The History of Working Drummers pt 2: 1960 - Today with Dr. Matt Brennan
If you like drum history and would like to support the show head over to drum history. Podcast DOT COM click the Patriots link? You can contribute as little as two dollars a month and get some really cool perks now onto the show. Look into the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and we have a return guest today. Mr Matt Brennan from the University of Glasgow Matt. How're you doing great man? Thanks for having me absolutely. So we're we're picking up here. We're doing part two of the history of working drummers Which is going off of your book. Kick it a social history of the drum kit which was recently released. This is Came out in February of twenty twenty. And I'm a big fan of it and I love it man. Good good good work. Congratulations thank you so much. I'm so glad you enjoyed it so in the first part which I recommend people go back and listen to but I don't think this is a thing where you can't listen to part two without hearing part one. I think this can stand on. Its own but I do recommend that people go back and Basically part one is about the turn of the twentieth century up to nineteen sixty. And now today. We're going to pick it up at nine hundred sixty two today so rockstar drummers. All that stuff. We ended with session drummer so Why don't you go ahead and and take it away here and and pick up where we left off? Yeah sure thing then so I guess in part one. We got up to the point where we were talking about Session Drummer Earl Palmer and Hal Blaine who. It's not as though there weren't session drummers who were working before those two figures but Blaine Palmer a very special because they were the among the first drummers to be really be recognized as rhythm and Blues and rock and roll drummers and that's what they were being called him to perform so you had a sort of paradigm shift. I guess in the kind of skills that were being sought after in for instance session drumming situations where you know both Hal Blaine and Earl Palmer were located in Los Angeles at that time. Folks who will Earl Palmer? No of course that he was based for a lot of his career in New Orleans and played on lots of seminal recordings throughout the nineteen forties and nineteen fifties But in the tail end of the nineteen fifties rock and roll becomes. What many people think of that? Time is a temporary fad. And something that's looked upon with with a lot of disdain by other session musicians who who are working in the Los Angeles area at that time and blame and some of his other buddies who include notable figures like Glen Campbell for instance formed this collective called the wrecking crew. The reason for that name is that the other session musicians who were working in the area at that time consistently. We're telling this group that they were going to wreck the business and so they sort of made a name for themselves. Playing this kind of pariah music. This unacceptable music called Rock and roll. That was looked down upon everyone. Thought would kind of fade away except it didn't fade away. Of course. It became ever more influential evermore commercially lucrative. And that's why they ended up playing on so many sessions throughout the nineteen sixties But around that time you also of course have another really important shift in Anglo American musical culture and that is this shift where previously in the nineteen fifties and earlier. You generally have performers recording artists. Who would perform material that was written by someone else? So these were two different kinds of work the role of a song writer on the one hand and the role of the performer on the other. And when we talk about people working in the and our business the artists and repertoire business that is essentially the business of linking those two different spheres of work together linking artists with repertoire that were created separately and then put together by the A in our man usually a man almost always in that curve. Now why why was like? Why did that happen? Why was it less likely that a musician would write their music and go out and perform it? I guess they were seen as two different types of skill sets that require different types of experience. And you'll also of course have to put that into a context. Where often you know songs were being arranged for large bands right So sure following on from the Big Band era if the type of skills that it would take to arrange a twenty piece. Brass section are are different from those that are needed for carbon out a great topline melody or lyric in the nineteen sixties playing in a four piece band. Show so they were. You know for historical reasons. Seen as sort of separate spheres of work specialized work and there wasn't a whole lot of overlap between now that gets dissolved. A little bit when you start thinking of jazz musicians who are composing their own material but the they they weren't really considered part of the the mainstream of the music industry in that time they were you know still outliers and certainly in terms of you know putting songs onto the radio and having commercials successive that scale jazz with with sort of an outlier starts to change of course with rock and roll music. So you people's often talk about rock and roll being this really revolutionary music because it challenged the boundaries between Tense Race Relations in the United States. Because it was a generational difference where teenagers were really picking up on this music and their parents hated it. We could say that it was a transition from listening to music more and alive sphere to a picking up singles on seven inches. Which we have to remember you. Know the seven inch single was invented in nineteen forty eight right so Really you know. Rock and roll is kind of one of the and prior to that rhythm and blues. These are the first jars to really start working around that technological format But I guess where that takes us. Is that band star? Kinnock's smaller and you start to have artists as opposed to say Elvis Presley who actually operates according to that old paradigm. You doesn't write. His own material gets paired with repertoire written by other people right Chuck Berry on the other. Hand and other pioneering artists of that ilk are writing their own material litter. Little Richard will be another one and you know. Sometimes they're working with other people's material sometimes. They're writing their own material. And this is kind of a transitional phase but by the time you get to the early nineteen sixties and you start to have bands like the Beatles and the rolling stones one of the biggest differences that separates them from their predecessors writing their own material. And again you still see that transition happening. Say on the the early Beatles stones albums where they're playing a mix of original songs that they've written and then cover version of heaven tons actors so that is absolutely emblematic of that period in history. It's it's not that they were doing something strange. Performing those cover versions actually performing an entire album of covers was the norm right. It was inserting their own material. That was that mark the change if that Nixon totally. Yeah Yeah So this starts to create a new perception