Dose of Ether #27 - Sardex - Giuseppe Littera
Well entering guy podcast network. Either is the perfect drug for las vegas in this talia. Leventhal fresh meat come up so they put us through. The turnstiles turned us loose inside <music>. Welcome and thank you for joining joining me on another episode of dose of ether. This is your host lucian and this week joining me is just cepa lita data from sar dex hydro cepa loosen. Thanks for having me. It's great having you on <hes>. This is a real special treat for me. I know what starbucks has been doing. I've followed your work for about five years <hes> but i bet this is a complete completely. New <hes> aspect that most people in the crypto currencies space haven't haven't really been exposed to so. I'm really excited to talking with you about your experience. So do you wanna give us a brief overview about what's <unk> is doing and then will come back and we'll talk about how you got into space and how you've developed because i'm super excited about the concept of what you're doing and my listeners are sure to hear why our okay so <hes> little intro <hes> sorry dex <hes> as a local complementary currency <hes> which <hes> we've been operating now <hes> since ten years and we are based in <hes> sarah sardinia <hes> which is an island <hes> in the middle of the mediterranean sea <hes> belongs to easily and we don't see you rope and yeah so basically <hes> what are the <hes> does <hes> is that <hes> eat provides <hes> s._m._e.'s ah first and foremost local s._m._e.'s and sole-traders either <hes> retailers <hes> with a <hes> digi talk complementary currency account so <hes> through these account owned companies get to buy and sell goods and services without the use of euros <hes> and <music> <hes> the striking aspect is that <hes> these currency <hes> our if we want to be <hes> more precise <hes> this form form of credit is <hes> generate is backed first by the productive capacity of local businesses so the key criteria we <hes> and the key question we ask <hes> perspective. <hes> members of the network is if all of their production capacity is being currently absorbed by the euro market by the normal economy <hes> <hes> if it is not which is most likely the case <hes> then <hes> there's an opportunity for them to join the network twerk and trade they <hes> they productive capacity. We've <hes> right now. It's <hes> four thousand <hes> other <hes> <hes> <hes> estimates on the island and <hes> basically <hes> if you if you want a concrete example <hes> <hes> any then these as has an appointment book if <hes> appointments are not booked <hes> the dentist is basically paying for all of its cost aust- <hes> the electricity et cetera et cetera but he's basically losing money now these these where are combing the dentist by joining the network that pork commits a <hes> amount expressed in in in starbucks and by the way started does not fluctuate it. It is one to one with the euro <hes> so the dentist might say in the next twelve months. I'm happy to commit a hundred until ten thousand euro words of my productive capacity. Basically is our hair time to the network so at that point <hes> <hes> after we <hes> signed them up <hes> and they pay their fees because these is not a <hes>. It's a free service. <hes> we do charge a subscription fees <hes> to keep the network up and running and <hes> once and <hes> the dentist has joined network. <hes> eat can basically choose to do two things one is to sell if he sells on the network <hes> by providing dental services to any other participant <hes> he gets treaded. Let's say four hundred subjects so after that it can spend the third day in whatever you can find feet <hes> <hes> n._c._a._a. Viewers ending what <hes> or <hes> echoed <hes> based on the commitment i mentioned earlier. <hes> us is credit line and these were things really really gets interesting. Because the moment the then feast please <hes> buys. Let's say goes grocery shopping and spend fifty bucks is account goes from zero to negative negative. It goes to minus fifty. The grocer account goes plus fifty at that very moment the dentist as being creating tarred next credit and the moment e goes from minus fifty be back to zero or over zero is basically repaying is that to the community not a single member but the whole community so it's basically a currency. It does not a true interest. There is no interest in the system at all <hes> it functions mostly as a means of exchange <hes> it. It's very not common kalman that is used as star value also because sard next are not meant to be converted back and forth into do you rose started next are meant to be created and destroyed through trade among s._m._e.'s among small companies or or even medium companies and for the purpose of keeping the local economy alive <hes> the only objective ear is two key to to keep trading among <hes> <hes> companies that are in proximity <hes> even <hes> <hes> when <hes> the official <hes> economy traditional economy <hes> where all these companies also operate <hes> <hes> gets into trouble nice so a good way l. u. <hes> to american listeners would it be accurate to to say that it's a local currency of sort. Yes yeah i would say so <hes> our local mutual credit system if we want to be very very precise who is the principal. Your is mutual credit. Okay all community credit yorker and a local currency is is <hes> the sex unit of account <hes> transferable from one member to another oh yes oh yes i mean the <hes> the members can credit and debit each other as as as a normal <hes> normal transactions they just use our own up as opposed to <hes> whatever the visa network or <hes> a bank payment and often <hes> we also have companies who use and do <hes> blended payments as we call them <hes> so <hes> where <hes> <hes> you know part of the <hes> invoice is settled in you rose through normal channels and another part these settled inside the through <hes> the up are the the web up yep <hes> so <hes> when you say hey that is valued at one euro and it's stable <hes> how is there any kind of mechanism that guarantees the the stability <hes> or is it simply the fact that members in the union <hes> accept it like a dollar so therefore it's exchange it's exchanges value is essentially a dollar what keeps it from shading or depreciating relative <hes> <hes> yeah the teen year is is that <hes> since there is no convertibility so <hes> there is no