Fashion and football
This week, we speak to one of the most influential figures in the world fashion. Former vogue fashion director, Tony Goodman. She tells us about her new memoir, also on the show more fashion, and where it meets football. We welcome Felicia pennant founder of season magazine. We're ready for kickoff on this week's edition of the stack. From Dory house in London. This is the stack thirty minutes of print industry analysis with me Tom Edwards coming up on the show. I'll be speaking with fish opponent from season. Beautiful title about the full game would focus on women's football. But before all that we speak to a legendary fashion director, who made history vogue magazine for some Tony Goodman, embodies American style, like few others. She's just released a new memoir points of view of beautiful time about her life and career. Monaco's fares. Nando go check. Oh, spoke to Tony about the book and how she first entered the fashion industry. I did start out his model. It was by default. I must say in the book, I tell the story of being in tenth grade in high school and looking for a summer job. And my parents were very good friends with alert, who is at that time, the editor in chief of mine was now magazine, and men, wisdom accident, does not exist. Any longer. It was like the baby vogue, who's very sophisticated. But it had a younger audience. And it had a younger price point for all of the clothes, and it had wonderful tall rivers. He that summer said, whoa. I don't have anything to offer you, but, you know, you're tall and skinny wanted. You see if you can model. And so I did. He sent me off to the talk refers that I could test pictures with. And I did start modeling for Mozelle that summer at that time. I also did an advertising shoot my first advertising shoot, which was for a company called villager and their campaign was a new girl in the village, and I was the nubile in the village of his very charming, I made more money than I thought I could ever have made in one day, and it started my collection of art books. The first big artful that I bought was of Mustaf Clint book that had still to this day, I have the book did you enjoy your time is because, of course, you end up like working the fishing industry, but more. Magazines. But was it kind of a pleasant time as a model when I was in tenth grade in the summer, it was very pleasant? I worked with some wonderful tall refers, one in particular, David McCabe. Who did I did a lot of work with? Then I went straight back to school for seventh grade. And at that point decided, why don't I try it for a year between high school and art school. I ended up going to art school, and I had a very successful short lived career because I worked with Richard Avedon. I worked with arriving pen, I worked with brute stern. I worked with the core photographers that were working with magazine at that time. And of course, they were the best fashion photographers of the last century, essentially, so I was very very fortunate to work with them. But I just simply was not a good model. I did not have the confidence. I didn't have the confidence I think is probably the reigning factor. You do have to have a sense of yourself that can deliver. And at that is generous with the camera and is simply did not have the confidence to be jealous with the camera. So I was very short lived career go, but, you know, moving forward to bits and then one of your first jobs was to work with Diana Freeland. I mean that's, that's just fantastic. Right. Well story behind that is that my brother went to school with Diana Wieland's, grandson, and his brother. The grandson was Nick Alexander relent school with Ed and Nikki nNcholas. Greenland, his brother became a very very very close to mine. He was the one that tried well, it turned out to be successful introduction by default once again, by default, but he wanted to introduce me to her. She was reluctant, because she felt that she did not want to disappoint him, if she didn't like me, and she, you know, the whole sort of personal connection. In fact, what happened was an editor that was working at long. Saw me on the street, when she was shooting in front of my Portland house and said, will you come up and the editor in chief of what magazine I said. Well, of course, it will be elevator and she got in the elevator and that was the end of the story. So she then met me and she sent out a memo, which is in the book that is very, very charming about how her staff had to take her word for this, that I was going to be a good model, but they had to be devoted to the endeavor wasn't gonna come easy and other words when you read the memo in the book you see that it's kind of a mandate that she puts out there. And at that time already, did you see yourself A-Rated own you know, what am I want to work? Like actually, we've magazines in a way. We're you're ready kind of planning your next move at the time. I know what I really wasn't. I haven't worked with magazines model. I never saw a transition moment into being an editor at a magazine when I started to work with his end. When I came back from. Italy, I spent a year in Italy as part of my art school curriculum. And when I came back from that I decided not to go back to school to Philadelphia, polish for, and there, I was in New York City. She had just been appointed the special consultant to the costume institute at the Metropolitan Museum of art. And she was really revitalizing a very kind of an unknown sector of the museum nobody really knew that there was this incredible treasure tro, which was actually, the name of one of the show's afterwards of costume at the Metropolitan Museum. So