of what musical work is like. In the popular music sphere suddenly musical creativity Starts to be more closely tied to you. Know basically writing an performing euro material and in the nineteen fifties you can be a perfectly credible authentic quote unquote act without writing your own material by the time of the Beatles and stones that sort of ceases to be the case. If you're not reading your material then you'll get tagged as being manufactured or inauthentic or commercialized. Right Gosh and it's interesting to think about the the differences between those those two different modes of making music now. The other key difference from perspective of work of course is that the songwriter has a different revenue stream from the performer. And this is where it really begins to matter for drummers right yeah because in the early nineteen sixties in guitar based bands like the stones and the Beatles. The songwriter was traditionally conceived as being the one who wrote the top line melody and the lyric and the drummer involved in that part of creative work so that they are kind of relegated to the bottom of this new musical hierarchy which is being formed in that time. So you know we can think about where. Drummer sat in terms of the hierarchy of a of a bebop group. You know drummers like Max Roach for instance were recognized as as artists and and of course Max did write some of his own material as well. you know before the Beatles were putting out their albums Max Roach had already put out the freedom now. Suite for instance But with drummers like Charlie Watts and Ringo Starr. They're not writing those top line melodies and lyrics and so that actually matters has has a lot of consequence not only just for their pocketbooks and and WHO's getting remunerated in those bands more than others. It creates an economic hierarchy but it also creates a another hierarchy of status in which they're perceived to be By by critics for instance who are working at that time as being lesser musicians than their bandmates. I mean that goes right back to part one of as we said in the The Musicians Union that drummers which should make they can make two shillings less than the other musicians. And it's just this. Yeah it's all just kind of a connotation of Like I guess you could say the tonal instrument making the top line melody just being the more important thing where it is interesting though because obviously the drummer we get the benefit of just being able to come in and sit down and make everything better. I'm saying that kind of biased as a drummer but we can put the icing on the cake and make everything really really great without spending six days writing the song. But that's just interesting that it continues through this feeling of you know you're just you're the low man on the totem pole. You're just down. Shut up and play your drums. You don't get paid as much well. What's also interesting though is and what people don't often realize with some of these bands. Is that say the Beatles also the rolling stones also the WHO also led Zeppelin you. They had to go through several temporary drummers right before settling on a permanent drummer who becomes the final member of this core lineup. That turns that band into the band that we recognize it today but when you see it from that perspective actually. The work that the is performing is incredibly important. Yeah if you don't find that right drummer. You don't have a successful band right. Those three especially that you just named are legendary. And you can't imagine the Beatles without Ringo Zepplin without Bonham the stones without Charlie Watts who without Keith Moon. It's just not right without them. Yeah and not only that you when people knock Ringo Starr what. They're often forgetting that. You know the Beatles had previously had You Know Pete Best. Also you know if you're going back to the Quarrymen Days Drummers like Colin Hansen and other Liverpool drummers the the Beatles were on this trajectory of a sentence. They started being taken more seriously as a band. They had you know they could have picked any drummer that they wanted to to replace. Pete Best Right. They chose Ringo because he was the best. He's good in in in Liverpool at making that kind of beat and man if you listen to There's an amazing bootleg recording that's made in Hamburg just after Ringo joined the band and it is absolutely like off the wall. It sounds like the ramones almost like your extremely powerful drumming and you can. You can see why they were attracted to to Ringo in the difference that you know you could hear between previous incarnations of that band and then the Beatles with Ringo Different Band right. Yeah and it's a band that probably wouldn't have had that success without Ringo as we're talking about so it's clear that the drummer's doing something extremely important but what they're not doing is writing the melody and top line lyric and therefore they have this weird low status in the hierarchy for do sort of arbitrary criteria and you sort of can see why those criteria like the U. Prioritizing top melody and lyric are arbitrary because they change over the decades if we think about music made in the Twenty First Century Right. Beat makers are highly prioritized rights. You know you go to a beat maker as much as you go to line melodist right. And there's remuneration gets divided up In the songwriting credits that really privileges the beat and how important that is in a contemporary pop song. But that's you know a shift in culture shift in attitude is shifting remuneration and in an IM- perception of what type of musical work matters. That's that's changed between the early nineteen sixties and and now. We're sort getting ahead of ourselves scherf absolutely I do think it's interesting though how you It kind of speaks to the how you can't copyright a drumbeat kind of thing how that puts it all into perspective of we're all but maybe maybe there's a part of that is our amazing drumming community where we all build off of each other and we learn from each other and we are beats kind of evolve after one guy does something and then the next guy does something Whereas if you do that with guitar and Bass or something. It's like okay. You just stole my guitar riff whereas I think yeah you know what? I'm saying where we can just kind of like drums are a little more communal. Where Yeah you can't copyright it but we just grow together and you hear Ringo and you go oh man that's changed the style of drumming for the rest of you know the rest of time albeit. It's not Solos and Keith. Moon Style John Bonham style. But it's it's got its own very special place of of You need to stick out as a drummer with your southbound and your technique and that's how you can you know rise to the top. Yeah but I guess the point in all of that is that it's not as if that's the natural order of things right It could be different but it's not history is sort of unfolded in a in a particular way and it's no accident that the melody top lyric are you being so heavily. Valued in that time because copyright law was written based on the influence of European concert classical tradition at at a moment in history when rhythms and percussion and drums were being derided. And that was a product of you race relations