Panel: Kashmir dispute
News i'm shy today provide you with in-depth news and it's the malices telling the whole story and the bigger picture the news you want to know today welcome to road today the panel discussion with me good n._f._l. The kashmir issue a dispute born out of the regions clo- new history was a flashpoint of two wars and a spate of armed conflicts between india yeah and pakistan over the past seventy years the situation which has worsened to once again following india's move on august faiths to revoke says a special status data's of indian administered kashmir and a split it into two union territories india's home minister amid shun made the announcement after the passage us of the bill better sections three seventy stops cashmere from uniting with india and today if we get approval of the house that obstacle will be removed forever indian prime minister narendra. Modi's says his decision to revoke kashmir is a special status east about boosting east economy. Islamabad has strongly condemned india's move with east prime minister imran ken denouncing it as illegal and protesters a flooded onto the street across pakistan. It's time time that the world understand the gravity of the situation. The world appreciates that pakistan is a party to defer cannot decide anything but out stan beeman when volt along with the pakistani government has dungarees data diplomatic relations and suspended bilateral trade with india and the prime minister has visited punky stan administered kashmir to reaffirm his support to the kashmiri people on pakistan's independence day for more on the development of the kashmir dispute and many possibilities openings and a questions left by india's move joining us in the studio for today's panel final dune hammered can visiting fellow at about and rhode sadr strategy institute at tsinghua university to an idea associated editor of the can do newspaper and dr roaming vice president and a senior research fellow at the china institute of international studies welcomed and gentleman so dr ron. Let's start with you so let's go through some basics here very briefly. Could you tell us more about the history in the region and what he's artistry hundred hundred seventeen all about washing to exit in the penalties and pakistan possibly they're in a better position to tell even though i as an expert out let's share my views that is exactly what should be the beginning of the interpretation of the articles three seventy the all the question or the dispute of jammu and the kashmir but very briefly i think it is it is about the the the status the status of the <hes> the dispute and the the the implications or interpretation of article three seventy that i too <hes> because of acceptances of the journal in the customer when a joined india and because of the i think the the the the special segment says that gives john cashew some special a status and which i think rather than in the in this in this part china's so much that's why i sing in. Yes <hes> the government i mean unilateral decision to jaw to scrapple this article raise a question certainly icing to pakistan astound wear always feel that it is up to that that and more importantly icing to the residency in the region even at this moment that we have not yet. I don't know what would it be responding even though because they are readily under curfew but we can expect their there'll be some some protests and violence when the co few released lifted a tool as we know that the region is the east adv the heart of a seventy year long dispute so is the major crux of the disputed from the indian perspective where it has gone to through various phases but to cut a long story short <hes> we arrived in nineteen seventy two <hes> which is called the shimla agreement between between pakistan and india and there is a line of control or integrion border which divides what we call as jomo in kashmir pakistan calls it side across the line of control as as out kashmir independent kashmir catch me so essentially if there is a dispute from indian perspective not there's a resolution in the indian parliament nine hundred ninety four which talks about the recovery of the remaining part of kashmir which is what has kashmir northern areas of pakistan are but that's i think just a legal position essentially league if you talk to indians and in fact in five very close to agreement between former prime minister manmohan singh and former mma pakistan president pervez musharraf to make this line of control which is something which is identified an endorsed by both sides tides as as a a soft border and a and then have people-to-people contacts and you have trade you have investment <hes> and economic development and jointly on either side so that is the last formulation of two thousand five. I do believe that if the dispute has is to be settled then we have to go back to that line of control their soft border and take it forward to negotiations at what should be the nuts and bolts of the settlement. I think that's where we are from. I'm not talking the indian governmental point of view but i'm talking of what generally public opinion has been and in fact the former indian prime minister also endorsed. Does this unfortunately that particular framework has not been developed since then it is on the table and we we had the two thousand in mumbai attacks that sort of set us back but otherwise i think that is the basic bare bones or this basic structure around which we can have the resolution of the kashmir dispute anything to add on a yes i agree with atoll's perspective his position in that for sure in two thousand and five the most recent time that both india and pakistan could have been on the same page with respect to a dispute. That's the most <hes> that's what's the