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Ezra Klein


You walk made it weird with the homes. Look what's happening. Weirdos this Ezra Klein journalist blogger political commentator and the CO founder of. Vox He is the editor there and a great guy. I found out that he is a Weirdo and I was excited to have them. Come on as you guys know. I'm not a super super political but obviously this is an interesting political time for everybody so I thought it'd be time to have him on we record this A couple of weeks ago Before a certain election so we're we're behind when you listen to this we're behind some of the stuff we talked about. Might be a little bit dated but in general. It's pretty pretty evergreen stuff and fun and very interesting. I really enjoyed it and I hope you do too. I'm going to be in Cleveland this weekend. And San Jose Houston Phoenix. Saint Louis and Salt Lake City. Doing stand up with the silly silly fun with as a part of the silly silly fun boy tour Laura Bites. It's incredible we're also doing alive. You made it weird at Largo here in Los Angeles on March eighteenth with Kenny G. Who's one of the most interesting people in the world and he's also Kenny G. So that's going to be incredible. I'm so happy to get to spend some time with some weirdoes. Live March eighteenth. I also When the straps I will have just tweeted a two for one Promo so you can get two for the price of one to come to see a live. You made it weird in Los Angeles. If you nasty also be doing Largo on the twenty fifth doing standup. I believe that Gal fanatic is going to be on that one. It's GONNA be incredible. It always is. That's Pete Holmes Living at Largo on March Twenty Fifth. And as always as you guys know. I don't do traditional ads. I only promote things that I actually used and loved. One of them is sitting here right. Now it's my alphabrain from on it. Alphabrain is a new ATRO- pick. It is earth grown ingredients. It is not a stimulant like caffeine. It is basically just nutrients that your brain needs to think to focus to concentrate and to create. I love it for the past four or five years. Now I have sworn by Alphabrain before I write a script before I do standup certainly before I record this podcast Or even just go out to dinner or even just have a lazy day at home and want full access to the potential of my brain. I take Alphabrain I love it. It really really has made a huge huge difference in my life and I always keep it with me in my coat pocket. I HAVE IT IN MY CAR. I have in my house. I have it in my office. Obviously here and it is wonderful. The best thing to do is to try it. If you WANNA give it a try and show your support of this always free podcast you can go to on it an it dot com slash weird. And you'll get ten percent off Alphabrain to help you with memory and focus and creativity and it also gives you cool dreams. If you're into that it also just helps you get your life. Go and get your work done. I swear by it I love. It makes a huge difference for me to give it a try on it dot com slash weird. The other one that I am currently pumping full of is catava. Catava is a plant based superfood drink mix made with the most nutrient rich exotic superfoods that have been revered by tribal cultures for centuries a lot of people are curious these days as they should be about eating more plant based food but so many people don't know where to start. I always point them to Catava not only because it is delicious and filling. But because it's actually incredibly tasty delicious. What I meant was not just because it's full of nutrients but because it's actually delicious. There you go. It's one hundred percent plant based got Omega threes in there. It's got eight super fruits in the bag. Seventeen Greens and veggies seventeen. Greens and veggies. I mean when I'm traveling and I have a hard time getting produce in MMA body. Catava is in my carry on to help me get those. Greens that I need. There's no gluten. There's no soy. There's no artificial. Sweeteners or preservatives. Got powdered coconut milk in there. So mixed with the water bless you val and makes it very creamy and chocolate so it tastes like chocolate milk. Shake you can make it with water. I can't believe you can make it with just water and it's delicious or you can make with something like almond milk pros and strawberries. It tastes like chocolate. Strawberry milkshake. Twenty four grams of plant based protein. To keep you full for hours and nine grams of fiber a lot of people take it for weight control. I didn't even know that when I started taking it. I took it because it gets me high as got macaroni in there. For Vitality for Energy Raka Cowan. They're wonderful mood elevating quality But it also does keep you full for hours so it's like a meal replacements like as close as I've come to finding a meal in a pill and you can get twenty percents off and show your support of this show by going to Catava DOT COM K. A. C. H. A. Dot Com slash weird. And you'll get twenty percents off your order all right guys. Hope to see you live for Kenny G. On MARCH EIGHTEENTH LARGO DASH LA DOT COM for tickets or on the twenty fifth. Doing stand up and I hope to see you out on the road Cleveland this weekend San Jose Houston Phoenix Saint Louis and Salt Lake City. All of those tickets are available at Pete. Holmes DOT COM. In the meantime please enjoy my chat with my new friend as Klein get into value Wednesday. Get into it you can say any real Sassafras Eh. Do it here. Yeah it's crisp. It's good for comedy piece of show business. I feel like is the House of Representatives. It looks warm old. It's very old so well. They love it yes he got to be like. Did they unwrapped? Do they make like an UNWRAP? Your where there's originals. Before we start there has to be something and we've done it in the first twenty seconds. We maxed out my ability to talk about politics. Like to talk about as little politics as possible you like to. I'll do whatever you want but I'm excited about a no I think a break said No thesis of the Book Many Times. So I'm happy to go off off the off the rails. Let's let's get it out of the way up top. You wrote a book called why we're polarized. I did how many I'm not asking this question. How many interviewers? Just go Ezra. Why are we polarized right? It's you're walking right into it. I made a tactical mistake from the beginning of the book with the title. Yes I disagree. I created the first question. I my book. Sorry I know if somebody asks that they have not read the book. Yeah that's like the tell because you would have if you had read the book. Nakas book says you shouldn't ask that but just because if you've read the book you just you would have like something else would have made you mad or come up. I or yes but if you like. Why don't we polarized okay? Sorry I was like the guy that was checking twitter while I was talking to you just because we're trying to get these headphones to work but we're not we're in this for the for the humanity. Oh Yeah podcast. Yeah I just want to comment on decor like I love. Your joker. Batman reminds me the end of Lego Batman one of the maybe the greatest of all Batman Movie Salmon Seen Lego Batman. That's embarrassing is. The Joker is oh. There was something happened there. Oh you didn't have it either now. We were fighting the fight for you as well. Yes I thought you were rock and we were in solidarity needed down a little. Please no one thank you for figuring that out and maybe split the difference between those two. You seem to me. I don't you take like a person who would have seen Lego Batman. No I take that as a high compliment. You're welcome. I always feel like I'm letting people not that's not true. That's an overstatement but sometimes I worry that I'm letting people down by not being as silly and light filled as I come across and when you say I see you as a as a Lego Batman Person I hear I see is light filled person and I'm like that's what I'm trying to be trying to be the guy that has the bandwidth and the joy to be like but I'm not always that guy. Sometimes I get little meagerly and I start to atrophy and that's fair and I draw the blinds and I feel like I have to be a guy who wants to talk about politics all the time. What in my actual life. I'm actually I am harder to talk about politics within your average person because I'm tired of it. Yeah and also don't WanNa fall into professional persona when I'm around people. I love and care about I. Can't I completely agree? Coldest microphone to hold a glow tape. It's yeah it'll it'll popsicle and everybody to be a little bit uncomfortable or I've always wanted to start a podcast with a reminder. That will die one day and here. We're doing direct momentum. Just yes did you know. There's a store called Memento Mori in Disneyworld Disneyland. Does IT HAVE MEMENTO MORI MEMENTOS MAURY. It has mementos more. Yeah just goes in and you buy a pen for the children say one day. I'll be us. I've been doing occasional MEMENTO MORI meditations. Oh great she find useful. It's the most useful I I should say. I actually find this centuries old. There's no judge zone. I'm not what what's a political person? That's rough on you. I don't know anything I was GonNa Take Wolf Blitzer. Anything you're in the city is still blitzer. I mean I can't tell you how to be here Chris. This podcast is one of the two podcasts. Into podcasting really yeah. I'm old. You made it weird fan. I'm so excited to hear that. That's really really nice. Which is why I'm terrified. They're gonNA talk about politics because I'm not going to be great. No I mean we'll talk. We can talk about it. How you'd like to talk about it but I'm interested in the show business of politics from your experience. That sounds like I'm like grill you. That's not what I mean. How often have to wear a tie? Yes not always. That's right I've seen you in many interviews wearing the ties often it's part of my signaling that I am somewhat younger yep but not now also young thirty five now. I don't feel that young I went through. I went through a long period. Where people would ask me how old I was like you motherfucker. Because now they're trying to say you're short pants but now they don't even know they just mean that knee being that young made them feel old but now it's happened to me. I was just talking to somebody. My last stop who was telling me they graduated college in two thousand eighteen. Well and I was got even though you could graduate college. Yeah and people are born in twenty twenty that. I'm more comfortable because I was a kid but we are. I think had vox. We are either have but I think more likely are near to hiring our first person born after the millennium which is just at that point. I'm going to step out onto an ice floe and go to my my. He's for reward. We've been talking about that. All another momentum are young. Young people are Memento Mori. All the time I mean. Parenthood is a straight up constant realization replacement. Yes I hug. Leila all the time and I'm like what is going on in my brain hugging and this is not how I categorize her in my mind but I think something in my cells is going. This is you. This is how you will live on. I do stink in my head all the time thinking. Well when he's fifteen all be really. You know fifty. I guess that right. Yeah that's right and it just. I'm constantly pushing this weird fast forward. Where when when he's ex I'll be why it makes you realize that it's GonNa. It's GonNa come that you do it to trip out on the idea that at some point he'll be five now. I do it because I can't stop thinking like that. Yeah I it's more. It's a problem. I'm not sitting there thinking God. It'd be good if I was constantly calculating how close I am to no longer being able to spend time with my son will. There's a way to do it where your eye trip out on enjoying that? At some point I'll know who Leila is as a personality right so when I'm like when she's fifteen I'll be fifty five or something and that's crazy just to consider that she'll be eight fifteen year old person that I like to do. You're doing it like tick. Tock tick tock running out of time. Yes what a nightmare. I know it's like that it's a Jewish spiritual practice. I was GONNA make the joke but I don't know if we're there yet if we can open up the the style I'm into it really vetting style of Humor. I don't I I like I like. I hope you that takes the least Jewish sense of humor. I've almost overheard I like very much. I guess how dare you. That can't be true. Judd related and like not. The jet is aggressively Jewish. But Jad made a joke. He's like he's like the rabbis certify. Kochan is for comedy. He makes sure we salt the blood and then he wanted to. When I did a sketch jet he was like you. He jokingly was. I can't work with you because I only work with Jewish people and then it was like well. I took it as a compliment as I'M I. I sort of have like how people are. GonNa GET CLIPPED OUT IN EVERY LEON. Todd cast not this show. You're in a safe. You could say anything on this show. That's what they always tell you. Man You say actually in the in the realm of Jewish jokes. My grandfather had joke that I think about a lot and I wonder if I'm wrong about how this joke but as I remember it a guy goes into the doctor and says you know Dr Like my wife left me. I'm sick like I don't know what to do. And the doctor says will smile at least can't get any worse and so the guy smiled and then things got worse. Wait I'm looking for and his teeth. Fell out or something. You're just saying it showed us as and then things got worse for some reason that is stuck in my head forever. I am almost sir knowing my grandfather. My late grandfather. That's probably not how the joke went but I remember it clearly and for some reason I think of it often. I think I know I have a theory. Why we've known each other almost twelve minutes. I know but Steve Martin on his records. This was in his book. He talked about how his records were really popular because he was doing visual comedy on an audio medium. So he's doing things and you can't see them so I was a communications major. What are useless thing? It becomes a hot media. Meaning participatory you have to imagine. What is he doing? So you actually have this sort of relationship with Steve. And the record as opposed to just like downloading content similarly. Your grandfather's joke makes you wonder how then it's very rabbinical. I like that the young boy stands up on Passover and goes. How then did things worse father and then you discuss and debate. Yeah I like that I like. I like the grimness of that joke. Yeah this is actually one thing that I believe is journals just in life is that it is okay to say things are bad or have been bad or are bad and we'll get worse. I'm like not a big believer in false optimism. And so just took you like things can get. There is a comfort. Oh Yeah knowing. Things get worse like the like the closest to optimism that exists in. My book is the idea that as bad as we think things are today they were almost always worse. In the past we have just like erased it in the stories we tell. Yeah and so. If you want to feel better the way to do it is not a fool yourself about the now but be more clear eyed about then which then American then glare can then. I'm in global. That has also been bad. Yeah life has been the trends have been general good over the last couple of Hundred Years. But Oh my God. The levels have often made terrible. Yeah yea even right now. The trend America's bad but the levels actually not nearly as bad as you would think it is just watching the news or feeling the level of emotional arm like things aren't nearly as bad as they were in the nineties for instance And so just recognizing things have generally been pretty bad and you're just trying to better at a time is like there is a kind of realist comfort in it. I was going to jump to the sixties you went to the ninety or the I know. That's my point in the nineties which we remember the. You could not be Okay Soda. Don't ask don't tell don't ask don't tell was the compromise position. Oh you're right. Yeah don't ask don't tell was like considering progressive. No nobody was like this is like a more. If you read Bill Clinton's Convention Platform on immigration. It just sounds like donald trump really like straight up trump EST Things were just worse. Yeah they were like less fair less decent. You know it's funny it didn't it. Felt like I was getting better. Which is important to people. I noticed that in in comedy I know this sounds silly but literally your thing is politics. Might think is comedy. I look at comedy of olden days. And I'm like if you did this now. Yes is hate speech. Yes and I'm not saying it shouldn't be. I'm saying because I was raised religious. I stopped doing this job. I was like I. I was way ahead of the curve on being offended right. People don't like that joke they also don't understand. I like I'll say it in conversation. I'll say it to you but it either gets applause from the Christians because they think I'm saying we're right and I'm and I'm trying to say what I'm not religious anymore but like when I was and I'm actually kind of teasing that you're offended but you don't get it and then the people who aren't Christner like are you saying we're like fundamentalists like fuck you. So like no one wins so I don't do the joke anymore but I used to see just as kind of like a as much my religious identity I also went to an aggressively liberal grade. School K Through Eight K. Through eight and I just had like a more sensitive barometer for what was offensive especially when it came to like making fun of Gay People Are Making Fun of other races or whatever it might have been so when I was doing comedy I was like in. You know the early two thousand. I was like what the fuck is going on with a lot of it. I watched the comedy in the nineties. I was picking up on what you're picking up on when you're watching Bill Clinton's immigration Pau or anything. I mean every so often we watch the forty year old virgin which is amazing movie but that scene where they're just going back and forth with you know high. No your gauge Belcher seen does not H. Well yeah yeah and I remember seeing that in the theater and all but like standing up and I just told you I went to an way more than usual liberal school and I was still like. Yes your gay. If you like Enya you know what I mean like. This is how we talk. It's finally on the screen. Although to be honest I didn't. I didn't learn that type of joking until later in life but I know you mean these are these are how so. The trend feels really bad. But we've not given back actually a lot of the gains. We've made the guts piece of optimism about this moment that is bad as Donald Trump as and. I think he's real bad that the gains that got made over long periods of time. It's a this is a a push on them but it has not nearly succeeded yet. We are not back to even the levels of acceptable bigotry and dismissal. Chur of the nineties. Yeah yeah that's right. I'm sixty