Episode 42, London: Hilary Whitney
Tell me what we're looking at you. Stay. As you can see. Great. Postal traditional ceres this is a vacuum we use becky distillation for everything is done under glass. We're not in a factory or grape distilling hall where We, are in what back in the nineteen seventies was called in this family the playroom. Because Ian has lived in this House since nineteen seventy two. Those originally kitchen there, and then it was built out and so that means we have access to water employing. What does this neighborhood called? This is highgate. Yeah, it's quite A. Historic area. What very famous summitry where KOMAX BURIED And George Michael. and. Brothers. Lots of other. People can I say in my vulgar way? It is very fucking pleasant out there. Here's what the citation from the World Jin awards says. whiffs of Mint Fennel Aniseed, as well as a good amount of caraway, a little more freeness on the palate complex and interesting. Now. I have the Palette of a four year old. So I cannot say if I experienced all of those flavors in sacred spirits old Tom. Gin. But I can say that it was named the world's best old Tom Gin that's in the entire world in two thousand and nineteen, and even if my palate isn't that the surname not always so easily charmed, but these people charmed me. I trekked north in London to sacred spirits headquarters, which is actually the home of the wife and husband Team Hillary Whitney and Ian Hart and they fed me alcohol in delicate. And charms new with their gorgeous life in leafy hi gate with ramshackle English Garden in the back and the playroom full of Kirby Vacuum distilling glass Worley gigs that make London's finest Jim. This is another rerelease of our London series no longer for subscribers only just free to the world wherever you get your podcast. So let's have some gin with Hillary, Whitney. I'm naming former and from roads and kingdoms. This is the trip. Drinking with exceptional people around the world. Chess Welcome. Gate. You. Delicious it is delicious. It's my my Gimblett is my go-to cocktail. It's I. Love It. What's in this? You have a preference versus land coudl. which is traditionally what was used Gimblett I think some people find a little bit too sweet now but if you get the proportions, right it works have I think you might remember it was in its mentioned in. The Long Goodbye Chandler. So you're being a literary type. You're you're going to drink literary cocktail well, I do think that one of the things about drinks and make an spirits particularly for drinks wine beer i. think there are strong literary connections which I really like I really enjoy that part of it they have some very good writing about drinking and we have this conversation about about cannabis about alcohol about creativity you do like. At what point? Is it useful? How do you incorporate it into your kind of writers? You know as people who try to write like how do these things kind of work in there? How does alcohol fit into into writing? You were writer before you made find spirits. And they're journalists. So how does it play a role? I, well for me to be quite honest I can't drink and write it. It doesn't work like once met launch funky and he told me how he really really tried to stop the CHARAC- from drinking because he was the first person to publish Kaushik and he said he he kidnapped once and took him to his heart his. Place in big Sur. Try and get him off. So he could start writing again and it just didn't work and he said it was a ruination of him, and of course, all those people at Scott Fitzgerald. Who I think we wound by alcohol. But I love reading about it I think it makes for great reading. But personally, if I have to write something, it's Niemann or anything I can't do it is if it's going. To be completely straight civic for Post Game Yeah when when you've turned the manuscript in yeah or after a grueling existential terrifying session with a blank page. So she said taking another We're not here to right. We're not a talk, and if there's one human activity I, think is immeasurably and consistently improved by drinking. It's talking, yes I agree I agree I dare anybody to come up with an argument against that. said the man speaking loudly at the end of the bar. Become Witty and. So much more interesting. So. It's not just the cordial, but it's It's sacred gin and sacred Jen Yup sacred gem which is made in this house. In highgate. So I have been very fascinated by Jin as a consumer, but also as somebody like you, who's Su likes to think perhaps a little more about alcohol than. Than, I should I don't know if that qualifies. If you're in that camp as well. But I am fascinated by being in what we consider the spiritual home of. Gin. I mean, it's London. London. Dry Gin. Actual I mean what is it like a do see do you have to make? Do, you have to make the Jin within the confines of London, London trenching communities anywhere. It's a category and obviously is kind of Nice when it comes from London. But the very, very good Jim's made all London Dryden's made all over the world. Now, it basically means that it has to be made from very good quality based spirit. It has to have a certain has to have a larger proportion of