in nineteen th century of European colonial power. And that's that's where those laws get put into place right in the Early Twentieth Century. So it makes sense. The drummers are being marginalized but it's not as if they deserve to be you know there's no right. Yeah so so. We really need to question like why that's the case right. Germs are put in a funny situation. Yeah it's like oh I just said you can't copyright a drumbeat and it's like well why you're absolutely right that it's true. Yeah that you can't but there are. There's a particular set of historical and sociological reasons. For why that's the case and it's not as if like you in the Ten Commandments. Or something know God said and by the way you can't copyright drumbeats right. I'll shut copyright drumbeats. Yeah there are particular reasons for that being the case and to sort of interrogate them and one way of doing that is through historical work. Okay well you got me thinking now I mean but the drums are such A. It's different than having a you know a piano where there's like if you could copyright a drumbeat and then let's say you couldn't play a beat like a regular to four money beat because let's just say. Ringo did it and I don't know who the first one to do it was but let's say Ringo did it wouldn't that that would really change the face of music because it's like art will we're out we're out of beats now we're out of music. History would never have unfolded in the way that it did. And it's it's you know. There are in terms of musical creativity. Certain building blocks which you know there is a. There's a good reason for them to not be enforced by copyright law. You could say the same with certain core progressions so like a you know a five one cadence right like moving from a dominant to the tonic court. If you copyrighted that move you then again. Music history would not be able to unfold as did that has to be something that we can borrow and make freely available in order to To make work interest but this does change over time so I don't know you know we're sort of going in many different ten general direction. Sure Yeah you can take us back on track here so exactly to get back to the nineteen sixties. Let's let's take it back to Ringo. And and how? They're feeling being in these bands for which there are no precedent really in terms of commercial success in terms of groups that are collectively putting out material that they have also written and how that affects the dynamics of those bands as businesses and also as artistic enterprises right. So there's the issue of of getting paid here and that all the publishing is going to for instance Lennon McCartney in case of the Beatles or Richards Jagger on in the case of the stones but also in terms of of art you know. There's a transitional phase in terms of how drummer is being valued for their work. And this is really interesting in the case of Charlie Watts. Actually because Charlie's coming from a jazz background so both Ringo and Charlie so many times in their interviews. They play down their own importance in those bands. Yeah you can go to interview after interview. Where they're saying you know all all I'm doing is just playing the drums. You know the either Lennon. Mccartney Jagger Richards or happened to be whichever band know they're doing all the heavy lifting but in what's he also talks about basically how he sees his skills as a drummer relative to a completely different paradigm which is the Jazz Paradigm Right. And so he's saying not only am I drummer. Who's just there to serve the song which will often say in an interview and the song is something which he sees as being different from something that he's produced even though like for many drummers that Charlie Watts beat. Is You an integral part of the song? Yeah I wouldn't be the same without it But Charlie's also saying you know. I am nothing compared to actual drummers you know like his words Max Roach a Joe Morello New Tony Williams all jazz drummers who who wants repeatedly heaps praise on And so he's he's really doing himself a disservice but like if that were actually true then you wouldn't have similarly virtuosic drummers in a in a pop sphere in later decades like Jeff Karo or or Jim feltner saying actually no not. Anybody can can do what Charlie Watts does right. Jeffer- On on record saying like you know. If he sat down and played with stones he'd be trying to play like Charlie Watts right. So how do you square that? I think part of that is because watts doesn't see himself fitting the Rockstar? Paradigm Right. You Know He. His background is in jazz and he sort of evaluating his own work within a band based on jazz criteria. But you know maybe if you judge watts and his recordings by by the criteria which he seems to judge himself which you know the kind of jazz model. So he's not a Max Roach. He's not playing that sort of music. So actually those criteria sort of inappropriate. On what exactly value which doesn't make sense it doesn't fit yeah his his contribution to To rock drumming culture is undeniably monumental. Right yeah and the same thing with Ringo right. They say templates which generations of drummers then go onto to imitate age and you can say the same with these other founding figures in rock drumming culture. I you to others to That have to be mentioned are Keith Moon and John Bonham Of course moon what. What's interesting about all those figures is? Actually you know although we see them as being at the beginning of a history all of them. We're listening to Gene Krupa. Yeah you know There's a wonderful moment when Ginger Baker's recalling his career another one of these. You know handful of canonical rock drummer in the nineteen sixties when he talks about him and moon deciding that they want to get a drum kit with a double bass drum setup and you would think they may be them pushing into Playing ever larger venues with their bands you needing to fill up the stage and sort of having this innovation in terms of you know rock spectacle in arena rock but actually according to Baker. This idea comes from them. Watching Duke Ellington in London the nineteen sixties. Yeah for sure man. So Ginger Baker said that both he and Keith Moon where to Duke Ellington concert with Sam woodyard playing drum kit and and this would have been like sixty five or sixty six and immediately both of them are like we gotta go out of your trump right it. It's interesting because like you see Louis. Belsen playing the Double Bass Kit and all these all this stuff and it's You wouldn't think of that influence translating over to like Keith. Moon Ginger Baker. Like you're saying but it's it's it's all jazz it's awesome. Yeah a hundred percent and the same goes for showmanship elements you know the flashy virtuosity of Gene Krupa. Kind of had to be there before John doing their thing. And you know both of them in interviews you know credit KROUPA as like a really key influence when they were growing up. Yeah of course like who else would be looking to write down buddy. Rich's another key figure in terms of showmanship and virtuosity but you. There weren't rock drummers doing that so of course they're all looking back to two jazz players but at the same time that the the work of of being a drummer behind the kit is well at the same