secondary market. There is no price discovery in classical trip. If the currency <hes> juggle right <hes> air <hes> saturday is to the euro <hes> <hes> unit of account by <hes> by the members <hes> because for <hes> simplicity reasons mostly <hes> because they don't need to think even bother about both <hes> hoping that <hes> the balance the today we will not be worth a will be worth more tomorrow <hes> in in in in terms of stability <hes>. I mean i could talk hours. There's about the euro and it's people's and then these problems but as being a fairly stable <hes> so far fairly stable currency princi- and so it's it's purely voluntary and and <hes> it's purely <hes> <hes> an agreement <hes> to treat units <hes> as such because there is no <hes> <hes> deposits in a bank. Thank all or collateral <hes> in terms of i don't know <hes> whatever acids it's a convention invention yeah and it's also easier yep and it's also because the people who offer services in return for starbucks artifacts for example <hes> are themselves pricing the services the same in euros and sardonic as well so the way that the currency he is minted to use cryptocurrency parlance yeah similar to <hes> someone essentially providing these goods or services <hes> but it you simply change how the payment is settled instead if you offer payments for goods and services in exchange for sarawak's artifacts instead of euro you keep the prices the same <hes> so it's correct it's simply a unit of account that creates a feedback back loop within the local community so cora four before we start exp- talking more about the economics of this because i find it really fascinating <hes> let's <hes> let's talk a bit about you and walk you into <hes> into this and how'd you get involved experimenting experimenting with <hes> economics <hes> the that's a great question <hes> well initially was just this child's as i am <hes> i i studied languages modern languages <hes> and in england and germany germany <hes> i was very lucky to have these opportunity while also was working there <hes> and <hes> in two thousand seeks <hes> we the friend in leads <hes> <hes> stumbled upon a deal <hes> um on on i think it was a video that was before the youtube acquisition <hes> called the money masters and the money must have a <hes> quite quite strong harsh somehow i would say even conspiratorial <hes> type of documentary on the history of money now <hes> that got me and bureau. That's the name of my then flatmate automate. Who's now a co founder in our ex. <hes> got me very very deep into a robbie paul that <hes> most so people who and <hes> awhile also familiar with with with keep the currencies tend to fall into or actually i mean i started digging through the of money <hes> these three of credit history of trust basically <hes> and easter your view woman's woman's because i then discovered that there is a very intimate relation between writing memory and money <hes> <hes> that for the goes as far as like five thousand years back <hes> the first sees in iraq <hes> like if it's the clay tablets those guys invented where basically the first version <hes> of of money and writing in <hes> at the same time <hes> and <hes> in in these like jordan need to the history of of these arrangements and agreements and <hes> and i kind of got into <hes> the beat where <hes> i try hey to find a positive examples <hes> outside of the <hes> orthodoxy we are or let's say does stop start to score economics <hes> in particular in the in particular neoliberal economics. That's well we we have <hes> many people call it also the washington consensus <hes> and the war created after bretton woods and after a nixon draw <hes> the party with gold and dollars became <hes> pure fiat currency for instance and and <hes> from five thousand years ago to today <hes> i believe and i and i found many examples <hes> some very small awesome bigger of communities who in order to survive sometimes even thrive came up with the regional solutions <hes> to <hes> the problems are financed <hes> and <hes> and basically by i studying all of these <hes> basically three so from two thousand and six two thousand nine <hes> at one point after ah after the lemon <hes> collapse <hes> we felt the urge to do something <hes> to to help uh small and medium companies <hes> that where <hes> we we knew and he then happens <hes> <hes> that they were <hes> going to be affected by very strong credit crunch i would even call it credit rationing or freddie freddie repression <hes> that that came <hes> once the european interbank market froze after lebron <hes> <hes> <hes> failed like the ripple was <hes> that <hes> six thousand kilometres are maybe four thousand kilometers from new we are <hes> you add companies being denied working happy not even like investment copies of working though for reason that they they weren't <hes> even like responsible for <hes> because of solvency issues of the banks <hes> so <hes> coming back to what what all of these elements so <hes> the emergency situation of of of the great financial crisis <hes> sparked the the wheel are let's say the the madness <hes> <hes> trying to build a web web based inter will say internet enabled because without internet you would not have our <hes>. Did you tell uh economic space and economic. Ah olympic credit <hes> network <hes> that has no paper knows that that leaves on on a on a server <hes> to alleviate or meaty gate the problem that small businesses where going to face and that's what we we did so we started the company in two thousand nine and <hes> we just <hes> start to work <hes> um and we started with a very very ugly platform and that we <hes> gradually evolved and that's let's see the volving and <hes> and i am definitely very very interested in many <hes> <hes> distribute these he's ledger uh projects and technology and and possibilities and i'm looking into them for the future of of what is been doing because <hes> i believe it could add <hes> some more <hes> adopt ability eighty <hes> and might also remove some of the structural problems that <hes> complementary currencies <hes> <hes> that were built before <hes> two thousand nine. That's our k. is in two thousand nine <hes> faith because you know it's not <hes> <hes> super easy to to to keep <hes> thousands of companies working together or even not <hes> sometimes not fight deal <hes> in in small market like so denia generate trust in the