juniper compared to the other botanical 's let's be juniper let. And it shouldn't have anything added aft like sugar or flavoring or color or anything like that, and is your classic sacred in London Dry it is indeed yes. You couldn't start anywhere else. You've got to have a base of yeah. This is highgate debt and also we've probably at the time didn't understand you kind of. Go from that. You could kind of wonder from that but we have done since. So how let's let's talk about secret because I think one of we've published about your gene on on roads and kingdoms before Oliver blow did this. Incredible piece about the new gin craze and I, think for him, you guys were a sort of an Avatar for a new generation of distiller that was recovering Jin from a very tired sort of like aging royalties drink. Absolutely the Queen Mother Grandmother I mean from Queen and on answer present time you had a sort of a bunch of very stuffy gin drinkers. and. As he had described at four think young Londoners especially young British people. Jin was this tired colonial Spirit. And all of a sudden that changes and you have people like yourselves making this incredibly thoughtful refined. Valuable desired GIN IN A. Still in your playroom. How how did we get? How did we get to there with sacred spirits? How did how did you? How did you come to this business? It's very strange. And I'm not really sure how it happened in quite good anticipating waves and things So he was out of a job back in he worked in finance and he was out of job back in. Two, thousand Two Thousand and seven, thousand, six, two, thousand, seven before the crash really. So he was ahead of his time when everyone else lost their jobs, well, he to financial recruitment. So obviously, everyone started slowing down before then. He's done many other things. But that he's doing at the time and he is very entrepreneurial and he also very interesting food and drink and he started experimenting head is a fan several ideas. But one of them was he he'd always enjoyed distilling child enjoyed the ceiling although not alcohol but gases and unusual things. Yes everyone looks surprised when I say that but he used to do that in that room distillers third Dickensian. So he started distilling He's got a collection of Bordeaux wine and he started stealing it. So who could make like more? Poor vintages have been through. The Been Watery Harvests. So he could make them richer I've got you know he would take the water extract some of the water out. So that makes wine richer and not. So dilute like us and it actually works my well but you can't really do much with that because I mean the make themselves would have fit. Rebuttal and. Start selling. Many. Doors I quite enjoy drinking. Gin. And so he thought he could use his vote of after he'd been using to distill the winds with to make a gin and. He tried twenty three different recipes and we take them to a local pub wrestlers around the corner to for people to try, and then the twenty third recipe was the one that everyone said yes this is great and landlord said a few Bartlett optic behind the boss. So that's what we did. You were saying earlier, there was a period of dubious legality as you were experimenting was that in that era like two, thousand, eight, I guess I don't know what you're saying because it's been I don't think we're doing anything illegal, but we certainly couldn't have sold at. All licenses and and that kind of thing, and at that time I was looking as if we don't stand missed so. Oliver had gathered a a small round table of tasters when he did this story about about the new gin craze and he. Had A lot of comments that were like this tastes like Gin. And I think for a lot of people particularly casual drinkers you know good Jin tastes like gin bad tastes like. Not that pleasant Jin. But it's you know that there's a such a strong especially this juniper forward thing is such a strong flavor profile. So out of twenty three. Jin Recipes the crew at the wrestler had decided that this was the one what what for you makes like that. Really great solid. Chin you tasting when you're tasting it with oxygen I'm tasting Sutton mouth feel which has describing the cleanest I think it's quite creamy I think it's quite soft. That's interesting. Those are things that would two words I would have kept very far from gin usually. Yeah. said that it still because we still botanical such a low temperature, it's still kind of Chris on fresh. It's very fresh I think I'd skype as fresh, and that is the secret. Obviously is the mad genius sort of working on the plumbing and the gas. And the vacuum and the glass containers, but essentially, the process and one of the distinct characteristics of what you do is vacuum to stealing. So you do it at lower temperature. You're not cooking the flavour out factly in a in a certain way, and that's how you get these very strong freshness about and it also means that is also why we were able stay in the house because it's a safe this, you're not going nothing's going to explode. It's really safe at most you'll sort of suck up a ball of lint or something vacuum. That's not. Beckham is not a dangerous technology. That is a good question because we think about so