How Britain Accidentally-On-Purpose Colonized The World


My new pod is dedicated to all things fraud. Each week I sit down with some of my favorite comedians talk the hottest hoodwinked greatest Chris and Dube's double crosses comedians like Nicole. What's up y'all I'm lacey mostly and I love fraud hoodwink hoaxes swindles and double crosses which is why I want to tell you about my new show scam guided the subject more or less boils down to why there isn't a British empire anymore one more time that is why there isn't a British empire anymore that's also patchwork map of the entire world and within a few decades of that point they were suddenly not running much of it at all in a in a actively is a senior lecturer in British imperial history at Queen Mary University of London and the two of them have enormous expertise on this enormous subject person so I took the opportunity to bring him onto this episode because I feel like it's exciting to talk to British people in Britain isn't that Nice it is and I talked to further exciting people from there owning territory sense and that's weird that's a strange phenomenon in history and so I wanted to learn all about it and and build an episode out of us finding out especially on this episode of the Podcast one of Dr Charlotte Lydia Riley She's a lecturer in twentieth century British history at the University of Southampton the other is Dr Kim Wagner because broadly here's another way that I think being alive is more interesting than people think it is we live in a world where about one hundred years ago the the website I don't think they do you should get on that use scores basis beautiful templates and twenty four seven customer support to have a beautiful always functioning website? That's just right for you. I was recently in London for the London podcast festival last week we released the live episode that we did it that fast and this is sort of a bonus episode here in the US what's going on with that because in my American education it didn't really come up as soon as the thirteen colonies broke away from Britain they were aside character for him it's all about adding thirty seven more colonies you know what I mean they're they're states but you get it and so in addition Adam weirs I am joined by two phenomenal experts service to set up your personal site or the site for your company or your writing or your photography or your De role playing character does your druid and idea that we interrogate a little bit because there is sort of a British empire still but to the broader point of it at something that we could spend a hundred hours talking about and adamantly sham pyre ruled a quarter of it a both in terms of territory and population the British empire covered about a quarter of the world in a very sort of odd for the overall process of sending me to the UK. Because I don't just take one show when I go to a whole new country come on there's such exciting people to talk to everywhere one of the folks in the UK I decided to talk to is Adam weirs he's a cracks writer editor columnist and more you've definitely seen his byline on the site if you read it and I'd never gotten to meet him in hey there welcome to another episode of the cracks podcast the podcast about why being alive is more interesting than people think it is my name is Alex Schmidt and I'm the head of podcasting here at cracks he's experts were very very kind to do just one with me you know 'cause I know they know more than this and they shared so much of what they know in digging into this doc hello technologically savvy person yes I'm talking to you and since you're so technologically savvy ghetto website already get on with squarespace they are the best sir subject this episode will also be food note heavy especially there will be a very basic simple rundown of all of the different places that were part of the British Empire do you do it had to squarespace dot com slash cracked for a free trial and when you're ready to launch the offer code cracked to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain. I'm not very familiar with that in really broad strokes they controlled an enormous portion of the continent of Africa a an enormous portion of South Asia also what's now so this episode is about how those places became their own independent countries kind of all at once in a way that's very different from how the United States became an independent country long before them Malaysian Singapore the city of Hong Kong and certain other cities and territories in East Asia and also many islands in the Caribbean Belize. I guess I'm just listening it will also draw a bit on the psychological impact of a country doing that process and how it may relate to certain current events in British news today and Oh thank our anyway Australia New Zealand Canada and a few more things that I've failed dimension so it was an enormous empire at that height about one hundred years ago today thank you all so much for diving into what is one of the most enormous topics in think that's enough setup for it so please back or stand at attention outside Buckingham Palace because again I I addressed you last week and you keep it up this week you're just standing like one of those palace guards and somehow you have headphones in there I really I really commend you because that probably makes that job less boring good job and either way here's this episode of the craft podcast history and time and everything and it is the British empire and how it went away to Kinda give us some grounding in in the initial stuff to look at from what I've read about it and when I get the sense of it hit its biggest size in terms of territory and people and everything else in the nineteen tens and then by the nineteen seventies initiating the clam almost an ownersh meaty champ and I am also also enthused about being new places I think of it as an opportunity I think it's really neat and with Cracks Zone Atom weirs and Dr Charlotte Lydia Riley and Dr Kim Wagner I'll be back after we wrap up talk to them history British slavery is such actually after the American Revolution British slavery in the car being continues a very high rate and a very kind of motorists and deadly right the American revolution as sort of a weird outlier where it's a British colony that broke away long before the nineteen hundreds is right on it seems like all of the rest of them yeah I think it's as large as territory in nineteen twenty seven which is the point at which Britain is given control of the German colonies that they lost in the festival does it's east it just just not in North America especially in a pre easy communication era this was an incredibly difficult empire to run it must have been a lot of just just you know six or so decades later almost all of it was independent and and I know there's a lot of detail in there but is generally accurate is generally right empire means a greater was almost kind of psychological way to handle we just lost this enormous colony how do we feel good now independence sometime in the twentieth century there it is it was really quite important in the Senate signals a turn to the East is after notes given to people on boats was the entire system yes you can see the expansion in India for instance it's supposedly guided from London but soon it's been more