fucking crazy. I don't even want to say it but I was thinking about these times and I was like. It's kind of not. We have so many. I won't even list the things going on. I'll forget some and I'll be embarrassed but there's so many things going on and then it was like yeah but in the sixties there was a lot going on end leaders. Were being killed like ours. I think it is so one of the things that talked about. The buck is so polarization. Right is like the point of make about in the book is. It's about how your disagreement sort by party not about whether or not you have disagreements on the sixties when you look at what we were fighting over civil rights women's rights indigenous rights Vietnam. You had the Kent State killings urban. Riots the assassinations of JFK RFK. Martin Luther King Junior Malcolm X and people forget squeaky frahm pointed a gun at Gerald Ford from his far away from him as I am from you and pulled the trigger and the gun just didn't go off. Gerald Ford almost joined that group and Ronald Reagan was shot through the lung. Yeah that's what I'm saying Harvey Milk. I mean. Imagine this is what I don't WanNa say to quote our Defense Papa but like you WanNa be like what if someone. We beloved attacked. That's the sixties to me like changes coming. There's this voice of change their dead. And that's fucking crazy. And so the the one thing that was both bad for some periods of that was that the political system because stuff didn't sort by party like the Civil Rights Act was a perfectly bipartisan. Bill because he didn't support biparti either. What happened in politics was it suppressed disagreement as did over race for a long time in very unjust way or figured out a way to compromise through it which brought down the temperature when that worked now. Though can you imagine the way that would be amplified by politics? Yeah you know the what people would do with those moments. I I think that that is my scary version that if you got back to that level of social discord that the role politics at play would be an accelerate and just gasoline on the conflict right. I think it's interesting. Your whole book topic is interesting. Thank you identity is. Yeah just a bland compliment. I'm just on the back of your book if you want. I said interesting. Some guy that helps you. Launch Your podcast. That's my main credit that led to the client show. I just stand if I if I see further and other manage because I stand on the shoulders of Pete Holmes thank you what was I gonNa say though? We're talking about how bad things are. What are we talking about? I didn't know because you were going to say the sixties. Yeah I know it went away. Oh identity I think one of the reasons book is interesting. Let's let shit on politics politics one of the reasons. I'm not into politics as much as even your average person and then sports considerably less than the average person and even when it comes to like cultural phenomena like breaking bad. I'll watch it or lost. I'm into it enough but as I get older. I'm less and less with Interested in inheriting more identity. As you know from listening to this podcast spiritual I guess or whatever you WANNA call it not a religious podcast but I find identity to be a fun game to play and it can be very useful it can lead to specifically specifically of politics can lead to change it can lead to less suffering it can mean two more liberation of people and all and less pain like. I said so I understand that. There's certain times I have to go like well. I'm I know it doesn't light my fire but you have to get involved. So I'm going to concede that up top but like the older I get the more I am about like. I'm not a man I'm not a Bostonian. I'm not with you. I heard you talking about veganism. These are things that I used to identify myself. But they're not as interesting to me. It's like a real. It's a game like like I was very interested. You're saying twelve years of slaves make the twelve years. It's like point if you wouldn't mind sure. So there's a book side Michael Tesla and one of the things he's looked at is. The way will make racialist controversy split or don't split by party so in the nineties things like the OJ Simpson Trial Bernard gets trial the subway which was subway shootings Of A white man against black teenagers. I think it was those kinds of things. We're very socially divisive if you look at polling. But they didn't split by Party Democrats Republicans have more or less the same views on them. What did the region race races one of the big things and split them people very different views on it so I don't know if there were splits in the there was a lot of room to be like. I'm a Republican. But I'm yeah exactly today when you do this kind of polling splits very very sharply by by Ray so the George Zimmerman trial. I'm sorry by party. Thank you The George Zimmerman Trial. But the example. You're pulling out here is somebody pulled. Should twelve years a slave win the best picture? Oscar which is I think an amazing version because that was not a politicized controversy and since it like Republicans and Democrats didn't weigh in on it. I believe it was sixty. Seven percent of Democrats had absolutely and twelve percent of Republicans. Did so now. You're seeing these sorts of same conflicts over there in society they weren't. We didn't have rationalized controversy. Before it's that now it is mapped on in a very deep way to party. And that's because of a number of having the Democratic Party that have made it part of the Democratic Party identity is racial equity and being concerned about structural discrimination and things like that and part of the Republican Party identity is being less concerned about the things feeling like that has gone too far. And so now you have these these party identities mapped onto or feeding in from Not just sort of direct race identity like I'm a white person or an African American person but also racial value identities rate. I wonder if people have pointed out that joker has like a what is it like a celebrate but not by choice so and in cell like overlooked. You're you're wondering if people have I don't follow that. Are People really picking up on that? They've definitely I've not seen the Joe. If you're wondering. Why am a Lego Batman and a guy? That's a story you've been out of this not much. I know you have an eleven month old. I have a sixteen month old literally my day is. I'm up at five. I put her back down around eight or nine I nap and then I do a podcast so I'm not jumping on twitter to be like wait a minute. That story was about a white man really feeling like everyone was overlooking them. And now that I'm thinking about it. Everybody that tells him go. Fuck yourself is a minority for the most or non white person. I've not so funny. I'm in the opposite position of you. I have not seen this movie. Yeah but I am for my sins. A I exist within a lot of visibility of the cultural conversation I see people noticed that is put it as people picked up on that threat. If I'm here only somewhat dumb and be comfortable and confident while being done. I think that might be the sub subtitle PODCASTS. I WanNa say something's you about twelve years a slave and identity and I'm really forgive me listeners. Because you may be heard me say this before but it was a defining moment for me in politics. I went to a Christian College. I was friends with a guy named Heath Heath was a flaring Republicans and I was really drawn him. Because I didn't know any young people. This is in two thousand that were just like Super. I didn't know what the DNC was. I didn't know what the I didn't know what anything was. This guy was living breathing politics and it was like I don't want to. I'm not putting him down when I say he had. Like an almost an l Ron Hubbard. Type like charisma. Where you're like. Tell me everything about the world. They don't any you know what I mean like to somebody that you were drawn to and I still imagine. He's a an exciting person in interesting person so I met him. I was friends with him. He was so excited about the George W Bush election was really pushing for George W Bush to win and again I grew up in all these liberal Cambridge Massachusetts places and I was like confused by that and I'm probably nineteen or so and I'm like just tell me or twenty twenty one. I was like tell me about politics. What do you like about Republicans? And he went on and made me a Republican for like thirty minutes. In fact the first thing I registered as a Republican he just sold it to me so beautifully and passionately about how it should be less government and and they believe that the church is supposed to help not the government and that churches should be better. But that shouldn't be. You shouldn't tax people like why should working people have to pay for this and that that's what the churches for so he's kind of mixing religion. I was just sitting not literally but at his knee being like Holy Shit. This guy's incredible and it was about how the government should get out of the fucking way basically in just be the government and run boring government stuff and let us have our money and our liberty basically so it was like Holy Shit but then it was like I remember for some reason or another being like okay so I think at the time I just thought Republicans and conservatives were the guys that are like you should get a soda pop and you should take your girl to the dance and kiss on the cheek and say hello to father on the way home. You know what I mean like the gentleman's class and then I was like well. What about tobacco assuming that he was going to say tobacco is killing millions and millions of people a year? It's a fucking horrible thing. It should not be given breaks. It should not be encouraged as a crop and he went obviously he went completely the other way and it was like tobacco is a good American crop. It's a cash crop. It makes money for farmers and I was just sitting there going like. Oh it's not you know the good boy club but what I'm saying is I saw my friend heath towing a line of identity. Even when the issues jumped the line from the Norman Rockwell Republican image that I thought he embodied and as soon as it went to like cigarettes make money for people therefore they make money for the government and for everybody. It's okay I watched that. Irie feeling you get when you're like. Oh you're just swallowing a whole rhetoric. Yeah even though I know if your part I we say this on the podcast all the time. If for some reason liberals were like very very pro gun and conservatives were very anti gun but everything else was the same. Would we like how many people would just be like? That's our thing. Fuck you fuck you. I can't tell always see it all the time. I mean Do things on this so please think about this. That era a lot. Because isn't it weird that the Republican Party's view in that era like the heath view? I assume with that government can't do anything right like you don't want your healthcare by the guards into the DMV right near. I remember that we're gonNA invade a country. We know nothing about and rebuild. The whole society from the ground up as a liberal democracy. You like the government's GonNa do that. Yes and is it going to go well absolutely like it'd be great healthcare? That's better you can't like but like the can't get your license. Which is an Democrats? Do this kind of thing to the point that only Republicans do it but there is a lot less coherence. I was doing duck shepherds show not long ago and he was saying he's great and he was saying that we need to have this debate inside. It's a good debate to have between like the people believe in equality and the people believe in liberty. Which is I agree except that that debate is in no way coherent to what people to like. What the parties end up believing like sometimes Democrats want more liberty from something and like less of the government like setting an equal balance. Republicans want the opposite. And so you just end end up in like path dependent sometimes incoherence but also people take cues so. I've got a study. I talked about the book by a guy named Jeffrey Cohen. And he gets a bunch of Students. I think he's politicized scientist Republican psychologist Stanford students at the beginning of the year. He gives them like a survey and he says he in bunch of questions on it but among the questions are how interested are you in politics? Like how strongly a member of a party are you? And how strongly do you feel? How much do you know about welfare number years ago when this was a bigger issue and later he takes the kids? Who said they were involved in politics? How strong views and particularly how the strong views on welfare and he gives him some newspaper articles. Look at and like in all these studies. Newspaper articles have changes in them. Depending on who you are and basically the articles either describe the the papers either describe like a super generous welfare policy. It gives you a lot of money. It doesn't run out you get health insurance or guaranteed job it's renewable like etcetera etcetera or like a super stingy mean. One runs out quickly. And you get nothing and so on but the thing that he does varies in the newspaper articles which party supporting which policy and has leading devil leading. I didn't do it leading politicians. You're doing you. Did this study casting. You is the man in the lab coat there. You go and exactly what you would think would happen given that. I'm telling you the story happens. Which is at the Republicans? Say They have a super strong view on welfare if the if the super liberal policies described but the Republican party supporting it they support it and the Liberals who have the Super Liberal view on on welfare if the super stingy conservative one is described but they see the Democratic Party and the Liberals are supporting it they support it which is to say we take our cues for our party. There's an amazing isn't another study. I won't say it's super great length but I love it title by two guys named Bartell's nickens and it's called. It feels like we're thinking you are fun. Says when I talk about political science usually so thank you but I mean you retain that and brought it here like a dead bird. That's a gift. It feels like feels like feels like we're thinking but that's what I mean. The whole thing just feels like an animal like an unknown. It feels like not like I feel like what you think. I mean it's just middle aged and it's just like again five. I love thinking but it feels like you're just really love animus. Well I do have a direct relation so I guess I was picturing more of a light day which is a delightful way to start your morning. you were saying what is what is it feels like are are thinking study. It feels like we're thinking is another one of these studies thing that that study shows too fast forward it is that and this is. I think a scary thing to think about. If you're like me which is you spend all your time in politics and think about a lot that the people who do the most of this kind of partisan self-deception Which is the most fitting ideas into their basically group? Identity buckets are the people who are the most informed. Spend the most time thinking about it. The smartest about politics so there is this idea that maybe it's all just misunderstandings. And if we all dislike had the good information we would actually agree and we're just fighting because we haven't read enough but and I have a lot of evidence on this in the book but in fact it goes the opposite way the more you know politics editor. You are backing up. What is your group already? Needs you to believe. Almost no matter whether or not that was what they need you to believe two years ago or not. I could okay one of the reasons. I think I'm just sort of being utilitarian and pragmatic when I am. I get my politics mostly from human beings. I get it at parties. I get it at dinner as I ask people about stuff and they're like didn't see it on twitter and I'm just like no Dec- you tell me you tell me and I get by okay that way and then I have friends that are obsessed with politics and I think it's really weird. These are the people and I'm sure. Forgive me as you've probably heard this a million times but these are the people that were saying two things that I feel like have been proven to not be true when they were like Donald Trump cannot win i. I'm sure you get thrown this every day. I I said that too. I'm sure everybody I'M GONNA I'M GONNA put myself on. The boys are weren't you one of the people that thinks about it. The most I mean. Aren't you have fallen prey to your own eye? In that case I mean. I fell prey to some other weirder theories. They weren't really. I thought a Republican could definitely win. I had a weird political science and I thought Donald Trump couldn't but nevertheless it was wrong. You added more interesting nuance and why he thought he could. That's why a lot I just thought he just news junkie. You're on the inside your journalists. You're doing this stuff. I'm talking about my friends that watch whatever. They're watching the way that I watch movie us. They're into it. And then the other thing they would be like Bernie. Could I give money to Bernie in there like Bernie will never happen and I was just like I? I never get to be the person skating on the thing. I'm usually losing my head and getting too involved in a lot of stuff that I care about but with politics to be the person that's just like I don't know why I just think you're wrong because when Allen I do talk about politics and you can talk to me I go. Would you like to know what it's like to talk to an idiot? I'm an idiot you know. I don't mean that Nevada way I'm just like I'm the guy who I'm not that informed but I go with like basic stuff where I'm like Bernie's a good story. He lost like I'm looking at it as a storyteller as a show Biz guy. People feel like he got robbed last time he's been consistent. We have no truth and here comes an old guy coming in and basically it's basically the book of Amos in the old desma to comes in and he's like I'm here to shake it up and I'm like that's a good story. I get that and I think that people I think too so one. I thought trump couldn't win the republican primary. I always thought he could win. The General I should just say Oh interest in terms of what I was wrong about. The Republican Party wouldn't like would stop him And that the parties had just more power over the primaries and they ended up having but what this is something. I argue in the book but because people are actually so sorted in terms of the party the ultimate sport wherever they support it. I don't think there's a lot of chance I could be wrong. But you and your social circle here probably not that many people no matter who becomes the Democratic nominee are gonNA vote. Republican people very rarely now switch over to vote from one side to the other. It's not never but it's gone way way down because the two sides so different and so once you win a party's