many. Home homebrew operations that go. You WanNa make sure the worst case scenario besides the bit of Gimblett on this This record that using would has has there ever been a calamity a catastrophe here a large cleanup. There has been a yeah the floss floss of broken ins unplugged something and the pressure's been too much and it's like shattered, and so that is a little glass everywhere and lot of liquid and it's it's A nuisance to to clear up but it's not as long as you pick up the glass it's not dangerous. You're not going to the house went set on fire right and we're not talking about. Shards of glass flying through. Highgate knows. Crumbling on the floor. And you you do use glass exclusively in a way that. Is Different from a lot of stealing certainly when I've been large operations it's all stainless steel it's. Metals Y glass the. I think that was it was way of the in could design his equipment and because we started with the vote APP it just kind of made sense. What is wrong? It's just some sort of rotor you're making faces him. We don't have to go into the vertebrates. I knew that a lot about under these them to make some pieces cocktails. Heston Blumenthal. Views as well a lot and you kind of like this high gastronomy. Yeah. Great. I mean listen I'm telling myself here because this is nominally slightly alcoholic podcast and I I should know I'm sure. Late we evaporation. So it's Ok said anything like these are you vaping it? I don't know I'm going to bring it back to California and just pretend it's like one of these volcano massive. vaping machines. And they just sit sit on this table easily. Okay. About top very easily. Support for this podcast comes from CDW and Dell Technologies. At cdw Gee, we get migrating your agency to a hyper converged infrastructure is being. DECAF don't want to do it. Slowdown. Friend CDW experts can help simplify your transition from legacy to hyper converged infrastructure with Dell technology solutions that offer speed and agility didn't do it. Have you done it? Is it done yet done yet it orchestration by cdw. People who get it find out more at CDW. Dot Com slash DELTEC. Delicious I have to say I was I was surprised when we were proposing a drink and I thought as people who make. You know. One of the most celebrated Jans there is that you would not be cocktail people that you would sort of say this needs to be sipped. NEAT. 'cause you know the flavor profile is you know I. Have This picture of sort of you know the the artistes of the distilled spirits world demanding. A singular focus and attention on what they've made. I think A. Fairly. Class of classic but I think it doesn't interfere too much might disagree with the line but I have to say I would rather drink a SIP Geneva than have it with Tony not a huge GMT fan right and we we've spent a Lotta time in Spain where gin tonic is a, you know a national emblem at this point and what they've done to sort of address that is to create fancier tonics. Got Fever tree in all of these like. Fever dream and that's progress I do drink Jayanti. Sometimes then that is because I had one with fever tree and I feel, oh, that's that's I like that. That's okay right. There's some thought you just sort of like. Drowning your gin schweppes. mcgahn. Yeah. I guess. So, what's a bottle of secret in what does that go for like your classic gin? What's it? What's what's the kind of general retail around here? Oh. Probably about thirty seven pounds, but obviously in places like Selfridge's and it's not more expensive but when we have not found any supermarkets. So I can't go a little weight rose and now you caught. Okay. But it's it's at a price point where maybe people would think twice you would hope. chugging it was schweppes or. Interesting when we first started, it was considered. Expensive but I mean, there are so many Jin's is so much more expensive. It's. When I'm doing a tasting people say how much is it before I think? It's expensive. Now it's just okay. That's fine. Now you think I need to raise May. Think maybe we do. Enough. All right. We'll we'll. Announce. Pricing. Pricing News when this comes out but I'm gather you said that we. We mentioned in all of us at that. You know we we were amongst the first because we were has actually I feel become slightly forgotten. You know there's been so I mean, there are so many gyms. Now I don't know how many there are he probably better than me but. There are so many in the markets. I. Definitely. Don't know better than you but the general cloud sense the I think you and I both have is like a huge number of Jin's with names that just. were. Unknown to me. Before laid eyes on them and they're all clearly an at and actually don't know the landscape of this but there must be some astroturf ing as well. The way that we see with microbrews in the United States where you have large liquor companies sort of now pretending to be issuing micro distillery Jin. Because there's a market there and they're always going to kind of fill that market and and. Definitely. A lot of Jains who will actually. Made by. The made by someone, but then not small brand. There are several distilleries that make lot of JEN's with lots of different people. Got It. So they're