The Grid 022 ft. Helen Ellis Seven-Eight suited
Data affiliated hit me. Welcome to the grade. I'm your host Jennifer Shoddy and we'll be taking thirteen thirteen episode journey through every every possible no limit holdem in one hundred sixty nine has in total from aces to seven days officer each episode interview. Another top poker player personality -ality about their hand WANNA combos taken. It's gone so this podcast will become progressively more difficult as hands like ace. King are moved from the head head whether you spend hours poring over grids as you study poker loved. Listen the had history pause while grinding cash or just interested in absurd scavenger hunts. We're GONNA the has some cards dealer of hit me. They see me see me awesome. Data suggest low everyone and welcome back to the poker grid. I'm here with Helen. Ellis who is a poker player and author. Some of her books include eating the Cheshire cat the turning American housewife and most recently southern lady code which defines in the book cover as technique. which if you don't have something nice to say you say something not so nice in a nice way how it was memorably described in a book by Colson Whitehead the Noble Hustle? It's been quoted alive but it's so good we're GONNA have to do it again. The dues blurted flirted in condescended with Helen and this creature in a black sweater and Pearls Wallop thumb. A lot of people don't think women will bluff. Helen said she was bluffing. The moment she walked in today. Helen has a hand for us that coincided with a rebirth in her writing career and many of us have big dreams were in fact seven eight suited array array. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much. I must tell you you know with a southern lady code. If you don't have something nice to say say something not so nice like you would say uh-huh well she's an archivist which means hoarder and I think there's a perfect southern lady code poker phrase that everybody uses when they don't want to say something Nice yes and I think it's good hand and ninety nine sandwich really means Could mean some very bad things. I was thinking about that about. How like your southern lady code is so appropriate to poker for instance when people say as played tell them a hand history and they're like what what should I have done in the river and they say as played that means you completely wrecked crashed but after playing like Now I guess this is what I do. I hope that our podcast together has most giggles on it from their other podcasts. Ask I've been listening to you. We're GONNA giggle. Yeah well my husband's really great editor. So if the giggles are not flattering. He'll come right up. There's no giggling and poker. Well Yeah I guess not three now. Now that's why like poker and go to casinos. Because I don't speak at all. I don't feel the pressure to speak speak at all or be social entertain. I just sit quietly and play which I don't feel in any other situation so you never talk at the table. I speak if I'm spoken to and you'd be surprised at how little outspoken too. But you are featured in the New York Times and I think the backdrop of the article is a a home game in your man I have many. We have home games in the apartment. It's true still. I can be entertaining and if you come to the house. Maybe there are some homemade cookies. which isn't of everybody else's poker game but again? I like to play because I can. Just sit very quietly and be confrontational and sort of act. ACT The opposite of how act every day. That's really interesting I think. That's that's the different reasons for playing games like chess and poker for some people. People is a release of their personality and for some people. It's a way to show a personality that nobody ever sees. Yes I like it. It really is a more our natural self for me. I have the same cell phone. I'm writing which is a very quiet sort of meditative aggressive stance but let's get to the hat. Eight seven suited. Tell us a little bit about wearing when this took place because it also fascinated me because it was not just an interesting hand but it also something that coincided with a lot of important events in your own life it was really a breakthrough moment for me. In many respects I had published a novel in one thousand nine hundred nine and then written three more that never saw the light of day and I had stopped telling people that I was even a writer and at the poker tables even Next week at the Borgata if you say what do you do. I will say housewife because it just sorta shut the conversation down and I secret live in writing these short stories getting them published in literary magazines and I had a collection it was going out for sale. So it'd been fifteen years. I was in this very brave. Rebirth time in my life and I was feeling very fearless and I was also I'd also been opening up my range and just getting more and more aggressive at the table so two thousand fifteen and It was day two of a Borgata event. It was a thousand dollar event and Dan usually when I go to a day to ninety percent of the time. I am dead center in the middle of stacks. I usually have twenty big blinds. I am very very happy uncomfortable between big blind. I'm usually right in the middle and this time I must have had you know eighty biggs and I felt you know stacked and of course before for the day starts. I look at. Who's going to be at my table? I look but the stack sites is our. I tried to find out you know any sort of background on the players and there were a couple of good pros rose at the table. Vinnie hoosier. Yes the table WHO. I Adore and Dan Buzz. Buzz got Dan bus going at the table and I'd never played played with him but I knew his reputation. He absolutely scared the living daylights out of me. He's a great player. He's a great player. Yes very tough table and of course all men and it's probably the first. I'm going to tell you the first the hand I played before I just to kind of give you a little build up so this is the very first hand and it's it's folded to Dan and he opens at I three bedroom with as king which is very natural it folds are onto him and he stares at me for what must have been three minutes that he's sitting right beside me and eventually falls and I show him the king which I really really rarely show my hand. I'm very happy to show a bluff. If you call me but I rarely shut my hand. I showed him because he just intimidated me. I wanted him to see that. I wasn't raising in with just anything so the very next hand it's folded to neom on the button at this point and I have seven eight of clubs so I mean I really could have almost anything if