meanwhile <hes>. I hope to to have given anything clear. Just this dig deeper. Yes it's <hes> it's very clear and it's also refreshing <hes> working in the crypto currency space hearing about a company that first of all <hes> they you've built a big community a you have <hes> if i remember correctly four thousand companies in your <hes> in your network was <hes> and we also <hes> let me have a little bit more because we also following the request and then the needs of those <hes> companies. We also included <hes> workers. There's ars around <hes> two thousand five hundred employees. I am one of them. <hes> receive <hes> benefits. It's are sometimes part of their salary in inside the ex <hes> and <hes> recently we've also opened up to consumers <hes> <hes> and the consumer <hes> way of of using decks is quite <hes> interesting <hes> because <hes> basically consumers get rewards <hes> are actually the proper terms they assad x. award <hes> when when they spend their cash at a local <hes> participants businesses so if you are consumer and you get <hes> onboard did that's easier pick as picking up a car with a q._r. Code <hes> you <hes> basically <hes> get <hes> <hes> between <hes> three to sometimes <hes> even ten percent and at like super promo <hes> offerings even twenty percents of what you pay for goods and services in in cash at the shop and you get ah a <hes> a award in credits then then you can spend as where in the network <hes> either andrew percenting credits or sometimes blended though that's the whole thing and there's there's <hes> around fifteen thousand humor's now doc <hes> that are taking part to these pilots. It's still a pilot <hes> so yeah. I think fifteen thousand thousand people participating in pilot is massive in terms of the number of people using a payment system <hes> for the crypto currency space this that's really exciting and it's much better deal than let's say a credit card using a credit card that gives you some kind of cashback that are like yeah exactly then i might say something on the cache friendliness that i think is i mean this is that'd be g so <hes> unique digital means of exchange. If you wanted for for a community that show that chooses to use it. It's all voluntary. I mean they. They even pay to participate because you know we. We can't run these for free. We haven't done any. I feel we we have invest doors and and we're trying to to to grow these into a sustainable business. <hes> we've a social impact but coming back to the <hes> gosh friendliness is that <hes> merchants who <hes> who choose to award consumers without discredit can can do so regardless if the payment is a <hes> via credit card which is not that comedy so denia <hes> probably probably i would say <hes> for smaller amount <hes> probably sixty if not seventy percent cash and maybe thirty percents <hes> <hes> credit cards the general like marquette <hes> <hes> in in payments here <hes> and the cool thing. Is i mean we we've. We believe i mean i mean. Maybe let me speak personally. I believe that <hes> i'm not a like did you though fanatic or <hes> and i do believe that cash as a piece of paper <hes> fall for a number of reason <hes> as some interesting properties that no digital <hes> instrument has <hes> is is really works off line. We can say that it. It's really hard to track and we can say that and in that sense we we <hes> we are happy like to to be <hes> somehow facilitating the the continue us <hes> also like notes <hes> which are <hes> also the most used <hes> payment <hes> means of common people <hes> here and any most of the work that i would say but anyway a ju just a little team because you know there's <hes> there's a lot of like these cashless cashless gus less <hes> <hes> <hes> i dunno propoganda would say are like a push from above but <hes> i don't know if you know brad scott <hes> was was was a very very bright personally is is he puts it in this term. A cashless society is about payments society so let's call it for what it is now and i really like this. Take on this but apart from the as yet you're you're. I'm talking too much. I have who agree with you there. Because <hes> the technology for privacy isn't there yet so i think crypto currencies <hes> <hes> are currently overused for how little privacy they offer and the privacy enabling crypto currencies aren't used used nearly enough for actual payment systems. It's been <hes> in overlooked under invested domain and i agree. I actually do support the use of cash when it's when it's beneficial and yet it is kind of ironic hosting a crypto currency show and still being very much in favour cash but let's be honest being pragmatic. I would say say yes. Yes it. It's also because we currently live in surveillance capitalism and <hes> very often people use <hes> store discount cards or <hes> benefits programs as a way to improve the targeted advertisement has been that they send to you so in exchange for your privacy. They're willing to give you some kind of discount and <hes> essentially using a credit credit. Card is a way to essentially guarantee that you could never escape that system since credit card companies <hes> so all of your information chan very weakly anonymous is might i add <hes> it's very easy to d- anonymous credit card information and i'm sure ad tech companies denise do it all the time <hes> so yes. I agree on that crazy tradeoff yeah yeah. I'm kind of curious do you. <hes> do you currently do anything to <hes> protect the anonymity of users. I don't think you have <hes> an advertisement model. It also to say and i don't know if you sell your users data. No yeah the only the only only only only <hes> use who's that we make of data is to improve the product we don't sell are not in the business of sending data <hes> <hes> and the other us that <hes> that we make of data <hes> is for research <hes> we've published a study with yale dale and ahrvard was published in nature <hes> nasty or a theme yes and <hes> and for that we shared they thought that was him is <hes> but he was for really visas barbados's because we we were trying to figure out and i think we we did the work needs to be turned into called still <hes> we kind of figured out a way to <hes> <hes> implemented a rating come i would say <hes> rating things that <hes> reputation <hes> system <hes> based on transactions that held that we'll hopefully alpacas ars and the participant <hes> one <hes> reviews <hes> risk over time <hes> and to <hes> <hes> identify <hes> strengths and weaknesses both as node in the network like me as a company <hes> where am i weak or what am i strong <hes> as well as always might trading network <hes> is it strong wrong or easy week and also the overall local network can be there for ranked because you you can once you once you can rank the individual <hes> participant through is activity <hes> then you can basically enable measurement of the friend and efficacy of a mutual credit of these sorts of systems <hes> and then you can compare them and and that is important because <hes> we also provide from the platform for eleven other networks in an easterly like that that are like would say <hes> modeled although after us and and what's really really hard is when you've got closed economic systems <hes> and you one them to inter operate while respecting the principle of keeping local what that makes sense to be kept local ninety ninety percent of trade i would say or maybe eighty <hes> and then you've got these twenty percent of interdependency that that that we we all have because supply chains are cross-national cross-border <hes> then you need the way to compare <hes> systems that that i'm older like saturday and that's the work we did with with with <hes> harvard yale safety college published in nature is called cyclic motive in the next monetary system. I think and actually will be interested. I'm personally personally interested so i'm going to put a link with that study in the show notes <hes> and i'm going to read it after this call <hes> so does the the <hes> the rating system is a more complicated version of a reputation system correct yeah yeah i mean it it. It's really measurement tool because <hes> if we if we if i go back a little on the technology and then the faculties i mean i'm not a tech <hes> tech expert. I became one. I mean not by three. They became one by necessity. <hes> i read knock a motos bakary in two thousand nine <hes> because it was posted on peer to peer foundation which is the decide that was i would say the place to be for non cryptographer. 's where interested in alternative monetary systems he's back then and he's not caged as knock him off posted there <hes> so i when i read that i was shocked and i really really liked it but my problems with we d- <hes> original implementation of bitcoin was that it was mentioned end as a very very inelastic system in and what my understanding gene of of the working of of an economy is that <hes> it's good to have hard money sound money <hes> and in that sense may be <hes> something like bitcoin does have <hes> a place and we'll stand the test of time. Maybe <hes> don't wanna make any prediction here <hes> but <hes> what you need when you're <hes> dealing with with with trade then we'd production it's something elastic and elastic elastic as as a membrane that can expand and contract and <hes> so i really liked the idea of <hes> <hes> of the timing chain as he called it initially are which i think is better than blockchain <hes> as a share the record. That's shared form of memory. That's brilliant absolutely brilliant. <hes> idea <hes> in these very very good implementation yet act in terms of monetary policy. You have one folly see for the whole system and competition among minors to produce whatever avert the block reward gets you right inside decks. You have businesses ou our hard them selves eighteen treaded and destroying credit so you don't have a logical org <unk> like schedule that schedule is don because of trade because the dentist needs to do grocery shopping shopping and maybe in that very moment he's short of euros so he then issues are are <hes> e- get credit extended to him by the good offer because they shared a network and they share the vision and by sharing that by trusting each other in this case subjects is very much trustful as as opposed to trust less <hes> by sharing the vision they can actually be come the creators of the means of exchange that they're going to use for the purpose of exchanging v._m. Goods and services it's not just to become richer if i may or to whatever and the the whatever financial work don't seem very concrete production or consumption of goods and services regardless of what apple and the market in the big markets in the far away remark yeah. Italy is a really interesting example. I don't want to dive too much into <hes> macro economics but italy's a very very good example of <hes> an economy that basically got directly impacted by the <hes> <hes> larger macroeconomic financial <hes> powerhouse of the euro and during the financial crisis the euro zero very much acted like a straight jacket around italy and it basically prevented its growth at a rate that it normally would have have had it actually been able to <hes> devalue its currency relative to others but instead because of the way the european central bank quiz setup italy ended up kind of importing the inflation of germany and everyone's national currency stayed the same <hes> in the form of a euro and start ex kind of icy starbucks says <hes> out a way to create some flexibility within in this monetary policy straightjacket in which the needs of the local community can expand credit based on <hes> actual business relationships amongst their immediate local community <hes> built upon a network of <hes> local <hes> producers and consumers in a system that people already have more implicit trust than for example sample with someone from brussels and it's interesting how you essentially compare the inflexibility of bitcoins bitcoins macro monetary policy <hes> when it seems like italy and sardinia itself kind of experienced the negative effects of an overly strict financial straitjacket during the financial crisis <hes> is this kind of like a good way to put it yeah yeah yeah yeah i i would say one more be. I mean <hes> i wasn't in <hes> even thinking about the european <hes> <hes> <hes> landscape so to speak so i was just focusing on on on the difference between the monetary model of of of bitcoin for instance instance and and saw <hes> but <hes> coming to your point i would say that i mean bitcoin as that policy in cold and and there are debates on how to change the call and war of war on twitter on on any any like pool request on the bitcoin right <hes> and that's good that that's a b- bait and that should it gone. I think it's positive i