in the marketing is where Really Yeah. All right. It's but you guys are no slouches in marketing. People know your brand you have a new bottle coming out this you're not. You're not just sort of ignoring this and sending it out in sort of nameless vials I. Don't know how it got home stay because people have one for marketing I. Think we were fortunate that we had a we were on how to steal. So. Early, because we certainly didn't have the money to pay for a lot of expensive marketing and branding at the beginning was. Very. Well it wasn't very good to be honest I mean we had in designed actually made offers late bloomer had it probably printed up and then yet another label designed by friends and then we actually Measure branding agency who did the current label? Although we have. Changed since then but. Yeah I mean, some people have amazing marketing. Now it's just we used to go to a tasting event like Manhattan cocktail and. You know we just have a little table and I'll tasting cups and that would be that and other people have. Trucks and. Barrels. And bicycles and girls in Bikinis Phoenix. We're in the M Santiago spirits festival. And we had a stand. Next to this brand I. think it was cool. I think it was vodka and I think it was called ts and it was actually owned by two gay women. And the bottle is shaped like a naked woman. And The. Stand was one not by the owners, but by a couple of models who were very They were models like remember models being like in the seventies and things, glamour models and they had tiny silver Kinney's long. Long, blond hair and they had very high heels and they were they had their were tottering around offering people samples Volker. To try and. They were very nice. We're very friendly. They're very sweet but I felt like practically amish next to them in my. My black dress and things but I'm thrilled to say. We want people saw stand because liquid was good. So that was very nice funding. Yeah. It wasn't a sex convention as. Interested in the in the liquid. That's good Validating to hear that, but I mean it is it's just the truth of. Liquor this is what you'd see with Digos and I mean it's ninety. percent. Marketing that the money that goes into the. Contents of the bottle. Seemed to be very, very small. So how do you guys navigate that? What's what feels like a good size for sacred gin for an independent? You know legit London gin maker output like how do you want to grow? Is there like a comfortable? I mean not to make assumptions you guys are living find. This is beautiful nice home, but it's not like CASS Amigos selling for one hundred million dollars or something. So how do you guys see yourselves in the in this like very voracious sort of hype driven. Liquor Universe it's it is very difficult sometimes, quite daunting. When we first started out we were. Quite innocent about. This kind of thing and also. The wasn't the competition then. So sip around chase was around. Before that. Hendrix and Bombay Sapphire and and that was it that was letting people thought they would drinking wells. When Bombay suffer came out and I was very excited by it and We went to both the bottle and thought it was great and they did do lot for the full gin category. You know they may be interested in botanical. So you know they have a very. They were important. They had a role they definitely to bolt quite beyond. Since then and of course, if you like Bumba, that's but perfectly fine everyone's entitled to like what the Ike. But said the fact that we were we're small and we knew. What was liquid was very good was enough in those days. It's you know that was that was the story Oh there's people and they make Gen and they make it in their house and. And it was quite like you was saying, it had a reputation them for being a bit Things stuffy colonels drank that kind of thing and I remember going to a concert and I always had a little bottle of GIN. In my bag and I saw. Another journalist on you who's like twenty something I said Oh come. Jane, come and taste my journey a little bit and said. Oh. Yes. Really Nice. He said, but I mean how you going to sell it no one drinks gin now. So, that was the problem then more than. Sort of not having a big marketing budget, which we've never had because we got a lot of press on the back of that. We had a thing on the BBC came and did something and. Not, press. One of the things that I find. Fascinating. So excited to talk to you in north London about gin. Gin. I think among all the spirits is so deeply tied to Englishness. Although I. Guess It came over my family says that were descendants of William of orange? You'll find out sentences. That's what they say but I would guarantee. That's probably pretty bullshit. That's a nice thing say. William came over in sixteen, Eighty eight he brought lots of Dutch, Shit Yeah. Including Jin Geneva Geneva. which then turned into Oliver, it put it in his article turned into. Occupying essentially, the space crack cocaine occupied. And of course, one of the reasons they allow people to still jen. WHO STILL SPIRITS? With because, they were with France and they want to stop drinking French Brandy. So. And also, it helped the farmers and the farmers always politically conservative. So