Taking you inside a contentious courtroom after a huge week in the federal corruption trial (10.12)
The. They're scary. Parachute Friday, October twelve, two thousand eighteen welcome back to the island college basketball podcast. Matt norlander is here with. I'm gonna talk to him and just a second. But first let me tell you about seatgeek buy tickets. Online can be complicated, but it doesn't have to be not when you use seek, and that's because seek what they do is they searched multiple ticket sites for you. That will, you know you're getting the best prices, you get the best to get the best value. You can find what you want. And then like two clicks later you're buying tickets could not be easier. For instance, let's say you try to go in l. c. s. l. c. s. you wanna see dodgers brewers, onc- Red Sox. Astros just go open up that gap. Did it earlier today, type in what you're looking for? Your options are going to pop up, pick your seats by 'em matter of seconds. It really is simple. Simple simple. So next time you need tickets to anything. Basketball, baseball, football concerts, anything go to seek. Geek and don't forget use the promo code college BB that's college BB you can get twenty bucks off your first seek purchase. So mixture use pro college PB next time you buy tickets via the CD gap or at seatgeek dot com. That seatgeek millions of tickets in one place. So I'm packing Memphis. I just landed after spending yesterday and beautiful Rosemont Illinois, big ten media day norlander is home in Connecticut, but he spent the past three days in lower Manhattan taking the trials, Jim gadoe, Merle code and Christian dock. And so let's just dive straight in. You've been in the courtroom. What's the scene in the courtroom? What's the biggest headline from New York City this week? Peirce. Good to be back with you and glad you're back safe and sound at home. Looking forward to seeing you in a few days down in Florida, the courtroom. I'm glad you bring it up with the courtroom because I do feel like there's so much to get to. I mean, I've got, I've got pages of notes here. Pears we could. We will not. But I, I literally could go four hour. On this on the past three days alone, I will say that within the courtroom dynamic and what you know we're watching play out versus what you're seeing tweets in reading and stories. A lot of it is correlating. But one thing in particular that I don't think is just yet and I'm gonna write a column on some of this that I that we're gonna publish. I think on Monday morning Trump get set to resume. So the prosecution is is right now it's bringing it's witnesses into the courtroom that Brian, Bonin, senior who will talk about he's a prosecution witnesses. Compliance directors are prosecution witnesses and TJ gas Nola is a prosecution witness who liked bow and senior cut a deal with the government in an effort not to be put into jail. Bowen cannot be prosecuted. In this case, he has that deal. Gas Knowle's is not exactly the same. So with all of that, as these prosecution witnesses are talking on the stand when they're speaking to the prosecution, the lawyers that are representing the federal government. In this case. The questions that are coming out from afar. It's it's almost a bit ironic. 'cause we're hearing a lot of the dirt. We're hearing a lot of the bad stuff that's going on, but that stuff needs to be established to build the prosecution and the government's case. And so when those people are on the standing facing direct examination, there isn't any sort of fight about giving up all the misty's that have been done. And yet when they are faced by the defense and their attorneys, obviously it's more stop and go. They're not as. They're the words, don't come out quite as fluidly because in part because they don't know what kind of questions are going to be entered, but also because they are on the side of the prosecution. And so with that, you've got. Some interesting moments from the defense to a lot of the a lot of the people that been called to the stand. But you also have a judge here, and this is what is not really seeped through yet. You've got a judge who is, you know, seeing all sorts of crazy crazy cases, judge Kaplan, he's seventy three years old. He is overseeing, you know, just million tens of millions hundreds of millions of dollars worth of fraud and insider trading and all sorts of stuff. So it isn't Shingo to try and get inside his head and wonder what he thinks about this case. And and while it stands on its own grounds, like he is handled just things of so much greater consequence. But the honorary Lewis Kaplan who sits at the at the front of the court. Here he is admonished. The defense a lot of lot. And while from afar it's, I'm with you parish. In that this case, just it seems like it's on flimsy ground. We've never seen anything like this before. And you know it's on the government to to prove that code ghetto in dockings. In this specific trial were guilty a federal crimes and defrauding the universities. The defense has not called it's witnesses yet and in advance of that you have judge Kaplan sustaining. I would venture ninety percent of the objections made by the prosecution meaning that when the prosecution objects do question the judge as you're correct, that question should not be using, it will not go and transcript won't be used on the record and the witnesses don't even get a chance to respond. And and so what you have here is a defense trying its best to not just paint a picture of the people that the prosecution's called and how they might not be reliable, how the testimony they're giving is not actually affectively helping the government's case. But you have the prosecution objecting to a lot of questions based on into w rules players that could have been paid players that TJ gas Nola co. That were fourteen fifteen sixteen years old that he gave money to those kind of questions are painting a certain scenario situation where the plight of teenagers and college athletes not getting paid. That's what the defense is trying to do. The judge is not allowing it. So from there the question becomes, what is the jury thinking about all this right now? Because if you are a juror and who knows what these people think, I will remind listeners that the jury was selected in part based on their general. I don't give a crap about college athletics. I don't follow it. I couldn't tell you, you know if Duke and and UCLA or in the same conference, I don't know all that kind of stuff. These are people that are not up to snuff on recruiting works, let alone college basketball on the whole. And so if you're a juror like that when you are watching the body language of the prosecutors and how the judges responding to the defense and how the defense lawyers are offering, sometimes meandering questions, things that are taking twenty to twenty five minutes to get to with Bank statements, and they're not really going anywhere if. If you were to judge basically only on that right now, you would say the prosecution is undeniably winning at this point. Now, the defense will have its chance to bring up it's witnesses and also add the witnesses for the defense are not going to be as a lengthy as the prosecution's. Basically the prosecution is hoping to wrap up by Tuesday and the defense thinks that it will be done by next Thursday. So it doesn't have a lot to go with their and from their closing arguments will obviously remain paramount. So before we get into some of the of what the of what guests Nolan bow and senior and perhaps some of the compliance directors, even though they weren't as exciting, but did offer some stuff there. I kind of wanted to lay that out free pair. I, there's not really much you respond to because it's from it's within the courtroom, but I