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EP 25 - THE LOST FINALE with Steven Cohen

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Hello and welcome. Welcome to the PODCAST. Shut up I love it. I'm Sasha filer and I'm Lorraine Graefin right we're recording for you all from the island of misfit toys. Merry Christmas Ed. This is a podcast where people are free to speak at length about that thing that they love so so very much that other people. Maybe don't love or aren't aware of the eight so bad that the Internet is filled with hatred for this particular subject. Yeah maybe they hate it so much that. If you're a person who loves that thing you quiet the voice inside you that says that you love it you just keep it to yourself but not not on this policy. podcast you let it out outlet it out. Make a hole in your throat with Pan Spoiler alert. Yeah do with today's subject it sure does and y'all will yell how much you love it oh listeners. You're probably wondering what's going on with this. I know Sasha's Voice Lorraine she's not a host of this podcast usually not usually but today I'm a guest host so that I could welcome to the show a very special guest right area. We we are. We're in it. We're deep in it though. One the only on this planet Senate Stephen Aaron Cohen. Thank you for having me Stephen So nice to have you here sitting right across from me instead of next to me now we did not do a bio for you which I feel a little bit bad about. We should do it now. You Guys WanNa freestyle too. I'M GONNA phreatic. Ah By for Steven. Cohen born in Maryland born in Maryland and Joanne Cohen. Yes brother Lauren. Cohan yes unmarried spouse to Meghan right. Are you married no okay. Just checking over two very beautiful cats hoping thank an actor model of beautiful calendar. The y'all should buy yes and it really great improviser. Actually I would say one of the best improvisers that I ever got a chance to play with same here. That's one of the most supportive improvisers who also does really great characters and is capable of bringing in film and Literature Right on that stage and I truly mean it. Yeah me too when I sort of unofficially quit Improv. Like one of the things that was like sad and made it hard for me to make. That choice was like Oh. I won't be in scenes with Stephen Anymore. That's annoying but I've come to find that one. I really like about being in scenes with Stephen Stephen Watching Stephen Work so I don't lose that by me. Not Doing Improv. I just watch and be very funny and talented so so please come here shows Lorraine who I am never ask you to come. That's how you lose the Stephen. Would you tell us what are we going to talk about today. Here on the podcast so I have brought for conversation the series finale of the television series lost on ABC. What a topic Bush Shou generally the show lost is generally well-received received right but the series finale is not Some people regarded as one of the worst finale of all time. Let's get into it. I feel I want to just say I feel like I signed the two of you and near impossible task impassable passable Stephen which is to watch the final episode of a show that is so steeped in its own mythology or what some people might describe his bullshit for the two of you to kind of jump into that final episode I know is a big ask I would describe us. Lost the one hundred percent and we were talking about this before we recorded. Lost is an appropriate title for this show. It's the one thing that I like about this show. I like that it's title is appropriate is exactly how it feels like. Even those people were obscene. All hundred and twenty one episodes of this six season-long show Dave. They might feel lost at the very end watching this network TV series right now. That was not my experience. I gotta say when I watched the finale yeah someone who had watched all of the preceding one hundred twenty episodes. I was with it. This was two thousand nine right. The finale aired so I was in college. I don't I know my parents are in the room. We should just get that out and there's a lot of second life episode. We're doing a whole family show for you. All Father Cowan. Did you also also watch lost with everybody. He said no Yeah he father Coen. We've always called the pre he. He he did not often join in the TV watching. That was mostly me. My mother and sister sister sister brother-in-law Cohen. This was this predates brother-in-law Cohen E. Certainly when lost premiered in in two thousand five we were all definitely watching it together. You know eventually my sister went to college and so I think at that point just my my mother and I right all right. So let's talk about it. Let's talk about first of all. What have we done in terms of research? I recommend it some episodes for you guys to watch not the words recommend recommend. I recommend a couple of six. I lear- overwhelming. I acknowledged that it was that it was probably not going to happen. Right But even the six episodes that I recommended would not be enough to fully understand what the scratched the surface purpose. I also recommended that you guys watch like an eight minute. Super Cut waited by a robot areas a loved. One thing that I do like about the homework that's even gave us. It didn't so much. Help me understand what was going on like in story it did help me. It prepared me for just like you're just you're gonNA be confused and that's okay don't expect I learned to be normal the main thing. I was hoping that that homework would give to you. Guys was that the pilot will give you the general idea which is that these would have been the dead pilot pilot in the pilot would give you the. The general premise of these people were on transnational flight. The plane crashes on an island. They have no idea where they are if anyone's going to help them. And then over the course of several seasons you learn to understand well you learn to get a sense of the weirdness of this island and then I recommended that you guys watch the first episode of the final season because they change the format for the final season the way that the show works in season one through season. Four is it structured around flashbacks so each care. Each episode focuses on a character. You see a moment from their life in flashbacks aspects interspersed throughout the episode. So it might be The character of Kate Evangeline Lilly you find out she was being arrested and extradited back to the the. US when this plane crashed. And so you see why she got arrested. In Tacoma alert for laws. She killed her father right and so we didn't know that she had a lot of spoilt by the away from that. Maybe this is episode description territory foil down. Yeah we're GONNA talk about the finale. So yeah I think the laws right now go wash hundred episodes of the show in comeback or don't and just be on our level I think he will be Gouda. Person Is Never Watch law. Do My drab today. You'RE GONNA WANNA watch it afterward onto him out. We'll leave that up to the listener. The Stephen so yeah. We didn't know that Kate had killed her father. Before season six. We learned that in season six. You learn that in the first season. That's what I thought doc because I remember