time having debts to the past. It is changing right. Yeah so there I think you know by by the late nineteen sixties and especially when you start moving into into hard rock you the the role of of Iraq. Germany really starts to take shape in a way which is quite different from what's come before Part of that comes with you. Know for instance power and aggression but then there are also other aspects to virtuosity. Which do hearken back you know where. There is a link to be made between Between the jazz world end and Brock but not every drummer is you know. Needs to embody virtuosity in order to be a great rock drummer. Some do Particularly in you know as we start moving towards Progressive Rock and you have your your bill. Bradford's in your call Palmer's on the rest while others are valued for their they're sort of primal or animalistic showmanship. You know Keith Keith. Moon comes to mind. He's he's sort of one off on the one hand you could call his virtuosic but on on the other hand you know. Well it's interesting. He he never claimed to To want to be a sort of master technician. He always talked about how he would look towards guitar players. Actually and he'd WanNa Play Guitar riffs on the Drum Kit. That's himself doing. Yeah Yeah So. You don't hear that so much when you're looking at interviews with jazz drummers from the nineteen fifties a different way of thinking about what it means to be playing that instrument. Yeah and I interested to how you say like looking at this. How you have Charlie Watts on Ringo? And they're kind of the early post jazz rock guys who are paving their way their drum sets looked very much like jazz drum sets small four peace arrived crash. Hi Hats but then you get into the next phase. Let's say Keith. Moon with the Double Bass and And I always think of like like Rufus Jones who is with count basie. He was double Bass. You get these guys so there's still polling that oh Didn't like I can do that. I can get double Bass Kit. But then the guy's after that the mega drummers the big drum sets are are then building off of the Keith Moon Stat and stuff so it seems like like you said things are getting more aggressive and bigger so you get into the seventies more giant drum sets that there's definitely an exhibition element to To the drummer's of the nineteen seventies. Yeah and that's also because the size of venues that these drummers playing increases dramatically over that time so it was very rare for jazz gigs to take place in venues the size of arenas let alone stadiums short but that becomes the norm for the biggest rock bands of the nineteen seventies. And so suddenly you're having to reach people that are you know ten. Maybe twenty thousand seats back right really. How how do you connect with those people? Well stickle and size of you know things like the drum kit. There's it doesn't work for guitarists right. You can't suddenly like you say okay. You have your double neck guitars but you. Can't you know quadruple the size of a guitar? And you know the Fret Board on unless you're in bishopric if you're in cheap trick fifteen. This is true but it becomes impractical. Let's face it. You're right though in a funny a cool note on that is how everyone else is getting bigger but Charlie and Ringo remained the same with their drum sets like you could be in the biggest arena in the world. And you've got Charlie their plane gretch kit with you know you flip symbols and he's playing a small drums set so. I think that goes to show those guys how they're just like we're going to do what we're GonNa do but but you're absolutely right because there's there's obviously you got the guys who are playing you. Just they're so rounded and I do think. Fifty sixty percent of that is just a spectacle. Yeah for sure. It's also you a form of competition one upsmanship. Well doing something which hasn't been done before. Trying to outdo you The show or spectacle of of other competing bands concerts. I suppose. Yeah but that's you know we're we're talking about rock music quite a lot. You know there. There are other styles of music. Were you think about the that that maybe have interesting insights into into what being a professional drummer was like in those days and Clyde stubblefield drummers of James Brown Jabo starks come to mind as a as a different sort of model especially when we start going back to that discussion that we were having about Where the drummer you know? Has Their place creatively in terms of songwriting in terms of authorship one thing that was really interesting when I was researching James Brown. And and his drummers was that I hadn't realized that by the mid nineteen sixties he typically employed between three and five drummers at any one time and according to interviews with some of those drummers the reason why is that Brown was interested in looking for unique beats and and unique performance style so he could tell on the one hand that there was something kind of close to the originality that we might attribute in the nineteen sixties to a really unique melody or lyric. The that that was also a feature of drumbeats as well. This comes back to like you know. Well why can't you copyright you for instance the drumbeat from from funky drummer which Clyde stubblefield could make an easy argument that that's like a composition in its own right and yet the credit of you know of any James Brown hit goes one hundred percent to to James Brown a very occasionally to one of his horn players? But never the drummer crucially. Now it's interesting. You know you have these different models of you know drummers either receiving a certain kind of credit you either for being you know an unprecedentedly. Powerful Drummer virtuosic drummer or exhibitions drummer but rarely do drummer get that recognition for contributions to to the song to composition to creating the artistic aesthetic of of those bands. At least in that time. You know things have changed a lot and we now sort of see the work of those drummers in a completely different light in the twenty century yeah they they now get. I think the tables have turned in and they're getting the recognition which was of denied to them for so long. But certainly you know in the nineteen seventies. It's interesting you think on on the one. Hand like to have been Keith. Moon or to have been John. Bonham must've been on top of the world rights. You were acknowledged as these incredible musicians playing these incredible pioneering bands. But you know when you read interviews with with those drummers they one of the reasons why they had huge amounts of trouble with substance abuse guess was due to low self esteem self destructive. Tendencies you at at being relegated to this sort of You know low status figure in these extremely famous bands right well and you just real. You read my mind like this. Seems like the era of and those two guys Keith Moon and John Bonham. Which both had they died way too young. You are a rock star. I don't know if there's I feel like they are like the The blueprint of what people think of when they think of a star with a capital are. It's like these guys are in. And it's not good but taking horse tranquilizers or whatever and passing out on your drums so they they went big and maybe that's because they are then on posters and kids