did want to put forth that to you because it is interesting to sit in that courtroom for. I mean, God knows how many hours we do get some breaks here and there, and it's just it's just the defense punching up going up hill consistently. And it doesn't feel like the scoreboard is in their favor. This point. So when you say you feel like the prosecution's winning, do you mean that you think we're headed toward a guilty verdict? I will not say that yet for a couple reasons one because I don't know again how the jurors are taking all this information in which ways they may or may not be leading. But I do think we have to keep in mind that although this case has never been tried, we've not had a case like this before major college athletics where people are Houston, defrauding universities, and all this got to remember the rate in which prosecution successfully winds cases at this level is insanely high. So if you wanna dig your heels in on either side of the argument, I think you've got still a good shot right now at this case. And there is a possibility that when we get to next week in the defense calls, it's witnesses, and it's able to ask its line of questioning, presumably without much objection from the prosecution, and then the tables get turn and the prosecution's got to go after the defense's witnesses who we don't know yet. I don't know who's going to be called, perhaps the judge will be. Similar in tone and message? The prosecution that he's been to with the defense. I don't see that necessarily being the case he is considered a conservative judge as is. So I think that's the one part of this case that we haven't seen disgust yet. That is a very heavy element in the courtroom and it could prove why next week could be pivotal. They also, you know, one of the, the idioms, I guess, of of, you know, major major court cases and just going to trial as jurors have tendency to make their decisions based on how they feel about the attorneys, not necessarily the people on trial or the witnesses or the judges or anything. How how the attorneys handle themselves ask the questions, the questions they ask, how the address the jury that can sometimes have a very influential affect on juries as a whole. And at this point with what I saw on the court this week, I would, I would say that the prosecution is coming out looking better than the defense. One thing. Would point out because somebody pointed out to me, you mentioned that the the feds have conviction rate. That's that's. That's astronomically high. I know you didn't use that word, but it it is. It's above ninety percent. That's what you always hear. If the the feds have a conviction rate above ninety percent, somebody emailed me and said that is technically true, but somewhat misleading because that includes all of the cases where people just they don't even go to try. Okay, win. When you actually go to trial, it's about a coin. Flip situation is what I was told from guilty night guilty perspective. So the feds, if they charge you, they're going to get a conviction against you at a rate above ninety percent because most people realize I'm, I'm eft, there's nothing I can do. We just gotta reach a deal. I can't go to try get no chance of winning. But for the people in rural coach got and Christian doctrines would would fall into this category. For the people who actually say, you know what? We can beat this. We're going to go to trial. Then it becomes like a coin flip situation of whether you were found ultimately found guilty or not guilty. That's at least what I was I was, I was told, I do think that's that's worth pointing out. Ultimately, I, it seems the defense is just going to try to argue these aren't crimes, and whether that will resonate with the jury or not. How could we know it does resonate with me, but I'm somebody who cover college athletics for twenty years. To the people in the jury are. I was talking to somebody the other day. I was like, you have to understand based on what I've read about the the jurors like they might not know who John Calipari. Correct. Like if you like, like if you said, hey. What who do you think's going to be good in college basketball this year, they'd be like, no, I don't know. Hey, who thinks better recruiter might she's just your John Kerry. Who are those people again, where do they coach like these people come to this case from a from a place where it is completely opposite where we come from, like we have an understanding of college basketball in the in the characters involved, and they just don't. And so that that's what makes it so difficult to try to predict how this is resonating with them. But I know how it resonates with me. I. I don't pretend to be illegal mind, but the argument that these are insead violations not broken laws that resonates with me as far as what happens with gadoe code Christian ins guilty, not guilty. Well, we'll see. And one of the points I've made consistently as that. They're the ones on trial. So they matter in that way. But ultimately, what matters to people who would listen to college basketball podcast is like, what happens to the schools involved who gets roped into this? And from that perspective, I would imagine though there's nobody connected to Kansas on trial here and nobody can act to Arizona on trial here. It's not been a good week for Kansas and AirAsia. Would you agree with that? I would agree with that. It has not been a good week for those schools hasn't been a good week for NC state. When you've got a government witness admitting to paying the families and or guardians of five college athletes, one of whom is still active. That is Silvio Susa at Kansas. It's not a good look at something that you have to overcome from public relations standpoint. And frankly, it's something that they none of those schools ever fully will overcome overall. So that is, I think that is a pretty big takeaway from this week parish within the within the details of all that we can. We can get into that and what these witnesses have said. But I think that the damage done under oath under testimony, some of which has already been the evidence of which has already been corroborated others evidence which still needs to be. I do think ultimately, you will see sanctions put on these programs, but as a reminder to listeners, those sanctions will not come into later in my opinion because this trial on its own is its own entity, but. The story. The case also connects the other two trials. And I do not think you'll have a situation which the incidentally I even allowed to do this by the federal government, but to would even want to do this because it wants to see what comes out in the truck person trial. And then the other three assistance whose trial will begin in mid April of twenty nineteen. So you're right. It hasn't been a good week overall. Do you like? I don't really know where to go here. I mean, I can. I can stop here for second on on Kansas and Arizona because they're Phaetons and I haven't even I really tweeted about it, but they're Phaetons. Both schools are like interpreting what's happening in this courtroom way differently than the rest of the country. Like, you know, at Kansas, they're saying, see, TJ guess Nola says, Bill self didn't know, and Kurtis Townsend didn't know and nobody knew, but you've also got TJ saying, you know, in a report I told Bill self were like, we're. Here to help, you know, like. Perhaps he just meant like with, you know, encouragement in in whatever, but like we're here to help coming from TJ gas Nola. Means a certain thing, I think. And then at Zona they're like, okay, the eight and got some money, but it came from a Dita's and we're Nike school and and standing up saying, see, they're still nothing that shows we did anything wrong. And I know there's