like right away you know that she's being arrested for something surely they would have told us this earlier. You okay so I'm just describing the basic structure of in Season in I think the season four finale you are watching the episode and it seems like it's a regular. Jack Flashback episode. Jack Doc. Is this doctor played by Matthew Fox who was extensively the the main character of the show. I I'll acknowledge right now. He's probably the least interesting character on the show and and that's a problem. I remember watching this episode thinking. Oh God another Jack Flashback. We've seen enough of him at a certain point. They had no idea what to do with his flashbacks. They didn't Matthew Fox. has these really dumb for a white. A person to have like tribal tattoos. Okay the actor in real life. Yeah they didn't episode where the flashbacks explained how the character got those now. That's how much they were reaching for story for this character. And you're watching this whole episode where the flashbacks are like. He's an alcoholic and he's he's very upset about something and then you get to the end of the episode and he is going to jump off a bridge and Kate shows up right. And you're like oh no we're like this. be a flashback. Each other before the plane crash. And so I I remember that moment being like Oh my God this. This is a flash forward. I ran upstairs to tell either my mom or my sister's doing a flash you all were wrong because it was flash sideways different right. That's that's yeah. Yeah we're GONNA get there because this is a flash forward. We find out that at a certain point Jack Jack. Kate and a few other people are going to get off this island so then season five is about that. They've gotten off the island. The rest of the people are still on the island. I went to the island as time travel. Yes so the people who stayed on the island are now it's going on and it's about the oceanic annex six. They're called the ones who got off the right back to not have been mixed with Ocean's eleven not speaking views the oceanic six are. They're they're swarmed by media media and they are all in alignment they're going to make a lie to protect the people on the island. Yeah I don't understand went up. I don't remember I just don't understand why they would need to lie about anything. We'll so part of it is. There's character named Charles with more who as everyone knows is penny's father the character penny that we all know Desmond's love who's Desmond will talk about. Dustin Dustin Hoffman Lookalike Desmond. Yeah I see that all right So I think of Scottish doesn't have Charles would more more wants to find the island to exploit its properties. And so I think and he's willing to do that and he doesn't care what happens to the people on the island. So maybe that's why the oceanic lying about it. Anyway they get back to the island but there in the seventies with the people on the island and they they ha- there's a bomb there like a hydrogen bomb and the idea is if we blow up this bomb now in the seventies none of this will have happened and the plane will never have crashed. Everyone's lives will be better. Everything will be good. And so the finale of that we go too far past what you've just said let's just take a second. If this bomb goes off none of this will have happened if this bomb goes off on this. Seventy s right and destroys the island in the seventies. He's than the plane would not have been able to crash the plane right because there is a force field inside of the island right. A lot of mystical stuff happening. Silence silence jumping back. Does move weird supernatural aspect to the island and by this whole logic just an explosive will make all of that supernatural. Stuff go away. I don't know what that was their logic. There was Hydrogen bomb and then that will make this territory. This island ceased to be powerful. They beloved friends and family members died. They want until Ryan right and so the season season five ends with the bomb being that. Yeah Yeah and WHO's the young woman's penny that's down. There is Anyhow I'm I forget her name but she has decided like she he falls down into this well or whatever it is this whole in the island the whole the whole and she realizes okay. I have to be the one. Wake Mike Sorry Juliet. She'd pounds on the bomb and it explodes so she's basically sacrificing herself. The screen goes to white and that is how that season season ended. which is a big deal because up to this point? We've seen lots of sudden smash two black And we're not sure what that means. We really we still don't totally know what that means. But this for the first time is smashed to white and so the reason. I suggested that you guys watched the first episode of the sixth season. The final season reason is because that episode establishes the new version of the flashbacks slash flash forward which they referred to as a flash sideways. And the way that is established in this first episode is leading you to think that this is an alternate universe that was created when the bomb exploded because we see not all the characters on the plane but we see the plane land at lax rather than crashing on the island and so for the rest of the season. There's kind is to storylines happening in tandem. You're seeing the characters still on the island right. The ones that were in the seventies are now backing the president. They don't know why they don't know what's going on. And we're also seeing in this flash sideways. Perhaps what would have happened if the island hadn't crashed the plane and to my point that exploding the the island does not end the supernatural abilities of the island right. It does whatever this is like a break in time right and those people are still there right then. Island is still there. Those people are still in there like how oh like we just exploded it. And they don't know what to do with all this shrapnel and so I was I was hoping you guys would get the sense of the idea of this flash sideways so that you can understand that. It's there for in the finale where they reveal what the flash sideways actually is but lorraine you. I think you've mentioned that you had seen some episodes. Yeah Yeah when it was first coming out with super popular so I was trying to give him a shot. But I kept falling off and every once in a while I'd start again because like I want to study 'cause I wanna be a good writer so I'm like God all these. These people love this show. I should probably like it and I just I keep falling off like every time Give it another try even for just doing this homework assignment like Guy Watch earlier episodes but I would stop midway through and just be like. This is a waste of time. I should just do the finale. I even tried to watch that first episode that you recommended for season six and I couldn't get through the whole thing. I hate this so much. I don't like the show. I think we get the general sense of what the show law says whether you've seen China or not. What is it about this finale? What were the expectations? Because for my research on the online fandom right be bowl like were worried. The fans were worried that this is purgatory. We're like whatever situation like a religious