than a year during which time politics of change New Territories have been conquered some have been lost it's not it's not an email you on so within fifty quite substantial political decisions they can do that because of the distance from London that's all fascinating and and then in general with knowing about this this period there's all sorts of ramifications in terms of European to European rivalries that sort of percolate all over the world the betsy should still obviously even after the five minutes receiving it we're talking about big bureaucracies as well wow at least in Africa as as in particular Britain's kind of expanding its colonial controls because of distance by the time that an order has been sent to India and a reply has been sent back perhaps clarification and then an auto reply the you about Africa the role of the man on the spots at which which obviously is a man always becomes very important because the man on on this boat has to be able to make decisions as to be also the American colonies said the British really become involved greater degree in India for instance so there is the loss of part of the empire it was more assigned to something else so with regards to India was the book about Gandhi we did not cover it's really any kind of broad sense we did not cover it all it was when he was a discussion of you know as much as this is supposed to be coming from the Metropolitan Power has to be delegated to people who you know a chosen in their role as either explorers will try discipline art curious spot Adam as someone who went through I assume regular school in England that's not what it's called but you know what I mean when I was in high school or twenty years ago on the spot and he can either you know succumb to the tropics illness in the heat only can you know in a sense Foch's own destiny there's a lot of they reach that kind of high point actually taking someone else's empire ask like movement of peak he can patriotism as far as I can tell until the end of this electric nightmare seven and on the end of slavery in the British Carbon Eighteen thirties so it still has that you know this still Britain is still very active to its west is mercenary actions going on we can see that the expansion in India in particular where Governor General's they almost single-handedly decide to make ed this extremely long and elaborate process system that will happen as far as like the average British person if if that is such a thing what do people learn about it I'm in particular about how you teach it so you can actually teach the empire which is you could say some positive thing that's level of freedom but it also I learned that was that was all we knew was and it was even like I think one of the earliest jokes on cracked dot com was Australia's dangerous animals and former prisoners that's the just because they are expected to be able to make decisions on behalf of the British crown in the British government how we know the heroes of empire is sort of the discretionary powers of man really just the hits does Jay Kim Britain that children at school study hitting on the Henry's Cheetahs Hitler crumbling an genocides because people they get each other's throats so he's a very celebratory yeah our countries are so alike so trade plus the French the French aided the Americans during the revolution and so the British turn to India to fight the French there as well Thoraya level courses on decolonization for example that some students will take in schools it conversations national conversations are hard still about there we had a big fight about it thing by ending the slave trade and anything said against the empire is diminishing the Piat wow yeah American revolution annual thirteen you in college as the ones that you take after they break away in Britain still has a very substantial Caribbean presence and obviously all will will to unwind it was talking about Australia was usually in relation to like sending prisoners transportation because those are the highlights in how everything emanated from Britain and people did go out and an end civilized world and then look what happened once they left which is as you have all these failed states is the correct comes been updated so is it is a subject that gets covered but it's more of an elective teachers to discuss it's not mandatory what parts of the curriculum and then as you expect the Tories came out and just kind of lay into there's a good line here at well you know you've been so proud of the empire for so long and we abolish slavery and all that but you know you forgetting the slavery that went before you polished right which is the day were at that point need the largest of slaves like those three occur in slave trade walls we did schools in my school children Britain would study this slave trade in some capacity but often they study the how Britain ended the slave trade so how wonderful humanity take narratives about how terrible empire wasn't Oldish is offline we need to we should be celebrating Britain's pass that often is the way that the kind of conversation goes dry has got better is not actually that that useful of that when we talk about teaching children about imperialism the national conversation always becomes you know this to be lefty teaches very unpaid out kind of collective shame comes up quite a lot so the idea I should be ashamed of the employee should we apologize for the empire which is not really it's not the right question historically you're actually criticizing people's sense of self identity or the tally is perceived so it's a very complex I think in measurement love language around if you have apologizing empire as well which comes up law an answer when people start talking about the need to teach children schoolchildren move at empire is questionable the whole bit and that was all we knew that was actual curriculum yeah oh no okay it's gone that's here in Houston professor at the University of his Co. Anglia which looks at the National Curriculum textbooks and talk to a means that some kids come out of school quite a particular takes on the old conventional narrative about how how Great Britain was arena charity Pooper to most of ending the trade what how wonderful William Wilberforce was for his campaigning against slavery and they don't necessarily interrogate very much how it was Britain was able to end this I've tried of identity and history we will food note the article you picked out of what that MP and it's like near world stuff for America like there's there's you've history teachers and it was overwhelmingly but was being told was not biased towards empire it wasn't these all the it does seem like in both countries it somehow everyone's present day identity is that in the past people in our country did something amazing we feel but even then and that's where unfortunately historical facts they get left by the roadside or thrown under the bus because it's not about facts about how people feel and so when you say rapidly scaled down before the world wars and in that sort of peak imperial period you mentioned Kim why were they bothering to colonize all these places what were as we look at the British empire going back to that as sort of basic idea that I think I think most Americans especially just don't know that it grew to this enormous size and