still nothing that technically in undeniably shows that you did anything wrong, but best I can tell every single person who's caught on a wiretap is saying airs Ona's buying any anybody, hey, Nazeer little zonal pay Brian Bill Ayers, Ono pay. Andrea eight, and they end up with with with with the Andrea Eytan. And by the way, I know that the only money connected eight at this point, it's fifteen thousand dollars that TJ Nola gave lar- nail his buddy, which is the funniest thing in the world to me like just learn just getting fifteen thousand dollars from TJ when de'andre junior in high school. But I mean, so what are we assuming that Adidas gave deandre eight and circle fifteen grin? And then he went to a non school for free. I mean, maybe maybe, but like you wouldn't believe it about anybody else. If if if that's what you believe, if you're Zona fan, you wouldn't believe it if the same story was about UCLA just sort of flies in the face of common sense that he'd get fifteen thousand dollars from Adidas and then go somewhere other than at Adidas school for zero like that. I don't know. I didn't know it would be approve anything but like that doesn't really make sense. And the idea that you know you could be getting Billy Preston, dodge charger, TJ gas Knowle's involved in paying same thing. Desouza involved like really be completely in the dark. Again, it's possible nobody will be able to prove this stuff what somebody did and did not know, but it sure looks certain way. I guess that's my point, certainly. And there was a moment on the stand with guests Nola where he was asked about Nike and Under Armour and the nature of their business as it was similar to what it was doing guests Nola was doing and. I don't have the question in my notes that was asked to him, but the nature of the question was basically getting at, you know, at at certain times, was your opinion, in your opinion of your colleagues in the and what's what's been referred to as the black ops group, which was a handful of this employees that were in the know to varying degrees of paying players in their families. All right. You know, was it your understanding that this was happening at Nike under armor, and this created a competitive environment to recruit players and Gasol obviously replied, yes to that. So it stands to reason that any of the players that have been paid and and have been said under oath to have been paid or their families have. If they wound up another spots, you know, you'd have to be. I'm being generous with my language. You'd have to be completely naive to think. Stop here. I'll ask you the question. Does it make any sense to you? Because here's what we know matter-of-fact has Nola gate the Andre eight and circle of friends specifically Laura now who I love fifteen grand because it make any sense the Andrea eight and then went to a non Adidas school for free, make any not stand to reason perish. It just doesn't make sense. It does not. It doesn't. Okay. And I, I wouldn't be surprised. You and I will be in Florida. So just disclosure for the listeners, I will not be at the trial Monday through Wednesday of next week. Thursday, we'll see goes, but it wouldn't surprise me if if more about eight and came up next week, I think that there is the possibility for that. All right. You wanna get into the gas Nola stuff here. I mean, Boeing seniors got some good stuff. There's even stuff that I didn't tweet about that. I didn't get into my stories. One of which is code and pairs. I'm buried in my notes here. It's code and I think doc ins on a wiretap call and they're discussing the fact that they don't know who one of these guys is in this deal. And the guy is the undercover agent and code is talking about how uncomfortable he is. Man wears this quote, I gotta find it. He's basically saying, I don't know who this guy is. I can't find anything about him on the internet and that you know he's he's dropping curse words in that FM scares me basically. So at a certain point, they. Yeah. Got it right here. Hold on. Let me just read this part here. This is a call in July twenty four, two thousand seventeen between Christian doctrines and moral code. Again, both defendants in this case, they have a meeting on the twenty eighth and twenty ninth upcoming with the undercover officer who obviously they don't know to be the undercover officer. And this is co talking to dock insists as you and I need to protect ourselves. You and I need to get some background info on this guy. And the guy's name is Jeff code. We need to do some real digging. I just don't wanna be in no BS. You need to use extra caution. And then cogos I look up this guy's name and I can't find nothing on them. That s is really, really concerning to me. And then coach starts getting to how he knows some some private investigators that he can get to look into and remember this July twenty fourth. So we are still two months out from the case breaking. This is in the middle of the line. Recruiting period or near the end of it, I should say, and it's it's just damaged or thing. But it didn't really fit into the stories. I was writing code also says I can pay somebody who's got access to like the how the federal government can look people up. I don't. I don't need to see. Effing pictures of him at home or anything, but we can look into this guy. So you already had the defendants in this case and they're being wiretapped unbeknownst to their knowledge at this point. Code at the very least starts to suspect something is up. And the interesting thing about code dock ins guests Nola gadoe whose name is like at the top of the ledger on this trial, but who to this point through a lot of wiretap phone calls and text messages gadoe does not display outright panic or suspicion at things he's not like happily naive and just like he's not doing that. But you get a lot of like gas Nola pissed off that dockings is talking about the one hundred thousand dollar payment to try and follow me here listeners. 'cause I know there's a lot of characters to James, Brad. Augustine. If that name rings a bell, he wasn't AAU coach in Florida who coached Nasiri little will James Brad, Augustine gets wind from Christian doctrines that Brian Bowen's family was paid one hundred thousand dollars to go to Louisville. And now James read, Augustine is trying to build up his own AU program and. In doing that trying to get rich off of selling the seer little potentially to AirAsia or Miami. So James, Brad, Augustine approaches TJ gas Nola at Adidas nations in two thousand seventeen they I believe it's the first time they've ever met. Okay. So he goes up to gas Nolan for those who don't know gas Nola. This is a guy who looks the part. He's at a central casting. We've seen him at these summer events every year since we've been doing this essentially and he's he's like six, four to sixty with the goatee like you. You know, he, he looks the part and just to picture this coach going up to say, listen, man, I know the deal that was set up with Bowen. I think we might. You might be able to get some sort of same accommodation here for little at cetera, et cetera, gas Knowle's thrown because he then goes and talks on a wiretap call and says, this guy knew the deal with Bowen. He knew the number and I sure as held it and tell them any accuses Dawkins correctly. So of running his mouth on this. And so gas Nola starts to get panicked because when you're doing this, obviously, you need to keep the circle of SRI tight and it's caught on Texan. Wiretaps gas Nola saying the only people that know about this me and you referring to dockets, ghetto and code. He also says Kenny Jonsson, but dockings refutes that Kenny Jonsson knows. So that is actually a dangling threat. We don't know really the truth there, whether or not I don't