type of thing so what did end up being. Well no the hell no no. Oh they were bad the whole time and I read a thing that was like that is a misconception. The next time you hear someone say oh they were dead the whole time you gotta tell them No tell them tell to really understand the full context of this whole purgatory thing yet to go back to the first season one of the prevailing theories stories when the first season happened was that the island was purgatory. And I think probably that was right. I think probably at the time that was what they were doing. Because there were characters and people who are inexplicably on this island to definitely shouldn't be There's there's character in the show named John Locke played by -Tario Quinn. He's my favorite character understandable. I think a lot of people felt that way when the show aired he his story is he became a paraplegic before his life on the island. He's in a wheelchair but when they land on the island can now walk and he had a very tumultuous relationship with his father and at a certain point in the first season his father appears on the islands of fathers in the show issues is a big part of right some characters have the same Father Orlando. Yeah yeah he didn't even watch it and it's never really explained how that at character got to be on the island. I think that was the plan that the island would-be purgatory. And I think the audience figured out and sew Damon Aiman Lindelof Carlton cuse had to be like okay. We gotta do something else. Now shake it out right now and so now. We get to the final season. The finale as I was watching the finale I wrote down a few things that back in the day. You new cats about August I had a flash four when I was watching it to us doing this episode saleslady. He's like well okay. One podcast with session. But I can't make this lawsuit awesome. Sasha and yet they know met Lorraine maybe this is like in the finale when something happens and then it's like Doc Steven Steven Oh thousand nine year old I found three so I- I listed some things that that when I heard them. I was like the session. Lorraine got any idea what this means. Just things like Jacob who is not a character that we see at all in this episode. Got To be honest. We don't see Jacob a lot in the show uh-huh tired it was just like they all decided at some point on a show in an episode. I didn't see that they are all going to be Christian because that seemed sounds like something that was happening everyone now is Christian and they all go to the same church there that they read in the Bible about Jacob and Jacob Bob it is written. He's in charge of the island and he picks candidates right. That's another word I wrote down here. Yeah I don't frigging another another thing I wrote down smokey slash smoke monster. I mean I've done my research. What's up what's going long? entrees monster becomes like man becomes smoke monster and then becomes law so titus well overplayed this character called the man in Iraq Jacob and the man in black back kind of like these avatars for good and evil on the island and At a certain point after they get off the island John Locke wants to go back. He's now back in a wheelchair because not on the island anymore but no one else will go back with them. Jack Rejects Him. No one else will go back to the the island so he is going to kill himself but before he can another character kills him for him. What yeah so the carrot? We're talking Jack talking about John Locke John Locke is going to kill himself. He's GonNa kill them so he's going to kill himself because he needs to go back to the island and no one will will go with him. This isn't season five. Okay leaving the and before. He's going to kill himself. Another character character comes in and kills him and that is the character. Ben Linus played by Michael Emerson. who kind of the onscreen antagonised? Throughout the second through sixth season the man in black slash. The smoke monster's the big picture antagonised. Ben Is is the leader of this group called the others who already live on the island has got some machinations going on. They go back to the island. They're bringing John Locks Fox body with them because they feel like they have to bring him with them and when they get back to the island John Locke is alive again but then we find out. He's not really really alive because his body is still in the box. The person they've thought was John Locke is the smoke monster is the man in black he has kind of embodied John Locke and and together he and Ben Killed Jacob. Oh but Jacob chooses a jack to kind of be his replacement Avatar of good. So that's why everybody's like so afraid of John Locke in the finale. Because he's not John Line stuff on the island is no longer John Law I was. I was so confused kind of a little bit of addict before too right. He was He's he's entitled White Guy feels like he should have more than he has but in the flash sideways that is John Law Right so it's definitely confusing and back is his doctor after. But they don't actually like know each other. That's the flash sideways so let's talk about the flash sideways just a little bit. Get into it at this point. I hope you guys the listeners have soon why would you continue at this point. It's just us. It's okay but I am getting a lot out of this so I don't Russ us. Yeah in the flash sideways. We're seeing these kids. Because they didn't crash on the island they'd never got to know each other so they're all. Aw All of the characters are Kinda like keep crisscrossing with each other. But they don't have the context anymore at a certain point desmond who is as Sasha described. The Dustin Hoffman Looking Guy. He has a near death experience on the island and he wakes up in the the alternate timeline. He's like Oh my God brother now here in an alternate time line and so he has woken up uh-huh and he starts going to wake the other people up. Yeah he goes to Kate. Well I find Hurley okay because Hurley then kind of becomes like his partner and in waking people up right together they go and they start collecting all of the survivors. In this alternate timeline and and the way that works essentially is when the survivors kind of see the person that they have the deepest connection with on the island it all starts coming back to them. Oh who is a bright and and also I what I love from these montage like these are flash. Backs is what we call them right there flashing back to their time on the island so in these flashbacks. It's the show showing us what they consider to be the most meaningful meaningful parts of any relationship any life experience. It's a lot of voters kissing. It's just kissing The look you give someone before you kiss them. mm-hmm they'll look you give to someone after you've kissed them to using the using the rock to kill somebody who the good times and also childbirth a lot of like a little baby feed. I feel like that's a good image for any good flash verschoor yeah lots of this. TV Stuff Jeff. This is one thing that I like about the finale as someone who watched all the episodes I find those moments affecting. That's GONNA come up a lot. Yeah I like that. Like when you for instance there are. There are two