think that there is discussion. <hes> in the euro-zone you had lots of of discussions but again a very very strict straight jacket yet that's that's wrong and we add and <hes> try to carve out some space <hes> also for personal reasons because i mean we want to stay stains or dina work here and contribute to this place i had the luck of studying abroad and i wanted to bring back with a learned and and and and and how and and right now we are i mean we're a big team of people can have a decent work <hes> <hes> and that most likely would have emigrated <hes> if if we didn't actually do what was done <hes> coming back to the situation enough of italy <hes> yeah. I think it's it's it's a fifty fifty. <hes> blame game here <hes> between the brussel <hes> <hes> framework are consensus and also <hes>. There's a huge responsibility on <hes> on the people full of easily for every in a great deal of tala writings <hes> too crazy economic policy <hes> that ah the government <hes> elected by them <hes> or or sometimes <hes> technocratic governments in case there are not chosen by the people you know so it's <hes> there are structural issues here that i've been neglected. That's what i'm trying to say and those are also drug and on the economic recovery and development <hes> and definitely don't the the the european <hes> strict <hes> adherence appearance to the commas <hes> we doubt looking at the long-term effect of such ah ho ho taxi <hes> i mean it's been very damaging. I would say so yeah women. We have to deal with it. It comes as an answer to these as the bottom up <hes> bottom up concrete example aww <hes> non-state voluntary <hes> community effort <hes> proving that <hes> if well-managed and i'm telling you managing hardback sees a hell of a job not easy. There's no algorithms. There's no oh my g. There's a lot of people <hes> working also with other people. There's a lot of human to human interaction <hes> and i think that's an element that we'd like to keep in in the future and i am interested in lots of ood distributed ledger technologies in particularly i do like eat there <hes> and and tedium as as as <hes> <hes> more <hes> <hes> invention or let's say creation friendly <hes> platform <hes> but there's a bunch of of platforms that i'm looking at <hes> because we believe that the next evolution evolution of of what we're doing is trying to make it easier for communities like ours to be joining a wider network. That's based on the principle that we demonstrate t._v. Are and and the next step is like i feel like we've been ten years in back uh-huh and but we didn't have the tech and we don't have the know-how and generally we're very humbled people in virginia and the opposite of cowboy i would say or the opposite belva californian silicon valley <hes> i dunno boosting seeing you know fake it till you make now we we are like do with them. Talk about it. <hes> that's undo it. Well yeah yeah and you've definitely already done it and you have <hes> a big community of active users and the fact that now you are. You're <hes> starting to see that ten years. After bitcoin <hes> only now is the technology <hes> approaching level of maturity a charity in which it's actually feasible to <hes> build your existing system built with a client server architecture sure in a more distributed open permission less way and i find it really interesting that who like sardinia's a great place to incubate debate this like i love sardinia it's <hes> my probably my favorite place to have visited and traveled <hes> and it is i described it <hes> basically as like italian lifestyle with <hes> caribbean weather <hes> during the summer fall at least <hes> and i absolutely loved it. It's it's such a a small but very tightly knit community with a ton of history <hes> and they have their own native palm tree which is tiny and i think it's the only european <hes> <hes> island blend to have its own native palm tree but tell us a little bit about sardinia and i manure being very very kind as i think my my fellows thirteen years will be very very happy <hes> for these like free commerce <laughter> <laughter> no <hes> servini as being <hes>. A subpoena has a rich history. I mean sardinia was on the map up before the alps emerge <hes> the d._n._a. of people if you look at any study is unique <hes> <hes> we've. We've <hes> have the most <hes> <hes> unveiled years. Old people are in the world apart from japan so i don't know if it's some magic that islands i've probably and also in terms of history like <hes> we we've. We're part of italy now. We were part of spain before at one point. We were independent like we've been part of byzantium. We've been part have to rome like it's a very in in these times americans have a hard time relating because the u._s. is such a young <hes> young nation and <hes> young country or young federation. I would say <hes> yeah and <hes> i i would <hes> only suggest <hes> recommend dini for for only for for leaving like like to also to set up op shop <hes>. There's there's a good i._t. Seen for instance in calgary <hes> eh in terms of nature is is it's beautiful. I can't <hes> i mean i'm biased <hes> but i wouldn't spend <hes> much time <hes> outside. I've i've i've been to some places but when i come back <hes> movies in love with the place but it's also as beautiful as it looks <hes> it eight eight quite harsh <hes> i mean we still have a huge unemployment rate. <hes> comparing to its potential. I i think the island is going like at <hes> twenty percent <hes> its potential. I mean there's lots of structural problems problems like we pay like think about the electricity thing and then i'll stop <laughter> but i mean we expect an activity. 