then so this from an MP who responded series and he said it is incredible the Jeremy Corbyn aspires to be the leader of the country and apparently so ashamed of Yukon guy with a different flag pin somewhere in Washington DC right now as saying exactly the same things about what we did to the West and so on it's amazing and you're so right cam that I think it is a union jack so wherever British trade companies they operated alongside Dutch French Portuguese train companies all over the world they also it's factually wrong that lots or gets towards the students in the quantity state does is necessarily bad as study cannot years ago from he studied in British history classes I could speak for me I studied the Victorians chewed as we'll on world will too I know they're all different I know that's an enormous question but when Britain was going out in colonizing all these different corners of the world and we'll have a footnoted list of how mass at the end of last year because Jeremy Corbyn Li la party came out and said when he becomes into power which might be now on the way decidedly immediately thinking about being motivated by British power disease or by capture this might be thinking much more about spreading Christianity which is obviously kind of overlaid on very you know have been amount of territory was abd lower what were they hoping to get out of it in the first place first of all when we talk about the British Empire in singular that's a slight misnomer because he different things at different points of time I if we look at sort of the early beginnings it's a primarily trade but traders is never separate acute towards colonial peoples that you know that that kind of indigenous religions and cultures are naturally considered to be inferior to Britain and this is committeee's washout spent about two mos on the the empire about ten minutes and even if it is elected it's not chief also the the rationale for for establishing control in various parts of the world overlapping intersecting interests and then of course when you have other European so also economic profit but that is separate from national interests if you want these for instance in their flag they had rented Britain it was both of government on the official military and then also these private companies like the east India company if he talked about the sort of the most defacto by guys it was a fairly balanced look what's what's went on so the current curriculum was pretty balanced. Yeah that's what they found those that's good and so then and trading companies French for instance than during the eighteenth century you're GONNA compete against them not just financially in terms of trade but also politically so civilize Asian and civilization is inextricably connected to Christianity and so individuals involved in colonization might be missionaries who were going out who are not themselves the idea kind of uplifting these civilising these countries around the world but you can't pull them apart it it's not just that civilization is used as a kind of fig leaf to hide Triton's and employer almost incidentally in it if it means you can avoid taking responsibility and you can avoid picturing Britain as an a country which intentionally went up to build an empire traditional kind of historiographer of British colonialism which was that the regime was built in a fit of absence of mind is historian John seely along assay tests and it's about Britain being in top Dogan and controlling as much as possible there is a narrative at home and some people on the ground doing this narrative this about listen things it's the it's all kind of intimate and it's interesting that it's at least three or four things all at once because then it seems like it gives people a rationale the colonize it's actually quite helpful in explaining Britain's with some colonies Niassa land for example which is Modern Day Malawi which is a small relatively poor every Africa doesn't a company's not by the government by companies but on Kim says you also have kind of government interests that an an overlaying all of this is we were doing this trading we were doing this this civilization ours was too liberal Western attributes meant that we were working in the wilderness way and we kind of a master very he said that this was almost accidental the Britain set out to trade with all of these countries and he just felt abandoned up with an empire that covered a fifth World Service with eight hundred million people in it kind of a pattern a kind of pretend so if the idea is also something to do with civilization so whilst it clearly basically it's capitalism and it's about it the country that changed in the last twenty minutes but he came out and said that the government will make the discussion slave in colonials in black history mandatory it kind of happens because of other decisions that are going on we've talked about a couple of regions so far but with India in particular and when I say Andy I mean the nations on the coast and they have to get permission from local rulers in order to operate the way they do as late as eighteen thirties agents nine why would he becomes a crown colony as when did they first take land in a in a decided fashion early sixteen hundreds so centuries although I do think that there is a degree of truth in it in the sense there was no master plan steph nobody who sat down and said Okay we're GONNA establishment it's a complex dynamic which kind of spurs on this gradual expansion is interesting because on one hand the basic fact touch lead the law of the Empire is colonized India that also included Pakistan and Bangladesh and and then nearby Burma that is so interesting that as you both mentioned earlier pre- IT companies steered a lot of conversation and and in my in my googling and my reading it seems like India was first taken over by the east India Company and not by the governor the majority of the Prophet of these companies is derived from land revenue rather than trade so like like a like property taxes or something place has in one there's the trade the owners they're spreading the obviously superior religion because it's superior because look at this empire we're doing as they used to be really the company operates supposedly as a vassal of the Mughal emperor at these to the extent of the of the coinage right up to the nineteenth century although by that time that was the narrative for the British because it didn't cast them as being these kind of re patience bloodthirsty oppressive that was that tax tax revenue. Yeah wow these kind of things so you can see by then if it's no longer vowed spices in silken trade between Europe and the Far East a colony Islam ick empire that controlled a large part of the South Asian subcontinent and and more or less of matches the outline of what becomes British indie can enough itself be profitable to run and also one thing just in case people don't know what was the mogul empire the mobile imply was was the yeah and that empire is in decline throughout the eighteenth century which one of the reasons that the British are able to sort of fill that power vacuum that for saying oh well you know the natives wanted us to come all over we defeated the French groups we got some more territory here and there but I've got India country in the trunk Oh boy thank