she came to relate, just open everything up. It was incredible. And she essentially mounted the shows with volunteer hands and I was one of those heads, I came aboard, and we worked in the galleries we Gress the mannequins, we move around the galleries, we put them in there between, which is what she called their glass cases plexiglass. Click. Cases I worked there with on ralian tally started there with MRs ruined. It was this group of kids that were so excited to be working with her and to be just getting her own. I mean, she had such a remarkable meek point of view herself that was extremely unpredictable, which was part of the lesson. It was part of the challenge, because you had to Willie think creatively, all the time you could never take her for her. Exact words because her exact words was not actually what she was talking about talking point of view. I mean that, well, that's the title of your book, but you also have quite a strong point of view. Some people say that you define American style in a way, and I must agree. You know, the clean lines, the practical those, those beautiful images that you create would you agree? That would you say that you you're very much the finish of Americans in away? Great flattery. Of course I go on the deafening. Mission of American style. But I do feel that American style when he looked back at some of the, you know, the great designers, the Claire mccardell of the wrong, even up through the halston. There is a point of view a direction there that deals with simplicity practicality and elegance, and I do feel that those are parts of my life that have been not nurtured. I don't how to say I think that I just it was the easiest place for me to fall into I do see things clearly and with, you know, a singular point of view, and I do find that when you find something that works for you, you and your comfortable with it, then that can be something that you live by. However, you can never be too. Sure, because so many things have happened in the course of my life where it is necessarily had to take a different direction. And when that happens, you have to embrace it, and something good will come of it for sure in happens on voter shoots when. Something falls apart. And don't think it's, you know, your disaster is not a disaster, something else happens. And you didn't expect it, but it's there for the taking and it's good question you've worked, you know, we've about one hundred fifty VO covert. What makes a good Kover I know, I know you, you, you help to make then and the amazing foot of shoots as well but ease their rule because one thing about vogue that I enjoy very much, especially the American vote is the consistency. You always have amazing covert. I think that the converse have changed quite dramatically. I've been doing for twenty years. I'm now up to a hundred eighty seven I think keep account keeps coming. I just shot to covers last week for folks August and September issues in their more coming up. But I think that when I started it, we were still in transition happened extremely quickly. When I started it models, the supermodels were still the ring the reigning forces. They were the ones that were on the cover, and they were the ones that sold the magazine, and then the transition happened that the celebrity cover became a selling point, what the celebrity covered was that it opened a whole new demographic of people that would look at it. So you have fashion conscious consumer that was buying the magazine. And then all of sudden you also had the celebrity world that was now buying the magazine. So you had a fusion of two cultural phenomenon that were happening at that point. This elaborate really did take over the cover and to this day. That's what sells a cover is in a different relationship, for example, war king. Let's say. If you're in the footage shoot, we've immortal in a celebrity because, you know, the motive her job. But the celebrity did they might not know how to behave or do you think it's changing celebrity these days? They have to expect that, you know, the my being in the lovely of oak for to shoot. I think that, you know, it really depends on the person most of the celebrities, I would say, categorically, all of the celebrities were happy to do abo-, cover, and happy to work with what it takes to make VO cover. It's very different than for working with model course. Because model is a team player with you. You're all on the same team. And you any bumps in the road works together. And it's just it's a different kind of embrace with the celebrity, you are ringing that celebrity to vote and vote is going to her. So that is an interesting combination because you need to be true to who that personality is. But that personality has to come to vogue, and get our. Or stem of a kind of standard of elegance applied to them. And sometimes that's not what they're known for and nor should they be known for that. They have different persona that they project. But when they come to go, I think it's a very happy marriage. I think that, you know you get a beautiful result. And that is, in fact, what makes an interesting cover something that you didn't quite expect to see them being perceived as there's an amazing imagery in your book coming. It is a thing of beauty is on. I have to say, maybe because I'm Brazilian but I love the images with Brazil model her cows Zimmerman as well, which a think she's evoke quite a lot. I mean, do you have like a favorite more doors or someone that you work that you really, really enjoyed I have to say, I really love the girls and wreck hell is what she is? So fabulous. Because I love her as well all the what, what they're