nomination you can win like that is at the presidential level like start at that point with forty six percent of the vote. Yeah and now. You're like wow. He breaks away fun. You'll have fun because they look where we are. No I think like things explained cleanly in clearly is thank you I. I don't like politics but I'm like I like what this guy saying. Wonderful great if you win the nomination you're already gonna get but dude the people like Bernie can't win. That's clearly wrong. I get so lit up again. I'm going to tie this into. Let's not forget. Our original point was I was saying the more informed. People just seem to be not necessarily batting better than an idiot just skating. On the froze over lake of politics it was just like just sorta like occasionally listening to which way the wind is blowing and it does look like. Bertie has a has a shot. We could be wrong. Who knows I'm not saying he's definitely going to get the nomination. But I was talking to somebody. That was like your an idiot you. You don't know what you're talking about and it was like all right. Let's let's get into whether or not news is intended to inform US later but I love to tie this into religion. People that will cross lines. Like my heroes. Richard Rohr is a good example. Whenever he talks about politics he does talk about a fluidity that you just don't see these days when people are just like like. I grew up. Christian. We're just you. Just vote for the pro-life candidate even though we know that people have more abortions under prolife candidate. I've I've heard or whatever it doesn't stop abortions as it's not a good enough one single issue thing is I as I thought it was when I was a personal anyway. We don't have the heroes that go like I am so informed and and know my heart well enough that I'm going to actually vote for a Democrat or I'm going to cross vote for Republican because of this. We are just identity hungry people that are busy and tired and would like to eat and Fox something and we just go. I'm a Republican. Just like my dad. Says he's a Red Sox fan which again goes back to my dislike of of identity. Because I'm like the Red Sox is a fucking story. It's an illusion. I know this is a new point. There from the Dominican Republic they're from Arizona. They're from Florida. They're not Boston. And we get a better deal and they'll leave and you'll cheer although not a sportsman can die. I'm I'm not actually no I am not. I know I was going to call them dopes. I don't think you're dopes. I just think like it's it's one of those ways that we go. This is me and when you look at it it's vapor and that is a lot of things I'm going to. I'm going to do a whole riff here because I think you're gonNA I wanted one. I'm GonNa just put a pin in. If picked up from you like me to write down a keyword shaw. I'll remember it but I think so party's ticket. Swing and stuff has gone way way down and I think there are good reasons for that. I don't think it's crazy and I think. Sometimes we lionize people who go back and forth for less of a good reason we should But let me come back to me. Lie Yeah we think it's great right. I knew that I'm gonNA steal at words. It's a great word. Great Word is so like I and is but other than that. I'm into it so some of the book is built on this. I'd like a bigger framework of how to human being's experience identities. Like how do they form what happens and the Super Foundational Research here has done by? Guinan Henry Tosh fell and Rachel maddow view that you know not as often i. I've actually interviewed Rachel Matters. Show us on the show. She did my talk show. Oh we made a lot of this is back in the day. He did us a favor. I would really like the original motto on. You made it weird. I would love to have Rachel maddow on. You made it weird. I bet shoot enjoy as I promise. We'll get to eventually a break from politics. Are we talking about it in a way that no back to Henry? So Henry Toss fell is a Polish Jew born in the twenties. Maybe the teens and leaves for France in the thirties because he can't go to university in Poland because he's Jewish Wilbur to begins he joins out and he's captured by Germans in his a prisoner for his. He is not killed because he's understood is a French prisoner of war not a Polish. If he'd been if it had come out Paul Shoud have been sent to the camps and killed. He gets out a couple years later. War ends his entire families dead and he becomes obsessed and focused on this question of group identity. How DO PEOPLE DEVELOP ENTITY? How do you see people's part of a different group like his job? What did you see judge? I would like to fucking incredible but the Holocaust is obviously not an. It's like my joker point. That's what makes identity so disturbing. It's it's such a shaky thing. You are a French soldier. You don't die so if we knew a different name for the bones and Adams that I'm looking at would kill you. I I hate I hate it. So low you're GONNA hit more after this so great. He GETS INTO THIS IDEA. He becomes interested in this idea of can pinpoint exactly what you need for group identity to take hold and for people to begin treating each other badly because of it and so he starts a series of experiments called the Minimal Group paradigm experiments and the first one is just. It's just amazing. Brings in sixty four boys the same school and he has them sit down and he says. I want you look at this screen of DOTS. Guess how many dots are so. They do the researcher score. Were in like we're we're testing. How good you are guessing dots. There's more than three dots. There's like a lot of blindness. How doubts but enough that it's a tricky guess. Okay like Jelly. Jarring cat with a mouse. So he does that and then when that's over say actually well. We have all your kids here. Do you mind staying for one more experiment. It's not related to the first thing but just for ease of use. We're going to separate you into two groups who are the dot over estimators and the dot under estimators in reality. It's totally random. They're not really separated on this like the researchers didn't care what they did with the dots. Only those cheeky bastard so the next study is just allocating money not to themselves but the other kids and but you know if the other kids are like co dot over estimators or co dot under estimators even though in reality. It's all right and immediately. The kids begin favoring the people who are in their dot group. Despite the fact that it's meaningless group itself built on something called so the idea in this study was to like start with something under the line of Group identity would take hold and then begin adding conditions. He actually was never able to find a line low enough because it happened quickly over then he did another study. This may be wrong. Brings in kids again. Has A book at paintings by Paul. Clearly and someone can did ski. Which painting do you prefer again? They're separated based on painting preference in reality. It's random separation but now they did something else in the money allocation part where they created a a way of allocating the money where you could maximize how much more your fellow painting lovers got over the other painter lovers. But if you did it that way I mean even your people got less. So it's like. Did you care more about giving more to the people who liked their painting or more about just beating the other group as much as you can and it was the latter? It's not enough that dogs no you actually. He has good line. He's like the winning. It's the winning. That's important and it feels like thinking. If feels like thinking it's a winning gratuitous discrimination some some line like that and so then this gets this study has been operative but look at sports right sport if you if you're like. Oh these are kids. Sports is similarly. It is a an. I love the beautiful acts of human excellence at our sports. But people don't go because they love sportsmanship. Actually my wife will sometimes go to sports game and hold up good sportsmanship sign but most people. Don't they get and so yes yes of court. I love sports movies. If you show me a slow motion quarterback throw or whatever but that's not what we're doing. We're blitzed yeah on watery beer and NACHOS and we're screaming for colors. Yes not everybody ought to be clear that I don't a lot of people are the thrill of that and I don't want to. The point actually says in the book. I have a whole chapter about sports. I I love this. I hope. He's areas eight. There was a book came out a couple of jobs. Get neither of us are sporty spelled right. Not that you're stupid but like you don't know enough about sprawl. I was actually doing an interview and I. It's pronounced too key players named other day and the guys get you really. Don't like sports that's hilarious. There was a book that came out. I saw it in a bookstore. It's it's in my book now and the title of it was to hate like this is to be happy forever. That's the best title I've ever heard what is about. It was about the UNC Duke North Carolina College Basketball Rivalry. Wow It's just it's Paul. I'm not sending to this like it's pulling the deepest thing in us. It's like evolutionary capacity to define sense and then compete with another group to find are in grouping compete with the out group and politics and adds onto this not just like random groupings and colors but literal life and death outcomes You know like. Are you going to get health insurance? Are we going to have a draft to go to war? Are we going to do something about climate change so when you add group identity on top of the really super genuine stakes of politics? I mean look. How do people are about look how into sports people are based on much lower stakes? Very little happens to if your team loses again them as counting beans and one of them is is a much more definitive. Yeah but but it is similar. It is it's very primal powerful psychological thing that's easier to feel the policy. It takes work to think about a lot of kinds of policy and I'm a policy journals. But you gotta work at it this stuff it once keys into like. They're the bad guys and we're the good guys right. It doesn't take much at all like it's very easy. That's why in my book. I was fascinated with the moment. We're Johnny Damon becomes a Yankee and comes back to Fenway Park. And we cheer for him. I was like what is going. I have no idea what you just said. Johnny Damon was a red sock then he got traded to the Yankees or he went to the Yankees for a better deal but then they come back to Fenway Park. Which is where the red sox play and the Red Sox fans? You'd think they'd boo because he betrayed them but they cheer which I in. My book is a spiritual book. I'm trying to say this is a moment of mass enlightenment like we're being awakened because we know that he's just playing a game like we're seeing beyond is identity you could also just be like that's Johnny. He hit home runs for us. But you should boo him like He. He fucked your mom. You know what I'm saying like there is intelligence happening even in the masses. Yeah we're not any one thing right these are. We are very very different. Depending on this is a big thing about identity for me that we all have many many identities and depending on which one gets activated is really important and whether or not you see people's in group in our group like we don't hate everybody if every other identity and often times we love people of of other identities and sometimes I'm thinking about things my political identity and sometimes because I'm Californian or Jewish or Vegan or whatever and it's very important to know that you can like work to activate others at a point like oftentimes what I'm doing politics one of the things I try to hold is it I am. I pissed off as I might be getting. I'm a journalist. That's a very important identity to me. I will actively pull that forward. The other things have to go down right now. I need to understand this. I can't I don't have the luxury. Just be mad about it. I remember the night Donald Trump and actually and like I am. I don't think shock people to know that like I was upset about his victory. I felt bad for the country without his bad for people I cared about and I remember a lot of people around me. Kind of caught like people were crying that night. I mean a lot of liberals had very strong emotional reactions on remember having the thought. I don't have time to experience this. I can't experiences right now. It's time for identity. I have to be a journalist. You know that's right. I completely understand. I think playing different roles like I was just thinking I was like just last night. Maybe I was thinking about our interview if I had to talk to another comedian it's similar to a police officer talking to another police officer. There's a way I think maybe we were watching Succession we were and when people negotiate. They're careful to use the right triggering words that let the other person know that you understand them so similarly if I'm talking to a comedian I'm GONNA call them. Bits not jokes and that that puts their shoulders down a little bit. And now we're like relating in a more human level because I'm going like look I'm like you. We share an identity. This is why people my dad wears Red Sox Jersey goes around and looking for other red sox can connect so. There's something sort of lovely about that but I couldn't be more interested in the idea that like you as came on this podcast and the first thing we talked about was like which Azra R- are you summoning like. With whom would you like to talk? That is one of the cornerstones on my thing. Like I catch myself going or vow will catch me. Slipping into my comedian persona. I understand there is genetic hard wiring staff. There's my my father's personality my it's in there but it's really just like a choice to kind of go over here like I got in trouble. You GotTa know it's a choice you can make I at the end of the book called identity. Mindfulness which in politics place is going to be made. Fun Of Because Mindfulness canucks politics. And it's true it mostly cannot but if you're not mindful of it then then you're just an easy mark for manipulation if you're not mindful that identity is something that you have lots of and they get put forward and people are trying to manipulate you. That's exactly right you the more you pay attention anchored to your identity. The more manipulable you are. If you can get me fired up into my mode. Hamady put me in a green room with five other. Put me in a green room. With Krista Leah Bill Burr. Natasha Fuck. Sarah what does have a gale time being old time? He Gay old time. You can't to that one old timey gay old time of being like shut the fuck up you guys. You can't take. We'll get all riled up but the more we're stuck in that corner of our persona the more you can manipulate me and get me to like vote on things that I wouldn't if you greeted me and spoke to me in my fullness. Isn't that kind of what we're talking about. I mean one of the lines identity activates under threat. It is shorter obviously in salty dog in my book. I said when my wife left me I considered buying a red sox hat and then later we've covered how I'm not a sports fan but when you're in trauma nine eleven you want your identity more and I wanted to be like my wife. My ex wife was from Maine. I am from Boston people from Boston. Don't Fuck Cheat Kid. That's fucking main shit. I was looking for anything to other affi- her and go. I'm over here with the Good Boston boys as if people in Boston donors finality in Boston straight. But I was. I was any port in the storm. Yeah and that's what you just said. How did you say activates under threat? So my dad's an immigrant. He came here from Brazil. And I don't think as a lot as I move through the world that I'm the son of an immigrant my I'm Mike in some way like half of me. I guess is a first generation American until the moment you start talking shit about immigrants and then all of a sudden that identity activates. Very fiercely somewhat similarly. I mean my identity. Jewish person is important to me but it isn't one of the primary Lens as on the world. I'm not practicing. And but but if you start getting anti Semitic I feel that identity very intensely and what. Politics is in many ways and particularly online politics. Is this tremendous machine of like identity threats now. I want to be clear about some. Because we're focusing here on the identity part of it because politics has real stakes. This is sometimes the right way to feel like oftentimes people in politics a reason to activating something and you like is because they want to close the border to immigrants. They want to do things that are going to hurt people's and feeling outraged in past wanting to organize against that that that is correct At other times it can be used to manipulate you. So you're getting mad about things you shouldn't care about at all like I. Actually I think like the full version of his story. Which I don't usually tell but did you. You may not have followed this. Do you remember there was a thing about a year ago. With the COVINGTON Catholic high schoolers. There was a purchase on the National Mall. There were some like Catholic high school kids in Maga hats of American Drummer Ivan. I think maybe I have let me tell you where I found out about that story. I was on my first silent meditation retreat and I was in one of those. You get to talk to the teachers for like two minutes fifteen minutes a day and I was in one of those group interviews and one of the teachers were saying sorry. I'm a little riled up like we were just coming from discussing something really terrible happening in politics and I'm a political journalist. I've been very calm for a couple of like. Oh my God something. What has happened there that I don't know. Do I need to get on to help with the coverage or something and I was like what what's happened? Any start explaining the story that there was like a protest on the National Mall. And they're these kids from a high school and they're mean to a guy who's a native American guy but they had Maga hats and as this. I'll look into this when I get out. This doesn't seem to me like a matters at all. Like nobody even got anything more than their feelings. Hurt like people are dying from malaria. But I got out and we were in day four of this story. Everybody was arguing about it. The president had weighed in and it was just pure identity threat like it was white Christian trump supporting teenagers and like native American liberal drumming elder and they always got described that way and like the right felt. These young White Christian. Teenagers were being slammed by the media and treated terribly and the felt like the opposite. But also it just didn't it just was not an important story but it was pure identity. I mean grab a bunch of people's corporate entities their values all of it like put it into a stew and like made it into a viral video that went on twitter and the whole media is talking about it for