I thank hunting when you're hungry because she higher the way so it does have sort of half as aspect to the way that it develops over time but that then becomes a convenient excuse particular strategic importance not particular number materials and it in a region Britain is operating in those kinds of trade interests and things but it's not like Britain went out we're GONNA call him is this place you've been for very long time they are simply operating side by side with other European trading companies and they have snakes traits meant like just the east India company traded and traded and suddenly they took it over while this one way of putting it but yeah it was the eastern U. Company territory right up to eighteen oh buyer Paula Tompkins lauren lap is Jamie lavdas am honey checkout scam gotta subscribe now on Stitcher Apple podcasts all wherever you scam you're listening it's sort of us not stepped out of the House one day and just come out they are running everything they've assumed complete control but again it's almost as conceit that oh we we we just a trading company but at the time from eighteen eighteen thirty three I think the last mogul emperor is still a coin still being minted with the mogul emperor on the one side in these company on the side interest you never have a colonial power assumed control without substantial collaboration or assistance from local allies okay and the British races so they they weren't just so brilliant at trading and the military that they overthrew country also the country was sort of on a decline when they showed up and much of ritual of a reasserting colonial authority and the reason why I wrote a book about it because an Irish officer who was present at the execution took up the head allowed missionaries to operate up till eighteen thirteen but offset period of time with the rise of eventually you have a whole variety of reasons but the main thing is that the eastern your company has so far pursued a non-interference policy because they were interested in profit and trade so they have an instead of just being contended with collecting taxes they're actually trying to regulate how people they marriage very very basic thing I'm very private thing within countries and after independence when it really creates division but you governing a huge empire with very small number of people you have to be collaborating with people on the ground all of history but but that's such a juxtaposition of we will bring our versions of religion and marital practices to this country to to lift it up and then as soon as there's many many Indian soldiers were incorporated into the overall British military and even helped run at and Kim in particular you've got an amazing story that I believed an influx of of of sort of proselytizing sentiments but also attempt to actually civilized India the colonial state penetrates further into Indian society the French Empire is a little bit more directly controlled from France and is has has a slightly higher level of kind of control from the centre written rules through bolt immense brutality just really really awful is a really interesting dynamic that's one that's shared amongst all western imperial powers including America ONA's mutiny in Britain but the Indian uprising and for the reasons we've just discussed British rule completely collapses the moment that the local allies turn against him turn it into a Scotland took it back home as a trophy and I am today the Custodian of the skull trying to repatriate to India I know this has happened with empires across indirect rule they ruth ruth through collaboration relates they participate in policies they favor particular ethnic groups perhaps in areas which is huge problems over British rule in India's sort of hang in the balance within the British saying they suppressed the uprising in take quite brutal revenge an Olympic also suppression it's actually the the savagery in inverted commerce of the natives that forces civilized people to act like savages and they quite explicit in Houston meltdown to a book as well but about Alum Bagh yeah he was one of the engine soldiers in eastern company service rebelled in eighteen fifty seven June the big what's the was one of the thousands of of Indian soldiers were captured and he was executed by being tied to a Canon blown to pieces sort of fall my guy in that terminology so the breezy using engine type of execution blowing people from cannon co supposedly that's the only language that the natives understand is that the civilizing power is it provides a sort of complete moral justification for anything so when you do see the necessity full full full jason kind of coming in and becoming very very messy entangled isis of colonial rule and with the particular that is very interesting that that this is a nice benevolent endeavor and yet it is predicated on racialist violence and exploitation which somehow has class obviously being very important in Britain nineteenth and twentieth century means that the treatment of the Australian conflicts being sent to Australia for punishment that that's actually very so entire way of life is being transformed by British rule so Beijing fifty seven the engine soldiers say they rise against the British and for a few months during eighteen fifty seven Aniko Sifi slow resistance as well so that that both collaborating with kind of having to push against resistance from the ground is what is not very smooth and bringing them civilization so we have at the very heart of wisdom peerless we have the steep conundrum which is that it's predicated on the notion migrate to Australia. This enables Australia to maintain a very racist immigration policy on enables Australia to maintain a very brutal also it includes Australia Canada New Zealand it seems like those are government very differently in general I mean they are on in the sense that that that the white people early Canada and South Africa Australia and New Zealand are indeed treated very generally treated very very kind of humanity by the government of course within that there's a lot of Canadian fascination families in the kind of separated so that means brutality and all of those places is just doesn't look the same maybe as writing even a lot of the same places it's interesting because when Britain's going through decolonization the narrative is often that Britain's close diplomatic relationship with America means it has to embrace decolonization because the American is is mostly racial because it's because the British empire includes places like India in many parts of Africa where where there are there are all kinds of uprisings and wars and fights over at and it now that makes complete sense as I think about these Australian things in particular it sounds like maybe it's the most American style of all the places they are because pom Poms Australians cool breads to the ten pound poems game was an assisted passage scheme to Australia you buy cheap cheap tickets and go to Australia and the British government and you have increasing programs at the ten pound poems game which throughout the Twentieth Century encourages people to Emigrate Australia. I'm sorry ten pounds it's history but we aren't taught that in the US that like Oh our buddies Australia extremely similar trump quite recently right praised deal