there were lots of reasons to encourage because the farmers would be spying set sending wheat. And that's part of the crop rotation that they needed but then it turned into. Landowners. Goes. and then it turned into I. saw this statistically in the like mid eighteenth century when they really started to crack down and you know there was a huge kind of communal outcry against the sins of Gin. They. said that eighty percent of the Jin was drunk here in London and is really like an urban. Phenomenon and it was like the things that this landed aristocracy feared about abandoning. Mob Rule and so on. Like. Somebody said like A. DRINK GIN people think they're kings. And I think of course, lifestyle was really hard. It was really difficult. People are incredibly poor people starved. and. It gave some relief from that. And the other thing which is why I think it's I mean I'll ask you how this works in the modern jen craze. But certainly, the the gin craze was also very gendered right this instead of you know drinking beer from Peter, cups here was like a refined thing that you know the descriptions of the glassware that they would use, and that's also where the focus of the public paranoia about Jan was that moms were like selling their babies. Virginia and You're talking about writers about alcohol but. There's a hogarth print, a gin lane. It's just like a dystopia vision of like a mom neglecting her child, the baby fooling out of her arms and the fact of you know that was commissioned by. My Katainen, which is now I think. One of the breweries because they wanted people to drink beer not gender of the marketing genius of their day commissioned. A total strike hit the ticket. A character. Assassination of GIN. And also the way that they were calling Jennifer and kind of had turned into a woman like. Gin was this. This this female, almost psychotic in seductive presence that was destroying their societies. So fascinating to me. To turn around and then you right where. People who are young and WanNa make sort of bold. Angry statements wouldn't have turned to colonels GIN. Do that this all sorts of things. Goes in cycles. So I think over's you get in the in the forties and fifties people went back to cocktails people started drinking Martinez and the three Martini lunch and that kind of thing. But as their children grew up in particularly in the US as well sort of the counterculture of the sixties and stuff people rejected their parents had and having a cocktail would seem a stuffy formal thing to do. Now we the ritual cocktail is is beautiful but depending on when you're growing up, it seems stuffy whereas grabbing a bill or having a glass of wine just seems. More inclusive I guess yeah. I mean my grandparents could throwback cocktails. Yeah. With you know when I came of age and realized just how much they were drinking and how they were able to then also kind of continue talking on. You know a great meal on the table or something. It's really I think that really was the greatest generation. You know they they have incredible tolerance for Gimblett and Martinez. Many many fingers of whiskey. And of course, actually I think also the thing we get. They would much smaller than. The t the classes because I've got an awfully. Think Thirties to counter and losses and the glasses are quite tiny actually. Really. Yeah. Yeah. None of my grandparents house. MARTINIS. But I I noticed we have this very. has picked out some very classy. Bar where but as you pointed out when he drafted on in front of you like this is a little small, isn't it but it's true. It's like the feels like a miniaturized. Martini glass and by our standards. But this is how they would have been served. And that's how you have three of them lunch. Yeah. That's pretty possible. Spirits lunchtime I mean. I it myself. But I can see that winds quite soporific. Actually I think. A small amount of spurt probably is preferable. I would go for that. To be honest any kind of day drinking in New York? I'm all in favor of because I feel like we really know. Nobody. Does it anymore and I I complained about this very often on this very show but. When I worked at Time magazine when I first came there, we were at Rockefeller Center sort of the spiritual home of the three Martini lunch and we have prodigious Jim Kelly was a legendary editor who ran the magazine when I started there he was the three Martini lunch kind of guy and when I left, he wasn't anymore. Because like you know a sane person, he decided to maybe privilege his health over his his bombast or something and I really i. felt we lost something when our leader and. half-cocked after lunch and doubting out great ideas in just sort of like leading from the front. I'm not sure what exactly on a character change but we all felt like it was the changing of the weather you know. So I don't know how we get back to the three Martini lunch but I'll be there egging people well be lovely but I don't think it's going to happen because. I don't think young people now drink so much anyway. No, that's not what I saw last night in shortage. The bars here. It's so fascinating because the bars close early close at midnight if you're lucky and people, you know all of the