Korean characters on the show. Sun and Jin Play by Eugene Kim and Daniel Day Kim by the finale they have died on the island their characters are dead so we'll see them in the flash flash sideways because son is pregnant and they are at the doctor's office they girl spoiler alert. It's a girl. They see the Sonogram on a gram of their baby for the first time and that makes both of them remember everything and that is to me for me. That's a big moment because I have these six years of experience with those characters. The thing that I like is the way that Kate gets her memories back. Kate spends a a lot of the show being like torn between Jack by Matthew Fox and Sawyer. Josh terribly miscast is cast but I think so he was. The breakout gets a little more roff later. But in the pilot he's like clean cotton model guy. He yeah he he looks like he's trying. I feel this way also about the Charlie character where I'm like. Oh I don't believe any edge to you. Play by famously. Played by a hobby. Dominant Lesser Hobbit one of the minor. He's the guy that I would like cheat off in pre calc like he's the guy who I would tell my mom going to the dance with but I'm really going with someone else like needles in the battles we go with the guys to smashing the rock rock smasher but but then sawyer the vibe I get from him is you know I don't like he's like stringy hair. He's grown like I didn't pilot though very smooth. Yeah Very Smooth Smith and the pilot. I imagined that he smells bad. Like I imagine that's kind of appeal to. Hey Yeah there's also nausea to the musk. Yeah thank you. Thank you for helping me work through anyway. Feelings of. Yeah yeah they spend most of the series kind of playing tug of war with her Jack and Sawyer. Do I like that. The thing that makes Cape remember remember her life on the island is not shaking hands with jacker or something. It's delivering the baby. Claire played by. Emily Ravine cheese drastic. I like her transformations the most. I feel like that would be me. I mostly Listrik. Little sweetheart got peanut butter on the plane crash and she's so innocent and she knew she needs so much care and then by the end. She's fucking she's like Frizzy frizzy. She's got a gun as just like ooh. She's in the Bush so kate delivered her baby on the island and in the flash sideways. Kate again delivers the baby. And that is what makes kate wake up. And I like that that it's not jack but it's this. That is cute. Experience that she got it was like almost very radical feminists and then it's like all right. It's it's like if a woman isn't I'm going to have a deep connection with a man. It's going to have to be with childbirth. Whatever it's Aaron Aaron who who? WHO's the baby named after? WHO's Erin me? My middle name should not issue that okay. So that's that's it's mainly what's happening in the flash sideways people. These people are finally waking up and they keep talking about like this meeting. They're going to have on the island in like the present a the conflict between Jack as Avatar good and John as the Avatar evil. That wraps up what's happening there You know they fight and good the guys win and they saved the island and most of the people who wanNA leave Guetta leave but the real meat meet the. I think the real reason that this finale is controversial is what's happening in the in the flash sideways George Church right so everyone is waking waking up there so happy they're crying. They're hugging the PEOP- these people that they forgot they they knew jack is is is very repress about it all he he he can't accept this kind of other world he keeps getting these quick flashes but he rejects them. Finally Kate approaches him and says says come with me and she brings him to this church where everyone wait concert right. She approaches him right. Charlie's band Charlie former heroin addict. His band playing Lesser Hobbit less for some reason. This concert is meaningful to all of these characters like everybody wants to go. Everybody wants to go see this punk show but also a guys playing the piano music unites us all and it's important for Jack to bring his son Sunday. This concert like a son that is not that doesn't exist. Does it come up. I never saw him. John Locke tells him his son isn't Real mm-hmm. Yeah people keep saying things like that. Your son's not real. Kate Brings Jack to the church. The reason Jack was on this plane in the first place is he went to Australia to get his father's body because his father died and he's bringing his he's bringing his father back. She's sideways. He's he's bringing he's bringing the body back and so the the plane crashes in the body kind of disappears right so a big thing for Jack is like why do we say like you've just remember Lorraine did. Did you watch the little worry. I'm remembering like from the earlier episodes like when I used to try to watch it. You know what I'm saying and it was like yeah. That was the whole thing because his dad had just died. There was some stuff that needed to be reconciled between them but his die too soon. You know also thing that you you don't learn that his dad is clear stat but they don't know why why not. I know it's just like like here's the thing that I don't like so much about the dally and also for the series. Is there too many coincidences lay. I Hate Radio Girl Network. Television's bill just feel like if you're gonNA lean into this like supernatural magical space than these just like regular ask. Coincidences aren't going to cut it. Like make get magic then like bring me a wizard like like make it fantasy doers. Mocking is all out to say all over this. I'm just not interested interested in hand. By the way did you know players data jerks the same. Lorraine did you watch. The finale did did and so then we get this scene. Where where Jack and His dad talk right there at the church in this clash fattest he turns around his dad clears uses woefully? Remember it right. So in the finale in the flash sideways data still dead. Jack was still bringing the body over from from Australia though the body gets lost. And by the finale. The bottle pot intended finale. The body has been found. al-Din it's at this church and Jack Walks in there. And as he touches the casket he starts to finally he's remembering starts to finally wake up to the Rock and smashing couple of heads with it right. I just realized this because when John Locke says I hope someone does for you. What what you just did for me the way John Wakes up as Jack has fixed his spine? Ron Can walk again which I don't think he was planning on right. The Dr Dre I think because he was really surprised. I don't think I did so. I was thinking like this viewer. Was the surgery to remove his appendix. So shot that he's legs are working wasn't the one of the options that that's what probably would be the outcome of the surgery. Doctors doing usually say that. Like if you're like I'm feeling better. Doctors like no highly unlikely I is practically possible. Lacks removing this says Thompson feelings. No I think you're still in there. Yeah that was a really weird exchange and he keeps having this mysterious blood showing up which is like showing that like like the the bleeding of the two different