Steve Cochran and Kim Geiger: Why Chicago might not be ready for the socialism question


Good afternoon from Chicago on Chuck Todd. And this is the Chuck Todd gas today show Bernie standard sticks to script for the speech today. George Washington University designed to explain what he means by the phrase democratic socialism, and why he says it's actually a callback to FDR's new deal. But will the twenty sixteen playbook work in twenty twenty especially if somebody needed Hillary Clinton is running President Trump and former vice president Biden have been making trails and this week Trump's trying to make up nice with farmers who were caught in are still caught in the tariff crossfire and Biden's opening that the split screen helps him as he posts what looks like a bit of softness in that first Iowa caucus poll out with him in the race. He's facing some Iowa Democrats who are wondering took them so long visit we've got two great Chicagoans on with us today. Kim data from the Chicago Tribune and Steve Cochran who host the morning show and WGN radio and has me on his show every Thursday as we talk politics. And then some, some bear bashing when I can, yes you do. So Mr. Cochran, thank you for returning the favor and welcome. So Kim, I'm gonna start first of all with sort of the politics of the moment, you know, how local is I woulda Chicago. And I say this in that there was times when I first started covering politics. Chicago Tribune, had had they were the first stop after the divine register because they owned Isla in ways, and this is the eighties nineties, and they and they felt a connection and presidential candidates felt as if boy, a better do well, because a lot of people also care about what the Chicago Tribune has to say do you have that sense of ownership of Iowa in the same way? I would say no. I think the media landscape has changed a lot since then here, I would say, we're definitely very, very focused on what's happening in Chicago politics. Which is the Chicago way they love their own politics. Yes. A lot of material. I well, that's why here that's what you get to be a stand up comedian. And talk. Right. Right, right. Yeah, we're interested in what's going on with state politics. We've had a lot of interesting stuff happening in state politics in the past two years. I alwa- you know it's a nearby state. But do we, we don't we don't have the same abrasion that we used to have? No. And people to judges going to open his head, I headquarters of sorts here Steve Cochran. Is that going to bring more presidential buzz to Chicago probably, but eventually, as you know, it'll be here, anyway, because you'll be forced to keep coming back, and I know much like this. Buddha. Tages just fascinating guy. And we'll Chicago wrap their arms around the mayor of southbound. Yeah. There's no Notre Dame spite when it comes to him. You know, it's going to be something come up. There's going to be a bump in the road, but he will be huge when he's here and I'm not sure as he come through Sunday, fundraisers any mature V as yet. But yeah, I think he's going to have a good time in Chicago. Yeah, no, and I know that he wants to make an in smart to me. But let me Kim, I want to actually use that use the mayor's race a little bit to talk about sort of does Bernie Sanders and democratic socialism have traction in a in Illinois democratic circles, does that have traction, or is this is it because of the machine, like, and I say this, because in one way or Lightfoot broke the machine, sort of we can decide whether she's a member or not, but at this, and that sort of, but I think she would call herself more of an outside than an insider. It side by Rahm Emanuel. But point point taken I guess is their openness to Bernie Sanders style politics in Illinois, or Chicago. I think definitely if you just look at the twenty sixteen primary results I mean he, he lost an annoy, but it was close. He wants Chicago. Right. Isn't that the issue I think he did? Did he hit it better in Chicago? Yeah. I mean, that's sort of typical standard story of annoy. Right. It's more much more liberal over here than downstate kind of even things out a little bit. CIA divide south of eighty where starts where I begin to yes. Yeah. So I think definitely, there's a there's a market for it for sure. I think what you saw in the mayor's race as well as people here are agitated. They're frustrated. I think there's a frustration with the sense of this machine is kind of running things. And so there isn't interest in looking at options beyond what is like, quote, unquote, the establishment option. Stephen. This is a weird moment because Chicago, the Democratic Party of Illinois is a machine. Success story, still at the same time the rest of the Democratic Party has established being blown up left and right. It is weird to me. I always feels, sometimes we're like a fish out of water that what's happening in the Democratic Party nationally. Illinois's immune to it still. Well, you know, the Madigan thing that you and I have discussed on many occasions and for those that don't realize basically, the same dude has been running democratic the democratic controlled legislature in some form or another Mike Madigan for pretty much my entire life. Yeah. The