rooms and they are seen more as these giant rockstars at. You're like so it's interesting what you're saying about low self esteem of. I'm not to page. I'm not the guy writings. I'm not Robert Plant which is name. That's and that's not me theorizing it. You know that's them on record in interview you know end in memoirs and biographies that have been written about them. You know that that really comes through and it's yeah it's it's incredibly tragic but they are sort of forced to live up to these particular stereotypes which were being formed around them and part of that is in a way like not taking the work that they did seriously right as opposed to the work that they're bandmates it. Yeah so to think too. They were both thirty. Two years old when they died is unbelievable to think about being so young. I mean you're thirty two years old. You're you're still. I mean you're barely an adult at that point really. It's just like to have lived and made such a giant contribution to the world of drumming and just disappeared so quickly is it's such a shame. Yeah I mean and and clearly. Their deaths were the result of of complicated circumstances. Yes you can't attribute it to to one single factor. But it's also it's undeniable that that self destructive substance abuse was was in both cases fueled at least in part by by feelings of inadequacy that were stemming from a belief that their bandmates were seen as the real artists will. They were just the drummer in that band and had to fulfil a certain a certain role within that. Yeah which was sort of impossible to live up to now. Get IT KINDA. Back to the working drummers theme that we have going on here. Is there any comment or any? Is there any information about how They would have been paid less. They would've been seen like Robert. Plant is probably making more money than John Bonham. Even though you know you see the song remains the same. And he's racing cars and doing you know. He has a nice big house and stuff but in that maybe he may be an extreme example. Because he's John Bonham but were they still like drummers general at that point I'm sure they were still probably paid less and didn't get writing credits as you're saying but but financially probably not covered as much as you know Mick Jagger and Keith Richards right yeah well. I think that the the key thing is that they're separate revenues revenue stream publishing rights versus Bam profit. So there wasn't a sort of set model for any of these bands you. The band's management in any of these cases with set up legal agreements between the different members of the band. Look at the different revenue streams say from live performance on the one hand record sales on the other merchandise or songwriting and then divvy prophets up accordingly but and it's a it's difficult to make generalizations about like you know how how drummers fared across the board because those agreements were there wasn't a standard set of agreements in terms of how to how to share profits so famously in In some bands from the nineteen eighties onwards like you to and you to Rem Ban Prophets were were divided equally. But when I'm when I'm trying to Make an argument about I. Guess in terms of songwriting is that that sort of agreement had to be made deliberately to counter a built in inequality. Yeah Yeah that's ingrained in. How songwriting credit and copyright traditionally worked I don't know if any drummers who are in bands that are listening to this will encounter similar situation to To myself but I know when I was playing in a band and we were first registering our songs with the British equivalent of of ace gap. And be a lie. And you dividing up which songwriting credits went. Where we asked for advice on this and the advice that we were given by professional working for one of these royalty collection agencies. Was You know whoever writes the melody and the top line? Nick is the songwriter right. Yeah and many lawsuits famously. Deal with the the drummer being Basically getting the short end of the stick on these types of agreements So if you move on into for instance the nineteen eighties. There's a very famous and well documented case between Mike Joyce Drummer for the Smiths and Morrissey Marr. Where he sues them for for profits that the that the band was making and at the time the the profit split between the four members of the smiths were forty percent for more c forty percent for Johnny Marr. Ten percent for Roy Moore on Bass and ten percent for for Joyce on drums. You know. That's not a prophet split that we can say all bands operated like that but it wouldn't have been unusual. Yeah sure right and so of Joyce then hands to come back at the end of the nineteen eighties and this is completely different from From songwriting splits right and it wasn't claiming a lawsuit against songwriting credits. He was he was talking about profit. Split of the band And so he takes a more. Marta Cortin and Morsi famously shows up in court testifying that in terms of the smiths output Joyce and Rourke on Drums and bass were just session. Musicians at the famous quote was that was that they were as replaceable as the parts of a lawnmower. Oh my God yeah come on. That's not but this. But despite that testimony the judge ruled in favor of Joyce good yeah recognizing that that was like an inaccurate account by Morrissey Morsi who he also described as being And I think this is a quote truculent and unreliable so you. I think that that case is illustrative of how it worked for a lot of drummers playing in bands in the nineteen seventy s and nineteen eighty s There there were basically mechanisms in the system of remunerating musicians for their work. That that went against the the favor of drummers in a lot of cases gosh well well I think and we'll move forward here because we have we have still you know fifty years ago or forty years ago but I think it's worth noting to and I've talked about it a lot. We've talked about a lot in different episodes but about how Ringo and let's say Charlie. But really ringo made drumming extremely popular with young kids. And then that may Ludwig blow up. And I think the same can be said about John Bonham. Guys were then. As far as gear goes were becoming superstars in the world of drummers as premier. You think of Keith Moon. So yeah they drove the growth of the drum kit manufacturing industry yes and the maiden Japan market basically started. Because they said. Oh my God. We need to create these these off. Brand Ludwig and expand on that so global expansion with drummers thanks to Ringo and everyone else Charlie Keith. Everyone yeah one hundred percent. There's definitely accounts from Ludwig but also interesting like you manufacturing companies the Ringo Never went close to gretch saying that basically after nineteen sixty four in that appearance on the television show they had to double production or triple production and keep their factories open. Twenty four hours a night to to meet demand and with all of that demand and companies. Not being able to expand quickly enough. It did open this gap in the market for new companies coming from Japan in particular like parole like Tom like Yamaha exactly By the end of the nineteen sixties to to start creating drums to to meet that growing demand An interesting like