foolishness than might. In New York, you might stretch out until three or four in the morning they feel like they really have to compress into eight areas more small amount of time. So. I do remember this from my time in Brixton or whatever. Just just running around the streets around ten eleven o'clock A. Active, the singing, the hugging the chanting vomiting the you know a really. It's still there I yeah. The partly to kind of. Madonna. Say. The young people they they are not drinking so much the GM and a very fussy about. What they put their bodies, which is probably a good thing. I. Shouldn't be. No fuck them they can live live long in the. In the. benighted world we have left to them. Had An American woman came and she came to save need forbid washes waiting to into her flat and I took her out with two friends of mine and we went to the pub, and then it was ten to eleven or something. So my friends went up and all about three more drinks each and she goes with still drinking a glass. Yeah. It's tons of eleven. Can't you see this is the witching hour. Drink start multiplying in front of us we'd just lowly work through them. Yeah, that's I listen who who am I to say because we we as high school certainly had a very a very broken drinking system in the states and are sort of zero tolerance had created all these problems for people under twenty one. Is Strange that life really with you can't drink to twenty one in the states I have zero explanation for it. It doesn't make any sense mean my kids are ten and thirteen and you know the. On whatever they want I mean. It's like it's also a Jewish thing for me like you know you're supposed to give your kids wine at holidays so and frankly I like that's fine. They hate it and they should hate it until they don't hate it and then they can have a little bit and they can have a lot and they can figure out for themselves. But you know the number of young men and women we've sent to war who can neither alcohol. Legally cannot drink. Like you know give them a fuck drink. You're drafting them into the army like you're sending the REF Ghanistan like well, you can get married and. You can get married and you drive a car. Yeah I mean you can do all of this. Incredible. Incredible and very consequential stuff, but you can't have alcohol makes zero sense to me. So we're agreed on that. So. You are not doing just justin anymore. You still make the classic. The sacred. Gin is still the the strong that kind of the fundament of your now home-based distilling empire. But what else are you making an addition to the classic London Dry? We make an organic. Jin made we will export. For healthy drinking you go. There you go snowflakes you hear that it'd be healthy entering June and then we have to think to focus. We only started the vodka because people who have the gender Oh if you made in vodka, we'd by that as well. So we want to do something different. So we used to London dry food car. So it's made in the same way as our Jin doesn't have juniper net and then we inorganic Kerr. So what is the base for full the organic organic food careers cannock weet spirit and through the drive worker it's wheat spirit not organic and it's called the botanical. So it's called some key bad has got a little bit of. Good Universe sorry getting given us. This is the spirits drinking the spirits creating in describing run into conflict. All right. Well, let's start. Let's get that vodka down now. So what is the base for the Vodka English? Wheat English we know potatoes Saito's English. We'd gone and it's the same spirit, the same base that we use function and then London dry has some botanical soon vodka that's actually got some of. Labor. Profile okay. And then you have other genes besides the London. Because we just botanical separately, we can give Jenner particular at high profile of botanical. So we do a pink grapefruit, coriander Cardamon or s I. Don't know if you never or s let sleaze or or is is the root of the Iris Plant and it's used a lot in perfumery. It's the if you have bricks mortar house. Other titles of the bricks, and ours is like the mortar kind of pulls pulls them together in harbour eighty percent of it that's grown goes to France to be in perfume, and it's very expensive has to be hand harvested from. Italy usually. They take it. They they pick it. They take the root, peel it. Dry it and crush it, and that's what you use and it's very floral. Really really floor. Wow. That's astonishing. So how did you come up with making Jin's based on this well? Lot of Jen's because of the fact that it's used as a does it kind of to pull the to to Meld the the flavors, different flavors together. So a lot of people use it. They use people use very little. There are certain sins I can taste it and I think you can taste it in Mata Milas, but it is I think it's very beautiful and So we moved on which is predominantly rs which does really well in Belgium because all Belgian rep over that loves it. So he tells it we just very interesting about sales actually he's evangelizing his own flavor profile. amazing okay. We also liquorice one which we've now. Played around with the recipe and we've made it into an old thompson. So do you know battle? So Tomlin's