days and like that's a good example of the way identities can be used us into carrying about things we actively shouldn't care about when they're all these other things happening in the world that are really bad that are not implicating identity and so it's harder for us to care about them at that same time. A lot of people are dying in traffic accidents and like there are things you can do about that or housing California unaffordable like Shit. You can do about that but no like we were all freaking out about this. Little weaponized thing of identity threats that got tossed out through social media and then became so big. They're like well we have to cover it because everybody's talking about it and other president is talking about it and it's like let's piss everybody off for a week no reason other than it's a good drug rages a good drag and it's also immediate friends is line partisanship is a Helluva drug. There you go I was gonNA say one of the challenges as a spiritual person. I'm I'm very interested in you on a silent retreat. I'd love to hear more about that. Is that people are looking for a guaranteed experience. Nice my my sternum POPs. And it's like it's gotten a lot worse than having a kid because I'm always carrying him. Oh Yeah it's bad I my left so I don't recommend my left arm is dead. I my favorite unexpected talk. Converse is like dad injuries. I didn't expect that to be like this. Powerful form conversation. You'd be talking about politics. Are you like but so you have a Kid? What what hurts. Yeah I know. But that's what they mean is I used to get like elective fun. Massages. There's a cheap little place in our neighborhood and now when I go. Oh I'm using my body in ways that I never intended. I pick up a bag of cement seven seven hundred time cement. Yes and then when I sleep. She's often in the bed and so I'm having to contribute in ways to make sure that she is the queen of the bed as she should be. But I'm sleeping in the shape of an anchor sand to make sure that she's okay. What were we saying? Who has a good this show you remember? Oh yeah guaranteed experience. I actually had this idea. Walla was getting a massage. That's a fun little ditty just for me. One of the challenges with spirituality and one of the challenges. I'm hearing in approaching the world in your. Fullness is that we want guaranteed experiences. We want things that work and work quickly and work now. We basically want the four. Loko of emotions and rage is one of the easiest things to flip on and it is sort of fun you exist to use them. Eckhard tollway if you're angry ew exists so all of your existential dread sort of goes away. If you're just sitting quietly as I imagine you were you. You're faced with hard questions. Like what is all of this? Who Am I? What is reality? But if we're angry were like my name's Dave I'm from Baltimore. I like Fried Chicken. Those kids in those hats were given a raw deal. Or whichever side of you fall on so similarly that's why I think things like LSD and stuff can be useful especially in our culture because they are guaranteed experiences that do mirror what it's like to be in a cave for six months in India like it can it can give you the same sort of feeling but for the Western audience. The reason people like those experience those experiences is it also. It's a reminder of how thin all that I'm Dave I like Fried Chicken. It's like now we're in the zone a couple micrograms of something on a piece of paper. Yeah like that's it for you. Yup by you're not you anymore like that was how thin it was. That was how that's why we have little there was. That's why we're looking at the news stories to get angry again to remember who you are. That's why it's every world series every election everything we're just going like. Please give me me back and you know it's I don't even think we do like it. People we like to not like it. There is an addiction to intensity that we feel and I don't even want speaker everybody but certainly that I feel it is pretty separate from even like or dislike something that I've had to face a little bit more about myself over the past couple years. Is that my actual preferences are not what I thought. They were much happier living much quieter life than I believe that Asia for me we are sometimes the worst at getting what we need with the worst at it. But it's really hard like what we read a poll of the brightness of like feeling intensely and then you're shot I mean people don't the weirdest thing but being on twitter and politics twitter which I'm in and and have very complicated feelings about is it. Everybody agrees they don't like it. Almost everybody agrees that they don't like the emotional tenor of it most of the time. But you find yourself coming back to it sometimes because you know occasionally you do like pull the slot machine and you get something wonderful out of it. That's part of it. The variable rewards is Tristan Harris. Likes to say but then the other thing that they're just ease there's just a guaranteed intensity there and sometimes it's just hard to set. I understand my phone makes me sad. I tweet from my phone. My friend Pat Walsh. Had this great line where he said. I gotTa take a break from drinking. I say and look down and I'm pouring a drink. Yeah like we're just so bad at what we actually need. I know talk about Judaism just because I got it from you guys a Sabbath. A day without a phone is the greatest life AC. I think there's ever been actually had a friend that was like I think this is why there's so many Jewish doctors and genius and lawyers. It's because like it's in their DNA. They've learned to take one day to not work. I know that's a little bit racially questionable. I I think you're overstating how observant. Many of us are hilarious. I don't want to burst a bubble too much but not not such high Sabbath observation as he was. I completely agree. It's painting with too broad a brush. But he was saying that's how much he believes personally. Sabbath one our brains need and it's what? We don't know that we need have you done. Lsd Yes and what was that like? Where were you? How old were you? I? It's funny I was thinking about whether or not end up telling some version of the story. This was not I was in this case. More botanically overwhelmed but But I had one like very rough experience for part of the way I'd be grounded. Overwhelmed was a part of the way I read grounded was I. I was listening to your episode of disease. Sorry a really a moment when I really needed just some friendly voices in my ear shit. Yes tell me. The story That one's got too many parts to it. I don't agree. Where were you? I was in a tent. In cert- No was a lush forest. He plays full of spiders full of spiders full of spiders. That you didn't know about until you know I knew about that but it was at that point like being in the end was better than being outside of the tent and despite is going to be. They're having this experience with me. Holy Shit cliche bad trip. Don't feel that strongly against by the really nice in terms of the the bigger psychedelics question. What he does such as I've been nominated boring dad unfortunately but fortunately in other ways but the experience of that mostly for me has been a like an actual identity breaking this sense of very powerful sense that the firmness the firmness with which I understood needs to be me was just pure illusion ridiculous. Yeah and this stuff goes away really really fast and really easily right and just knowing that just knowing that is true about myself all you need is actually a lot. That's exactly we could tell stories. That's not the point. That's why I've said this many times. People are confused about the profundity of psychedelics. And I am I guess. It's not what you see. It's not what the spiders said or didn't say to you through the wall that you saw that with which you see you see the the lowest level of your identity functioning. Everything goes away and yet you're still there. And that is the mystery of the universe. I will tell you about my favorite. I can't believe back I can't believe season you back. I was in so far gone that I couldn't figure out it. Put on podcast. I was just visually very overwhelmed but I this one experience where I got very confused about who I was or wasn't and one of the things I remember thinking which is like my real sh- right like this is what our he comes back from these experiences thinking but like the sense of actually knowing it is different but how much energy goes in to the constant work to police the boundaries between the set of stuff that has been defined as me and all the other stuff Obviously it used to be that stuff and one day. We'll be that stuff but the amount of energy like I'm consuming plants and drinking water and like taking care. Thanks to just like keep up this idea that my stuff is different than all the other stuff. It's just ridiculous and so obviously true. Yeah like so obviously true on some level it was all just the same stuff. I love what you're saying that's like I've never forgotten it. I mean this is when I was much younger but it it just. It's hard when you've it. Just like alters your sense of the whole thing a little bit it makes all it adds a little bit of ridiculousness into a tight. Love what you're saying if we were youtube clip show. That would have been the youtube along the way that I calmed myself down. I just worked the past three weekend. So I've been sorta like talk about comedian mode. I go into like a nocturnal mode as well and then I'm coming back and now I'm trying to go to bed at ten. So he can get up with the baby at five from time to time. I JUST WANNA shout out that valve as it as well So now I'm trying to go to bed earlier than I want to. And stuck SORTA with my thoughts and you're anxious. Repetitive thoughts and those thoughts are basically also sort of working. This like on agreed upon agenda to reaffirm. Your Shit matters your opinions madder and your feelings and your and your thoughts are the most important thing in the world and if I can share one thing which have shared a million on this pod but I'll share it a million more Eckhart totally says to watch your thoughts and it's really trippy. But it's really. You don't need to do too much study if you can do this. If you can watch your thoughts impartially meaning you have the fucked up weird. Worst CASE SCENARIO THOUGHT GOES BY. Then you have the Weird Ego Eric. Glory thought goes by. Here's the repetitive anxiety about that business meeting you have. Here's how's it going to go with as if you could just sit there and watch it without judging it because it echoed totally says if you start having opinions about your thoughts while you're trying to observe your thoughts. He goes the thinkers. Just come in the back door and it split itself in two and now it's thinking about its thoughts which is a great trick that because it wants you to do this. For some reason we'll cabinets is a Buddhist teacher son of John Cabot. I went to a dark gave once and is really really brilliant thoughtful guy and I remember him saying that if the way these the way this kind of thinking works worrying about tomorrow right worrying about what's GonNa Happen to the meeting. If somebody gave you a vr rig and put it on you and began seeing this whole thing. Play out where you like. You were at the meeting and it went bad and you were prepared and everybody and you take like that was. That was nuts. That was crazy. Then it happens in your head and you're like Oh shit. Yeah right the difference between having some separation from it recognizing some kind of external imagery machine if you knew inside of it. That's EXAC whole. I love that distinction. It's all been wrapped up in what you just said and to tie it back to how I introduced it. That's where my anxiety goes. Away is in non resistance you go. There's my anxiety you're just looking at. It doesn't work that well. You know it's not easy. It takes me an hour to hour and I might be lying awake but it's different instead of like a heart Jack because you have to not even judge your inability to fall back asleep you have to not even judge your inability to stop worrying you. Just go it's like looking at a river from above and your anxiety is just another leaf on that river. But you can't judge it you go there. It is Pete's being pete the VR's playing what the VR's playing but you need to go like that's not me but we've all been possessed by the thinking brain in thinking that that's all we are. I'm a super obsessive thinker. I it's a very so a Lotta Lotta stuff here. One is that I got. I got developed a much more serious meditation practice over the last like what's called six years and I did it initially because I wanted to deal with stress from starting box running that and in growing it and everything really hard and it didn't help my stress at all. What it did was a little bit in the way that psychedelics can was it actually but in in a very different way Showed me how little control over my own mind that was shocking to me and a and a bit disturbing so little capacity. That's what I was talking. We say what I think but you might as well say like I beat my heart or I brave. It's like you don't but so here's the next step of this happened at that. Same celebration retreat. I talked about earlier I was there and I had amazing experience there and I really do recommend people if they feel something want to try to try it and we can talk about the other beautiful parts of it but I did have a couple of loops that kept replaying and I was so frustrated by them. Not Angry at myself I just your was is like day three or four like I felt much slower. Calmer brighter that feeling of like bright mind was really cool and I was in one of the meetings with the teachers and giving this whole sort of thought thinks themselves frustrated. Riff and you know saying that. It felt like I had the suburb. I was like my head was the company and there was some bureaucracy that was still running old like running an old product that we decided to move on from but I couldn't get them to stop reading the subroutine and it was such a good ref and people liked it and they laughed and the teachers like yeah. It sounds like you've decided to thank those thoughts. You keep thinking or not really you. Like what if he just decided they were like what if you didn't keep trying to resist them and it was all at once a really amazing and it was a weird thing. Deepen the retreat where I had a lot more ability to play with my own mind like I felt much more capable of like turning around how I thought about something or playing with the kind of meditation because like the like it was a lot. You're just much more in that space and I. It left me like really not knowing what to think about it though right it went a little bit from the thoughts. Think themselves to well that that's a way of getting very frustrated at your thoughts right. I have no control over this. I hate things I have no control over. I know basically no control over anything but I still hate it and then from this other direction of well maybe the thoughts and can themselves were there for a reason right. Like that's the thing that keeps you say for and it's not by any means gone away like I'm still a pretty obsessive thinker and I wish I could put things down sometimes I can't but it is. I don't know I like switch back and forth a lot between that issue of I can't control my own mind and that's terrifying versus. I'm not supposed to be able to control my own mind like any more than I am controlling my own bio right like they're all just doing stuff. Yeah and I'm some emergent property of that stuff like what I am is actually a hard thing to even locate and yet like. I'm clearly here doing this. Podcast with you and I wrote a book. That isn't about any of these things and is being sold in a very weird way right now and so here. We are yeah. No I've heard that flip before too. I spiritual teachers can sort of have it both ways which is sort of fun and it feels a little bit like a hedge maze where we can see which which one's going to get you there. Do you want to yield and say of course I am spirit and to put it in spiritual terms? You have to own both so Alan Watts. Who's my homeboy? Told my homeboy Ramdas. He said He has his name. Is Richard Richard you to attach to emptiness and it blew. Rhonda's his mind. It was one of those changing things where it's like you Kabeer road. I believe it was career. It's either Kabeer Hafeez. I walked through the market. But I'm not a purchaser so you can go through the story of Ezra and not buy into it but you're still in the market you know what I'm saying? That is the tension. Of course. That's why like it's like saying I'm not in the space suit. I am in the space suit. I'm in the Pete Program and that's not a fly. It's a very Manana volant universe. If I'm like this is just a weird trap that I'm in or we can look at it I know you're not an optimist but with the bend towards benevolence and being like. Yeah I'm here to either play or learn or experience. Whatever whatever you WANNA say what? It's like to be Pete so if I'm pushing away Pete and I refuse his lessons and I say even Pete's bad shit is all just missed. It's all vapor. It's all nothing I'm really just consciousness. Then you are sort of missing out on the point of being pete so you have to find that balance between going. I know I'm really and I'm saying that. This is my perspective. I believe myself to be the loving consciousness. That is watching the all this stuff unfold impartially. It's just a passing show and yet the passing show is not a flaw. Because it's happening. Yeah and so frustrating during particularly I hear from Buddhist teachers because I read a lot of like Buddhist and Taoist philosophy and you'll hear a question asked or internally to these things posed and they'll just come out with saying like the exact opposite thing that you thought everybody was saying and I. It took me a long time to realize that it's that I put this into play because I still like read the stuff. But you can't think your way through it that's right and so when you try to when you try to re would you try to put it in more directly literal terms right if you're reading a book about Buddhist Philosophy. You're just going to be reading a very coarsened thing because as far as I can tell a lot of these are some very lionised of a lot of these are some like a new experience. You have to have. That's right. They're not a like an idea. It's not speak and what's fucking craft. Beer just identity is identity activates under threat. That's much shorter version of law. That's right by long. Riff know my long ref. I've been the you've been the one with the tasty little morsels but like knowing that we can't think about it is a thought that can help us get to it. Which is crazy but like the idea of being attached to enlightenment or attached to that place that you were in at least partially during your silent retreat. We have the bright mind. And you had