stadion raising our he reprised I've incredibly America has such retaliatory toward dishes populations separating children from their parents in the culture and then also explicitly racist immigration policies just by which children are taken from Australian indigenous populations which in in Canada as well with the residential schools schemes for example that's nation children are taken from many of the conflict so central Australia were being enough what we would now consider very minor crimes very kind of Casa clippings for stealing hosting food you could be sent Australia awesome missing dimension of of how imperialism is told and I am American historians also waking up to this fact now that America did happen in pint details in many ways is one reason that the British Empire has in very modern times slowed down or been less of a thing just because America kind of took that mantle up and imperilled policies and still has had absolutely we which is very explicitly based on inspired by the British Empire aw anti-imperial at American Anti imperialist over the quote unquote special relationship between Britain and America support for today's show comes from squarespace because they want to support beautiful templates created by world-class designers and the ability to customize just about anything with a few clicks suddenly boom it's the perfect druid T- fling website also your website showcase your work may be and I mentioned this before but maybe you have a DVD character who needs a website how will people know that you are a druid who is also policy towards its indigenous population what she should very badly who do not they don't get the right to write universal until nineteen sixties so on this the things like the price they want to build you a website so you're set up online everybody wins and everybody wins no matter what you're trying to do with that site maybe you're looking to start a new business maybe you're looking at and you might be sent for quite short for five years or something but of course you can't come back that's the first thing I take that the second thing is because all of these places have indigenous populations who treated extremely briefly but what distinguishes sandwiches from civilized people is set we've not savage right but then they force us to become savage as we are expanding explained away his also as they're in an overall process throughout the history and sound pyre where the particularly violent governance of places is eighteenth link which is a very interesting race for your class to be I think why don't you try that and then why don't you build them a website because here's how it would go you would get into squarespace right they would get I mean I had my childhood in America and we are very big on peer pressure it is a thing we do it sounds right around offer code also with the overall teaching of this the State Department was How can you be try as like this? The Americans a furious and they want Britain to maintain the empire because they say strategically important com slash cracked free free trial and when ready to launch us the offer code cracked to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain that squarespace dot com slash cracked we'll be optimized for mobile right out of the box so when people look on their phones right in the middle of the campaign they're like really you have a website for this character I'll see and then they will see and it'll look great they won't even have to leave the table to check also buying domains is very simple on squarespace I'm not going to give a sample domain for this druid deeply website because I don't want somebody to take get before you do think of the thing you want to call it and then buy it with squarespace and you'll have a website that's easy for people to find just by talking about it squarespace also American pirate spending they are anxious about newly independent states turning to America Alanthea's Nicole for example and not being kind of imperial stuff how much is American history taught in British schools in an embrace culture because I feel like in American schools that I was in we learned about Britain for earthy revolution US breaking away there was one footnote where he burned down the White House and then in World War Two Britain comes back in the picture that's about all we got from Egypt all the way to South Africa and also several counties in West Africa it seems like a lot of that African colonization was competitive with other European powers in there's people who are not druid T- fleeing such as designers lawyers artists gamers even restaurants and Jim's to turn great ideas into something real so it works for everybody had to squarespace sufficiently connected to Britain and America actually at many points asked Britain to maintain empire in nineteen sixty seven and at the end in nineteen sixty s when Britain decided to withdraw from east of Suez and I decided to withdraw it's this final bit of decolonization really decided to withdraw motives and military bases east of I suppose Singapore which was Britain's big that was the big thing we're going to leave and when George Brown the British Foreign Secretary guys to America say right this is what we're going to be doing the response participate European powers and you're paying colonial powers being Britain France Belgian the Netherlands little coach little is that you briefly immigration system when he was talking about children in cages say the parallels can continue I think since we're talking about how the British impetus toward American very is is a a Jesus paper something you might study at fifteen sixteen but that's that's amazing and so there's very little American history other than that civil civil rights here maybe I don't really think we did America Silverados yeah we like civil rights on will we like civil rights curriculum because it enables us to Persson is actually India Britain needs initially they need South African ports because sailing to India requests stopping off in South Africa in order to review too even beyond the way the rest of conversation was yeah so the quite unfortunate terminology for the initial measures Africa's the scramble for Africa in Eighteen Ninety five stories about how racist the American saw helps us to avoid thinking about decolonization or race relations in Britain because we can tell the story about civil rights in America Selma Tomorrow A to Africa because there was such an enormous part of the British Empire will have Adam Map footnoted but they had basically a strip of land there's a conference in Berlin whether European powers got together and people from thinking that the at this conference Seselj Drool over the map of Africa divided up they didn't do that they set up rules for colonization of Africa almost gone to war by accidentally invading each other colonies in Africa not realizing that wandering into each other's territory and say after eighteen hundred five suddenly the the West African ponies is weapons picking up slaves to the tight to the Caribbean where they are selling slaves filling up that ships with rum and the British empire it was like a special highlight and then of course the west African colonies are initially this this is Weber too slave trading happenings now maybe seek medical attention to pick up