doing, but wreck hell you throw anything at her, and she is like a total chameleon. She can really do anything you Papa wig on her. She becomes. Totally different character. She has to be that is absolutely infectious. Never have bad time with her that no matter. You can throw anything at a team that has her on the plane feels. She can do anything. She's absolutely divide. But they all are. And of course, it they're working with the best tall refers. They're working with the best bashing they ignore. It is a privilege for all of us to be working with though, because you're working with the best of the best and is interesting, vulgar. I mean, because, you know, we hear the show is, is all about magazines newspapers and, you know, at at a few years ago people saying, oh, my God, printers, dad. I mean, this is, of course, completely believe it is too, so powerful and I mean, the printer should I know that there's no all digital ways and everything. But his interesting how the print issue is standing as the strongest product, isn't it for my generation, I still feel that we -ality has a it's an? Essential element. You can't have everything be virtual because. No, it's too Summerell. It just has its own way of disappearing. When you have something that you hold in your hand when you have imagery that you can really flip back to because it resonated, you move on. But then to go back to it that kind of thing is very unique to rent, and one of the things that I think is interesting with the younger photographers that I have been working with is that they are now shooting on film, they are not doing digital photography, and that in and of itself, tells you something about the value of the printed, image, that was Tony Goodman, and point of view published by Abrams is out now. The fee for women's World Cup is currently underway in France. And the attention given to the women's game is but a fraction of that enjoyed by the men's this most recent edition appears to be enjoying a breakthrough in terms of coverage and media focus, but is so much that still needs to change. So says Felicia pennant editor in chief and found season a beautiful title dedicated to women's football and fashion. I'm happy to say. Phyllis is here to tell us more about it Fleischer. Welcome good to have you with us and congratulations issue. Six of season, which is a joy to behold. I like a nice. I like portable magazine just size wise. It's good to carry around exactly. That was the kind of the idea. Like when you go much, much day program, you may or may not buy it, but they are the and the idea was to make kind of much program size and I know like mugs choice dealer, ultra humbug size that really wasn't were came into my mind. I was like, no fanzines programs, the smaller than Maxine saw is and yeah, like you said it is put bull also. It's just different on the niece done next the big Amax, it does kind of stand out more, unlike most programs most of those there. So bland, and I guess this is a broader point maybe about coverage of the game women's game. All of football, really, there is a kind of middle of the road, you taught before about mayo payroll and stale being sort of the Mer to, to journalism. But what if it will fund, why don't we put up with it because whether you reading national newspapers or the football kind of glossies. This nursing great ones out that I don't draws. And yet, people don't seem to get that upset about it. You obviously don't best. What do you think, I think, because ultimately, it might be just about conceiving information say, like my example. I'd be is a tolsey, Maxine of fears, I hate how it looks is really cheesy is very crate. If However, I guess it does the job in a sense that you got this access in the consigned, the club, I guess, is what things some content design, and they've oversee fixed on content. And I think just Germany cross the border thing like winning to offend offend anyone. So it's like if it's meant of the road and easy to understand, digest. Then it's like you just more excited that you've this continent. This interview, this player of them were looks like now, if you move creative, as I guess we all are then for me, they're kind of almost equally important, and that gas stocks that always tension between the journalists and the graphic designer when you're laying foul in the woods important lack. No. But it looks like you have it, we need to kind of find. A happy medium that word is important. I think people in this building, we want to send that tension. Reuters Barry complicated. Let's take a step back oversee. We're talking the women's World Cup is going on. I've been talking with colleagues, we were chatting before we started about the attitude around the gain, the coverage, the enthusiasm seems different new immediately. I did I slightly more sanguine about it? Why are you more cautious? I mean you're suggesting that what child, you know, the coverage interest could fizzle once tournaments gone. I don't know. I feel like it's, it's moving positraction. My just naive or do you think your you'll be vindicated in a in a sort of in a month's time depends on what you think progress looks like if I'm a comparing, you know what the coverage was before. Welcome. What it will be afterwards. I think for me it's also about kind of diversity of coverage. Now I can see where I'm standing and kind of this independent space, whether a so me women doing projects like all funds the oldest I mean they've been going since twenty thirteen but there's so many women can taken upon themselves with a is imprint poke call. Or something like that, or websites now, let stud some premier losses because