the clarity to be like it's all stuff I'm defending. I'm defending a mountain of garbage. Basically we can get there through thoughts. I believe called. Yana yogurts using the mind to beat the mind. And of course. That's very appealing to people like you and I like to communicate and read and talk But it's just what I do and and isn't that fun. Look at Pete Cow. That's what I like about your view on this. So that kind of isn't I once went to a workshop retrea kind of thing with a Buddha Zen teacher named Paul Haller who's really brilliant and his whole thing that I've just I I think about all the time is he's saying you know you think about something just at the end just append said so this is not so is that so. I loved that because it wasn't like your thought is wrong. And you shouldn't have it like stop thinking thinking a suffering right. It was just is that so but maybe it is could be so being attached to it just light on attachment being attached to attachment. It's all not it. It's the the enlightened person seems to be the person that's just like Osso there there it is. It's what's happening. That's what I like. He told a Told a story that I just love and I'll probably put your trend. Remember it but you know you don't WanNa be attached to the original. What's happening tells the story. This is the only thing that's happening right now Apparently an old I. I did find this. It's an old temporal but so There's a zen monk coup or monk who lives on the outside of the village and one day. The fisherman's daughter. Oh you do. I'm going to Chime in. I'm going to do you'll you'll you`ll? You'll tell better than I do. So fisherman's daughter who was having an affair with the shopkeeper. Whatever gets pregnant and people come and say you know who's a father and she says it's the it's already said it'd be like Russia's at him and his furious and say like you you father this child how dare you and you just just. Yeah I said well you have to take care of it and so like this is that. So they give the cat and goes around and his alms begging and he asks for alms for him in the kid and And then eventually. The woman overcome by guilt confesses and it was a shop. Keep and everybody comes to him and says Oh my God you're such a holy man so wonderfully you just took this child without. You're a saint and it is. That's right that's the only detail. I would have included in the version that I heard was that the kid was like thirteen when when she confessed. So she he he was even unattached. It's almost scary and attachment. He let the kid go back and as much as I like that story. I definitely not live my life the way. Yeah no I know about that whole story. I have is that so feeling. But it's an it's worth thinking about. There's a great line in a the Dow only got anything out of in the last couple of years but just like what I think about all the time what different success or failure and just sometimes just clear difference but sometimes you're totally wrong about which is good for you it goes back to our Twitter makes us unhappy. Ramdas has his great line where he's like you need to ask yourself meeting your needs. Make you happier the not meeting needs. Of course we're not talking about basic human needs but like I just got this new espresso machine and I was so embarrassed as I was watching my thoughts last night that I was like the steam won't turn on and I spent so much time and again I was proud of myself to watch it but I was like this is the workings of a madman. Like clearly my brain just wants to I would say wants to exist but we could also just make more simpsons. It just wants to worry. That's one of the things around asset to me as he points at his head. You're worrying about something and you're like I do this do that. What about this? What about that? And he pointed at his head and he just goes entertainment. Because you couldn't talk very much so he nailed it just points brain goes and I thought of that last night I was like this deem on your Espresso Machine. Like what the fuck are you doing? Your entertaining yourself. You're jerking off. You're whistling in the dark. Whatever you want to say it's just nonsense and letting it go so the monk is obviously an extreme example and the ego would like us to say well. We can't do that. I can't do that. Someone can't come and say Leila's actually the son of the barber in the bar. I I'm not going to go so I'm not there right and only do it for universal healthcare. Strong view on what we should do that. Absolutely not and but there are moments where. Peden Ezra can go Osso or. It's what's happening. There's another version of a similar sentiment that I am really going to butcher because I've only heard it once but it's Alan Watts tells the story. It's another Dallas Story. I believe whereas story mix them up a lot About like it's like a guy and he's a farmer and and he gets like seven horses show up one day and everyone's like what good luck and then one of the horses like get startled and kicks him and breaks his legs and he's like what bad luck and the guy keeps going like. Is it basically like what good luck? And he goes is it is it and because he was in the hospital with his broken legs like going to make my own version. A meteorite hits his farm and they go what good luck you were in the hospital. Exact is it and basically you can improvise your own version of the story. But it was like everything is just what's happening to the Taoist to the to the pure perspective from the outside like the stories and movies fade out and we go happily ever after but really everything. Is Everything everything is can be as potential. It's one of the places has moved me in my own work is. There are a bunch of things where I feel pretty uncertain in that exact way of. Will this be good or not right? I think it will but I think it will. But how could you possibly know and there are things where I'm sure it would be good. I mean one reason. I think I've become more committed to veganism and animal rights issues is. I'm just I am sure as I am about. Anything that torturing fewer chickens would be good. Yeah like we could feed people other ways. We don't torture so many animals whereas a bunch of other stuff that I used to feel very strongly about like. How do we tax capital gains? I still views on but I said not exactly sure and I don't know I think there was some things in life that you can be pretty sure you're reducing suffering right and a lot of things in life that have that dynamic that you're talking about with the horses I've had. This is very true in your own life. I mean my God the question of whether or not something is going to be good for about whether or not a promotion is GonNa make your life better or worse like how right we are about that stuff. Is Tara terrible like we're here in l. A? I don't get the sense. Most super famous people are incredibly happy. Now it doesn't look great. No hard you fight to get there and then fight to not be knocked off the perch. So that's what Thomas Merton says you. You've climbed a ladder and it was against the wrong wall. I mean that's exactly what's going on. I'm telling you that somebody who I'd like to think I'm climbing several different ladders. One of them I know. Don't believe the hype. Don't believe it like play it but it's not gonNA work and I've had big highs and I've had big lows. That's why in my book. I was very happy to report that the second season of my TV show was like one of the darkest depressive times of my life not because of the TV show but specifically because the TV show isn't the cure that you think it is look to people who win the lottery for other examples of this look to people who like have all their dreams come true when Michael Jordan started playing baseball. I know we're not sports people that was like of course it's never there it's never there. That's a great example. The greatest basketball player in the world but it does dad. Love me like that's why we were so drawn to that it was a modern day. Parable of like you can have all the money in the world and guess what you know. What in the spiritual community people say? When someone's rich and famous they go heavy Karma. 'cause that's a fucking and I'm not Super Richard Super famous but I'm like I deal with that Karma when you have and I watched vow val was a teacher before we met and now she doesn't have to do that and I'm watching her deal with the new problems I can't tell you. How many multi billionaire whatever super successful people that? I know that are obsessed with the recycling obsessed with recycling. It is a trend that I have. Because guess what you need a problem and you need a cause and there's something wrong if you got that high the ladder. That's because you've got in very used to thinking about problems. Yeah that's probably true right. You've intensively trained yourself. That's right now you are now. I mean I felt that happened to me. Actually where you got like. That intensity doesn't go away. That's so let's TAP David. I this whole more compassionate was like look. They're not happy. And you're like no which they learn to live is now playing. Stop thinking because I my whole life. I got out of whatever I wanted to get out of by overthinking. And now I'm like stopover thinking it's like you your success is because of your neuroses and now you're like please go away neurosis really and I heard you doing this. We should be like thank universities. You've protected me. And you've you've given me a career and alive and functioning brain but it's hard to send them off like Harry in the Henderson. Become much more conscious of as I've gotten older and I saw it myself but I see it in others to but the good of everybody is also about of everybody. It's always gonNA be the same for people you know. You're smart person who thinks a lot the things that you can't turn it off. I remember I listen the interview with Joe Rogan and that went viral because Elon. Musk join or whatever which is why I like to give you the pigs fly me od is here on the that won't even know anyway the towed one Oh Yeah Yeah. Yeah scrape it off the glass It's in it's in the pollens and What was I talking about? I'm so sorry you were saying. We were talking about recycling and then row sees the good everybody. You learned MOSK. Musk so you on. Musk was all. That was great. So in that interview interview with him is actually. I think pretty interesting. And in the middle of it at some point Rogan says to him something like Van. It must be awesome to be you like just like in a year coming up with cool inventions and Dayton grimes or whatever is the guy who's a comedian. I I've done Rogan. I do a podcast. I'm in my pajamas right now. Joe Rogan's looking pretty good deal on. Mike. I'm sure it's just as back. You can't turn it off. Yeah and he just says it's a couple of times looking really sad because you can see it on the Youtube. He says I can't stop thinking about these things. I can't turn this part of me off like a looks good from the outside but I can't turn it off. Yeah and it was not said like if you watch that in our view like Elon. Musk is a sad person. But you think it's always been like he. Can you always been kind of obviously? Go back this rolling stone profiled him and you just he comes off very lonely but I just remember looking about him being like. I'm sure you can't I can't I'm not you and I remember when I had Dr Katz. Jonathan cats on my podcast. We were talking about this phenomenon of of not being able to turn it off and the weird twist is. Would you have it any other way? And I think like I'm very interested in like I have an APP and it can turn off the over analytical part of your brain do you turn it on. Maybe we can do it on a timer. I'm sure you'd like a few hours but by and large I bet you would like to be Elon. Musk most of the time I will. This is the old right. The thing about you gotta wish and it's always the wish comes true right. That's how that's was like. How many parables do we need? Where the devils like I'll give you that you can be the best player in the world. We need to realize sorry to preach we already have it because we already are at and everything else is ancillary. It's secondary it's it's just a game and that's really helpful to remember you are at. You are aware this is it. I people say this that I was reading the day about the debate between the people who think that to be able to experience more non duality you have to really work at it versus it. Needs to be effortless and I just loved it. That's a debate. That's later that you are at. It's right there versus no. This is really hard to do. It's why most people do not experience it and experience it easily. I'm like of course like we can't even agree. Are you working at her family? That is why I'm like. It's not an error. That is funny. That is the cosmic joke the divine dance and it's hilarious. It's a joke. We played part of the third patriarch of Zen which I love and they go. The great way is not hard nor is it difficult. I think that's so essentially it goes like if you're having that debate you've lost it. The answer is quietly looking at a flower. The answer is trying to find the space in between the words that I'm sharing with you. Now it's in the I feel I feel like this is one of those things where it's only that way from the other side. I hear what you're saying so in all these different algae on this. There's a beautiful line. 'cause I do explanatory journalism work? It may be foward-facing men of someone but I forget who it was exactly but talked about but Howard five minute. Somebody discuss this idea that they don't want what is on this side of what was it. Sorry I'm getting the so wrong. That they basically made this argument that they want they would give their life. They would give their life for the simplicity on the other side of complexity not the simplicity on this side of complexity your simplicity on that side of complexity. Everybody that listens to this. Podcast is going to know that. I'm going to say given the choice. Between the journey and the destination the EGO will always choose the journey. You don't and I quote this all the time the first two waking I forget who said it. Forgive me. But they're they're they're in line they don't care the first step is realizing you don't want to wake up. That is the first thing when when I'm saying that this is another great ramdas quote. He goes if I know all this. I should be enlightened. He would say that late in life he was like. I know everything I it's it's been explained to me. What am I doing still here and someone said to him. You'RE IN SCHOOL. Take the curriculum. That's when you get into the place where it's not an error and there's stuff in the Bible and other holy texts where they're just like this is how it works. You hit your head against the wall over and over and over and then one day because of your willingness and your surrender this is what's called grace and a lot of different friends it just clicks it. Hits you not by your merit or your search you. It just happens and the enlightened people that I've come across and studied that seems to be their experience and it usually comes from a night in a tent with spiders. I'm using your example to say it comes through some as Saint John of the Cross Ed dark night of the soul. It comes to great suffering. Great doubt that's why. I think it's so weird. That doubt has become the antithesis of faith. Which is really faith is supposed to be a comfort ability with being uncertain when really we've made it into absolute rock steady certitude and doubt is the enemy of it is the dance partner in faith people of faith. They're supposed to be comfortable in their doubt knowing that their forces and I don't mean angels and stuff. I'm just saying there's something going on that. We do not know what that is. People in my side of things believe are pulling you towards those things like you are making this micro progress that you can't even understand and I'm hoping man I have to. I'm hoping one day it clicks and then I'm also aware that the day that I die will be another day just like today where I have to wake up and as I'm opening the curtains holding my baby I go. Yes yes yes yes. Let's say yes to today. Yes to yes to the pain. Yes to the doubt. Yes to the Iowa caucus or whenever the fuck is going on. Yes poorly yes. That's what I mean. That's where we are today but I'm like can we say yes to it. Meaning I'd like to wake up and just be like a bird or a flower but I so far for forty straight years. I've woken up as Pete. He's a little bit better. That feels rabbinical. The two ladders. I'm always saying it's the guy that's still moving. It doesn't matter how high you are. Are you still moving forward that is the more virtuous person according to the rabbi? It's not the guy that's higher. The that's loads. Whoever is still making that little progress and using your doubt in your uncertainty as have tea with it and can dance with it. I know nothing of weakening but sometimes Around these sorts of discussions I think about eight to play video games. A Lot I used to love him. What was your game and all kinds of games but in this period I'm thinking about streetfighter. Yes and your guy playing street fighter you feel like a Blanca. No guile a lot very American. I played a lot of Chun Li because she had that cool. He'll tap thing. Yep but that said I remember as you'd start a video game you'd always go through this same thing where you basically started as a button Masher. He didn't want to play it. And you could win a lot that way and I always remember when you start laying low roundhouse exactly the whole game with them you as you started learning you would get worse. You have this kind of valley of now. You're trying to do things and failing. Yeah and then if you persevere through the valley you were good at the game effortlessly yeah right. It was a matter it was just a pure like the synapses fire. And you do the six part Combo or whatever. It was always felt that that was a good metaphor for a lot of things in life. Where in some ways? It's harder when you're working at it. Scared me a lot of these things. Get a lot harder when you start working at them. And that's Super Demo- discouraging. Yeah right you're actually okay with us and a working at it now all of a sudden you realize you can't bring fine but you can't watch ten. Brasco by you are killing me. Because it's a ritchie roar. Point that I love. He's like a spiritual journey isn't about learning. It's about on learning so one of my favorite things that Jesus was reported as I was that about becoming like little children like that little children so you have an eleven month old baby. That was a very profound spiritual experience for me because she doesn't have what you're talking about in your book. She doesn't have a political party. She's she's not even aware of her her gender or race or location or anything and yet she is so that is how I interpret that as we're grown people so born again just got so fucking ruined