new creating their own of innovations in the process. Right when we think about Those classic Yamaha Recording Custom Kits. With this you know beautiful black lacquer finish right you that absolutely stems from Yamaha having their previous history and making upright pianos. Yeah wow that's interesting. Yeah Yeah and so. They have all these. You know interesting. Innovative manufacturing techniques. That were being used. You know for for other instruments that then starting to to drums and in the case of you know hardware even though say John Bonham for instance never played Tama drums. You know his impact both literal and metaphorical on and on drumming as performance. And the you know the the heaviness of of rock drumming that kind of developed from the beginning of the nineteen seventies onwards leads manufacturers like Tampa to invent double bracing from their stands When you look at the stands that John Bonham is playing at the end of nineteen sixties. Like it's amazing that they withstood. You know a single hit little things. Yes but you know the shape of the drum kit you you could say the shape and design of a drum. Kit is driven by the popularity of these rock drummers coming of nineteen sixties leads to new manufacturers coming up who are then trying to like You create a U. S. p. themselves through design innovation and that really dramatically affects the development and the design of the drum kit as as an instrument. But it's interesting thinking one sphere of work playing the drums. You having this really tangible impact and relationship on another sphere of industry manufacturing and selling drums as instruments. They're all related. Yeah which I mean again. I was born in Nineteen Ninety John. Bonham heavily influenced me as a kid. You know and Azure. I mean. He died ten years earlier than that. Which isn't that far but like it. His his his impact still huge today. So yeah on gear and everything but Okay absolutely so last time we ran out of time and we had to do apart to so to avoid a part three. Let's let's move forward here. So we're in the seventies. Let's finish up to seventy s getting to the eighties. And then and then push on through. So where do we go from there? Well I think that one really important thing that happens to the drummer from the nineteen seventies onwards. We can say is how their work changes in the recording studio and that really is an effective. The invention of multi tracking which of course is a nineteen fifty s invention. But you know really only starts to take shape with from eight track recordings onwards in the in the latter half of the nineteen sixties and suddenly you know whereas you only previously had Amano channel than a stereo channel than than four tracks. The Drum Kit as an instrument is always going to be pushed to the bottom of of the mix essentially in those songs with eight channels and then twenty four and then suddenly forty eight you have suddenly a channel for each component of that drum kit which allows engineers and producers to really start pushing the the sound of of that drum kit up and and do interesting things besides like not just affecting the drum kit but overall basically trying to increase the impact of you know the. Kick Snare Toms and cymbals and so I think like in terms of the development of the drum kit in and working behind the kit a key characteristic of nineteen seventies nineteen eighties. Is this interesting tension between engineers and producers on the one hand and drummers on the other like who has the authority over the performance of the drums and the sound of the drum kit you know a classic example of that maybe being like The debut album of joy division in nineteen seventy nine unknown pleasures. Where the poor drummer Stephen Morris? He just having an incredibly hard time with the producer. Martin Hannett. Who's getting him to record. You know each individual element of the of the kit like so you know do a take yaris playing only the hi hat only the Rack Tom. Right which allows the producer to really manipulate those things and create an incredible record on the one hand. But that's like hell on earth which still happens today. I mean that happens a lot where you do a symbols pass and you know just exactly. A- yeah so that didn't exist right in the sixties now no it becomes increasingly common. Maybe from the tail end of the seventies onwards into the eighties and so on the one hand that's an interesting impact aesthetically but it also has a real impact in terms of what the work of the drummer is right So you know throughout the nineteen eighties you know. The drummer has again. This huge importance in the studio. They're the first instrument to be tracked a often. They're the most complicated instrument to be tracked but at the same time. The drummer has very little autonomy quite often and is being told what to do more directed or or marginalized in other ways by their bandmates by the producers because he can't move forward without getting that really solid drum take and they're often very restricted. The same thing goes for a click track. You know very typical you. Click tracks sort of become increasingly popular through the second half of the seventies and then kind of ubiquitous by the nineteen eighties. Especially when you have like Midi which wishes invented at the early nineteen eighties and suddenly you need to start mapping takes of drums onto sequencers synthesizers. That are programmed to do our peggie. Oser whatever happens to be so but then there was they would not play to a click track which for everyone who's listening. If you don't know a click track is a metronome which can be referred to his plane on the grid and the importance of that would be to then overdubbed later or to mix with MIDI instruments which are perfectly in time because they're a machine If you record something without a metronome it can have a really good feel and kind of sway. But you can't exactly overdubbed drum part again and fix things over a guitar track. That's been recorded without a metronome. Unless you're perfect which is rare so anyway so so before you said. Nineteen sixty s the nineteen sixties. Wasn't really what they didn't record to an. I mean you. Certainly you had metronome there early century venture and you had people recording to something close to a click track but it was usually relegated to the world of film music where people had to sync up soundtracks to a moving picture. Yeah right it wasn't something that was used in pop groups until you know became became more common mid nineteen seventies and also with the advent of drum machines. Yeah which really only start getting used in records by the tail end of nineteen sixties. Probably GonNa drum machine or something like that. The Linn Drum Machine Comes at nineteen seventy nine. Actually so I'm actually thinking in of earlier drum machines being like The rhythm ace or the Maestro King which you can hear on tracks like like sly and the family stone you some of these drum machines in the early nineteen seventies again. Not Very Common. Although you do find these transistor drum machines being used by in the demo process and then kind of being laid down his bed track in the nineteen seventies which drummer might start to to play over top of. So you know that's that starts