it's folded to me on day. Two on the Button Martin and I opened two three x and they were two very young Men in the blinds both of them had between ten and twenty five. have big stacks a gun big blinds. Yeah Yeah and they each just flack Halmi and the flop is four or five seven with two clubs which could not be better for are seven eight of clubs small blind jams big blind jams and I snapped call and flipped my hand. I show my seven eight of clubs as for top pair with a flush draw snob line has gangs and big light has aces and the table just erupts errupts. And the turn is the six so I the straight I completely blacked out. Whatever the the river was but other minute the table were going crazy as these two young men exited a saying I would have put all my money that she had the aces kings and they had the small city connectors? Because I just don't see women sort of that loose with their hang on and then anybody that came to the table. Men kept talking about the hand they would continue to tell the story. Tell the story it shows you. How when you're a woman you can sort the more aggressive and when you hit the hand noble think you've hit the hand what it just so incredibly condescending that because it's like you have a big stack and you're on the button? Oh you can have seventy off. Her Queen do suited yes. It's really bizarre that they would. They never give give you credit at hand where I was playing a tournament and someone opened and five people you know called and I had Jackson I jammed and one person ended up calling ten but the table was erupting say. No way no way. She would jam with with just jacks against all these handsome. We'll check in with a lot less than that so Yeah it's it can be very condescending but that's fine it really is fine with me. I met at a age where I know have to prove myself to anybody else and usually that condescension or misjudgment works in my favor and and I'm sure nobody who is a good player because it doesn't even make any logical sentence like Dan Vinnie weren't oh no never no that's true it's true. We all made it today. I think today three on that event and for me at the table the greatest compliment I can get is you are a beast and I say thank you thank you very much. It's such a different world. Because his what four percent women that play it's fascinating to me the reactions of men at the tables. I feel like a lot of women first of all you knew not look old at all not at all. There are a lot of women. Yeah it does seem. There's a lot that are very young. Teams teams that that is a a demographic so between twenty one and thirty so there I think there might be an extra amount of condescension for women who who are a little older. It's very interesting. I will either be invisible at the table or I'll get a lot of attention to the table. And if a younger woman comes to table than I will completely disappear and again it works in my favor but it's fascinating to watch cause and women really you. You've been there so you you see how women come to the table. Sometimes women will come with the hoodies and the sunglasses. Because I don't want to stand out or draw attention to themselves. I just would like myself. I try to look like myself and a lot of times that can be intimidating. You know maybe I look like somebody's mother. Somebody's teacher me Librarian. Yeah well I think though that It seems like you really enjoy that experience of being invisible. Sometimes being able to focus on the game in outplay people. I know that some women especially if they're more extroverted might find it. Annoying ignored by a lady friend. Rachel Kranz who. I'm sure treaty with really love because she was also a writer and lived in your can play poker She was always frustrated with that because she wanted to like cow party at the table. Talk about like hands and gossip and fun and you know that was. That was really more difficult. Yeah I really again. It's this sort of opposite of my everyday life. I like it because it's a quiet space for me. Even at the tables very rowdy I like to sit and observe. You'll never see me on the phone at the tables you'll see me watching everybody else to me. It's a great show and it's a place I feel still feel like I'm not supposed to be you know I'm not supposed supposed to be there so I feel like a thrill generate. It's a thrill every time I walk into a poker room and I've been playing casino since I was twenty one years old. You know every time on my walk into a poker room. There's a fear and a thrill and I know people are looking and you sit at the table and you just have to wait. Wait until you sort of draw first blood before people respect you and it's a thrill to surprise people I love it. I love it so much. That's funny because a lot of people in chess and poker you know they want to get more women in by saying like you know we need to make them feel more comfortable. You'll never become to buy. There's also that sense of what so you're saying that some women specifically gravitate towards it. Because they wanNA feel that thrill of being one of the only ones and overcome when we think about it. Will you ever be comfortable in a room as the only woman with a room full of men. Now you will never be comfortable never will there is sort of a thrill of Muscling through that and being the last one standing and fighting and confronting and standing your ground in a quiet a strong way and again I just I just love it. You Know I. I see what you're saying that people think that maybe there was a twenty percent women instead instead of ten it would somehow change things but would love it. I mean do you. I'm sure you play the women's events do you play a lot of fun at those. I loved them and it's a completely completely different game. Don't you think well I think it's it's all like that one's a lot about table draw either. Have like a phenomenal time. Or there's just like a little bit of A. I think it's just more so women's tournaments But so in coed tournaments as well. There's this feeling that one bad apple ruins the bunch in that one kind of cranky cranky negative person table just kind of like ads is like awful aura and I think that it can be the congress can be true to if you have one really happy heavy person and like my good friend Jules. Who's like a ray of sunshine? Yeah there's no better sport than it can be very catchy I love it and women. Women's is I feel that even more. So it's like you're either at a table with like jewels and everybody's like joking ordering like shots or you're at some table where the two women just had a fight everybody is silent. Yes and there's a million different perfumes and rattling