speaker of the house speaker of house day. Right. And as you pointed out on the show, the last big political Boston country, there's nobody like him left. Nobody left shell still silvers in New York's headed to jail, willy Brown's retired. There's nobody left so for him to continue to run the party of the way does, is what secured in the same way that at Burke, until recently when the cuffs came out was able to help run Chicago, the democrat. It's almost like a triangle of power from Springfield to Chicago to whoever is making the deal with those two gentlemen between Burke and Madigan. They're both guys now Meghan hasn't been indicted, and I don't know if he will. But the Republicans have essentially abdicated, the stay they've said, well, we'll give what we can. And then the weird part when you roll it. In is we've had Republican governors often on for a while, and it's all because of people's discussed with the democratic machine. They don't know where else to. They don't know where else to express that disgust. Right. Right trustworthy. No question about it. So what does this mean for Joe Biden, and I say this because in a weird way he's the machine candidate. Yeah. And I just wonder is this is mean Chicago's democratic communities gonna rally around the winter, and that's what will help, or, or is that is that my over thinking, oh, I'm sure that Chicago's democratic community will rally around the winner that I have no no doubt about an our primaries way later in the season two. So it's very possible that there will be a better sense of who the winner is by the time it even comes around down to two or three and Biden, the sokaia town for, but everytime by in town, does very well a lot of money comes up for him here traditional democratic money. Right. Yeah. And the thing that, that continues to amaze me is I just don't think it's that hard to. Figure out next year even now because I think it comes down to who the Democrats pick, you know, if the Democrats pick somebody that is either unlikable, right? And one hundred million people stayed homeless, if you call people to stay because people to stay home supposed to come out and vote for somebody. Well, then yeah, Trump's got a good chance of ruining my next for years as well as this to both of you since you're not in New York, or Washington. You're not Acela corridor. Does it look like do you get concerned Kim, that your out of touch with the news? You're covering or that were out of touch with the news. You're covering. Yeah. Give me an example. Let's see. So I'll give you an example from yesterday. Like I woke up in the morning, and there was a story about how Trump was going to say something based off of what Biden was going to say, and I'm like, man, I'm supposed to care about what they're gonna say before they've even set it, and I just don't even think that anyone around me is even aware of professional in your professionally obligated to care. Exactly. And I can't imagine that anybody else is has any ban with for this at all. And, and so, so it's it's a weird time. I feel like maybe six months from now. It'll feel more clear. But at this moment, like your average person here in the midwest is not thinking. Steve. What happens when you just tell them about the seventeen investigations that are going on in the house, about President Trump? Right. Those just goes right into where I wanna go with. And those that stand in front of him still standing for out of them, but the others do get louder. And you know what really wakes up people around here, I think, throughout the midwest, potholes than and the dismissive nature of the flyover country, the mid west the heartland, who's who's dismissing it. I I'm sorry, I don't I'm gonna push back on this because I was raised by mid westerners. Right. My mother more sellin away, my father, Waterloo, Iowa, and I was raised with this chip that all mid westerners, either native or if you're move here. Right. Kim, you get the chip out. I don't care about us on the coasts. It's not grow, you decide every goddamn presidential election Cochran right? But and you know, this because I'd say this fear is will there are members of our profession, collectively, the three of us who only live in that New York to Washington corridor. It's a problem and. Chicago is just the cute big city in the midwest. And you know, people tire of that dancer, your original. No, and that and that I get on that front. But mask it this another way with short of. What was the what's been the impact of Trump and the Republican party in general, using Chicago as a foil, which was mostly during the Obama years? But using Chicago is a foil on violence on guns. You name the issue. It was always. Oh, yeah, but Chicago. Oh, yeah. But Chicago has it reverberated against Trump that it is it made his business as hotel hurt? I I'm just curious. How has it impacted the community the Trump properties, you cannot sell them. Now, they're having the same problem in New York and just the antidote cabbies hero. Tell you drivers will tell you people live there. They will give you the street address. They tell you take me to Trump Tower. I'm kidding Trump. Hotel hotel, occupancy is Dan had four or five star restaurant. It'd be three star so be alive. Starch