina Irvine and Kristen Konger next week. We're talking to a couple of eighties who aren't afraid to to their own horn the chief doctor came and and afterwards, and he said, well, why are you here? It looks to me like, you're some sort of elite athlete. That's sit. Actually, I'm a trombone player. Don't miss it. Make sure that y'all subscribe to unladylike in Stitcher. Spotify apple podcast, or honest, and just wherever you like to listen and remember got a problem. Get unladylike. The eighties was sort of promising us in these individual women who had received such great success that gender equality was coming. And we believed that and the nineties religious dashed that dream at least we got the Spice Girls we? Stitcher. Hi. I'm Alison Raskin. I'm Gabby done. We're not couple comedy duo. And we're also the host of the new Stitcher original podcast called just between us. It's a variety show about brutal, honesty, female, friendship and unsolicited advice. Think of us as your codependent besties just want you to live your best life. You might know us from our New York Times bestselling book, I hate everyone. But you New York Times best did, you know? Okay. I just wanted to. It's very very important. Okay. Keep going or to Janelle also called just between us, but on this show where sharing secrets answering listener questions and diving deep into serious topics like relationships mental health and sexuality to people of the same sex or in a relationship. One person is by is there layer of jealousy there or fear of like, you know, there's double the amount of temptation or something like that. There's a lot of BI phobia on both ends. But again by sexuality is about desire. It's not about action just between out. Listen, stitcher. Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.