to happen through through the seventy s but then becomes increasingly common through the nineteen eighties. And of course like who gets lumped with the headphones that have the click track really banging in their ears but the drummer often the other musicians. You don't get that. Click track in their years rights. You know they get the drums. So there's a real kind of subordination depending on how you feel about tracks. I suppose a burden that the drummer has to bear which really really affects their economy as a as a worker as a musician. You through the night. Well let's say the end of the nineteen seventies and then very much so in the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties where it only almost becomes impossible to do a professional studio recording without that. Click track. Yeah Yeah really cool. That's interesting I'd say that like working at a studio I rarely ever unless it's jazz. Do a session where I record a drummer without a click track. And if they don't want I'm I'm I mean. I'm a drummer I. I know that it's not as fun. I know that it's hard especially if you haven't practiced man there is you've never seen and I've been there early on you. It's you don't see someone get as embarrassed as if they're playing and they cannot play to the click. It isn't a very embarrassing situation if you haven't ever practiced it and there's a room full of people and they're like you're speeding up on the phil so that's a tough situation. That's a big. That's a big thing to throw on a drummer So Yeah I'll tell you though. I read this really interesting roundtable between like the very top session drummers of the nineteen eighties so precarious Vinnikova Rick Marotta and some others And this is when like click tracks really becoming more commonplace than they were complaining about these things and they were saying. You'll like we have these clicks in our ears like think about these drummers and their sense of time right clicking in our years you know and and we wanna play a song where were the tempo breeds a little bit. You know where say. There's a course you know you may be do want to lift that up by a few novel. Like we're getting lumped to these click tracks and then and then guitar. You know yelling saying that that we're not sort of moving with the song or not serving the song when actually we're being restricted here. This is like Jeff. Caro saying this. That's the king. There I mean and nowadays you can tempo map and make it a little faster but it still. It's like a and they'll say like and then you get the classic thing of Drummers McMahon to click is off the clicks off dude don't helper. I'll tell you one other thing to make an impact on drummers here and this is you know very related to click tracks and in a way this we have one of our own to blame for this The digital audio workstation obviously is another key change Yeah basically mid-nineteen eighties or still recording mostly to analog desks but by nineteen ninety s pro tools becomes the industry standard. Not many people know that the invention of pro tools can actually be pinned down to to a drummer and his bandmate. Actually run Peter. Gotcha AND EVAN. Brooks were the designers of or the inventors of pro tools and they were students in California. Who played in a band together? Peter Gotcha was a drummer and he was interested in these new drum. Sample trump samplers essentially. There was one called drum you later in the early nineteen eighties where it came with. This pre equipped set of drum sounds and he wanted to expand that so he end his bandmate. Evan Brooks who was an engineer Decided to hack into this drummer later. And make new sound chips where they could upload their own samples and also attach an audio editor that so that they could Edit the audio of these different drum tracks in and kind of expand the creativity the creative possibilities for the drummer well using these new technologies and the company that they created called digit drum by the end of the nineteen eighties. They had switched the name of that company to digit design. Yeah and they were trying to figure out how to edit audio in using some sort of visual display and the result was protocols and that's awesome digitisation. They owned tools forever until avid bottom. Which wasn't that long ago. So man that's really interesting. You could say like you. Basically he developed. It's in terms of the recording studio from the nineteen eighties. To the present day. Come from attempts to shape what? The drummer is doing or shape. The sounds of the drum kit and then other instruments sort of follow suit when these new technologies come into play. Wow you could say that and I do say okay. Cool so click track. We got that going. We're in the studio session drumming his different Electronic drums are samplers and synthesizers. And all this stuff is has happening. So I guess the the other thing to say about this is that we've been talking about the studio quite a bit but this also has ripple effects into the live arena right now so as soon as these new sounds start being created in the recording. Studio drummers are suddenly expected to replicate them live right and so when you have things like that famous Phil Collins Gated reverb Yup that is created it at the in the very early nineteen eighties with Hugh Pat Him. Who was the engineer? Working on those records suddenly you when it comes to performing those in arena tours. The drummer suddenly plane to a click track In live concert setting and their drums are going through effects racks. That are trying to recreate that gated. Reverb sound yeah so like you know the work that happens in. The studio has an impact on on the rest of a working drummers life. You know whether it's in the studio or outside of the studio. Yeah absolutely and just so everyone is on the same page. The gated reverb sound basically. So you have the reverse sound which would be a tale of you know putting it in a room like Bah then you get it and cut it off and that's very much that sound of Like in the air tonight or any of those big huge sounds so gated most of the big pop hits of the nineteen s in the air. Tonight is sort of the classic example. But yes you hear that drum sound you know being in a way like the the easiest way to be able to place a pop recording as saying. Oh Yeah. That's definitely record in the nineteen eighties. Is that drum sound? Yeah and I think it's worth noting that like. That's the era of like power. Toms and super deep huge snare drums. So everything was much bigger the opposite of forty years earlier where it's kind of the bebop tuning jazz sound now. We are big and deep and and so so far cry from from the you know the jazz days but Cool so we're in the eighties which is just an iconic era of drums. In general I I have a or a hat I should say at late. Eighties early nineties. Set that I think I talked about in the last one Where it was just the hard way. It was a Ludwig rocker set. The hardware was not good. I don't know I think this was an era where where things were still getting developed a little bit like like every like you said we're joined playing these tiny stands but I know when I play that set you play for five minutes and the Tom is like facing. The ground has completely lost. Its tensions so things are