upstairs, the six star Trump. Oh, it's fabulous about ever. Got down. Yeah. So, you know, Chicago is to New York. It's to every major city. It's like, you know, we are just sick of the stupidity as everybody else's in Trump. There's too much going on here for Trump to grind to a halt or for us to go. How dare the president say that because if you're against I it's hard for you to picture Trump as president anyway. So I don't know that he's damaged. He hasn't damaged the image here nationally. That's what I want her tourism. Yeah. And I think he's hurt business to some degree. Yeah. I would say internally pocket the most annoying thing, letting people are most annoyed about us that sign on his building, is it so huge. There's been fighting decides of Trump signs. He flew a flag, that was too big and Palm Beach. He seems to do everything size matters size always matters. Always there. He talks, and people talk about it for a minute. And then you move on the sign is always looming there for the reverts very, very big, and I haven't seen a quantified, but there has to be a dollar figure that you somebody could extrapolate the math on in regards to what's changed since twenty sixteen now tourism in Chicago's mayor Emanuel would Abby, tell ya up for left through the Ruth and businesses are here. So all right. But let me ask the uncomfortable local question. Kim. What why is this an impossible issue? The young the basically the youth gun violence in Chicago man. Why tractable possible issue? Well. I mean I'm not. Because you have a problem that requires generations of effort to solve and you have a political system that doesn't work out. Although our political system has kept the same people for generations. The system itself doesn't really work on a generational time line. It works on every couple of years timeline. I mean that's Olsen. Really? I think the reason it was frustrating. Cochran is at every mayor, I've talked to former mayor they all will tell you. Yeah. Boy, the original sin was how we handle public housing. We'll then fix the original sin. Yeah. I don't think that's the thing. We are surrounded by states with very liberal gun laws guns, pour into the state from Indiana places gangs on the near west side, refunding block for block have access to guns to control their one block to block Cochran wise every other city had more success LA Washington, New York Philadelphia because only Baltimore hasn't. I mean, why if every other had a little more success dealing with their gang problem than Chicago courts, the courts, the courts at turning out gun offenders, in a way here that I don't think you see in the rest of the country. Somebody comes in with a gun offense back on the street. The next day, demoralizing to the police who around in these guys up, I think inroads are being made, but you know, as I've said many times on the show, you got the answer to fix this. Raise your hand, nobody's willing to listen and are going to be very complicated and you. You need to plan and you need to be committed to strategy and all of those things are not things that happen. It seems like every innovative idea and how to deal with this gang stuff just hasn't worked here. Even if it's worked in LA, or worked in New York like what? Well, I would say mapping some of the violence doing that. You know, when, when you see the mapping of the violence, and then you're able to isolate where do you need foot patrol? Where do you just need? Some police presence police presence hasn't work, or I guess, in this case police doesn't want to be there. Police there's, there's been a trust issue in the neighborhoods for a long time. And the police are doing a decent job at trying to rebuild that trust the no snitch policy is bigger than it probably is anywhere. But it's not going to change overnight. And as far as mapping goes, they do know where the violence as gangs or shooting each other because there's not an outcry. Is that it sadly, sure I grew up in Miami. When all the drug cartels, we had a high murder rate. But nobody I we knew they were killing each other. Yeah. It was not. And so there was this weird. Calm people say, oh, my God. You live in the number one murder capital whirling. We don't see it because it was not. And I've always felt that way about Chicago. Nobody sees it all the time out. Is it? Out in one little area, one neighborhood downtown. Chicago has been doing very well for many years. You know there's a lot going on downtown. There's a lot going on in the surrounding neighborhoods. It's really once you get out of that tone, where you have the problems and people, a lot of your decision makers, do not experience that on a regular basis or at all. You can actually exist here without ever experiencing any of that, if you want, well Costa, or silos. All right. We're having a good conversation here when a pause for second. We back after a quick break. You're listening to the Chuck. Todd cast from meet the press. We are back. My guests are Kim Geiger. From the Chicago Tribune, Steve, this episode is brought to you by Cox. With TV from Cox. You can find all your favorites, all in one place, the YouTube, you Bet El what about that? Netflix thing Netflix, too. And although superhero movies, contour has all