I know I. I'm aware like you say I'm born again. Which maybe it can still be beautiful but often it just means like look out this person's got the fervor of a new convert and they're going to be weird doctor at a party but the idea of being born again becoming a child again beginner's mind is. What a Buddhist would say. There's there's more less politically charge ways of putting it but returning to a state of simple wonder and presence that kids have that unlearn. I want I would love. I'm in the process of trying to unlearn. And I've said this a million but one of my mantras that I say all all day is when I catch myself being rigid or or having preferences or noticing patterns just constantly noticing patterns the patterns that my brain thinks they're correct. You're so stupid. The example I always use as my father knew one fire chief that he saw not working on a Tuesday and my father would always be like fire. Chiefs have a lot of time off. And I'm like I do that too. I see one fire chief on Tuesday and I go. They get a lot of time. I don't know whenever I catch myself doing that. Which is every single fucking day. I just go. I'm willing meaning. Pete can't do it. My brain can't do it. My efforts can't earn it but the same thing that set this into motion and thing is too limiting the same this that set this into motion. Consider this an empty slot. I'm trying to make the slot is empty as it can be for the next evolution of my consciousness. I can't get there dude. I'm like I feel like around us the things that I've read. I should be there. Go for a walk with me and I'll go like looking at girls. She's got hoop earrings. She's probably a doozy or doozy. I mean like a Ditz. What an idiot. I'm an idiot but I'm willing. That's all I can do. Richard Roy is always saying surrender in humility are the cornerstones of faith. It doesn't matter what you believe doesn't matter the thoughts that you carry around in your head the identity of your sect of your religion patience and humility and way that the truth comes to us through pain and say that I struggle a lot with how this stuff maps onto political change right. This is where I have a lot. You politics backup just said I was GonNa ask you lost your virginity. You brought it back to the old red and blue. You are assuming I've lost my virginity. GotTa unlearn these. Yeah I love it. it just. It's hard to and I know people do this work. And you know there's Technology Han. Who is nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by Martin Luther King and I read all this? I like I try to understand it. But this question of x one acceptance loosely holding things and recognizing the complexity. And you don't know and then on the other hand sure seems like a. Lotta Shit is wrong and it does require a certain you mean in the world were in the world it does require certain certitude to work with it it does require an actual saying at a certain point like this is wrong like we are going to fight. It tried to make it better and it just does seem it is a tricky thing politics often. It is a very very very difficult thing to hold to some of the values and habits of mind that I believe pretty deeply in the spiritual side of myself are the correct ones to move through the world with and also handle the political world with its dichotomies. And it's you know they're artists are yeah. Trolley feels like holding Straw. And then you have to go to the banquet. Were there serving steak or I think about Like the wisdom or the message encoded in it so many spiritual masters. The way they practice or spirituality is through a lot of withdrawal from the world right now. Many of them there are many of course who do it. Through a deep embodiment and work in the world But I always wonder about people who are saying some other like the way to the way to do this. Be Out you know. Be not talking to anybody for six months at a time. And like what that actually says about what it means to be in a world where you're not. GonNa get people healthcare. You're not GONNA do this by talking to people for six months at a time it's A. It's a tricky space to walk through. Well that's why I think it's important to have examples like Buddha and Christ's that are like they had their incubation period. They had their time in the desert. They both Buddha. And Christ had. They're like forty days in the desert or the story but then they enter into the arena. Yeah I think that's super important and I mean Christ was crucified largely for political reasons. I mean he was threatening the Roman government with a spiritual idea. But you know you go around saying like this. Money doesn't mean. Shit and like the image of Caesar doesn't Mean Shit you know people are going to get power is going to become upset. Money GETS UPSET. But I'm with you. That is something that I deal with all the time and clearly. I'm not a person that wants to retreat. Like you stay still as it sounds I. I feel like being a creative person in creating steph telling stories. Telling jokes is a way of participating in the world and of course being active politically is a huge part of that. I mean Ramdas is right up there they used to. This is the sixty seventy sixty seventies when nuclear power was like a big thing and and and Vietnam and all that stuff and they would protest. Their big thing was like. Don't get lost in the the. Hey don't don't lose yourself almost back to what we were saying earlier getting lost in your identity and thinking that your identity as a liberal. Hippie is really fucking important so they would have meetings for the save a foundation savers spirit award for like helping and they wouldn't talk about serious things without wearing Groucho Marx glasses and it was a way of saying like let's not take ourselves too seriously because as soon as we are capital. P. People Capital H. Helping like we start to believe our own shit so the way that they would protest is they would actually try and do it lovingly which I even as I'm saying that it sounds so steam cleaned in bullshit and stupid but I do. Kinda sometimes think that can be missing from the conversation. Can we have compassion for the other side? Can we see that? We're protesting against another aspect of ourselves. Yeah or even. If it's not ourselves I mean the flip of this right is that it's easy to dismiss the efforts to keep yourself a little bit detached but then you look at what it means to have that kind of very intense attachment and what it does to people in the political political space and what it tends to do to people is that it makes capable of persuasion. Because they're so locked into who they are and he says on twitter all the time that all they want to do and can do is tell other people how wrong they are and like draw the boundaries really sharply and we just know from reams of social science. That you can't persuade anybody that way Like as soon as you become a threat to somebody else they are never going to listen to you. That's right and so one of the things that I struggle with a lot right now and I know I suspect politics but it's a different type of Baltic usually usually get to talk about but I struggle with what seems to me to be an almost anti-politics form of politics where people are not trying to figure out how to build a bridge to somebody such they can reach them so they can convince them. Enlist them find a point. Even if you don't agree you can work together. They're like trying to burn bridges to people to explain like those are the people who are not on our side. They're not in our group. They're not part of our identity and we will not work with them and you can't even like say. Nice word about them because if so that means endorsing everything they've ever said including the worst five things ever said and so like on the one hand you can't be too so pulled back that you're not actually participating in trying to make the world a better place and on the other hand. I often think that the certainly like the aesthetic. And the impulse of getting so deep in your uncertitude that you're certain who's right and who's wrong and that the wrong or the evil even whether or not it's true. It's deeply unhelpful. Yeah there's no politics at work that way in the long run. I have a hard time even doing this on this podcast even though this is not a political podcast but it is a thought experiment. Podcast I get nervous not a political person like I said I give money to Bernie. It is not going to be trending on twitter that Pete Holmes Endorses Bernie Sanders. That is not a story. It's and I'm happy to be in that shadow part of this conversation. I don't want the spotlight. Now that being said when I say things like if I was raised in I can't even think of a state let's just say. Kansas and I was an hour from the police. I'd have a shock. You know what I'm saying like even saying that like Chapelle kind of touched that when he has this farm and Ohio. And you're in the city. I tried to do this bit about anti gun. But I'm not entirely anti-gun because if someone broke into my house I call the COPS. And what does a cop but an uber driver with a gun? I'm not saying I'm not trying to diminish their role saying I understand what you're doing you have a guy. Can you come over? I don't want the moral load. Can you do it? And then I've been doing the bid on state. I had to stop doing it because I could just tell either. They liked it in the wrong way or they didn't like it in the wrong way but nobody could hear as soon as I said gun as soon as I said I'm anti-gun but I'm not entirely anti-gun I could feel people just go remembering the shooting or Which is in Nashville? Maybe there's some conceal carries in the room. That aren't enjoying it. I don't know I can't call it but I knew that it was even just kind of experimenting with the idea that even though I'm anti-gun my taxes pay for a lot of guns that are shooting a lot of people in foreign soil. That's not anti-gun and I call cops and they have guns you got but I'm saying how are you with those experiments when when we talk about immigration right. I hate what's happening. I'm against a wall. Kids in cages is very close. It's it is the top of the list kids dying of dehydration. What the fuck is going on? I'm going to be very much hoping that. That comes up in appointed way in defense of our country because it's a fucking embarrassment and it's a travesty right. I do go like well. What are the people that are saying? We need a wall thinking and even saying this. I'm like oh I'm worried you hear like NPR sometimes as an okay job talking about towns where like so many immigrants come in town start feel their identity starts to be threatened right. I'm trying to understand. How are you with understanding the other side of the issues? I mean I like to think I'm good at it. Yeah it's my job. What what is the other side of? I WANNA wall. You'd be a guy who wants the wall. I have a lot. I will say a lot about this. And about demographic change read a book I'm just kidding. I'm getting to be fair. That's the book is called why? Why were polarized polarized? Yeah it is like one of the deepest forms of political reaction. People have like in every society that this feels like. It's changing and I don't like it and we will be put on that and a lot of intellectuals ation we put on that and in politics particularly under the immigration issue will end up having these debates about do immigrants lower native born workers wages. Okay don't but like maybe they lower the wages just of white college dropouts and take you realize that it's sort of point. We're not really talking about wages. Were people are finding ways to justify that they instinctually. Don't feel good about what's happening and we actually don't have good ways even discuss that even though it's an extraordinarily Dow dot back accounting dot. Yeah it's back to cutting dots but it's also just very deep in the book. I very sympathetic account of what Mitch. Mcconnell did stopping Merrick Garland and you just. I don't think you can do politics. Well I have this view so I'm not a journalist who comes from like what you call like the objective standpoint which. I don't really believe it was a thing but my view is it in order to be able to take the positions. I take you to be able to argue the other position as well as its best. People can argue which means I have to be able to inhabit it and so a lot of like my podcast work is about. I bring blonde understand their mental models of the world. Like how do you see this and so I can spin up my little simulations of people? I don't agree with like in my head but like how would they see it and if you can't do that I don't WanNa see you cannot views you can. I mean it's a free country can do what you want but you. You really don't know if you can reject that now like on the Immigration Issue. That gives me a lot of hope. The way that's that was the answer that I was really hoping you would say that you are free and that you feel free to say. Let's become an expert in the other side. Oh yeah we're just counting DOTS BAD. I in order to do that. I have to occupy the journalist identity and I do recognize. I don't think it's wrong. People who say that they with a lot of fear and they're worried about what they can say like. There are certain things that I like would be very careful about how I touched in said it and I also don't by the way think that's wrong to have to take care. Yeah but yeah. I think that there is not nearly enough premium on understanding. I will but you can talk yourself like you can talk yourself in every position in this argument what I will say is that one place. I think people have a lot of correct frustration and it's not well described in. This argument is that it's only some perspective to get a tremendous amount of work to understand them sympathetically. And so there's like this huge effort to sympathetically understand the downscale white trump voter and so like African American Like writers appointed a Lotta Times. That did not go into understanding. Voters who supported Louis Farrakhan like not for president because the Gaza Person. Yeah that's interesting. That who we as soon as the white man. We're kind of like right. It'd be you look at the. Crackdown on opioids. Yes that's right. The crack epidemic. It was cultural pathology and it was a name and a punchline. And then opioids. Kit Is Violet on that we say Yeah. I see it on facebook. I'm like how is that not a slur that we're just kind of like what would you say that? I think it is really important to have not just real empathy but argumentative and intellectual empathy to be able to see like where the other side of someone is coming from but to also be careful to note. Who Do you have that foreign? Who Don't you know what we're doing to kill a mockingbird I just saw it on Broadway at Hera aired Sorkin One. Yes is it good? It was dope and it was exactly this. So Ed Harris is. I'm forgetting his name. Atticus Finch and atticus finch is trying really really hard to empathize with the white racists and understand them and then his I guess you'd call her mate or I don't know what you say but she's a black woman that lives and works for him and like yeah. That's really cool that you're making all this effort to understand the clan but who the fuck is trying to understand us and everybody in the room. It's like Oh Jeez. And apparently Aaron Sorkin added a bunch of that in. I believe he did that. I was reading something about it the other day that the stuff he added to it has a lot to do with pushing back on like that book is always beloved. Because of Atticus finch is like radical empathy for the white supremacists and how he turns out in in pursuit of some justice. But that Sorkin is pushing back on that a bit in this version. What who are you? I'm not super comfortable Zorkin's pushback depending on how it works. But that argument is right. The question is what happens. I felt it was a lot easier for me to participate in politics in my twenty s when I was more certain. Who's right? It's not like I have a question about who's right with kids in cages on the border but a lot of questions about just like. How do you operate in politics? Like how? What are your bias. I mean I feel like I have been guilty of being like let's understand the like you said the poor white trump supporting people and I'm like Pete is is it because they look like you like what I have been doing that with another group and these are. These are hard questions I mean. Every one of the things I think about in the debates over political correctness in Baotou in social change. Is that when you're trying to change the status quo when you're trying to move things? In a revolutionary direction there is a very very deep backlash that emerges that is particularly centered around like. Let's understand the losers and the people who might be treated unfairly under this new regime and that is completely reasonable and true and correct and I talk in the book about the need to treat loss on. All sides is a real political feeling but at the same time were those were all of you giving as much attention to the losers under this regime right under the sun and now you can you can just become a form of what aboutism that stops. The conversation cold right. It doesn't make your view bad if I say well. You weren't extending that kind of empathy in the other direction. That doesn't mean the empathy is incorrect. Now but you have to. It is a empathy. As much tougher practice. I think than people often give it credit for because and its less instinctual much less instinctual. It is the people who either other are in power dude or have been put into your in groups somehow in the writer's room when we were talking about me too and Jamie Lee was one of the writers and we were talking about. Obviously Louis had happened Louis C. K. And because we talked about it from every angle we obviously. It emerged that we were like is. There's some empathy for Louis and Jamie made this really wonderful point where she was like. Don't I know you can sit with them but sit with the UH us? They're like who's sitting with us and it was a real click moment for me and we tried to put that into the show whereas like yes you can have empathy but as atticus finch like who are you just going with the people that look like a white male comedian was scandalised. Is it that hard for a bunch of white male comedians? It'd be like well. You know what I mean. Sit with the marginalized. It would be one of my colleagues at box. Wrote a great piece around all that just saying there's so much fear about the art. We could lose from Louis. What about all the art? We lost from the people who were driven out. Rally people like and the aren't they you'd gain by making or stable environment and it's not to say there will not be unfair losers that they're always have been to the. Louis almost don't want to get into it but I will be in the spirit of the JBC but yeah one of the things that broke my heart so much about that story. Was I've been big? Fan of the