biggest source of contention between both the countries and it really is the only major source of any instability or lack of and south asia but the question when you talk about kashmir today is that do indians today under the b._j._p. Government under this new administration do indians predominantly. I believe that kashmir is definitely there's and if they do then this is a problematic position to have whether or not india-pakistan could have reached a settlement in two two thousand five where indian occupied kashmir and azad kashmir could have been <hes> remained as they were administered by india and pakistan both whether at that could be a solution we don't know as yet both the countries have to sit together and bilaterally agree mutually agreed to the solution but by changing the status of kashmir mirror of indian-occupied kashmir and by the home minister's beddington home ministers a statement that this will help kashmir integrate with india. What you're essentially redoing is going against any commitments made to pakistan in the past and i think this is something that <hes> i. I definitely think that this is something which can only aggravate the situation because it presupposes that part of kashmir is definitely to remain with endeavor as pakistan always talks about a plebiscite or at least a mutually agreed way forward so let you anything to respond. I think with the vocation of article three seventy we have taken their administrative measures. <hes> <hes> repealing of indian law which was a presidential order passed in nineteen fifty four so essentially the basic basic element as far as pakistan is concerned which is the line of control. There is no change on that and line of control is something thing which will agreed upon by indian pakistani surveys and nine hundred seventy two bilateral agreement and understanding our foreign minister was here three days back and he door the chinese interlocutors that the line of control the sanctity of remains so there is no change essentially in the position as far as pakistan goes and like the sanctity of ryan of control is a solemn commitment by the foreign minister of india. <hes> i see that that basic formulation doesn't change of yes. Actually i saw that argument to say that the effect will border which which you mentioned the line of control is not being altered a so revoking the special status actually wounded don't have that much of impact is well. The thing is that it could by changing by removing article three seventy. It's true that for pakistan article twee seventy in and of itself is not relevant because it is part of the constitution. It's an internal matter. This is something that prime minister ron said this is the pakistan official position. The fact is that by removing this article. You're changing the conditions the basic potentially the demography of indian-occupied kashmir and that equally is it's problematic for pakistan's as well as good okay but if you change the demography then how can actually pre do resident. I am very good appointed as danso ways of the reduction of the line of control well the reduction of the article three seventy. The line of control won't be the national. Oh butter of india right distiller integrion border between between india and pakistan <unk> vocation article seventy is the other point resumed swoon is making whether it lead to people outside kashmir buying property and land and therefore probably changing the demography in meat zooming that it'll make me reason to a minority in that in that province. I think that's that's a big big stretch as to whether we are going to have people coming and settling in droves when conditions are unstable so i doubt that's going to happen. There's also this argument pitches coming that india is going to practice squad and pakistanis a settler colonialism <hes> something with this and little bit later so complete dispute so dr romanian. What's your reflection on those. I assume the very fact that are india and pakistan colleagues. They don't agree with z. Charter about the some basic facts shows that we are talking about indeed a dispute and of course depending on whether the legal argument into political argument or whatever i think it is for sure <hes> the dispute and india and pakistan are the relevant parties are to that and the question is that how i mean whether india in some way i mean as your colleagues talking about whether they have the right or have the legal it is legal for them to make make the such kind of changes i mean this is something <hes> certainly. I think <hes> we need to look at very carefully. <hes> we certainly can refer to the agreements or understanding the other being the two sides that are being reached and that as being also recognized by international community so i i know foremost i believe that the u._n. Sort of a related resolutions so you are the principles of and purpose of the u._n. Charles should be coming into play at the most important thing the second thing is it again. Equally important is the bilateral understandings agreements. Mike colleagues <hes> i mean from india he mentioned about the nineteen seventy due to a similar agreement and i look at this agreement that very carefully and <hes> i would allow refer to one of the provisions took ami related to that breath for me for example the article one and article one the second part it talked about the two sides which is very important the right the two countries trees are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between then then then the next sentence very important. I quote pending a final settlement. <hes> any of the problems between the two countries i think he referring to jam one concussion meal problem. Neither side should unilaterally alter the situation and then ended up