the latest titles on demand. Oh my grandkids love that being green guy, I prefer the one with the hammer myself. Okay. I think we're done here now. Get all your favorite apps shows and movies, right? On contoured TV from Cox Cochran from WGN, let me ask a larger question, because it does feel like the cities are more open to it than the suburbs, or rural socialism. The S word how much how much of a negative is it in the city of Chicago? I don't think we've gotten there yet, you know, I think that's a that's an election day situation or primary day situation. I think socialism by title as a mistake. It's not you can't you can't parse new socialism versus old socialism with somebody who's forty five or fifty or older. They just your socialist social. So you think it's even democratic socialism is Bernie Sanders. Trying to sell it or AFC trying to sell it is still people here. People here are still here in the word and Bernie, fascinates me. I mean, I think history is going to look back Bernie, as you kidding me. The crazy oncological really the kids came out for the crazy. He's a guy also he's seriously for a while, but he's the guy who at thanksgiving tells you what a disappointment yard of your parents, and they didn't have the guts to tell you what, amazes me that a bencher like that has made such inroads. But with twenty two people in the field you start taking Houston words like socialism, you're lessening your chances. And again, it's not about the policies just about the lay. Able. His lawyer Lightfoot dabbling at all, and socialism. Yeah. Oh, I think it's a little early to know what she's gonna do. Hyde Park crowd. Right. They sort of your version of limousine liberals. They open to this, or are they more of the net in annot, the new form of capitalism, but let's not let's not break. The let's not go down this socialism road. Transactional, like a day-to-day basis more than anything else. I don't think people are looking big picture. It goes back to that your machine until you break your machine, you guys aren't having ideological fights. Are you right now? It's about are you inside or outside to agree. You're not having left, right arguments. You're having machine, you're having inside outside arguments. Right. I think for local politics. But I think when it comes to twenty twenty presidentially. Yeah. Again, you know the candidate matters. And I think that you will see what amounts to a massive turnout compared to recent years, because people have had their fed up. Tell me about B. Well, because if you look at the mayor's race, there were like fourteen minutes there in the turn out was really bad. It was pretty low and Philly system where you come up for the primary and people think, well done now, right? Okay. But still, even for the I mean, the run off it was like a historic election and thirty five percent came out for that. So I don't know. There. And in Chicago, Mariam curbing, do tell me about Pritzker. How's he doing? You got a lot done doing a lot of things. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, you're both the same answer. I say this because I heard I heard a story that he had all these big ideas and Madigan cinema Nonni says, you'll I'll be here long after you're here. So you're gonna have to my priorities come. I, I believe that happened to the Republican his Republican predecessor as well, right? No, no, no. He does it ever governor democrat or Republican. He's got copies. A note card. And it's like all the people who he's outlasted any always sends it down when the governor took, but all these priorities. So as Pritzker housi- playing his mannequin politics. Well, I think in this case, their priorities were aligned, okay. They had spent several years with a Republican governor fighting with him over sort of the basics of just like budgeting. That went real. Well, yeah, but it was a real. It was a real show of force for the Democrats. And I think at this point they were very much ready to get some things done and show how powerful they remain about the Trump new cycle, right? Because you woke up in Chicago was a last Monday at the end of session and suddenly over the weekend weed was legalized gambling was legalized. There was gonna also going to be a casino somewhere in the city limits. We had an infrastructure Bill. We had a budget and yet had that now on as long as I'm alive and I'm alive a long time. No, he spent a long time. Yeah. And they only did it a few days late to. Yeah. It's crazy. So this is just a reminder, what unified party control can do. I think so. Yeah, I think more. So. I think Pritzker is got a possibility. Do some good things. But having said that what do you follow that list with we got one hundred billion dollar. Plus pension problem. Right. How do you not start talking about that? Right. They did all the big things that don't that don't touch on that problem. There's this, graduated income tax thing that's going to go on the ballot. So that starts to maybe a dress them of the financial problems with the really hard stuff, the property taxes, the pensions, you buy the idea that, that L noise tech structures driving people out of the state. Yes. And no, Illinois has the highest tax burden in the country. But that if you look at the