jewelry. But I feel like it's a faster gain. Hey it's a really fast game as compared to when you play against men a lot of times men really do the word I WANNA use Brood over. Thank a hand and they take forever and there's a lot of posturing and when you play the ladies events. It's very very fast and instinctive and I I love it but to get back to the moment at a career that this hand took place that really interest me because obviously you know that poker players deal with lots of downswings and to me when I was reading about your towns weighing in writing where you were writing books and they weren't getting publish. I couldn't help think of poker player who is You know failed cash. Ask for quite a long time and how you keep your stamina and your commitment to your craft has a great question and I will tell you that poker. The big thing it has taught me is is that you will fail and there's always another game and when it came to my riding life it was fifteen years of failure and that is the word I would choose to use news when I kind of got that life back. I kept the sort of competitive attitudes. So that came back to me. My writing life came back to me in two thousand fifteen retain with American housewife was published in two thousand sixteen and then I wrote another book which was published this year and now they've paid me to write another book which I'm writing now on deadline which I love I write. The last books had been short stories and essays There's sort of this instant gratification of writing. Something that's ten pages long and then it being a success some plenty of away but every essay isn't like that every story isn't like that you know sometimes the peace just isn't going where you want it to go and you have to just let it go and it's very easy for me. He to let a piece go because like in poker you bust out you make it far you bust out but there's always another tournament all you have to do. Is this show up. It's that bravery. Is this some guts to go and play cards. And there's some guts to sit down and think gotta write something that people are going to WanNa read. I mean Um Poker really really just toughened my skin. And maybe very appreciative of when I get back in the game when I got back into the writing game that I know how how special it is to be there and I I will not let go when Colson Whitehead wrote about you in the novel Hustle is. He's a fantastic New York or New New York writer. Didn't he win some litter or something recent yes he won the Pulitzer Pulitzer. He won the National Book Award. He won the courtesy when the Guggenheim. He's he's a very big deal especially African Pokharel. Italian won the macarthur in the Guggenheim when I met him in like two thousand twelve to coach him at I had been been a fan of his writing. You know For since since the intuition EST which was his first book so I knew who he was but the noble hustle came and went and then came underground railroad and then came the nickel boys and now he is just you know out of this world. I count being paired up with him to coach him for the world. Series is one of the best gifts I've ever gotten Because really when I was coaching him I wasn't writing and I was in this space where I was being introduced at literary parties is. Oh this is Colson Whitehead's poker coach which was fine by me at the time or when that book came out to see him. Write about me. You know it's like seeing someone paint a picture of you. I've thought that's fine. If this is how I go down in history three bats gray but the way he wrote about me and the way he respected my experience and help made me feel take a little bit and it made me think well if I'm brave enough to walk into a room full of thousands of men and think. I can outlast them. I can write a little story and he really did sort of. Remind me that I was brave and I started riding on the on a more regular basis and poker sort of gave me my Chutzpah. I read that book a few years ago. Actually and I met you add and I don't think I followed you on twitter yet anonymous back down so I just knew you of the book and what a what a brilliant portrayal really came off so wonderfully like somebody who I wrote a couple things. Because there's that cold I mentioned in the introduction in with everybody uses in that you know I. I don't like to be the person who only use with other people use. There's a couple of other ones where before the Waso key you recommended that he read the gift of fear and eat swordfish. I had my own tactics. I love you. Read the gift of fear by into I love that ball so I felt a lot of kinship ship when I read that because I actually did a run wants video where I started by talking about the gift of fear and this is the the video was about trying to calculate your equity. The if you're playing against somebody WHO's not one hundred percent reliable so there are a little bit shady. They're like okay like let's just be more and more blunt there are shady fish so they're not gonna Fokker but there are a little bit. You're not one hundred percent sure you're getting paid if you win so I was like trying to go through like whether that was a good. How you calculate calculate whether that's a good proposition and I mentioned the gift of fear Yes I love it? I think it's excellent for beginners especially for women to read because we are as women constantly camping down our instinct. You know. Um We're we're meant to thank that you're being hysterical. If you don't want someone to bring your your groceries into your house you have a bad feeling and once they get in your house. Then it's all over. It's this instinct like this person is lying to me. This person is lying to me and it really plays well in poker. I think about my husband who thinks he's in a hand. The other person has the absolute best hand his to force on the Board Bull. Then they have four fours where almost every hand I'm involved with. I think the other person is lying. I think the book is terrific. Just letting you respect that first instinct. Anytime I find myself talking myself into something when it comes to a poker hand. It's usually not a good idea. You know when I hear myself site fold. He has a well. Let me think about now that I'm always. I was right the first time although you sometimes it's hard because you have to you have to UNWRAP. What is in a genuine instinct in one is a bad memory? Is kind of trump traumatizing. Cis Oh you know the last few times you call these huge over bet. They just had the knots. Annual embarrassed west so it could be like that bad memory or it could be something that your instincts really picking up on that. You can't actually