'cause we produce more than we consume. <hes> then it goes <hes> tweet comes back cost thirty percent mark. Let me stay. I'll can you compete in a market where where your energy prices are thirty percent higher. There's i mean there's a dockside <hes> but i'm talking more as a as as a part of the economy but as a person i love it and and really some of the awards yeah it's <hes> it's one of my <hes> favorite places to travel <hes> every european country and city. They have a lot of pride in their heritage edge. <hes> and sir genius no exception <hes> the food culture there is very unique to and there are things that you will find there that you will not find anywhere else. <hes> some of those things are illegal like certain types of cheeses are actually illegal taught. I know it's famous but <hes> people essentially would they'll find it if they look it up but <hes> not to go into that per se <hes> i think another aspect about sardinia is the fact that the longest you can drive in a straight line is about two and a half hours right so you can almost do a full loop of the island in about four hours and this permits commits you to essentially have a closer knit group <hes> and it almost helps kind of create a a community currency because you are fairly remote and isolated <hes> from the rest of the european community by physical cicle borders and boundaries and <hes>. It's a really good place to have started an experimented with the local community currency conc- because there's <hes> your it's a very friendly type of <hes> collaboration amongst <hes> neighbors and friends wins and the type of time and care that sardinians have put into maintaining and preserving their traditions in their way of life in addition to their recipes zippy's there <hes> food specialties all of these things made for like a perfect environment for you to have started a local community currency and then you combine the necessity of it <hes> from a larger macro economic <hes> needs from either other how italy is run on a national level or how european monetary policy made it really inflexible to <hes> to kind of do your own thing locally it <hes> it was a really interesting in nice microcosm for you to have started but it seems like now you are exporting putting the model for the rest of italy. Oh yeah i mean we started. <hes> are ready probably five years ago. <hes> i mean you don't set up like a or help. People partners sometimes set up similar divorce <hes> in a day day. It's a it's a quite the process <hes> so <hes> yes we. I mean we've i would say i would still say it's a bad i mean <hes> we are still <hes> improving there still <hes> things that <hes> are <hes> <hes> we're working on <hes> to make the process of creating such networks <hes> easier because this is is not easy and <hes> is not that sir denia people do love each other that much i mean there's also a dark side to that. I mean we're are we are one point five million in three hundred seventy seven cities and towns some of them have two hundred inhabitants beaten and and just one is over two hundred fifty thousand that's calgary <hes> but in the middle like there's was <hes> <hes> there's <hes> a sense of community yes but no i don't know so then also known for like backstabbing each other i mean we are definitely through the backstop being threatened <hes> but that's the problem <hes> to give you an idea when we we started and there were three members so <hes> people relax cat but <hes> i mean we've seen the network right and we i didn't want to tell them not that there were three and then the guy was the number four what we didn't want to risk risk was telling them who was inside because <hes> we feared that you know far maybe some crazy reason these two guys ed the deal gone sour ten years before offer like you know under with the euro worth of whatever and we didn't want that to be a stop <hes> from there joining so we told them <hes> what was available in terms of goods and services but not only would provide a was up until they joined it was a bit tricky bit cheeky but but that was motivated by the hatred that sometimes you have among local local businessmen so they know each other. Yes do eighth each other. That's so funny actually because just because you're from a small town doesn't mean you're not from a small town in everyone hates each. It's like you're. You're more likely to know each other on a personal level so <hes> eventually eventually you're going to run into people that are going to butt heads <hes> i necessarily like say that it was easier in sardinia denia per se <hes> it was <hes> that the strength of the <hes> identity of the people of sardinia <hes> we ain't it a good release to essentially say like when you ask someone from sardinia. I think that they will sooner tell you that they are sardinian opinion than that. They are european or italian. That's from my personal opinion and the people i know i'd be the third you would agree. Yes and identity helps anything more. Yes it helps a._t. Out yeah and it also helps in the sense that you are creating <hes> credit out of trust and those things they are <hes> <hes> they are very deeply join together and <hes> you you found a way to now <hes> help local small businesses which by the way if you ever go to sardinia and you go to like local food stands or or <hes> basically partake in any of the local delicacies. It's like you won't want anything else. Sounds like you wouldn't want necessarily have imported food and there is this <hes> kind of nationalistic pride <hes> for example like if you're from the united states. It's kind of hard to picture you're like why would i want apples for maryland like sure if they're out of farmers market but when you're at sardinia you definitely want like sardinian per shudo even more so than from other regions of italy so i'm curious on how you extend this kind of <hes> local identity and you create a federated network because now you're working with other regions of italy as well and they have their own local currency but now you're. You're setting up a system in which you're connecting them. So how does that yeah. I mean that's that's that that's a hell of a job and that's ongoing. I mean i i'm probably i think this process will be <hes> would be taking us at least the next two to three years. If we <hes> continue to exist into three years <hes> optimistic i believe it will be a convergence of <hes> awesome. <hes> of processes enabled by distributed ledgers. We definitely need need some more <hes> <hes> <hes> interoperability the d._o._t. Allows and and business and well as <hes> <hes> the what it's about having partners i mean the mother that i'm thinking about but again i i'm sharing my <hes> confusion infusion in my head and and i'm talking to various teams in in <hes> tedium space of talk with some guys from <hes> maker dow how and trust lines and <hes> and fuse <hes> those are those i remember now <hes> <hes> because the it's some sort of <hes> a replication or actually an extension of a network while balancing the difficult part there is balancing <hes> the division of labor neighbor between technology right that