food to try before you can get India and then after the Suez Canal is built through Egypt dots much quicker you can go through the and as far as Britain is concerned very much between Britain France Belgium take the Belgian Congo which is enormous stretch of London in the center of seem to be trusted by mentioning it empire fell from Fatty obviously does Britain retreats from these places American pound moves into them and Britain is often quite resistant to homeless because anxious about and so they said if you're going to take a colony you need to display your flag and you need to really take it and this was because the a couple of incidences where Britain and Portugal and Belgium had accidentally just to the bull but also partly explains the apartheid system because this kind of contesting between the white British and white ball populations leads slave trading colonies which then become British colonies so that sort of explains this sort of regional patchwork of structure South Africa's complicated because the the Dutch settlers Africa the apartheid system and so that that has roots with the British that's not just I guess I knew it was also a Dutch comedy yeah yeah that's interesting it seems like a lot Ed how responsible to springfield for all that Britain believes itself to be the mother of parliaments Oh yeah card I suppose cut Britain's trying to build this Cape Town to Cairo thing they won't spend a railway they won't have Railway Cape Town to Cairo they wanted physical corridor wow Africa is important out of the entire world has a lot of its formatting and government structures to just the British either they directly set it up and it's still there or people indirectly imitated kind of animals do between these two groups and not in nineteen forty eight when boo population kind of take control of the political ruling of South Africa. It's at that point the British Carney rules which has been very kind of oppressive and racist all kind of formalized by the by the bull population intimate apartheid system the one thing we know in America about I of Egypt including sample which is the big canal there's the points and were everything everything east of that which which was the kind of it was what was sort of left it with mostly military Gotcha I'm bringing that back to Britain so that you have that kind of tranquil trade that so there's west African columnist Nigeria Gold Coast which when independent becomes GonNa doesn't often imperial borders because Buddha's between countries on on straight lines that geographic they go along rivers or long mountains and thanks straight lines are two countries sitting down announcing agreement which cuts across contested areas often imperial the British Messing in Africa are frightened of small states civil war yeah we'll farm policies cold war doesn't make nineteen forty five to nineteen hundred nine nine hundred ninety one maybe I want to loop aways back that is very good thing lovely that we have given the world through I mean it's still Buddhism maps which are imperial voters are straight straight lines on maps dependent on their it's partitioned into primarily Hindu and primarily Muslim areas and enormous amounts of people are displaced and there's a lot of trouble yeah the the establishment of the in India because ingest so fast but it's supposedly secular that border line was drawn up in a matter of weeks by British officials would never been to India before in South Africa the Bulls for for a long time until the one thousand nine hundred and into the twentieth century this to kind of rival colonial South Africa the British a big big states and said that unwilling to decolonize into small groups with losses mold independence movements they want big countries are not often causes love really have to claim the slums you have to go in there and you have to you have to put in administration you have to flag up you have to say why this is Alice instead of scramble for Africa becomes his fight phenomenon dislocation and movement of people something like twelve million people move back and forth between Pakistan twelve million hundreds of them the large space at all being one country or one thing being that lots of people who maybe don't get along or in the same thing because I as I understand it when British India becomes advanced placement. US history class and the test for it run by the National College Board happened before the end of the school year so then we watch some movies to fill out the rest of the semester. I'm so that is often used to create a narrative Webuye Dante was peaceful the independence movement was peaceful this must mean that decolonization was uh-huh and and obviously in India the economic section process the way that they do with border is incredibly it has a huge legacy as we the important the main problem of thousands killed displaced with that Indian history in particular I only I think the only time it came up in school for me was that I took small states are likely to be difficult to govern and that they might join Kotal context in particular that they might be Kinda pissed around with the easily and kind of went over by the Russians so they don't wants most fission of India resent his rise to Pakistan we she said avowedly Islamic state whereas India's supposedly a secular state there's still a hodge amount of Muslims and we watched Gandhi the banking's movie and I don't know I don't know if it comes up in school here sometimes the lessons of fish people cheese land from Gandhi often the Say You watch a straight and settlers after the initial process of convicts being sent that you know you have many more people are encouraged by that at that price has is being somehow peaceful being somehow connected to that it's one of the sort of conventional conservative narratives sort of the retreat from empire which was sensitivity left an orderly fashion that's simply not true British believe that empire to have been more humane than the other European empires fronts in Algeria they look at Belgium in the Congo. You'll often read narratives of decolonization including for example in the material that the Home Office provides citizenship tasks Portuguese bogged down in these brutal decolonisation whereas British who had close ties to the local population deep cultural understanding but you have to learn some British history which will talk about in Britain handing over power to the imperial subject the language at the time was very much they come of age so basically with some maps in a red pen today historians will described as the genocide what happens because the British basically pull out and you have a huge avoidance suppression of a Melon Pendants Movement the Mau Mau in Kenya from nineteen forty eight to nineteen sixty the British of violently suppressing the right thing you know about decolonization is is the Indian leader of decolonization believed in peaceful protest one it doesn't talk to her it'll being very violently suppressed by the British but also acknowledged period long periods of search for example the Malayan Insert what's known in Britain's insurgency which is over a decade of British the very righteous and understandable anger on behalf of Indian people it doesn't talk about the multiplicity of different groups of independence and of course the empire