show is a lot of people were what I loved about his show so much. A show was. It's empathy was his ability to put himself in the perspective of people who weren't him which didn't always work but manny tried harder than most the the one where he dates the heavier woman. That was not a good example of that but I remember this. I'm being I'm being honest. I thought that was well done. Haven't seen that episode. I remember Oh I think I'm thinking of something else towards the end of the show that had to do with like I don't remember all the countries signed the show and I wouldn't want to try to try to play it but I remember one in particular where it was about like Louis ended up following some kid home in the Cape is like like a total asshole getting beaten by the Dad. And I just remember thinking like that was one of the most radical accent the CNN TV. And what was happening with him such a tremendous inability if you take him at his at. Its Most Generous Right. Such a tremendous inability to see how what he was doing was going to affect other people right right like even this person who is art was capable. Such radical acts of empathy was also capable of such total self-absorption life. Which I know those things can of course go together and having so many artists but for some reason that part of it broke my heart because part of him that I really admired. Was this deep empathy. Yeah I had so many more one of the good things that's happened is I've had many conversations. Laura Bites My. I don't want to call her my opener. But the person I've been touring with because she's a headliner in her own right. But we've been touring together and she's told me so. Many stories of people jerking off in front of her at the Y. Or like some of their stories but the one at the Y. I think should be okay with me saying like just some old guy at the Y. And she went and reported it and they didn't believe her and I could just like see with a new Lens. My Lens had been changed. How not that I ever was over? It swayed hot. You know what I mean. I was never that way. I've always been like a sweetie. I in that regard because I I'm an emotionally vulnerable person often but she was just talking about like and I could feel how fucking difficult that that was for her and how traumatic. It was for her so when I hear all the like what's the big deal stuff. I'm like I'm not hearing a lot of emotional intelligence. What what I. I was to tell my story. This was like a week ago. I was over by the Vista Theater. And there's a lot of traffic there and there was a homeless person or a person. Having a psychotic episode is an unstable person walking through traffic and he stopped right in front of my car and he just pulled up. He was wearing like a skirt he pulled up skirt and he was and he started to take his Dick out and I was like really shocked. I guess I'm a man I have a pianist. I see my own peanuts all the time I was still like I'm gonNA use. I felt very violent. I felt very unsafe and that was just in my car. So I'm in a powerful place in a car there on foot. I was just like we need to like I know people are like. Oh snowflake snowflake but it was like yeah. Maybe part of me is vulnerable like a snowflake and maybe that's the people who yell. I have this line in the book. Actually that it is. Maybe that's human deepest of all political needs is to feel safe. It is people yelling snowflake the loudest who are most upset that they can't feel safe what they say interesting and are so angry at the people who what they want is now to feel safe what they say and one of the things a bit My at a college out. The New York Times amended how she'd written a really beautiful piece for vox it a number of years ago but you can find it on the Google Machine About the consent tax and what she was saying was that the amount of work women had to do at all times to make sure they weren't in an unsafe position to make sure if they were in an unsafe position they could get out to thank like was this person who could help them in their career offering a drink with him because he wanted to have sex with our because he was interested in their work the work they had to do to deal with the trauma of like having like been an unsafe position and they weren't able to get out and then something terrible happened is the constant endless effort of like. He's too late. Did the mix in this room change and like what am I too drunk. Am I wearing something that and that? What's happening there but in a lot of spaces is some of that effort that work that constant mental taxation that was falling on people who were less powerful is now being spread out more? And I'm not saying it's great. It's great that anybody has to do it. Yeah but that the reaction to people now just having to do it a little bit. Yeah just be a little bit careful about what they say about who they offend when other people have careful about it all the time. We're running photoshop. Except they had so many programs and now we have been stickies opened. Demand is a bit like that. Was this tremendous tax. Like thirty percent of all energy was going to this like old times and a lot of contacts and now it's not that it's great when other people have to do it like in some way it'd be much better if we're able to handle everything perfectly and you know like give each other benefit of the doubt and if somebody missteps just talked to them about it but it is in my book. Jennifer Richardson who say. Y'All psychologists call at the democratization of discomfort That this feeling of discomfort that something might be wrong here and I have to do the work to figure out what it is and how not to step over it or step onto it is now being democratized more people and all of a sudden the those of us as you put it like don't have to have all the programs open to have to have some stickies that. I don't say the one word you can't say all like how dare you like first of all. How dare you like I am supposed to be? I'll say anything right because free speech and you can see the power in those terms and in those values in those principles but man a lot of people never got to hide behind them in that way. It's never been free for everybody. Somebody at the four seasons and they just started charging for Ketchup. That's what it is. It's like what a catch up with. Always free this is supposed to be in a Fox as earns. That's what it is and you know it's interesting. I want to circle back to what I said. Of course there are parts of me that are like a snowflake are you paying attention to your interior world. Why Act so strong. Why put someone effort and so much adoration to John Wayne Type? If you weren't aware of the deep parts of you inside that are vulnerable as I'm GonNa say a baby bird because I don't like the word snowflake there's so much ns I'm shocked at how a song can take me back to a place or a look that somebody gives me at a lunch meeting or just a dismissal that a Barista gives me. There's something in me with a lot of people. Call it our inner child. You call the baby bird or this like why. Are we so afraid of the part of us that we all share? That is deeply deeply vulnerable. It like you have a dream and it will shake the way you interpret your entire day a dream. Of course. I'm like it's like that's my new book. Proud snowflake I'm just saying like I'm proud of my strength and I'm aware of my vulnerability and if there's anything I one of those fathers he'd cried. A Bob Seeger song but like it was hard to sort of get. I have one of these sort of hard to get them to be emotional and other ways but that doesn't mean it's not in there. Are we so like a facade? Obsessed that we're like well. He's a big strong man. I know play against the wind. Somebody play against the wind. That's I'm saying this. In a beautiful way that's vulnerability and vulnerability as part of the human experience and it's good to protect and shelter others said it'd be like hey do what I'm doing. Pretend and yell louder so you don't look like you have that. Of course you fucking have it. Why not yelling? So right. But like man the fury of it's a lot of work to even begin to integrate the broken parts of yourself a lot of work and I said to somebody who's probably only begun right only begun like in like over like the last couple of years to deal with some of the stuff that was more fractured. And if you're not used to those parts of yourself like if you're not really been thrown into that hit like inside for one reason or another like the anger you will feel at somebody for bringing that up and had that down. Yeah like that's a lot and it's not even an irrational form of anger. Like how dare you make me feel this way? This way feels really bad. You'RE NOT WRONG. It feels bad. That's right you're maybe a little bit wrong about who's really making you feel that way but it's not wrong. Feel bad with a great Kobe. Dying we all feel more mortal. I hit my head in the Green Room in Nashville and it was just bleeding holding it and you just remember that you're just a bag of blood in your head can bleed so easily and because of this like big. Sonic wave death that we all experienced. We're feeling more vulnerable. And that's like a very challenging thing. Similarly when somebody else is dealing with their darkness in their weakness it mirrors to us and and it can be very frightening also. I think there might be something at play. Where it's a lecturer. I can feel my father being like when I was sixteen. My father died and I took over the oil delivery business when I was twenty two. I started going to therapy. You know what I'm saying like and also I'm a comedian and and I have the leisure to have conversations like most people listening. I think would be like yeah. I'd love to take three hours and talk to Ezra Klein. I hope they're not thinking. Must be nice but not everybody has that kind of time and then they do have time to call me a liberal card or whatever you know what? I'm saying like we're all I'd like to think we're all doing the best we can and I'm trying to have compassion for the people that might not know their inner snowflake and therefore what's available on their menu is to call me a snowflake but this is one of the I don't know I think it's such a weird thing in politics that it has become just snowflake a whole concept the idea that in politics what people want ultimately is to be able to just feel safe to say what they wanna say do what they WANNA do. It's so obvious right. And the people who were the first yell. Snowflake are the most upset that you can't say. Merry Christmas or something. Even though you can't say merry Christmas yeah the most upset about something to happen on a college campus. And I think like a deep problem In the way relate to each other is that we can see that everybody is super afraid. Yeah and not afraid in ways that they can Out within say identify and so one of the things that I found in politics and I say this having had to work my way backwards to it. Because I'm just intensely politically weird like I. I'm policy reporter. Operate at the most sanitized cerebral like think tank reports and Charts and graphs and Appendices. And like that's the stuff I'm known for and one of the things I've in the book deals with some of this but that I've had to just come back to is not only not most of our bedrock politics but often times. That is stuff we use to find a safe way to talk about. Bedrock politics I'll give an example. They said something. I realized it took me a long time was I was using the words. I'm stressed when the feeling I was describing was I'm sadder scared because I'm stress was really safe. That's what my therapist says. Kids say I'm bored when they meet. I'm depressed that's interesting to just bored so stressed was like everybody's like Oh. Well you should be stressed like you look how much you're doing in the business and the politics and the pieces and the you're on TV and like you can definitely be stress that is safe and it was like it took a lot of time and it was like mindfulness and in some cases some of those mindfulness shortcuts. Here talking about like four some reckoning with all that's not just stress yeah like something's really wrong here and but politics has at a lot We I was saying this earlier in the immigration debate that it's like you end up his argument about what's happening to wages and they like well even if I believe that we could just do a tax. Cut The extra revenue from the new workers more than compensate. And that doesn't solve the argument. 'cause that was never actually the argument. That was a safe way to have an argument that there was not an people. Do not feel safe. Actually having a lot of politics is you're like you're chasing something that's not really the finger chasing. Yeah that's interesting. You can't have the conversation it's like talking to people. Don't even know what the conversation is. Yeah it's like talking to a STOIC parent. Yeah you have to have the subtitles on. I love you so sorry. I'm afraid yes and we are all afraid that that's another thing. That psychedelics has enlightened for me. How I don't want to just say lonely but how isolating it can be to be one of these meat. Puppets like it's crazy like watching of course so I've been shitting on identity and I'm like it's stupid that you like. The Red Sox are stupid that you're Republican or Democrat or this or that okay great. That must be nice to be able to do that. Because it's very frightening in the more identity we have. I think sometimes the less scared we are. Of course I'm back at my joker point. Of course people have noticed as if I'm belonging if I know what my group is if I know that tobacco as a cash crop that those tax dollars helped with this blah blah blah blah. It's less frightening to just be like. I woke up as I always say in a conundrum. This is a conundrum and it's very scary. Yeah and it's one of those ones right. Tobacco cash crop is just a classic that had nothing to do with anything in that conversation. That was not his real argument. It had nothing to do with your argument. You'd like tobacco's a cash crop like nobody gives like marijuana's a cash crop and I bet you at that moment he would not like working for the legalisation of even though it can make people a lot of money. That's right like that's like that's a stuff where it's like you're hearing something and it's so hard because one of my complex and all this. I as a journalist like one of my values to be generous like try to take arguments and the best way and somebody's doing that and you realize like that's great but you've just invented a fake argument right right. I wrote down mom and Dad I which is at a certain point. I can certainly say this reports. It's just daddy you know what I mean like if I like if I was really into the Red Sox. I see that as a way for me to build a bridge to my father you know what I'm saying and politics. I feel like a lot when I was talking to heath. We were so young I was like so much of this is just mommy and Daddy I. I'm not saying he was wrong and I'm not saying he's saying I do the same thing. It's the word love is just been so ruined but it is love. You're looking for some love some involvement some connection a place to stand and then over in the spiritual place we're going there's nowhere to stand and it's like how cheese. I don't know if I can do that because this is already a lot. What so what do you believe now atheists Jewish atheist no? I'm a agnostic like. I'm a pretty committed agnostic. Okay I believe things are much weirder than I only get better. I saw your interview with Malcolm. Glad well teased that. Maybe if you weren't Jewish atheist no I am. I'm glad well by the way talks like Greg the egg on succession. What are the things like? It's very similar. I can't you sell my posture than Oh yeah. That was a lot of fun. Yeah you ask great. He's great I mean it was really fun watching. Yeah he was a lot of fun No I'm a very deeply ver- that whatever like the quote Unquote Capital T. Truth is is so much fucking weirder than our brains understand why I laugh. I'm up in Oakland these days so I'm in the Silicon Valley world sometimes and everybody likes talking about. Are we in a computer? Simulation and the crew monotheism was like what if? God is me but bigger dude you're and then Vickrey. Pewter simulation argument is like a like an even narrower version like what if God is like me a software engineer but bigger and just idea that is going to be that simple back. Made the same point and it blew my mind. I was like we've done it. The more things change the more they stay the same. Of course we're just going. I create guide creates like I create. This is saying this is a simulation is such a return to just like. Oh so there's just like something in charge of all of this that just wound it all up and made it all for his purposes. That's we're back at genesis reading. And you should have this guy on. Sean. Carroll's book something Deeply Hidden. Which is a book about quantum physics and Sean is like like a piece? A CALTECH PHYSICIST THE REAL. The real deal please put us in touch And but one of the things about his book that I just didn't quite a one is just mindblowing book and I like. I understand what nobody understands about quantum physics way better than I did before which is great but the big point of his book is that these equations seem to work. They predict things to an incredible level of accuracy. And if you take them seriously what they mean is the world of splitting into uncountable number of parallel universes at all times and like his argument is just like take them seriously. Nobody wants to do this. But there's just like the whole reason we get into these weird like is an observer fact on like what I look at it and then it collapses into from wave to a particle. Yeah no I know what there is is not that there's an observer effect what it is is that you are simply in the world where this one probability came true and all the others are in the world where the ability came true. And I'm probably getting this wrong but his big thing basically is that we imagine it that like we're these classical physics beings looking at quantum things. But no we're just going to say runs you through and so you just have to believe something if you really either. We don't know what the Hell's going on which is totally possible but if you just take the most straightforward interpretation of the math right. Now what we're seeing is going on is something so crazy we simply refuse to believe it and so a lot of his book is about the way that this was so weird that in the scientific profession it just became a little. Dick Hossain trying to figure it out. Yeah it like what where it was taking people with so completely insane that there was kind of internal professional argument and people decided that. Let's figure out how to use quantum physics. Not Try to like meditating works for stress instead of Meditate I. I'm sure I'm butchering served in important ways. But he's got a great podcast also