timelines or kind of come together. The bleeding really doesn't like own you didn't make any said he's bleeding. It was really tiny it was it was like it was like. Yeah like Look Shave Shave. Yeah so yeah so. Obviously these two storylines are like overlapping laughing to the point. Where like Jack can't denied anymore? He's already had some sideways. He touches the casket. Here's here's the throat. Clearing he turns around and there's his dead father's I think we've seen before we've seen. His name is Christian person. Christmas bird which makes me want to throw out care. Medicare they lamp shade Eh. What did he say he said? You'll have a funny name. No he does Christian shepherd for a little note there like we have to have it for the funny people in the audience is another huge pet peeve of mine like the same thing I'm saying about too many coincidences a really hate it when writers are like I'm going to come up with a funny name and then all the other characters go. That's your name three Improv. Probably yeah four anyway. So go on Shepard Still Win Lorraine over try. Oh Yeah I feel. She's on the fence and they they have this conversation where Jack and the audience now understand this is not an alternate time line. This is is a place a purgatory. Like place nobody says the word purgatory. Now they don't say it that the key these characters created with one another a place for where they would all go. After they died to to reunite because was the best time to spend together planet earth was with each other not the best but the Lord I had to kill it this four of those people not the best time but the most important thing. That is something I like about it. Is that these these these people love him hate him. Were so important to each other in this time that that they're now indelibly connected to who each other isn't that a metaphor for the show itself audience whether it's bad or good so many hours watching it. Yeah kind of become a part interview. Truly you can never left you stephen. Sasha you crying yeah. They accept except Jack accepts that he has died and that together with all of his best friends also lockwood tried to kill him all they they all go to he they thought okay new lock. It's the good law. Its GOODLETTSVILLE old. Lock it's like old livestock. Who again love love him or hate him? Good or bad h True Jack. And Locke really important to each Heller and now they all go to the same church they meet in the same same church. Although very important thing about this structure in the back room where Jack Stat clears his throat washes utters. There's your there's a stained glass window with all different types of religious iconography also because otherwise how are we getting there. There's a star of David non-christian which most of us are this. Is this like even worse. Because I didn't notice that it's like the fact that they would even try. That is Li- like that guy. Got In questions. And they're like cash out and never being television again. Because this was a lot of people are exhausted by the time. They're right. Finale this is so wild so but they're like sitting there all right and then there's a baby still in there I'm like what is her baby. The baby stop being a baby for. I always shitting my Not Perfect Yeah. I certainly don't understand why Aaron is in the church with them because he grows up to be a boy on the island. I I don't really get what's going to happen now to characters like Ben Ben Linus is pointedly not going into the church with everybody buddy else. He's kind of sitting outside and he makes it seem like he still has work to do before he can move onto this next place but Christian describes it as a place that that they created together so if all of these people are leaving does this place existed. Also like Jack's son in the flashlight. Jack has a son with Juliet. They were previously married in the flash sideways and they had the sun but he's not real he didn't exist in the real world. So is he like a matrix style. Program I don't know I how many people in the flash always our programs and how many people are yeah. Ben Is a part of the program because because it's like there are background actors like at the concert. There are people at the hospital. Like there's a whole world that's built out to exist for these characters. And I think ben his answer Larry to their main Dang so. You don't think that's really Ben Seoul. No I think that that's the idea of banning percent. Those friends share interesting. COMITE doing okay. Maybe I can't remember if if Ben ever wakes up in the flash sideways the way that the other characters do because when we see him in the finale he's he's he clearly remembers life on the island. Yeah I can't remember if there's an episode where he wakes up the way like Hurley wakes up right but but there's it's also other characters in this flash sideways that our main characters on the show. The Guy who playing the piano played by Jeremy Davies. Daniel Faraday the characters name like he was a main character on the show for a while. He has seen with this red haired woman whose name I can't remember. She was also on the island and that they're the only two people in that scene. And so that to me makes me feel like they are not programs right. Those are the real souls. So that's essentially the episode right. Well well then everything you do. It's like a slow fade to white instead of smashed white which makes us feel like. They've ascended into heaven or some or don't afterlife and they've left all of this unpleasantness behind to us to live with which I did say working figure it out. Eight does really suck that like in purgatory. You still like have to give birth to a baby like that. Made me really sad to find out. I was like that really sucks. Like in order for you know wake up and realize the state of things. You're having a fake baby. You're having real child or or a real baby or a real baby and that baby is being born into death. That's so's dark if you think about it like that's really messed up thing that those writers came up with even deliver that booy boy at some point we got verschoor. Yeah that's I don't like that. Even why was lost finale. So disappointing to most Americans. Well okay so I think there's a few things going on. First of all. A lot of people were confused about the purgatory thing. Even though I think I I don't know what I don't know what you tell me what you guys think i. I think it's made clear in the episode that like this church is purgatory. The island is not but a lot. A lot of people. Read the finale as confirmation that the whole thing has been purgatory which I think is an incorrect reading so a lot of people push back against that another thing. That was a problem for a lot of people is the questions that were left unanswered. A lot of people wanted answers. Like what is the island or why we're there. Polar bears certain plenty of questions that are reasonable to have for me. I don't need those questions. Answered a kind of to compare it to a recent movie that I know Sasha did not enjoy but lorraine and I've talked about us us. The movie us has a lot of unanswered questions. At the end. You know you you don't know like you never get the