coat in both the prevent or whether the so i think from from the viewpoint of that and a provision what the indian dom contrary at antioch contradicts icing the understanding that the <hes> the india pakistan so a tool. How do you respond standing third party. Okay thanks talk to rose ought to how do you respond to that and also some argue that prime minister moody's move to tighten control over majority kashmir is the gamble dacoota trigger conflict between muslims and hindus in india as some people have accused of the prime ministers of trying to humiliate indian muslims by imposing more control control over the muslim dominated region. So what do you think about the view. Two things regarding agreement first shimla agreement as i understand understand is that the resolution of the dispute between german domain kashmir will be by literally decided by india and pakistan pedia as regards what happens in dernley to the area and you. I do not see this inauguration saying categorically that you can't change anything inside because if if you look on the pakistani side what the call i mean there have been numerous changes which have taken place is nine hundred seventy. Two thousand india created no objection to that in fact act even when it comes to so called support for communities you have <hes> genuine kashmir liberation front being banned from contesting elections in two thousand six because because just not agreeing to simulation in pakistan so i do not see that what happens on this side of the line of control is israeli in any way violative of the agreement what happens is that the solution has to buy literally phone and that is the only thing which has been agreed by the parliament elements of india and pakistan the u. N. resolutions have not been agreed by either side including if you see the constitutional so call that kashmir also does not accept that as the template for resolution so the u._n. Is dead in its resolution of this concern. It was superseded pursued by one thousand nine hundred and the lead kofi annan in a visit to india in two thousand one said at best the the the u._n. Can be a fringe document and not something which can be applied now and three days back. If i see statement off the secretary general of the united nations in gadhafi's here's mentioned again the shimla agreement as a way forward so i think the agreement is something which india and pakistan agreed to start that template and then date two thousand five agreement these together can show us the way forward and once we have some success that may be something else can come up as in the positive direction but i think going back to nine hundred forty eight those issues are grozd the need to have a fresh beginning and we already have the legal formulations for that <hes> so you mentioned the united nations secretary general tonio hotel on august a knife life referred to to the nineteen seventy two shimla agreement which rejects any third party on the issue a what a stat agreement all about <hes> dune to so you to pakistan side and it was he indicating that the united nation won't stab eating as on this issue you know actually before before we come to the simla agreement. I think i think <hes> first of all professor wrong read out a very important flaws in simla agreement which was not to change the basic basic situation on either side of the border so i don't i cannot agree without any says that it's all about the line of control and changing that that border which and anita side both countries can do whatever they want. I'm not sure what exact change is focused on brought about that can be compared to removing this particular article in the constitution russian of india but i do have a question for the indian site. What is the reason to do this if it provokes so much anxiety towards pakistan what is the reason what kind of development requires a curfew pellet guns this situation is is a horrible. It's shocking for people within india as well not to mention that obviously the act itself was unconstitutional for india but i just don't understand what the reason was and the only the only thing that makes sense is that because the indian government and certain al soda propaganda has taunted the emphasize that kashmir is a bottle of india and this goes against whatever understanding both india and pakistan can possibly have in the future <hes> to always being there seventy years already a why change inge now because i know there are other stays in india like a knuckle into for one a which also has a special status that hasn't been changed why kashmir mirror very very important question why and why now and then you have to broaden the picture and you have to take into into context what has really happened pundits that their immune changes going to take place in afghanistan and we see the return of the taliban most probably as the the most powerful force we have the example of nine hundred eighty nine when the anti-soviet jihad ended and it was immediately started by a floor or militants from afghanistan into kashmir and that's where the rebellion really takes takes off and the proof of that has already come tom because among the fifteen thousand militant skilled between one thousand nine hundred ninety nine and two thousand to three thousand of them are foreign fighters including afghans so there is no doubt that one thousand nine thousand nine hundred trigger which led to the inflow from afghanistan into academy. We suspect that the similar understanding understanding between pakistan taliban is going to take place and wants taliban. I firmly in place and the u._s. Leaves of ghanistan the floodgates are going to open and on kashmir and therefore the tightening of control on kashmir is a preemptive security step more more than anything else. It's