even know what I believe whether he did or did not know guessing testifies that he didn't that Patino didn't know the defenses trying to establish that Patino does. No. But that was an unresolved. Read from Thursday, but eventually, if you step back and look at this, what happens near the final eight weeks of this process is you've got guys running different cons on each other, but not necessarily maliciously you have people wanting to be involved in the payment to players in their families because ultimately down the road, there's a huge stake in that for them if they stay with Adidas sign with certain agents and and I don't know if you want to describe it as kickbacks coming eventually, but obviously there are paid off. So what you had was this black ops group assigned different schools and would because they were assigned to different schools eventually be associated with different kinds of players who would wind up going to one school or the other. But then you've got dockings whose only like twenty four twenty five years old when this is all happening. So he's he's a bit of a young puppies. He's definitely kind of playing the role more than he's actually is fitting into it if that makes any sort of sense. And suddenly you've got a lot of paranoia with all of these guys and and sure enough the paranoia was warranted. -ted because of they, they would be busted. If you're asking why gas Nola is not a defendant in this trial will one. He, he, he cooperated with the government to the evidence against him was not as direct and strong initially as the evidence against the other guys in the trial, guess Knowles on a plane the day. The story breaks when the story breaks the only he testified that the people he reached out to his attorney in Rick Pitino. Now, why would he reach out to Rick Pitino? He said his mind was going crazy. He didn't know what to think. And he basically, I think he was worried that Rick was going to get caught up in this and wanted to make sure that he did not know. But at the same time, he never at least he has not testified to this. If if he if if he did this, the prosecution is not having is not asking this question to set this up. If he ever discussed the legitimacy of bones deal that was never brought up altogether, but what gas Nola and Brian Bowen senior having common is they both get approached by the feds, not on the same day, but guessing all gut. The government came to his house soon thereafter, they both lie to the FBI initially how much I don't know what details. I don't know, but they both lie about the nature of what each of them was doing that was against the rules of the various potentially against federal federal law gas Nolan bow and continued ally until basically they're pinned against the wall and they have no choice. It's like you're, they're gonna cut a deal, or you're going to trial on this in your in. You stand to spend years and years in jail. Okay. So gas Nola. He eventually cuts the deal. Hold on. He cuts his deal in. I gotta go back all the way to start at his testimony. He cuts the deal. He pleads guilty on March thirty two thousand eighteen of this year. So takes that long in between all of that by the way he is having his attorney, write a falsified letter to Kansas to try and help Billy Preston situation. Meanwhile, Preston's mother is involved in an investigation because Preston gets into a minor one car accident with what we now know is a dodge charger that was apparently registered to Preston's great grandmother, which I'm not saying wasn't the case. I'm saying that's an amazing visual that there is a minimum seventy five year old woman driving around. I believe Florida with a dodge charger, incredible. So that that whole process is getting trying to get figured out and then Kansas investigates and they say, okay, now we need to figure out if if you got paid who got money, the gas Nola lands on their radar because gas Knowle's had a long standing relationship with the Kansas coaching. Staff. Okay. And so then Preston's mother again, this is all happening. Well, before gas Nola agrees to sign up with the feds. Precedents mother who has a female companion in life goes to Gasol and says, I'm gonna tell the Kansas investigators. You and I have been intimate. We've been dating. We've been fooling around and that's gonna make the fact that you paid me ninety thousand dollars. Okay. Meanwhile, has a fancy of his own money of which has been. Taken from his account into his fiancee's account as a means to try and hide it. And that's not been brought up in trial. But frankly, you put the pieces together. The government clearly leaned on his fiancee, and that was also what what move gas to become a government witness in this because she had tens and thousands of dollars that was money unaccounted for didn't pay taxes on a legally obtained by gas Nola. That's another part of this. So anyway, that plan falls through Preston, never plays last year. We know the reason now. I mean, we knew it, but now we know it. No, it. The reason Preston ever plays is because his mother and her partner except ninety thousand dollars from gas Nola. Some of which was delivered in hotel rooms in New York City in Las Vegas. Some of which was got wired because quote, gas analysts at he got lazy, he didn't wanna make the trips in person and deliver all of this cash. Eventually the government pins him up against the wall, and and now he's, he's coopering on behalf of them and in doing so has admitted to paying the families of Denison. Junior Preston, current Kansas player, Silvio Susa, Brian Bowen senior and de'andre Aden's family friend, the money of which was supposed to be delivered to Aden's mother. So we don't have any sort of corroboration that the money wasn't factor liver to his mother, but you put the pieces together if you so please parish, I'm gonna toss it back over to you because we can spend seventy four different ways right now TJ guests Nola somebody I've known for like fifteen years because and he is like he looks the part if you were trying to stereotype here. But if you were trying to cast like the shady, grassroots, basketball guy, like he looks, he's the guy, you'd put the movie. And so it's it's sort of interesting how he's the guy who ends up in the situation. But when I was the Memphis beat writer, he was around the Memphis program a lot. You can take that, however, you want to. But he was in Memphis a whole lot because he. Was the connection between the Memphis staff Tonio Anderson who went on to play four years at the university of Memphis. He was on, you know those those great teams that went to. I, you know, the championship game, maybe I think three elite eight and four sweet sixteens championship game appearance. He led the Tigers minutes played every single year. Even though they had Sean Williams. They had Darius Washington. They had Derrick rose. They had tyreek Evans all while he was there until you Anderson led. The team in minutes played every single season. He's a very good college basketball player. And so he has quote unquote guy was TJ. So TJ was in Memphis all the time. And I think he was a high school classmate with dare Kellogg who was on the Memphis staff at the time, then went on to be head coach at UMass now is at LSU, Brooklyn. And so I, you know, my my history with TJ goes goes way back and. I'll just say, I'm not surprised that he got caught up in this kind of stuff. Because he's been the most interesting witness so far because he's talking about money, I delivered deals. I did, and though he has claimed as it relates to Kansas Bill self didn't know canes staff did. No, that's great for for Bill in Curtis towns, all those guys like if if I were to have a, I would also want TJ saying, we didn't know anything about it, but does cashable