to remember. And that's why it's very hard and poker. I actually think the gift of beer is also very useful for the Meta game. Yeah who to be friends with swap with even if they're really great player are they going to actually pay you the swap. I felt like that was for me. That was where I had a lot of poker analogies to the ball and there was another part which actually feel like Tied into some stuff you were earlier saying is is that when Colson was describing your relationship and his dreams worried he said that it would be like one of those racial harmony. Movers they never go to see the blindside. Were a southern. White Lady Instructs a Weirdo. uh-huh black I in how to use a fork. That's my broken barriers montage sequences Golden Globes. I love that. I'll Hang Y love Ecuador too because I yeah I think since call center in in that book. There's been even more kind of heat on these kind of like white savior type movies but you can tell that like he feels like we actually being. Maybe this will be the first good one. Yes this one could work and did San. Of course you've Rendon to bestselling looks and he's won the Pulitzer the National Book Award all these others doing okay. So apparently this movie which actually didn't take place but took place in the real world. Yeah turned out to be great for both of them. Yes yes it was definitely win win. And I don't think he's been back to the I know he has a a game a quarter dollar game that he plays with a bunch of very very big tights other Pulitzer winners. But I don't think he's been back in the casino since I think it running right out. Yeah Yeah what's Larry. As I actually feel I feel like when I started reading your books. Also I just think that you know you have such an incredible sense of timing and flow like your twitter feed is funny but but a lot of people are funny on twitter. I think that the ability to just carry it in know exactly when to end something. I don't know if there's a poker analogy there. But just as somebody who he loves to read as well like I do read your stories. Allow the tips for that. I am a writer who unabashedly rights for women. My one percent is straight man so I write for women of all ages and game and that is why. That's who I I write for but when I write something thing I always have my husband read it out loud to me because I can hear his voice drag your he gets. You know if you think something's funny or I can hear spots where I need to revise it or cut it because if I can make him interested in what I'm writing about than I can probably make you interested in what I'm writing about. And he it wasn't so I have had many a lesson with Matt. Metros he coaches Lii and he writes as well and he really sort of catered poker lessons ends or polka coding. Poaching to me with the thought of when you play a hand you're telling a story with each bat how much you bet how you behave. You're telling a story whether that story's stories ally the truth you know you have to always think when someone's lying it you does that make sense in the story. I thought that was pretty smart. Yeah absolutely and I talked talked about this recently. With Martin Harris who's also an author and a professor in North Carolina. He he and I were talking about how a lot of people who aren't writers but our poker player player when they talk about a hand let it almost feels like they're innovators coming out. Yes poker players know how to tell a good story. I want to hear it all the time you don't but that's the best. Part of playing cards will not my best part but a lot of people love you know talking about it afterwards and all those details. How many vice did you have? What was he wearing? Was He drunk. You Know Etcetera Etcetera and some of your stories are about manners like how to be a good gas. The good guest is always the first to arrive even the first to lead that's correct and they spew compliments like a vested Penny Outta. Don't bring me wine just complimenting and the more for specific and colorful the complimented better yes yes exactly. So it's not like you have pretty is yes you can watch right in the door and gave me a compliment which I appreciate I I did read it up. Not The government's run game. I don't care I'll take falls compliment. I don't mind I do. You generally like to give a lot of compromises. 'cause I like a lot of things. Yes yes yes and you can take a compliment. I noticed as well a lot of ladies cannot take a compliment and that's sort of a skill in itself. Ah Yes thank you or you know nice hand be the first to arrive in the. I believe not the best. Not the best Fokker advice now. No I always always think to myself if I make it past the four like the two hundred four hundred level. I'm good I'm GonNa go far and that's again I think back to Matt who sort of trying to change the my way of thinking I play it was such a survivalist mentality. You know twenty bigs. I am gold gold. I can last for days on and he has his additive. No you want all the chips. She wanted win as many chips. You WanNa bust early in the tournament. You're not there just to play like a weekend warrior. You want all the chips which I think about that. Seventy two clubs. Hand Dan where I've got two people jamming in front of me. That was me being the killer wanting all the chips because they both did have better hands on me when we put the money in but it was such such a good setup of I did have a nice big stack. But what else did I want from playing a seven. Eight of clubs to bolster stacks and his so delicious Yum yum. Liam Neeson right now young young but I would never say that the table just sit quietly. That'd be great doc for you to say that at the table I I did in that in that tournament. I think it was deported than that. Everybody's going to dinner and I'd just like one a huge pot hot so people were leaving the table and I was sort of getting my chips in order and I said something on my breath and will who's the reporter said. Did you just say that was delicious. I said yes. It's delicious and that was a seven clubs at least started out. Yeah yeah the Four or five seven. You've got there. You've got to six on the turn and editing caviar. We aces in the king's Yes. We're we're got outta out of here. I have never in my life Lynch with Acer Kings never or just flat hall federating all member. Never no I can't. I'm not able to the thing about ace is it's a lot like nails hard mess up that I feel that that is your best. That's your best accessory. I'm going to steal that in a way I mean whatever you do with your aces that doesn't involve holding them like it's GonNa make you a lot of money is set mentality of why should