it's a security step that is not to say that they're not ideological reasons as well but the urgency offer to security related so the that's-that's the explanation which i have as to why it was done now and not later because we do not want to record in the situation in one thousand nine hundred nine which has caused so many lives to indians into into spins doom when i was supporting terrorism mesa accusation popular physician from indian side so was her respond to us. Oh you don't i i mean i don't understand the link between <hes> between gunnison and i really don't have because i'm thinking what could have triggered this response sponsored. The timing makes sense with the recent meeting with nina mankayane president trump but this is to suggest that any possible solution to the afghan situation would result in india tightened control over kashmir which is already the most militarized region in india fi security measures in kashmir concerned. We have a lot of people within india saying that it's too much and actually what's what indian-kashmir indian-occupied kashmir experiencing some kind of blowback off the policies. He's of the central government so i just don't understand how curfew arresting leaders who are pro center pro union including the former former chief minister of kashmir does anything to help the situation <hes>. It's maybe it's very complicated. <hes> you mentioned about the lockdown in the region. We don't occur implemented two and a no internet in the indian minister region and people now leaving on food aid which will last about three months will the people get through through this and how ordinary muslims in kashmir reacting to what's happened a tool yeah. I'll just respond to this but before i do that i just i want to talk to you. The united nations security council al-qaeda sanctions committee report fish came in july just just a month ago. That report says the taliban bon al qaeda linked with pakistan army and i._s._i. Are in linking up in afghanistan. This is not something which i have invented. This is the al-qaeda u._n._h._c._r. al qaeda sanctions committee report of july so it is not the apprehension off militancy flowing from afghanistan into kashmir now these organiz ation alaska detroit specifically kashmir center organizations so it's is quite clear from the united nations point of view as well that the apprehensions from being inside a not not wrong coming back to the curfews and the problems which which other at this time i do not think that any place can under permanent logged on. It's impossible for any state. Russo irrespective india-pakistan pakistan anybody else so i see it. There should be a gradual easing of the of the lockdown which is very intense. I agree with you there. It should take place because they were three. Benchmarks was eat which is passed us now. Second <hes> was <hes> was the friday prayers and the third was a fifteenth august india's independence. All three are behind us. We should see a gradual coming together of normalcy and the removal of the curfews and restrictions on internet and telephone lines. It shouldn't be happening now. In fact there is there kashmiri newspapers which already approved indian supreme court because newspapers or coming out of senator right now the capital of the moon kashmir and the supreme court is going to have a hearing on wednesday on that so i do see the doors very negative that the the the lockdown but within a week or ten days as you're going to see a media raising of it in fact jamal region has already restrictions have been lifted so we have the valley now which is problematic and i do see eh next wednesday when the supreme court meets that we are gradually going to have the district so as to omission jammu and kashmir. Mary involves areas namely lakota daca <hes> la duck jammu and kashmir and jamila duck always had different priorities kashmir kashmir always wanted to maintain a certain identity as a muslim dominated region will they their dominance of indian revoke the special status. This is the question that i think <hes> we cannot answer right now. It's probably the fact that the article has been moved. Put that situation nation under some kind of scrutiny will they be able to what if they're being forced to sell their lands. We know that there is a lock town of recently shop as a <hes> if i'm not wrong one of the one of the leaders was also arrested because he voiced his concerns about this situation the human situation of the curfew itself how people are being treated. The fact is that i just don't understand why it had to be so drastic. Mean what good could be achieved achieved out of this what could seven hundred thousand troops not achieve that seven hundred and fifty thousand will is beyond me. Yeah indeed thanks. That's all the time time for the first half for the second. Half will continue our discussion. You're listening now. He's road today with me. Ghana stay tuned yeah. Uh-huh uh-huh. I am on kochavi. I teach at the university india india today has organized its programs and <hes> on bringing in a lot of views from i'm all over it is an extremely good platform for information and analysis that night. We should all success in the future. China plus dot cri dots in is your home for everything you want to know about china the latest news news in china and everything china-related from around the world. Everything can focus all in one place bringing you vital information feel business and travel chinese culture language learning and more shine applause dot cri dot c. n. China plus dot cri dot c. n. Your portal in today's middle kingdom them online on air and on your phone tate today wherever you go and still ahead of what's changing changing our world from politics and the economy to business and technology