college basketball fan, believe that like do you believe that. No. And even other stuff, I'll continue here parents, but even others, they're, they're just little drips. Small things coming out in the trial like the fact that the defense asked, you know, before Bill selves hall of fame induction, is it not true that you and your fiancee. Went out to dinner with Bill self, and there was someone else in that and am my ghetto, I believe. And I believe this is the day before the induction. He says, yes, that is true. So it's just little things like that. That the defense is trying to take out of gas, no testimony. Because again, just to remind listeners like when Gasol is being questioned the prosecution, he knows the questions are coming. He self, he's quick. He's direct wins the defense, you see a little more of the imposing figure. His body language is changed. The way that he responds is not as quick. He's asking the defense to repeat questions often. Sometimes he's pausing in my opinion to wait and see if the prosecution will object. It's a fascinating dynamic that plays out continue. The other thing you said that I thought was interesting as I read this when you guys tweeted at you and Dan wets or both been in the courtroom. That on the day the scandal breaks and the indictments are made public. He calls Rick Pitino. And again, I do think it's fair to point out that still to this day, October TWA two thousand eighteen. There is still no evidence whatsoever that Rick Pitino knew anything about this. I mean, you can either believe him or not believe him that's up to you, but like the idea that he's caught on a wiretap or there's some incriminating text message, or there's somebody actually even saying Patino knew that does not exist, so so that's worth pointing out. But why are you calling Rick Pitino if Rick Pitino domino nothing about nothing. I, I will answer the question the reason why he's calling Patino. And again, these are things he sang under oath. Couplings Patino here. I'll answer the question, but I want to bring this up on Tuesday. There was a call between code and dockets. That was also played a separate call where dockings alleges Pacino's and code says he knows what he doesn't know, plausible deniability. So they get into some of that overall. And then guess Noah's been asked a couple of times about, did he let Tino did you not let them know? Because the prosecution is basically saying, you know, by him, not letting Patino and keeping this from Patino and hiding it. He he is defrauding his defrauding, the school, he's in university and get a text message was brought up where it's in my story. It's the first time I've actually bracketed thumbs up emoji. I believe in a in a piece of copy and it's gas Nola saying, listen, you know, hall of Famer. Hope you're well. Bom will help talk soon gives us sums up. And then within context of that being brought into evidence, it's gas saying, I did not tell Patino kept us from him. I didn't want to didn't want him to know because if he knew. You know, Boeing would be eligible for the program at Patino could come under attack. So there's that. That's what he's saying under under oath. He's claimed in in multiple different ways that is the case. But obviously when the when the trial breaks gas Knowle's frantic because he knows that Bowen was pay Bowen's father was paid and their one hundred thousand dollar plan set up with all of this stuff. And I think he is concerned whether or not he believes maybe things Pacino's, but he's never talked with them explicitly about it. He said that so many times that I do, I do believe that's the case, but I think he's trying to get a feel in that moment parish when the stories breaking September twenty six, two thousand seventeen. Okay. You know the the sheath is coming down here. Let me just check in with Rick. See what he says. And Patino indicates really nothing in that moment. So I think that's part of it because another piece of context here is that gas Nola wasn't really involved in the Boeing deal all that much the way that he was the other one. And he even said in court that he was, he wanted to feel like he was a part of it though he wanted to inject himself into. I mentioned before how these guys were kind of running like mini cons on each other or somewhere stepping on one turf over the other. That was the case with gas Nola and Bowen to an extent. And so I think he just had some concern that the, you know, with himself like the two most prominent important coaches to Adidas, I think he might have gotten read in the faces that story was breaking, and that's why he did it. I'll buy that. I'll buy that. You know. With Patino because you know what you said is that. You know, he may have known, but TJ has made it clear. He never talked about it explicitly with him. I was obviously victim media yesterday and the big ten head coach that I was talking with off camera because I was there doing sit down one on one interviews on camera with not every coach, but most of the coaches, everybody from. Matt painter to Mark Turgeon, Tom Izzo, John Beland, arch Miller, Brad Underwood. They sh- it was all being done for CBS sports h. q.. So if you're interested in any of that, and I sat down with Ethan, have Carson Edwards, Anthony cow, and so on and so forth. All of those interviews are over at CBS sports h. q. right now. But off came, I was talking to one big, ten coach, and we weren't talking specifically about. Patino and the guy that I think we were actually talking about Kansas in the guys. But the point he made is that. These guys can honestly under oath say, I never told Rick Pitino this right? Never told Bill self that because you wouldn't. You wouldn't talk about it because the coaches don't want to hear it. The coaches want you to do what you're doing, but they don't wanna hear it because they want to still be able to. Yeah, have plausible deniability. But even more than that, they wanna be able to on some level look themselves in the mirror and not see themselves as cheater. So when TJ guests Nola tells you, hey, I, I'm gonna help you with this or let me work on that. You know what that means. But but nothing further is said because nothing further needs to be said. And so it is why I find TJ believable when he says, I didn't tell Bill self or I didn't tell Rick Pitino. But I don't think that necessarily means to Kansas step didn't know or the Louisville staff didn't know if that makes sense. It does make sense, and it's part of the guy said was like he actually said, if if if one of my shoe company guys was out there working for me and it was a character TJ gas, no. If he's saying, hey, listen, coach, this five star kid, he's on the market. I know you're involved. I'm gonna help you with that. Like, you know, Adidas is here to help. I'm gonna I'm, I've got a relationship with the family, and so just let me work on that and see if I can see what I can get done. The guys that I would. I know how I turf it, that I, it is they're going to get. They're going to get down and go out there and try to get this dome for me in whatever way they need to do it. I don't need to know. But I know I know my guys out there working for me and you know what that means. It doesn't mean like I'm just going to send a text message and see if I can get you an official visit. It means I'm gonna get their work for you and try to get this done. And so I think these things can be true that nobody ever told Bill self. This is what we are doing. Sylvia desouza. This is what we're doing for Billy Preston. And then nobody ever told Rick Pitino what we're doing from Brian boa. But that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't know what was going on. They might not have known the six because they didn't need to know didn't