trap him you know. I should track that person who always get myself into trouble when I have that asking. Yeah I do you you know. It's just the trapper gets trapped in my in my experience. It's tough it's just about finding the right amount of trap you know. Everybody has their own their own images in their own instincts. I find myself that actually it's A. It's not instinct for me to trap. People tend to be a little bit more straightforward. So I actually have to introduce as some of that into my game whereas other people are overly sneaking so they have to take some of it out in a cash game people with kings and aces all the time and it usually usually usually think it's an older man. That's what I see whenever I see an older man limp in the cash game where tournament. I'm like Ooh ACIS. Yeah Luckily you know people don't have issues that often not a very small. Aren't they nice. I they are reading. They always were especially when their hearts Saddam and yes but I wanted to ask you about manners poker players if you have another hour or to behave at the POLKA Tang off. What are some the things that people might not talk about? You know not the obvious like being rude to dealers. It's amazing to me what men will talk about in front of me and how other men will respond to that. And and I find poker players times to be the most chivalrous group of men at least in my presence if somebody says something rude or someone throws their cards or pitching fit or is You know another man will say there's a lady present and I see it a lot. That happens a lot of get Mamat trumped up and down at the poker table and I love to be made I deserve to be Ma'am D- very happy to be managed but I think etiquette wise. I can't stand if somebody reaches into by chips. which happens once and then it never happens again people? I can't stay. People are sort of policing the table and Graham. Everybody's ships to make the you know the Antis at up. I love the new big line anti habit. People can just be very rude and condescending sending and I that's why I don't speak that's why don't speak. It will stop it if you don't speak back. They usually walk clam up. When do you think lets you kind of touched on? It's the beginning. Is that poker table. There's nine people at the table and I think that sometimes people have conversations that are more appropriate for private. I have seen amen with porn on their phones at the table. Right the me right. That's unbelievable I have seen thing that more than once. Why no you were looking because I read the chapter in your book? Those of you who haven't read southern lady at Code yet how has a chapter on twitter and pornography Griffey and she has her handle used to be American housewives so somehow she got more pornography followers and others twitter allows poor. And and let me tell you. It's out there graphic porn so I know it when I see it especially at the poker table and I again. I just one time of the phone. I don't do anything like I. Don't call attention to it. You know. But I'm amazed. I'm amazed that you would sit there with that at the table. That's really crazy to me. Because how are you going to relieve like. I think. What's the what's the math year? Trying to calculate best. You have been a number of times where men had been on either side of me in a hand arguing arguing verbally and leading over me and I will get up from the table. pushback from the table and stand until they're finished having their fight. 'CAUSE I I didn't come to get smacked and it happens. All the time happened while at the time what it's going to be hard for me to come up with any examples after you have the pornography at the table. I mean can't top that come to the table and I say all right gentlemen please close your legs so I can squeeze an yes. Ma'am yes ma'am but it's amazing. I wanted to start like an instagram fade of men's legs touching my legs. You looked at it. I just like do you touch your wife like this. You look up against your wife like this. It's fascinating so manners at the poker table. We have a very low bar. Don't look at your pornography so that the housewife sitting next to you can see it even though she's really looking on on twitter as well but will you have to see what it is before you report it but to take to a higher bar. What about if you're hosting your own poker her game mom? What kind of hosting tips do you have for? We have two game. We like to have a lot. We put out a spread. So you know you're you're welcome to go into the kitchen and pictures sandwich. There's pizza are there's drinks. I'm you want people to be comfortable and and when I teach you know new students it's also like I usually go to woman's house and their beats usually all women and they'll be just as spread out and when you start playing poker you think am I can be able to get from the table so I always sort of give list of like how to behave at the poker table and that is if you have to use the restroom you get up and use the restroom if you WanNa get yourself some more Chili. Go Get yourself more more. Chilly don't put your Chili Bowl on the felts chips. Just poke me and I'll give you more chips. Don't touch other players stack. Don't talk when other people are involved in a Han. Dan Don't say what you think at player is playing. What else is there You know stuff like that. Yeah it's funny because you know sometimes our games teams and friendships where people feel like. They shouldn't do certain plays against them. Like check razu triple barrels. And I think that that is really dangerous. If the poker poker world gets to cliquish and people have these beliefs. It's a big problem. Well my husband has played with me many a time and he knows that I'll never take it easy on him he will. He's afraid to go against me. But I have a very good memory opinion at the Aria. We're playing like a one day tournament we're at the same table I arrays with aces. No rings with King's King. I raised he pushes all in. And I'm like I'm sorry. Dear and I call him and he had aces array for you and then he lost and what does he say like if I lose I lose and if she loses I lose it's really tricky. I think with brands. You don't want to block them laugh because then it's friendships explode in the Polka road. It becomes really unfair and forbidding to outsiders as these relationships can interfere. And you know who's who knows who at table you know you know you can tell but you don't WanNa blow more either. It's really a part where you gotta get that frequency right so so time. We're about your latest book. Southern Lady Code I mentioned in the introduction how it is a way to say something in a nice