with the different grades but it will say interesting as a historian the same people now about Gandhi is nonviolent resistance I the thing about Gandhi Gandhi was peaceful Sammy Ross Yeah Independence Movement in Kenya with like huge numbers of casualties on some terrible human rights abuses people about them when we look at them as something different and we don't think about decolonisation but even though they have been at the same time they're quite different but even just the notion of colonial reforms in nineteen nineteen they have these these countries have become mature enough for self government and so they will have this handed it them and now often a lot of people believe in it we got to the point and we kind of mutually decided handsomely companies back which is now sort of white people people look at the Commonwealth today and they get very frustrated sometimes some of these countries all critical Brinson Tarini Through the Suez Canal income out essentially in the Indian Ocean occur but they need to control the spices notice control access to India in India being this thing the jewel in the crown mild reforms were considered as some kind of a massive loss for British prestige so much so much of what the empires about is it's almost a continuation of the imperial project itself like we have now civilized humans so we can leave you to it and there's a sense of friendship it is more democratic told me about it right so they believe the Ampato been more humane the British Empire to have been extracted less exploitative they look at uh-huh those interior walls or was it economization so this this whole really this narrative that person just sort of one day woke up and decided imperialism was now wrong is prestige we cannot be perceived to be weak and we literally have first petitions saying if we give in an island than they are going to demand things you know how can how can these countries these how ungrateful right we gave You Christianity and McHugh independence. That's a few from kind of his waves of decolonization very much because these racial hierarchies partly about Britain on its own popularity in Britain fundamentally is more democratic than friends right Chris sensually better empire than front can say you have I think India is very set process Indian independence by separate to African independence yes the first one did Britain with retreat an I see that completely undermines the role of independence movements often decades of sustained resistance to collision and often you know with their leaders being biggest one hockey please island yes yeah and also the Egyptian revolution of Nineteen nineteen so I mean nine hundred nineteen across point that's where we usually talk about the beginning of gene is by some considered as as some kind of surrender they're bringing people in one thousand nine hundred talking about colonial rule slipping through the fingers in India they famously ruled India using Indian soldiers in British service but that goes for all the colonies fairly yeah that's Potato Lieber Tha that shelly India with who given in Egypt they do that in Ireland so it is it is domino failures absolute Indian independence which Salaam leaving India because we're going to be driven out anyway and it was going to be another twenty years before Indian independence happened so so even very British African colonies become independent not munching fifty seven Goa coast becomes Garner nineteen fifty seven there is a Gulf coast independence movement which fights hard for this only very small she's a very long time coming and which comes after period of kind of promises on the British government reforms and then you have Indian independence at the end of the second mobile not to put too much input the first light to British population in Ghana the west African colonies for the British have very small kind of skeleton administrative kind of services there east Africa was different because East Africa I'm particularly am Rhodesia in Kenya another large white population settler populations Kenya is stitcher apple podcasts I guess southern Southern Rhodesia in nineteen sixty five the white population declared independence say issue Udi the unilateral declaration of independence eighteen sixty five until nineteen seventy-nine at which point in Nineteen seventy-nine the Thatcher government the new government has a negotiated Lancaster House agreement I state it seems like all of these happen all sorts of different ways and maybe the one commonality is that it's sloppy it's not it's either not thought through or they declared independence themselves from Britain apartment not the crown so they they keep the Queen as the head of state but they declared independence from Britain from episode opens really fast or or it's just not organized in a way that's very gradually thoughtful sending messy and there's a violence to it even if remember Rhodesia's named after a British Person Cecil Rhodes yeah he was a a rampant cleanliness and very unpleasant mom but the white people who were British to strength in Australia get to determine their informed policy that decolonisation I can't find America America declares independence then in West Africa because you have to do something with these people who are themselves really really resisting Nisa People White People in Kenya do number two decolonize and so it comes complicate dependence from the empire themselves and become this kind of rogue state very very racist essentially fascist state because they believe it will work out the best for them attended second mobile they get to choose and that that's what independence means in that context interesting but that's power being given to white settlers to do what they want with that rated un-islamic resistance Later and I'm the one that's particularly interesting is as of media which is present is and Bob Way even if this is decisions and start she's still this does violence to this right that the decisions and statutes in Nineteen thirty one which allow South Africa Australian they assume says democracy there will be massively outnumbered by black writers and so to avoid that happening independence and run essentially a very violent New Zealand candidate become dominions have power they're informed policy which is that that's what that independence is they have power over foreign policy in the festival will they have to go to war to support silence from Britain in the war of independence independence did they decolonize then like with the native block seventy they treat terribly and send the children back to England catch boarding school analysis large settler population which means independence decolonisation much more difficult American population consider that country have been decolonized like it it's interesting it's very messy and complicated did South Africa decolonize in nine hundred sixty one when they big historical work I read is a David McCullough's book about Harry Truman and a learned about just the existence of Clement Atlee from that and it turns the other people ran Britain in this time besides the one cool guy who's in the darkest hour movie and everything I figured Churchill was pretty pro keeping hey I'm I'm overstating we just learned Churchill is cool that's all we know there's a picture of him with a Tommy Gun that comes up it's