wanna know. But. It's hard to believe. For me, at least. And I think for most people, it's hard to believe that you wouldn't have a pretty good idea of what's going on. Given how long you've been in the business of high level recruiting and yes and gas, Nola himself, you know, he, he, he passed bad checks and committed larceny and fraud in his twenties. Evaded doing taxes. He is being painted as not a flattering character here. And with that as a fact, you know, just think about how many people in your own life you would. You would trust even an informal business capacity like that. I mean, this is just, this is what the sport is a certain extent. It just is okay and to anyone who schools haven't been affected by if you root for a school that is considered a top fifty variety at minimum. Just understand that that this has been happening in many cases, not all, but in many cases, obviously for decades, we're not hitting on on new ground there. If I may parish, let me just real quick. We talk on the press and stuff mostly I won't. I won't do much in that, but I just want to real quick. And on the other four players Castano testified to to paying their families. Bowen junior, it's a whole long, sordid affair. You know, it starts when he's on a team at fifteen years old. In fact, immoral coats, senior who was a judge in South Carolina is also defending his son. In this case, when after Bo and senior early in the week and incredible five minutes of of cross examination. I mean, this was not long. It was in fact it was amazing. When you look at the way all of the other defense lawyers, prosecution lawyers are preparing their questions, what they're going up there with just binders. Two feet deep. It feels like I'm bores l. and I were talking. We're convinced that the legal community alone will ensure that paper companies exist ad infinitum de amount of paperwork that is involved in this case is suffocating. And yet here you have Merle coach senior with like four loose leaf pieces of paper, bang, bang, bang, quick questions, and he is it true that because of your son's talent you picked him out since he was fifteen objection cer- incredible. There was. Allured accusation about Boeing senior being in New York and looking to find some companionship that I won't get into too much, but that was by far. No. Let's get into that for sure. What was he? What was he trying to get involved in? It was not related to the case whatsoever. Basically, what was happening with this was you've got code senior, obviously furious and his sons in the situation began with and you've got Boeing senior who is in part responsible. You can't call them completely culpable because he's not. But impart the reason why co juniors is involved here and so as but no means other than to toss out a memorable quote that the jury Shirley will have ringing in their ears and just to further diminish the character, Brian Bowen senior Marocco senior said, you know, is it or is it not true that when you landed in New York, you reached out to. Think it was dock ins, but I don't know for sure. I pretty sure it was dockings and texted, you know. Excellent, excellent. I need to get some. And so. When that happens. I mean the objection. It was out of a TV courtroom scene. The immediate objection, the immediate heavy-handed sustained from judge Kaplan. Code senior being up there, understanding knowing what was fully coming. It was. It wasn't incredible moment and we'll have no. No impact on. On the on the on the remainder of the questioning going forward. But anyway, Astra, Boeing. So his family is looking to get money to have otherwise they're gonna leave. It needs to go play for different Nike team. Chris rivers is on on trial in this case, but as an Adidas, grassroots executive that you and I both know in fact who was heavily involved when the lamelo ball crap happened in Vegas in twenty seventeen in the law. Lavar ball going after the female official and all that stuff. One of the guys that we reveal with a lot or at least I was was Chris rivers because he was the basically, the guy that was overseeing that massive, Adidas gauntlet tournament that's happening in Las Vegas will rivers has been brought into this trial one because he was kind of heading up a lot of these guys, you know, gas Nola, and code and other people on a Dita's black ups thing. And he even writes an Email one point that says, hey, listen, don't put any of the black Steph ops in on paper, but he's doing this on an Email. He's doing this on paper. What are you doing anyway? Rivers is involved not as much as the other characters early on with Boeing, Bo in the second or Boeing, junior, I guess it's the second I've heard it referred to both, but that's beside the point. So money gets delivered their Bowen senior. Testifies that rivers delivers like eighteen thousand dollars at one point when they're getting twenty five thousand and this this whole pattern continues obviously, is bones. Recruitment goes on. I don't wanna just burrow hole after hole after hole, but then you get into all it to Paul stuff, which is frankly, just doesn't look good. The Creighton stuff doesn't look good at all, and then gas Nola just he becomes sort of a a periphery on that. And then he gets concerned because docking starts running his mouth about Boeing, getting hundred thousand dollars to go to Louisville and all that stuff. He was the least interesting one is pertained to Gasol is testimony. Overall. I'm gonna save Susa for last because he is. He is the active player that's still involved in this as for Eytan. The context around Aden, and I think that there he still could come up next week. Frankly, I think he and Shawn Miller could come up. We wait and see if Shawn Miller being on the phone on wiretap gets played in this trial or not. To me, that's arguably the biggest, will it happen or will it not remaining in in this specific case or not? Because that is doc. Ins talking to him and dockings is on trial here. It would not stand a reason that that call would get played at the next trial or the one after that with eight Gasol testifies, obviously identified as an elite talent at a young age wanting to get in with Eytan, wanting to get eight and to Kansas. Okay. And Gastineau testifies that this is only one of the really new things. I think notable things to come out in the afternoon session on Thursday, which was largely kind of boring, and the defense was just stumbling over questions and not getting anywhere. But guess Nola did testify the attempted to get permanent housing and set up a job for aids mother in Kansas in an effort to get eight and to Kansas gas also tested. Fide around that time on Thursday that he felt he let Bill self down by failing to get eight and to Kansas think those are relevant pieces of information. What we don't know is the other half of the coin. In terms of eight and getting to Zona, but fifteen thousand dollars was delivered when Ayton was a junior in high school to again, Larne l. shout out to Larne l. okay, schaus to learn without a doubt shouts to Larne shouts to learn l. who then was believed to be giving it to Aden's mother that did not gain traction. Defense was not allowed to really get into why didn't gain traction objections based on relevance, hearsay, what have you, but there you have it. I think eight n- is still open ended at this point. All right, Dennis juniors to fourth player. Now he gets to payments. And as I said in the last podcast, this was this was just one of those things that when Dennis I remember watching Dennis Smith junior in Las Vegas at Adidas, and just the general feeling was like Dennis issues getting paid to state. Everyone knows it, but as journalists, we cannot we cannot corroborate this information to publish. But this was one of the bigger