today covers regional and international issues that affect china and the world jeep up to date with today <music>. You're listening to the panel discussion of the world today with me. Let's go back to our panel on the current situation in kashmir region so pakistani augustan the prime minister imran. Ken house visited pugs. Dan administered kashmir amid the ongoing tensions with india during the independence day can has threatened to coat teach adelie a lesson and avowed to fight until the end against any indian violations in disputed kashmir or yugoslavia to pakistan. Go put up india as your plan to attack on pakistan administered kashmir once again. I warn you get ready. We are fully prepared to respond. The time has come when we will teach india a lesson so join us in the studio stew we have joan hamid can visiting shooting fellow at the bowed and road strategy institute a tsinghua university a to nigel associated editor of the hindu newspaper and dr rowing vice president and and a senior research fellow at the china institute of international studies so doing how do you understand teach india lesson. What kind of measures might be you know might be referring referring to you know in that anti speech in mankind was addressing the assembly of <hes> assad kashmir and the entire speech was about mainly that india and pakistan really have a lot in common and there's so much more that they can cooperate on and schmear is the only difference the only point of contention he gave a lot of examples from climate change to trade to people-to-people the people contacts prosperity etc so this is just one of his speech where after saying that i've offered again and again not only ron con the previous prime communists as well. We've asked india time and again. It's on the record various platforms to let's let's talk. Let's discuss how to move forward and for ron con this. This is a situation where in kashmir's a lot of tension obviously people are stressed out. They relate with the cause of kashmir for pakistan. It's always been about a plebiscite the majority of the pakistanis the idea is that the media should they have the right to serve determination so if i'm ron con for now he said in assam we don't offensive war is not on the table and defensive war is but firstly what we've done is cut off ties and we will do everything to support the kashmiri is instead of going through immense hardships that we don't even know about until the curfews removed <hes> so what do you think he means when he says pakistan will teach india a lesson jason. Do you think this is a defensive words. No i don't think this defensive. This is absolutely offensive because you don't have to see this in isolation. Here's there's also compared our prime minister to hitler. He has talked about genocide the possibilities of genocide in kashmir right so these are extremely and then also about the possibility -ality of regional instability with the the nuclear weapons by both countries as the subjects. He's talked about ucs compared in yugoslavia that what might happen cash media distributes mexico and he's talked about ethnic cleansing which is taking place. These are all coming together. Oh god franken my own view on this is that this is both for the domestic audience to show that you are taking action because kashmir is important issue schwinn pakistan and second thing is for the international community to come and intervene to say that there is going to be some extreme atrocity going to take place and and especially your together nations and ward in this whole process and international is the situation so i do see where it comes from but these are extremely provocative words which chuck coming from the other side. I don't see how india can be. Musician can be compared to genocide or anything because what you do have is all comparison between the israeli and palestinian situation which is also coming up to two troop through pakistan. Nobody has removed kashmir's off the land and common occupied the land as the israelis are done in the case of the palestinians is fundamentally different different. Only thing what has happened actually in talk about ethnic cleansing is the kashmira pundits of hundreds of thousand were displaced from their land and and had to go into the future camps between eighty nine and ninety four so i do not see this argument this is this is politics and this is also to internationalize and to get the u._n. Involved in it i understand actually there are fairs the from the kashmir region and cost we we know there are hindus sikhs and other groups in the region leave peacefully. Are they really fear about organic cultural intermingling or incremental genocide because of the change zoom. It seems i mean i do think that first of all i would also like to respond to what adult said i think what am on connoisseurs third is anything but offensive given the fact that the statements coming out of india are extremely harsh towards the kashmiri people calling kashmir indian-occupied unoccupied joe mine kashmir. A part of india in itself is a violation of basic commitments that have been made to them. I mean i just don't think i mean it's true that pakistan and india i try and it's very hard to be on the same page but the fact that kashmir is being is in a state of complete lockdown at this at this point in time is quite quite telling of where the kashmiri people themselves stand. Let's not talk about them. In not talk about islamabad. Let's talk about the people inside german kushner the muslims of jammu kashmir schmear. What expectations do they have their government. Why is why does this reaction exists. Why are people leaders being arrested wise. They're a feel vio of voicing opinions so these are all questions that not only pakistanis but also