still getting figured out. Basically yeah and I guess the key difference for for drummers as they move on into save in the nineteen eighties in the nineteen nineties is the creation of organizations and societies that are dedicated to Kinda Co hearing Drumming is a culture and drumming as a form of work as well. So you know we think of a convention like pay sick yeah The Progressive Art Society International Convention. You know as as maybe existing for who knows how long well you know. This is a mid nineteen seventies creation like the Progressive Art. Society is formed in the nineteen sixties. The convention only gets going in the second half of the nineteen seventies and then you drum publications with you know another key sign of of drumming being taken seriously as its own specialized for work magazines like modern drummer. Its first issue is in nineteen seventy seven so like you know these. These types of magazines conferences meet UPS. That really sort of glue together Drumming profession drumming as a culture drumming as a community. These are in the long view in terms of the history of the instrument relatively recent developments but their impact is huge as well right. Yeah Yeah. That's a great point because I mean I guess before that you're kind of just play off by yourself but then you can. I said earlier about you. Can you can build off of other people and and that just goes to show our community and I obviously there's guitar magazines and stuff but Drums have a special connection there. So so things change in the nineties though a little bit right. I mean it's not. It's the end of that Glam Rock era for the working drummer. So your you're your drum set. Seems like it's maybe getting a little bit smaller right. Yeah sure and and you could say. Actually like maybe. The nineties is the beginning of of where Retro Fetishism starts to come into play Jeff right so you nowadays. It's not unusual for us to see drum manufacturers recreating the classic drum kits of yesteryear. You know where vintage artisan or the kind of key marketing points that That that current manufacturers sort of looking looking back to the golden age of drumming maybe that the first hint of that starts to become apparent in the nineteen nineties when Drummer Start Scaling. Back that giant kit moving back to the four piece kit backed basics Which of course is like harkening back to this. Sort of war era from From bieber's up to the classic Neil Ringo Starr Black Oyster Pearl Ludwig Kit. Yeah no that's really interesting. The gear gear wise to think about that 'cause Before that guys are playing the massive set of paroles and the set of Thomas where there's fifteen you know bass drums hanging behind them. That they play they hit once in a concert or something like that and music is obviously becoming a little more. I think they're in the nineties. It gets to be a little more Let's say natural. You know what I mean. It's less of the river. A gated re verbs and all that given river effect goes out of style absolutely. Yeah Yeah Cool. So so now we go to the what you call the globalization of the drum kit production That is basically an argument. I was trying to make. I'm not the first to make it either absolutely indebted to you know previous books that have come out on the drum kit by folk like Jeff Nichols Rob Cook. Many others but saying that essentially we're whereas previously American manufacturers like Ludwig Slinger Lind Gretch. Rogers really lead the way Suddenly by the end of the nineteen sixties you have manufacturers from the US that begin to have an international impact drum kits were were being made in countries outside of the US. You know long before that You know sonars one of the oldest trump drug companies in the world if you take that bacteria before they were called so sonar but you know the family company was founded by guy named Johann Link in eighteen seventy one so wow yeah ages ago But Sonar begins to have a more international impact in the second half in the nineteen sixties as as sort of resuscitate itself in the Post Warrior. Being German manufacturer for obvious reasons than you know that company has to kind of it collapses reforms and rethinks itself in the postwar era. But then also those those East Asian companies that. I was mentioning so parole Tam. Tam Tam Ah-ha Parole Tama. And Yamaha you get into the drum making business at the end of the nineteen sixties Globalization of of drum kit manufacturer. It's really about companies coming from outside the United States but having on the Anglo American popular music scene and drummers being Starting to use those kids. So whether it's billy Kaban Tampa or God using Yamaha These become you really important and influential manufacturers from from nineteen seventies onwards basically. Yeah there is now. The they're seen essentially as equals in every conceivable way to To those older American manufacturers cool while we're getting close to the end of the chapter here so and just again. I want to tell people that we were talking about. Chapter five of Matt's almost four hundred page Amazing Book all about the Drum Kit so If you're like me and like Matt and are a giant drum nerd than You'RE GONNA love this book because it goes into so much more detail than than we are going into. And I think we're going into a lot of a lot of detail so yeah I would highly recommend people and I'm GonNa put a Promo Code in the description so you can get I believe it's thirty percent off the book Yeah that's right if people go to the website Oh up dot com slash academic Because the publisher of the book is Oxford. University press so the website. is up dot com slash academic. And then. If you type in my name Matt Brennan or title of the Book. Kick it a social history of the drum kit and copy than you can enter Promo Code Which is all caps a. f. l. y. g. six then that will automatically take thirty percent off the regular price When ordering from that website it's also available via Amazon or you any online bookstore that you'd want to order it from but the cheapest way to get it is through the O. Up website and using that discount code. Yeah and I mean I think the the twenty nine dollars you can actually get a hard copy version but The paperback is only like twenty nine dollars. Us so that's right. Throw thirty percent on there and I have heard I. I have a copy that I love and I've heard from multiple listeners of the show that they've ordered it and are loving it so amazing. Yeah I really appreciate all you guys and girls out there listening For ordering it and supporting people like Matt. Who's WHO's doing this and Just Fine Matt Online and reach out to him and tell him you like his book and all that good stuff so matt. I think we did it my friend. I think we've just wrapped up part two of our two part. Look at the history of working drummers. Yeah thanks so much for having me on the show I really appreciate it and I. I love what you're doing here with the podcast. Great thank you. It's always a pleasure and enjoy -joy the rest of your day. They're in Scotland. You men take care. Bye-bye podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and Lever View. And let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future until next time. Keep on learning this. Gwynne sound podcast.