mainstream, I guess it's thing of having to appeal to everyone. And if you are more independent than the bit more niche, you have creative control. So when it comes to coverage across the board, I guess, thing of maybe it's, you know, really knows who the audience is. And guess what the objective will be no oversee this. Comparison if the men's game and I think with the coverage I think there has been a guess, twenty two in the similar way. But also the, you know, the amount of jobless women and people involve actually follow the game can speak about it in the same way that people con the men's game, you know, the women's game isn't slapped in your face every single day like the men's game is in terms of Jonas away last female journalists are all jealous that may be did kind of specialize women's football Narva Daphne there. And I think that what's great as you can see them coming to the fore, novices, their time, this lists topic for me. Being a little cynical about this cave is the great moment. But some moment, what's next? And I think that from what I've heard about naming names. It seems like what kind of works in the favour while maybe at for different? It's because there is like the euro's women zeroes in England in twenty twenty one so you can see clear kind of time that can be made on it seems to someone who maybe didn't think it was before because you can link these two moments together, at least if you're in England say, I think maybe it does feel different. But then I'm there is cynical things. Are you doing this? Because you wanna celebrate these women's debate the game push forward and spire, semi people, you doing it because you can make money from an it's more cynical thing and doesn't ulterior motive. So I guess we'll see very diplomatic point about the game. It was talking to kill him. Jacobs from Caracol McGee about. We were talking about this vaccine issue of is it still a good thing. If people went scrutinizing the game kind of realize that in a lot of ways, it's just the game is the prism to ask these more penetrating questions. And it's the same about, you know, any issues whether talking about racism, misogyny, on the phobia of the newspapers, I have covered the women's World Cup with a bit of additional debt and bit more consideration than they have done before. But the problem is that in the same way talked about that stuff around say sailing racism in the game would up and then people sort of turntable said, well, hang on, how many black faces are there in your newsroom. Oh, well that's not really relevant right now. And the answer was a big fat zero. Is that is that the power of football, though, to actually turn it right? Round and say you have all seen around questions. It's about the games problem. It's still a much more read social problem. I think football I think football makes can make things we'll particles. Like you said like hits thought like entry gateway, and I think that's something we definitely do season. I am a woman of color, and sometimes it does for like, if you football it's, you know, the gender thing I'm the race thing, and it does come up like rain starting a great example of that people ask being, particularly because I and my daughter, Chelsea fans. And they're like, that's like the most racist Klopp, I'm deed, EFI club has funds that do things like that. Also, feel color experience, almost every day, depending on where you are. So it's thing of, I think football is a nice gateway to discuss these things, and also maybe bring people in conversation and make them think about it from different point of view, like if it's your favorite player, or I think there was a really interesting. Meeting study about as Lama phobia Mosala pool fires, and how pay down in Liverpool because people seeing someone who's a role model also doing really great things for the team, and then not kind of shifted that perspective on, I guess his place off the pitch. So I guess. Yeah, football's great gateway. And I think it makes people think about things in different ways. I've also been a match, and you see fibber does bring out a side to you, the publi, I guess, show or in public like he may be bit more spiral and stuff. But I've heard people scream reporting things next children. But you'll sure they would never ever say in any other circumstance so footballs, great with extremely of opinion in like, you know, I've seen shows with guns. You know toning things. Please pick them up from a video, and he was like I had no idea what I was saying and they will, but you'll see. Sean. And he's. Yep. At the crowd and just swept up and I'm not obviously really lame excuse. But totally understandable. That being swept up in the emotion of it, and people chant things that maybe they don't believe, but in the heat of the moment that they're, so let's talk a little bit more about the magazine itself oversee the game against the prism. That's the way in what's your what was your elevator pitch? And what's your one liner for the uninitiated people? Don't is it about, you know, it's football and fashion. And it's a bit of coacher this great journalism. It looks ROY but it still wants to broadcast football Ness. How, how do you sort of, how do you communicate what it really is about to be? Well, okay. So when I started the idea was for it to be a space, where women he play and don't play. It's important to say that you can be a fan and have no interest in playing could we just our opinions express what we think about things. Celebrate the. We do football because that was not going on. I start making season two thousand fifteen so much has changed way more than I ever thought actually wouldn't