indians need to answer for themselves and we know pakistan has decided to downgrade great diplomatic relations and suspended bilateral trade with india and we'll also seek help from u._n. Security council moreover the government also has decided need to observe independence day this year as kashmir solidarity day to show pakistan's to support any unity where the people of the indian administered mr d- kashmir edition the also marked the second day of pakistan's independence day which is the indians independence day as the black friday this year ways ways of flags on government buildings flown at half-mast to protest the indians decision so our tool. How do you see this series of actions from pakistan how strong of the signal pakistani ascending to india where i don't think you know it is one thing to express solidarity with the kashmiri's and and quite another to call indian independence day a black day. I don't think that has gone away. Well india as i see why this is being done is a because of domestic reasons. You need to show that you are with the kashmiri so therefore these such language and such such measures ages have been dated as far as india is concerned india has said that <hes> this downgrading of diplomatic relations between the two countries has not been abused idea and we have also an accepted that this will not mean any fundamental change in our in our basic understandings on the line of control and otherwise so i really think <hes> the only the only problem from the thirteenth regarding i i must refer to this is that this is a muslim majority area and therefore deserves special status india's a secular country. Now all citizens equal do not differentiate from the case of religion caste cleaning agenda so i do not see india buying an argument which is against the grain of our very very constitutional fundamentals <hes> so dr ron what's sure take on the harsh words from both sides. Oh that's exactly i international community including china has been concerned and let me just before foy answer your question go back to the argument why india why <hes> why india that and why this time. I think the security argument for me is difficult to accept to dubai rather for me. It is more kind of political sort of uh decision as we all know that b._j._p. Has kind of agenda that the what the lie they have campaign they they put an ad up at as manifesto that they want to implement and related to that the other i mean soda <hes> platform warm and about the uniform the what's the route the random poll issues and the uniform code owed civil court civic code all these are related to the sort of the treatment if i can see of the mostly in the relationship relationship within the muslims are minority group and the hindus and that's exactly reason why in pakistan as being very much concerned and because related touch upon the deep rooted issue in the division between india and pakistan that is the identity issues for inc for right and wrong wrong. I think pakistan is being the the partition of pakistan from india and pakistan because it cannot could not agree with with each other and of course two nations theory whatever right and wrong that is what the pakistan believes and i so having instead that i only want to say that <hes> as the attention as being riding and now we have seen reports is that they are actually sharing across the line of control caudine casualties and the danger and the risk of that that tension may me round <hes> high so i only want to say that <hes> if it is for the security reasons and i'd be the indian government made a very bad mistake aac by and it's going to be really counter productive you mentioned about the casualties <hes> near the border of control the line of control on the conflict between india and pakistan over kashmir escalating and last night a cross-border fired killed three pakistani and a five indian troops even though to even though indian force denies the karate so are we going to see more of this in the future and does cease fire agreement mean anything to both is a tool i don't. I don't think that this is going to go beyond a certain threshold there vice people bill both on either side of the border who know that we are now nuclear weapon states and therefore you cannot escalate military inches beyond the point and i think there is there is also enough communication despite what is happening between our two sides both at the diplomatic and at the military level a a ended the intelligence level so i do not see this going beyond the point is in is in the interest of neither countries and neither is it going to affect the domestic domestic politics of either side so i don't see this escalation reaching a point of what some people alarmist say that this is this can create another war between this country. Not that is not going to happen. I won't react to one point with with my colleague dr wrong and that is the afghan issue. I think is very important but i think it's been. It's not been diplomatically correct to leave india out of the afghan dialogue. You have china the united states pakistan taliban in ward in their dialogue pakistan. Deliberately does not want to come into this dialogue but given the implications of i've gone to transition on india. I think we need to think about including india in in the mainstream of gun dialogue and if we have india into that perhaps some of the fears which we have of a post-taliban situation. Maybe awarded preempted the right time because we are talking to each other and there's enough confidence with each other. Let's talk talk back to the military confrontation. It's been reported that boasts pakistan a and india have started to move military equipment or extra troops to the de facto border between the two size but last week a pakistani foreign