answer to uh. Where did these people come from right? But I don't think you need that answer to connect with or larvae or not connect with religion as big of a theme from the very get. Go yeah the show in the first season presents Jack and John John Locke as in similar to the way that by the final episode they become avatars for good and evil in the first season. They're kind of avatars of the the scientific approach to life and the faith based approach to life. Jack is a doctor. He's he's very keyed into logic whereas John Locke has had this miraculous experience where he cannot walk again and for him. It's just about staying true to the to the essence of this island and and that is a big major point conflict for the two of them throughout the series. And I think I guess certainly I was thinking about this as watching the episode by the by by the end. We're looking a lot more at the faith end especially considering that it ends in a church with them ascending into heaven but I think the show by the and has kind of made a case for the two being necessary with each other. That science alone is not enough. Faith alone is not enough. You have to bring these ideas together in order to not understand the world but to definitely not understand. Yeah Yeah but to accept the world so scientist fix a spinal injury or spinal situation with science and then all of that was not not real that was in purgatory. Yeah those sites there. I'm really lost me too. I actually am not even going to concern myself with understanding it a lot because I think like is possible. I feel like you know as far as I'm GonNa understand and I actually I don't think my brain is like likes his puzzles like I mean you'll the puzzle man like you like your puzzles. So maybe has to do with the way your brain where I was working there I even would like but then I have. I like my boyfriend is a puzzle man to is the kind of man rise among man. And then there's the puzzle man don't necessarily want to put a gender label on on it but I do I am I am just doing okay for men only there. There's a possible woman there too but I'm just talking about demand around me. I just felt like there are too many characters and too many like complicated relationships and so I was like I hate this but puzzle man Stephen Aaron following would would probably be able to track all the time they puzzle. Remember yeah puzzle men Jay Hill Jurors Hunter. What's his name? He like eleven years old. Learn his last name. Monday is is the middle name part of the brain really so you said his middle name. Yeah I thought you forgot his name. No I did jail hundred okay. It is a puzzle man right. He's puzzlement in his heart like big time. It doesn't spend his days doing puzzles but he would and he could love loved. I lost was unhappy at the beginning at the end was unhappy and I think it had to do with unanswered questions speaking for him but at least that's the one point of reference. I mean you know Middle Name you can speak for the person who are like you know has been a fan of the show like and so he gets US appointed pointed about a couple of things one is that yes he thinks what now purgatory is the whole show like there were only purgatory the whole time so that I can see misunderstanding. Sounds like he's ill-informed and but you know TV like me saying Sasha filer normal name like you know. It's like TV. Has To be a little bit. Not Her real last name to my dad sorry. TV is like has to be kinda clear about genre like it doesn't they have to be super clear genre. Could be like what's going on. He can't just like they just jammed everything in there. And so for J for example he really was into the angle of Dharma and government conspiracy. And like what's going on other June experience experiment people and there was a lot of like hands up might be going on so Dan. They're like not resolving any of that this becomes not important and they haven't gone so I think it's like the kind of give a little bit of peace for like all this kind of different genres and setups to people like two different audience members and then like kind of like didn't make a meal they didn't make the real meal out. It was just like a snack snack. They gave a bunch of snacks. You feel gross. After I had a snack but I'm fucking of liked it when I was chewing doing this. Yeah but I don't feel good now not feeling good and it's dinnertime and I feel like a little bit full but like bad. Yeah but then this guy next to me is eating his snack right now. While I'm starving and I will never eat another snack again in that ever GonNa have any more snack. No comes in for nothing they just reliable door. Shot it the window in front of you and put the closed sign. Yeah yeah you left outside with with your coins. Yeah I agree. And then also not just that they didn't commit to a genre but the other thing is messaging so like Stephen is saying okay if we're going to say oh. This is a conversation about science versus religion. You kind of have to be clear about what you're saying because look TV's ABC's all fun and all but it's about ad sales and who we're GONNA sell our commercial space to and a lot of these companies would probably issue issue Christmas Christians. I think happy Hannukah very proud not only merry Christmas Hannukah Lorraine is it a we this year do Christmas and Hanukkah overlap. You mean to call eve mother fall in just so we unto you this year in time in this rip through time on this. I lied ways. We're on this sideways. Happy everything. Happy Hanukkah Merry Christmas. Happy Christmas if you're the Harry Potter Lonzo kwanzas does coming in two days. Have Fun with that everybody And you know when you get to it happy Pearl because that's that's fun one. That's the one if it were up to me like people would figure out how to scoop Parham into the winter harm worm is a Jewish holiday that uh happens in March march but in jumped not unlike the island. Well all Jewish holidays. Do jump around in time because because Jewish holidays go by the lunar calendar right I I I think lorraine he just wants to show. I want because that one it matches more like what Christmas is and like Hannukah's story doesn't match it as well L. and there's nothing that we can do about it. The holidays fall where they fall. But they're all bullshit though by the will is no god. There's no Oh God well don't ask me ask Christian Shepherd Anyway Stephen. I'm sorry that you asked me because I this show and me. We like can't even find a place to like have a coherent conversation and that is so frustrating. But here's the the thing I not only did. I ask an impossible task of the two of you which is to review a series finale of a he heavily serialized realized show without watching every episode leading up to it. Not only did I ask impossible things you but I've also retroactively. Ruined the idea the ever watching the show now. Because you're you didn't do it. But here's the thing. Sasha I think if you had watched the show from the first I I watched the pilot and I said to myself do I want. Here's the thing. Sasha Sasha is my name Sasha. Here's the thing that's how it gets really start saying. Sasha Chuck Fiber to me. This is a Stephen King book this show and this