such a short space of time with three years old. So it was just creating the space clubs looking all this football coverage and thinking great. The tell me about my team. I'm hearing any female voices. They're aren't really people of color around people from different religions. It's not very diverse. And why is that? And also, it's the same opinion it's an echo Burs kind of how far so that spur kind of beside d'oeuvres countering. The fact that modern football coaches, quite male its pale and it stale, like it's the same format. So back in twenty sixteen it was the day of just enlightening people like these women who would just as into football as you are. We also work in a creative industry in Russia and I was meeting. I my background is in on those meeting loss of great women being to challenge. Shoots about football and the men. They're being really shocked by that. And everyone being like, oh well you dated like a full firma. What does the football fund? That like, and there were these stereotypes of what football funds female football funds and were, and it was like, well I didn't fit into that book. So it was just Shaun king could be my massively into it. So just yeah. The first is, she was kind of, you know, airing those points of view giving women platform to talk about it also dressing issues like we did off side rule. And you know, it's used as a spot test. So now, add say evolved into which was an independent platform, but the fashion of connection because it's crystallized move widely in culture, I guess, always on Jurica springs to mind with hover Zayn was so great incur Stover, and it became this kind of, I guess, statement of taste light for me. I'm doing so it was always a statement of my dentist thing that Christopher plea was really comfortable item sold out. And personally, I was always seeing kind of football, references on a walk books looming designers are. Footballer lost style. So three point five billion football fans on the planet, of course designers into the world's most popular sports wrong with the other two. Nice it does so many football references that you can see the community or this kind of tribalism way more and something's away more sought to the Nino turns coach on the Casuals. So you know there's someone really great like oh shea French sun. She does stuff PS chief of bouquets as she herself is a football fund Haddad. He's awesome. Munger all these great stories kind of, if you unless you spoke to someone you wouldn't know and also as a woman before he may be felt confident who came about because you felt like you'd be dismissed. So now I've say independent national football platform. The whole idea is just to with content show. These stories we kind of fashion football stories on this idea of expressing fund three dress, your personal style, fuel beauty and the these kind of connections. So is kit. Spits also looking beyond that to the fuck that say now we have these teams around undone another row kind of again. New standard being Sutton tons of design like with us. I mean, like months, I think it's very months star thought making an awesome football care. And if you hit a story behind it, it's amazing. So meaningful for them. And now I think it's taken up north lots of teams a thinking, right? We're going to use this to our identity who we are an, you know, that kind of thing if you look good you play good. Yes. Being spotlight players liaison recover and his also because she's the well carve and thought thing of winning to like support someone and show, a different sides. The so important, this three sixty view of somebody show her as a woman as a person as just a player, I think, what's really great is the all being shown as players on the pitch in the football, Kip, who they when they go home, they engage day, they will kind of twenty somethings and normal women who just so happened to be amazing football. So it's like why don't we celebrate that side effects and makes them more relate? And then as the men's game cool those mundane things that they do. Oh, so funny. But it makes keeps you engaged keeps you coming back to and NAS, the kind of me the kind of insight and access that will help everything grow because, like we know what both more than a sport at the moon with women's game is kind of being touched as just a sport. And I think can eat everything around it fit to, like, the coach right now, most of the women, I know who into the men's game, the women's game or fat growing and evolving. Hopefully, you know, when the Uris woman, you women's, you always comes to England in two thousand twenty one will be for a long in order any where will what your journey issue. You'll be out too. I never was. I never was. Whereupon. You'll so. Yeah. Well, we hope you suddenly you get a hug. You get there. And we should also say to the uninitiated, also get stickers. Back to Mexico at you six honest. That's one for another day. We can't get into that afternoon. Thanks very much going. See us. Thank you. That's it the full time whistle her sounded for this week's program. I XE special thanks to editor Cassie Galvin come into queries as ever a welcome send them to finance. He's on f p at Monaco dot com. And don't forget to join us at the same time next week. You can always listening to this, and passed up to the show and monocle dot com by June or wherever you get your podcast slits close, though, as we like to do with the song. We're indulging our birthday boy this week. That's all producer finance. Here is Madonna's Medellin taken from her latest album, Madame x which is out now this one's fi Nando. This is the stack until twits. Thanks for listening. No good. Skin.