very exciting the latest like in the US when we learn about like a British leadership and the in the middle of the twentieth century we only know about Winston Churchill say you learn about leadership in the twentieth century becomes the First Real Labor Party Prime Minister and ashes in period for is nine as the second colonial occupation of Africa cannot be decolonized the white settlers Kombi forced to go hi we'll give that property up and so there was this brutal and bloody civil war in Southeast Asia called the second Chimurenga for collections especially connecting the British empire with the American Empire like the what the the state of this colony or not is very very fuzzy all the colonial diaspora people living in Britain did lots of me at work with such movement for colonial freedom to loss of independence work with independence movements Clement Atlee in nineteen forty five always hunted either to Robert Mugabe's Likud party on a PF the most extreme example of British white settlers in the colony resisting independence where they literally declared imported as peanuts to grow peanuts from Jose's spectacularly unsuccessful but Jimmy Carter would never make this mistake so three colony we can I don't know if that's true or not but were there other people in leadership who didn't feel that way yeah I mean Churchill famously says I did not become permanent I did not become prime minister to see the decision love anti-imperialist we it's the conservatives who really kind of colluded an empire or maybe the Liberals Look of Chamberlain these people who who were imperialist where they're like we cannot just be one of these EU countries were so different yeah we have such go okay inflated self-important truly one of the king's empire I'm a historian of the diaper party of the left it would be very tempting to tell you that the left has always been anti-colonial and has wished it up to imperialism relations spoke nations when we talk about decolonization in I guess we could say yet Ghana nineteen fifty seven the greater state leaves and it becomes an independent country the fact that get the ringleader they run themselves they have foreign policy it went digital strategy calm less what's the moment when destroyed decolonize when tation with both parties I mean I a brexit has been on my mind as with many people so like oh Churchill and Johnson same party Johnson kicked the suicide attempting often the left in Britain has been very guilty of looking back over there in history and saying with a party of racial equality with party I try to resist it and I always definitely been politicians on the left to have been anti imperial people at Brockway who did lots of work with which is famous because it is so successful is just a farming idea yeah they tried to grow peanuts ended up producing fewer peanuts than I had bat imperial past and that imperial mindset is driving a lot of this exit situation today I don't know if that's fair to say or not yeah I think that would be bad negotiates or like when you have a bill that kind of stops near the brexit which would ruin the country that Tolkien as dots not talking you know we auntie imperial and in nineteen sixty the prime minister he gives the wind of change speech in South Africa. Saint Decolonization is coming to Africa is Harold Macmillan who is a conservative that because they are not committed to independence they do not know initiative crease independent democratic rule. They don't want because they are in the minority that quite large white population percents colony conservatives are super for Braxton Labor is somewhat for Brexit in some ways kind of it's a it's a complicated thing but I only bring us all up because it seems like they were they launched a series of surveys and colonial development initiatives the most famous of which is the East African groundnut scheme which is during peanuts in Tanganyika as our it's just it's just a bill it's a surrender bill and the only disagrees with Brexit is a traitor boy yes so it's not outweigh Churchill's descendants that's weird I believe at Lian Corbin Saint Party Labor there and then also I get the sense that both of those parties are themselves Republican left the Commonwealth or did they call nine hundred ninety four when Nelson Mandela having been out prison for years Elliott became the first likely to South Africa after the festival then a former colonies will come to aid we can be great again I think make make make Britain again act is actually what brexit off the world we still democracy in but we're also the underdog who single handedly defeated Hitler and who are now threatened by colonization by the okay does it tie in at all to when we were talking a little bit earlier about written feels like it just did empire and did government and democracy better than other European countries is sort of a similar the Swiss or something Swedes Germans re bites I mean this is tied into second world friendly relationships they using war metaphors alert the narrative is that the house is somehow colonial power for pretend this has been very distaste does the trying to get away from the shackles the triumph become this swashbuckler in empire they were back in the nineteenth century they wanted to be free it's not true the best can be summarized as make great again Great Britain great again on all the people talk about this Lee before Britain Brittany design independence price says Britain will garage was talking about Britain's celebrating Independence Day on the twenty third of gene which was the day of referendum not Steph is what this was a landmark speech indicating that that colonies would start to be independent Britain would not allow white settlers to to visit through the sort of crisis of identity that is expressed through brexit which is we should we all rightful place manifest destiny is not Frenchies Hon and so so we're both an underdog and supremely powerful and I think that that's actually speaks exactly yeah I don't mean to pick brandon leg America barely wants to be part of just a world where like we're not just a country of any kind of guy you can see it's another language it's the idea that you're losing sovereignty to your opinion and this is somehow particularly shameful because it wasn't Britain wasn't defeated through Britain like willingly handed over these powers Oh yeah this is a weird almost schizophrenic conception of of Britain poised on the brink of brexit which is we used to rule is to talk about brexit it's nuts you don't see Boris Johnson and Theresa May and all the other associated toys talking about Oh we're going to go with us. After the fall of France before America entered the wool before Russia such and Britain Britain stood alone against Nazi Jammie alignment with five hundred million can you know there's been a lot of anxiety around sovereignty and your opinion is about loss of sovereignty which kind of in a bites hard if you are a country that believes you are the mother of parliament if migrants crossing in eastern European border and it was notable that the picture was of Brown skin people moving across the space and Brexit is often framed around we want to return back to this moment what was that ise decomposition happened a number two became part of

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