way that is inferring is is will you could say he has a big personality which means he never stops running his mouth. Or what have we say earlier as played as has played yeah through or she likes to know she's she likes to play a lot which means she plays every hand and plays terribly followed is good Eh. You know when when Colston wrote the book. My husband appears a little bit in the book and we got to read the book in Galle Forum. You know with the five. Th You want to change anything that bothers shoe. which is what I did with my last book? That's not fiction fewer in the essay. I would send it to you saying you want me to change your name. I will if the visual I'll change it and he sent it to me Eh. Is that don't change a thing. I loved it and my husband said well. At one point he refers to me as a tight player. I don't like that. So he changed it to solid solid player. See that's exactly what I met. I met Sally Tight. This is something that I think is a famous poker folklore that breaking even means. You're losing your shirt and losing a little means your mortgage on your house quote my father you know. He always said rowing on behind. You do do it no matter how he did. The answer was always do okay. That's the their he lost the vote or one the boat. It was always I did okay. It's tough because you you have to kind of tailor what you're saying to your poker friends and your real world friends because it's going to be translated differently. Now I feel like poker players could feel your pain when I felt this tweet by tell you that I just love and you say why I say. I'm a housewife. Oh person would you do me. I am a writer like self published on Amazon. No I have a publisher. Sure so can I buy your books in stores. Yelich Barnes and noble. Yes an Amazon. Yes are they making a movie and I was like poker player. Could write this exact scene gene. Can you make me fifty bucks. Yes yes can you count cards and all black. That's a big one. Can you count cards. You must be really good at that Yes absolutely right. And that's why I say a mouse like that a poker table because again. It's not giving away anything about yourself and it will shut the conversation sation down. Nobody ask a second question when you say housewife and when you say rider than that person's GonNa be talking to you and never has happened for us at a writer. What if you written in southern Lady Code? Oh It'd be by at right now on on the on kindle that never happens really never never and my husband now says you know when that happens. Oh you should buy on kindle. It's eleven dollars. Go right ahead but never happens. You don't think so. I mean I sometimes when I meet somebody who just wrote a book. I love my pets. Because you're intelligent. Woman uh-huh yes not. Everyone behaves that way. I mean not always but I a a fair portion of the time if it sounds interesting actually will buy it. Because I haven't been this reference point of this cool person person that I met which makes it more interesting to go pick up and read it. You know what I I agree I agree. Yes yes but I get what you're saying and that's also like for me as a chess player poker player Erin and podcast. Hose writer they. It's hard for me to also say what I do sometimes especially like in the mom's groups because then I feel like almost like bad manner that it's going to monopolize Coppola's the conversation because everything is so weird so they're going to ask me a hundred questions and then suddenly like it's all about me so I just try to say something. That sounds sounds Kinda boring. If I if I don't want to the conversation to be about me I will sometimes say something like I work in media. I think that tends to shut things. Dance a little boring Maybe something about something. That's a little technical. Yeah and also I think people get the coded language something very big. They understand that you don't want to talk about it right right. I keep coming back to age just because I'm very comfortable with my age and I wasn't this way in my twenties and thirties. I thought I have to prove if something and now I don't even approve so you know yes. I'm a writer of poker player. I do lots of interesting. Things of a jigsaw puzzle fanatic. But I don't need someone who's just met me to know that side just say housewife. Say I'm just a housewife but I say housewife. Because I'm proud of that too. I'm pretty good win. It's a GIG. Your House's looks amazing and I was pretty encouraged to read your essay in an American House. No that's another lady the one about how used to be a SLOB and now you're anti free gas. I'm a recovering slob. Sometimes I relapse. Don't look in that class. Yeah and I that was in the New York Times and the the modern love section as well picked as one of the lake top mother-in-law essays. I was really good and it gave me hope. Hope at the same time also came up in your essays. You don't have a toddler exactly that does add another layer. That's the ants from say. How do you do all these things? I don't have children. It's that's the answer. I don't have that commitment and do you think that plays into being more comfortable with your age because I feel that women in question. Twenties and thirties are hounded by people. Even if they're not asking just like thinking about it and projecting those thoughts when you get. How many are you gonNA have? Ah in that can be a little stressful. It is very stressful. You know whenever we would meet RIA for a party people meet my husband and I would ask my husband. What do you do and and it asked me? How many children do you have? Not Do you have children how many children you have and my answer is nothing and but again it was me. I'm forty nine now now. When I pushed past forty I just became more and more comfortable with the life choices that I have made and it makes me? I think it gives me time if I want to go off and play cards. I don't have anything distracting me. I mean you're amazing player. You know you have this child so I know that's it's not the end all be all. I have a level of freedom that I'm comfortable with that makes them. Oh absolutely and I think you know it's important especially probably from somebody with your background coming from work. Traditional upbringing in the south on where people are probably a very nosey and asking a lot of questions about children's actually in most of my circles since I'm friends with a lot of just players poker players artists outmost. Yeah Admit some few friends from poker who also have kids But like my good friend Katie Stone. Who I'm sure you would love if you met her but and then I met some new friends with kids but very