then that these probably the core of what we could offer technology and expertise. He's no how as were and the other side is the offline activity that is what what we <hes> <hes> <hes>. We can't really do outside of the island. I mean that that that's the partners job and we've we've experienced in and we you're testing various models on on how to do these. The most effectively i don't have a <hes> catchall answer to share but <hes> it's about fair location of work and resources revenue sharing and and <hes> yeh yeah division of labor because there's no real need that every local community as an i._t. Team it makes no sense right <hes> it and what he does do make sense is that every local community on board this users as you kate's is users <hes> <hes> keeps relationship trust we trust and and and work and believe ring value you because that's what really matters i mean we've we've existed ten years <hes> <hes> because ultimately <hes> companies have believed leave them in in in house and in turn they believe in themselves more and yeah <hes> in the future future. I i really like the the possibility offered by <hes> by the for instance. I really really like looking into that <hes> <hes> d._a. All than any and an agent like <hes> the fetch <hes> thing as agents agents that can be like human <hes> are <hes> like agents acting beyond view months are active on beyond house south of other cold or or machines <hes> so i am familiar with the dow's <hes> decentralized autonomous organizations nations but what are agents more specifically ooh. Oh agents what i mean. He's really <hes> <hes> <hes> software that <hes> i i if i can give you an example. I imagine a future version. One of of what we we we could do as a voice interface where i am. I mean my shop up and i'm basically <hes> interacting with the network of probably let's say four thousand companies close to me and <hes> i'm getting an extra sort of saves person or purchased chasma purchasing manager in the form of these agents like the dentist same to the agent <hes> i really we love to have to spend my newly earned saadat in <hes> say <hes> holidays holy days <hes> on the cost and they're the agent <hes> help you out and maybe books for you <hes> the hotel and pays inside. That's an idea of an agent and other agents would be <hes> say you have. I'm going insight fight now. That's funny but say there's these tiny little cube that you throw in the air and it turns into a drawn and a little mini drums that digitalize and turn into asset stockins say <hes> all your inventory tori without you in putting the barco the in the database the little cube does that for you now at that point <hes> for system like ours we would have pretty shore <hes> <hes> we we would it'd be a much in the risk and opportunity for each of the nodes ena very very nice way and actually actually if you put it into the extreme and meeks the drawn <hes> flying thing that talking is your inventory or whatever <hes> and the agent <hes> and the two together basically you could have an economy where were traded trading happens between these agents and <hes> we don't even the use of a monetary unit uh-huh because we efficient allocation of resources based on having like all of the relevant information so like the agent is like a recommendation engine and the the mini drones that help you take inventory is a a better way to coordinate <hes> assets and if you could match and if you could match the two you could essentially create a more efficient asian market reaching a better utility point in which all of the resources that are available get put to use <hes> within this closed system in which everyone who has will need gets it served <hes> locally through excess capacity yeah no i. I've definitely that seifi version of it but yeah yeah yeah. I mean i think it's i think it's <hes> actually not that seifi. I think it's actually more realistic because this is just essentially looking at all of the trends that have been happening right. Let's say the <hes> rental property market the the inventory of it has <unk> slowly been moving towards airbnb right for who and why can't there be a crypto based <hes> cooperative owned and managed managed version of airbnb on crypto if <hes> if then the name of the <hes> peer to peer website that you've mentioned before happen to be calling for like a open source cryptovest airbnb as well but for many years now like for for five years yeah and i think like the big challenge there and that's also applies to as <hes> is really that <hes> like technology and the possibility and human creativity ingenuity is way way faster than any lawmaker that and <hes> it's funny like i can tell you this view on x. like like these guys in italy at the university they came up with <hes> a very clever system a <hes> basically a voucher system them like <hes> for restaurants like <hes> restaurants and companies <hes> for your lunch out. It's like the peak for lunch does that's. That's like the name of the thing and i'm basically they look at the market you'd market <hes> they look at the fees and all the problems beats market as and it's actually a very very destructive market and it's concentrated into a couple of monopolies police so these guys running the voucher company <hes> make fifteen ten to fifteen percent of the money that that <hes> the restaurants should get basically and <hes> so they came up with a very simple mark contract to basically do the voucher thing with the restaurants and the and the voucher by year without the middlemen right yeah so the the cost went. I'm from. I don't know ten percent to one and that was like they could push down below that now everything was perfect then they realize that in italy if you want to issue vouchers you gotta beat a you've gotta have an issoire swear that is a company that needs to be in a registry and in order to be in that registry. You need to have almost a million one dollars in a stock <hes> capital and basically like perfect product perfectly disrupted. The only only problem is the law wanted the issuer. I mean that is something that we've come more and more and more and then it comes in all sorts of like the law side of of the war is is getting obsolete and then the lawyers and the accountants as well fear <hes> new stuff and when they fear it in progress get slow and i think we are in that sort of moment like 'cause 'cause. I don't know i don't want a sound these