called mindscape and and would like this. But it's just I find it comforting. There is some way I find it comforting to just say it's just weirder than that. I love that something. Something unknown is doing something we know. Not What is a is a helpful one. I love what you just said because for me one of the things that's been missing from science as it was explained to me. I just mean in school. I didn't go to MIT. I'm just saying like basic bitch. Science never seem to address that the observer was part of the observed universe it was like you are like religion makes the same mistake you are over here. You are pacman going through the board. Pacman is made of the same pixels as the ghosts and the pellets and the maze. You know what I'm saying you like I needed and this is where quantum physics done in my very cursory study. It's helped me go like no there's geniuses that are for decades have been way ahead of you of course going. We are part of the thing that we are looking at so it is looking at itself and it like the Heisenberg thing you were saying is affecting what we're seeing and it is part of what we're saying. I described as the knife cut itself. I had this great experience in the book where so I learned some very basic quantum physics in school too but I didn't understand anything And then you know if you read a lot of the kinds of spirituality books that you read. I've read a number of you. Come across a lot of quantum physics in them. It's like a constant talk about the way particle thing. But I had absorbed enough of scientific professions pushback on this stop misusing. It doesn't mean that and it's like okay. All that stuff is wrong and then I read John's book sick. Oh like may be wrong but they actually don't know what's right. It's not wrong in the sense that they have a different answer. Some AB misstating the equation. But they actually don't know they don't want to use like a lot of scientists. Don't WanNa used in this way. That feels culturally comes off but they it's not because they've got some better idea right. It's because they don't know now. Some people were like trying to wrap it into a spiritual thing that they also don't know but I sort of liked that that I I don't know I find some comfort in the idea that it's all just going to be stranger abso fucking lutely and the scientists that I've been drawn to are always the ones that go like. No the answer is we don't know that doesn't mean you can use the equation and. I'm sure I've done this. We could find audio. That doesn't mean you can use the equation to prove what you'd like to believe but we need to. We're back to what we were saying about. Faith in doubt being these opposites in science and not knowing or not opposites not knowing is a part of science. It's a it's a blank and they'll actually I'll take back even to identity. Which is something that I think. People underrate is that identities are based on values to the not just based on week. We talk about identity. Politics like the only thing that could be an identity or race or religion or party or something like that but like just a sports can be an identity just religion could be at any also like I'm fair-minded generous and I'm the identity I like the most and it's wild like the journalistic identity for myself. Is that curious is just a great identity. Yeah you can do a lot with curious like curious with like a little bit of compassionate like that can take you pretty far and really working to convince yourself of that about yourself and that's an identity you don't want violated. Yeah is I think really healthy like something. I pushed people on in the book is like China. Trying to a lot of people are trying to build your identities you often in very unhealthy ways like being like knowing that identities powerful psychological substrate that. You're using all the time recognizing the people are manipulating it and threatening some and pushing others and then asking yourself. Well what do I want my core identities to be? And how can I strengthen them and what would it mean to violate them and like for me? I think a lot about the entity of just like I mean for me. Being a journalist fundamentally it's curiosity like you want to understand the way the world works and that means left Gospel questions and then like maybe tell other people. What you've found. That's it's that. It's that hard in that easy. It sounds very similar to patience and humility. Actually curiosity and compassion. It's not exactly the same. Obviously it's not synonymous but it's similar to that openness and that willingness So we're we've overlapped a lot and I really enjoy that. I love what you just said. We talked a lot about a lot of stuff. We have two last questions. I know we've had me a little bit overtime. I don't know what you do. I have no idea what time it is me. Neither what is time we don't know among the I know isn't that funny. I always like the one when we watch for how particles electrons behave were just like the further end. We go the more we're like. Nothing is guaranteed like nothing is any law as if we go as far down as we can. We're yeah it's just it's just pop. Rocks sparkling pop rocks one is. Has Anything happened to you that you cannot explain? This is a catch all question for aliens and ghosts and weird. Serendipity is you don't have to have an answer. I just would hate myself to not out. I don't have. I can't think of a ton of direct stuff to me. I can't think of a ton of direct to me that feels inexplicable around me. There have been a lot of stories. Like Shit happens to my mom all the time that you can't explain but maybe give a bigger answer to this. It seems completely impossible that I'm in the position. I'm in about two seconds that. What are the chances that you like? Whatever for whatever value of you you have are born then like not just born but you're human being not just like a human being but you live in America like the richest country in the world. Not just in America but like you like you're born into the upper middle class in it not just apple like you come to like. I've had a very successful career in general. It just doesn't seem plausible. Yeah I can't explain any of that. That doesn't make any sense. I didn't deserve that. I didn't do something for it. I'm not even try. I'm not even try totally by the only time I sort of the only time I sort of believe the simulation stuff is it does sometimes feel like maybe like super me put like a quarter and maybe superb. You put a quarter in the arcade and like that's the game. We're playing it just. It just seems so likely. Sorry for coughing. Through that whole thing I totally hear what you're saying. I don't care if I believe this literally. It is a thought experiment when I'm like. We're doing all of them. That's why I like the Hindus and the reincarnations and when you look at reincarnation really it's all of it. All of your lives are just happening simultaneously but anyway the idea that this time you doing this what you're really just doing all of them but because it's one thing. I sort of enjoyed that. Why wouldn't you be doing this because you've done? The odds of it are just so unbelievably stacked against it. Yeah you can also zoom it out to just be like that. Anything is happening that there's an totally I know so it doesn't it doesn't leave you anywhere just I like. It is so much easier to believe in ghosts into believe him like by good fortune. I love that two more questions is Bernard GonNa win. Oh Bernie said well. It's come out so I know when I'm talking for I don't know if you have a preference we put out earlier. It's just like we'll know more in a couple weeks when we get through some more primaries three months from now and I'm like well. He's a front runner but by then he's today today is February birthday after the Iowa caucus so. I think it's a fourth but I could be wrong February for it so this is what it is right now. I think that he is the Democratic Front runner and I think that if he wins the nomination I would put him a slight favorite to win General but I mean you can look at polling. It's only a slight favorite but it's not out of the question absolutely not you'd be crazy to things out of the question fun like him. Look at his jackets his dusty jacket flapping around one percent of the visit. Get that guy over here and I'm GONNA pay a lot of taxes if he wins so yeah it's not just me Hoping Ping there's all this talk helps me On the left about like why do people but against their self interest and important people but against the self interest all the time including a lot of people like Bernie Sanders is compelling against his own economic self interest like help a lot of taxes if you went to yeah like people vote based on who they want to be in the world and like what they want their vote to say about them and the world they want to see. Here's something weird that I've never said What I don't understand it so rich. People don't WanNa pay as much taxes. But what I don't get is that you still get to keep all the money you already have. I just tax new income. So if you will depends on the taxes we're talking about like roaring or Bernie's wealth tax would takes a lot of existing. Oh is that right. Oh huge like yeah would like wipe out a lot of existing welfare rich people. Oh Wow yeah for very rich people but yes. It's when we're talking about like new marginal tax rates Tube Clip Homes get schooled economics line destroy. I didn't know you could do that. You're talking about like hyper hyper. Hyper hyper rich. Yes so the wealth taxes are talking about the very rich and then the other but yeah income taxes is future comp- also one of the things that goes on the tax debate a lot and you see this with a lot of the like Elizabeth. Warren burn billionaire fights is that oftentimes what rich people object to most in the tax debate is not like the idea. They'll pay more taxes but the idea. They don't deserve the money they got a bit like at a certain point. Money as a way you keep score and you're super rich and you're winning the game but you have a new high score like everybody comes to the pizza. Place knows you're the best somebody comes and says like not only. Do you have to give up those points? But we should understand that. It's bad that you have them in the first place. And then they go crazy back at identity. Yeah WE'RE BACKING IDENTITY. Like being a billionaire like part of that identity is like. I did something amazing and then Elizabeth Warren comes over and says you're the problem you're like how dare you. How dare you yeah? Well I mean it makes sense to look at the other side and be like if we're such a capitalist Capitalistic Society. If you make billions of dollars shouldn't you be kingship right? Yeah League as at that levels all puts on the board. Destroy love about Steve Jobs. When he was at every came back at apple for a long time he would only get paid a dollar a year and long after he turned around. You still making a dollar a year and Apple. Boorda's like you. We have to pay you like you can't just keep making a dollar a year like you've done an amazing job like we want to pay. You said eventually find is all on the ice and he comes back to them with an ask. That is huge. Like they wanted to pay him but they don't WanNa pay him this much. Yeah and the issue was like when look at that and funding is almost exactly the same story about George Washington when he was like fighting for the British before we were a country but it is very high status to be turning on apple for a dollar right the savior. Who's there because he loves a company and it's very high status make more than all the other. Ceo's because you're the best CEO what you don't want to be is a CEO making the median CEO. Income interesting like it's it's great to be sacrificial. It's great to be the very richest but you don't just go to like money. The way the money gets paid is a recognition of what you're valued at a dollar. It's clear refusing the recognition at bazillions of dollars. It's clear that we recognize. You're the best right just like you're making the CEO as just another. Ceo He wanted to be the best either and humility. Or did they give it to? Yeah he made a Chitter no money. I'm wondering why I have all these thoughts about all the huge corporations and again you have to remember who you're talking to you just kind of a comedian but there's my identity again but Why not just with a company like apple this caught some flak for you know. Shine Jane the town wrong China And the way that the products are made why not? Why doesn't NEC- Just have the LSD if not jobs who revelation just like. I'm going to be the greatest company in the world. I'm going to change the way that that company is run like if Amazon was just like everybody like there's there's companies that do this just not huge companies that are like guess what there's daycare and everybody gets health insurance and we don't overwork you and you make a great salary. Why doesn't jobs take the glory pay and then either pay it forward in the company or pay it forward in the country or pay it forward globally one? Is Dad just page? I know I hate to break this. You just spoiled that before me. Steve Fast and fast benders dead without like there is a margin on which they can do that and then a margin on which the both the increase in cost but also like one of the reasons. A lot of them are trying to supply chain stuff there. It is a bad thing about capitalism. They're often like good business reasons to do bad things so there you go that whether or not the right answer and like we don't have any mythic figures that are just like yeah. I know I could make their shareholders people who do that. I mean the Doctor. Bronner's people do that and they're they're they're folks out there who do but I tried to sponsor and they were like we don't do that. Yeah we give our money away and then people seem to know about our product and they were like we. Love Your podcast. We'll send you some soap but Yeah we don't advertise like that and I was like Jesus Christ. They're real serious so but to be like they'll be guest. There's you know market incentives and other incentives to squeeze and and isn't it easy for someone to go just keep doing it in sort of the grey way and use your money for good? I'm sure somebody could just explain that. We're doing good. Because on the other side our products are cheaper and because our products are cheaper more people can have them in the products. Very good at rationalizing. We are I feel like I just turned. I'm just kidding What fun here's the last question? Can you think of the time in your life that you laughed the hardest? I was definitely on psychedelics. Spiders which one I don't remember I mean probably like it's just a different like I know form a BA- actually we'll say one I remember this is at a time in my life and I was very stressed See I wanna I WANNA be clear. I have not done a ton of the stuff but I've had a couple experiences but busy time in my life. I was very stressed and I was having a stressful trip and I remember just like I was like looking up like I was like like laying down in a room and looking up at the ceiling and like the house around me and all of a sudden the whole thing just felt completely ridiculous and I just couldn't stop like tears running down my face laughing at how just like silly at all was right all the status like the parts of his house for just like a monument to how well somebody was doing like the whole thing just seemed unbelievably ridiculous. It was like this whole thing by chest cracked open and in a really nice way. You got the joke. Yeah like you got the joke. I've told this story a million but I was on mushrooms and my friends were on missions. But it hadn't kicked in on them. This is here at this house and they were talking about where to buy an Amazon Alexa and I was on a beanbag chair that we used to have wearing an adult onesie that I still have and is it an animal onesie it says is I mean I like to think of it as a big teddy bear because it's Brown but it doesn't have like God. I was in paradise laughing. Not at them but at everything just like here. We are saturated in the mystery floating in space floating an infinitive. And we've become self aware. So something has become activated and we are part of that and you guys are on the same magic substance. I'm on it hasn't worked for you because my theory was they smoked too much pot and I was like you're talking about where to buy an Amazon Alexa and I could not stop laughing similar. Also here experience is he answered that question Dude. It's also funny if you're sober where you buy a Walmart Gift Card Walmart. What color is an orange? Ezra we're GONNA listen to the show. It's VOX podcast. Vox is a wonderful vodka. The covers news no laugh and you have a new book called Y. were polarized. I got a lot of vodka. Vox Shirts no is there. I liked it but it took me a moment. Is there any spot getting box? It definitely sounds like there will be This is Spanish semi Fascist party named Fox. Yeah but if I knew that I hide like a flag Oh really what did delightful conversation enlightening illuminating and I? It was a pleasure to be here to be admired so much for so long. What was the other one that got you to do a podcast? I compare show a lot. Which one tim ferriss yet? Tim Is Great. So early. On a podcast I was much more biographical. And confessional the way interview pulling out of how did I hear this? Said it publicly? Maybe I'd probably say publicly. And then over time. I realized that that wasn't actually my podcasting style but yeah it was transporting some of that actually to the politics realm. That was the basis for the work. I do now and now it's changed in its own ways but at the beginning when you're always like kind of mimicking things you love. I was pulling a little button. Mashing time of your podcast now. You're doing the COMBOS. All right would you say keep it crispy? That's how we end keep a crispy you keep your crispy. Oh wait kit I forgot. Are we still rolling? I forgot to give you your gift. Oh great so you want shore. Is this like a sponsor or what's going on sponsor and they gave me a bunch of free stuff and I'm giving it to guests chocolate Original formula which is what I like actually a chocolate or is it a it. Tastes like chocolate is oil but it right in your mouth and these are dummies. That can help you sleep. Oh amazing they make gumy's I thought I'd try to sleep once and it kept me up. Am I talking? Should I be talking to the micro? We you could talk. Yeah this is. This is part of the show. Because I getting the word out because I love this company and its CW DOT COM SLASH. Weird keep it crispy. Fourteen gets you fourteen forty percent of how for the month of February? But that's for you for free. I feel like I'm on double their thanks to our friends at at Charlotte's web. Johnny take us away now. Now thank you got. Keep it crispy. Let me say so Chris Christie.

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