few of my of my friends from those were all type children? He should listen to. My sister has a huge podcast Called one bad mother and she and her co host have five children between them And both of them are in sort of these comedian artistic worlds and they're the ones who same thing. They're the ones with the kids where their friends don't have kids. And it's just a fantastic instinct. Honest hilarious podcast about being a mom hit. I didn't realize that that was what it was about. Yeah Yeah it's it's pretty pretty great i. I just went to see them live in Boston. And it was like standing room only at a rolling stones concert all these MOMS you know breastfeeding on the first row way. Definitely look up your sister Mr and like I like I mentioned with the book I am the type of woman who when you tell me about the podcast. I'm going to go to apple. I'M GONNA solve an underrated five stars and and it's not even the cost cost me eleven dollars one bad mother. That's right that's right that by the way. That is a trope from Helen's book that I actually I- stolen a tweet that I just wrote before I came to the House and I'm GonNa use more often where you say I'm the type of woman and then you ended with this kind of witty and that's for the new book is called. The new book is called that kind of woman. Oh great yeah I just got to finish. It just goes to show you have having that kind of construct draw. Yeah were the joke is really helpful. Southern Lady could came out of a piece that I wrote an American housewife because I myself serve decoding when I was saying for my friends. And there's a little story in so many call code called that kind of woman and the new book will be more essays and that's where that stem from of the sort of the natural progression. I'm trying to respect. Is there anything you might write about. Poker has poker come up in much of your writing yet. And they'll ask me that I think oh poker is much too intimate to right about as opposed to pornography and my ex God forbid I write about poker it is popped up like. There's a story in American housewife about a woman who stopped writing and starts playing. Poker Gra decides not to write again to sort of what I was going through at the time but I wrote the story and decided Oh alright again but poker has been part of my life. Since I was six years old there have been times years when I wasn't writing. But there's never been a time where I wasn't playing poker So it's very very near and dear to me and if you're not a player it's hard to make it interesting. I think. Sometimes you know I when I'm playing. I had this thing call virtual rail so on breaks tournaments. I write like ten different women in my life and I talk about a hand us all the language and they all wrote me back saying go ago. We have no idea what you're saying but go so it's I think it can be hard to make it interesting. I'm sure you could do. I could try try. I guess it's even harder better for you than some raiders. Because you're so much of your audience is women and they are less likely to have the reference points. Everyone you talk to they. You know when you when it comes up I played. Everybody wants to play. But it's so intimidating you know can be very intimidating and I say well it's going to continue to be I mean my motto auto is. It's okay to be scared. Don't play scared. And just the way it's GonNa be I love that motto. That's because you gotta realize is that you know. Fear is often a sense that you're doing something right nerves here and shows that you're taking it seriously that you're ready as you said to be brave and and You mentioned earlier Colson White Whitehead's portrayal of you reminding you that you are brave and I when I read that. It really gave me chills. I think it's like just such an important thing to say because poker players often when they're down on their luck they forget about how many people they had to surprise in order to take this bizarre career path that could lead them in some ways to many different new relationships and discovery discoveries. That's a great point. I think some of the most interesting people I've ever met I've met because a poker and I would never have met them in. You know the other circles of my life and my favorite is favorite things to be you know quietly sitting at a poker table and have some dude with the long beard and dark sunglasses glasses in a hoodie and flip flops. Come up and tap on the shoulder. Hi How are you and the whole table. Go what have you know that I kissed me a little St Pratt and I I love it. Poker is about taking risks but at some point it's possible to play in a way where it feels like. We're not taking as many risks as he should be. Were you already know the bluff spot so you don't don't really feel like Pat Yourself on the back for it anymore because it's just something that you're kind of like you know because of the math you don't feel like it's your card anymore you think. It's like the math. I think I think to myself you know I this this year. I haven't played much at all because I had the book came out and I was just storing a lot so I played this summer that the world series which was terrific but it was a complete bust. And I'm playing next week and I'm just giddy over it and it's been a long time. Yeah I'm not. The Gamble of writing is paying off for me right now. So I'm sort of sticking to those guns So I'm walking into play after a little bit of a dry spell but I can't wait. Oh yeah absolutely I. That's the thing I never get burnt out from poker poker failures have so much going on. They never get to play as much as I'd like to Annual last year I had a lot going on between my work for empowering women in Chas to My son of course to some poker urban centers playing in the West Coast. I was playing that much especially on the east coast. Like the Borgata So I I went there and I was reminded that I'm brave because few minutes after stepping in some women started chasing me with the with the bottle. Yeah you know if he is like I guess I. I'm a little brooding. I sometimes get into my own. Space blaming myself definitely didn't do anything wrong. No but she claimed that was staring at her her boyfriend. No it is possible. I sometimes do just kind of like space out but like this guy was not. This is not a attractive to me so it definitely flea was not that case but she was clearly intoxicated on. Yeah it was pretty scary rate that stop. How did you put a stop to it Well I I guess I'm really. I've never been shaved for the beer bottle and I hope I never will be. I have had cards thrown in my face before at the table. I tried talk to her. That's the