finale never find himself in such a fucking mess at the end are you. That's all Stephen King books and in a mess. My Gosh. You're so right Stephen. No He's right but the thing that differences for some reason we trust Stephen King. All you're like yeah take because they're I don't feel disappointed after just without was well. But that's that's the thing I think. If you guys had had the opportunity to watch from the beginning and experienced experience the whole thing I think it would feel more like a Stephen King Book than than what I forced you guys to do this neutrally by this is in the vein of one of his books. That's like big expansive cast and epic scale something like the standard like under the Dome and I would say almost all of his books and in a mess for me except like Kerry wraps up well but he doesn't know how to end a book. Because does which you know. Sasha lead into the instance from happy with the ending all right fine like his endings from reading on writing though. Sasha you you know that. He doesn't outline right he just starts writing and so not recommended not recommended. TV writings. No and definitely why not. This is the way you WanNa do it. Like the island is a is a magical so by the time he gets to the end he has to figure out the ending rather than having the figured out already and that that to me is a big part of why this feels like a Stephen might. Yeah I'll buy it and not all Austin King. TBN moved off as good usually. It's bad facts. Although I wouldn't now I'm not comparing this to a Stephen King movie or television show. Good time to meet me turn on unless you something else you WanNa say reactions in I you know like like how I seen anything for. So long. Game of thrones where I mean like any game of thrones is a really good example because like The approach to the writing changed drastically in the middle title of it. The fandom is like show strong. Either you're with them or you're against them like it's very task and it went on for a really long time and a lot of people were disappointed in the way that it ended. But maybe that's that's a really great point that's actually a really good point that What you're saying is the finale was very controversial? For Game of thrones maybe nearly as is controversial is for lost finale. Doing an episode on that those interesting So I if I take a game of thrones not necessarily show that our loved right not necessarily. It's a show that grew to like a lot so while people were like maybe obsessed with it from beginning took me long time to get into it but when I got into it I was always in the solid way. There's just happy with it. Pretty happy with it and when we came to last season I fucking loved it to me. The the last season of game of thrones is the best that I could ever imagine like loved loved loved capital else. So if we're not talking about game of thrones is the TV show show but of the finale for big fan crazy TV show event television Van Television right live event television. Actually in this day and age people people would like watch it online. As it's like the first moment it's available online right right I would say that. The finale of game of thrones is a nine for me. Yeah the finale of lost and that's considering that I did not like the the show or the acting or music okay or the rioting okay or the way aged okay is probably a three I again i. It was easy for me to speak for my Irish. Our never seen never experienced it. Dylan see it when those things maybe didn't look age. It's just very hard for me to love in network drama me. It's really hard like there's network half hour comedies. They're upset with which is Last Man on earth I got to think one of the best comedies of all now. But like there's there's just nothing there's just nothing there and I was like sure gave it to me like when was watching it and is just rate. It's just not my cup of tea okay. So here's going to be the way I set up my scale and then either is plastic surgery that that lady. Kate had a lot I did. She know her feel. He'll face look plastic. That's I was always like interested in bays in this series and also her hair like if she were really stranded on an island like where was she getting that super fancy product to maintain that elegant curl pattern. It's a supernatural. I like that kind of moisture in the air to help her curls away I was living that hair and also looks great to green. I agree agree luscious I would. I would love to make a way out of Hurley's hair as somebody who has good. Yeah I have good weight but yeah I trade. It certainly would not part down the middle and that unflattering way police but like getting little side part going back out a little dandruff definitely maybe even even get a cut. That isn't so obvious like in blunt like that like you gotta take some weight out of the Middle Anyway whatever so here's time setting it up a wine. One is like the feeling by watching bloodline. I WANNA be surprised. I want it to show me something that I didn't see coming and I was ahead of it the entire time and I didn't even feel interested in characters like let me learn more about the characters. I never felt like I was being moved anywhere. So that's a one and then a a ten or like a nine ten is going to be like the series finale of the wire where I felt really good and I felt like wow it was worth worth it following all these characters and getting here in the way that David Simon has sort of set this up as if like you know Baltimore continues beyond the story that I just saw. And there's there's so much more story to explore but this is the end of the show like that left me with a good satisfying feeling and then somewhere in the middle like a five is going to be like this frail. Yeah because I want people to know where I'm coming from this series finale of Sopranos which is hotly debated. I think that they could have done so much more with it. And and they decided to make this strange artsy choice which was really off genre for the rest of the show so this is where last falls in the sort of like three four range very much like Sasha if I had really been on board and watched all of the show. I think that the series finale would have landed a little bit better for me because this isn't about the show. This is about the now. I think it would have been a little a bit stronger but for what it was. It doesn't go past five because there's a lot of work that could have been done. That just wasn't done Stephen Fair Stephen You you you predicted maybe 'cause pessimist maybe because you realists but you saw the future you saw the reality you had a flash forward to our three and four or reaction. Yeah but this is not about us. This episode. This Christmas Eve episode is about you so give us a gift Tillis. Where does this topic the finale of their claimed one hour television drama Nama lost on? ABC Not on CBS. Where survivor cops from which you would think is the CBS people made read the Real Lake? You know narrative version of survivor. No it's not see survivor. Walked so lost could run. Yeah Yeah Yeah So yeah we're talking about this finale. Right for a lot of people was disappointing. You know not all of the not of the people who are disappointed by it