another category. Like Lindan dry, they tend to be a slightly higher ABC v a little bit her and they sweet reason liquorice and sugar. And they come back from the. Eighteenth Century when spirit was really rough and so people would sweeten it so they could. Knock it back a little more easily because now he's good quality spirit I. You know I have that feeling with an ns or. Or rocky or any of these kind of. Liquors like the this is a descendant of a time when liquor really sucked. Yeah, and this is the only reason why licorice flavored. Alcohol would be acceptable. I cannot understand I. would rather lick the backside of an entire roll of duct tape than Willingly down a anise or licorice flavored. Sweets, and with often flavored didn't think the liquid favor is you'll have to try some go too strong and also we put some distilled orange peel to cut the sweetness slightly and it's just won an award. For the best old Tom Gin in well well, it was the World Jin awards and it won the best old Tom Gin. So I'm assuming that makes it the best in the world. We'll congratulations. I will try it as in the spirit of adventure and trying to expand my own very narrow walls around I mean is it is it does it taste anisette does it I don't think it does. Incredibly. Smooth. But having said that as you know in Scandinavia Navy they love all things liquorice selling really well in Denmark it's doing really Denmark's goodness. Alright. Well, the Danes have some things to answer for they do Greenland and. Okay, fair enough. And you the new bottle that you have coming out is is A. Bitter base, it's a lacouer. That's IT'S A it's. It's so diverse EPA Cup because the other thing we also do we make three moves using English wine and we made those in collaboration with assange Plassey dukes hotel so. We have made our engine. We made our own the Moose. So we make a Rosso amber and an extra dry, which is under uses all his Martinez wherever you call it you always get off. And we thought if we had something like Campari. I'll have to say something like Campari, we could make our own Negro knees. So we made we weren't. So we made Cup. And it makes a great Negroni, but it also affects us for the news at rules in common garden. Do you know rules don't know? Oh, you should go some it's. It's London's oldest restaurant. Okay and people like Graham Greene's go there and. Very literally. Yes. I can see I can censor the theme. You want your books and your spirits. So. So we made we found out, it may do it makes a really lovely spirits. Obviously, spritzers are hugely hugely popular so. What new bottle and that's we're trying within a push as a Spritz I love that. So you're essentially. Seizing the means of Negroni production for yourself, you don't WanNa have to rely on an outside source to get this. Wet Can people do in the United States to find to find secret in all of these secret vodkas and so on. So that is a place in a cold flask wine and. Whiskey. something we call it floss. And they ship will leave the states they have most of our stuff and they should leave the states all bounty hunter in. NAPA. Auto focus on the state's as quiet down a bit but we are. Aiming to have more of an impact that got. but you're all over Europe. We all need to come here the for some were they can order output We'll. We'll put the links in the show notes and and so people can. Get their own and I think for now we should probably. Do a little bit of that boundary expansion off off Mike. Love, the taste, some of the. World's best old Tom. GIN and. That I. Really appreciate it such a such a pleasure to come to the place in London that makes the best London Dry Gin. And it's It's like this is how you want to stealing to always be. Secondly thank you very much. Thank you. The trip is hosted by me Nathan Thornburgh. Episode Taffy Milkin Yahtzee was our editor Emily Marinov, our producer Alexis our online editor music by Danny, automated episode artwork by Daisy de show artwork by Adele Rodriguez. Executive producers and MAC ruling also of roads and kingdoms. UPDATES since we reported this episode in the before before times. The price that Japan has actually stayed about the same for less than forty dollars. You can get a bottle of some of the world's Best Jin free shipping in the UK still available in the US from Flask or bounty hunter and California. There are links in the show notes as there is to Oliver. Belo's roads and kingdoms feature the new Jim Craze. And in big news for Hillary and E. and they've actually moved their vacuum distillery out of the playroom, their house and into a brand new bottle shop and tasting room in Highgate. This summer another update I know I slagged anise-flavoured spirits in this episode and for that I have to apologize actually ever since moving to Queens last month I've been swimming in a gorgeous ocean of The preferred drink of Lotus like me. Next week on Thursday, the release of our previously paywall episodes from London continues. It is the last of the London episodes damn at all, but it's good one with not. Whose Life Story from his Childhood in Zambia to his unexpected love affair with Mexican Zine has helped bring serious Taco culture to London now. Oslo. We will meet you there.