problem. Maybe because I tried to explain that light your husband is an attractive tough spot does anything I said you. You just had this anger on her is that felt like God meet. Existing was really the broad low income. It's a good story then but I met. Yeah exactly that's the thing thing about being a writer and you're somebody poker players even if they're not raiders for content creators ray especially a lot of the more well known sponsored ones is now are feeling like they need to craft a semi edge. They're tweeting they're making youtube videos. And it does kind of feel like that. Either you win or something. Ridiculous happens funny happens and you have a good story in. It almost feels like there's this kind of mining for for entertainment and good story straight shape which could feel on an authentic. But I don't know I think to myself you know you said earlier. I think you said when you feel fear. It's usually something that you should do you. I'm not saying you shouldn't do which is really interesting and something. I have adopt a adopted. Is that the right word in my writing. Life is what I'm thinking about. The subject like poker. I'm afraid to write about it and usually when I finally do write about it turns out to be the best thing to write about what you're scared to write about like with the essay you mentioned walking out of my apartment. They Maxi pads to my back when I was twenty three years old and that turned out to be really good piece. That was. Yeah although I feel like once on somebody like you says that they were Slob when they were younger. Like I feel like you weren't you weren't a real slob. You're exaggerating like you were like a Slob. By the southern Southern Lake charm school sanders a legitimate was legitimate and again I have been known own to relapse. If you see the house a complete sti- The writing is going very well. 'cause I'm not I'm not waiting else but yeah my husband and has twenty four years. He can attest but I am a true Slob at heart. I think it'd be wonderful if you wrote about poker one day because it would be like you know it'd be away for I think women to think about potentially trying it out because a lot of women don't take enough risks with finance and I think the issue there is 'cause 'cause I given talks about women in finance in the relationship with poker and my issue is that not taking a risk is kind of like arrest. Yes because if you put your money just in like you you know one percents savings accounts than you're gonNA actually lose money because other people's money is growing at a much higher aid eight and then inflation lose money so I think that that is kind of like why poker is important for at least some women kind of understand that risk and really feel it. That is a really good point and for me. I have more emotional reason as women. We are taught to be quiet to not make a fuss to not fight and at the poker table. Poker is all about confrontation and to sit there and three bet I giant you know grizzly bear of a man to be a bully and I have to say the poker table. It's really fun to be quiet bully. It's really could could be quite empowering just being quiet and strong in your play and if you can sort of stand up to an aggressive person at a poker table in this is quiet way you can stand up to someone who's not treating you right in your day to day life in a quiet and strong way it just makes you more comfortable with taking taking care of yourself and sometimes taking care of yourself is pushing a bad element away. I think that's a great point and in poker. You're lucky because you get a lot of iterations so if you mess it up can try again over in life. Sometimes you know you have that meeting with like the disrespectful people whether they're men were women and later that day. Yeah I wish I'd said Xyz and you might not have a meeting like that for another year right so and poker you have to say a word which is terrific and the other thing is people I think. Think of what I like to play in. Why like planet casinos? I feel safe in the casino. I feel safe in a poker room if I take all your money. You can't sort of hold hold me up. You know because I've got the floor and security everywhere and there's a there's a feeling of safety which I don't think people associate or think about when it comes to a casino poker that it's a safe place but it's my safely certainly online online. If I played online for entry pounds I I can't I don't play online 'cause I think again. I think part of why my play is good is because the way I look. I don't look like I could hurt you. I Yeah I can. Yes you know. It's been so fun talking here. Helen this has just been wonderful. Actually by going through your work and some of your interviews I found it. I'm really personally inspiring and I hope a lot of our listeners. Do to that even a fifteen year old spell of writing downswing. You're able to overcome and you know. Unfortunately you're uplink quite as much poker because the writing is going so well but you love it so you'll always be with always and we can follow you at what. I do all day on twitter and on Instagram Graham at American housewife wonderful. And of course we can buy your books on Kindle Amazon whereas you mentioned that Twee Barnes and noble yes and you you can download the audio book and hear me read it to you if you like my voice. Well that's especially useful for poker players. Yes you should listen to an audio book. especially if you like bluffing laughing and then you listened to like the part. We say the the scene where there was the birthday party and like a shooting erupted. That wants Larry. Father Faked his own death for my thirteenth taste birthday. You wonder why I am the way that I am. I feel like if you're getting into really big POD and reading. That's in that story is being told you're going to start like giving off all these is Paul Styles. That guy definitely has it. We started with giggling. And we're ending with giggling while. Thank you so much. Watch out what I do all day. Helen Allah author and Poker Aficionado. WHO's been so gracious to be on the poker grade and I'm going to eat this vegetable and cream cheese powder fighter that keep it out for me? I hope so. Thanks for listening to the POKER DOT COM. Please Subscribe Review and tell your friends about your favorite episode if you support my projects consider a tax deductible donation to US jess women. We are working to even the mind sports playing field by bringing more women and girls into chats to next time as we count one hundred sixty nine buzz they say. No no no needs chief of my sleeve. You won't see me. See me stunned. The real saying.