are disappointed because they don't understand it right. There's plenty of people who have valid criticisms of the finale early. But for me it as a finale of one hundred twenty episodes of television it does what I needed to do. It concludes these stories. That concludes the themes of science versus faith. Good versus evil and it. He's crying. He's doing like a slow blink blink while like a fat tear rolls out of the crease in his eye as he looks up at a clearing in the trees an airplane and Alab cuts through the sky and slow mo running past him which I was thinking. I would kinda like if that was my last minute. Alive of and like a golden retriever. Yellow lab came and cozied up. Next me it'd be like thanks. I agree the dog was unless he's not in the church. I was surprised. The baby is but dog Vincent was a presence in the show from the very beginning. Probably Seventeen Vincent's we know. Oh Yeah I'm surprised it doesn't make it to the church but I like the science versus faith stuff another thing that I really like. About the way that this ends is aside from the literal embodiment of evil. No one is beyond redemption. Ben Linus is this this. He does those horrific things throughout the series but by the end of the show he is making efforts to redeem himself right and the idea is that one day he he will be able to move on from this purgatory place. The same way that the survivors of the plane crash are and I like that idea as well and and just in terms of a conclusion to a story that can never be fully concluded just just like life You know we will never be fully concluded. One day we will end and Hopefully fully our end the true Father Cohen. He's he has in the past. My my father described me as is the spiritual leader of our family I think adjust this is. This is the end that the show could have. It's the only ending that the show could half half and I love it for that. The acting is not great whatever. The production design is on a limited budget. It's a network worship all that stuff only seventeen million dollars for the pilot. I mean that's seventy million dollars. Yeah the barely had any money to spare the million nine dollars. I mean let's just all my God has its flaws that I can acknowledge while still loving can't and so if I were making a scale at ten I would put a show that ended that a similar ending. That people would probably if people take these two finale tandem. They've probably feel like they learn a lot about my taste. which would be the finale sense? Eight the Wachowski Netflix series. which was maligned by some? But I found it to be beautiful. I put lost right up there with this is not it absolutely expect nothing less. I think they're valid. There's valid flaws certainly Damon Lindelof in the other male. Writers of the show didn't didn't do a great job writing the female characters. That's a legitimate criticisms. But they're all hot so what does not matter they all get pregnant. They all kiss boys' tire s all their hair work with the humidity. What else is there? Are you gotta deal so yeah those are legitimate flaws and I acknowledge them but it doesn't affect the emotional no residence of it for me. I suppose and shouldn't Lorena. Is there anything that caught your attention over last week or since I saw you lost the April. Yeah that You'd like to share with Alderson. There's that most people don't know appreciate as I was doing my lost homework. I was like man. This is so weird. This is reminding me so much of the soap opera. Passions does anyone in here no passionate was on. NBC Sister Conan. I used to wash lesson. It's so good. It's so weird. It's so funny and I think that that's what I love so much about. Passions they're all these kooky characters. There's there's a weird there's which on the little witch. Anyway it's real crazy it's a bonkers soap operas called passions and as I was watching the loss finale really I was like the one thing getting me through this is reminding me of passions and that's getting a laugh out of me because it's just like smoke monster polar like what is he's going on. That's my thing that I love that. I don't care if other people don't love. I was going to bring up a show that ran inacio for one season for seven Evan episodes since we mentioned. Hbo John It's a comedy another another British comedy that I'm recommending but I am just such fan and I saw and also this is hilarious and I will upset that. He didn't go anywhere. And I don't think is going anywhere. But if you love comedy and if you love Women Watch it It's called Sally forever so it is. Julia Davis the British comedian. And it is her show about a woman who is in an unhappy relationship with a man Initi- Falls in love with this beautiful. pixie girls Just cheese usually a dave is dave is the I can't remember. I saw the pilot for this over the summertime. It is wild. I also recommend this is your super wild so anyway but the woman isn't unhappy in an unhappy relationship A straight relationship with the dude. WHO's kind of a loser? And then she meets this Girl who seems like this like just a punk girl who's a lot of fun and in the have this crazy romance and then she the original girl breaks up with her boyfriend and she starts dating this girl only to find out that this new woman in her life is fucking maniac like evil psychopath. And she's destroying her life. She went from not great relationship to I'm in the relationship with the psycho and I can't get rid of her and she's a stalker and she's probably GonNa kill me funny. I feel like the question in that the audience will have throughout is should she have left that first guy and like what one argument that could be made as maybe this. She's being terrorized terrorized by this new person but maybe it's more exciting and more fun to live in that terror than to be with that like boring milk. Toast like lots of great disagreeing. Great boy That's for you listeners. To find out. But it's also very funny and Sicko Funny Lorraine Is there anything you would like like to plug. I'm really enjoying how boring my personal life is at the moment but I will plug a couple of things checkout Maude night at. Uc be it's eight thirty PM on Wednesday nights. My team is the summer of an Wego up the first Wednesday every month. Also hot off the presses I'm newly the director of a Maude team called Hail. Mary and their shows are the second Wednesday of every month. So check them out. They're really great and also so I think that people should Google Brian Eno windows ninety five startup sound. It's really good so just this. Check it out. Just leave it at that. Even plug as listeners may Sasha and I host a twice monthly Improv show at the moving arts on period avenue in Los Angeles nine. PM on the second for Thursday the direct to video awards. Please listen to this podcast. Please please tell Ya Friends of audit and please please rate us on. I tunes even just one click our homeless with something. Thank you salute for artwork. Thank you Andrew Hayworth for our theme music thank you calling less fee for amazing videos. Thank you Jay. Hildreth for production support and Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas

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