minister hamdan window quraish has made a statement to saying that pakistan is looking at political diplomatic and legal options not looking at military options so xundu and do detect a change in pakistani side on the use of military measures. I think i will i call a adults perspective on this as well. We are both members of the shanghai corporation organization amongst other things and of course it doesn't suit either side that a full blown conflict takes place between the countries. Neither of us can can afford it for our own reasons but it's also under the mandate it is not countries can be in order to member states can be inactive conflict so there are a lot of a the regional players actors countries china included especially that can allow india and pakistan to understand their own positions. I definitely feel you that. Conflict is not a possibility for these and various other reasons <hes> so dr rone generally speaking. We know a pakistani minister said the pakistan should not lead cashmere become another palistan. What's your take on that. Well kashmir become another palestine. I'm not sure whether it will become another palestine but it definitely is not different the kashmir ever since that <hes> square i mean abrogation i would come back to the so the the confidence or the optimism of what would it be happening. Between india and pakistan in the wake of this development certainly is single you hope and wish that i mean cool-mindedness would prevail and there will be as lucky added added used to be but there is a possibility there are possibility that miscalculation though miscommunication can cause problems and this is particularly nicoli true in this region where as i said that so many a differences of their problems and they are such a kind of a contentious issue. That's why i think china at the very beginning made very clear watching the situation the very carefully and as expressed grave concern serious concern about development. We've with a make every possible effort to make sure that the cast collision would not pay attention not wrong chi and they're the two sides both india and pakistan will exercise prudence and restraints so that the developed the issue would be resolved in a peaceful way <hes> you mentioned the china's role in this dispute. India is looking into yeast tensions in asia as external affairs minister. Justin car was on the three day. Visit china this week and beijing has sharply criticized the indians the as decision saying he undermined china's terry territorial sovereignty as well. The visit came after pakistan for minister trip to beijing last last week so dr rone china has urged india to exercise prudence on the kashmir region after the indian government announced the region <hes> what he called a la duck tuck as union territory where theories of western sector of the china indian boundary so what's your take on china's stance on this issue i sing visits to visits by in pakistan foreign minister and india minister foreign minister take place in different circumstances for the pakistan for a municipality was sort of urgent to one allow the indian foreign minister was much sort of a plan the earlier in the i think the major purpose for his for the visit was to add do at the <hes> to the so-called high level cultural and and the people the people in tahrir but given the circumstances development. I mean it duh. It did provide a very good opportunity for the for china and india to locate issues to talk about issues and on this particular point i think chen actually make two important pinpoint the wind near that i said the very beginning and concern implications for india's decision but equally important is that china is very much which is concerned about the impact on china's own interest territorial integrity as you rightly said of course china made very clear that it had no effect at all on china's territorial integrity and china china would never accept that and and with because of that i think the <hes> indian side expressed three three knows meant to sort of explain expeditions and <hes> but i think china stu looking for the light to seek more clarification applications more importantly our the believe that china is still watch him very carefully that the point china is and what did i make is that i think i think the position that china taking the reasoning is that china attached great importance to the peace and tranquillity <hes> security of the region egion attach great importance relationship <hes> both to china to india and pakistan but more importantly is in china does not want developed l. apply that complex at more complications to the ongoing development of the poverty racial between china and a okay so a two hour was consideration of the both sides especially from india side to approach china for the issue as a <music> as wronging dr wronging just said i agree with him but jason 'cause visit that is a formula visit was not immediately as a response response either to august fifth development or the pakistan foreign ministers visit this visit was planned in advance but since there there was a urgent situation which had to be addressed he went out of his way at explained in great detail to the chinese side that the change of status on the dock into union territory has new implications on indian positions on the line of actual control so you're and there was no ought cartographic change in terms of territory as a result of the formation. La dark has a union territory. The good thing is that if the chinese side is tim not satisfied then we are going to have the special representatives boundary talks quite soon in new delhi which will focus precisely the in great depth on these particular issues so that there is enough confidence which is built if <hes> if there is a need