ones at the past five, six years in my opinion. Well, now we know obviously, this is the case, so he gets to different payments wants when he's a junior in high school. The second payment comes after he is committed. But before he enrolls, he enrolls in January twenty sixteen the payment comes. In November of twenty fifteen. And the reason it comes in part as we now learn and they're still going to be more with this. I think next week because the defense is trying to show that the money didn't come from deepest. It came from a money guy named Martin FOX who's out of Houston. And I was told by a source that a lot of players that have come out a few Ston good batter otherwise have have come across FOX. And he has been just a figure of varying influence in the lives of pro prospects out of Houston in the past, you know, seven to ten years or whatever. So the defense is trying to say, listen, this money that went to Smith in fact, might not have been Dita's. It might. It might have actually come from him. We'll see where they're going with that with that overall. But anyway, the point is were circles back to gas Nola in the guys that ghetto that there is some some needing to quote, calm the situation about Dennis Smith junior and everything at NC state. And so they figure, okay. Well, forty thousand dollars, you know, that should that should probably be able to do it gas Nola testified that he went to former NC state assistant Orlando early who for the record. I've tried to reach for content comment and has not responded. About all of this. They asked gas Nola. What early said when he discussed this in his quote was I don't recall and then the quotas. But he didn't say no. And the tone of gas Nola when he said that particular sentence really landed heavy for me. So. What happens here is gas gets on a plane with forty thousand dollars, and that's another thing like earlier in the trial pairs. One thing links to another like you had Boeing senior trying to figure out like if you needed to drive halfway across the country with cash, or could he sneak twenty thousand dollars onto a plane. If he was going to do it, how he was going to do it like so much of this stuff man is is wild in the moment, and we're writing furiously because I can't bring my phone. I can't bring a recorder in. So everything that's said like just furiously writing on a notepad. And if you read any quotes in my story or hear him here, there are a hundred percent accurate. There's a lot of quotes I wrote, but if I'm listening to it on a wiretap call or saying testimony and I don't have it all, I don't have the confidence and frankly will not go with it if I don't have the quote. Exactly, right. So you've got castes Nola flying out of Hartford into Raleigh. I classes always. He would stay in the nicest hotels. He'd he records huge expenses that we get repaid by Jesus in this consultant role, and he. Goes to Orlando's earliest house earliest there. He gives the forty thousand dollars with the inter standing that early going to deliver the forty thousand dollars to to a trainer of Dennis Smith juniors. And from there you know, it's done, whatever's done is done. There was no testimony that this is really a material, but there's no testimony that the family dentist union was ever paid once he was on campus and a student for a year and a half and see state. But regardless, it's terrible look for NC state in this regard. That's the only only instance here. With gas Nola that an assistant not only had knowledge, but actually helped transact money. He moved it from one person to the next against the rules. The only other thing we have that for sure is Johnson give given Brian bow and senior thirteen hundred dollars outside of seniors apartment in Louisville in September of twenty seventeen. And even then Kenny Johnson says, this is going to be a one time deal. This of course happens like six Africa, any Johnson claims? Well, they meet a gas station that he didn't even really know that he was supposed to be paying to begin with. That's another deal altogether, but that's not a good look for NC state. Obviously not a good look for early or Mark Godfrey who is now the coach at Cal State Northridge and that school is yet to put out a statement, I believe in relation to what happened here. And last we have Silvio to Susa, obviously still at Kansas eligible at Kansas couple things here with him, you had a Kansas compliance director that was brought in. Got into some some stuff here and there that at this point just doesn't feel to relevant like, but the fact that Kansas didn't complete proper paperwork with Billy Preston on official visits and stuff. It's not a, it's not a good look for Kansas at all or the prosecution, but okay, Susa. He's eligible right now. The compliance director said that end. That is my understanding. Now here's why it is in part to Sa's guardian NFL main gets paid twenty five hundred dollars to help pay for night classes for Silvio Susa prior to getting to Kansas and what I would suspect to be necessary classes in order for him to clear admissions to Kansas and or the instable is standards for division one student athlete. So he gets twenty five hundred dollars at this point. As gas is testifying. There's a booster at Maryland paint sixty thousand dollars to foul main, and there then becomes a battle over, okay, you know, do we wanna get disuse off of Under Armour and to Adidas and Kansas in? Are we going to we're to mass that sixty thousand so this they set up a payment plan for I for twenty thousand. And the only reason why Silvio Seuss's guardian NFL main did not receive twenty thousand dollars gas Knowle's own words were because of this investigation because the story breaks when it breaks everything halts. Okay. So if you're Kansas fan and your final four never gets vacated and Silvio Susa averages fourteen and seven this year and helps you to another one seed and never winds up having an issue with his eligibility. Be thankful that this case happened to begin with now maybe nothing gets ever at all, but that's why his eligibility is still out there right now. It is pretty interesting and they can. Indus remains pretty adamant that he is that he is going to be eligible. But I, I do believe that he'll be eligible if only because the NCAA's probably not going to roll on him, right. You can't play him. Can Kenya you have to hold him out, I guess. So because here's the other thing, you can still punish schools. I don't know if there's going to be the case though, because it was supposedly knowing that the school involved in this for intent. The answer. The answer. And if you're amateur status compromised, your amateur status is compromise. Yeah, I agree. Like, here's what I think. I think it would be insane for Kansas to play him and they could. They could be on track to win a national championship this season. You don't want to have to look back because you played somebody who it was alleged in federal court has amateur status compromise just because instantly hasn't ruled on it yet. Oh, we'll, we'll just play them and hope for the best I would again, I'll let their compliance people make that decision. They, they know the ins and outs this more than you and I, but I'll be surprised if he's in uniform at the champions class. I also we have to bring this up. Okay. Silvio guardian is Bruno Fernando's guardian Brito. Fernando plays at Maryland. Okay. So if you're Maryland and athlete department that's already faced serious, heavy, legitimate fire this year. For what happened with the football player who was killed after the workout. Like, I'm sure Maryland has has done. The investigations feels necessary that it needs to have been done, but you have new information under oath coming out publicly disclosed that the guardian