reasons why it's because things are shifted strangely compared to other states. Other belt big states state, relies very heavily on property taxes, and so always had a higher property tax. Yes, it used to be something Easter, take your paying what? Right now, of course Arlington county in our version of it in Virginia. Yeah. Know you guys have an Arlington county catching up real fast to your lakes. It's pretty intense here. So, you know, if you're going to solve the tax problem that might help with the with the yearly perception when people get their tax Bill on there and it's expensive to live here, and, you know, central Illinois from Bloomington down. Yeah. All those little towns, have really taken a beating because there's only so much property tax. You can extract. So there's really the tax base. Is there shrunk even worse? Right. So chicago's. Okay. It's tough outside, and they haven't figured how to share that property. Tax money away guns are coming in here. People over the, the Stateline Indiana and, you know, to Michigan, even help certainly too, because it's cheaper. Yeah. So you do people that way. Pritzker gonna have. It's Pritzker the democratic governor that can actually become a national figure or not. The money that's for sure. I could see that happening. It's possible to see what he does. That's possible. He's has his persona change to you since you've seen him go from, basically being Siahaan to this. The weird thing is he has made himself almost inaccessible he's well-spoken. He's done almost no interviews. Yeah, his people don't even return the phone call, and he's a guy that can handle himself can answer questions. So he's got larger designs, he certainly not working on the image yet. Because he he didn't even take a victory lap after last weekend. He just kept himself, right? Any is there any incited its to what? I don't it is strange though. I don't know. Everybody's playing prevent defense. Now, you know, the Democrats don't want to impeach Pritzker while they might say something even though he's not that kinda guy and, you know, it's, it's, it's not the way to win. Before ago. How long you been doing radio in Chicago? Twenty five years. What's changed? The need for radio. This is the best radio market the country forever. Always has. Yeah, yeah, the need for radio is changed in obviously distribution model is change. Fortunately WGN is a legacy. And there's always a huge audience WGN like to tell you, it's me. They've been around a while, but it's tougher for for the other stations. I mean, this is greatest disc jockeys in the dry at all. It was rocking. The Big Joe was also because your footprint was large Chicago footprint got into Wisconsin in an Iowa and Indiana. So it was it was a regional footprint. Not us. Not just once. Right. And we have that still, but I think Ray Mears what's happened to radio around the country if unless you're switching unless Alexa is home radio. Yeah. And you're using your phone to scream in the car. You're not getting much radio so came when you what do you sense, is the, the towns because you're transplant, you're not. A native Chicagoan. What do you sense is the media diet in Chicago? Well, it depends on who who you're talking about the different person who's in the loop here business Persian. You're reading the Wall Street Journal in Crain's person on the south side, sometimes and sometimes still southside, paper still has yet following putting it out every day, so people that actively interested in the burbs, particularly the northern suburbs. Reading tribune. I mean yeah. This the sort of long standing stereotypes, I think are still still there, but the footprint is definitely shrunk in the emissions are definitely smaller than they were even like when I got here, which was six, seven years. Yeah. There's part of me that hates the idea that the Chicago Tribune, the Chicago Tribune, and is the world's greatest newspaper or doesn't have that ego. And, and it bugs me I wanted to have that ego. We're the emission Chicago Washington place. I know. I know because it should and could New York Times and what's happened. There's no reason. The LA times initia- kogo Tribune, wouldn't have the same sort of effort, and it no reason why there isn't a local billionaire, that would want to do it the right way. Oh, yeah. There was a bump in a road ownership wise that guy went away. Sure. But I can still those waters those waters calm. I don't know that, that gets fixed right away to you. No, not for Chicago. I mean, I think in L A, I think that they're on their new owner. Yeah. To see what's going to happen. It's very unfortunate concern, his local news as being treated like an art museum where if you have somebody that cares, you're going to have a great art museum in your community. And if you have somebody who doesn't care, you're not going to, oh, I have to go to the next town for really good art museum and, and got to know. And I really I don't know if that's a, that's a. I heard I think it was dean, but cat who's editor in chief of near time say, basically, local news can only survive based on the number of billionaires living that marketing care that how could that go wrong. I know. But that's a like, okay. I mean that's not a business model