for that during during those those stocks walks. I just want to make a brief point. I think china has expressed earlier since it is engaged both with india and pakistan in fact the words used were were mediation at one light at one time i would only like an request the chinese side that if you have to look at the kashmir situation holistically you can just look at the human rights situation or alleged violation of human rights in the valley and not look at the prison celestica toyota network jatia mohammed these are some of them are pure organization which have been banned by the united nations but which have been created precisely for that kashmir jihad that we have two balances out and it is good for pakistan. If you eliminate this it creates a model pressure india to go in for talks resolve issues so i think there are many many moving parts of kashmir and if you want to play a role in it then you to address all the moving parts and not selectively look at only one one apart and not the other so doctor if i may icing on the question of of terrorism counterterrorism china's position very clear consistent is china is opposed house to i mean terrorism all manifestation whenever and wherever the question i think the point make at always that i i said the very beginning and has been talking about this whole evening is that china's india's move china is as create or provoked the way that making way that for these militant or terrorist sort of organizations to to provoke or to create a apartments violence for the region for the general in the kashmir and for for the region at large so that's exactly the reason china i are very much concerned and china hope that the india inside the sh- sh- would not take the decision a policy in more serious and responsible way. I think terror attacks <hes> do not take place spontaneously especially where organizations lush goya audition which are based in pakistan unless there is logistical support coming from there so i think it's important that something more is done to ensure and go by what the united nations take these are. These are banned organizations by the u._n. Did has to be greater focus on elimination of the terror infrastructure in pakistan as us part of a larger process of resolving kashmir <hes> actually the the sacrifice and also the efforts from the puck stance side on the anti-terrorism antiterrorism east recognized not only china also by the road. How will you respond to that. I think this is not this word. I've heard repeatedly yeah <hes> these these are very popular words to use for song from indian side and i can understand concerns on both sides but just to think that focus on has banned the same same organizations that other name just now and and the fact that we can repeat these arguments again and again shows that we really need another way forward baucus on an india both members of the s._e._o. I say that again and again because this is an organization that can help us both recognize the threats we face our mutual. Well terrorism extremism separatism. We can sit on the same table we negotiate we can discuss we can have dialogue but india has consistently refused to do that and it's not just impact on skis. I mean even with respect to the b._r._i. India is the only country that opposes it dialogue with pakistan india pauses it it but india wants to be on the table when it comes to talks with respectable guy aniston of course india is a stakeholder in the region but you have to have good dialogue with your neighbors birth to actually earn their trust as well so i think indian focus on both should recognize that pakistan has made tremendous sacrifices. The aftermath to matt of the afghan war was the largest for pakistan. The kinds of it sacrifices that pakistan has made are immense and yet we thought if there is a solution the afghan war we welcome it because of more aniston is not good for anyone so this kind of a knee jerk reaction seems a little misplaced and misguided okay. We have limited time so less moving forward another way forward so what's next what impact do this dispute a will have on relations between india and pakistan and the what impact back to where we have <hes> have on these security and the economy in asia dr rome well the s-o-f-i single have already seen the the sort of negative impact and if not danger danger and their relationship is being really bad and so we have that five prancer responses from the pakistan side and cutting trade and diplomatic dangrek don't even and and for me i think that is just exactly the opposite i think of advised india's concerned if if india really wonder how seriously seriously about <hes> improved normal relationship <hes> for the region as as we have seen that we're very much concerned that they'll put a rising tensions and which may cause miscalculations and we know that the they are the two i saw the nuclear powers and then the danger no one can <hes> the risk is i think nobody can can afford that so so so the way we would let see let us see that too. I mean the the indian side. I think has expressed that still. I want to have a normal relationship the one to talk with pakistan if they're sierras earned that let us hope that they'll do. I mean way to to do that but okay on certain to on thank you. Unfortunately we ran out of time for today's panel discussion. That's it for this edition of whoa today. Thanks to all of our guests for being with us and your insightful opinions dune hamilton can visiting fellow at the bow down road a strategy institute chiu-wai university university a tool unedu- associate editor of the hindu newspaper and dr rowing wise president and a senior research fellow at the china institute of international snow studies. Thank you so much for joining us and have a nice weekend <music>.