was accepting. Why would he do one and not the other? You have to ask that question. If you're Maryland, you have to be satisfied. You have to clear this just. Just to me that is very vulnerable for the Terrapins right now. So this is this is how there can be. Unintended consequences for other schools that aren't directly on trial here, but once who have been implicated overall. And I still think next week is going to bring more information like it didn't stop because you know this week was done, I guess, still on the stand. I still think we can get more and we don't know who they're going to wrap up with all the witnesses gas, the last witness for the prosecution. They still more to come. And by the way, just real quick for any future, guardians of elite basketball prospects. If you take sixty thousand dollars from a booster and decide you wanna go to a different school, you don't have to pay it back. There's really anything they can do like, what are they going to do incriminate themselves? Exactly. What do you do? What amateur hour? Like dude. Okay, you got your sixty thousand dollars. Now this go. Do what you wanna do? What are they going to call the civil on themselves? Chalking up. People do that all the time. Like I've heard about players taking money from agents and then just going with another agent and it's like, what are you? Gonna? Do you gonna go? You're going to tell the instability that you were paying me while I was a student athlete, you're gonna go like, go tell the unified, a lawsuit against me and admit that you were breaking major incidentally, rules ball, pay me just chock it up as loss. So. Sylvia brutal Fernando's guardian. He didn't seem to have a good grasp on how to go about doing this stuff like honestly, like you should be a certain code involve. If you're gonna take sixty grand from somebody. You need to go to the school probably where you took sixty grand from. But if you do decide to go somewhere else, you ain't got to pay it back up, bet you never going to pay it back. Double dipping. Course, why wouldn't you man. Let me let me be the guardian of somebody. I wanna be somebody's guardian. I wanna be Larne hill. I have. I have to add before we wrap up. This is just one more thing is junior, it's it's just it was just a funny moment like BoyZone I looked each other when this happened, so they showed this text. So Dennis Smith, Adidas spends all this money all this time trying to get Dennis Smith junior, right plays at NC state, fantastic, freshman, they missed the tournament Godfrey. It's fired. Dennis Smith junior, declares distracted, lottery pick, and he goes with Under Armour so that didn't go to plan. And shortly there now NC states, it's probably vacate that dunk. He and Camry they have to vacate the dunk, correct hashtag vacant dunk. There's no doubt about the talk without a doubt. So there's a text message. I, I don't know why the struck us so funny, but there's a text message between guests Nola and ghetto. About Dennis Smith junior, their disrespect is out of control. It's gas Miller saying, you know, the disrespect is out of control with Dennis. I can't believe this. You just ticked off that he didn't stick with the dias and that Tex sent at four thirty at four thirty. One gadoe just simply replies, Jaylen Brown, had a good game last night. I was just, I don't know. It was. It was so funny that context in which that up and and I don't know who Jalen Brown assigned to by the way Nike for all I know. I don't know, but, but it was just it was funny because gas only just ticked off on belief in it's almost just like Gada just he notes. It's just too far gone anyway, like we just gotta move on. Let me ask you this. Do we have theory for why? Brian? VO and seniors trying to protect Oregon, Tony Stubblefield because that was bizarre. Yeah, like so the allegation is that Tony Stubblefield at Oregon gave him three grand, and this was like, gave him three grand, not forty years ago, but like literally in last year. And he says, I don't recall. And again, I was talking to a big ten coach yesterday. This is a yes or no way. It's impossible to not recall whether Pac twelve assistant gave you three thousand dollars cash. The answer is either. Yes, he did or no, he didn't, but that's not the, I don't recall thing like, hey, what did you eat for lunch on October fourth, two thousand fifteen. I don't recall sense. Did a cystic coach at Oregon give you three grand cash? I don't recall. What are you talking about? You don't recall. That's like yes or no. And so the answer is clearly, yes. Like I'm just gonna -ssume that that happened. And so why, why? Why try to protect Oregon, Tony Stubblefield. What is the what? What would be the motivation there. Could not even imagine. I can't imagine parish, you're under oath cut a deal with the government. I can't imagine. And by the way, just for context here that question gets brought up by the defence. It gets brought up by doc and his lawyer. He brings in Tony Stubblefield the lawyer. He brings in the three thousand dollar figure the lawyer does, and then he says, he doesn't recall. There was also a separate question about UCLA. That was not a specific that Bowen senior also said he couldn't recall, but we're talking about a guy who had a bat phone. He referred to it as a bad phone. You talked to Christian doctrines on his bat phone, and if you're if you're someone who has a bat phone and yet at the same time, can't recall certain money deals. It's just a little bit shady. All right. Last thing before we get out of here. Obviously the trial. Continues on Monday. They were not in the courtroom today, which is Friday. What do we expect next week and wind? Are we ultimately going to know if these men are guilty or not guilty as timeframe on it? Okay. So next week, the prosecution will wrap with its witnesses, at least it should barring. Extended testimony. I really don't think that'll happen with and all he should be done by Monday. They'll bring in two more witnesses. They're planning and then the defense will get their shot. I don't know how many and who they're bringing in as of Wednesday morning win. The lawyers talked to the judge and this is when the jury's not the room and there are no witnesses in the room. The plan was for them to be putting the case in the jury's hands, the week of October twenty second meaning. At least I took that to mean that by Thursday, October eighteen or Thursday October eighteenth because there's no trial on Friday's, closing arguments would be done. So best case scenario. I think you have closing arguments on starting Wednesday, finishing Thursday are all done on Thursday. There is the possibility that closing arguments going to the Monday, October twenty second Tuesday, October twenty. Third, I have no feel on how long it will take the jury. URI to be out on this and to make a decision. But the judge did say, it doesn't look like that they're going to have to go into November with this, but that was before gas Knowle's testimony started taking much longer than they expected. I think he is delay the trial at least one day from what it was expected as of Wednesday morning. But that's, I think we're going to be wrapped up by Tober. And when we do our next podcast, I think we'll have new information that we will be discussing. And we can obviously also if if we so pleased, and I certainly would like to start tapping into some preseason chatter and stuff that's happening on the court shouts to Devon, chef just Carolina, Terry particular show to lar- now and remember you can subscribe to the college basketball podcast via apple podcast rated favourably five dollars five stars then also type a nice comment or two or whatever. That's all we ask from. We're going to be here again next week till then take care.