anymore. And yet, people still want local whatever it all come down to the scourge of the words, fake news, because people only go to the echo chamber. They go to what they agree with, and they don't look any farther when I was a kid when you guys were kids, and you were forced to look at things that you agree with which also meant the people making that also knew that there ought had a wide aperture so you had to account for the entire audience, right? In that sense. Let me do this. You guys are. What do you wish what do you wish that we did better and cable and in national news? What makes your job harder because of us and what makes your job easier because of be the media critic? Yeah. What do I wish you did better? I mean like selfishly be selfish about it. Covered more than one story. Twenty four hours only time to cover story, basically. Yeah. I mean, the implication is just a little, it's a little intense and overwhelming. I think it makes it hard to even want to pay attention or try to connect the dots between the national, and the local, the national feels, so sort of almost distant extreme. You don't you don't ever go, my God? I should do the local follow to this story this announcement today. That's interesting. There's no appetite for that right now is her. I think no. Yeah. I, I would say, stop using terms at aren't blunt when it comes to lies, I would say when Trump allies, call them lies. They're not misstatements. They're not factual errors. He's lying. And I think people need to hear that again. And again and again, and your sports guy sports used to be the number one topic that topic now is politics. So, so the more you talking about it. The better I'm gonna give TS here to do to, to my Todd cast listeners, we have a new poll coming out in the next week your piece of it on Sundays broadcast. And you're gonna see another piece of a couple of days later, because we did some news in some sort of larger issues about democracy in general. I, we'll give you one poet's funny, bring this up about the issue of politics. So in nineteen ninety we asked a question, basically say, how much time do you spend thinking about how important is politics in your life or time, you it's something like that? If I had the wording of the question front of me and basically, you know. You know quite a bit somewhat, you know. So basically it was fifty fifty fifty percent of the country responded going. Yeah. I spent a lot of time thinking about it. All right. And some form another fifty didn't want to know what that ratio is. What are we at nearly thirty years later? That ratio is now eighty seven thirteen about that eighty seven percent of folks said that politics is something that they feel as if is a bigger much. It's, it's some pow part of the diet part of their concern. It's that everybody and I think the problem is that people now look at other issues, only now through the prism of politics rather than through the prism of their own personal interest. It's interesting. Yeah, it is. An I do worry, we've politicized everything I was listening to one of my favorite sports podcast. And they're talking about the sprinter in Texas who happen to be white who's gonna break all these records and the first thing they're talking about is oh my God. This is going to become a politicized racially. And I'm like, we not intimidate these stories. We don't not every not everyone in America will view this through the lens of politics. But now I got this poll result. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe eighty three percent of America will I think it depends on your definition of politics. You mean like political correctness? Yeah, yes, I. Larger. Is going to be politicized political, not necessarily like I cared annot what Biden's going to say Perot, he gets islands. No. But it's more about how quickly something gets turned into a race discussion. How quickly a gender divide how quickly to income inequality how quickly it's right. How quickly it becomes an us versus them. Whether you're the us or then, you know, we're all them's just depends on who's the us in the moment who's the net give it one more too early on twenty twenty the Indonesian county twenty two early. There's plenty to talk about. Well, we shouldn't we shouldn't have a debate in June. Don't tell my boss. No. I mean, listen, I saw someone to look like he was going to be prime center that night. It's I'm, I'm. I both defend and detest the long process. I defend the long process in that the person that comes out of it, the person we eventually, like present on the whole has gone through a ringer, which should make it that they have an ability to crisis, manage it what they thought were crises during their campaign will feel like nothing and then they'll realize okay, and so you could argue it actually prepares. There's nothing like it in its David Axelrod at a great. It's an MRI for the sole. Right. Right. You just learn everything. Obviously, Trump's may be rethink a lot of these a lot of things ideas, a lot of these norms about whether it's a long process. Good is it to media heavy? There's all sorts of I still think the more hurdles you put somebody through the better you'll the better we find out about these folks. Get there. It is