these respectful to the accounting profession and the legal profession but <hes> at least for my experience <hes> <hes> not during definitely three more onto the compliant side of things than on the <hes> problem solving all right well. I'm glad you're out there. You're building first asking questions later and it makes sense suv. You've built a community built users now. <hes> in something that i think is <hes> an obvious match for the crypto currencies but at the same time you've been doing it for longer than crypto currencies have been around. I think <hes> the fact that the legal profession in the accounting earning profession haven't caught up to where you are is <hes>. It's a problem that here in the united states we are having as well with crypto currencies frenzies because we have a lot of entrepreneurs that went ahead and did something and now they have to report it or pay some kind of <hes> fine to a government agency for not being in compliance but yeah i'm more <hes> i'm i always always think that even if the accountants and the lawyers don't like it the <hes> the progress of technology is irreversible reversible once it started right so once i once the ticket voucher system <hes> ken be disintermediated the way you set it as long as the right people are in place to put it in practice then eventually it will happen <hes>. That's overly optimistic especially because i i bet in italy the reason that you need to have a million dollars in equity is so that if you execute some kind examined using the voucher system then the government guys the money to to reprimand the proof of fake yes <hes> state slash. They call it exactly they have to. They have to have some kind of equity to take from you if you if you commit fraud but that doesn't mean that the existing voucher companies aren't committing fraud it just means that they're wealthy and well-connected while if we build systems that are fundamentally really safer and more competitive <hes> and we experiment them and we put them into practice in the private sector then eventually <hes> governments will have to adopt to the way businesses current. I bet on i think so too i mean really the genie is out of the bottle and and you can bring it back you know and i really do think that in some terms <hes> evan these these time changed the in the sky shirt is a very powerful new form of memory and collective memory and it needs to be reckoned with for what it adi's and yeah and then i'm pretty sorry about the state of the debate in general but i do know that <hes> younger people <hes> we'll be probably more open <hes> than the older generations <hes> also because the older generation has seen the benefits <hes> seem expansionary phase <hes> of what i would call all late capitalism <hes> and we don't we are not seeing much good ahead and and we i don't think we'd ever enjoy <hes> or prospects that our parents had <hes> and so i think more more questions will be asked than and i don't know i mean it's like writing. It's a new new form of coordination <hes> <hes> in that sense <hes> it's a breakthrough i still believe it is <hes> and we're just i think collectively <hes> <hes> still at baby baby steps really <hes> there's much to discovers deal i think and and then to adopt if we don't want to just speak to yeah surveillance capitalism and don't let me get on politics because laugh i mean the situation is really getting out of control as we wear <hes> in terms of really nonsense <hes> dominating every debate i see very very very little almost that given the situation we're in as specie and and i might dimensional question whether the interests are appropriately aligned to address and fix the problems the real problems <hes> iraq iraq and it is both probably shared goal of <hes> crypto currencies and your work at sar- sar- tax rex that experimentation with sustainable <hes> economic models <hes> to create real alternatives that affect people on a daily basis is the end goal and essentially were not necessarily trying to limit ourselves to <hes> political revolutions the way that let's say communists would <hes> because more often than not and horribly <hes> <hes> we we are experimenting from the ground up by realizing day to day changes both in the way that we interact with people around us and more importantly the way that money has a positive or negative influence on our lives and there are lots of examples of how it has a negative impact on us but <hes> you've built a really good example probably the best example including including everything that i've seen in terms of community building within the entire ethereal ecosystem that i follow closely of how to build positive economic alternatives and as a result i death. That's i'm glad to hear your story ori- i'm glad to hear of the progress that sarawak's has made and your expansion your ambition and the research that it has produced and <hes> i'm glad to have been able to present it to a large subsection of the crypto currency community <hes> i'm also looking forward to to following up with you and seeing how definitely the exploration goes regarding what kind of technology you're going to be using using <hes> how you plan on integrating a probably any theory of side chain judging by the projects that you were mentioning running <hes> and how you're going to essentially keep keep pushing the <hes> the economic innovations that you've already ready brought forward further and <hes>. I'm also really curious to see how the cryptocurrency community reacts to yes morning to do much more used local currency. Sorry what was the term. You used instead of local currency because i really really likes it. I'll mutual credit mutual credit mutual credit the actual tried it yeah and yeah yeah i mean thanks a lot for reaching out and thanks for the opportunity to share the story and and maybe i really like a feedback so happy to get any sort so that that's fine <hes>. I'm really glad that we met even on the phone on. Hey i go back to sardinia now for a number of years and it's overdue so i'll reach out <hes> i might actually put you you in contact with some of my friends that are they're currently working on similar projects in europe and <hes>. I'll definitely reach out when i come visit in person persson greatly. You'll be my guest pleasures. Thank you toxin. Alcohol toxin jumped out <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> <music> alone among.