a better test. The problem is everybody's got the answer key to this version of the test, and we need probably need to change the test still be rigorous but change the test, maybe television, five minute television interviews, aren't the test, and why not we're reinventing everything else. Yeah, I look, I say this is somebody who's both defending the system and wanting to disrupt it from the inside, you know, I want us to both. I think June isn't too soon. But I also believe let me make sure I hope that the debate is relevant to people in the moment, not something that feels far away either, so weird. Cross politics is an on demand yet. You know, the way television is. Yeah. Eventually they'll be able to binge watch this. Let me ask you go. Here's the thing that I think that is missing is that we're focused on all of these candidates. Now we've got a primary where focus on. We've got him muehler investigation. We're focused on. Where's the part where you actually do the taking stock of the actual administration in the actual record and you kinda get to marinate in that? They don't marinate. Marinate there, here's my frustration. You know, I'll, I'll these two dozen people. We marinate more before the become president than when they are. That is a fact. We marinate more John Hickenlooper record as governor now than we did, then poor Colorado and Scott in preparation for the guy running for a second Stor. So I take your point. And I that part of the system, I don't know. But I could tell you, this peop- digits getting as much of a vet as anybody as he's ever gotten in his life. So if he does become president or the nominee. That's a good thing that he's gone through this vetting process. So I. I'm I sort of I hear this criticism and I'd like to make my own version of that channel, but, you know, we give it to weeks, your exactly the problem is if, if C span and PBS had it all figured out, which is what everybody was claimed that they have they'd be the leading indicators of all of this, and they're not right. Right. You gotta have market for it. Liberal talk radio, Steve Cochran and I say this, I don't put you think you're, you're, you're, you're in talk radio in a way that you try to be I never been more middle than mine. I don't I don't find you. You're not an ideologue, I you're a you're just sort of an American, I and it comes through, and there's only a handful of you like it. Yeah. Forget liberal talkradio how come they're not more of that. Because it hasn't been able to sustain a market the same way liberal talk radio hasn't been able to sustain a market. She said, there's only a few of this has radio has changed. There's only a few people who feel the way, I feel in my mantras been the far right in the far left aren't the solution. They're the problem. It's like you inch merconish in your own way. And I don't mean it. But it is. I don't underst-. It's almost as if talk radio is exclusively. The home of the conservative echo chamber, it will very much. So because it's all about being right? It's never about being doing the right thing. And that's the same problem going congress in my opinion as well. But I give you another reason women don't listen tuck radio as much as men do. That's true. Busy doing other things. She's a mother Chuck for crying out loud. Seriously? There's to me, it's not an accident that talk radio gave us sort of this new version of the Republican party, which is based heavily in men. It's a very you know, it's in this whatever you wanna call it, it, it's all connected. Rush Limbaugh is connected to FOX's rise, which is connected to Trump's rise, which is connected to this democratic divide on gender. Particularly among non you the biggest divide in America's non college, educated, white men in college, educated, white women. There is no bigger divide. Right. Not black and white not Brown and white, not right, there is. I just gave you the two biggest of. In american. They will have to be white. I don't think Chris Limbaugh thought he was inventing professional wrestling, though. And that's what it's turned into. So I think we're so. Most is trying to make a buck and he's done fine. Yes. I think he's gonna be okay Kim Geiger. Steve Cochran leisure. Thanks for giving us a little Chicago taste. No, you bet. I got nothing gets him. Bring any of the Chicago. Good boy, Elliott pizza. You think we hear them see with host right to? You've been listening to the Chuck Todd cast from meet the press. If you enjoy the show, you can download it for free on apple podcasts about a fire. Whether you get your. Today's episode was produced by Matt Rivera and Justice green, John reece's are ticket producer Steven ties the head of podcast news in Barath. It's the senior producer for podcasts. Our theme music is composed by spoke media. I'm Chuck Todd. You can catch meet the press daily in NBC every day at five PM eastern four PM, Chicago or the big show every Sunday morning. Thanks for listening until we have. Hi, it's Lawrence. O'donnell if you love MSNBC where your heart on your sleeve, you can gear up with t shirts. Hoodies hats and more from the last word and all of your favorite MSNBC shows you can shop now at MSNBC store dot com.

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